143 - Getting Healthy Before Marriage w/ Drew Boa

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello, people. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 143 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, sitting right next to me, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Pure Desire, making it great.

Oh, my gosh.

I just.

So you know, we joked on the last episode that references from the 80s and 90s were not your forte, so I had to go back to the 80s and 90s. That is the Pizza Hut jingle from probably late 80s, early 90s. Pizza Hut making a great.

That decade that I was 2 years.

Old, you maybe noticed that I threw in Pure Desire instead of Pizza Hut.

I did notice, and it's making my face embarrassed. I'm gonna tell it to stop.

Okay, so if Ashley were here, she'd tell us how embarrassed she was? Oh, gosh, I'd feel good.

We love you, Ashley Jameson. Okay, a couple quick things before we jump into the description of today's episode. First, subscribe to the podcast. Look, we have podcasts coming out every single week. We're up to now episode 143. Like, this is not something we're going to stop. We're going to keep going. I can't wait till we get to 200 and then 700 and then a million. But subscribe. We're on all the major platforms. Give us a review. It helps people find the podcast and also means a lot to us. Also, you can follow us on social media, keep up with us on Facebook and Twitter, Instagram. We are earedesirepdmi. And if you like to consume video content, you can go to YouTube. We've got episode clips up there. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. I feel like it's just a man. It's just a lot.

That's a lot. Yeah. You're good at it, though.

Thank you. Good feel.

Good feel.

So today it's not a part two episode, but we had Drew Boa on again with us. He was with us last week and we talked about getting healthy before we get married.

Yeah. If the listeners heard last week, they know what a quality guide Drew is. And a lot of good content today. And so obviously, if someone's listening and is, you know, thinking of marriage or about to get married, this is going to be a great episode. Or if you know someone who is, you might recommend, maybe you're listening to it because someone, you know, recommended this episode. But I hope for everyone who's like, oh, I'm not getting, you know, I've been married 20 years. I guess this episode isn't for me. I hope they'll tune in too, because really what this conversation was about is healthy relationships, how a healthy version of me creates a healthier relationship. And we need that whether we're pre engaged, engaged, or married 20, 30, 40 years. So I. I know for everybody married and unmarried, there's a lot of great content here and. And stuff. Frankly, I wish I'd have known at the beginning of my marriage and would have helped me at year 10 of my marriage just get into recovery sooner. So I think it's a lot of quality stuff that Drew brought today, and.

We love spending time with him, so we hope you enjoy the episode. Drew, we got you back two weeks in a row. Thanks for spending some more time with us, man.

Appreciate is my honor and privilege.

Oh, my gosh, you're so weird. Okay, so your ministry, husband material is focused on helping guys quit porn before marriage. First off, huge need. You're doing a great service. And honestly, like, take this for what it's worth, man, but we are proud of the work that you're doing, and we're glad to be associated with you to be working really on the same front lines that you are. So we are really, really proud of the work that you're doing. And because of really where you're operating and what you're doing, we want to talk about this getting healthy before marriage. And so let's just jump in. K, first question, from your experience, what's the downside to not quitting porn before marriage?

The downside is you no longer have just one recovery to go through. You have three recoveries.

Please expand.

Yeah, it gets so much harder because you as an individual have to recover, which, as we all know, is the hardest spirit filled work you will ever do in your life.

Amen and amen.

Then your partner has to recover because they're going through betrayal trauma, and that is incredibly difficult. And then your relationship has to recover. So you have two individuals going through incredibly difficult journeys, and then they need to restore trust in a relationship that gets very painful and very expensive.

Amen to that.

Yes, 100%, I think so. Practically for me, a little bit of my story, if you haven't heard it. I started in a pure desire group when I was engaged. I had a couple months until I got married when I started. And I'm so thankful I started even then. But what I saw is that pornography created unrealistic expectations of what sex would be in marriage to the detriment of my relationship to where I thought we needed to be having it this often, and it needed to look like this and have this sort of intensity, and she needed to love every time, like, all these things. And then you get into marriage and you're like, this is not. This is not. I mean, you talk about this wall drug, right? I've heard you use this example if you think that something's gonna be this thing, and then you get there and like, that's it. And not that sex isn't great and God designed and super awesome. But what I'm saying is I had these to coin or to use a phrase that was coined by Mo Isom sexpectations. I walked into marriage expecting it to be this, and it wasn't. And immediately Drew's laughing right now at this expectations thing. Thanks, Melv. That's. I love that analogy. But I walked in, and immediately what happened was I felt like, either there's something wrong with me, there's something wrong with my wife, or worse, there's something wrong with the marriage.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I think that's one of the greatest unhad conversations in Christianity is young couples getting married that have all these expectations, and when it's not going perfectly, like, there's nowhere to go to have that conversation. And so that's why I glad we do the podcast and are talking about this today. And, you know, my experience going into marriage, I'd heard enough married guys talk that I knew marriage and having, you know, sex with my wife wasn't going to fix me. But I definitely thought that just getting older, like, growing up, I would just outgrow these struggles with pornography and everything. But, you know, you find that reality that you can grow a lot in some areas of your life and stay really, really stuck in other areas, that just because you're growing in your profession, in your spirituality, and even, you know, in relationships, because I'm now married and we're buying a house. And so there were a lot of ways I was growing, but my sexuality stayed stuck because there was no one that was helping me process it. And so that's what I love about what you're doing, Drew, is you're being intentional to say you need a coach, you need a guide as you're getting ready for marriage. You can't just do these things on your own because you got all these blind spots. So let's work on it. Let's deal, let's get healthy. So that's the flip side of what are the pros and the benefits of dealing with your issues, whether it's pornography or other kinds of sexually compulsive behavior. What are the pros of doing that prior to marriage? Yeah.

