139 - Sex, Jesus, and the Conversations the Church Forgot w/ Mo Isom

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What is up PD Nation? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 139 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here with me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Doo doo doo doo doo. I'm loving it.

McDonald's.

Yeah, it's really healthy of you. Well, you know, I cannot think of the last time I actually had McDonald's.

Oh, I can. That's sad.

Oh, well, you know, we can talk about that later. But the connection to the podcast is it's very, very. Just like it's uncommon for me to eat McDonald's, it's very uncommon for us to get to hear a story of a woman who's struggling with her sexual issues. And that's going to be an awesome part of today's podcast.

Yes. So we've got a great episode we'll tell you about in just a minute. But first, first couple things. Subscribe to the podcast. If you have not do it, don't wait. You can find us on all the major platforms, itunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify. And if you give us a review, it helps more people see the podcast, see that it's there, help people find it. Also, make sure you follow us on social media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, just look upuredesirepdmi. And on YouTube, we are recording video of all these episodes so you can watch these interviews. And then the last thing I wanna talk about is Nick. We have done some online groups. We started online groups with certified Pure Desire group leaders. And one of the groups that we're offering is a group called Unraveled. And this is really a battle for sexual integrity for women. So let's talk a little bit about those groups.

Yeah. You know, we usually think about this as a men's issue. And one of the things we're trying to say clearly at Pure Desire is this is a people problem and men struggle and women struggle, just like the topic for today's podcast. But that's why we have groups for women who have their own struggles. And we know that often their struggle can take on a different form, that it may be more emotional in content or word driven, something they're reading. It's the draw to an old flame that we hear the stories about. Or it may be pornography, it may be affairs. Whatever it is, there's a spectrum of human sexuality and all of us are broken and struggle somewhere. So we wanted to provide a place where women who are on that spectrum of saying, there are things in my life that I wish weren't there and I'm not real sure what to do about them, that they could engage with other women that are on that same journey and a leader who's been down that road and is finding freedom and health and success. Because we just have found over and over that groups are really where transformation takes place. And so for a woman to be able to find that place, likely, as of yet, it's not going to be local because there just aren't many groups meeting around this topic. But you could jump into an online group and immediately find others that can share your story and be a part of that transformation with you.

Yeah. So we just suggest that you go to our website, PureDesire.org, look for the Join a Group page, and make sure that you find a group for you. Okay. So today we had a new friend of ours, Mo Isom Aiken. She was a collegiate athlete, really well known, played for lsu. She talks a little bit about that today in the episode and also is a speaker and an author. And we had her on to talk about her book, Sex Jesus, and the conversations the church forgot.

Yeah, it's not every day we get to interview a national bestseller. And this is one of those stories where we just heard about her book. I'd ordered it on Amazon, Reddit, and it was like, man, this story resonates with the kind of things we do at Pure Desire. And so I reached out through the channels I knew how to, and it's one of those. We've developed a friendship with Mo, and there is a lot that what she's doing and what we're doing, it resonates together. And so we're really excited to be partnering with her. And getting to have her on the podcast today is just one more piece of that relationship that Pure Desire is developing with her.

Yeah. And if you're a guy and you're listening to this conversation, just also understand that we all are a part of creating a culture where everyone knows that this is a people problem. This isn't just a man's issue. This isn't just a woman's issue. This is a people problem. It's something that we need to work on together. So, look, this conversation is great. Mo has got a lot of good content, so we hope you enjoy the episode. Mo, we are super glad to have you. Thanks for being on the Pure Desire podcast.

Thanks. Of course. This is an honor. I'm Excited to jump on here with you guys.

Yeah, we've been looking forward to today, and for a lot of our listeners, this is probably an introduction for them. Maybe some of them are familiar with you and your book, but for probably a lot of people, they're going to get to know you today. And so we're excited about that. So let's start with the very serious. Just jump right in. Questions. How did you get the name Mo? Tell us a little bit about that.

I'm so serious.

That's right. We go right to the heart of the matter here.

Yeah, here we go. Mother's maiden name was Mor, and her mother's name was Jacqueline. So they combined More and Jacqueline to make Morelan. They worked so hard on developing this beautiful name. And then I was Mary Morlan, and as soon as I was born, my dad called me Mo Monster, and so Mo stuck, and their beautiful created name was out the window, and it's been Mo ever since.

Yeah, that's great how some names stick and some are used. I had nicknames for all my kids, some of which I've forgotten and we don't use at all. So.

Yep, there we go.

Good job.

That one sucks. And then I. I grew up with the Three Stooges jokes as well as the welcome to mo. I mean, it's just constant. Oh, no, Mo works. I feel like a Mo.

Yeah, well, you've redeemed it. It's respectable now. So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, your background, where'd you grow up? Where do you live now? What do you do? What does life look like for Mo?

Sure.

Yeah.

I grew up just right outside of Atlanta, Georgia, in an area called Marietta, and grew up competitive athlete. I was a soccer player. I worked my way up through the ranks, athletically through the Olympic program, and ultimately earned a college scholarship, went to play soccer at lsu. Go Tigers. Pretty much number one in the nation right now. The polls show. Otherwise, they show one, two. We're number one. It's no big deal.

Yeah, well, by the time we're listening to this live, I. We'll either be celebrating an LSU championship or, you know, regretting that it didn't work out.

Let's not get off topic.

Go ahead and claim national champions. They look really good, and I'm excited about it. Yeah, we'll just take that into.

This is why we record. This is not. This is why we don't do this. But look, we're going to do it, okay?

Keep going.

Keep telling people.

