144 - Relationships In Recovery

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello.

Hello.

I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 144 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Oo ee oo ah ah. Ting tang walla walla, bing bang. Are you gonna interrupt or let me keep going?

I mean, I feel like I. I don't know what to do. It's great.

Do you know what that's from?

I sounds familiar.

Yeah, well, it does. And I didn't know it was from either until I had to look up the lyrics online. It is actually an Alvin and the Chipmunk song called Witch Doctor, which I never knew. Maybe not. Now.

We have to put the explicit tag on this episode. Great. Okay, well, good. Okay, well, before we get into today's episode, couple quick things. First off, subscribe to the podcast. If you have not, don't wait anymore. We've got a lot of content out there. You can find us on all the major platforms, and if you can, please give us a review. It helps more people see the podcast means a lot to us. Also, you can follow us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. The handle is earedesirepdmi. And if you'd like to consume video content, we have clips of these episodes as well up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Well, today we sat down with one of our favorite people, Rodney Wright. Rodney is our advancement specialist, one of our speakers, and co author with his wife of our newest parenting resource, how to talk with your kids about sex. We had Rodney on to talk. Really? We're talking about relationships outside of group during recovery.

Yeah. And I think Rodney is such a great voice in this because really, he's been living it for over 20 years, from the time of his initial recovery and just the way he's navigated relationships, I think, and learned and grown and has a lot to offer us because I know most of us are not 23 years in. We're one or two or three. And it's an area that can be challenging, especially when there's something in our life that's really developing, that's new. It's personal. It's hard to know, like, okay, where does that enter into my normal life as I think of it? Like, what do I bring back to friends? What do I share and when? And there's not, like, straightforward, easy answers. But I think today's episode will really help listeners Process based on where they're at, what kind of conversations could they be having and how.

And Rodney is always a lot of fun.

Yeah. Yeah. Great to converse with him.

Enjoy the episode. Rodney, thanks for being here.

Glad to be here with you.

We like having you on. Thanks.

Good to see you in person.

Yes.

It's exciting.

It's always good when I come into town.

You're still okay.

Thank you very much.

Yeah. We like Rodney as Rodney. We also like the rights, but we like Rodney.

Yep. I'm glad to be a part of this team and love the podcast. And whenever I travel, if people know about Pure Desire, they're always loving the podcast. So it's always great to hear that.

You're one of the biggest fans of the podcast. We appreciate that a lot.

Thank you.

So many people may not know this, but you and Tracy live in Coeur d'. Alene. And so the fact that you're here in Oregon with us is that's why we're making a big deal out of it when we get to have you an office. So we're excited. Today we're going to talk through, really, a topic we've been, I think we've had a lot of discussions with multiple people on. Really, when you get into group, really, community changes a little bit. Your perception or perspective of community changes what it looks like to be real and raw with people. And we're going to talk through a little bit about relationships outside of group and how there could be a tension there. There could be a little bit of uncertainty of how to handle it. So we're going to talk about that today.

Excellent.

Let's just start with this, and this is a pretty general question I think a lot of us especially ask at the front end of recovery, if we're in group, should we share that with our friends outside a group? And if so, how do we share that?

I think it's a great question for me. As I was thinking through this topic a little bit today, I think a word that comes to my mind is discernment. Learning to listen to the voice within your own, you know, consciousness, the holy spirit, and maybe asking a couple questions about when to share, who to share with. Is this beneficial for the person? I'm talking to people already. I'm already in group, so I think just that discernment piece is, is this beneficial or helpful to this friend? What's the maturity level of this friend that I have?

That's good.

How would they respond to this? And I think in a general sense, it's okay. To let people know you're seeking to get help in some area. But I just would say use discernment is a general rule because it's not always helpful or not everybody has the right context to understand, but generally a mature person is going to be pretty excited that someone's getting help at some level of their life. So I think just in general, it's okay as long as you feel like the person doesn't have to know everything or, you know, in that regard. But discernment, I think, is an important part of that.

Yeah, absolutely. I think this can be a really challenging area. I know when my wife and I went through our first recovery group, you know, I was the pastor of our church, and there were a lot of reasons why it wasn't appropriate on the front end for everyone to know. And so if everyone couldn't know, then you also knew there were certain people that couldn't know, because then everybody would know. And we're aware of who those people are in our world. And just sometimes they don't even mean to spread that news, but they do. And it was hard for us because we were even needing some days childcare to go and meet with counselors. And we didn't share the specifics, but we would say, you know, we're just getting some help in our marriage, some assistance, and it's really good for us. And we found that most people that was sufficient because they can read into that it's personal. If they want to tell me more, they probably will. So they didn't ask a lot of questions. But I think that is what we want to try to work on, is that we're not going to be deceptive about it and try to hide what we're doing, but that doesn't mean we have to give the exact details. So to say, like you mentioned, Rodney, I'm in a group for support. It's something I'm getting help with that in that season. That may be enough. And then down the road, you'll be able to share more and more. The other thing that comes to mind for me, I think if there are people in your life you have already shared this with, maybe you have a mentor or a friend you've confessed to and asked for help. You've had someone that's prayed with you. I. I think it can actually be really wise and helpful to go to those people and say, hey, remember six months ago, I shared this with you and we prayed together. I appreciate that so much. I want you to know I'm in a group now every week. And I'm working towards. And I'd really appreciate your prayer as I go through it. But that can help. Those people kind of know that, oh, okay, they're taking some steps and then they can really be a part of your support, even if they're not in your group. Whereas other friends, it's not the right timing to go to others. So like you said, discernment is. Is needed.