No more secrets, no more shame. You get to go into this marriage with your wife's complete confidence in you, knowing that she can trust you. She doesn't have to worry about your sexual behavior. She doesn't have to worry that this problem will continue and it will affect your children one day. A lot of guys don't realize what is at stake. And I wish I could find my friends and mentors who are in their 60s, who have lost marriages, who have shattered families and gone through recovery so much later, who could come back and say, hey, guys like you don't realize what's at stake. Your faith, your family, and future are all on the line right now. If you can save your marriage before it starts, that will have amazing ripple effects for you and future generations.

Yeah, I mean, that future generations thing is so key. You know, I've got. At the time of this recording, I have one son and then another baby boy on the way. And, man, I'm telling you right now, I am so thankful I got healthy when I did. I'm so thankful that people were willing to challenge me and to push me into getting into recovery. Because the framework I have for sexuality has completely changed. And the type of father I can be, the lack of shame that I carry and really the ability to be present with my kids and to be present with the brokenness I still carry in my life and know that, hey, there's hope for me to heal, and there's a future that I still have. I mean, I just. I think about, you know, using your example of those guys who are in their 60s. Just think about the ripple effect that you can have on your kids and then your grandkids and your great grandkids. And then think about not just in your family, but then the relationships those like your family will have outside of your immediate family, and the ripple effect that it can cause going on and on. And so for me, I mean, I'm just wearing the dad hat. So for me, this is the biggest thing apart from your own. Your own development and as individual, the type of life you can offer your kids and your family is completely better.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, as I hear you guys talk, it just occurs to me that the challenge we all face when we're, you know, young in life, looking to get married, and it's the same challenge that can exist in any season of life. Is we feel like, yeah, I hear you guys and I hear the horror stories, but that won't happen to me. And so we wait, we push it off. And, you know, we can do that in our 20s and our 30s and our 40s where we're like, well, yeah, I've got some struggles, but we get caught up in this denial and rationalization that I can keep it under control. It won't go too far, I won't cross certain lines. And so I don't need the kind of help they're talking about. And yet in every story I've heard, that's what everybody thought, that everybody thought, it won't go too far. That won't happen to me. No one ever thinks it. Like, I've never, ever met a young person who's like, yeah, I'm probably going to struggle with porn off and on for 10 years and then get divorced because I can't quit it. Like, no one thinks that will happen.

No plans for it.

Right. But that happens all the time. And so I hope in this episode, whether you're a young person looking to get married or you're a middle aged person who is married, who's still dealing with some of your stuff, to just recognize for all of us, there's that part of us that doesn't want to do this because health is hard. Health is challenging. It's revealing. You have to be vulnerable. It's not easy. Like you just said, Drew, it's like the hardest, most rewarding thing you'll ever do. And so if we can just recognize that up front here, like whatever age you're at, there's stuff here you don't want to do. But if you can hear others and hear some stories here and say, you know what, it'd be better to deal with it now than to wait another 10 years, than then there's incredible value in what we're doing today. Yep.

Yeah. And some guys look at some of these programs of getting into a group or especially doing one on one counseling or coaching and think, oh man, that's too expensive. What they don't realize is if you drift down this path, which ultimately leads to potential of divorce, that is going to cost you way more down the line. I had a client who said if he got divorced, it would cost him a million dollars. Oh, my gosh, three kids. He lives the Bay Area, and for him, divorce would cost a million dollars. So a few thousand is nothing compared to that.

Yeah, well. Or the flip side is, what is it keeping me from? Because the truth is if we're wrapped up in our sexual stuff and a binge purge relationship with pornography or other behaviors, like there are opportunities and ways of growth that we'll never get to because we're just going to be kind of stuck in that old stuff. And you can also think the positive side. Like, I mean, I look at you, Drew, and wondering, what kind of, you know, person would you be at 27 now had you not dealt with this as a young man? Like, what choices would you be making? And so not only is it, you know, the costs that it could have if I get divorced, but what are the costs that right now I'm, I'm giving up on just because I'm not healthy enough to pursue the kind of stuff God really made me for?

Yeah, yeah, your career in your calling.

Right.

All of those things are at stake. You know, porn will destroy them if we let it.

And there's an element of this too, that we see statistically in research that the longer you use porn, the worse the actual use gets. It gets more extreme and it gets like, more degrading. And like, it just, it's not like it just stays in one lane the whole time. So it's like you don't. You may not be acting out with someone else right now, but, bro, if you're looking at porn for 15 or 20 years and into your marriage, that doesn't mean that at that point you're not sleeping with other people or you're not like. And you like, here's the thing, no one, and I know this is, I'm being gentle with this, but no one decides. One day I think I'm gonna wake up today and I'm gonna look at like, child pornography or I'm gonna look at, you know, torture porn or something like that. No one wakes up thinking that. But the longer that we do it, the longer we're exposed to this, we get to that point where we're getting so numb to what we've seen before that we need something new and more exciting. And so I think that there has to be like a, A sober mindedness when walking in to this conversation because, bro, it's going to get worse. It's not just going to stay static for the rest of your life and the rest of your struggle. And so we got to plan for it to get worse. And I think that that's got to be something we start with as well.

Yeah, you're talking about escalation. It's very real.

Yep.

It starts out with, with pornography and it can it can very easily turn.

Into an affair down the road, if not abuse. I think a lot of. I've heard many stories of men that it started with porn. Men and women started with porn and then moved to sexual abuse or them being the abuser. So.