Good point. Okay, so went, played soccer at lsu, had an amazing career there was an all American, had some, some neat goings on as a goalkeeper, graduated, came home, met my husband. So I moved back to Atlanta and met my husband Jeremiah. Shortly after we dated and married. And we've been married about five years and have three kids to show for it, three and under. And I had been sweet, speaking, writing, writing books, traveling the country, ministering, and just really saying yes to God for quite a while now. I didn't come to know Christ until the middle of college in the midst of all those highs athletically. I was dealing with a ton of adversity personally and struggled with eating disorder, had struggled with the suicide of my father and depression, anxiety, promiscuity and Christ just kind of intersected all of that after my sophomore year and revealed himself to me in a really incredible way and life just shifted completely. So thought I'd be a broadcast journalism major. He had other plans and we've been doing ministry ever since and just loved it. It's our greatest honor and doing it as a family. We see ourselves as a multi generational team at this thing. And so my husband, all my kiddos, were all in it for the long haul.

Yeah, that's pretty cool. And it's your story that first introduced me to you, just stumbling across it and the circles that Pure Desire operates in and seeing the book title about sex, Jesus and the conversations the church forgot.

Great title.

Moe's book that we'll talk a little bit about today. I just picked it up like, oh, this sounds interesting. Read it and just immediately felt like, wow, there's some things that we really hold in common and that the Pure Desire family and listeners and group members need to hear about. And I, and I think in particular what drew me to it, Mo, is just your level of openness and authenticity about your own story. And in our society in general, a woman being open about struggles with pornography and sexual issues is very, very rare. And so when you think about that story and maybe opening up that part of your life, what gave you the courage and the boldness to write this book?

Oh man. Truly, by the Holy Spirit alone, I mean literally in Acts, when it talks about the boldness that comes upon us by way of the Holy Spirit. I was fleshing out my first book, which was my testimony of coming to faith. Much of what I just shared, the identity issues, the suicide, so many broken things. Then came to know Christ and just radical shift in my life and healing, restoration, wholeness, learning. And as I'm writing out my testimony of coming to faith, I'm realizing, whoa, my sexual testimony has paralleled this brokenness, confusion, perversion, addiction. Came to know Christ and it changed everything. And it's been this journey by way of sexuality and sex, of healing, of restoration, of wholeness. And I can't just squeeze this into one chapter. I would be doing such a disservice to really a huge conversation, a huge topic that so many are wrestling with, confused about, suffering through. And so I said, okay, this is book two. I mean, God made it pretty non negotiable for me of really opening up conversations that were never had with me. I was raised up in the church, but it was like the church was assuming my family was having these harder conversations. My family assumed the church was having these conversations.

Nobody was.

Nobody was having these conversations. And so I was looking to the world to shape my understanding, my perspective, really just kind of living by this roadmap that our culture paved for me to follow by way of sex, sexuality, identity. And it was so broken. It led to so much pain, so much brokenness, so much confusion. But when I came to know Christ, there was such an unveiling of truth. And it was so painful. It was. I mean, to have, you know, your eyes kind of unveiled to the reality of everything going on was so painful. Yet every small step of faith to say, God, I see this. It's not pretty, but I'm handing it to you. Oh, man. The healing, the breakthrough, the strides forward were overwhelming. And so as I was fleshing this out, it was honestly terrifying because like you said, especially for women talking about sexuality, our brokenness, especially addiction to pornography and promiscuity, I mean, even adultery being a part of my story, it was. It seems so taboo. It seems so undiscussed. And, like, we all should have it so figured out and be prim and proper about it. But there's people deeply wounded and deeply struggling because Scripture says the power of life and death lies in the tongue. But the enemy's done an effective job of shaming us into silence. And so these issues have only continued. And so it was terrifying. But then with every, like, stroke of the pen and every chapter and paragraph fleshed out and, you know, finding the courage just to say, I'm not going to be shamed into silence. And there's a lot of people who need to hear this and see this, what does scripture say, say, is defeated by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. So if all this was going to have wounded me so deeply, it Will not be for not in Jesus name. Like this will be leveraged for his glory. And then releasing that and just bracing for like, oh, what's going to happen? This is going to be crazy. And then the absolute flood of revival and gratefulness and courage and all of these women reaching out, reading these words and it resonating with their heart. It was truly the beauty of God saying, like, just trust me, just have faith. And it's been such a journey, but it's been well worth it. Hard but holy. That's what I like to say.

Well, I love the way you explained that because I think for so many people listening, that's been their experience that they've been given permission to write the first book to tell the story about their faith journey and the things that happened that wounded them or how they recovered and met Christ. But they've had that second story playing out along with it. And most people have felt they can't tell that second story about their sexual journey. And usually it is one of a lot of brokenness and hurt and pain and there's just nowhere we can go. And so we know those two stories are operating together. But until we come to a place where we can tell both stories and see how they intersect and what God has for us in that sexual journey, it's really difficult to find any hope or healing there. And that's what I think your words do is just what you're saying is bring that hope of I'm not alone. I need to tell this story and I need to understand how God meets me here, not just keep it below the surface and only let God meet me in the safe places.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What was so, like revelatory for me was really kind of the decided disconnection from the taboo feeling, the emotional lording of navigating these things. Like really I had to look at it and say, God, you know what? Your gospel is not just a branch fixer, it's like a whole uprooter. You uproot us from our insight enslavement to sin, and you replant us in righteous soil. So if I've seen that you're uprooting my pride, my ego, my fears, my other addictions, my struggles, my pain, then I have to believe you're also uprooting these sexual issues as well. And so if I can look to your word and by your spirit, I can seek understanding, then I can disconnect the emotional fear at play here. And I can say, what does truth say? What is in your truth? What Truth do you have for me? And open my eyes, give me understanding, Let me divorce my emotions from this. Let me put my pride aside and even my shame aside and just consume the bread of life here and living water. And when we can approach that, when we can approach him in this manner, to say more of you and less of me, reveal to me whatever it is. There's. There's a beauty of understanding that comes of revelation that comes. It's like in response to humility, he gives. Well, what does he say? Like, humble yourself before me and I will lift you up. Draw near to me and I will draw near to you. So it was never like an increased weight of shame or guilt. Every step towards him in humility was a boost of, here it is clearly for you, and here is understanding and here is healing and here is hope. And it's just beautiful to be able to just approach his, his word and his throne in that manner. And he brings all things into understanding. And you realize the enemy doesn't have such a bridle on you anymore by way of your shame or your emotions.

