145 - Stories of Healing: Dan & Jenn Howie

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hello.

Hello.

I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 145 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

We're going on a trip on our favorite rocket ship going through the skies.

Nope.

No, you're not going there.

I honestly don't know the words to that song. I know that it's. Is it not Magic School Bus?

No, that's it. It warms my heart to think that there may be thousands of people around the country that just now, like, as they heard this in their car, are singing Little Einstein.

Okay, there you go.

And then they're gonna be cursing me as that song is stuck in their head the rest of the day and.

Sending me an email for not knowing what that was from. So that's great.

You'll a couple more years. Although I'd say he's probably in. He's getting into the prime. Little Einstein's.

So let's just talk about it. So right now he definitely likes Paw Patrol. We're watching Spider man and Friends shorts, little like three minute episodes on Disney plus. But he's like Clifford Pete the Cat, Little Daniel Tiger.

It's actually got educational stuff in it. It's always about an artist, a composer.

Got it. Okay.

Good times. And the song can be stuck in your head too.

For that reason and that reason alone, we are moving on. We have a Stories of Healing episode today. We're back. We haven't done one of these in a while. We have Dan and Jan Howie on. But before we jump in and talk about today's episode, a couple things. If you have not subscribed to the podcast, don't wait any longer. You can do it and find us on all the major platforms. And look, if you give us a review, a number of things happen. One, it encourages us and definitely helps us as we continue to minister to people. But then also it helps other people find the podcast. And also you can follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We're earedesirepdmi. And if you like video content, you can get some of these episodes on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Okay, so we had Dan and Jen Howey. Dan is our online groups administrator and Jen is an executive assistant. So both now on staff, they were RGA's regional group advisors for a long time as well. And we just sat down with them and had them share their story.

Yeah, Great to have another Stories of Healing podcast. And we've done a number of those now. And, you know, I think everyone will quickly pick up on that. Dan and Jen are just real. They're honest. They talk about both the pain and the victories. And you can tell in their joking with one another that they've arrived at a good place in their marriage. Not to say arrival like now they're done, but that they're not where they were. And that story, I think, comes across loud and clear of what was and what happened along the way and what they're working through now. So I hope for listeners, even those that aren't married, that they'll really catch in this pieces of their story that apply to you. Because I think as Dan talks about his struggle, as Jen talks about being hurt, you know, whether you're single, married, divorced, or everything else, there's pieces of that story we can all relate to. And I think people will really be.

Encouraged by this and they're hilarious. So it is quite an enjoyable episode. So enjoy it. Dan and Jen, welcome back. We're glad to have you. Are you okay? So again, one of the times where I wish people saw what happened at.

The table before the pre episode today was priceless.

Oh my gosh.

Right.

So I'm just glad you're here.

We're glad you're here. Yes.

You're good looking people and we're excited to hear your story. All about the calling.

Okay, so today we've had you guys on the podcast a couple times already and we even said the first episode we have you, we will do a Stories of Healing episode with you guys. So here we are coming in in the close. So let's just jump in right away. Let's do this.

Okay.

So Dan and Jen, in most relationships, you know, there tends to be a honeymoon period in this area where, you know, the couple isn't really aware maybe of what is happening or what the other person is struggling with. And then eventually things start to come to light. So tell us a little bit about when did you guys realize this was an issue in your marriage and you needed to do something about it?

An issue in our marriage. Well, so we get the questions ahead of time. So I didn't.

Spoiler alert.

Yeah, I know. Yeah, I prepared, I thought about when did I first realize there was an issue? And what it came down to me was I realized a long, long, long, long, long time ago there was an issue. I really wasn't willing to deal with it.

Right. And that's maybe why I Ask it that way. I'm guessing you knew you had an issue for a long time, but like.

Yeah.

What surfaced it for you?

Yeah. So the surfacing was when I was just forced. So I got found out for the last time to get me to take a step different. December 11, 2012.

Day that will live in infamy.

Seriously?

