138 - Infamous Group Members: The Slacker

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Good morning, Pure Desire Nation. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 138 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Change, change, change.

I just, like. I don't even know what to say.

You got that one?

I think I do. I think I do. But I'm gonna let you.

Are the original lyrics Chang or chain?

Well, depending on if you haven't had lunch yet. I'm sure it could be Changs Changs Chang's, because that's Mongolian Grill is my place.

Oh, there you go.

Yeah.

Okay, so I have this.

What's your guess? Is it Chang or chain? Cause actually, that's a really common. When people mess up a change, it's. Well, no, it's chain. Like Aretha Franklin originally sang chain, chain, chain. But a lot of people think it's Chang Cheng Chang. And it's just.

Ah, got it.

So then I just added the E and made it change. Because we're here to talk about. We are change.

We don't video record our intros. I wish we did.

Ever.

Okay, so, so, okay, so, listener. We're not even going to press in yet to even what we talked about today, but for me, I just get this vision. This is episode 138. I was. I was thinking about it yesterday, like, man, we're going to get to 200 and then we're going to get to 300. Then we get to four. We're going to get to 500 episodes. We're going. What was that one politician?

You said like a million.

Yeah, right.

We're going to Oregon.

We're going to Washington. That guy. We're going to a thousand.

That was effectively the end of his campaign, if you recall.

Oh, my gosh. One of the greatest sound bites of the political world. So good. But good luck, basically, is where I'm headed with coming up with that many intros.

It's becoming a unique challenge. Yes.

Yeah.

That you have created for yourself.

Yes. Maybe at one of those hallmark moments at 200, we'll put that to death. Or by then I'll have one that I'm just like, this is my phrase now.

You just literally killed the soul of all of our listeners by saying, you want to stop?

He's still 62 episodes away. So we'll see.

All right.

We'll see where I'm at.

That's fair.

That's Over a year away.

If you have better ideas, you can email nicksewedesires.org? okay, a couple quick things, then we'll get into today's episode. First, if you are not subscribed to the podcast, do it. Don't wait any longer. Your life, too, can be changed. You can find us on all major platforms, give us a review. It helps other people find the podcast, and then also follow us on social media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, instagramuredesirepdmi is our name. And then if you like to consume video content, we have some of the episodes up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Okay, so today we're wrapping up week four of our Infamous Group Members series, and we talked about the Slacker today.

Yes, there are probably, in truth, there are more than four infamous Group members. We could go on and on, but I think we chose to focus on maybe the most common ones we see. I think this one's unique because probably at one point or another, all of us could say, I've struggled to do my work. Could be a season of life we're in or just kind of losing some focus or not being very disciplined. And that could be even as the leader, I know there's seasons where, like, I have not really been doing my work, and, man, I'm a bad example. So I think in this episode, there's just a lot of tips and ideas and thoughts that we give towards it. And also, if you're not in. If you're not even in a group yet. The other thing I love about our conversation today is I think it will help you analyze maybe why sometimes you don't want to face these things. Because we do talk a lot about just the natural avoidance that goes on in our thinking when it comes to things that are painful, difficult, challenging. So I hope every listener can find some encouragement how to face things we don't feel like facing.

Yep. And we sat down with Dan Howey, our online groups administrator, to talk about the Slacker. Enjoy the episode. Dan, you're becoming a regular on the show. We're glad to have you.

New shirt? Yep. It's looking good.

I got a new shirt. It's yellow alert. Maybe it's my guardrail shirt.

Yellow. That's.

Oh, my gosh. All the Pure Desire group members are just like, mer, Mer. Okay. All right. Well, many of you listening or watching this have either heard or experienced a Pure Desire group, been involved in one, whether it's online or at a local church. So Pure Desire groups really just Continue to meet weekly to try to help people create health in their life in the area of their sexuality. And as we have heard, seen and experienced ourselves as group members, leaders, people who have helped facilitate. We have difficult or infamous group members as we'll call them. And you guys have heard the joke, right? That if you're not this, if you don't see the infamous group member, then you are that infamous group member. Right? Which insert another wah wah, terrible joke. But today we wanna talk about the last one. We're wrapping up this four week series and we are talking about the infamous group member, the slacker.

The slacker.

Which. Dan, there's a reason why we had you on today's episode.

I am the slacker. Where are we?

That's right.

Didn't have a chance to look it over.

Let's just jump in. We hear a lot. Cause there is work involved in our groups. So we have our group resources and there's a lot of work that's involved. So people, especially when they're struggling with sexual addiction or the effects of sexual addiction, we hear the word homework or work and that immediately puts us into this performance based performance mode. And it makes it really difficult to actually do the work of the homework for group. So why do you guys think this is such an issue for so many people?

