137 - Infamous Group Members: The Advice-Giver

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Welcome back, friends. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 137 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Not only am I the president, but I'm also a member of. You got nothing there, huh? That is. It's before your time. It's actually a really famous television commercial. It was a hair club for men that the guy would, you know, he would come on and he was doing his own commercials. Not only am I the president, I'm also a member because he had used hair club for men. So it's been used over and over since then. The idea that just because we're leading in something doesn't mean we're not also needing it, which is really appropriate for today's episode.

Future tie in coming. Today, we're in week three of our information infamous group member series. But first, couple quick things. If you have not subscribed to the podcast, do it. Don't wait any longer. You can find us on all the major platforms. And I don't know if you know this, and we say it really every episode for the last 10 or 15 or so. If you do, give us a review, it helps more people see the podcast and it also really means a lot to us. Also, you can follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. You can follow us earedesirepdmi. And if you like to consume video content, the full episodes are no longer on YouTube. We've stopped doing that for a couple reasons. But we will have video content up from these episodes as well. I know, sad face, it's gonna be okay.

But clips that are easy to share with people that might not want to watch the whole episode. But you could say, hey, here's a great way to introduce some content to you.

You really don't like seeing our faces for 45 minutes. This is for you. Okay. So today to our episode, we're joined by our international men's groups coordinator, Rich Moore. And like I mentioned, we're in week three of our series titled Infamous Group members and the group member we talked about today, the advice giver.

Yeah, I think we are aware how easy this is to do, especially when it's your second, third, fourth time around. You're now leading, you're helping others, and some of the answers that people give, you're like, oh, gosh, let me tell you what to do. So it's easy to fall into that trap. And today I think we just try to discuss what that does to group dynamics, how it can actually limit the pace at which people are able to heal. And really just looking at ourselves to say, why am I doing that? Is it really as altruistic or as helpful as I think, or am I just in love with my own voice? And so you hear us several times in today's episode talk about that idea that, hey, not only am I on staff at Pure Desire, but I struggle with this too. And I've got to learn some of these same lessons myself. And those are always the best episodes, I think.

And most of it is me sharing that. It's me that struggles with advice giving. So enjoy me talking about how bad I am at being the advice giver.

It was a group effort.

Enjoy the episode. Rich, welcome back.

Always glad to be here.

We're glad to have you, even though you do sit only really, it's probably 50ft away from both of us. Sometimes it's, you know, you get lost in the email and the inbox. And so it's always nice to have you back in.

So, yeah, it's nice to have the corner where I can kind of hide out.

That's right. So many of you listening or watching or seeing any of this, have heard of or experienced a pure desire group. Whether it's online at a local church, Pure desire groups continue to meet weekly, really, as people pursue healing from the effects of sexual brokenness, both for those struggling and for those who have betrayal. And as we've heard, we've seen, and each of us have experienced ourselves as members or leaders, there tend to be difficult or as we're calling them, infamous group members. And so today we're going to talk about another infamous group member, the advice giver. Now, let's just start with this a little bit. You've been leading groups. You've been in groups. You've been leading groups for how long?

24 years now.

Okay.

Yikes.

Yeah. So when I was eight, you started leading groups.

That's exciting.

The whole point, right, of these groups is to get people into community, in a place and an atmosphere with a roadmap that gets them to healing. Right. And so, because that is what we're after, healing from addiction and betrayal. Why is it bad to give advice? If the whole point is helping these people and advice is usually trying to help someone, why is it a bad thing to give advice in a Pure desire group?

You know, so when I saw this episode come out, I was kind of excited because I don't think. To be honest, I don't think we've ever, in 20 years have had a really good answer. It's just like, we're just not. Advice gives. And my go to. And my go to answer for so many years.

Everyone stops listening to the episode now.

No, and I. I mean, it was. It was one. We don't give advice because we're not counselors or teachers, anything like that. So in looking at that question, I was like, well, why wouldn't I want to give advice? Well, why I wouldn't want to give advice because honestly, if I would have listened to my coaches, my teachers, everybody who tried to give me advice growing up, I probably wouldn't have ended up in a peer desire group. The short answer, but, yeah, we're not counselors, we're not teachers. I think the best quote, advice, non. Advice that we could give is just by being real and sharing our own stuff.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I think when you give advice, and I think that's probably in another question down. Down the road, but I think when you give advice, you tend to make yourself look like, oh, I have it all together, and 25 years, I'm still working on it, and.

Right.

I don't have it all together. So, you know, it's just something that we don't do.