Totally. So, Mo, you've talked about a couple things that I think getting into this next question. I think it's really difficult for anybody, specifically men. Let's just start with them. It's really difficult for a man to own up to sexual struggles for a number of reasons in the church, but I think it's even more so for a woman. And that's why we're so excited to have you on the podcast, why we love that you've written this book, that you're really making your story known and inviting other women into their own healing. And you've talked about the taboo nature and the shame. Maybe it's those two. And what else would you see are some reasons why women feel so afraid to talk about sexual brokenness in their life and why they're afraid to invite other people in and really step out into the light.

Yeah, there's a number of different reasons, a lot of different layers. I think for so long, we've heard people stand at the pulpit and shake their frustrated fists at the world about the failing morality of mankind and all of these symptomatic responses. We've thrown such stones at these symptomatic responses of brokenness. So the promiscuity, the revealing clothes, like the pregnancy out of wedlock, the evidence of sexual struggle, sexual immorality in the heart. But we've almost tried to put band aids on bullet holes by pointing out these broken things. And we've missed the deeper conversation, the deeper understanding that all of these things deeply root in a condition of the heart, in wounds, in confusion, in pain. The symptomatic response of what we do with our bodies is the overflow of what's happening in our heart. So good, I think, because for so long we've acted so much holier than thou, even as the church, we've acted like these things are just so detestable. And how could you. And, you know, we call out every bit of sexual sin, yet we. We fail to see that. That our hearts are equally and deeply impure. And. And so I think what's happened is that we've. We've missed that God's not just in the business solely of behavior modification and that if you don't measure up, you're worthless. And if you do well, then you're good enough. We've missed that he's in the deep and transformative business of heart transformation. And we all need that. All of us sinners falling short of the glory of God, even the ones who look the best on the surface or the ones who haven't made as many, you know, haven't committed as many sins that have had physical manifestation for the world to see equally can have deeply impure heart posture. And I don't know, it seems as women, like we're supposed to have it all together and be just so prim and proper and all figured out. But the reality is that we're all broken, all so fallen short of his goodness and his glory. And we're all in need of that resuscitating grace that brings us back to life. But we've missed it for a while, and we've thrown stones in the wrong places, and we've wounded people's ability to be vulnerable because they're afraid they're going to be judged well.

And we talk about that a lot. The idea that the language that we use is so important from the stage specifically, because in a lot of ways, whether it's right or wrong, a lot of people view what happens at the stage on weekends, at churches, is what holds the highest moral authority or biblical authority. And in some ways that's not actually true, but in reality, it should be something that we take seriously. And I think that too, if you think about it, if the statistics are true in the church right now, and we, you know, Barna and Josh McDowell people have been doing research now for a few years on this. If the statistics are that two thirds of the men in the church and at least a third of if not getting closer to half of the women in the church have some sort of sexual unwanted behavior, then the language that we use is what is shaming people left and right. If we don't identify that this reality is going on in our church and then speak or craft the way that we speak around that to better reach people, we're just going to keep pushing people deeper and darker into shame. And then shame is vicious. Once it gets a hold of you, it doesn't want to let go, and it's going to push you further and further into numbing out in the form, especially of this form, because it's such an easy sin to hide and to keep to ourselves. And so I think that even what you're saying is really important for churches to hear and leaders to hear that we have to start using inclusive language and we have to start having this conversation with both genders, because if not, we're just pushing people down darker and deeper corners of the soul. That's just going to. It's going to ruin their lives.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the call to holiness and the standard of holiness never has wavered. His instruction, his truth, his way has never changed. But the reality is that every single one of us have fallen short of that. And, you know, when we neglect to even include the women in this conversation, to even acknowledge them as sexual beings made in the image of God, given the gift of and equal instruction by God, even all the way back in Genesis of Sexuality, it's like we just. You dehumanize the person who's navigating a very human journey, trying to walk in the fullness and the truth of what God has for us, but often struggling and failing and fumbling. You know, those. Those percentages even, that you give, I would. I would argue in reality, they're. They're likely even far, far higher. It's like in 2016 alone on one pornographic website, we as a people consumed 4.6 billion hours of porn in one year on one website. That's 524,000 years of porn. If we are going to continue in the church to just think this is the unsaved males contributing to this statistic, then we're as naive and as blind as it comes. It's affecting men, it's affecting women, it's affecting children. I was exploring at nine years old. The average age of exposure right now to pornography is nine years old. That's the average. And so it is naive and it is foolish, really, to neglect this conversation in its entirety because it only serves the Schemes of the enemy who wants us confused, silence, uninformed and unrealistic about the very nature of his attack. And. And the attack by way of sex and sexuality over our culture is so holistic. It's really. No one is exempt.

Even in that stat you just quoted about watching videos, I know for me and my struggle, it was like, well, I never watched a hardcore video. I never went to a site like that, so I'm not like those people. But what it didn't allow me to see then was how all of my image searches or the other things that were much more, you know, they're on the periphery of pornography, but they were just as addictive and destructive in my life. I think that's what's scary to me about that stat is there's no way of counting how many people are clicking on clickbait and image searching and they're getting caught up in all this stuff that is fueling unhealthy sexuality. But because they're not like those people, they kind of justify that. Well, I'm doing okay. And I think that's what the church has inadvertently done. And you know, we love the church. Anytime we speak about flaws in the church, it's because we want to see redemption. But. But I think the church is guilty of creating that sense of, well, what those people are like. And if you follow Christ, you're not like those people. And yet the truth is back to what you're saying, Mo. At a heart level, we are. And then as it turns out, in a behavior level, we often are as well. In fact, some of the very people that have preached those messages, it comes out that they had those same struggles as well. And so just getting to a place where we quit creating categories or quit creating levels of sinfulness and just allow people, as you said, Mo, to be acknowledging we're all broken people and we need Christ's redemption in this area of our lives. Or else we're just playing a holiness game versus actually entering into the things that could help us become more holy.