Well, there's a lot of sad, sad research coming out that confirms over and over the link between heavy pornography use and those that become sexual abusers. So, yeah, I think you're right. No one wakes up wanting to become that person. But there's evidence all across the board in our society that that is happening. And even if we think, well, never, never me, never me, like, well, we're in danger of becoming part of that stat, because that's what everyone thought.

Yep.

So now that we scared people, now.

That we sucked all the air out of the room.

Right.

Okay, so, Drew, with working with single guys, guys who are single, engaged. I know you work with some guys that are married as well, but what does it look like for these guys going into marriage to get sexually healthy?

Yeah. I'm glad we're beginning to talk about the solution, because there are awesome solutions out there.

That's right.

When you are dating, especially if you're engaged, you need rapid results. And this is a two to five year process we're talking about. So the big question is, how can we accelerate that process? How can we get it closer to two? Or if you've already started, if you've been in it for a year, how. How can we get you porn free, potentially even from day one? And that's what I've seen with many of my clients when they start working with me. There have been episodes of masturbation, but they've never gone back to porn, which is huge because porn creates a higher level of betrayal, trauma. And having a husband who masturbates is not going to create the same kind of destruction. Right. So in any case, the point is, how do you get free from day one? Here's how we do it. Basically, if you can think of the best case scenario of the most recovery you could ever get, it's basically residential treatment. Like, if you could go to a ranch out in Montana or maybe in Oregon, you know, maybe you guys do residential treatment one day. I don't know if that's in the cards, but if you could go to a place where you could have 24, seven healing, that would be awesome. Except for those programs usually cost between 25 and $50,000, and they completely remove you from your life. And then when you go back to your old life, you're in the same environment as you were in before, and you go back to your old lifestyle and your old community. And the transition out of residential treatment is really hard. So what do we do? I like to say we set up residential treatment in your own home. So we get you connected with a coach, with a group. You have daily discipleship technology. You have courses you're going through with the best Christian therapists in the world, like Dr. Ted Roberts, for example. You are having check ins, you are having phone calls. All of this is processed and measured with our digital discipleship. So essentially, if you were entering the husband material coaching program, we would use your devices as part of the solution so that the guys I work with, they're not just meeting with me for an hour every week. I'm seeing seven to 12 hours of recorded recovery time between the readings, the worksheets, our meetings, the groups. And I believe that when you can get that level of momentum, you can see results a lot faster.

Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, what you're speaking to. It's something that I feel like we run up against all the time that people are looking for, the cheaper, easier, faster way to deal with this. So when you start to talk about, you know, daily work, seven to 12 hours, it's like. And I remember when I started recovery, that voice would come up in me. It's like, seriously, like, it's just. And quote unquote, it's just porn. Like, can't you just give me some tips to kick it and why all this work? But I think when you lean into it, you realize this. I have to be all in. Because this isn't just dealing with the outward expression of it. It's recognizing a thought pattern that is with me 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And I can't expect to just once a week pop into a group and check in and be like, I'm good to go. Right? And then the other 23 hours for the next six days, be dealing with this thought pattern and expect I'll be fine. You've got to go all in.

You have to go all in. And the good news is you can. And think about this. Think about it this way. When you guys were in high school, did you take a foreign language like Spanish or something?

Yes.

How much of it do you remember?

Couple.

Un poquito.

Yeah, un poquito. Okay. Just a little bit. How's your English?

It's fantastic.

I think it's pretty solid.

Just crushing it every day.

Awesome. Crushing it with English. So Spanish. Most of us learn something like Spanish or a foreign language using the classroom approach. Right. You show up once a week, maybe you do a little bit of homework for like a year or something and then you're done.

Right?

Well, usually that doesn't really stick. And, you know, I'm sure you learned some valuable concepts, but what difference does it make in your life? Not much. However, if you went to a study abroad program or you lived in a Spanish speaking country for two to three years, I mean, your progress would accelerate and it would last you because you would be immersed, you would be all in.

It becomes very internalized.

Yeah, yeah. So instead of the classroom approach, taking an immersion approach is a great strategy for language learning and for recovery.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's such a great point because most Christians and, you know, like we say all the time on the podcast we love the church, but I think the church is still stuck in a lot of classroom mode of recovery. Like, if we can just train you up with enough of the right information and send you home to do it by yourself, you'll be good to go. And it's like, it's not working. And so we need to have these strategies that are far more about immersion and being all in.

I want to drop this in here too with this question. I think a lot of us are really good at being in, quote, unquote, community, but what that really is, is you're isolating in community. You're not actually being honest. And I think that that is such a huge first step when guys, anybody really, but specifically in the context of our conversation, guys who start to get healthy is really being honest in community. So being surrounded by people, but then being honest about what's actually going on. And I think that once. And again we talked about this in the last episode. Awareness really is the first step, but then being willing to share it is another step. Like, it's one of those things that, hey, look, this is what I'm going, going through. And again, yeah, it's going to open up the conversation for other guys, but then you're really trusting them to help you and to help process. And so I think that that's one of the first things, just practically speaking, if you're in this situation is starting to be honest and not just because here's. I'm going to go off a little bit. I had a friend at the church, I was previously a pastor and I had a friend who was telling me, well, I go to a counselor every week and I tell him about this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, man, but it's one hour a week, and you pay this guy for you to be honest. But are you honest with anybody else? And his answer is no. And I'm like, bro, that's not really being honest. Like, you're basically paying this guy to not tell anybody. Like, you're not actually doing the hard work of being honest about what's going on in your life and including people in the process. And so not that clinical work stuff doesn't work, because it 100% works. As long as it's empowering you to be honest in community and live honestly with people around you.