Yeah. I think there are a lot of pursuits that we have in life where the experience that people have is very similar. Like, if you're trying to tell someone how to get to Powell's Books in downtown Portland, there are really a couple of routes. Like, you're giving it a vote. Here's. I think the best way and based on traffic and it's pretty consistent. But the journey that we're on towards sexual health and purity and relationship growth is so different for every person. I mean, yes, there are some kind of established principles. There's things you can look for. And that's why we have the workbook. Because in the workbook are those principles and things we can really all kind of rely on and walk through. But when we start to give advice, we are making an assumption that your journey will look like my journey and that person may be in a totally different place. And I've heard advice given that knowing both people's backgrounds, I'm like, I know why that works for you, but I also know why that's really bad advice for them because of where they're at in their marriage or the kind of things that trigger them, or. So I think that's just the issue that we have to be aware of is my journey and your journey are not going to look the same. Sure, there will be similarities, there might be things that we do have in common, but we don't want to assume that and start giving advice. And the other thing that comes to mind is just as soon as I'm sharing and really opening up, that's about as vulnerable a place as a person is going to be. Like, here's my dark secrets or here's the junk in my relationship, or here's what's happened that's hurt me and it's, it's very raw. And it's like someone just, you know, trampling in there with the hydrogen peroxide and dumping it on the wound. Like, well, here's what'll fix you. I know what to do about that. And she's like, it can really sting, it can burn. And even if the advice is good, just like hydrogen peroxide, if it hurts and stings, I'm not going to want to do that again. So none of us really like to be fixed. None of us like to be told what to do. And so when we're at that really raw, vulnerable, open place, we need to be really respectful of other people and thoughtful about how am I going to respond in a way that encourages them to stay open, to stay raw when it's painful, and not just try to fix them, which actually will shut down a lot of future sharing.

A few things came to mind for me separate from what you guys are saying or in addition to it. Ashley Jamison, who's on staff, she tells the story of, of a group member that was giving advice to somebody and was using a verse to give advice, not knowing that actually that person was abused by their parents or by someone in their family of origin with that verse in order to manipulate them to do something. And so you're just literally stacking on trauma by giving advice to this person. But you don't realize that. And so I think that not giving advice in group protects you from that. A couple other things, and maybe this is a little bit off of what you were saying, a little bit of someone telling you what to do. It's really easy for me to use it as an excuse or a cop out. If I try what you told me and it doesn't work, then it's like, okay, cool, it was just your faulty advice. That's the reason why I'm acting out or not growing in health. And the whole idea is for self actualization or realization in group for you to figure it out, the self knowledge of why I'm doing what I'm doing. And so if I'm just talking at you and telling you what you're doing, that doesn't help you figure out on your own what's going on. And then I just, I feel like. I just feel like one of the reasons. And I'm terrible at this because I tend to be the advice giver. And so where you might be excited for this episode, I'm crap.

Here we go. Yeah, Charles, like, I need to work on some stuff. What can we do podcasts on?

I've heard Ashley say the same thing I'll throw under the bus with me, that I tend to be all four of these types of infamous group members from time to time. But I think that idea of assuming that I have it together, why do I think I have the authority to try to help someone solve their problem when I'm here to solve my own? And so that idea of. And that's kind of going off what you're saying. I'm not thinking that my plan is going to work for you because I got to figure out my own plan on my own.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There can be a little bit of arrogance in our advice giving of, oh, I've got it figured out. And like you were saying, Rich, we, we almost take that role of counsel. So if we recognize that advice giving is bad. And as we shared those answers, hopefully listeners can see, okay, I see why that's an issue in group, but why do we still tend to do that? I think it's in our nature often to give advice. So even if we know it's unhealthy, why do we still tend to do that?

I give you two reasons why I do it. The first is I tend to be uncomfortable with the silence that when someone is sharing or posing a question that maybe even is rhetorical, but is really just them trying to process out loud, the silence kicks in and it's like.

Wait a minute, no one's talking.

This is bad. This is bad. Assuming that silence is bad. And it's not like silence really, there's a soberness to it in that moment. And so I think sometimes I just want to hurry out of the silence and get into something. And then also the other reason is, and this is, this is my own conviction on why we struggle as specifically as believers helping people with their process or with their problems or their struggles is we're actually really uncomfortable with other people's suffering. And so when we give advice, what we're doing is we're actually trying to counteract that, basically saying, if you could hurry up and just get over it, then I could feel more comfortable and less uncomfortable that you're struggling. And so it's actually our unwillingness to sit in with that person what's going on in their life or in their process or struggle. It's my unwillingness to do that that pushes me to be like, well, here, like, this is what worked for me. Maybe this will, you know. And basically what I'm telling them is, I know that you're suffering, but for my sake, we just hurry up and get over it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I, I've seen really bad. I do.

Like, it's a really good observation.

Yeah, I've seen that too. And I think what, what happens is, is for the guy who is in that awkward place of like, the silence or whatever, so when guys are sharing, then the advice giver sometimes will use that as an opportunity to take the spotlight off of him so he doesn't necessarily have to go as deep in his answer because he may answer or he may. I may give you advice on the same question that I'm about to answer.

Right.

But because I.

It's a deflection.