It's hard.

Work.

Nobody likes to do homework. I know that we're asking people to like you said, not perform but like do something healing. And I think guys are really good at doing things, but we're asking them to do something emotional and that's hard. I mean a performance mode is just a surface level exercise to complete a task. But actual homework. We're asking you to change something. And honestly we've been working very hard to not change something. So we're literally asking you to do something you haven't wanted to do for most likely decades.

Yeah.

So just kind of put you a little bit behind the eight ball there.

Well, and I find for so many, I mean, I'll speak from my experience, it's guys in group, but this could happen for gals as well. That when they get into group, it's often the first work homework they've done since they were in school. And so it's hard for them not to go back and feel like, how do I measure up? What's the grade gonna be? What if I do my work and it's not very good or it's not as good as what other people do?

I'm ugly in high school. I don't like that season of life.

Yeah, exactly. And for actually a fair number of people I've done group with, there is some trauma in their story of being in school. Whether feeling like they were ridiculed for not being able to read or having dyslexia issues or feeling like people made fun of them because they were the low score on grades that got posted. There's all kinds of things that happen in that school environment that communicate the message to us of not good. And I think when we hear work or homework, that fear of it will not be good enough or I can't perform well comes. And I've tried to talk people through that, to remind them there's no grade, you don't turn in the homework. That we're not here to compare traumas. That really. And I've even jokingly said, just if it's helpful, think of this as an opportunity for self assessment.

There you go.

That these are just self assessment exercises. It's not homework. But there's just that reality of we tell people in a chapter, you're gonna read a few pages and answer some questions. It's like, oh my gosh, this feels like high school English class. And in front of people.

Yeah, right.

That's the mindset we're trying to help people break out of so that they see this work is really about improving themselves.

Yeah. I think that growing up, for me, growing up in the church and Christian culture in a lot of ways, and we see this, we've talked about a lot on the podcast is we're taught the do this, don't do this approach to so many things. And for guys and gals who are walking into this, we've done that. We have tried the don't do this, avoid, snap the rubber band, walk away, divert your eyes, whatever. And then we've also tried the let's read more, let's pray more, let's go to church every single day for multiple hours, like, get rid of our tv. We've done all these things and it hasn't worked. And so when we walk into a group where you're given more things to do or more exercises to go through, it's like, we've been there, done that, and this doesn't work. When in reality it's actually the type of work that you've been trying to do is different. And that's what you're talking about. You're pressing into emotions, you're pressing into your trauma. And that's really difficult. But I think that we're this, like, do this don't do this black and white culture. And we kind of bring that into it in a lot of ways. That trips us up.

Yeah.

One. Another thing about that culture is that it's really immersed in don't think about the bad things in your life. That we kind of say, if there's bad stuff, you surrender it, you leave it in the past. Is in the past, and. And we're looking ahead, we're looking towards heaven, which is all great and true, but I think the reality for so many Christ followers or that grew up in that kind of an environment is we've never dealt or processed the stuff in our past that's still tripping us up. So when we go and say, well, okay, you got to do work every week, it's basically telling someone, you need to look at all that stuff. You need to look at that garbage. And I think any one of us would be lying to ourselves if we didn't say there's a piece of us that doesn't want to do that. We don't want to look at the crud. We just. We want to focus on the happy, the positive. But if we don't look at it, we can't deal with the impact it's having on us. So we're trying to help people process why. Maybe you feel that maybe that's just the message you've been hearing since you were young. This may go without saying, but doing your work in group is really important. But let's talk that out. Why is doing work each week so important for your participation in group?

So I had a counselor of mine who happens to be a counselor from here, say, give me something that was really helpful. He said, there's no neutral days, like you're either moving towards restoration and healing or you're moving towards relapse. And for me, that meant getting involved. And I think that goes the same same way for group. Getting consistent with just doing homework helps me get towards healing, not towards relapse. Because it's really like we were just talking about, we haven't maybe done work for a long time or done something hard outside of work hours for a very long time. And now we're like, I'm supposed to give up something else to go and feel crappy again, Lousy. I don't know. That kind of sucks.

