142 - Facing Your Fantasies w/ Drew Boa

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

Hey, hey, hey, people.

I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 142 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Semba.

That's my secret captain. I'm always ready.

Is that a play off of what Hulk says in Avengers?

You know, anytime I use an Avengers reference, you are like, right there. Which I'm proud of, because lately, at least the last few podcasts that I've listened to, I've been using references. You're like, I got no. Yeah. And I realized because I'm pulling them from the 80s and 90s, and you were like 2 and 3. And so it's better if I could use ones when you were an adult. And we can relate on those topics.

I was too in 90. I wasn't too throughout the 90s. Trevor hung out in the age of 2 for 10 years.

3 year old.

That's great. Yeah. And listen, if you don't have Disney plus, go do it. Maybe we can also get them as a sponsor. Okay, a couple quick things. Subscribe to the podcast. If you're not subscribed, just do it. It's free. You can find us on all the major platforms. And look, if you give us a review, it actually helps people find. The podcast means a lot to us. Just, yeah, please go do that. Second thing. Follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, your DesirePDMI. And if you like to consume video content. Got some of the episode up on YouTube as well. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Okay, so we had Drew BOA on today's episode, and we love Drew. Drew is, I believe, a psap. He also has a ministry called Husband Material where he's helping single men quit porn. And we just. We asked him, we talked to him about facing our fantasies.

Great episode. Drew's a great guy. Young guy in his 20s that really understand some things that, honestly, I wish I would have understood in my 20s. And this topic is so crucial because, you know, I've been in seven pillars of freedom groups for men for 10 years now. And there's a section there where we ask guys to talk about what are your deepest, darkest fantasies? And when that comes up, it's like, you know, eyes hit the floor, cheeks get flushed. Everyone's like, oh, you know, we're kind of hemming and hawing. And I've heard a lot of guys that just feel like, I don't See the point in this, like we should. Shouldn't we just ignore these things and try to not ever think about them? And so I think today's episode really reveals why it's so crucial that we not only name them, but we understand them. We understand what's going on. And Drew's going to shed just a ton of light on that today.

And his honesty and boldness is refreshing. So I think you guys are really going to enjoy this episode. Drew, BOA We've been wanting to get you on the podcast for a while now. Thanks for being here, man. We're excited to have you.

Me too.

That's it. Anything else you want to add before we jump in, or.

Well, you know, I guess we have a podcast episode to record, so if you want to hear more, stay tuned. This is going to be an awesome episode.

Right on. So today we want to press in on sexual fantasies. Man, this is a really difficult topic in general, I think, you know, in conversations that we have. And Drew, I'm sure that you have too. This is an area that can seem super intimidating, and we're not really sure where to start, what to do, what it looks like to battle these. And so we're going to jump into this and really figure out today how to do this on the road to recovery. But before really we jump in. Drew, maybe some of our listeners don't know you. Don't know what you do, that you have a book, that you're a big deal, that you live in California. Right. Which is great. So will you just introduce yourself to our listeners? Tell them about yourself, what you do?

Yeah. My name is Drew. I am a small deal, but I am a big person. Not many people realize I'm 6 foot 7. Oh, my gosh. So if you ask me how tall I am, depending on whether I think you have a sense of humor, I might say 5 foot 19.

All right, that's good.

Something like that. But I'm 27 years old. I live in Santa Barbara, California. Sucks here. Yeah. So I went to Wheaton College. I've been a stay at home dad for a couple years, but. But the Holy Spirit led me into this ministry where I get to use my story of freedom and healing from sexual addiction to help other guys. So I wrote a book called Redeemed Sexuality, and I started this ministry called Husband Helping Men of God Quit Porn. That's awesome. Okay, so we're going to talk about fantasies, and you might be wondering, like, why am I the guy to talk about fantasies? And I am not the guy But I have learned so much, and I feel like my freedom from porn went to a new level when I finally understood what my sexual fantasies are all about. So sexual fetishes, power and domination and even a little bit of exhibitionism have been part of my arousal template, as Dr. Ted would say. And really learning what that was all about gave me what I believe is permanent freedom from pornography. That's awesome.

Yeah. Well, I really think it's the purpose of why we're doing this episode, because so many people find, you know, in their journey early on, they can find some freedom from acting out, from the, you know, the external things, but they feel like that internal battle of the fantasies. I just hear from a lot of people, they feel like it's unwinnable. It's like, can I even control that? It's like these things just happen. They. They seem to come into my mind without even trying. And so I think it can be an area we feel really defeatist, and yet there is hope, and that's why we're doing this podcast. So, Drew, for some of our listeners, you just used the phrase arousal template, and I think that's a really important concept that connects to a lot of what we're going to talk about today. Say a little bit more about the arousal template, like, when we use that phrase, which to us may be common, but for a listener, if they heard it for the first time, they're like, what on earth are you talking about? Explain the arousal template a little bit for our listeners.