Yes. Yes. You really need three things for an immersion approach, not just the classroom approach of one hour a week or whatever. You need an environment to heal. You need a lifestyle to support it, and you need the relationships. And when you have all three, that is a recipe for success.

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about that, Drew. And you've already said it that often, someone working with you. And we see this experience in pure desire groups as well, that someone can amend or stop the behavior very quickly. And research even supports that, that most people that are all in on recovery within the first 90 days are finding significant traction in stopping the behavior. And for some people, that's the tempting factor of like, hey, I'm good to go. Like, it's been two months, no porn. Like, I don't need any of this anymore. So paint a picture for our listeners of what does long term health and recovery look like in sexuality?

Yeah, well, for me, I experienced a lot of freedom in my behavior, even up to a year without porn or masturbation. And then while I was leading a big ministry with a bunch of groups writing a book about this, I had my worst season of relapse. And so I was seeing results in my behavior to a point. And then out of nowhere, I was like, God, I thought you healed me. I thought I was over this. I thought porn was in the past. And it came back. The reason why is because I had not yet dealt with what we talked about in the last episode. Sexual fantasies, trauma, family of origin. So if you want to get long term health and freedom, that all in recovery has to engage your sexual fantasies and through that into your early experiences in your family. And the trauma that's really at the core when you can have the two sides of this, which is the, the outside part of recovery, where you're, you're going to groups, you're doing journal entries, you're meeting With a counselor, all that good stuff. And then that's combined with the inside recovery of healing my brain, my heart, man. Then you can experience permanent freedom.

Yeah.

Which gets me fired up.

That's good, man. We like it. This is something that so many people feel like is not possible. And if you're listening to this episode, it is. This is something that thousands and thousands and thousands of people right now are doing the hard work. Millions of people are doing the hard work of getting healthy. And look like what I've learned is recovery is a lifestyle. Like, yes, you're going to see significant growth and healing 100%. But I don't go back into the old environment. You know, for me, part of my journey of getting free from porn and masturbation. I then basically, to use the clinical term, comorbidity, I had another addiction. I went to food and then just got super heavy and overweight. And what I have learned now, you know, I did an eating plan and I'm down back to a reasonable weight, depending on who you ask. But I think that what I have found is that when I go back to sort of eating pizza and sort of going to Taco Bell, it actually changes my perspective on food again. And I go back to old habits. And so it's almost like a relapse where I'm binging back. It's like, well, and I do this great thing where this is not great, I'm kidding. Where I'll eat Taco Bell the night before and then I'll wake up, I'll be like, you know what? I'll go back on plan tomorrow. And then I wake up in the morning, it's like, well, I did have Taco Bell last night. I probably could have, you know, pancakes today. And then when I get to lunch, it's like, well, I already had pancakes today and ruined today. I might as well eat pizza.

And it's like, cheat day becomes a cheat phase, a cheat season.

And I think the same is true in recovery in any arena, specifically sexuality, that we have to make sure that this is something that's a lifestyle we're creating, not just a temporary thing so we can break free and move on. Because as we've talked about already so many times on this podcast, and even in the last couple, these last two episodes were true. It's not just that you're this over sexualized person. There are emotions and wounds and trauma and triggers that are still there. Like, you still have to live in recovery in order to be healthy. And so I think that's just something that's been really important to me.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, for me, even though I'm no longer relapsing into porn or sexually acting out, I have my own coping behaviors and my recovery needs to continue as well, especially with this. My phone. This digital device is something that God is using for good and also something that I choose to mishandle. And I find myself kind of like you, Trevor, going into some of those old mindsets and patterns. It is in a smaller way and we're always continuing to heal. I think the bad news is we always need more healing. The good news is there's always more available.

Yep, that's good.

Yeah. And it's that mindset. I think for a lot of people when they're looking at marriage, like, well, boy, I can see how pornography is a problem. So I need to deal with that issue. But if they don't see what's driving it, that what's driving it is, you know, their woundedness, their need for attention, their need for acceptance, how they react to feeling rejected. Well, if they don't deal with those things, that's going to show up in other places in their relationship. And really in the long term, they're not going to be any better marriage or husband material, to use Drew's ministry name, than just not looking at porn. So if we only switch to other ways of dealing with that, we haven't really become healthier for a marriage or relationship. And so that's what I love about what Drew's doing. And what we're a part of at Pure Desire is not just changing behavior. Ted Roberts said this to me day one. He's like, we're not here to change a behavior. We're here to change the way you do life. Because that's the problem and the behavior is the outcome. The behavior is the symptom of that deeper issue. So let's look at how you're doing life. And I think when you look at having healthy relationships, whether you're about to get married or you've been married for 30 years, that's what we want. We want healthier relationships. And so that's going to mean changing the way I do life. And that means some deep all in work.

Yeah. All right, so for many of you out there listening, you know about the Conquer series, we have a 10 week series that we partnered with Kingdom Works Studios to create for men struggling with sexually compulsive behaviors. And for a really long time, we haven't really had anything to offer for women who struggle because we know that women struggle. This is not just a man's issue, this is a people issue. And so we're really, really excited now to be distributing and be partnering with Mo Isom. And Mo has created this eight part video curriculum that really was created to help start the conversation or really push the conversation forward about sex and Jesus and what it looks like in the church. It's supposed to equip you with practical and applicable truths. It'll answer tons of questions. And really our favorite part is that it really presses into this really taboo topic of a woman struggling with compulsive behavior sexually.