Yeah. I think Heather Kolb, who's on staff with us, has said this multiple times, and research suggests that this is true, that. That we carry our trauma, we carry our family and our experiences with us in our brain and so we've already talked about this a little bit, but that idea of pressing into those things and revisiting those, like think of your trauma as a crime scene, like a brutal crime scene. You don't want to revisit those. Like you try to avoid those, move away from those. Let's just move on. And in reality, the work that why it's so important is your healing is actually through that. And I love, and I'll probably quote Jay Stringer later, but our friend Jay Stringer talks about this a lot too, that it's actually through your trauma and through the difficult experiences, that freedom is on the other side. And so that idea of you have to dive back in to the worst parts of your life, which is not fun, but that allows you to then reclaim what happened. And we just. I've been having some conversations and Drew Boa is a guy that recently said this idea, he said that the idea is to reparent yourself. And I thought that was fascinating. Like that's such an interesting idea. But you're going back to these really difficult moments in your life and, and you're actually speaking to that. So for me, that 13 year old Trevor who had that traumatic experience on the baseball field, I can say, look man, it's okay that this happened. Here's what's true. And try to remind so re parenting yourself. Drew's a really smart guy, smarter than I am. And so I'm thankful that guys like that can come up with it. But I just think that that's such a powerful experience and we can go back and reclaim those areas of life and reuse them for the health that we're now setting.

Yeah. Well, another analogy that comes to mind for me is that of a car. And when you show up at group each week, it is kind of like putting fuel in the car. It's oil in the eng. The engine. And it can be motivational. There's other people, you're hearing stories. But if, if there's something wrong with the engine, you can't just keep adding gas and oil and hope it's going to get better. Like if you've actually got to pop the hood and know what you're looking for. I tried that a couple times. It just needs more gas. More gas. But a lot of Christian Bible studies are kind of like that. Like we just show up once a week, we add some gas to the tank and run for another week and come back tanks on low, fill it back up. Yeah. But the reason we've gotten stuck in addictive Behaviors or damaging relationships or whatever prompted us to be in a pure desire group is because there's something amiss in the engine. And doing your work is about popping up the hood and figuring out, okay, what's really going on here. And just like, if you're analyzing an engine, not every single lesson is going to get to the core of your problem. But if you don't go through those lessons, you won't get to what is the core because you'll just. You'll miss where it might be at. Because I don't think when you start, you don't know exactly where the problems are at because otherwise you would have fixed them. And so you need kind of this thorough process that step by step takes you through. And some weeks you'll be like, well, I did my work. That was okay. And other weeks you'll be like, holy cow, how have I never seen this before? But that only comes when you're doing the work week in and week out.

I anticipate the emails I'll get when I say this. I am not a car guy. And so I just disclaimer, okay. But I know that there are things that you actually have to take certain pieces of the car out in order to get to other pieces. So to push into that analogy more. And so again, not a car guy. I have no idea what I'm talking about. But I know you've had to take some things out in order to get under the surface. I think that that's what these resources do, is they allow you to take those, get them out of the way to finally see, oh, wow, there's the problem the whole time.

Yeah.

It builds on itself, like you were saying week after week. And if we don't participate, if we're not doing it, we're all learning a new language. You know, we all preach. I mean, how many top. How many times do you talk about a commitment to change outside of coming into pure desire?

Right. Or use the word arousal.

Arousal. Yeah.

Template.

And anything other than, you know, an email. Yeah. But if we don't. If we're not familiarizing ourselves with the. With the material, with the. With the process, and some guy, you know, throws out something about his, you know, his arousal template, and I haven't done the work. I'm like, wait, what do you say? I don't have anything to add.

Yeah.

And I'm maybe not understanding where we're at. So.

So let's. So we kind of identify the importance of doing group for the individual, and we see that it negatively Impacts the group if people aren't doing their work. So let's talk about that. Why or how does it negatively impact the group?

Well, how many times have, as a leader, have you gotten the call, can we meet for like, 15 minutes before group? And you're like, he's not bringing me pizza. I know that much.

Or coffee.

Or coffee bear, anything. You know, it's going to be. And I will say at least 60, 70% of the time, it's like, hey, you know, Steve over there, he doesn't come prepared. And I just. I just don't feel safe.

Yeah.

You know, there's got camaraderie and a trust that's built by everyone doing the same thing. The military is, you know, probably I. I did one year of rotc, so that's my military experience. But I do know that they just pounded into like, everybody does everything. It doesn't matter you're doing it, whether you're the best or the worst at it. You're all doing it together. And then. And it really does. It builds that camaraderie and that trust, and you're better as a. As a group than an individual, which is one of the premises of pure desire.

Totally.

So.