Yeah. The arousal template is a concept Originally developed by Dr. Patrick Carnes in his research many decades ago, and it came to us in the Christian community through Dr. Ted Roberts and Dr. Mark Laser, and more recently, Jay Stringer has been doing a lot of work on this. Also, Pure Desire has a great podcast episode on the arousal template, which you should go listen to.

We'll drop that in the show notes.

But what is it? In your words, what is it?

The arousal template is like a cocktail. It's a mix of. Of all the sensations that you experience as sexually arousing. They are attractive. You're magnetically drawn to them, whether it's smell, sight, touch. For me, there were very specific certain things that would turn me on and still turn me on to a degree that felt like they had a chokehold on my life, Like. Like they are not just sexual preferences. They are like magnets pulling me in.

Yeah.

And that is the difference between. That's one of the differences between a sexual fantasy and sexual preference. A preference is haphazard. You know, maybe you like blonde hair, or maybe you like curly hair, or maybe you like a certain color eyes. Everybody has preferences. A fantasy, however, is much more elaborate. There is a story involved. There are power dynamics. There's something going on that makes you feel sexually aroused. And each of us has a template. It's kind of like a frame. And something in that frame turns us on. And that's usually what we don't talk about in our purity groups, accountability groups. We'll talk about our behavior. We'll talk about all of the actions that we're taking. Very rarely do we discuss the specifics of what we find sexually attractive.

Totally. Yeah. I know early on in my recovery when I met with Dr. Ted Roberts and he started asking about arousal type stuff and what I looked at, I was like, whoa, whoa. This is really personal, Ted. I don't really want to answer these questions. And he said, no, I mean, this is understanding you and what's driving you, you know, now we're getting into the content of the episode we're going to do right now. But I just. I think that's the point, is that it's specific to you, it's unique to you. And when we talk about fantasies, I think a lot of people just feel like, well, isn't this just a guy thing? All guys like that. And certainly there are some similarities, particularly if you grew up in a similar context or culture. But to understand that you are a unique person and your past, your background, your experiences have shaped you. That's what we're looking at with fantasies. So, Drew, let's talk a little bit more about these fantasies. Where do they come from?

Yeah, sexual fantasies come from your story. They might appear random. For me, I was like, why do I like this random stuff? I don't even like the fact that I like this stuff, but I do. Does that mean I'm a freak? Does that mean I'm a horrible person? No, it means that my story is showing up in this imaginary scene, which is super sexually attractive to me. And most of us don't understand exactly where that's coming from. And that makes it so much harder to resist those fantasies. So where do they come from? They come from mostly trauma from early childhood and either repeating it or reversing it. Usually it's a combination of both. Is this a good time to talk about my specific fantasies and what that's looked like for me?

Hey, you be as vulnerable as you want to be. You know, keep in mind we have male and female listeners, so. Yes. Yeah.

Okay. All Right. So one theme of my sexual fantasies was power and domination. So in the images and videos that I would masturbate to, either I was the one in control, calling the shots, getting what I want and the other person was submitting to me and going along with it, or they didn't like it and they were resisting me, but I was still getting what I wanted. Yep. And that was disturbing to me. Well, if we use this lens of the arousal template and specifically the questions, what could this be repeating and what could this be reversing? I asked the question, okay, when have I felt like I had a lot of power in my life? What could this be repeating? Well, I've never really felt that way. Well, when have I felt the opposite of that? When have I felt the opposite of powerful? And that took me back to growing up. I moved around frequently. I lived in the usa, Puerto Rico, Mexico, came back to the usa, Canada and then Texas, which is the usa.

But it's a specific global man there.

It's its own country. We know.

Yeah. So I went all around North America and the last move, when I was 13 years old, from Canada to Texas, made me feel so powerless. And not surprisingly, that 13 year old boy, he was the one who first encountered and became hooked on pornography. So when my family moved, actually my parents decided without my sister and I that we were going to go to Texas. After moving around so much, Canada was the first place where I really felt at home. My family was from Canada. I was thriving, I was flourishing. I was in a small private all boys school. And then we went to Texas, which is a very different culture, had a huge public school with boys and girls. And my dad actually moved a year ahead of our family because he knew how hard it was going to be and he thought it would be easier for us to be without him for a year still in Canada. So I felt abandoned by my dad. I felt betrayed by both my parents because this decision was made without us. I was floundering in Texas, stopped playing hockey and I spent a lot of time at my computer alone playing video games and thinking about the other girls in my class and how I had no idea how to relate to them coming from this small all boys school.