Yeah. So now I'm just going to say I'm not going to read my answer. I'm going to kind of rabbit trail the answer a little bit because you kind of struck a chord and it's like, yeah, no, I think you should do it this way. Kind of like you said, it's like, this is how I did it, but interesting. Yeah, it's just a way of. Yeah, deflection is a good word. It takes a spotlight off. And last thing guys want to do is, you know, one. Take advice from anybody.

Right.

So when they. And I think the fear behind that is. And I was going to say that in the last question is what happens is if, even if a guy's doing good, we share some advice that's really good, sound advice for those of us in sports or whatever that growing up in sports was like, you can have a great game and score 25 points, and then you have a coach or a parent or somebody say, well, you could have. You had a chance. You could have scored another 10 points if you would have done it this way.

Right.

So what I'm doing is not good enough.

Right.

You're diminishing. You're diminishing what they're doing.

I think I was trying to score that many points.

Yeah, I think too, just to. Just to make sure. People understand it's not just guys who are struggling or women are struggling. It's also in the betrayal groups that this could be an issue that anybody struggles with in group.

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that we struggle with, particularly in addiction and addiction of any kind, is thinking or believing that we're healthier than we really are. In fact, that's part of why a lot of us have ended up in an addiction. Because we thought we could handle something when we couldn't. We thought we were okay with a smartphone or that we could be in hotel rooms by ourselves or, you know, whatever situation we put ourselves in. We kind of had this self delusion of, I'm healthy enough, I'm strong enough, I'll make the right decisions. And then we didn't and ended up in a bad place. And so in group, when we're giving advice, sometimes it's out of that place where we like to be the expert or we like to think we've got it together. We like to feel like we have answers and. But really we're not as far along as we think we are. And so we're kind of giving advice because we feel good or feel like we have the answer, when really it'd be better for us to keep listening and be humble and say, I'm not real sure. What have you learned? And the other thing that comes to mind, why we tend to give advice, I think we have a hard time trusting the process, especially if we're a few months into recovery. And this is especially maybe on the betrayal side, but also the addiction side, where we have seen some growth and we have seen some change. There will be things that are early on in other people's stories that seem obvious to us. It's like, well, don't do that, or just do this. And we maybe forget that when we first learned it, it wasn't that easy. When we first encountered it, we had to struggle, we had to wrestle, we had to arrive at a conclusion ourselves. And so if we just become the advice giver and say, oh, it's easy, just do this, we're almost robbing someone of the experience they can have by learning it themselves, by. By going through a process of discovering, and that's in the group guidelines as well, about that, letting people discover their own answers, letting them figure out what works. And I do think the group is there to create a safe place, to create some guidance. And so we don't want, by doing this episode to make people fearful of saying anything. I mean, I do think there are ways and we're going to get to it that in a helpful way. We can bring up ideas, we can get the group to be kind of aware of something and talk about it. But a lot of it's just our posture of thinking, I'm the expert, I can fix you. Here's the way to do it versus that humility of here's something that's worked for me and just staying in that place of trusting the process and that everyone arrives at answers at their own pace and that's okay.

Yeah, Nick, you know, we see it a lot so many times that guys want to say something and they feel like they have to say something. Kind of like you said, there's that silence and it's like, I think there's health in the silence and not always butting in and saying something. So when we get to that point, how do you identify if someone is giving advice or just making a helpful comment?

Yeah, a couple things that came to mind as I thought about this is to pay attention to the pronouns they're using. If the pronouns are all about you, that's an issue like, well, here's what you need to do and if you would do this and if you only and that immediately is going to put the person on the defense, they're going to feel attacked. And it's, it's really deflecting away from me versus if someone is sharing with a lot of I and personal pronouns, well, here's what I have done. Here's something that's worked for me. Here's a suggestion I'd like to make. The second thing that came to mind is just being aware of their own self awareness. I think a lack of self awareness is often what makes us the advice giver because we don't realize how we're making someone feel or we're not even thoughtful of do they want to hear this? So I think looking for ways that we can say, would you mind if I shared a personal example? Or are you feeling open to some input of what's worked in my story? And even asking some questions like that shows a person's self awareness versus if a guy or gal just jumps right in and all of a sudden they're telling someone what to do. There you see that lack of self awareness. And the final thing that comes to mind for me of the difference is you will tend to in the group, you'll be aware of people's stories. And when someone is maybe giving advice beyond where they're at in their own story, that's where I get a little red flag, like when someone's starting to talk about how to avoid relapse, but you know, they've relapsed twice in the last month. There's kind of this disconnect of, are you listening to your own advice? Are you aware of you're making something sound easy that we all know you're not doing? So there are times I think a group has to, in a loving, gracious way, say, you know, are you actually doing the things you're telling others to do? And that may not even be something you can do in group. That might be an after group or outside of group kind of conversation, because that can put someone really on the spot. But that's what I look for is like, are they sharing kind of really out outside of what they've even experienced themselves?