Well, and I'll be frank that when people in a group aren't doing their work, it creates suspicion of, like, I don't think they're doing very well, or maybe they're trying to hide something, or they're not processing yet. And fair or not, it's. It's just that attitude in the group where people start to wonder what's up? Because you're just. You're not being forthright and being a full participant. So it's. If you want to avoid having people look at you like that, and even if they don't mean to, I just. I think there's some basic human response of like, well, what don't they want us to know? And so. And that on the flip side, that may be a reality, that you've read the work and you're kind of like, I think I know what doors I'd have to open, and I don't know if I want to go there. And so you find reasons to put it off for the week, to not get around to it. And then 10 minutes before group, you look at it again. And I really don't want to answer those questions. And so I would just encourage a listener, like, if you're there, don't try to hide behind that. Be honest with your group. Show up and say, you know, I want you to know, I didn't do my work this week, and I would like to say I didn't have time, but the truth is these are really hard questions and I'm afraid of what I might have to say, and I just couldn't get there yet. But would you be patient with me? Because I'm committed to doing the work like the group. And I'm realizing I didn't want to go here, but I think I need to sort of. I think owning it would actually be better for your group than acting like, oh, I just was so busy. Because that's what we hear, at least in group time. It was just such a busy week. Like, really, in seven 24 hour days, you didn't have one hour to sit down. I mean, I'm just so busy, it's not a valid reason to not do the work. And so I think we just need to own that and be honest with our group if that's happening.

Yeah, Just as you're saying that, I'm thinking, like, so you're saying that you're too busy to save your marriage or to create a healthy culture in your family or be a good, you know, father or mother. Like, there's just so many, so many things that are gonna be impacted by that for me. And I've. I feel like a broken record. I've said this so many times on this podcast that I got almost more out of someone else's answer and their work than I did my own. Where somebody says something about their experience or their story or the way that they think or act, and it connects a dot for me that I didn't know was there and I'm like, ah, thank you. Like, thanks, man, for sharing that. Because now I, you know, and I'm like, sitting over there writing in my workbook like, okay, right, right. Can you say that again? Right, like writing it down. So for me, I think that if I'm not doing my work, I'm not only negatively impacting my own health and my recovery journey, but I'm also potentially negatively impacting someone else's recovery journey as well. Because if what I have to say benefits you and what you have to say benefits me, then my lack of work is really going to hurt the.

Group overall for sure. All right, so for many people we know, especially for addicts, having rules and regulations isn't easy. How do we wrap our heads around having to work every single week? Wrap the head.

Oh, my gosh.

You know, I think it's important for us to recognize we all sacrifice for something in our lives. And we have self imposed rules or regulations for things we care about or are passing about. And we didn't have to have someone else tell us to do it because we had a vision for why that was important. And so I think like in my own life there are times where I've gotten up at 5am to run in the dark and the rain and the cold, you know, for like 10 miles. And it is like you say, well, that for a lot of people that would be silly. But I had a goal in mind of a time I wanted to run in a marathon. And I believed that's what it took to get there. And so I made lifestyle changes that impacted everything I did around that passion and that goal. And, and it's fine if running's not your passion, but I wouldn't say in your life you've got something. So I talk to guys that have, they have scraped and saved to buy that hunting rifle and to get that week off to go hunting in Montana and take time off work. And like there is tons of self discipline and rules and regulations you put on yourself. Or maybe it's, you know, for women to get that girl's weekend or you know, to buy something for their house or we've created rather strict discipline so we can get something. But in those areas we didn't think of it as rules and regulations. It was just what we were passionate about. And so that might be the helpful key in this to really know the vision of why you're working towards what you're working towards. Is it to save your marriage? Is it a healthier version of yourself? Is it to really find freedom and joy and not have that issue in your life anymore? And if you can remind yourself the stuff I'm doing is to get there. It's not just about I got to do my homework, I do my faster skill got, you know, now it does become a burden. But it's like, no, I want to have a marriage that lasts, well, then I'm willing to do it. And if it means maybe I had to get up at 5am to do my homework, one week, I could do it. Because I say that's what it's going to take to save my marriage, to fix my issues, to find freedom. And maybe that's the other thing, just to kind of wrap this idea up is if we're really struggling to do the work, maybe we haven't embraced that that's what it takes. Yeah, that there's a part of us still going, no, I can Fix this on my own. I don't need to do the work everybody else does. My problems aren't, quote, unquote, that bad. I've got this figured out. And sometimes we have to pause and go. There's a lot of delusion in that and self rationalization and denial. We just got to say, if, if others have said this is what it takes, I'm just going to embrace this is what it takes. And. And then we can, I think, put the effort in that it takes to really get the work done.

Yeah, I've been over the last few months really pressing into, like, spiritual disciplines. And one of the. One of the. And that's, you know, structure and regulations to how I grow spiritually. And one of the analogies or illustrations that I continue to run into over and over is a trellis and a vine. And so if you want vines to grow and grow in the right direction, you actually have to have a trellis or structure in place that allows it to grow in the right direction. And another one that's just coming to mind now, like, and I've been using this in some conversations that if you're building a rocket ship, you've got scaffolding around it so that you can build it and put it together. Like, so what you're doing with these rules and regulations is you're creating structure that actually enables you to grow in the right direction. So the irony, too, is that these are not oppressive. These are things that you personally are placing in your life for your growth. And your growth is going to have all this benefit and all this blessing, not only for you, but also for the people around you. And so you're doing work to create. It almost feels like, am I wasting my time by creating this structure? But in reality, if you create the structure, the rules, the regulations, the trellis, then your vine can grow in the right direction or the direction you want to go.