Yeah, exactly. And entering in is like the hands, messy, hard, painful work. But this is what's so beautiful. I think even of Jesus when he encounters this Samaritan woman at the well, is he first off, goes out of his way, past everything taboo and culturally acceptable to meet this woman who is going out of her way to not be seen or known or acknowledged. She's out drawing water at high noon when no one would be out there. And she clearly carries such a weight of shame, it is debilitating. For her in many ways. And what I love is that he offers her living water, and she would like it. If you read through the text, he offers living water and gives some understanding. And she's like, I'll take that. I want that. And he's like, he doesn't just give it to her right away. He says, okay, go and get your husband. She's like, well, I have no husband. You know, I don't have a husband. And he's like, I know you've been married five times. The man you're living with now, you're not even married to. So he offers her this incredible saving grace, this better way, this living water. But before he really gives it to her in its fullness, he drums up that which truly needs the hydrating work of this living water. He drums up her deepest wounds, her hardest thing. And he has this sexual or really, I guess when we look at the text, we can see this at least shame acknowledging conversation with her. And he drums up the very thing that she's trying to hide and running from and has so stamped her identity. And he exchanges with her about that. And she says, how would you know all of these things about me? You must be a prophet. And if we look at the Gospels, it's the first time that Jesus explicitly states the fullness of who he is. And he says, no, I am the Messiah. He is the one who's come to redeem to save those very things that have stamped her identity for so long. He's the one who's come to write a new identity over her that is redeemed. And what I love about the Samaritan woman is she doesn't run off in shame or guilt any longer. She picks up her robes and she runs. But it's back to the town evangelizing about the Messiah, the one who knew everything about her and yet stayed at her well and offered her living water. And I think this is what's so beautiful about coming into the fullness of conversation about these things and looking to the truth and looking to the text and looking to his heart about all things sex and sexuality is we realize, oh, these chains that have bound me are the very thing that can be used to bind up the enemy. I can evangelize of the goodness of the one who's come to set me free. But it's painful, it's uncomfortable. It requires sitting with Christ, allowing him to drum up these things, these wrestling matches back and forth. And, you know, so often it seems like sexuality and the sexual issues, those are so Tender. We don't want to do that messy hard work. We would rather continue to be people who cope. But Christ didn't come so that we could be Christians coping through life. He came to set the captives free. He came that we would know freedom, healing, wholeness, hope from these things. And sometimes that means we have to get really messy. And sometimes it's really painful and sometimes it's forgiveness that we really don't want to extend because that wound came out of our own control. It was something forced upon us. But what's so beautiful is that in getting messy and wrestling with these things and surrendering them to him, it's also no longer this hypocritical game of like, well, I don't do X, Y and Z, but she does. That was like my argument for so long. I like comparative virgin banner. Like I'm a virgin, I haven't gone all the way, but I knew nothing of purity. So it's really this works based answer to God. When, yeah, we've ranked our sins, life surrender question. Like, I want all of your heart, all of your mind, all of your soul. And I'm like, well, how about I give you some semi good behavior yet? I'm living in this gray area of like everything but X, Y or Z. Sort of like what you're saying. I'm not looking at hardcore porn, but I know what my image searches are, you know, and it says in the scriptures, it's not what goes into our body that defiles us, it's what comes from our heart. Our heart is the wellspring of life and it would be good to guard it because really pure actions flow from a pure heart. Impure actions flow from an impure heart. So the reality of sitting down and saying this is messy, this is painful, but I can acknowledge in my life, I'm such a hypocrite. And all of these things truly are impure in nature. And God wants to restore the purity of my heart. Man, it's so hard. But again, it's so holy. And the freedom that comes is overwhelming.

Yeah. And I think too, it just encourages people to know that Jesus wants to heal those places, that it's okay to talk about it. And so, yeah, this is so good. Mo, we're gonna take a quick break in the conversation and talk about a new deal that we have going on. All right, so for many of you out there listening, you know about the Conquer series, we have a 10 week series that we partnered with Kingdom Works Studios to create for men struggling with, with sexually compulsive behaviors. And for a really long time we haven't really had anything to offer for women who struggle because we know that women struggle. This is not just a man's issue, this is a people issue. And so we're really, really excited now to be distributing and be partnering with Mo Isom. And Mo has created this eight part video curriculum that really was created to help start the conversation or really push the conversation conversation forward about sex and Jesus and what it looks like in the church. It's supposed to equip you with practical and applicable truths. It'll answer tons of questions. And really our favorite part is that it really presses into this really taboo topic of a woman struggling with compulsive behavior sexually.

Yeah, I think much like the Conquer series for men opens the door to these conversations for any man, it's the same for women. And Mo has become a really great friend of the ministry and we just respect her for her approach and her solid biblical foundation. But she will help women, whether they struggle or not, just help them open up these conversations that usually we're not comfortable having. And so helping women understand just some of the basic, very real questions they have about sex and marriage, having a better understanding of singleness and dating and what would help us, a woman, have a better approach. So in regards to that and if there, there are issues with pornography or perverse dreams or memories of past relationships like how do you deal with those? And that's, that's the messy stuff we often avoid. But Mo's teaching will guide people really through some solid things and, and maybe another great outcome is how to have these kind of conversations with your kids. I know moms are approaching us all the time at events like what about my kids? What about my kids? Well, Mo's going be to be able to give some really practical godly wisdom of what does it look like not only to deal with this in my life, but then to have the right kind of conversations and create the right culture in my home with my children.