Yeah.

And that's where my fantasy life developed. Yeah, that's where I developed a sexual fetish that is very specific to middle school girls. That's where I wanted more than anything to be able to interact with them, to be able to get back what I had in Canada. Yeah, I wanted to stop feeling powerless and helpless. And these fantasies were offering me a solution. Even though it was imaginary, it was a solution to my deeper problem, which was feeling powerless.

Yeah. Yeah. I've heard it said that a lot of our sexual struggles relate to getting stuck in an era of our life and we've never matured past it. And so we find ourselves drawn to something maybe from, you know, childhood or that feels inappropriate now as an adult. It's looking and going, oh, I just got stuck there. And I need. I need some help to see how to keep maturing and growing and. But I love the two questions you said, and I think for listeners, it's something they could write down and process for themselves, where you said, either what am I repeating? Or what am I reversing? And I think to look into our fantasies and ask that question, am I either repeating something that made me feel a certain way, or am I trying to reverse something that made me feel a certain way? And seeing that underneath those fantasies is really emotions that at the end of the day, it's about the emotions and what we're feeling. Yeah.

So let's kind of press into that even more because I think the word fantasy by itself is not sinful, but in this arena, is having fantasies bad? Is it sinful? Let's talk about that.

Yeah. A fantasy is a symbol of what we desire. So are desires bad or sinful? No, they're good. God created them.

Right.

Because I fantasize of being 6 foot 7 and I never get that in my life. I'll never, ever get there.

I fantasize about being Canadian. So it's all good.

Great. Keep going, man.

Keep going.

Yeah. So God created us with desire and sexual desire, and those desires are good and they are broken and they are twisted. And the same goes for our fantasies. You can have fantasies that are in line with God's design. And while trying to escape reality and dwell in a fantasy world would not be a faithful response to the gospel, choosing to hope and dream and love and long for something good, that's part of how we're made. So your fantasies are really like a mirror. Patrick Carnes used this example from Harry Potter, the mirror of erised. So erised is desire spelled backwards. And Harry Potter would look into this mirror and he would see his parents, because his parents died when he was a baby and he wanted more than anything to be reconnected with his parents. So when he looks into the mirror, he sees that little boy. And so when we look into our sexual fantasies, it's not just an image, it's not just a video. We can see through them, to the story behind them. And the little boy or the little girl on the other side.

Yeah, I think for me, in this arena, too. And Jay Stringer, you know, who's now a friend, really, of all of us here, like, when he started talking about the enmeshed mother and really the culture that you grew up in, for me, it made sense. Finally, it clicked. And he uses the language of listening to your lust or listening to your fantasies. Right. And he gives this great analogy of inviting your lust into your house and having a conversation with it, which if you've never heard, that's a little weird, but believe me, it's solid. But this idea of I. And I like what you're saying about the replication, because that's what I pursued for most of my life was trying to find women who were all about me and my life and getting enmeshed in it and taking power and control because. And it's not just my mom, but it's also just the culture I grew up in. That family was important, and it was tight and it was about control. And so for me, you know, lack of relationship and tons of rules, especially up front in life. For me, when I finally realized that that's what's really going on is I'm trying to relive that or trying to reclaim that or whatever language you want to use was super helpful because it diminished the shame of the fantasies that I have, because I think a lot of us carry that. Why do I think this, like, for you, I mean, talking about middle school girls, like, that's a scary thing to admit in general. And you're afraid, are people going to think I'm gross or weird when in reality it really is just a lens to look through to get back there. And I think that when we're able to do that, we can see that though our sexual fantasies may be sinful in nature, it actually is a cry to find that wound and find those emotions underneath and find healing. And so it's okay to maybe feel guilty about the fantasy, but don't allow shame to creep in, because, man, that's just the weapon of the enemy that I think so many of us fall into.

Amen.

Yeah, I think it's an important conversation because I think in the Christian, you know, circles, the way we try to handle fantasy is really the, you know, shut it down. Don't have the whole idea of shut down anything to do with imagination where we need to remember that the ability to imagine and dream is God given. I mean, and it's really a beautiful thing that can be used for such good in our lives when we allow, you know, fantasy to be of who God's making us to be. That if it's not sexual fantasy, fantasies actually very, very powerful in helping create us. So I think we have to see through. Just like you're saying, Drew, not that fantasy is bad, but where does it take me? And obviously we're not saying you should just ignore fantasy. And if you're off daydreaming about sexual things like that, that's no big deal to see through it, but to recognize that ability to fantasize is God given. And look at how do we redeem it? So to go a little deeper with it, Drew, what do fantasies. And you're kind of alluding to this already, but what do fantasies teach us or tell ourselves?