Yeah. For me, and I think you touched on, was literally, I know where I don't want to be. And they're telling me that this is what I have to do and I don't want to do it or it's not comfortable. And I literally. There's a line that says surrender to the process, which is like, kind of confusing when your head's foggy from, you know. But literally those words, surrender to the process made a world of difference to me. It's like, I don't have to figure it out. I just have to trust that this has worked for how many years? On how many. For how many Men, if I just do this, I have a good shot. And that made a lot of difference, took the pressure off me. I have to figure it out, just do what they said and not check off the boxes, but just go with the program.

Something that I was thinking about too, and I've heard, I'm not going to quote the exact percentage, but Jay Stringer in his book Unwanted found that specifically men who struggled with a lack of purpose or direction in life had a higher percentage of struggling in this area seven times more. It's incred like it's incredible. And so this for the, for many people may be the first time they feel like they have purpose, they have a direction in life. And I think that that totally is super scary. When you're standing at the bottom of a mountain and you want to, you know, go all the way to the peak, it's scary. But you also understand that you've got a place to go, you can see where you're headed. And I think that for so many men and women, especially in this area, it's important to understand that direction creates purpose and purpose really creates action when we push into it. Just like Batman's utility belt, we all need tools to help us create sobriety and maintain health over the long haul. One of the first and simplest tools to implement is accountability software.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. One of the challenges we face in today's Internet age is never before has access to explicit material been easier, faster, more prevalent. And really it's a form of arrogance, if I could even say that. Way to think we don't need help in our faster scales that we do in group check ins. Step one involves overconfidence. And I think if we feel like, oh, I'm fine, I can navigate this now there's some overconfident confidence that comes. And so part of everyone's healing journey, we really feel, is that accountability software because it creates that continual feeling for you that the Internet is not a place I go alone, that I'm actually there with friends who I can be accountable to and I can use the Internet for healthy things because it has tons of benefits and we want to use the Internet well. But the best way I know to guard against all the dark corners that we can get pulled into is knowing if I go there, my friends are going to see it too. And that's why accountability software is vital for anyone's recovery journey.

Yeah, and we have three options that we really suggest and we hope that you consider. And really it's one of those things too, where we offer these different options because different options offer different benefits that maybe work best for you and your community. The three options are Covenant Eyes. Ever Accountable and accountable to you for Covenant Eyes Eyes. If you go to covenanteyes.com PureDesire or you enter the promo code PureDesire, you will get one month free. And it also gives us a little bit of a kickback as a ministry. Covenant eyes is 11.99 per month. And again, you get that first month free. The second one is ever accountable. Go to everaccountable.compuredesire you can sign up. That is 6.99amonth. And then there's accountable to you. Accountable the number two. And then y o u.com so that's accountable the number two y o u.com use the code PureDesire. You'll get some benefits there as well. And again, guys, we would just say that this is one of the most helpful tools to have in your belt. So we hope that you consider accountability software.

So what if. And we joked about this at the beginning, but what if we are the one who's struggling and maybe we're even the leader because we've done the work before. And so like I've done all this and we realize we're kind of slacking. We're not bringing the effort to the group we should be. How do we improve or make changes in this area?

There is this little thing, you may have heard of it, it's called a commitment to change. And that seems like, I don't know, I've had to literally use that to do my work before. It's like I will make sure that I do it because it gives me a schedule. It makes me accountable to it. If I'm doing it right, I'm going to right plan out what I'm doing. I'm going to check in with people on how I'm doing it. It's really practical, making sure that I make my calls so that I am accountable to doing it. It's just one super practical way for me.

Yeah, that's good.

Without having to dig into the why I'm not doing it.

Sure.

Probably what I'm really avoiding.

I know for me, I tend to be all over the map and want to do like the next cool big thing, fun thing, type 7 enneagram. There you go. But what I have, and this is I'm really thankful and I can't remember exactly when I started doing it, but I started using basically a schedule to block out my hours and my time and the more I've pressed into it, I found that what you value, you schedule and what you schedule, you value. And so like literally put in your schedule recovery time. Like literally put on Tuesdays from 3 to 4 recovery work, 7 pillars, betrayal and beyond, Unraveled, whatever it may be, and put it in there. Because when you look at your calendar in the morning, you're like, oh, yeah, I've got work that I can do at this point. But just saying, well, I'll get to it when I have time this, you know, this evening or I am going to wake up tomorrow at 5. When you've never woken up at 5 in your life. Like, if you schedule it, it becomes something that's more concrete and you can plan for it. And so for me, that's been a practical thing, is actually schedule, put on your calendar recovery work.