Yeah. And Mo is the one who's teaching and the one who's speaking in this and she is a powerful speaker. She really is tons of conviction, tons of experience and wisdom. And we really think that you're going to enjoy this course. So if you are interested, this could be a great on ramp for you getting into an unraveled group. If you are a woman and you are struggling in this area, you can go to PureDesire.org mo that's PureDesire.org mo and you can get this video course today.

Okay, Mo, part of your story that I think a lot of people can relate to is you talk about how you grew up in a good Christian home, and yet at a very young age, you stumbled upon pornography that was your dad's. And so in your own good Christian home, it became a part of your world. Tell us a little bit more about that and about the power then that pornography had in your life at a young age.

Yeah, it was goodness. Such a huge part of my story that no one would have known about, but was so defining in so many ways. I was about nine years old when I opened the truck door of my dad's truck. And this, like, playing card, like a poker card, fell out of the back behind the seats where he would wedge trash and junk and whatnot. And I remember bending over and picking up this playing card, and I was just going to stuff it back in there to hop in the truck, and I turned it over, and it was a novelty poker card, and it was hardcore porn on it. And even as a child, I looked at this and instantly knew I didn't even know what I was seeing, but I knew what I was seeing was not right. And this wasn't my mommy, and this wasn't my daddy. And why was this in my dad's stuff? And it was like, I really think people listening, and maybe you guys as well know, that first exposure to something so perverse, so outside of God's design, so broken it. It almost sears something on you. Absolutely. Yeah. So hearing. And I remember feeling like I was going to puke. Like, I. I was nine. I didn't even know what I was seeing, but I knew it wasn't right, and I shoved it back in. And I remember jumping up in my dad's truck and, like, acting like I hadn't seen anything. And I was so ashamed, so confused, so overwhelmed. But it was so interesting how quickly that shame and that confusion turned into, like, interest and intrigue.

You're intrigued. It's like, oh, this is interesting, right?

Yeah. Why'd that make me kind of feel that way? And what was that? And I just started seeking it out. Porn is almost like a siren from the cliffs. It's like it calls out to you. It is just so perverse. But such a look into something you know, you shouldn't see. But does not the human eye want to see what it shouldn't, you know? It's like such an invasive yet intriguing look into something that God made to be the most intimate thing. And so I started seeking it out constantly. And it really found such a grip on me. And this was kind of at the time where it was hard to find. Now you hit the wrong hashtag on Twitter and you've got it in front of you. I deeply grieve generation of children growing up right now where they don't even want to see it and it's it right in front of them. Totally. This was when you had to, like, squint on the static channels or, like, go seek out, like, would dad have more back there? I mean, I was always, like, shuffling through the back of his chart trying to see did he have anything else. And it just started then. And it. It had such a grip on me. And in so many ways, it's what I look to as an understanding of feminine beauty and power. And this must be what it means to be, like, a beautiful, powerful woman. This must be what men want. So really. And I think a lot of Christian women do this. I justified even, oh, this is how I'll learn. Like, I'm not out doing this again. There was that vain virgin banner I was waving of, like, I'm so holy. I'm not doing these things right yet. I'm like, this is how I'll learn. Because one day I'll need to know for my husband yet. It's like a hit of a drug. The more I sought and found, the more numb I kind of came to it. I needed to seek out worse, more perverse, more quantity. And yet I could do all of these things behind closed doors, on a computer screen, then eventually on a phone. No one knew. No one needed to know until, you know, ultimately. Because what happens is what goes into our mind affects. Or our eyes affects our mind, affects our heart, affects our actions. And so I started pushing the envelope physically with people acting out many of these things. And I loved that they had no clue how I could know all of this stuff. And it was like, such a power rush. So wicked. It's just this power rush. And even into college, I continued to struggle with this. And it had such a grip on me that I think we'd love to justify. Like, no, I have control over this. It's just like, kind of when I want any.

We all tell ourselves, but we really don't.

Yeah.

Yeah. And we really don't. We're actually quite enslaved to this. Yeah. And I just can't emphasize enough how much this is affecting women the same way it is affecting men. Absolutely not an isolated issue. And. But goodness, especially then. Whoa. I was like, no one was going to say anything about that. And I remember after I came to know Christ, my prayer really had become really separate from anything sexual. This was just like the amazing grace. I am a sinner, like, in need of a savior. You have, like, met me and my brokenness and revealed yourself to me. The cry of my heart, my constant prayer was, God, break my heart for what breaks yours and bind my heart to thee. Give me eyes to see the world as you do. Give me ears to hear the cry of the hurting. Make me more like Jesus. Make me more like you. So this was kind of just my new believer, rhythmic prayer. And I remember about a month or so after this radical grace, you know, salvation, transformation, moment, I had had no urge to look at porn, to, you know, go to any of those familiar sites or whatnot. But a month or so later, it was just one of those days. And, yep, thoughts cropped up and, you know, suddenly I'm tempted and I remember just not thinking much of it and popping my computer open, kind of like muscle memory, just habit. And I navigated to a familiar site. And literally the instant that I saw a pornographic image, I. I could have vomited. I was overwhelmed. I slammed the computer shut and my heart is pounding like, 90 miles an hour, and I'm like, what is this? Like, this is. I don't know what's going on. I couldn't even get my thoughts together fast enough. But there was a deep grief, and I remembered, oh, wow. My prayer. God has been, break my heart for what breaks yours. Give me eyes to see the world as you see it. And suddenly I can't look at these things the same. This is an image bearing creation of God. This is not body parts made for my pleasure. This is not some disconnected production value for my ticks when I feel like it. This is an image bearing creation of God. Being abused, being hurt, feeling the need to act out whatever the circumstance may be. This is not for me to consume. It was, like, very overwhelming. And, you know, I think what is incredible is that deliverance from those struggles could come instantly, or they could be a long arc need to surrender and to continually come back to. To that prayer and that understanding. Because there was, like, that instant breaking from it, but then there was still the urges of my flesh. There's still, like we said, kind of that muscle memory or those thoughts that come that I needed to take captive and surrender to him. Like, it still is a long arc journey. And so it was very interesting to start to navigate with this, you know, fresh revelation, but then navigating Just my flesh in light of that, and continually coming back to Christ and continually praying, God, please continue this work in my mind and in my heart and over my body and really just continuing to die to my flesh so that my spirit could rise in him and deny my flesh when necessary and teach, you know, and that self control, it's such a beautiful fruit of the Holy Spirit. And it takes work, but it's so worth it. And found a lot of freedom from, really complete freedom from that struggle ultimately.