Yeah, they tell us what we deeply desire. It's that mirror. And you look into it. The thing is, you need to interpret your fantasies. They're not just easy to understand at face value, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. Because fantasies are not verbal, they're visual. And so, okay, when you look into your fantasies, how do you interpret it? I think there's a really good framework. It's in a three part series I created with Jay Stringer called the Sexual Fantasy Framework. And you guys can find this in the show notes where we go into. Okay, how do you understand and interpret your fantasies? I think the most important thing is to ask those questions about repetition and reversal. When have I felt this way before or when have I felt the opposite? When have I seen this stuff before or when have I seen the opposite? You know, for me, it was power giving me power when I felt powerless. I have another one. Let's just go through the whole closet.

That's great, man. Let's do it.

Do you have your arousal template out in front of you right now? Is that what you're doing here?

We're now going to show it on the screen for all of our viewers in Drew's handwriting.

Okay. This is a story not many people know about me. So when I was in college, I got onto a floor in my dorm that was known as the naked floor. And initially for me, this was very uncomfortable. But within two weeks, I was the most naked person on the whole floor. And I would, like, do everything naked. And I just embraced it. I loved it. I felt a sense of affirmation in my body. I felt a sense of acceptance from my peers, and it was a little bit puzzling. To some people, for me, I felt like I was coming to a new level of self acceptance. Later on I realized I think I actually get a little bit of pleasure from being seen naked. And I remember changing in front of windows and not caring who would look in the window. And eventually I thought, this is almost unhealthy. Like I'm choosing to walk in front of a huge window without wearing clothes on. Like, this is borderline exhibitionism. And so I would ask these questions, okay, when have I felt this way before? When have I experienced other people seeing me naked before? And it took me back to the summer after sixth grade. I was camp and we were playing sand volleyball. It was a boys cabin against a girl's cabin. And I was playing in my pajamas. I could see people were giving me weird looks. And something was off about this game. And I just played. I was the tall kid at the front of the net trying to spike the ball in front of these girls. And after the game, one of the guys in my cabin pointed down to my pants and he said, hey, hey, look down there. There was a huge hole in my crotch.

Oh, no.

And my genitals were exposed to everyone. I felt so, so embarrassed.

My gosh, yes.

I crossed my legs, I crumpled, I hobbled back to the cabin. And one of the worst parts was my friends saw this. Like I had two close friends in this cabin and they let me do it. They didn't stop me. I don't blame the girls for not saying anything, but that should not have happened. And this, this was a shaming experience for me. And I realized, wow, I'm repeating and reversing that moment because instead of being the one who was exposed and ashamed, now I get to be the one who decides who gets to see my body. And I felt a sense of pride. And after, after that became clear to me, I stopped wanting to allow other people to get a glimpse of my naked body. I had a lot more self respect. I realized that behavior was ultimately trying to reverse what had happened to me earlier. And when you can connect the dots like that, it opens the possibility for a new story to be written. And this is one where I am covering my body because I love my body, because I respect it. And so that's another example of how interpreting your sexual fantasies can lead to a new level of healing.

Yeah, I think, and I want to be careful how I say this, but to some degree, when we realize that fantasies are really revealing brokenness, it almost normalizes trauma or wounds that we have. Where I think for me early on in my story, you know, I haven't been sexually abused. My parents didn't get divorced. I grew up in a Christian home. We all follow the Lord. I certainly don't have any trauma. And in a lot of ways, this is just a revelation or an open window or door to see that I am broken. I do have parts of. Of my story that I carry wounds from. And I think that a lot of ways, and they say this across the board in so many different areas of life, that awareness really is that first step, being able to identify, yes, this is going on. This is where it is. And without that, without being able to see that, I don't think I'd ever taken any steps forward in my recovery. And so I think that that's what I can see from fantasies telling me about myself is that I am broken. But then also understanding that once you're able to see something is broken, then we can go about fixing it. Like, if you're just going along in life and not identifying that something is broken, you don't know that it could be better. You don't know that this thing could work better. This life could be better. And so, yeah, for me, I think it was just. It normalized trauma, put it into a new filter for me where I could understand that I could heal.

Yeah.

Yes. Can I add to that, please? So it shows us that we need healing. It also shows us that we are not freaks. We are not the worst. We're not horrible people for what we fantasize about. And there's also a sense of, hey, it's not your fault.