Yeah, for sure. I think also depending how and when you come to group or a counselor or a setting is important too. If you're kind of self aware and you make a movement about, you know, this is about me wanting to get healthy, not about getting caught or something blowing up, that determines how and when you would speak to people as well.

Right.

So, you know, if you. If your wife has left you for three weeks and people are saying, hey, what's going on? You know, that's maybe a different scenario than just self awareness. And now you're moving toward getting help and you're starting on a journey and.

Taking into consideration too. I mean, not that many people would do this, but sharing it, like on social media or making it public that you're going to. This group affects more than just you. If you've got a spouse that's on the other side, whether you're struggling or betrayed, that kind of drags them through the mud a little bit in the limelight of, you know, what's going on in people's lives. And so I think just consider who it's impacting, because you've got kids too, that maybe don't exactly know what's going on. And you. And you're sharing all this stuff, they may get questions like, what's it like that your mom and dad are working on this? And it's like, what is going on?

So I think just gotta go check Facebook.

Right.

Seriously?

Well, as a couple using discernment together and not just if one wants to and one doesn't, it's not just about an individual, it's about the marriage now. And so I think that's gonna be mutually beneficial to both. And if holding it tight, the information, the one spouse, male or female, who's been betrayed, they want that information held tight. I think then that's a real healthy conversation to have. Then who can I confide in other than my group? And then together making that initial step. So I think that's crucial.

Yeah, I think one of the amazing things that happens in group, if we engage and we're all in and we make that choice to Trust the people we're in group with is that we get to a level of honesty and vulnerability that I think for most of us, and maybe all of us, it's a new level that, like, we're saying, I've never shared this level with other people. And what's interesting is over time, that actually becomes normal, that I come to group and I just. I unload everything, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly. But when it comes to friends in our life and people around us that are not in group, is that the same level of honesty and vulnerability we should try to bring into those friendships as well? Or how do we navigate? Like, what should I incorporate into all my friendships versus what's maybe too much in a friendship outside a group?

Yeah, I think this was an issue that a lot of people struggle with when they initially get freedom and they feel like this story doesn't own me anymore. I'm breaking through my shame. I'm with a confidential counselor or a confidential group, and I'm freedom to share. Then they feel like that that freedom should go everywhere, every time, every place. And I think discernment would say that's not necessarily the best. So I think just recognizing in your confidential group, that's the time to do your work and to share your information, to share your history, to share to what degree your woundedness or your struggle is at your addiction. But I think with other relationships, again, I think it goes back to that discernment piece and recognizing it's not always beneficial to others, nor is it just helpful information. And so just recognizing the more general you stay that, yeah, I seek help, and I'm in a group, and it's really working for me. And then encouraging others along those lines to take steps toward their authenticity. You can be authentic without sharing all the details is what I'm trying to say. And I think many times that's what I really struggle with. I felt like I wasn't being authentic if Nick and Trevor didn't know everything I shared, maybe with the therapist or a counselor. It's not necessarily the case. Not everybody needs to know everything. And I think that's an important takeaway that. Just know that. And it doesn't mean you're not being inauthentic. It just means you're being discerning that it's not helpful information.

Well, I. So perfect example. I've got a large group of friends and community at our church, and they all know where I work. And I know my story really well because I've lived it for 30, 32 years. What I have found is that sharing about emotional awareness, intelligence, that sort of stuff ends up being really beneficial and sharing from my experience. So it's something that like I'm seeing some connections with some wounds that I have. I'm seeing some self awareness in this area and really talking about more how language we use is fruit to root. Like basically what motivations or things in my life are motivating the behaviors that I have. And that seems to be a softer kind of entry for people in that conversation where I'm still sharing what's going on. I just not saying. And in the past that used to cause me to go binge on porn and masturbation and then act out with someone and then I'd have a relapse. Like you have to walk through the whole process, but you can still share what you're learning and experiencing in the self awareness and emotional intelligence area.

Yeah, that's really a great point that those emotional connection pieces are much easier to discuss. Shame core beliefs that I've learned that are lies that I need to change about my identity because everyone can relate to those and it doesn't feel awkward. I think it is the awareness of the things that maybe have become common or comfortable for us. I mean, even using the word masturbation, how many people that that is still, if you use that word in conversation, to them it's just like, whoa, they're looking around for kids. Is this safe? What are we talking about here? And they're defensive or worried just because to them that's not a normal conversation to have.

Correct.