So let's talk about. Because I think we've had some episodes and we've had, you know, it feels like multiple times a year we have a celebrity or a public figure or someone and the language usually is fall into sexual sin. When we know the truth that you don't just fall into sexual sin. It's something that happens definitely over time. But, you know, with you playing at a high level, being a college athlete and then I can imagine now even too being in more of the spotlight with your book and with speaking that, it can become something that, like, almost at times I feel like the evil one really just wants to attack people who are in the spotlight because they're more visible. And so do you feel like it's been more difficult with the notoriety, the popularity, the spotlight of college athletics? And then, of course, now being a speaker and an author and all that, do you feel like it's become more difficult, easier? And what has that been like for you?

That's such a great question. Actually. No one's really ever asked that. And it's so important.

First.

Got it first.

Way to go, Trev.

I wrote the question. Yeah, that was great.

You did? Oh, yeah. Nick wrote the. Okay.

Oh, Nick gets the credit.

It's a team. We're all a team here.

Here we go.

But I wrote the question. Yeah.

Yeah. I think early on there was. There came a very clear awareness to me that the things that I had struggled with the most pre Jesus were the things I could so boldly proclaim by way of testimony. They're the things that are such powerful evidence of the work of God in our lives. And so I quickly realized, oh, these are the very things that are going to be praying prime targets for the enemy to drag me back down with. Because ultimately it's not that one sin is greater than the other. It's that that particular sin, you know, I could think of probably four or five that were so clearly right, you know, the work of God and redeeming that. I was like, those sins are going to be the Target because they'll nullify testimony. They'll be the easiest thing that someone can say, oh, well, I guess, you know, Jesus's saving grace isn't that great, because she still is xyz. So I think pretty early on there was an awareness for me of, like, this has really got to be covered in prayer, and this has really got to be walked with great discernment and integrity. And I really am going to, like, exponentially need to depend on his Holy Spirit to walk with me and guide me through these things. And what's very interesting around the sexual element is I felt like in. In college, I guess, when I had this platform athletically and a lot of eyes on what I was doing and my story, it was almost easier because that was something that I knew eyes were on me. And so I fought really hard to walk it upright and in his ways. And I was then surrounded by godly community who was cheering me on in it and, like, advocating for it. And so I was able to walk with integrity there. I think actually where more of the challenge came over time, especially after releasing the book, was that it's not the same sexual struggles or temptations that he's coming after. I'm not single anymore. It's not going to be single promiscuity. You know, I haven't struggled with porn. And years and years, it's not really that that he comes for it is the twisting or the manipulation of the season I am in that he could target or attack or confuse me on in the ways of walking upright and in integrity. And so really more of what I felt the temptation has come is the understanding of how to walk people purely in sexuality and marriage and to honor the marriage bed and to keep it pure and to honor my husband, you know, and the model that God gave us and what that looks like. And so the enemy is such a chameleon. And he's going to walk through every season with you, and as soon as you let your guard down, he's going to find a way to, you know, potentially cause you to trip or stumble in another area. And so what has been really beautiful is. And even in the release of the book, my husband and I came together and we're like, this is where he's going to come for us. So we need to really commit this to prayer. Really walk in truth, really walk in with open vulnerability conversation. Because, man, if you could cause a single person to struggle in sexual sin and fall back into it, okay. But if he could. If he could break or wound a marriage with it, then he's got even greater victory because he's wounded a covenant made before God. And so that's a lot of words to say. The attack, the efforts of the evil one, the temptations, they really never cease. I don't know that they will. Our whole lives long because he's just evil like that. But we have to be aware that the methods or the angle or the schemes may look different and continue to stay on our guard, discerning, careful, because he just, what does scripture say? He just kind of roams like a, like a roaring lion. He's just kind of always trying to find an end. So that's been more of our journey of okay, keep rolling with this, don't let it morph, don't let it change. Walk up right, put up boundaries, know our yeses and nos, you know, continue to seek him together.

Yeah, that's, I mean a great reminder that in whatever season of life we're in, we're going to have unique challenges in that season. Whether we're a high level athlete or a stay at home mom or someone in a full time ministry role. There are both advantages to that, but also disadvantages where we are susceptible. And it seems like the key really becomes an awareness of do I recognize that in this current season, what am I most susceptible to? Because it will feel attractive or it will seem good, it will seem to meet a need or fix something that I want to have help with. I'm just going after help in a way that does not honor God and, and pulls me further away from him. And I feel like that's the story you share Mo, as you talk about, and you already mentioned this a little bit earlier about waving that banner of virginity that in that season of life, when you're in college and you're involved in a lot of these things, it was that banner of virginity that almost was part of the issue because everything up until that kind of became this gray area permissible because hey, I hadn't crossed that certain line. And so that does seem to still be a major maybe teaching of the church as we really help people understand the value of virginity. But how does just that virginity based teaching maybe work against helping people understand healthy sexuality? And what did you learn about that?

Yeah, it really sort of, like I mentioned before, it's not bad. Virginity is a great.

Yeah, that's not, that's not the question.