Yeah. And I think too with that, the difference I see is if someone is asking your opinion in group, like, and I've done that. I've been, this is kind of what's going on, guys. What do you think? Then there is your opportunity to speak into it because the door has been opened for you rather than you just kicking it in and walking into the house. It's like, if I'm asking you, this is so. This is something that triggered me this week. I really don't know why. What do you guys think? You guys have heard my story. What do you guys think? And someone's like, oh, well, I remember last week you shared this. That seems to be connected there. That's what I think. Or that's something that maybe I've experienced. Going off of sharing their own experience. And it connects dots for me. And that's great. So I think that that's like the first thing and then really stemming off of what you're saying. Nick, I think I do this too. I have to practice. There's a difference between telling or talking and asking questions. If I'm asking a question to try to draw out more of your response or more of your process, that I think is really a helpful comment or question rather than giving advice. Because then at that point, I'm trying to help you figure out what's going on in you rather than me telling you what's going on in your. You.

Yeah, well, we have to set that tone early on in group. Like from the day one, when we go through group guidelines in the group.

In the group text, before you even get to group. Yeah.

You know, and not only do we have to set that tone just by going through the material or the intro and talking about those pieces. But we as leaders, we have to model that and then especially as seasoned leaders. Because when you've been leading for a long time.

Since I was eight.

Right, since you were eight.

You can easily get into the, the advice.

Oh, I've heard this before. So this is what worked. Yeah.

So I like what, what you said, Nick, about the eyes, using the eyes. And that's, I think for me has been real important in leading and not being. Feel like I have to have it all together as a leader. I can go in there and be vulnerable 24 years into this and still have issues in other, you know, in other areas, obviously. But, but to be able to use the eyes and then when you, when a leader does that, it almost kind of. I mean, I don't have a lot, I haven't had a lot of advice givers. And when we've had, when I've had those in groups, it's great when the other group members say, well, like you said, well, you're in relapse. So I. That's obviously not working. So I haven't had to really deal with a lot of that.

Yeah.

But I think it really has to be the leader setting the tone early. And we've talked about that before, but, you know, it's the last thing we want to do is give advice and then have that guy not show up anymore or gal not show up anymore.

And to what you're saying, I've seen fruit from when you are vulnerable and you, you maybe are further down the road a little bit than some people who are in your group and you're sharing your process in still you being vulnerable. That piques questions from people. Like, that's interesting. How do you make those, how do you connect those dots or how do you know that about your past or that it was tied to this specific event or whatever. I think that in vulnerability, it actually opens people up for more opportunities to ask questions which then you can step in and give your perspective. Yep. Yeah. Okay. If we are a group leader and we notice that somebody. Or facilitator. Yes. Bob and Rebecca Vandermeer, patent pending. Right. Okay. So if we are a group leader, facilitator, the person who has organized the group to meet together every week, how do we. I mean, I think it's pretty easy to identify the advice giver. Right. It's like we all probably. If you're in a group right now, you know who it is. And if you don't know who it is, it's you. Right. What do we do as a group leader? If we have an advice giver in.

The group, we can't throw anything at them. So you don't want to do that.

Especially if it's softer. Yeah, yeah. Like a nerf bullet.

Yeah. I would handle the outsider group. You know, talk to them like you said, online group. You just pull them outside a group, have the conversation with them, maybe just say, this is why we don't do this. And then if it continues on, you know, then I. What I've done before is use that as a teaching moment for the whole group. And then we'll just take some time to go back over the commitment or the covenant to contend the memo of understanding. Go through that and the group guidelines and really emphasize why we have these here and what they're there for. But I won't address it, quote, in group. If it's the one or two people, I'll usually address that outside of group because then it just. They may not even know and realize that they're doing it and chances are they're not because they don't want to engage in that level.