So I think when it comes to our behaviors, it comes to some of those more personal or private things. You just need to consider the context that your small group with mixed crowd of men and women keep it more on maybe the emotional learning or if you're with a family gathering, if you're one on one with a friend of the same gender, then there may be that ability to realize, boy, this is someone I can be that level of vulnerable with. Because on the other side it may open them up to that same thing going, oh, wow, you're getting help for those issues. I didn't even know that was possible. And me too. And what could I do? And so consider the context. And I think you see a lot of fruit come from those times.

I've got a funny story. We were this last Christmas we were having our growth group, our community group got together and had a Christmas party and one of our friends, and she's one of the funniest people I know. She said, in a sentence, she was talking about something and then said the P word. And I'm like, really? We're adults. Like, you have kids, you. You can't say the word penis. And she, like, snap in the moment, said, not everyone is paid to say the word penis, Trevor. And I'm like, oh, okay. So, like, people know that it's my job to talk about sex and sexuality and brokenness, but it's still not normal for other people. And so there's also that sensitivity. Like, don't you want to, like, hit people over the head with these topics that are really not natural and normal? Which is not what we would like. We would like this to be a normal part of conversation, but it's not. And so being aware of even that is probably helpful, but just a funny story to maybe illustrate it.

Right. It goes back to that discernment piece.

Totally.

You know, and about just the awareness.

You're camping out there. That's what we're gonna keep coming back to.

Exactly. But I do think there is something really beneficial in letting people know that you're seeking help. You know, that that's a piece of vulnerability that I think they don't always need to know the details or what necessarily areas, but it's a phrase that I really believe in. Healthy people seek help, and seeking help is not a sign of our weakness, but wisdom. So that's always appropriate vulnerability in the sense of you don't have to tell them in what area or what way. And again, depending on just kind of the parameter of who knows what and how it all came about. Letting people know, yeah, we're seeking some outside help or I'm in a group seeking help. What kind of group? It's a support group. It's a program group. It's a recovery group. Again, just depending on discernment of what information is helpful or how much do you trust that person in that regard?

And we can let the other person help dictate that by what kind of questions they ask. Because if we share, we're in a support group. And then they start talking about the Dallas Cowboys. Okay. We know probably not going to keep going down that route. If they're showing interest, then I think it gives us permission. But as you were telling that story, Trevor, it made me think about. There are a lot of topics in this area that are taboo.

Yeah.

And when something is taboo, it means we don't really talk about it. And it's not just that the word itself is taboo. It's that there is shame or feelings associated with those words. So I think that's in a context with other people we need to be aware of. There are certain words or language that it might trigger something in them, emotional of shame or fear or that's wrong. And so we just want to introduce some of those things very gently and in the right context. Because if what we say just triggers in them this reaction of shame or anger or fear, it's going to shut down conversation anyway. So I think we have to be careful. We don't say things for shock effect or in some people's personality. They want to be kind of edgy and so they talk about words that others aren't using, but it kind of makes everybody else lean out and just go, man, I do not want to hear more about that because it's kind of weird and scary.

Well, I think that's for me, part of that discernment piece of just how to use language and how to do it. I know even just when we communicate publicly it in a setting on a Sunday morning with a congregation or in a parent training, some of this language may be triggering for some of you here. So I just want to be aware.

Of that and to acknowledge it.

I just want to be aware of that. And if it does trigger you, make sure you seek some help. Or we're not trying to be offensive or triggering. We're just trying to have healthy conversations about that which really what you're doing.

Is you're being considerate of other people at that point, which is a good value.

Yeah. Discerning that this may not be easy for other people to hear, especially if you're dealing with something that they haven't dealt with in their life. Maybe it's a, a wound or an addiction or negative history that they've just tried to avoid and now it's kind of coming back up again. It kind of catches them off guard.

And just remember though that we were all there at one point. Like we were all like when we heard that word, like, ah, this kind of feels weird. So just try to tap into that.

Yeah, for sure. I know just in my story, when I disclosed to my wife Tracy, it was a very traumatic experience for her. And there was a couple days there where we were separated. I picked up the phone and called all my siblings and my parents and my in laws. So I knew to what parameter my choices had brought pain. And those were the people that I trusted and they were my family. And those are the ones that I wanted to have those honest conversations with. To what degree? And in the sense of. For some it was more detailed oriented, and for some it was more specific. Again, just using discernment. But just say, hey, this is where we're at as a family. For me, I felt safe with family and knew that I wanted to bring them on the loop. But again, not all the families are the same. So that's where you want to use discernment in that regard.

Some of the families are the last people that.

Exactly.

Or not at all.

Exactly. So, again, discernment, I think, is a big, big part of that. If you had a best friend that has walked with you through everything and you have high trust, I mean, man, those are the right people to get in your group. But husband and wife, I would definitely say, be on the same page about who you let into that circle and who you share what with, to what degree.

Yeah. So our groups are extremely confidential, and not because we're trying to keep secrets or bring about deception or anything like that, but mostly for safety. And so with that in mind, what does that balance look like between being honest with somebody and then also maintaining that safe culture and that confidentiality?

Well, as far as group goes, I think it's important not to share stories or not to disclose anything just about what's ever happening or being said in the group. We're a group of individuals that are working through our brokenness, and it's a safe place to do that. And so I think really just having a high standard of that. If you're going to share anything, to me, it's just sharing your own story, never somebody else's story. And again, discernment is what leads you to share how much or how little of that. But I think that's really the criteria, you know, in that regard.