Yeah, I think much like the Conquer series for men, men opens the door to these conversations for any man. It's the same for women. And Mo has become a really great friend of the ministry and we just respect her for her approach and her solid biblical foundation. But she will help women whether they struggle or not, just help them open up these conversations that usually we're not comfortable having. And so helping women understand just some of the basic, very real questions they have about sex and marriage, having a better idea, understanding of singleness and dating and what to. What would help us, a woman, have a better approach in regards to that? And if there, there are issues with pornography or perverse dreams or memories of past relationships like how do you deal with those? And that's, that's the messy stuff we often avoid. But most teaching will guide people really through some solid things and, and maybe another great outcome is how to have these kind of conversations with your kids. I know moms are approaching us all the time at events like what about my kids? What about my kids? Well, Mo's going to be able to give some really practical godly wisdom of what does it look like not only to deal with this in my life, but then to have the right kind of conversations and create the right culture in my home with my children.

Yeah. And Mo is the one who's teaching and the one who's speaking in this and she is a powerful speaker. She really is tons of conviction, tons of experience and wisdom. And we really think that you're going to enjoy this course. So if you are interested, this could be a great on ramp for you getting into an unraveled group. If you are a woman and you are struggling in this area, you can go to PureDesire.org mo, that's PureDesire.org mo and you can get this video course today. Okay, so let's say someone is dating or is engaged to get married. How much? And this is Specific specifically because you work specifically with men. How much of their past or present struggle should they be sharing with a girlfriend or a fiance? And then when is the right time to disclose that information if they do?

Yeah, these are good questions. If you're thinking about dating somebody, if you're single and you're not sure if that's a good idea, if you're struggling with porn, definitely don't tell them about it on the first date. Not a good strategy. And also, if you are dating, do it before engagement. If this person is going to say, yes, I want to marry you, they need to know about this area of life so they can know what they're committing to. As soon as you get engaged, you're planning an event, you're getting ready for a wedding, and that is not the time to bring the skeletons out of the closet. So if you haven't done that, now's a good time to start. But for my story, I opened up to my now wife, Rebecca, about my sexual struggles when we were going through pre engagement counseling. And we're going through pre engagement counseling because we thought, all right, we need to work out our issues before we commit to this thing. And I would recommend that for people. So it was right after our second appointment, and the couple who's counseling us said, you guys, after this, here's your homework. You need to tell each other about all the reasons why the other person should consider the possibility that you might not be a good fit. Bring out all the secrets, all the weaknesses, the insecurities, anything the other person needs to know. So we went back to her apartment. I remember we were both sitting on her couch. And I knew what I had to tell her was about a recent relapse that I'd had after a long period of freedom. I think I mentioned that earlier. And my stomach was tight, my breathing was shallow. I didn't want to look her in the eyes. I was just staring at the carpet. And I knew what I had to do. And I told her, told her about the relapse. And in that moment, she looked at me and she loved me. And more than anything that motivated me to commit right then, that if I'm going to marry this person, I need to be absolutely 100% sure that by the time I get married, porn is over and I am on the road to recovery. I think if you are in a relationship with somebody who's struggling with porn, what you need going into marriage or going into engagement is not so much absolute perfection in their behavior. You don't need Perfection. You need direction. Yeah, that's know that they are in a program like Pure Desire groups like Seven Pillars, like Husband material coaching, where they are getting an all in immersion approach so that they're not just trying to solve the problem, but they're gaining momentum towards the life we were created for, you know, changing the way they do life. I mean, if I had somebody who had freedom from porn for two years and he was plateauing and stagnating in his growth and healing, I would rather take a guy who's pretty new in recovery, but he is very active and he's committed to the process, not just the outcome. I mean, I would take that guy any day, even if he doesn't have the same sobriety.

Right.

I would make sure to mention now because, Drew, I 100% agree with you that it's not about perfection but about direction. That's great. Write that down. That's super good. But I think that that is not a way to justify behavior. So if you are someone who is engaged or dating someone who is struggling with porn or sexually compulsive behavior, we're not justifying the behavior. What we are saying is there's a difference between someone who like, eh, this isn't a big deal, I'm not working on it, versus the person who is like, no, this is an issue and this is something I want to solve in my life and I'm taking active steps to do it. That's the type of person that you want to be with, but that doesn't take away the pain or the difficulty that it may currently become causing.

Yeah. And if we're in a relationship, I think the temptation is to start to think about that other person. And if we haven't had this level of transparency, it's like, well, what don't I know? And then approach them like, okay, I need to know everything and lay it out. That's going to put someone on the defensive. That's going to put someone kind of on their heels and like, oh my gosh, I wasn't ready for this. So if you're in a relationship where that hasn't happened yet, whether you're dating, engaged or married, I think the best place to start is to begin to be very honest about your own story. You know, process it, write it down and be the one who in humility walks up to the other and says, you know, I feel like we need transparency and vulnerability in our relationship and I'd like to know all of your stuff. And I feel like you need to know Mine. And I want to go first, because then you are taking that step to invite vulnerability and transparency rather than expecting it from the other person and believing that, well, they've probably got the skeletons that you need to know about, when the truth is, we've all got stuff, right? We've all got something that have we been transparent and honest? And to have a deep, intimate and intimate, not meaning sex, intimate being, you know, knowing and being known, if that's going to be a foundation of our relationship, these kind of conversations have to happen. And so if. If you realize, as Drew was saying, if it hasn't happened and you're already past the engagement point or even already past the marriage point, like, when's the best time to do it? Well, it would have been back then, but if you didn't, well, it's now. And be the one to take that first courageous step and not expect or, you know, point the finger at the spouse without taking that step for yourself. Yeah.