Yes. There's nothing quite like sitting next to the Christmas tree having a discussion about why you've had online affairs and all the things that you denied in years past because, you know, you get found out and about all sorts of things. And I was good at denying it. She probably wasn't as good at believing it, but I denied it to the point where, you know, she. She dropped it at least. So for me, I was tired. I'd spent years in addiction and the energy it took to keep it up was overwhelming. And then I was, you know, there was kind of this undeniable evidence as my wife called a number that had popped up on my phone and when another woman answered it, that was kind of it. There was kind of like no denying it at that point. And I didn't have the energy to try to fight it. So I'm just like, well, here we go. What I had been assuming would happen for a long time was she would find out because now I'm in so deep that there's really no redeeming this. So let's just move forward. We'll have this horrible discussion and then we can move our separate ways. As you are, Jen, not willing to put up with what you shouldn't have to put up with.

Yeah.

And I'll get what I deserve. Yeah.

So how long have you guys been married at this point?

Seven years. Five years.

Five years.

Five years.

Yes.

Let's not make this a thing. We're okay.

Six years.

Somewhere in there.

Six.

Yeah.

Somewhere in the five to seven years.

I say five years because it was at the five year mark that my first husband had cheated on me. So for me, it's not just the date that lives in Infini, but that five year mark in marriage that is kind of branded on me.

Here we go again, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So much to my surprise and kind of. I don't know if I was disappointed, but she didn't, like, just walk away now. I had to, like, deal with it, you know, Like I expected her to be like, yep, that's it. Right.

I'm out.

See it.

Right. You're a total, you know, your expletive word here and walk away.

Oh, I Totally believe that.

All right. There was totally that word. But, but she was, she. She didn't walk away. And I still had the enough pleasing and pleasing.

Behavior.

Behavior that I'm like, I guess I'll just do what's asked of me. And so that's where I ended. That's how I ended up here. I didn't want to come. I didn't. I just. It. I had to because I was found out and she didn't leave. Yeah, yeah.

What a gift though, having to face it rather than just absolutely move on.

Absolutely. The easy way out would have been. Yeah.

So what was that like for you, Jen, as you discover this and choose to face it? Tell us a little bit of your side.

Well, I knew that there had been an issue when we were dating, but he would tell me just enough of the truth that it would get me just to move on and kind of forget it. And I had this mentality that, that all men struggle with porn. He was single, but when we get married, this issue will go away. You know, kind of your typical story that you hear a lot of women kind of talk about. And then it was throughout that five year period that leading up to that date that there would be little signs and symbols. But at this point, I'm in, I'm invested. And when I pressed redial on that phone that night, I had been long suspicious of behavior and I had already been in a habit of checking emails, checking text messages, looking at mileage on the car, some very hyper vigilant activity that was very unhealthy. And so when this night came, it was actually quite a relief because finally, for the first time, yeah, there was no gaslighting taking place. He literally just put it all out there and put more out there than I realized that he was even involved in. And through this process, staggered disclosure took place. But I felt like it was the very beginning of something rather than the end of something. So here he thinks it's all gonna end. I'm like, well, finally I have the truth. Finally I have something concrete. I'm not just imagining these things.

So it's the beginning for you and you felt like it was gonna be the end?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, nothing good ever happened when exposure, when you get exposed for anything.

He hadn't tried that yet though. So he hadn't experienced something good happening from the truth because he hadn't been living in truth.

Yeah.

So you find out, right? We get all this. This is out in the open now. And I think that especially in that, like Hyper vigilance. It's like, okay, here's what we're going to do. You're going to do this, this, this, this and this.

Yes.

What were those things? What were the attempts that you saw he needed to make in order to get healthy?

Oh.

Oh.

That's actually a tougher question to answer than I realized. First thing we said, I said, go, go to your counselor. Counselor says, hey, I can help you with A, B and C, but if you want to get handle on the sex addiction stuff, go, go to Pure Desire.

Okay. And the council, the counselor did mention Pure Desire.

He did?

Yep.

Wow.

Yeah. And he sent us. We went to a local church that was involved in Pure Desire and that's how we got involved with it. What. What was required for me to stay was someone who was willing to just be a part of the process to keep doing the next thing. And one thing that Pure Desire, Pure Desire promotes is to not make major decisions in that first year. And that was kind of, I guess, sort of that feminism aspect is dump, dump his, dump, dump them, move on, you're powerful, you're all these things. And. But being in this program, it allowed me and gave me permission to not do that, to just be where I was. And so for the first year, it didn't make any major decisions as long as he was walking through the process and surrendering to the process. That was the requirement for me staying. And that was really the only requirement for me at that point. It was very simple.

Yeah.

So how about for you, Dan? What were some of the attempts that you had made either at this time or even prior to this time that had never worked out in terms of making change.