Yeah.

I think there are times when we may realize that someone else's story could be helpful, like to maybe share with our spouse or to share with another group that we're a part of. And in those cases, you really want to ask that person's permission to just say, you know, what you shared about how you and your wife overcame this obstacle. My wife and I are facing something similar. Would you be okay if I shared your story with my wife? And in that case, particularly if it's something more positive that they faced a challenge and overcame it, the group member, by and large, gonna go, yeah, I'd love to help you guys. And in fact, if your wife wants to call my wife, I know she'd be. So that can happen. But it's just to Be respectful of. I don't ever have permission to tell your story from group unless you've given it. So that's just the operating. That's just how we operate is I can share what I've shared, but never what someone else has.

Well, there's. And I would totally agree. I think there's something that if you're sharing your experience, you can still share your experience. Like an example, for me, part of group that was really helpful was other people's answers, really brought light to what was going on that I hadn't seen yet. And so in conversations with my wife, I can say one of my group members mentioned something about this, and then it connected for me and then here. So it's almost like an on ramp into my experience where I'm not saying, so this person that's in this group with me did this. But it's more of like a general. This was talked about in group. And it helped me connect stuff in my head, in my heart to understand it. So I feel like there's a balance there.

Yeah. And I agree with what you're saying that I think some people do give themselves permission. Well, if I didn't share their name, it's okay. And even that really could be breaking confidentiality because over time, it's almost unavoidable. Like, if you go to the same church with people in your group, over time you're gonna start to kind of piece together, okay, they're in group and they're in group, but that doesn't mean you know their stories. And so if you start going to your spouse or friends, like, well, one of the guys in my group talked about this. The tall one.

Yeah, yeah.

And we think we've protected their confidentiality, but really we've given enough pieces that it's not gonna be hard for others to put it together. So we need to avoid that. But yeah. What you're sharing, if you say, boy, someone else pointed out how this, you know, this scripture really applies to our journey. And that meant so much to me. Well, now you're not sharing anything personal, so.

Right. Talking about a principle rather than a piece of someone's story. Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.

Yeah. Because I think that that just in general, that that's what we always encourage people is just share your experience.

Yeah.

And two, I would. I would just say in. In that. That you're really sharing what you're learning. I feel like an emphasis on what you're learning is really helpful. And even because it can be harmful to people if you're sharing all of your trauma with someone, even your spouse, your spouse may not be ready for that or want to know all that stuff. And so sharing more what you're learning and where you see the Lord moving you and the growth that you're seeing is possible or that you're experiencing. And so not that we want to avoid the harmful stuff or the negative stuff, but really leaning into the what we're learning.

But you're right. I think that's when we're tempted to break confidentiality. Is like if, if our spouse is struggling somewhere and we've just heard someone else and we think, oh, that would be so helpful, our motives are right. But if we're breaking confidentiality, that doesn't make it okay. So again, I go back to get that person's permission and then, yeah, bring up a story that you feel could encourage a spouse or friend in that situation.

And sometimes just learning how to ask good questions to help your partner, your spouse, rather than making statements of what you heard, but how to help them. Self discovery in that regard. I think one rule for me too, not just discernment, but when you let other people know that you're seeking help, it really hits the shame piece. Because the shame says, I want everybody in this table or in my world to think I got it all together in every area. In my money, in my marriage, in my finances, in my sexuality, in every area. But if I say to you my wife and I are taking a Dave Ramsey course, or if I say I'm seeking help on raising my kids, or I'm getting some help in this area of my life, I think there's something that speaks that people will think less of us if they know we're seeking help. And I think the opposite of that is true. At least that's been my experience. When I've just been honest enough to say I've needed help in whatever area and just let people know I'm seeking some help in how to process a loss I'm navigating, that's causing a lot of grief. Or I'm getting help in this area, X, Y or Z. I think people stand back and say, wow, that's pretty neat that Rodney would care enough about himself to go get some help or so. And I think that just models something so healthy that you're saying in our faith communities, in our world in which we live, in our family systems, that when dad needs help, he goes and gets it. When mom and dad need help, we seek it.

Right?

And what we model is more important than what we say. So I think that's a really great piece of what you can do in modeling.

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Okay, guys, so we've been hitting on this topic a little bit about spouses and the interaction there. But for many listeners, their spouse isn't in group or in group yet. Whether the spouse is the one struggling or you're the one struggling and they're the spouse that's dealing with betrayal. They're just, for maybe a lot of reasons, not in their own group as of yet. So what does it look like to talk about recovery with our spouse in that situation, does it need to be avoided or can we still bring some health into the marriage when they're not in group?

Here's what not to do. Okay, so you walk in to your house after group and be like, okay, so I learned how you to forgive me better. Like, I learned stuff about how you need to understand my brain to like, don't do that.

Don't try to fix your spouse.

No, right. Group is not about your spouse, it's about you.