Yeah, there's a reason. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I so appreciate you sharing that story, Drew. I mean, it's deeply personal and deeply revealing, but I think in this area, this gets personal fast. And for some people, even if in your story there's a cringe factor, it's only because for themselves, there's a cringe factor. And when we start to look back at some of our early stories or things that happened to us, things maybe we had no choice over, there's that cringe factor, like, oh, I don't know if I want to look at that. I don't know if I want to talk about it. Let's just deal. And that's why it's in some ways more comfortable to just deal with the behavior or the pornography or the external things, because that internal stuff in the past, it gets messy and sticky and ugly quickly. And so if we're unwilling to look at it, we'll miss these connection Points that for you, you said just opens up this whole world of possibilities. How do I find healing? And so I hope for listeners that if you were a little uncomfortable as Drew shared his story, it's probably because we grew up in environments and this is my story where we were not given any language or context to understand how to talk safely or in a healthy way about anything sexual, particularly anything that happened, you know, early in life and that just felt we didn't know how to explain it. Even a willingness to, with wisdom and health, go there and just say, what was I learning? What was I feeling? What messages did I take out of this? That's really where transformation comes in a whole new way.

Great conversation so far, guys. Let's take a quick break and we're going to let you know about a new video course that we have to offer. Alright, so for many of you out there listening, you know about the Conquer series. We have a 10 week series that we partnered with Kingdom Works Studios to create for men struggling with sexually compulsive behaviors. And for a really long time we haven't really had anything to offer for women who struggle because we know that women struggle. This is not just a man's issue, this is a people issue. And so we're really, really excited now to be distributing and be partnering with Mo Isom and Mo has created this eight part video curriculum that really was created to help start the conversation or really push the conversation forward about sex and Jesus and what it looks like in the church. It's supposed to equip you with practical and applicable truths. It'll answer tons of questions. And really our favorite part is that it really presses into this really taboo topic of a woman struggling with compulsive behavior sexually.

Yeah, I think much like the Conquer series for men opens the door to these conversations for any man, it's the same for women. And Mo has become a really great friend of the ministry and we just respect her for her approach and her solid biblical foundation. But she will help women whether they struggle or not, just help them open up these conversations that usually we're not comfortable having. And so helping women understand just some of the basic, very real questions they have have about sex and marriage, having a better understanding of singleness and dating and what to what would help us, a woman, have a better approach in regards to that? And if there, there are issues with pornography or perverse dreams or memories of past relationships like how do you deal with those? And that's, that's the messy stuff we often avoid. But most Teaching will guide people really through some solid things. And, and maybe another. A great outcome is how to have these kind of conversations with your kids. I know moms are approaching us all the time at events like what about my kids? What about my kids? Well, Mo's going to be able to give some really practical godly wisdom of what does it look like not only to deal with this in my life, but then to have the right kind of conversations and create the right culture in my home with my children.

Yeah.

And, and Mo is the one who's teaching and the one who's speaking in this and she is a powerful speaker. She really is touching. Tons of conviction, tons of experience and wisdom and we really think that you're going to enjoy this course. So if you are interested, this could be a great on ramp for you getting into an unraveled group. If you are a woman and you are struggling in this area, you can go to PureDesire.org mo that's PureDesire.org mo and you can get this video course today. All right, so let's take a turn here, you know, talking about what fantasies are. Let's get into more practical stuff, stuff here. So what does it look like to overcome these fantasies? We've identified what fantasies are, what they reveal to us. Now how do we put some stuff into play that allows us to heal from these?

Yes. So the solution is not avoid your fantasies.

Right.

Seriously or suppress them or control them. Ultimately I feel like we can even do that in a spiritual way. Like okay, you're hit with a sexual fantasy, run away, flee, sexual immorality, which is valid, that's a valid Bible verse. Or I'm going to remind myself of the truth as hard as I can. Right. Slap a Bible verse on that thing and see if you can overpower it. Ultimately those kinds of strategies keep our brain in fight or flight mode, the limbic system, which is ultimately a fear response. So what does it look like to overcome these fantasies rather than taking a fear based response of running away from the fantasies or trying to overpower them, A love response. And you can only do that when you can see through the story to the little child on the other side. And this is part of what I call reparenting myself. Once I can face my fantasies and trace them back in time to the memories at the core of them, then I can start a relationship with that little boy on the other side, the 13 year old kid who moved from Canada to Texas, the 11 year old who was at summer camp and relate to him in love. And when I can see through the story to my younger self and I can be sad about what happened to him, I can be mad that it shouldn't have happened to him, then I'm no longer dealing with sexual temptation. I'm redeeming. I'm joining God in redeeming my life. And that's a completely different frame of mind. It's the feeling of curiosity over what happened and compassion for myself that fight or flight can never provide.