This is my favorite question because. You're welcome. Yeah, thanks guys for the question. Because here's the answers that always stick out to me is the guys who say, oh, I tried a thousand times, a million times, and I just wasn't able to. Or the. The other one is I just didn't grow up with it being, you know, it was accepted. It was fine for me. It was not okay. But I didn't want to stop. Yeah, there was no. There was no desire. I never tried to stop.

Right.

Not once.

You just got really good at hiding it. Right.

Yeah. There's really only. There was two things I would just hide and manage. Manage an image, manage relationships as best I could because I didn't want to give it up. I just didn't know life without it. And so there was no. I didn't try until Pure Desire. So. And then it wasn't even about trying to stop. I'm like, I just do the next thing they say. Yeah, because I'm kind of. I don't know what else to do.

Well, part of what you've shared with me is in the genesis process, we learn about survival lies and projected lies. And, you know, one of the survival lies he. He had growing up was, don't. Don't share the bad stuff.

Or.

Or I'm. I'm. I'm a bad person, and if I share the bad stuff, that will certainly help me. And then he also learned through other relationships, the projected lie was, you're bad. You always screw up. You're never going to be enough. So he. Part. Part of why I thought I would be the answer to all of his problems was because he shared with me that he had this other relationship where what was spoken to him was that he was just going to fail no matter what. So his mentality was, well, screw it. Why not? I'm just. If I'm going to be accused of these things, I'm just going to go out and do them. So I thought, well, I won't accuse him of these things, and I'll be this perfect wife, and all my problems will be solved. Right, Right.

I won't have to deal with me anymore. Yeah, totally. But I didn't. I mean, it was. I just didn't trust anyone. There's no. There was no basis for me to believe that. Yeah, words are meaningless.

As you know, that's been a crux in our marriage, the not trusting.

Yeah.

I feel like you betrayed my trust.

Yes.

And yet.

But I demand your trust.

Right. Yeah. I feel like I'm totally trustworthy.

But you're not.

But you won't. But I am.

I don't know about that.

I feel like Jerry Springer is going to walk out here in just a second.

It's going to be more exciting. Podcast fight.

I mean, probably not on the air.

So that night, you guys are sitting by the Christmas tree. Truth is coming out that you've never had come out before. And rather than walking away, Jen stays. And so you engage in kind of this new process. What were some of the initial hurdles that you guys had to face to really start pursuing health for, you know, for yourselves as individuals, but health in your marriage as well.

For me, it was juggling two realities. So I had this reality of where I was successful in my business, I was raising my kids, I had my friends, my church, my community. But then I had this horrible reality that was on my shoulders. All the time. And because of how my first marriage ended, I felt a really big need to just protect this one and not out Dan, and so too late. But anyways, I just. I felt. Juggling the two realities. How. How. How was this really great guy doing the things that he was doing? And. And his addiction was quite deep. There were. There were. There was a lot of infidelity, and in many spectrums of it, and it just. How do I manage this reality with living this basically two different lives? And so for me, that was the toughest thing, and there was just no escaping it. It was constantly there. There was. There was the unfairness of it all. It just hit this unfairness button in my life. I'm. Like, I was saying earlier today that he went all Shane, stamped on my life with his addiction, and all I could do was resonate with Nancy Kerrigan and lay on the hard, cold ice of my life crying out, why? Why? And I just. You know, he had taken me out of the knee and my life. I was. I was. I was just devastated. But I had to keep up the image that I was okay. I felt like I had to keep it up for my kids and for everyone around me.

Yep.

The whole fake it till you make it thing, just. It can only last so long. So that was probably my biggest hurdle. Relapse was a huge hurdle. One thing I learned through the process, that if, you know, if you're not moving forward there, you know, relapse is an indicator that you have been moving forward. Essentially, you know, that there's. There's nothing to relapse from if you haven't had some sobriety. So that kind of helped me a little bit that he's. That perspective. Yeah. Yeah. It was still hard, though.

I mean, totally.

But to get to that point is what I'm saying.

Yes.

You know, you realize that that is fruit of some health for sure.

And then last.

It's hard to get there.

I think. Feeling crazy. I really. I thought there was a couple times that I wondered if I was truly potentially certifiable. I was just. And I think maybe the jury's still out on that.

I was gonna say I'm.

No, no, I'm not. No, I think you're great.