Right, right, right. Well, you know, this is one for. I think what's really important that we need to let our spouses know is our long term commitment to our health and wholeness. So many times I think in the addictive cycle, we just want to be fixed right away. I know for me, I just wanted to be fixed and delivered and have that all gone. And what really helped Traci to have credibility was my long term commitment to my health, healing and wholeness. So this wasn't just about, I found a great answer in group or I no longer have a problem. It was about saying, I'm committed to going to this therapist in my case, or I'm committed to my group through the end of the year and doing my group work and then knowing what part needs to be shared with spouse. Obviously there's disclosure in the group work that we do, but also the relapse prevention plan or some of those details. That's why you want to get some help. If your spouse isn't in a group, for instance, a betrayal beyond group, or you're not doing groups simultaneously, you might want to get some help to know how and when, what to share the discernment piece, what's beneficial to my wife, where there's transparency, but what's not helpful for her at this part of my journey where I'm at.

Yeah, this is a challenging question that we get a lot because I think for people that are in a marriage where the other spouse maybe doesn't know the extent of what they're struggling with, so particularly if it's the one struggling husband or wife, if they're the one that's acting out and they go, and initially you could say, oh, there's just a men's meeting at church or there's a women's meeting at church, but if you keep going, sooner or later the spouse is going to say, well, what is this group that you're attending? What's going on? And we don't want to in our journey towards health now become deceitful. Like, oh, it's just a Study about the book of James or, you know, if that's not true. I think if that question comes and we need to face it, we need to say, you know, this is a group about sexual integrity. And I'm just realizing I have a lot to learn and I want to really be a man of integrity in this area. And so I'm really engaging. And I think we fear doing that because then the next logical question is, oh, do you struggle in that way? And that's where you get the deer in the headlights. Like, okay, is this the moment? Do I need to unload all of it? And here we go. And I think we've tried to coach men and women through that to say, you need to be honest to a point, but try to invite some patience to say, you know, I haven't been perfect. It is an area I'm struggling or have struggled. And I want you to know that I am committed to 100% honesty moving forward, that if there's things I do, I'm going to be really forthright with you and there's going to come a point that I'm going to unpack my history. But right now I'm fearful that it would just be emotional or I would just be. I wouldn't remember it. You know, that's. And you could even say part of what I'm going to learn is how to be honest about my past. And, and that can invite some conversation where if the spouse is like, well, I need to know more right now. It's like, well, could we talk to maybe my group leader about what's the right way to do that? Or could we look at some disclosure? Because there are instances where case by case, a spouse just is not content to wait. It's like, I've got to know. So even then we try to coach someone up to say, well, don't, if at all possible, say, could you give me a couple of days just to write some things down to make sure it's thorough and not emotional and I'm not. Because the hardest thing, and you could say this to your spouse, maybe the worst thing would be for me to share a bunch now and then remember some more tomorrow and then remember some more and say, honestly, I don't want to do that. I want to be honest and accurate. Because that's the other side of why you're going to group is your goal is to get to that point. And that's something I'd encourage listeners to think about, is that my long term goal is my long term goal to Be in a marriage where I'm 100% truthful and real with my spouse. And I think the vast majority of us would say, well, yes, so that's the long term goal. But now it's just kind of being maybe forced sooner than we expected. I think we can accept it because say, well, this is what I was hoping for anyway. It's just coming sooner than I thought. And you can still walk through that in a way that could have better outcomes than if you just, in that moment, kind of emotionally spew whatever comes to mind.

That's good stuff, Nick. And this question kind of has a big range to it. The sense of you're going to be open with your spouse about recovery. It depends on what they know already. What have you disclosed? Do they not know you're going to the group? Did they catch you in something and now you're going to the group? Did you proactively let them know you're going to a group? I mean, there's so many scenarios. Are you currently involved with another person? Is it just a fantasy or a visual kind of thing? I mean, there's so many scenarios that it's not just one simple answer. But I do think getting some help about when and how to disclose and when and how to bring your partner in is really important.

Sounds like a whole podcast.

Yeah, that's just so, it's so, so vital.

Podcast.

Yeah. That's why I think, you know, if men and women both get in groups simultaneously, the material is so good that'll help walk you down that road about how and when to start building those authentic relationships where you can be real to where when disclosure happens, when this painful stuff is shared, that the other partner has some framework to help them navigate through it so it's not just a dump on them and say, hey, good luck with that and I'm gonna move on to my own recovery or my journey of healing. So to me, again, I go back to that discernment word. And if you're stuck, ask a third party, ask a trusted group leader, ask your counselor, ask somebody you trust. How should I navigate through this? Because a lot of us have navigated through scenarios where there's some good practices that are out there that can be real beneficial. And if you're in a group right now, your group leader, if your group leader doesn't know, he'll continue to ask and get some help and try to give you some good advice on that.