Yeah, well. And with it, in those moments, inviting the Holy Spirit to reveal to us what we were feeling and thinking. Because for some people, Drew, that haven't done the kind of work you have and have the background in this, this might be a new experience for them. We're like, I don't know. And so I think in that loving manner, to say, holy Spirit, would you help me to see what I was going through? Would you help me to see what did I really feel and learn from this? And then would you help me to see how you felt about me and what you were saying in this time and where were you at? And understanding that his presence was there even then, whether or not we were aware of it, I think can start to change the experience from one of only a negative to a recognition of his presence with us walking through that really hard, difficult, traumatic experience and. And start to change how we feel about it, because we've got that presence of the Spirit walking through it with us. Yeah.

Yeah. Once we go back and we find the memories, we find the wounding experiences, we can invite Jesus into them and then he can transform them. Yeah.

And I think it's important, too, though, to invite other people into that to some degree. I mean, I think anything of value in life is done in relationship. And this doesn't mean that, to use Drew's example, you don't come on a podcast that's got thousands of listeners every month and share some of your darkest stuff. It's not that it's really inviting people that you know and you love and you trust into your process of this. This is why, you know, peer desire groups were so impactful for me, because I could be honest about these things and guys could ask questions and I could invite perspective and really dialogue with people about it, because, and this is something I'm learning, continual, like, just ongoing in life, is that the Holy Spirit is just as able to talk through someone else as he is through scripture. He can use someone else's words, someone else's experiences to heal me and to heal my wounds as well. So I think that there's an element of inviting other people into the process and into the healing as well. That's going to be powerful.

Yeah. So, Drew, as we move towards the idea of healing and finding health in these areas of our sexual fantasies, do you have any tools that you recommend or specific strategies that men and women could start to use to overcome and find health and freedom over sexual fantasies?

Yes. I just created a resource with Jay Stringer called the Sexual Fantasy Framework Free three part video series. We have a worksheet that you can use to face your sexual fantasies, see the stories behind them, and stop living in the past. I think this is an awesome way to engage with your arousal template without having to learn a lot of psychological concepts.

Yeah.

Another thing you can do is join a pure desire group or get a pure desire counselor who can help you with this. Sign up for one on one coaching with me and we will specifically walk through the stories behind your sexual fantasies.

Yeah, we'll make sure to drop that stuff. Information for that in the show notes as well. I think a couple other things other than the community, because that's such a huge part for me. But I mean, there's something in the business world called an after action report. And basically it could also be a crash site analysis that you basically are like a detective going back to the scene of the crime or the scene of the fantasy, if you will, and being a detective asking questions, trying to investigate, trying to figure out what happened, why did this, why did I feel this way at this moment, in this day? What are some of the things I was feeling going into it and then really being able to. Because that could be a front door really, to going in and through to find the story of what actually happened. I think that's really, really helpful. And then, you know, I think that a tool everybody should use in general is just the faster scale. Because I think that if you find yourself going down the faster scale, you can identify, okay, I had the fantasy on Tuesday morning at this time, what was going on. And for me, when I've used the faster scale, I would circle each of the examples and then put a date by it so I can see, okay, on Sunday I was feeling this way, and then on Monday this happened and this is how I was feeling. No wonder I felt that way on Tuesday because those situations replicated those emotions. And that's why I went to the fantasy. And so I think those are two other tools I'd use.

Yes, the faster scale is an excellent tool, as everybody at Pure Desire knows Another tool I created is called the Floss method. Floss and I have a worksheet on this that you can all access in the show notes. The Floss method goes like this. You first name the fear, fight, flight or freeze response that comes up in you when a sexual fantasy takes control. Do you feel like running away? Do you feel like powering up? Do you feel like shutting down? And then you name a lie. If you're able to see, okay, there is a lie here that I'm believing. If not, you can come back to that later. Then the OS of Floss is origin story where you ask, okay, when have I felt this way before? When have I felt the opposite? That's where you are going back into your memories and trying to find what is this repeating, what is this reversing? And then the last S is sadness. Once you can find your younger self to enter into that with the love of God and experience sadness over what happened to you. So that's the Floss method. And yeah, that's sometimes when I get.

Triggered, that's really important.

I gotta floss it out.

Right?

And usually it's best to floss it out with an ally or a mentor. Yep.