That's not what's in question here. But to solely talk or teach or unpack virginity is to miss entirely the greater call of Christ. The greater call of the scriptures, even of purity. Because virginity is going to be a beautiful byproduct of a pure, pure heart, pure actions, pure life, pure sight, pure word. I mean, virginity is going to be the byproduct. But when we solely talk about what the work ends up looking like, what the result is, what the byproduct is, when we solely teach them, do this, don't do that, this is right, this is wrong. Obey these rules and just make sure you don't do X, Y or Z. And we miss the greater conversation of what's even going to compel obedience to right or wrong, to do this, to don't do that, then we have so massively missed the, the mark on the fullness of understanding. And also it really leads to issues when someone has then lost their virginity or they've gone on and they've done X, Y or Z, or they're so struggling in that area. The continued conversation solely of like, virginity is of God, not virginity is not of God. And that's it. That's the extent it leaves someone to think, well then, okay, so what's for me now? I've already done X, Y, Z, I've already lost that. I'm already too far gone. Why would God love me? Why would he see me or want me or know me? Like what could even be redeemed here? But. And it wounds, it wounds people to the goodness and the glory and the totally love of God, right? But when we can open up the conversation further, deeper to the root, to the heart of understanding man, maybe your virginity can't be restored literally, physically, scientifically, but your, your purity can. Can of mind, of heart, of actions, of spirit like he, that's what he does. That is who he is. And that is what his atoning sacrifice came to cover and to make new. And by his holy Spirit we can walk in truth and righteousness and purity and in abstinence, if that's what that continues to look like in singleness or in, you know, upright sexual nature within marriage. This is, this is his good and holy redemptive work that is available for all, all who would seek him and humble themselves before them and repent of their sins before Him. And so it's again, like we said, it's virginity is this workspace answer to life, surrender, question of purity. And I think we've just done a big disservice in the church when we solely hype that up and we all wear our rings and we make our vows and we, we miss what's Ever going to compel someone to abide by what God says. I got this thought one time on a flight. I can't remember if I can get the words out exactly, but I basically thought, give this generation a rule list and watch them break the rules. Give this generation an answer to the heart's deepest desire and watch them change the world. It's like, this is a generation especially. I'm a millennial, and so my heart's often on millennials. But they're so hungry to know that they're valued and that they're loved and that they're seen and that they're purposed and that they can be used. It's like, we're such doers. And he's like, come be with me. And in the becoming, the doing will pour out. But we're such doers, and we've really got to invite this generation back to the understanding of, like, God's not finished with you yet. You feel disqualified. You feel undone. You feel like you've gone too far. But he's still in the business of making all things new. And he does have plans and purpose for you, but you've got to come back to his heart no matter how far you've gone or where you are.

Yeah, I think. Well, I was thinking about a previous episode we did. We're talking about the difference between healthy or health and sobriety. And that idea that health's on a continuum. You can always be moving forward. But if it's this virginity or if it's sobriety you're just after. You're basically, you know, once you're not sober anymore, you're not sober, or once you're not a virgin, you're no longer a virgin. But health, there's steps forward and steps back. And so that idea of making sure that you understand that this is something you continue to progress in and move forward in. And look, if you open the Bible and read it, God uses broken people to do all sorts of stuff, especially people. Yeah. It's like, seriously, it is so. And I think that all of us right now, even in this conversation, are a testament to that, that God can use us. Regardless of where we're at, regardless of the story that we have, God can use us. So let's kind of continue on mo with this. You found a great deal of your healing before marriage. And this is something interesting is I was getting healthy right as I stepped into marriage, and I praise the Lord for that. But in reality, even though we start to get healthy, we still take in the Things that pornography and impurity and brokenness has taught us about sex. And so really with you getting married, was that challenging? What was that like for you? What did you learn through that experience?

Oh yeah. Woo. That was a biggie. I think this is when you can look back again. You said it before so well, Nick. And so I'll reinforce it. I love the church so much. I love the church. And so this is not a bashing of the capital C church, but it is a call all up to greater health, like you said, to more holistic understanding of these things. An issue with the church promoting this virginity vow growing up or the do this, don't do that was the conversation looked like this. Avoidance, avoidance, avoidance, don't do it, it's bad, it's horrible, it's terrible. Don't look at that, don't do that. Sex is awful, it's evil. And then stand at the altar and say, yes and say, I do. And then it's amazing. And I was like, what? Seriously, our whole lives were just like, avoid, avoid, don't do bad, awful, horrible. We're not having the conversation of the truth of sex in God's eyes. It's a beautiful gift. It's a weapon against the enemy. In the right context, it is a unifying, powerful gift under his covenant. It's a great thing. It just has parameters around it given by him. Right? But when the conversation is solely like, horrible, bad, don't do, you're a sinner. If you even think about the awful, awful, People are really standing at the altar thinking, if I just say I do, then suddenly all of this will be fixed, all of this will be better. That was really.

A bit of that is not true.

It's not true. It's not true. It's. It's almost silly to look back and think about. But there was a layer of my thinking that was like, once we get this under covenant, like we're good, finally I can move forward and it's normal, it's fine, it's good, it's right. And in the context of covenant, true, yes, sex is permissible, right? Beautiful. Enjoy it in marriage. But the reality is that I carried in so much baggage, so much confusion, so much pain, and I literally. There's a whole chapter in the book called the Honeymoon Hardship. I remember literally crying on my honeymoon, like almost every night. I was so confused because sex was nothing like I thought it was going to be. There was not this big, freeing, amazing, liberating. You know, suddenly it's in the right standing with God. And so it's all incredible. It was very confusing. It was not what I thought it was going to be. It was. And this is no belittlement of my husband. He's so incredible. But it was just disorienting because I was still so wounded and so confused. And I remember my husband finally one night as I was crying, literally, poor guy, like, wait a second. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. He just pulled me, pulled me up into his lap and he was like, you know what? He just launched into the most beautiful prayer. And it was the first time anyone in my life ever had included Christ and sex, like in the same conversation, in the same vein of understanding. And he just launched into the most beautiful prayer, I think really almost out of desperation on his own part as well. But just this invitation of God into our marriage, into our intimacy, into this new beautiful thing that had come under covenant but was clearly wounded. And he just invited Khad in to begin helping us and healing us and working these things out. And that was such a game changer for me because I'd had all this baggage and tried to handle it all on my own and thought, if I just get married, it'll all be done. But the reality is that I had never brought it to Christ. I'd never sought healing, I'd never sought wholeness, I'd never sought health. I love what you said. It's kind of like the difference between goals and rhythms. That's what my friend Jeff talks about. A goal kind of has this, like, marker, this end mark.