I think it's important that before, like, if you're engaged, and I think, Drew, you would agree with this, that if before you are engaged or before you're married, if you are engaged, don't wait until after you're married to be honest. Like, that's just my perspective. I think that it's dishonest. It's going to feel like you pulled, you know, you pulled the shade over their eyes, basically, and hiding just so you could get married. And they'll feel there will be a feeling of you're manipulating me to get what you want. And so does that mean. And this is a really, really, really hard situation. Does that mean that you might end the engagement? The answer is yes. That is part of my story. I was engaged twice before I got married to my wife, Amy. And sexual addiction was at the core of each broken engagement. I was not honest, but the Lord was faithful to reveal it. And I can say that now, it didn't feel like he was being faithful. It felt like he was being a jerk and taking away something that I wanted. But what I have seen through now in being in recovery, that was the greatest thing that I could have done because that saved potential heartbreak and divorce and broken family. Like, you have to be what Nick is saying. You have to be honest and don't wait until you're married to be honest.

Yeah. Those stories break my heart, man. And I hear about this where a couple is on the road to marriage, and to everybody else, it looks great, and then they suddenly break up for no reason. Why was it? I mean, it looked like they were about to get engaged. And a lot of times it comes back to this problem of pornography. And so I have scholarships specifically for you guys who are unmarried who want to go into my program, because that's just on my heart. If. If you are in this place of wanting to save your marriage, save your relationship before it starts or before it ends, if you're engaged specifically or dating specifically, I would love to help you, because I feel like you are in a very critical stage of life right now. And I had a client, actually, who came to me after his fiance told him, either you're going to get this sin out of your life, or we're canceling the wedding. Like, or delaying or canceling the wedding. What an assertive, brave woman.

Seriously.

And that's when he came to me. And praise God. They've been married for nine months, and he's been porn free for a year and a half.

It's amazing. Well, quite frankly, some of us need a little kick in the seat of our pants to get going. I mean, I was so lost 10 years into marriage. I knew it was wrong, knew it was hurting us, but just so lost in my minimization rationalization. It's getting better. It's not about you. I'll fix it like that. I needed my wife in love to say, I can't stand this pain, and if you're going to keep hurting me, I'm going to have to leave. Like, okay, I guess we better do something about it. So I would just say there's a lot of people. That's where we start. And thankfully, that's usually not where we end. That as we get into it and get immersed in it, like, we're talking about God, starts to work, and we see how deeply we need it, we see how deeply transformational it is, and then we're engaged for our own reasons. Like, I wish I had done this a long time ago. So, you know, just my encouragement to anyone that still is stuck in that place of, oh, it's just porn. It's not that bad. She's overreacting. He's overreacting. I'll fix it by myself. Well, you can wait for the pain to keep coming, or you can deal with it, because there's such freedom and joy. And so, Drew, you already transitioned to this, but let's kind of look at the flip side. What if we're the one that it's. It's our boyfriend or our girlfriend that comes to us and says, hey, here's the reality of my Struggle. Here's stuff I've done. How do we react? How can we support them? Is there anything you recommend someone not do in those cases?

Yeah, first of all, let's just validate the feelings of difficulty, maybe even betrayal when you hear this stuff.

Yeah, do I even know this person? Yeah, that's normal to feel that way.

Totally. It can be very healing to offer acceptance to your boyfriend or girlfriend in that moment. It was for me and that was hugely motivating for my recovery. Also, it's important to be assertive about your standards, about your boundaries, and to give some kind of measurement of, hey, these are the results that I would want to see before moving forward with engagement or with marriage, and to be very clear about those. And then you can offer direction, you know, point them towards some of the programs that exist, using an all in immersion approach to help them accelerate their results towards freedom.

Yeah, yeah.

Remember, it's not about perfection, it's about direction.

So follow up question. What about the young man or woman that like, they hear their boyfriend, girlfriend confess those things and in their mind they're like, oh, don't worry, when we get married, I'll fix you. I'll be the one to satisfy all your needs. What would you say to that person? That's kind of in the I can make you better mindset.

Oh, man, that's a lot to unpack. I'll tell you a little bit of my story. On my wedding night, I was so excited to sexually engage with my wife. And I had been building up to this thinking when I was growing up, thinking, okay, you're not supposed to have sex unless you're married, so I'm going to hold my breath sexually when I'm getting married, I'm going to let it all out. Well, on my wedding night, that didn't happen. Even though I had experienced significant sobriety sexually, my arousal template was still the same. And I was not able to respond to my wife's body, to her heart, in the way that I wanted to. It was a hard night for me. I wasn't able to connect with her. And I experienced what was ultimately erectile dysfunction that had roots in my use of pornography and masturbation. And so thinking that my wife was magically going to become my sexual outlet was completely unrealistic and objectifying. I mean, essentially I'm replacing porn with her at that point.

Yeah, big danger.

So, yeah, marriage doesn't solve it. And furthermore, when it didn't solve it and I'm not able to get turned on by my New wife. Well, guess what I'm going to think about now. Going to go back to those old sexual fantasies and see if some of them will work. Right. So even with significant sobriety, porn was still creeping into the marriage. And it, you know, thinking that. Thinking that a sexual relationship with your spouse is a replacement for porn or a solution for porn. Yeah, that will. That will cause a lot of heartache.