Yeah, yeah, I was totally agree with that. And the other thing I've seen be successful for some of this is knowing your personality. And if, if you're the kind that you need to get into it and have enough time and space to really think you might need to schedule one larger block of time. But I know for other people, they, they start to get overwhelmed. They can only do so much. And for them, they have found a lot of success in maybe having 15 minutes a day that they. And that can help. Like if you're a procrastinator, like, I can be on big projects to break it into small doable steps. That if, you know, okay, I'm open to my workbook and I only have to do this for 15 minutes and then I can move on. Well, you'd actually be surprised with that focus how much progress you make in 15 minutes. And if you did that every day for five days, you're like, whoa, I'm totally done. And it didn't have to disrupt my whole life. So I think it's knowing what works for you. And if you're more of a boy, once I get started, I need time to finish it. Great. Make it a two hour block that you've got somewhere in your week. But if you're a. I need to break it into chunks so I don't get overwhelmed. Then just plan that way and maybe do it 15 minutes each night before bed or on your lunch break or in the morning. Those kind of things make it more big difference.

Yeah. Nick, how many groups do you think you've led?

Carry the 2. 15 somewhere in that neighborhood.

Okay, so when you have a member who's struggling, how do you come alongside and encourage them when they're not doing their homework.

I think.

But it's probably never happened in your group because you probably have high performers, high achievers.

No, it happens in every group. I think maybe that's the first step is not take it personally and don't take ownership for their recovery, like, don't try to do it for them. But I think it's an area where we do have to practice some what we might call tough love of enforcing the group guideline to say, if you haven't done the homework, you don't share. And so I'll try to say to a guy like, here, you know, we're so glad you're here. We really invite. I invite you to participate in the commitment to change at the end, because that's something we've always allowed guys to do at the end of a group, but said, I'd really like you, while other guys share, just to sit and listen and understand that because you didn't do your work, you don't get to share. And while that might feel a little harsh in the moment, it underscores for the whole group, not even that person, just for the whole group, like, oh, our homework is important, and we don't get to come and just, you know, shoot the breeze and kind of act like we did it. And then I find it puts people into that helpful routine because they know if I don't write, I don't share. And I'd like to participate, so I'd better write.

I mean, and we talk about this all the time on this podcast, and all our material is you have to lead the way. Like, you first have to be the one who's doing the work. And I think that that really does go a long way. I don't think that that's, like, the one inspirational thing that's gonna push your group members to finally do the work if they're not. But to know that you're consistently doing it and being the one to share and even if you struggle doing your own work as the leader, being honest and saying, guys, I didn't. I didn't do most of the work this week, or I didn't do a piece of the work, so I'm not gonna share here. And then just taking a step back, allowing guys to keep pushing forward with the group meeting. But, yeah, I think that's really the first one. And then for me, because of how important other people's answers are to my recovery, I would communicate that to the group. Understand, guys, that your answers also help me and help other group members here. And so that can be done one on one. That can be done in the group, depending on really the culture or the atmosphere in your group, whether it's really early on or maybe later in the group. But I think that communicating that to each individual group member at some level, in some context is important.

Yeah. And I think one thing that you can do is actually ask them, is there something I can do to help?

What a novel idea.

I know, right? Don't ever expect an answer, because most time they're like, I don't know. But occasionally you'll get a guy, like, say, I really get hung up on doing a faster scale. So I spend all my time doing that, and then I'm burnt out. And like, all right, well, let's talk. Maybe talk through the faster scale differently so you get a better handle on it. You're not overwhelmed. Things like that. Or I don't feel like I have time when my family's around and they're always around. So how do I navigate making time or space to do it? Yeah, absolutely.

Who knows?

You never know what the real reasons are. Because in my mind, I'm like, because you are in relapse.

Yeah.

And don't want to face it.

You're a terrible person.

Like, couldn't be far from the truth.

Right.

You know, they're like, desperately trying, but they're just something. They don't know how to navigate it yet.