As you guys are talking, I'm just thinking of potentially a listener that is the betrayed spouse that is in that season right now that I want to know. It feels like it's killing you that you don't know. And we've talked about this before, and I think through. We've been doing this for a long time now, but we've talked about it. And I think it's the. The understanding that you. In order to understand a story or a narrative, you need the whole picture. And, you know, if we're thinking about someone who's in group, like, they're. They're going for a different outcome. They're in the, like, trial and tribulation, if you will, of the hard work of group in order to get to the healthy season, a new season of life. And so just to get a little snapshot and like, the first 2/3 of a story isn't really going to craft a narrative or really give you a lot of information. And so it's like, if I only knew, you know, two chapters in a book that had 58 chapters. That's not going to do anything for me. And so the reason why we have a time and a period of waiting is, as Nick, you were saying, we're connecting those dots and really crafting our own stories in a way that we can tell a holistic narrative that we can make sense of. This is where I started. This is the culture I grew up in. This is where brokenness entered in. This is how it manifested over a number of years. And then these are the things that are motivating due to all that history. I see now the things that are motivating my negative behavior. And the reason why we do that is so that it facilitates a better conversation and creates a good foundation with that couple so that we know where we're going and where we've been.

Yeah, there's always a backstory. And if you just give them one snippet of information, they're not going to get the full context. Backstory is just. It doesn't excuse the behavior, as Heather would say. Of course not.

Right.

But it just informs us to why that behavior is. Why do we do what we do? That's a great question. What motivates us to do that? And I think the backstory is so good. That's, again, that's why we love our seven pillar groups or unravel groups, because they're going to get to the backstory. What makes you do what you do? And those are the real problems. And these other things are the symptoms. So it just says to your partner, I'm about transforming. I'm not just about behavior modification. I really want to be an authentic, real person. I want to share my life with you and have authentic relationships and learn how to be intimate with people. But I got hurt somewhere or stuck somewhere or broken somewhere, and I need some healing. And so, again, just context makes a big difference in that regard.

Well, and I think sometimes when a person is saying the betrayed spouse, saying, I need to know everything right now, what really they are feeling is, I need to know how deep I goes. So I do think it's appropriate in some of those initial conversations to try to create some of the guardrails. The question of, does this involve other people outside of our marriage? Because if that's the case, there are steps that may need to be taken to cut off relationship, to move into a safe place. Even if there's been physical relationships, the betrayed spouse, they have the right to know what's happening to their body because they've been engaged with your body. And so there may be doctor's appointments.

Like their safety, their protection.

Those are things that can't wait.

Yes.

And if that's the scenario that you're in, if you're a listener, the truth is, your greatest hope of saving your marriage is to face that as soon as possible and as honestly as possible. And that's going to be a hard thing to admit to your spouse. But let me tell you, it'll be a whole lot harder if you try to ignore it for nine more months and then circle back and say, well, actually there were these affairs. You need to deal with it. And so that is a case where, if they're asking, you need to get honest soon. For a lot of our listeners, though, they could create that guardrail to say, there is no physical activity with anyone outside of our marriage. It's confined to thought stuff, online stuff. And I want to be totally honest, I want to do it well. And for a lot of spouses, then that can kind of take their mind from, oh, my gosh, my world just exploded. To kind of pull in the pulling the boundaries back in and going, oh, I kind of know where the highway is, and I maybe don't know all of the steps down the road, but if I know where the guardrails are, then I can be patient. So that may be a conversation to try to have and create those healthy guardrails.

So what other pitfalls or mistakes have you guys seen, maybe even yourself have made these mistakes or seen people close to you make these mistakes? When navigating this idea of relationships outside of group during recovery.

One that I think I've made personally and seen people make is the need to overshare. So just that need to feel like Rodney's not being authentic unless he just lets it all out. Right. And you know, then nobody will ask.

You, how are you doing? Because they're like, I don't want the whole, oh, shoot, there's Rodney.

Turn away. Yeah, exactly.

Don't make eye contact.

Or sometimes just in my desire to want to be vulnerable, I've led with some things where it just kind of blows them out of the water. And in my immaturity, if I can be that candid, I've realized that's not helpful. Nor does that always create. It maybe creates vulnerability, but it doesn't show maturity. It kind of speaks of, huh, wonder why he would lead with that. That's interesting, you know what I'm saying? So I think it just. Again, this is a maturity piece. I go back to a discernment piece. Not everybody needs to know everything. You can be vulnerable without being over descriptive or just kind of feel like you got to let it all out in order to reach that vulnerability piece. So, you know, that's one thing I would say oversharing the other time is just listening to the spirit. When you're prompted to say something in a deep, mature relationship that might be pretty vulnerable because you're making a connection with somebody else that's in a dire place who doesn't think that there's any hope for them. So I think both and. Or both of those scenarios for me or what are some pitfalls or some things that. Mistakes that are common.

A couple things that come to mind for me. I think we have to consider our motive in sharing and kind of touching on something. You said that we may, if we're in a process, whether it's because of our own behavior or something our spouse has done, maybe we're looking for someone to console us or to help us, which can lead to inappropriate sharing that I'm going to a friend like, well, you'll never believe what she did and all these ways she's hurting me. And we want someone to make us feel better, but now we're really sharing things that weren't appropriate and we're going way too far or, you know, vice versa. I want to feel validated, so I'm just unloading on a friend, but it's information they didn't need or want or we're sharing something about our spouse that we shouldn't have been. So I think just being aware of your motive and sharing. Because if you need that kind of help of being consoled, you need to go back to your group or you need to find a counselor in an appropriate place to unload those things. And then the other thing that comes to mind is for many of our listeners, they're going to get the opportunity sooner or later to share in a. In a semi public or public way, whether it's with their small group at a men's gathering or even weekend services where someone says, man, it's so evident God's at work in your life. Would you share your story?