Yeah, I bring that up because that's some of my story, that my wife, and God bless her, you know, she wanted to help and she believed, like, if we just have a healthy enough sex life, you know, he won't need those things. And I think a lot of, you know, I don't think it's just women, but mainly it is Christian women get that message even from the church. Like, hey, if you just meet all his needs, he won't look elsewhere. And I want to just say to everyone listening, that is so bogus and unhelpful that you cannot be responsive enough to fix your spouse's dysfunction. Because what you're trying to do is believe that your health or being responsive will fix. Will make them better when actually it starts to just play into their needs. Because if my sexual dysfunction is rooted in that, I have to get what I want, when I want. There's immaturity in my thinking. And now you're just responding to it. It's actually only furthering those patterns, not helping. And so I just want to say to any listener, like, you are not your spouse's or boyfriend, girlfriend's solution.

Right.

You can be a. You can be a supporter, you can offer acceptance, you can love, you can talk. There's a lot you can do. But don't ever get into that mindset that says, well, if I'm just responsive enough to their needs, they'll never struggle because you cannot be their solution. So don't get caught into that belief that if you're enough, they won't struggle. It's not about you being enough for them. It never is.

I think there's another side to this question, and I'll just say this before we move on to the next one, but I think that especially in the church we're talking about women, there is this like, well, you need to forgive and you need to be faithful and you need to be gracious and merciful, and all those things are 100% legit. But that you also have the right to be honest and you also have the right to say, this isn't okay with.

To have feelings.

Yeah, like, I'm not okay.

This hurts.

And look, I don't want to be married to you. It is not a sin to make a decision to not get married to somebody who has a significant sin issue. That is not you being a jerk. That's not you being ungracious, judgmental judge. Yeah, you're not being an idiot or a jerk. You are drawing a clean boundary and a line there, and you have liberty to do that. And so I think that if you're listening to this and you're in this situation. And listen, bro, if you're listening right now and it's your girlfriend who's listening to this, it may be the best decision to not get married, to not move forward with the relationship. And we need to be okay with that because, you know, as you guys were talking, basically, am I just going to end up being a masturbation machine for my spouse who's unhealthy, like. And the answer is, I don't want to do that. That's not the role of a spouse. A spouse is supposed to have a shared experience and a shared relationship that's mutually beneficial. And look, if the relationship isn't mutually beneficial, it is okay to call it quits on the relationship, because once you get married, it's not okay to call quits. I mean, that's a whole nother thing. We could open up. I'm talking about in this arena right now.

That episode's coming.

That episode is coming. That. Yeah, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna rewind a little bit. But what I mean is, is that you haven't entered into a covenant relationship. And there is a different level when it comes to the covenant relationship that you don't have when you're dating or when you're engaged. And so it's okay to have feelings, it's okay to have perspectives, and it's okay to draw, like, a clear hard line and say, I'm not okay with this. And if you need to move on from the relationship, that's okay.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just boundaries for yourself. If you're the partner of somebody who's struggling, it's boundaries for your future children. It's boundaries for your own family. This person's coming into your family. So it's not selfish. You're also doing it on behalf of the others who you care about.

Yep.

Yeah. The other thing I would just remind listeners, and we've talked about this on the podcast before, but we do need to guard against offering premature forgiveness, because I think that's the Other thing we're taught in church is like, well, if someone hurts you, you just got to say, I forgive you, and move on. And it's almost like we just. We put a band aid on this big issue and act like we're fine. Forgiveness is a point you need to get to because we're commanded to forgive. But forgiveness really should be offered by someone who's processed the pain, who's processed their feelings, who's processed what's going on. And then out of that awareness makes a choice not to hold on to the anger and to forgive and to let go of their right to punish or to judge. And I just see in a lot of couples that what's actually damaging them is there's been forgiveness, but there's not been any healing. And so they just keep saying, I forgive, I forgive, I forgive. But nothing's really changing because that forgiveness is being offered from just kind of this biblical place of where, well, the church says, I have to forgive. So I forgave you. So I would encourage. If you are the one receiving that news and you're feeling hurt, you don't have to immediately go, okay, I forgive you. You could say, you know, thank you for telling me. I appreciate knowing this. I'm going to need some time to process it. I need to kind of work through it. And. And I, you know, I will. I'll get to a place of forgiveness. But I'm not just going to say, I forgive you, and to try to make it all better. And I know that's what I usually wanted. Like, when I would again confessed to my wife, it's like, well, do you forgive me? Do you forgive me? And I look back and see that was so unfair because I was kind of saying to her, is, is it all okay? We're going to be fine. Like, just say, it's all fine. And that wasn't really fair to her. I needed to let it hurt. I needed to let her process and to choose to forgive when she was ready. So just some thoughts on forgiveness.

And let's be honest, consequences are a great motivator to getting healthy and getting into recovery. Like, and if you're the betrayed, you know, individual fiance, wife, it's not like you're thinking, well, I'm not gonna forgive you, and I'm gonna let you sit in this for your benefit. But if you're the person struggling, there is a lot of motivation and a lot of fruit that can come out from feeling the consequences of our decisions. Because for most people, being single and this is the one thing we see with single guys and gals in group and we see with single men and women out there is that I'm looking at porn, I'm acting out sexually. It's not hurting anyone. So there aren't those, like, very, very visual and tangible consequences from a guy or girl who's struggling in marriage. There are those consequences at play, and so I think the consequences are not all bad on the road to recovery. Okay, next question. You guys ready? Feel like it got a little serious, but we're good.

It's all good stuff.

All right, so, Drew, man, just give us some thoughts. What are some other things that you would share? Encourage single guys and guys engaged when they're going into marriage? What would you say to them?