Yeah. Well. And that's one of the challenging situations that we find is when a man or woman is in group and their spouse maybe doesn't know what group they're in or what. You know, they haven't quite got to a point of disclosure. There's not a lot of truth in there. And they're getting there. And it's so it's good they're in group, but they're kind of feeling like they have to hide their workbook. So even in the secrecy, coming out of secrecy, they feel like they're keeping secrets. And that may be an area where, if you realize that's happening, like, you can't even do your work because your book's in your truck and you don't want to take it out of there because then your wife might see it. And there comes a point, and I'm not talking full disclosure. I'm not trying to get the whole story out there, but getting honest with this piece to say, you know, this is an area I want to do better and I'm learning and I'm in this group and it's going to be something I'm going to tell you a whole lot more about when the timing is right. But I don't want to hide from you that I'm getting help because that's just a situation that I have found is not sustainable. That if someone goes very long where the other spouse doesn't even know they're in the group, it's either going to lead to a big blow up or they just quit coming to group. Because that tension, you can make it work for maybe the first few weeks, but there comes a point you've got to own it and face that conversation at home. So if that's part of your reason, again, that's not easy, that's not fun. But so many of us could say it's part of the good work you need to do to start facing it and owning it and cracking open that door so that you could have the workbook in your house or your study and not feel like you've got to hide even the work you're doing. That would be an important thing to face.

Yeah. Okay. So what we've been doing with these episodes is really taking all three basically perspectives. If you're the person who is struggling in this area, if you're the leader of the group with someone in your group struggling with this, or if you're just a regular group member. So that's the perspective on this question. If we're just, we're not the leader, we're not the one necessarily struggling with not doing the work. How do we encourage or come alongside those other group members who are struggling with the work?

Yeah. And when I hear that, you know, first thing is when, why are you, you know, you're here for a reason. Just be present and do your homework. And that is often just the most encouraging thing. I think we've all touched on it. Hearing someone else and knowing them fully or as fully as you can at the time creates such a bond, it creates such a camaraderie that that encouragement has, has pulled men through getting out of their own way and sharing. So just be present and do your own thing. Pursue your own healing. And it's often the catalyst for others. I know for marriages, I hear it all the time. A guy will come into group and his wife has been in there for a while. He decided he didn't really need group, but watching her heal, he's. All of a sudden it's like, oh, I got to do something. So we can do that for others just in group.

Yeah. I think back to my Running story. When I first started really getting into running and was going to train for my first marathon, one of the first things I did was meet with a guy that was at the college I was at, and I knew he'd run like 10 of them. And I just started asking questions like, how do you train? And what about this? And as I look back, it occurred to me there was so much that I didn't know. I didn't know, and if I'd have just gone out, like, well, I'm just going to run more and then I'll jump into a marathon, like, it would have probably been a real disaster, but.

We probably wouldn't have you with us.

They helped me develop a plan and an approach. And so I tell that story because if you're in group and it's your second time through or your third or however many, you probably know more than you realize. And usually the person really struggling to do their work is early in recovery, or they're just. They're not getting traction, and so they're frustrated. And if there's a way you can come alongside of them, just say, hey, would it help if once a week we had a phone call just to kind of talk through the lesson and what the questions mean and how I've answered them? And I think a lot of people would be like, oh, man, that would be super helpful. Because I just. I get stuck. I read the question, I don't even know what it means, and I just. I go blank. And so if you could be the mentor or if you're the one struggling, you know, being willing to ask, you know, would you help me, would. I'm getting stuck. And I think if I had a mentor who's been down this road that I could ask midweek, I could make some progress. So that. That could be kind of the thing I would look for, is how can we be part of the solution rather than just sitting there and waiting for good old Joe to get his act together because he's never doing his homework to say how. Back to your question. The novel idea of how can I help? And if I can, I'd love to be a part of encouraging you.

Just.

Feel like kind of on the spot. I feel like I'm thinking about a betrayed spouse, specifically a woman who's in a betrayal. And beyond group. I think that. And I've seen this play out in relationships, even in church or in community groups, that there is this culture in church where you should be protecting the reputation of your spouse. And I think that that's something a lot of Christian women struggle with, at least on the front end of getting into a betrayal and beyond group that you're starting to process through the trauma you've been experiencing from your spouse's struggle. And it feels almost like countercultural what we've been taught. It's like, no, no, I'm supposed to protect and like, you know, forgive and. And we hear stories, we hear those stories all the time. And I think that there's also this element where if you're not sharing in group or if you're the group member who sees another person not sharing in groups, specifically, let's take this example of a betrayed wife in a BNB group to share to that other wife to say, hey, when you don't share or when you're protecting your husband, it actually makes me feel like you're not a safe person to share this with me. Because my life is not all together. Obviously, that's why I'm here. Right. Like my marriage is in a place that really needs some work. And when you're not sharing, I don't feel like it's safe for me to be honest. I don't feel like it's safe for me to share. Like, it feels like you're better than me and I struggle with that. I don't think that you should just dump all this out in the middle of group, but having a one on one conversation to say, I want you to know that when people share about what's going on, it makes them more approachable. There's like this built in trust and to use the word that we use often, intimacy. There's an intimacy to knowing each other that then helps create a culture and a foundation of growth for everyone in the group. So I think that there can be this like, hey, I really need you to share and be honest because it actually helps me press into recovery more and press into my own healing.