Right.

I think in those moments, just make sure that the right people that need to hear have already heard.

Yes.

Because I find that close friends or family members, they don't want to hear on a podcast or a weekend service something deeply personal about your life. It can be like, what the heck? Why didn't you. Like, I really wanted to hear that. You know, as a pastor, I had a rule that in my mind, I didn't want to share anything personal unless my wife and my elders knew it was coming.

Right.

Because if they already knew and there was a level of vulnerability there they were comfortable with, we were all good. And that can be kind of a check for us. If you're getting the chance to share, praise God, because I really think that's how we defeat the enemy and how this message moves forward. But if you're getting that opportunity, just pause and say, who needs to know before I share this, if this is going to be on my church's podcast or their weekend service thing, is it time for a phone call to mom and dad? Just to process my childhood? Because you don't want them to hear it through some Facebook posting. So if you get that opportunity, dive in. But think first. Who needs to hear before I go there?

And I think in the healthy family systems, I know Traci and I, we sat down with our kids and shared our story at the appropriate time when we felt like they were all three ready to hear it. And then followed up with that with future conversations about ask me any questions you want to know. And there were some deeper questions and some deeper stories, but I feel like they all three know my story. So there's nothing about my story or our story that kind of takes them by surprise. Kind of going back to your point is that you know, the people that know you the closest and that are in your trusted circle, they feel like they know you. And for Traci and I, when we go out and share, if I'm just with A men's group or a group of individuals. There are times I'll be more vulnerable with Traci on the front row simply because I want to model for them, that you can really be intimate and not live in that shame of that piece. But there's something I would never say on a Sunday morning because people wouldn't have that same context for it. So I think again, that discernment piece is a big part, but inviting other people in to say, hey, did anything I share seem inappropriate today? Or did my motives seem like I'm trying too hard? And Trevor, Nick can say, hey, yeah, Rod, I mean, where did that come from? But I think that's that, that's that invitation where you invite people to look at your motives and what were you.

Made up that you were meeting with the Pope and confess like that that was too far, right?

Yeah.

Way too much.

Yeah, right, right, right.

So for me, this, I'll, you know, be honest here, talking about vulnerable authenticity, like, for me, we talked about motivations, like, what's the motivation of sharing? And there are times when I share with the motivation of really pressuring this person because I know group is good for them or that they need it. And so I even this morning had a conversation with a mentor of mine, and I'm realizing I can basically craft the way I want a conversation to go, usually to get the outcome that I'd like or think that we should have. And so if I'm basically trying to manipulate someone into seeing the right parts of group or the right parts of my story to convince them, that's a no. No, I would say don't do that. And then also an extension of that, I'm learning how judgmental I actually am at my core, theological arguments aside, but I judge people who don't get into group where it's like, you obviously need to get in, like you literally have told me, and you know where I work, right? Like, you know what I do for a living, this stuff could be beneficial for you and would change your life. And when they don't, then judging them and then peppering in these recovery type answers or thoughts or like, well, if you got in a pure desire. So for me, that is one way, a huge mistake and pitfall that I think is motivated by the right desire. Because if I have experienced healing and I know how amazing it is, I want other people to have it. But if the motivation then kind of shifts in my own brokenness to be like, well, you need this, and if you don't get it, then you know, you're on the JV squad or so I verbal vomit a little bit.

But letting go of agendas and just try to show up authentically and be seen and be real without kind of an agenda to manipulate an outcome or, you know, just try to be appropriately vulnerable and let go of the agenda totally and let it be what it's going to be.

So you're saying, Trevor, you become like the sharks on Finding Nemo, like denial.

Yes, that's right.

There is a tension there because when we walk through recovery, I think we do through self awareness that we're gaining, we kind of get a different lens that we see the world and we start to recognize easier. When people are posturing, they're acting like they're something they're not. And something in us can be judgment, like, dude, just get over your garbage already and be honest.

We see our own brokenness in them because we've seen it in the mirror.

So I think we do have a choice there though that I can come across of judgmental or write them off or look for those opportunities and praying through the Spirit to just say, lord, would you give me an opportunity to speak with them and in an appropriate way coming alongside of brothers and sisters in Christ to say, you know, and I would always lead with your story. God is. I remember a time I was just really lost in arrogance and felt like I didn't need anybody's help. But God has done such a work in my life and you know, just sharing a brief part of our story and then to say, I, I care about you a lot. And I felt today, you know, I heard you at this gathering and it didn't feel authentic. I felt like you were like, you've had to perform or. And I want you to know I don't need that from you. And I think God could do, you know, so now we're inviting and asking it and then leaving it in their court, but in an appropriate way. That's not guilt, you know, driven or shaming them into something, but out of love, hopefully trying to say to others, I want you to find some of the joy and freedom that God has brought my way.