I think that's the reality that if you see that it's happening, you need to address it, particularly if it impacted the person that was sharing, because you'll probably pick up on that. You'll see someone kind of starting to shut down or disengage or they kind of get a glassy eyed look or, you know, you see something cross their face, you're like, whoa. And so I think you need to follow up on both sides. You know, for the one person who's the advice giver, say, I don't know if you realized it, but it seemed like when you, you know, jumped in after Tony shared his faster scale, he kind of shut down after that. I think you, you maybe hurt him a little bit by the way you did that. And. But I would also, as the leader, want to follow up with Tony and say, hey, Tony, it seemed like after you shared that, you know, Gary came on really strong and were you okay with that or how are you doing? Like, well, it kind of pissed me off and I was angry and like, okay, wow, let's deal with that. And so then I'm gonna make sure to start to remove myself from that triangle that I'll try to say, hey, Tony, I really feel like you need to follow up personally with Gary and just let him know that you're sorry because that did hurt his feelings. And so in some ways that's our role as the group facilitator leader, trainer is just to see those situations and don't just sweep them under the rug and be like, ah, no big deal. That's what Gary does. That's he's that big advice giver. But really to make Gary aware that he's doing that and it actually impacted someone. So I think you've got to address those situations when they come up. And as you were saying, Rich, it'll often happen early in the group as people are kind of navigating relationships and getting to know each other. And if you ignore it or dismiss it, it'll probably keep happening and you likely will lose a group member that'll just feel like, I don't really feel safe and so they'll move on from that environment. But the other thing I would encourage is if you're the group leader or facilitator, really encourage the opposite. So something I've tried to do when we were going around with our group check in or faster scales is to say, hey, just a reminder, you know, as we're sharing, we're being pretty vulnerable here and we don't want to be giving advice as soon as someone's done, but let's be looking for good questions to ask. And I'll even invite people. Like, part of the reason I'm in this group is because I know I have blind spots and I want you guys to really listen and call me out for my stuff. Like, if you feel like I'm sugarcoating something, ask me. If you feel like I'm kind of avoiding being real honest about a piece, ask me. Like, I want you to see what I'm not seeing. And when I do that for myself and for the group, then I think we all kind of put on that, that sleuth hat and we're listening better because, like, well, what. How I might actually be able to help Trevor because as he shares, I'm going to hear something in a way he didn't hear even when he wrote it. And if I say, hey, do you mind if I ask a question, Trevor? And you say, well, sure. And I say, you know, when you said you were in anxiety, I noticed this and you know, has this occurred to you? And so now I'm asking about what I've noticed and it might be something that you're like, not really or whatever, but maybe it's something you're like, wow, I've never. That hadn't occurred to me. And it really is one of the ways we help each other. So if what's motivating you as the advice giver is you want to help people realize that your questions in the appropriate places will probably help someone more than your advice does.

I think what you guys are both talking about is creating safety inside the group. And I think that when you do have those conversations with those group members, I think it's important to emphasize the negative impact and maybe, you know, switch the tables a little bit and say, so Tony, if Gary came or if, you know, we're talking to Gary. Right. I'm trying to keep the name straight from who you are. Basically it's all hypothetical. If you're the person, make up your own name. Right? That's right. Okay. But basically if there's a person in your group who's giving advice, explain to them what it would look like if it were opposite. If you were sharing this and someone jumped in and gave you advice, how would that make you feel in the moment? And basically just show them, help them realize the effects or really the lack of safety that that would create for them in the group. And so I think that it's just communicating safety and then communicating specifically so that they understand. Alright, let's take a quick break and we're gonna talk about accountability software. Just like Batman's utility belt, we all need tools to help us create sobriety and maintain health over the long haul. One of the first and simplest tools to implement is accountability software.

Yeah, absolutely. One of the challenges we face in today's Internet age is never before has access to, you know, explicit material been easier, faster, more prevalent. And really it's a form of arrogance, if I could even say that way to think we don't need help in our faster scales that we do in group check ins. Step one involves overconfidence. And I think if we feel like, oh, I'm fine, I can navigate this now there's some overconfidence that comes. And so part of everyone's healing journey we really feel is that accountability software because it creates that continual feeling for you that the Internet is not a place I go alone, that I'm actually there with friends who I can be accountable to and I, I can use the Internet for healthy things because it has tons of benefits and we want to use the Internet well. But the best way I know to guard against all the dark corners that we can get pulled into is knowing if I go there, my friends are going to see it too. And that's why accountability software is vital for anyone's recovery journey.

Yeah. And we have three options that we really suggest and we hope that you consider, and really it's one of those things too, where we offer these different options because different options offer different benefits that maybe work best for you and your community. The three options are Covenant Eyes, Ever Accountable and accountable to you. For Covenant Eyes, if you go to covenanteyes.com PureDesire or you enter the promo code PureDesire, you will get one month free. And it also gives us a little bit of a kickback as a ministry. Covenant eyes is $11.99 per month. And again, you get that first month free. The second one is Ever Accountable. Go to ever accountable.compuredesire you can sign up. That is 6.99amonth. And then there's Accountable to you. Accountable the number two. And then y o u.com so that's accountable the number two. Y o u.com use the code PureDesire. You'll get some benefits there as well. And again, guys, we would just say that this is one of the most helpful tools to have in your belt. So we hope that you consider accountability software.

Okay, guys, so back to our thoughts here. Just about how do we address this situation? For a lot of listeners, they are not the group leader or facilitator and they may be observing an advice giver. So how do we help stop the advice giver and group if we're not the leader or facilitator?

I always think leading by example is the best way to do it. But I'm aware that there may be people listening and I've done this too where I'm not really sure if I'm the advice giver or not the best way to do it after group or if you feel like you just said something, just say, hang on a second. Do you feel like I just gave you advice that was unwarranted and just straight up ask the question. And if the person in group is like, yeah, then it's like, okay, now I've identified it and now I put it into practice the next time we're in group or for the rest of that group. But I think that that's the best way I can think of being a group leader or group member. Excuse me, is really just practicing the best practices in order to create safety and a culture where people can come in and feel safe sharing. I think that that just means trying to do it in your own group experience.