Yeah.

A rhythm is the daily, constant, learning, growing rhythm of our life. And I had never approached anything sexually in that way before God. And so it was a beautiful start for us. And like I said, it was just a start. And it invited Christ back in, into the equation of intimacy, into his rightful place. And it began a beautiful journey of healing and wholeness for us. And it helped us, I think, understand to marriage so much more beautifully that it wasn't. It was beautiful for us. It was a start for us to invite Christ even into the conversation, into understanding, and then start seeking truth together and healing together. You know, I think a lot of the times people come to the altar with all different types of backstories. One has waited their whole life and think they elevate sex, like to idle status. This is going to be the thing that's going to be so amazing and fix everything. And we've elevated it, the creative thing, above the Creator. And then we're let down or some have known no boundaries. They've always accessed whatever they've wanted whenever they wanted it. And then they get married and they think that the spouse is that very same thing for them, whenever, wherever, you know. And that's not the reality of two people navigating something together. And you know, it's just. Or there's the person who's known brokenness and then repented and then struggled again and then repented, and it's that up and down roller coaster ride in singleness. And so then they come into marriage and it's just disorienting. It's the up and down roller coaster ride of like, this feels so wrong, but I guess it's right. But should I repent? But it's like very confusing. So I would say all of that to say, I think in singleness, especially right this moment, his mercies are new every morning. It's the perfect time to begin navigating healing and wholeness around these things, because it's layered when you get into marriage as well. But whether single, whether married, today is the right time to start seeking him on these things. And yeah, it's beautiful.

Yeah, that's such a great summary, I think, of really what we're saying today and what your book says so well is that we've got to be able to attach our faith journey to our journey in sexuality, that Christ is a part of that. And for so many people, just like for you on your honeymoon, that is a foreign language of what does Christ have to do with my sexuality? And I think you do that beautifully throughout the book. You've done that so well today. And so just as we wrap up this podcast, what would you want to say to listeners? Is there a concluding thought or just a word of encouragement to someone who's maybe where you were struggling with brokenness and shame and not sure what to do with it? How. How would you encourage our listeners today?

Oh, that's. It's just, it's awesome. It's such a beautiful invitation. What I was even just saying when I was in that season, I would have loved to hear someone say, you know what? His mercies are new every morning. Right now is the right time to begin seeking understanding and surrendering these broken pieces and allowing these wounds, though painful, to be tended to and to heal. I wouldn't waste another minute if that's you. I wouldn't waste another day. I wouldn't. I'd break up with that boyfriend who's dragging you into this. I would sever that relationship in singleness or in dating, I would immediately find accountability for the struggles with pornography. I would do whatever it took to know that his mercies are new today. But he also says, number your days, know that they're valuable and so don't waste time. And I just think so often of the woman who was caught red handed in adultery because so many of us, that's us, we've like been caught red handed or it's all come to the surface. And it's why we're even seeking any of this, even listening to this podcast, we know it's there, right? And she's caught red handed. And everyone has a stone to throw. And that kind of rewinds back to what we were saying of why it's so shameful for women. Everyone's got a stone to throw because oftentimes our symptomatic responses are more visible and more shameful. But everyone had a stone to throw to this woman. And it was Christ who came into that mess, right into the middle of it and bent down and said, those who have no sin can cast the first stone. And he gives it time and stones start to fall all around him. And when he looks up to this woman again, he says, where are your accusers? And she says, they're gone. You know, no one's thrown a stone. And he said, then I don't condemn you either, but go and sin no more. In response to his great love and mercy that he steps past everything that's taboo to meet us in our deepest, most revealing, most shameful red handed wounds. Yet he doesn't throw a stone. And he reminds us that no one else's words or thoughts or judgments or condemnation have the power to cast a stone at us, either by his grace that stones fall and that he looks us in the eyes and he says, I don't condemn you right now, today my mercies are new and fresh. Go and sin no more. And it's such a compelling, crazy, radical, nonsensical love. I don't get it for a moment because I was the worst, I was like. Yet embracing that today, right now, and saying then whatever it takes, whatever it costs me, whatever amount of time, whatever energy, whatever group, whatever video, whatever God you would have of me, I want to walk in response to, to that great mercy right now. I think that would be my greatest encouragement for anyone listening. Because no step of faithfulness or obedience is ever a waste. It's always, I can't even explain how powerful and how beautiful the freedom is that comes from it. And so it's worth it. It's really worth it. Break up with the boyfriend. That's my final word.

Boom. As you guys can tell, Mo's awesome. She's got great stuff. We do suggest you check out her book, stay up to date with her. Here are some things real quick to stay to date with her. On social media, it's just OISOM online is moisom.comm-o I s o-m.com we also have Mo, you've got a video course. We're going to have that video course up on our website, PureDesire.orgmo-video you can also buy her book, Sex, Jesus and the Conversation that the church forgot on our website as well. PureDesire.org Mo, mo, thanks so much for your time. I know you got little kids running around and doing all that stuff and you're. You're busy. You're doing amazing stuff. Thanks for spending some time with us.

Hey, thank you, guys. I appreciate it. Yeah.

We hope that today's conversation gives you hope and healing and know that it's possible. Pure Desire and Mo are both passionate about helping give you a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing, healing journey. And look, if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, please do it. Keep the conversation going. Write a review, share it on social, tell your friends about it, and get the word out. And as always, never stop being healthy.