Okay. But what I realized in that process wasn't so much that I was going crazy, but. But what I was experiencing was ptsd. And so. So thank God for counseling. And Harry and Debbie were just amazing walking me through that and helping me realize that this isn't Jen going off the deep end. This is Jen and trauma and. But that's okay. You're going to be okay. So those were the hurdles that were big for me. For.

For me. And you said it. I mean, the entire benefit for my addiction was to avoid reality. So the hurdle was to experience reality. Yeah. Because honestly, I don't think I believed I could live without. Was never that clear in that, you know, all those years that I felt like I couldn't live without it, it was just something you did and, you know, just something you. It's just part of your life. And so that was by far the biggest hurdle was what do I do without it? Or why? Why can't this have a place in my life? What do I do without it? So starting to feel and then not replacing it with another coping mechanism. Yeah.

Which is so simple and easy.

Yeah.

Really?

Yeah.

Thank you. God, I'm not a workaholic because I didn't have that one to check off. So. Yeah, I shouldn't say that here. I don't know if that's a smart thing to say.

Remind me.

You're not in my department. So you basically get to the point where you start to see the hurdles or you're facing those hurdles. Finally you're starting to try to get over them. But then there tends to be this moment or a string of moments where it's like, ah, it all makes sense now. And it clicks. What was that for both of you guys?

Well, that's two parts for me. Like, intellectually. We went to. So I got involved with a seven Pillars group, and there was a PDMU like three or four months later. So Ted came in with his fire hose of brain science and just like, was like, straight. Yeah. Like against the wall. Trying to shield myself.

Trying to peel you off.

Ye.

It was brutal. Oh, and by the way, fun fact. The guy who referred me to Pure Desire was at the same pdmu and we have to do these group exercises. And he was in our group. So our counselor was. I have no idea why that's important to me, but it is. Anyway, so that experience of going through that just kind of made everything click. Like, oh, there's a reason why I'm addicted. Yeah, I just kind of understood the brain science. But the other component is. Well, for me, knowledge has always been great because I can put it in a box and place it where I want to and pull it out when I need to it and put it away when I don't. There is. And we talk about this scientific component in Pure Desire a lot. But there is Also this spiritual, emotional component. And that's really what clicked for me because it was February 14, 2014. We had been in counseling with Harry and Debbie, and we actually were at their house. They invited us. Our counselors invited us to their house for a session. And we sat in their living room and did our counseling, sort of, kind of. But it really became for me. Terry goes, have you ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit? I'm like, I'm a Baptist, dude. I don't do those sort of things. That is for baptisms, weddings. That's the times you speak about the Holy Spirit. And by that time, I had had enough work that I was kind of ready for it. And. And we did the prayer and it was great.

And he fell on the ground. I started speaking in tongues.

Yeah. Foaming. It was great.

I didn't.

Didn't foam a lot, but, you know, oh, my gosh.

We'll also be releasing footage of that experience later today.

It's grainy, but yeah, you can make it out.

Yeah, sure.

But anyway, that was a huge stepping stone for me because, you know, God started to become more real in a different way. You know, my image of God was pretty distant. Yeah. And it's still something I, you know, struggle with today. But. But it is. That was a key. That was a huge, huge moment for me.

There was definitely a paradigm shift in you at that time. There was something notably different in you. And we'd been in counseling almost a year.

Yeah.

Actually at that point when that took place. So the healing process was. We were quite a ways into it when this took place. But it did take place.

That's what's important.

Well, and I would say that is something in both my own experience and in talking to lots and lots of other couples, there tend to be those what I would call spiritual breakthroughs. And whether it's a baptism in the spirit or just a new sense of God's nearness, or an aha moment where God just reveals something in a new way. I think that's a pretty reliable part of our journey. And it's also interesting because. Because we can't really predict it or explain how it'll happen. But my encouragement for others listening to just say, be aware that this isn't just stopping a behavior, learning the information, that there are kind of some deep soul level breakthroughs of just maybe understanding what the. What a core lie is that you've listened to. And where it came is like when some of those moments come that just so clearly feel like they're from God. I think it is a significant building stone in our recovery. So just to be looking and watching for that, that it's just not getting head knowledge, but something on an emot. Spiritual level that creates that breakthrough.

Right.

So as you guys kind of got going into healing and we're, you know, seeing some traction, what were the. The tools or strategies for recovery and sobriety that really meant the most to you guys? What was. What was helping you?