Yeah, you know, like what you said, Nick, when somebody asks or gives advice and you see the guy kind of just kind of shut down a little bit when that happens as A leader to recognize that and then. But don't just pass that up and go, you know, to go to the next guy. You know, I'll ask a question, you know, I'll say, hey, do you mind if I asked you a question about that? About not. I won't say about the advice that was just given, but I'll just say, hey, about that and then maybe get him to process why it's so painful for him. And then it kind of diffuses that a little bit in that moment. So then now you're not passing the guy that was just like felt like he got punched in the gut, you know, but then follow that up with a conversation outside a group. But I think when it happens in group, we have to be pretty quick on our, our feet to see it happening. And then you don't want to be rude as a group leader, but you. I think it's an opportunity where other guys will pick up when you diffuse it right away, when you can follow up with a question with that individual.

So let me, let me pose a question off this. Okay, we're going to go a little off script. If someone, let's say I'm sharing in group and I share and I'm not even asking a question. I just finished what I'm sharing and someone jumps in and gives me advice, is it okay for me in group to call that person out? And if so, what would that look like?

Yeah, and that's actually gets right into what I was going to say. I think you've got two choices there, that if you feel comfortable, I do think it's appropriate in a gracious way. And that would be my question to you is do you feel you can respond in a gracious way? Because if you're angry and triggered by the way they just gave you advice, it's probably best to take a beat, take a deep breath and kind of.

Come back sheathing the knife that's on your belt as you're come back to.

That maybe outside a group or the next week. But if in the moment you realize, man, that's kind of frustrating me. I feel like they've done that before. And I feel appropriate to say something like, I don't know if you realize you're doing this, but I just, I was pretty open on my faster scale there and was feeling a little raw. And the way you quoted that verse to me, I felt dismissed. I felt not heard. I felt like you just told me how to fix my problem. And that was a little. So again, focusing on yourself, how it made you feel now accusing them back. But I think that is appropriate to say because that's in our memo of understanding. What we encourage for group members is to take responsibility that this isn't the leader's group, that this is everyone's group. And if something's happening that you don't like, you need to be willing to speak up again in a gracious way in a way that hopefully will promote a solution and not just make everyone angry. But the other option, if you don't feel comfortable doing that, the encouragement would be to go to your group leader and have that courage to say, hey, every time I share, I just brace myself for Gary. Here he comes again with all his answers. And I don't necessarily feel comfortable talking to him or I don't know how to bring it up and saying to the group leader, would you help me address this? Because that really is a great way a facilitator or leader can help is to say, hey, there's a group dynamic that I'm aware of that's causing some issues or friction here and we just need to be thoughtful about advice giving, you know, now the group leader can kind of say it to a lot of people and if, if needed, can follow up with Gary. You know, my apologies to anyone out there named Gary because that was a totally random name that we chose earlier in the episode. But. But those are, I think, the two options. Either if you feel comfortable addressing it, yeah, you should, because I think that is what it means to take responsibility for the group. But otherwise talk with your group leader and see if there's an appropriate way that it could get addressed.

But both of those ways of addressing it are really focused on the fit future health of the group too. Like, it's not just. So I feel more comfortable think that me engaging this because it may be a really sensitive, like you might have been feeling this from Gary or whoever in your group has been sharing this. Let's just pick a lady's name. Let's pick Kathy. Okay. If Kathy is consistently that person in your group, then understand that it's not just you addressing it and it's going to help you, but you're actually two things. In my mind, you're creating a place where it's okay for other group members to do the same thing in the moment if they feel comfortable engaging that group member or talking to their group member outside or the group leader outside of group and then engaging it. But then also it just creates this accountability once we're in, like we're Locked in. We're doing group. It's okay to be real. It's okay to call each other on stuff. And I think that that could be really healthy for the long haul.

Yeah. And I've seen guys, and I've done them too, myself. It's like, you know, where I would say, you know, I appreciate the advice, but, you know, shut up.

In a nice way.

Yeah. You know, that's the nice way to get it to do that. But it's, you know, I appreciate the advice, but I'm gonna. This is something I have to. To figure out and, you know, I will go talk with my counselor or whatever.

Yeah.

But to let them know that, hey, I appreciate that person in group and in a nice way. But yeah, it's. It's a way to kind of.

Yeah.

Stop and move on.

Yeah.

Well, I used the word before and I'll say it again. It requires courage. Because I think if we're the one addressing it, we have to be willing to state how it's making us feel because that's why it's an issue. It's not just that advice giving is bad. It's that when you gave me advice, you made me feel like a child or you made me feel immature. You made me feel like I'm clueless. You made me feel stupid. And I think that's the best way to express. And it takes courage. But then the other person can realize, oh, I don't want to make you feel that way. And so I need to work on my habits and patterns so that I can change and help make this a good group experience for everyone.