Yeah, yeah, I think that idea the sadness or the grieving what was lost, grieving what should have happened, grieving the support we should have had, grieving what our parent. You know, there's so many things that in a perfect world, if we lived in the Garden of Eden, we would not have experienced. And so that's when we think of sadness because some people I know are going to kind of rebel or inside and like, well, you know, my childhood wasn't that bad. I had a good Christian family, things were fine. You know, what's this whole point of going back and boo hoo my past and like, well, yeah, I mean you can be thankful for the good things you did have, but recognize we did not grow up in the Garden of Eden. It's not heaven, it's not perfect. And because we live in a broken world, there were things we need to grieve that maybe we even had parents, that what made us feel abandoned was how much they were working for God in the church and helping people and serving. And so through a Christian lens, we look at that like, oh, it's so wonderful and they're such godly people. But if we're honest, the six year old self inside of us felt uncared for, unneeded and in the way. And, and we need to grieve that in a perfect world, our Parents wouldn't have had to be off ministering to other people because God would meet everybody's needs and our parents would just be there for us. And so that idea of grieving is. Is so important and appreciate you bringing that up. And also Drew's mentioned the arousal template that's in our workbook. So if you're in a pure desire group and maybe you even kind of skipped through that lesson, like, ah, this. I don't really get this. I'd go back to that. And really, even if you need to, you know, print it out on larger paper so you can really process it, because to me, it's kind of like this treasure map of your life that you see my current struggles, my past experiences, my core beliefs, the lies, and you just kind of look as a sleuth to go, what are the connection points? Where do the dots line up? And trust that God will really reveal some stuff through that.

Yeah. Yes. And when you enter into grief, when you enter into sadness, that is evidence of love. That is evidence of self compassion. When you can do that, you can engage in self care. You can soothe yourself rather than trying to control the negative emotions.

Yeah.

Have you guys seen the movie Inside Out?

Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh, I cry every time.

Yeah.

I mean, in that movie, Sadness and enjoy together.

Right?

That's right.

Sadness and happiness.

Yeah. Yeah. That'll be a whole nother podcast. Grieving.

We should just do an inside out podcast.

We should. That's great. Movie review. Pure desire. Movie review. Okay, so let's keep going forward because we can get off topic super fast. Okay, Drew, let's just get right to the point here. And I think that this is a question. I mean, even as we were thinking through these questions, this is one that I was just like, ooh, I'm excited about this one. Do these sexual fantasies ever go away?

Do fantasies ever go away? It's kind of like asking, do my desires ever go away? Do my dreams ever go away? Well, they can change and there's a lot of hope because they can lose their power. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And I find myself when I'm sexually intimate with my wife, sometimes I will remember those fantasies and they'll come up. And in those moments, rather than tensing up, going into fight or flight mode, when I can engage in a more compassionate response of listening to my lust and loving myself in the middle of it, that frees me to just be okay with it. Like, in some ways, your desires are always going to be there. They're never going to be perfectly in line with God's design. And we can choose to love in the middle of that. And when you understand your fantasies, you know, maybe, maybe you will still be very drawn to them. In my experiences, they've become more like preferences. Some of them are just things I'm attracted to, and others of them have completely diffused altogether. You can never really tell what's going to happen. You know, lots of stories of people with same sex attraction have continued to feel the same attractions and others have not. And so I think a lot of it depends on your unique story and whether or not it's rooted in deep trauma.

Yeah, I kind of think of our past or those experiences almost like in our brain, or like this ball of negative energy that if we've not processed it at all, it's just stuck there and it's really, really strong. But every time we go there in a healthy way and with the help of others, we kind of unearth it or we open that door. It's like the energy dissipates and every time a little bit more and a little bit more. And so in a sense, that ball of memory will still be there, but the negative energy and it just dissipates to the point it's like, yeah, I'm aware it's there, and I know I could give into that. I know where it's coming from. But it doesn't have power over me anymore because the energy behind it has been dissipated over the healthy steps I've taken with Community.

That's such a good image of this ball. And it's tight. And over time, it can loosen up. And I love what you said, Trevor, about how in community, when we reveal those parts of our stories to others, that really helps it loosen up. And I can see that, hey, these other people, they didn't condemn me. They didn't react with disgust when I told them this thing that I hate about myself, it really loosens up that ball and you just feel more free, more flexible.

Yeah, yeah.

I think with this too. I think of, I mean, growing up, you know, I grew up in a house with four boys, so it's like we were skinning our knees and, you know, hurting ourselves all the time. Um, but I think that over time, like, wounds, wounds heal, but there still is evidence of them, and there are still gonna be scars. And I think that we need to learn that. We still might see it or might feel it, but that doesn't mean that the wound hasn't healed. Um, I think that the idea of. And this, it's fascinating to me. I'm not gonna go into it because I. I probably don't know enough to even go off on it. But that idea of like even resetting a bone, like, you may walk different, you can walk, but you may walk a little different. There's gonna be evidence of it. But not to carry shame, because there's evidence there. It's just proof that there was brokenness. And then the reason why your body scars is because it's mending itself is what it's doing. And so it's just evidence also of the work that you've done to heal and that the work of the Holy Spirit and the Lord are doing in your life. So for me, it's not all negative. Like, if you can still see it or feel it.