I would say there's so much at stake right now, you may not realize it. Your faith, your family, your future are on the line. Your sexual recovery is one of the most important things in your life. It's one of the most important investments you'll ever make. And right now, you have an opportunity to save your marriage before it starts. And I would love to be a part of that. If you want to reach out to me, should I give them the information?

Do it, man. Go for it.

Okay. You can do that@drewboa.com Sign up for a Time to talk with me for free. Just like this on video, I guess. This is not a video. Or you can also go to husbandmaterial.com and we have new videos coming out for you twice a week.

And let's just say this publicly. Like, we believe in you, Drew, and what you're doing. And if you're a single guy or an engaged guy, like, we want you to go to Drew. We want you to go and spend time with him, get coached, get into group, get the material, and start your recovery process. Because this is genuinely at the heart. This is not about a. Make sure you come to pure desire and not Drew. This is not a competition. We are after saving people's health and their future marriages and families. So go see Drew.

I think what I would add, and yes, I echo that. Drew's an awesome guy. I'm really appreciating getting to know him and having him on the podcast, but with it for young men and women, for someone engaged, getting engaged, I think to keep in this mindset, like, don't be okay with even a little bit in your own life, because I think that's what I fell into. And just so many people from good Christian homes, like, well, yeah, I've got A little bit of porn and lust issues. I've got a little bit of struggles with old codependent relationships. I've got a little bit of issues with, you know, romance novel. Yeah, I've got a little bit. Because this is an area that. That's what we do. That trips us up. Because I think if we had a similar issue with cocaine, we wouldn't be like, well, it's just a little bit of cocaine. Like, I'm sure it'll be fine, right? We'd all be like, no, like, get 100% out of your life. That's stupid. But when it's pornography and these issues, like, ah, it's just a little bit. So if. If you've been listening to that live, it's a little bit. The little bit. Like we said at the beginning of the podcast, the little bit grows, and you don't want it to. Don't let it. So if you can develop that mindset that says not even a little bit, and that will really help you take the steps you need to. To prepare for a really successful marriage.

What I would tell you, and this is from my personal experience and my story, do not run away from the pain in life. I spent the majority of my life doing that, and little did I know that was actually what was roping me in to the addiction that I had. And I still struggle with that on a daily basis, man. It's just like, oh, this is bad. I want to go, okay, see ya, and I go do something else. That's also being a seven on the Enneagram, but whatever, we'll get into that later. That's right. Yes, true.

Another one.

I love it. Okay, so I think, though, that that's. That is a huge motivation that leads us to the. To this behavior is an avoidance of pain and difficulty in life. And look, the Lord never says that life is going to be easy and void of difficulty, but he does say that if we persevere, that there's always more maturity and more growth and more joy in him if we continue doing it. And so that would be my thing. Just don't run away from the pain. You don't have to dive headfirst into it on day one, but at least start to explore it. Ask questions and invite people who have been there before you are further along in their journey and ask them, Invite them into those questions, those conversations.

So, Drew, it's been so great to have you today. I know we've already talked a little bit about husband material, but tell our listeners about something else. That you're up to, that you're excited about. Why should they go? Check out what you're doing there at husband material.

One thing I'm really excited about is scholarships. So if you wanted to work with me one on one or in a group, you would still have to pay a portion of the monthly fees. But with a scholarship from somebody who's passionate about providing support to young guys to save marriages before they start, you can have most of that covered through donations. So if you want to donate or you want to apply for a scholarship, just email me@drewhusbandmaterial.com and this is such a huge opportunity. The average age of exposure to porn is continuing to get younger. You have guys getting exposed at 7 years old, 8 years old, and the average age of marriage is going up. Marriage is getting delayed. So people are not getting married till they're 28 or 30. So you see there's this 20 year gap for sexual addiction to develop. And most people see that as a huge problem. I do too. I also see this awesome opportunity. Like this is a window where we can come in and provide all in one recovery solutions. Save your faith, your family, your future. I mean, that is what I am so excited about. So I hope more people will take this journey sooner and see results even further.

Yeah. So, okay, based on the conversation today, like, your health, especially in the area of sexuality, can truly be a gift that you give to other people. You talk about the faith, the family and the future. I love that. Just keep that into perspective. And really that's where we're headed toward. We're always headed toward growth. And it's not just a gift you give your spouse. It's also the gift you give your community, the gift you give give your kids, the gift you give your church. Try to say that multiple times fast. I'm losing it a little bit. But as you're jumping into, if you are this guy who is engaged or in a dating relationship, as you create your family, this really starts to set a whole new trajectory. And listen, there is so much good that's going to come from the decision to get healthy in your area of sexuality. And so one of the ways that we would obviously suggest is jumping into a pure desire group, engage with the material. But listen, if you're in this situation, we believe in Drew, we believe in his ministry, husband material. You can just go to husbandmaterial.com you can check him out on social media. Usbandmaterial and usbandmaterial men, actually. That's a little change. And he has a podcast. We like the podcast. Please listen to it. Check him out. Drew, man, thanks for first what you're doing. Thanks for leading the way. Being a young guy who's pushing into this, it's just. It's not common. And thanks for really paying it forward and helping other guys get healthy.

It's so awesome to be on the front lines with you guys. And I can't wait to see what God does next.

All right, if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. It's free. Just subscribe. It'll be worth it. We promise. Write a review as well. Even if you have some beef with our podcast, it's okay. Write a review. We'll get to you.

We'll talk to you.

You. Are you saying we're not perfect? Unbelievable.

So Nick is not.

Not perfection. It's about direction.

That's right. It'll help other people find the podcast. Let's just wrap this up. Lastly, never stop being healthy.