Which I don't think is. I don't think that people do. I don't think that I'm giving advice because I want you to feel like an idiot or a moron. It's a number of things. And so getting called on it, you may see that they respond actually pretty well at first being, oh, gosh, I didn't realize. I'm so sorry. But then that creates again the health moving forward.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What should we do if we know we're the advice giver Trevor in the group and how can we stop doing it and be a better group member?

Yeah. I think what Trevor said earlier was a great answer. That we've got to be willing to ask and say, hey, I feel like I've been sharing a lot. Am I giving too much advice? Am I saying too much? I don't want to dominate the conversation being willing to name it and say, I want all of us to Feel like we're participating and not just you share and then I tell you what to do. Something I've practiced in group that I think is really helpful is just deciding ahead of time that I'm not going to be the first person to talk when someone else shares. So when that faster scale gets shared. Yeah. And there's like, you just see some obvious holes that you're. Just. Because you've done group for a while or Since Trevor was 8, you've been leading groups and like, man, this guy has so many issues. But it's just like taking a deep breath and waiting. And I have been so pleasantly surprised. How many times a group member will kind of go, do you mind if I ask you a question? You know, you can see their wheels turning and they just needed a little more time. But if you give it that space, and like you said, Trevor, it can be uncomfortable. Sometimes I'm counting in my head, like, I'm not going to say anything for 10 seconds.

35, 36.

That may be a little. A little extreme, but. But as I'm, you know, just allowing that space, someone else will step in and it creates that group sense of, hey, we're all in this together. It's not just Nick's group or Rich's group or whoever. So I think that's a really important practice, is just determining I'm going to not be the first one to speak. And sometimes that might mean that we just go on to the next person and I don't say the things I wanted to say. And that's the other thing I have to realize is that's okay, because that's trusting the process. That's trusting that they don't need to hear everything to fix their life. In this group tonight, that we're going to be together, hopefully, you know, seven pillars, betrayal and beyond unraveled. We're going to be together nine or 10 months, and if they don't get it all tonight, I'm going to trust the Holy Spirit's work in their life, that maybe that's an opportunity that will come back around in a week or a month, that. That we don't have to address it all right away. So if. If I just decide to move on because no one else stepped in, I think there are times we need to say to ourselves, it's okay, God's going to use that and we'll come back to it. If it really is something they needed to hear.

I think one of the things that we miss out because as you're sharing, I'm thinking it is true. One of the things we miss out when we're jumping to give advice is we're not actually listening to everything that that person is saying. We catch one thing and we're like, okay, I'm going to solve that problem for them.

We already have an answer just waiting.

Right. If you could finish, that'd be great. Okay, okay. Oh, now, now here's my advice. And I think that you miss out on that, and I think that that actually hurts your group experience. And I've said this probably a hundred times over the 130plus episodes we've been doing, is that you get potentially just as much from someone else's answer as you do your own work that you did during the week. So you're like, basically counteracting that possibility. I think the two words that come to me when answering this question are own it and practice. Like, own it. If you know that you and I've had to do this, you basically just have to eat, like, whatever. You just have to eat turd, whatever you want to call it. But you just say like, and I've done this. I've called it just been like, hey, so, Jason, I totally jumped the gun. I'm so sorry. My bad. And I mean, I've never had one time someone just be like, yeah, you're being kind of a jerk. You more on I hate you. Like, I'm going to another group. Like, no one's done that. Usually it ends well. So own it. But then practice. And a practice that's worked for me when I try it is waiting until someone asks me a question to share. Like, in group, I'll share my stuff when it's my turn. But then waiting. Unless someone asks me a question, don't offer anything. And I think that even if you try that for a few weeks, someone may even say, hey, I've noticed you're not really given anything. Do you have any thoughts? There's your opening, right? And then you can jump back in and start sharing. That's just another thing that I would suggest maybe practicing.

Yeah, I think important as a leader, it's real hard not to give feedback when, I mean, I've heard everything in group. I, you know, I've been blessed and been able to follow Ted for 30 years, whatever it is. And so it's like, when I'm hearing this stuff, it's like, oh, I remember Ted worked with me on that. So it's like, well, I think you could do this. Sometimes it's hard just to bite your Tongue. And you just have to sit there, and it's okay as a leader not to say anything. Otherwise, you would spend every guy, every gal, every time they shared something. You'd be giving advice to everyone, especially if you've been a leader for a long time because you've done all this stuff, and you know what works. And it's not a bad thing to. To say, hey, you have to figure, you know, kind of let them figure it out on their own. But again, like, we've been talking about just sharing our own, starting those conversations with I. And, you know, it's real, and I struggle with that. And some. And some guys that said, man, you haven't said very much today was because I want them. I would rather have my guys in group do those conversations, and then I'll just fill in the gaps, because I feel, especially now with the guys I'm leading, they are really bonding. And the more I get her out of the way and let them work with each other and then challenge each other, it's really important.