I think another pitfall is just to think that assume everybody's safe, not everybody's safe. So that's a real pitfall, I think, is just to assume everybody's safe and everybody has your best interest. It's just not the world in which we live. So I think again, that discernment piece is really important about just who you share outside of your group. With. And sometimes some people that aren't safe are the very religious people that seem pretty religious on the outside, but, you know, to be safe would be someone has your best interests, they really care about you. And so I think that's an important thing that I continue to remember. Not everybody's safe.

Yeah. This is such a good conversation, you guys. I think, so valuable, I think, for a lot of listeners, probably something maybe they're very aware that it's happening in their life, but haven't had a chance to sit and think about it. And so I think it's going to be helpful for a lot of people. As we look to wrap up today, any final thoughts for those that are in recovery, how they handle and navigate those relationships outside of group?

I would say final thought would be, keep doing your work in group. Show up in group and let your voice be heard and lean into it and do the work. The program works if you work it. So keep working your program. Keep on your. Keep showing up, keep doing your faster scale, your commitment to change. Keep doing the homework, keep showing up and doing the group. And then just allow time. Time is such a great thing when we do the work that we do. Plus, time is really beneficial. So don't feel like you have to necessarily disclose. There may be a. You know, I'm 22 years, 23 years into my recovery journey, and it's just been a season of coming to new places just because it's okay to have time and healing under your belt. And so just continue on that journey and keep investing in yourself.

Yeah. I would just say just use your story as a weapon for good. Share your experience, share your story, share the healing that you've experienced, what you're learning. And whether you're like me in the fifth year of recovery or in your 24th year of recovery, you're always gonna be learning something. And so that ongoing vulnerability of just sharing what's going on, what are the added layers of you and your soul that you're learning about and experiencing the Lord in. And so just use it as a weapon.

Yeah, Yeah. I remember at the beginning of our journey, meeting with Ted Roberts, and him saying, you know, Nick, this is gonna become a major part of your ministry. And I was in my head screaming, no way. Because I was like, exactly. I was up this mindset, like, this is a terrible thing. I need to fix it and get better and move on and, like, never talk about it. And he had to keep working to convince me. And now, as I look back, it's just so Clear to me that the way I felt wasn't about discernment or caution, that what I felt was really wrapped up in my story, in my shame, in my sense of worthlessness, and in the performance mindset that I needed to be good for people to like me.

Yeah.

And so I would just encourage people as they're listening, if there's a part of you that's like, you know, these four and no more, like the four in my group are the only people I'm ever going to talk to that may be rooted in some of your shame and fear. And the sooner I think that we can embrace that. What God wants to do in me, God always wants to do through me. And even if we're in our first month, that doesn't mean this month.

Right.

But if we have that vision of God's going to use this way beyond just my story, it starts to set us up for those conversations. It makes us aware of just what you said. Lord, how can you use me? How can you use my story? I'm just a broken person finding hope and healing, but how can you use me? And maybe that doesn't come for six more months as you get healthier and more traction. But the sooner you develop that mindset, I think you'll find that's actually a part of breaking out of shame and isolation and the secretiveness. So just trying to hold on to that thought, and if you're not there, I'm with you. I wasn't there either. But if you could believe that vision, I think God can really do some amazing things beyond what you expect.

And, Nick, I would just echo that quickly. I would say that for the religious leader, too. The pastor, the priest, the associate pastor, whatever it is, when you model appropriate vulnerability, it's a good thing of just saying we're seeking some outside help because we realize we need it. That vulnerability and that sometimes we just hide behind that religious mask that doesn't allow us to be real humans on this earth getting help and seeking out. So just be aware of that. If you're a religious leader holding all those cards so tight, just. Again, we're seeking help because we need it. And I think that can be a great way of just learning how to be free and living as an authentic person.

Well, we know that recovery is an interesting season of life that has a lot of power to it. And as you go through the process of becoming healthy, it is going to bleed out. It is going to move into other areas of your life. But as Rodney said, only a couple of times, discernment is super important. So being aware.

Buzzword discernment.

That's right. It'll be in the hashtags later. But being aware really of the best ways to be real in relationships is important. And just because one relationship, you're not able to be super real and upfront with everything now, doesn't mean that later you won't have that opportunity. So we hope our conversation helped bring some value to that today. And Rod, thanks for being here, man.

Glad to be here. And they got these cool mugs and I recommend everybody call and make a hundred dollar donations and we will send you one. It's the Pure Desire podcast mug with Nick and Trevor. So give us a call. $100. We're going to send you one of these mugs.

That is the first guest and just.

Say Rodney said so. Just ask for the Rodney special. 100 bucks and we'll get you 100 bucks and help a great cause move forward. So how's that for a transition?

So good.

So good. So wherever you're at on your journey, if you've gotten the podcast mug or not, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to our website, PureDesire.org and start your healing journey. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. It's free. It does not cost a hundred dollars. Just share with your friends and family.

Right? Mugs do cost.

That's right. That's right. And lastly, never stop being healthy.