Yeah, well, it's a reminder of God's work in our lives. So, Drew, this has been some awesome stuff. We have unearthed topics that, you know, in 45 minutes here is stirring people up. And really this could be like a week long retreat to process with each other. But as people are starting to think through their fantasies and how to deal with them, what kind of final tips would you want to give to listeners today? Just to start taking steps towards health in this area?

Well, if you are like I was, then you, your sexual fantasies disgust you. They confuse you. You wish they would go away. Maybe you've had a lot of recovery and you've been in groups and you've done counseling and you have lots of great structures in your life, but your fantasies still feel out of control. Rather than trying to control them. Come with curiosity. Come with curiosity about the stories they're telling and come with compassion. Those are my tips, man.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's good. I think this is the interesting thing, and I've talked about this a lot on the podcast, is the idea of other people's stories being an avenue of healing for me. So the idea of being honest and sharing about your fantasies may actually help diminish shame in other people's lives and other people's stories and could invite them into sharing and being honest about theirs. And so I think, and again, this is not, you know, don't go up to the top of your house and shout, these are my fantasies. Like, don't do that. That's probably not the smartest thing to do for you or your family. But I think that it's important to include other people and invite them in because you can start to see a culture and a community of people, address fantasies, see what they really are, and then Heal if you invite other people into that by sharing.

Yeah, I think of people that are listening that maybe are still wondering. I don't really know what my fantasies are. I think we're maybe more aware of our triggers. We're aware when something like we find a person attractive for women that are listening, there's maybe a certain kind of man or a way he behaves, if he's caring towards you, that now you feel triggered to try to connect with him. Guys have maybe a body type we're attracted to. And so when we recognize that, my encouragement would be to say in your fantasy, and obviously you want to be mindful and careful about how far you go with this. But say as you suddenly were triggered by something, where would you go with that? How would it play out? Would it be a long term relationship? Would it be something, you know, a one night stand? Would it be anonymous? That if you kind of think through the pieces of it now you're. What Drew's been saying, now you're seeing your story and it's really your story where it becomes unique. So, you know, for men, women who we find attractive, you know, 80% of guys might find the same exact woman attractive. But I bet every story of what they would do, like what would happen in that relationship is a little bit different. And that's where your story starts to get revealed. So if you're struggling to think you really have this, you know, these fantasies related to your wounds and trauma, kind of think through how does your story play out? Because that was so. What was so revealing for me is I realized no matter what I was triggered by, the way the story would play out in my mind was always the same, same. And that became the revealer of the emotions and the wounds I was trying to fix through that fantasy. And when I saw that, I was like, oh, okay. So I'll probably always be triggered by certain types or images or the way someone is dressed, but to be aware of what my mind would like to do with it, to feel better about myself, that's where I've been able to make huge adjustments. I don't need to go there with it anymore. And then what's triggering can just kind of. I can move on from it rather quickly. And so if that's helpful to someone listening, that'd be great. Get them going down this pathway.

Yeah, totally. And when you have this perspective, you don't just stop the behavior, you outgrow it. Because you found the place where you got stuck in your life and you've been able to go back and come to wherever you were and then take the younger parts of yourself and together with Jesus, grow up and out of the wounding experiences. I mean, you outgrow it. You don't just quit porn, you outgrow it.

That's good. So, man, facing our fantasies and learning from them is a huge piece to creating long term sobriety. But not just sobriety, but health from these compulsive behaviors. And guys like Drew and us here at Pure Desire are all about helping people educate themselves, gain tools, and really create that long term health and their sexuality. To check Drew and his ministry out husband material, you can visit husbandmaterial.com or check him out on social media. Husband Material Men. He also has a podcast under the same name. I personally listen to the podcast. I like it a lot. Drew talks about a lot of really cool stuff and man, I take this for what you will, but the boldness that you have and the lack of shame that you carry when talking about these topics and you're just willing to just go there is refreshing. So I really appreciate it. And we appreciate you and you just hanging out with us today.

Thank you, Trevor. Thank you, Nick. It's a lot of fun.

And if you haven't subscribed to the Pure Desire podcast, do it. It's free forever. We promise. Just subscribe. Just do it. Nike. Hopefully we'll get them as a sponsor someday. It'll be worth it. Write a review if you can help others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.