So powerful. That's super powerful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there are two primary reasons I hear of that groups consistently don't finish on time, and that's because there's too many rabbit trails. They're not sticking to what they wrote. They're not sticking to the material and the leader who talks too much. So they're always teaching and bringing in advice, and everyone who shares they're working with them. It just. It goes on and on. And I think we have to remember group members, there are some that will start to dread that. It's like, well, here we go again. Now it's. I'm gonna be waiting 15 minutes while Gary and Tony walk through his faster scale, and all the rest of us are just waiting for our turn. And so realize you're doing your group a big favor by staying on task and not jumping in every time.

Yeah, one kind of thought, too, on that, as you were saying something rich. I think that we kind of selfishly want the credit of somehow giving the right answer or not. Somehow we do. We want the credit. You fixed me right? And. And I think that said no one ever right. If that's what you're after, then your. Your heart's in the wrong place. And that's where we got a gut check there and say, if I want you to get healthy, believe it or not, God can work through the material and through you and other people, and you don't need me in order for you to be healthy in this area, period. Yeah, like, and that's going to like humble pie. You got to take a few pieces of that, you know, in order to really get to that point. But I think it's really important to understand that you don't have. You're not an essential piece to someone's recovery. You get to be a part of their recovery if you're in group with them, but only as much as they're willing to let you in. So I don't know. I'm conviction again. I feel like I get convicted every, like.

So now it's like, hey, I just opened the door. Turn on the computer and let group happen. I don't have to.

Which is enough. Yeah, yeah, totally. Okay, so let's wrap it up here with final encouragements regarding any aspect of this infamous group member, the advice giver. What would you guys say?

You know, I think you just gotta love on him. And the reason. The reason he's giving advice is because he's been given bad advice his whole life. And so that's the only way he thinks he can give back. Because he was told he wasn't good enough. He's been through all this stuff. You know, you could have scored more points. You could have done this better, this better. So he feels like that's all the language he's ever known. So that's. He feels like he's doing something. And then when I think when you are able to break that, you. They eventually will see it and they're like, oh, wow, I'm doing the exact same thing that was. That was been done to me my whole life. And then they can start seeing that come out in groups. So you just love on those guys, you know, and just, you know, tell them that, you know, I think that's an opportunity to pull them outside a group and really spend some quality time with them. Either on the phone, for coffee, whatever it is, just to maybe get some background of why.

Yeah, yeah. For me, I think my final advice would be we have to be really committed to. To working harder on listening than we do to speaking. Because that's something we find is that listening is an art form. It's a discipline. It's easier to focus on our speaking because when we speak, we're naturally fully engaged in thinking about what we're saying. But when I'm listening to you, I'm more naturally thinking about what I'm gonna say next versus that proactiveness of listen. Engage. What are they saying? What does it mean? Because that's the gift you bring your group is the better you get at listening. Your ability to ask those questions or that really becomes insightful to that person is so much better than just what am I going to say next? And I think that's a convicting place for me because listening isn't always a great skill, but I'm finding it is something you can work on and you can listen well. And when you listen well, you'll really contribute to your group in some great ways.

Yeah, yeah. The only thing is just, and this is just the way I think about it because I've got a three year old at home now. He's three. He's moved from two to three. By the time this comes out, he will be three. I can't. So we basically are playing basketball with my son inside. We've got one of those door hanging hoops. We play it in his room all the time and it's super fun and I love it. I can't shoot for him. I have to let him figure it out. I have to allow him to shoot and practice and get better and get that repetition in. And really the way I think about it is in group we're trying to help people connect their own dots, not us connecting their dots for them. And so I think that that'd be my advice is just go into it with that perspective, knowing that if you do trust the process, as you guys have both said that, and people do the work in that process, that health will happen and you can be there to help as. And I love what you said. You're basically rich, you said that you're filling in the gaps that other people can come around in community. This can happen, they can fill it out and then you can help fill in those little gaps here and there rather than connecting the big dots for them. So just going to with that perspective, I think that'll be really helpful. Okay. We value here at PD creating the safest, the best, really the most effective experience in group that we can. And that's why we have these conversations. So when we identify tendencies or patterns that can really counteract that or pull away from that. If we do that, it sets ourselves up for better group experience. And really I think it helps people heal probably at a faster rate and definitely at a deeper rate as well. So Rich, Nick, you guys, your experiencing group, it's awesome to have you. Thanks for being here.

Thank you.

Wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, you can go to PureDesire.com. and start your healing journey. And if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it Rich is forcing you to right now. Just subscribe. It'll be worth it. And if you write a review, it'll help others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.