Well, initially, like most people, getting into group was the thing. Yeah. To. For two reasons. One, I was having to first of all admit that I had a problem and I was breaking some isolation. I'd gone to, like, aa, you know, before, and it was, you go to a group, but you're. You're not required to. To do anything. You can show up, you can say something. You don't have to say anything. And here this was different. You know, there's actual work to do. I'm being asked to say something. I'm being asked to respond to others. We're a group of guys going through something. So that. That changed for me because I've never. I'd never had. Shouldn't say I'd never had. Very few relationships were beyond, you know, very, very surfacey stuff. So that was huge in that I learned. Well, our counselor Harry and Debbie had said, you're every day, there's no neutral days. You're moving towards health or you're moving towards relapse. So the other thing that was a major help for me was I started doing a faster scale every day because two things. One, I have zero at this point, understanding of my emotions. So that's probably a good thing to start understanding. And it filled time that was otherwise filled with idle. Yeah, idle time, which definitely was an acting out. You know, times when I would act out. So. So that was huge. Just doing something every day so that I was moving towards health. It wasn't perfect. But the other thing was we mentioned counseling was enormous for us. It truly took our marriage to the next level, to a level. So I can't speak highly enough about the counsel that we received and the way it was done. I mean, I've been to counseling before. I have a degree in counsel in psychology. And this was like nothing I'd ever experienced. So it was relational. It was relational. Right. There wasn't this power differential. Like, my counselor's here and I'm down here and they're telling me they've got.

A notepad and said, tell me more about.

And I think that's the model that Pure desire endorses and it's man, it was life changing for me. And then finally just after all that you, you still have the opportunity or I had the opportunity to just immerse myself with like minded individuals. Now I'm, now I have people who are, have more experience than me and less but we're all moving towards the same thing. So those are the people I spent my time with. I'm going to, I'm going to hang out with people. Those are the people I want. I can be real with them. We can have real conversations. So that's really important to me.

That's good stuff, Dan.

Thank you. Remember that.

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Covenant Eyes and us here at Pure Desire have been partnering for some time now and we're thankful to fight the battle for sexual integrity together. Regardless of if you're in group or not. Accountability software is an essential tool for, for sobriety and health. Covenant Eyes right now is offering a deal for you. It's a free 30 day trial of covenant Eyes if you use the promo code Pure Desire. One word. Pure Desire at checkout. So go to www.CovenantEyes.com and grab that first month free. Okay. So as we, you know, you guys have talked about, it's relational, which I think is so important. I think that that's something that you've touched on even in community. That's really important that you have people who understand the experience. They're not just teaching you about it, but also know it and have lived it out and then also having that information and how helpful that is. So those seem to be some elements, but what are some other key elements you guys have seen in your own healing, both from the addiction and from the betrayal?

Any healing at all over there? Any at all?

Go ahead.

Just spend a little bit.

Okay.

I think for me, one of the hardest things was being willing to consider that his pain was just as legitimate as mine. There was an element of, okay, I didn't speak it, but I definitely thought it verbally. Yeah, I didn't speak it verbally. I'm sure I communicated.

Face, posture.

Yeah, got it. Well, I just. When there's been betrayal and you've got a spouse that feels nothing and says nothing and is aware of what appears to be nothing in his life, it's really maddening. And I wanted him to feel something. And I felt, again, going back to the unfairness thing, like, it's so unfair that I'm feeling all these horrible things, and you don't appear to be feeling anything. So there was such an injustice there for me.

Can I just interrupt? What's fascinating about that.

Okay, go ahead, please, Dan.

Fascinating about that is in those moments, I am kind of a freezer. Go numb, out of the fight, flight, freeze. But there's also all these feelings that I had that I was unable to verbalize and share just because of two things. One, I don't know. I'm not familiar how to do it. And then, second of all, I am terrified of the response I will get from them.

Because you're a nine on the Enneagram and you don't want to disrupt.

But I just think that's because there's so many things I wanted to say. Right. But I. As soon as they came into my mind, they were gone. And I wasn't sure how to say it.

And there was a moment where, in my hyper vigilance, I had looked at some of his work. And I just want to say, ladies, if you are listening, I do not recommend looking at your husband's workbook. He's in process, and that process needs to take place as you are processing your own thing. You will damage your marriage, and you will Wholeheartedly damage your own heart. If you're looking at your husband's homework. I have so many grits behind that. So I preface that with what I'm about to say. But there was this moment where I had read some. Something and I was so angry, I wanted him to feel something that I. I called him into the room. And also so manipulative of me. I called him Dan.