Yeah. And obviously we're not there to bash our spouse or throw them under the bus or make them the cause of all our problems. The way I would say it is we are there to face reality. And if someone isn't sharing or doing their work, they may not be facing reality. And so how can we just encourage them? Hey, we're, we're not asking you to get into detail about your spouse or we're not looking for you to blame them or bash them over the head because it's all about them. We just want to help face reality. And if we don't name it and speak it, it's really hard for us to face that reality because then we're still kind of facing it alone. That we only share a few generic answers, but the reality that's really eating us alive. No one knows we're not going to get help, so we've got to be willing to face it. And that's what you're talking about, is if someone's not facing their reality, I don't feel super comfortable facing mine. So inviting one another into that is, I agree, really important.

Yeah. It's like growing up when you. And this is because I'm the oldest child, is that there were things I had to do when I was a certain age or couldn't do when I was a certain age that my youngest brother got to do like four or five years earlier than I did.

Yeah.

And there's this, like, hold on, this isn't fair. Like, why, you know, and there's that dynamic at play in group for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, guys, this has been a really good stuff. Hopefully an encouragement if someone is a slacker. We're. We're not trying to tell you just to try harder. We're trying to give you some tips and ideas to find that motivation to find what's that purpose, what's the bigger reason I'm here that could compel me into doing my work regularly. So as we look to wrap up here, any final tips on getting the work done and being a good contributing member to a group? Group.

I think you go right back to what you talked about right off the bat, which is move away from making it a performance. Homework isn't about a grade, and that's so important. It is simply to help us understand what we believe and what our beliefs make us do or encourage us to do. You know, it's our mindset to how we think about homework will change everything.

Yeah, that's good.

I've heard you say it a lot, Nick, that, like, if this doesn't become a top level or top shelf priority, then it won't work, it won't happen. And I think that that's it. You have to make it a priority. And I mean, I was having conversations with someone today, this morning. Like, when you jump into group, there is a level of sacrifice. To say yes to something means you're saying no to a bunch of other things. And that's just a rule of life that happens. So if you're gonna do this and you're gonna press into it, there are gonna be things that you have to say no to for a season. There may even I know. Watch out. Be something you have to say no to for the rest of your life. But guess what? If you're healthy for the rest of your life, like, that is worth the sacrifice. Way to go. High five. We are now at a different place. And so I think that this has to be a priority. And I would even say this, this needs to become a regular part, regular pattern in your life.

Yeah. The thing I would say, and this might sound simple, but I think it's very, very profound for people is that if you're working on the lesson for that week, if it comes to mind, write it down. If it comes into your mind, write it down. Because we have to recognize that all of us are battling an internal dialogue that will tell us, well, that's a dumb answer, or that's stupid, or that that didn't mean anything, or every answer.

I write down, that's not what it is.

Or maybe we get caught up in, I'm trying to look for, like that one golden key for why I struggle. I'm sure it's not those things, but realize you've been stuck in those patterns because you are blind to them because you can't see. And so, like the 10 worst moments exercise is a great example of that. I find almost universally people have stories come to mind that they dismiss initially. Oh, well, that's not one of them. If it comes to mind, write it down. Well, I got kicked out of class in the seventh grade for this and that. It wasn't even my fault. And like, well, write it down. And then. And I've done this so many times, even like my faster scale, like, well, this is the words that came to mind. So I wrote them down. And then a day or two later when I shared at group, it's amazing how the relevance of it suddenly connects. Or when I say it out loud in the group, I see something I didn't see when I wrote it. And I just, I think there's something there. So when you're doing your work, if it comes to mind, write. Don't get into this huge self analysis of everything you write down because then you're just back into performance mode of, oh, well, this doesn't sound like a very good story. I think I'll write something different. A lot of times the real stories are there and your brain or your soul is trying to tell you. But if you keep, you know, listening to that message, well, that's not a very good answer. You won't write it down. So if it comes to mind, write it down. And actually that'll make your homework a lot faster because you don't sit there and analyze for two hours. You just like, well, this is what came to mind. Here it is. And I think you'll see some really good results come of that.

Yeah. So we value here at Pure Desire creating the safest, most effective and life changing group experience that we can. And what we see is that identifying tendencies or patterns like these four that we've talked about over these last four weeks can really hinder, hinder that experience from happening. And if we do a really good job of pressing in and making sure that these things are not a part of our group, it really is going to ensure that everyone feels comfortable coming to group and can lean into their healing. So, guys, this is a great conversation. Dan, thanks for joining us, man. Appreciate it.

Slackers unite.

Yeah, baby. That's right.

We got this.

Wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, you can go to our website, PureDesire.org and start your healing journey. And if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. It's free forever. Write a review, help others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.