Yes.

And he walks into the room, and.

I think I would. I may have been bringing you a cup of coffee, but I prepared for you, just maybe.

Right.

All good.

After. Let's start with a cup of coffee. The book was open, and I had my wedding ring placed in it. And I was communicating to him that. Well, plenty of things in that moment. And he did nothing. He stood there blank, faced, no emotion. Like. And I start. This is where I started to get in touch with my anger. I'm like, I'm telling you I'm leaving. And you're showing. You're not fighting for it. You're not feeling anything. You're not doing anything in this moment. And so going back to what I said in the beginning, being able to. Being willing to consider that his pain was just as legitimate as mine was a huge catalyst to change for me. And now I can start to see when he freezes. I can actually see his eyes darting back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, because I know that something is going on in his mind. Yeah. And I. But I couldn't see that before. I couldn't. Because all I could see was my own pain. And I wanted his responses to. To be a direct reflection of what I was feeling. And I couldn't make that happen. So for me, being willing to consider that there was a lot of pain going on in his life despite the pain that he was causing me was a huge catalyst to change for me, which pushed me into my own healing process through betrayal and beyond, of course.

That moment, you know, you were talking about how there was no emotion, the emotion or the. The message.

There was so much emotion.

There was. The message was actually was. This is what I expected all along. I get it. I mean, it was delayed. But there is a breaking point for every relationship in which I am so flawed that no one wants to be with me. Now I'm in my comfortable zone. If anything, that was the comfortable zone. I'm like, oh, the world is right again. Dan is big enough.

Well, and again, I just want to point out that what you guys are describing, I think is so, so common in relationships that the one who's been hurt can feel like I'm the only one who has a right to feel hurt. It's all about my needs and emotions now because what you've done to me and the other person can feel that regret of like, yeah, I'm the jerk and I have now I have no right to feelings or desires or needs or wants. And really, while there's some truth behind those feelings, neither of those are healthy responses that we've got to come to a place in relationships where it is okay to recognize that I've been hurt, but I'm also still aware that they have needs too. And for the other person to be able to recognize, I'm aware I have hurt them deeply, but I still have things I need to be able to express. And that doesn't make me selfish again. So that's, I think why you're describing group is so significant and important because without those relationships in our life to help process that, it's really, really hard to see. And I think couples get stuck in that where the one who's trying to recover from an addiction gets lost in their kind of penance paying mode or mindset that they don't figure out how to be helpful.

I was justified. I didn't, I didn't. I thought, I thought it was justified. This was happening to me, right? And what I, what I failed to realize was just because it was placed in my lap didn't remove me from the responsibility of dealing what was placed in my lap. And I had a responsibility of how I was going to respond to him and how I was going to respond to others. I had a responsibility on changing the narrative that was running through my head. But I didn't get there right away. It took us time.

And this is where if we quit at that point, I mean, that would have been the end. But that's the, the testament of, you know, you keep going. You don't just pack it in or you don't just stop. Because it would have been really easy. I was, you know, if you'd have said. And that is, that's it. Curtain scene. Yeah.

I'm so loving this moment.

I have.

I'm falling in love with you all over again.

Seriously, this has been just a roller coaster of an episode.

But I'm just going to say the most amazing thing. I'm going to say it without tears. No, I'm not doubtful.

Yeah, go ahead.

But to be in this moment with you, Dan, to share this, to be here, to be in this office, to be doing this podcast this is such sweet redemption. This is such a. I know we tried to never do the whole we made a baby kind of moment, but I'm having one of those moments right now doing this with you because. Because you're right. This is. This is what sticking with it looks like this is what sticking with it can produce with the help of God. And so we did it so good.

We're gonna turn the cameras away now as they start to make out.

Well, that was a perfect segue. So good to go next. That this is. This whole journey is so personal and private, and it's filled with messy stuff that we'd be rather not talk about. And I think a lot of people can feel like we're just going to get better and move on and never tell a soul. And so what helped you guys get to that point of starting to share your story? Because I know that even prior to today's podcast, that's been something you've been doing now for the last few years, is using your story to help others. So what. What gave you the courage or helped you step into that, your story being something you could share with others?

Yeah, well, obviously, for. For me, my background and my background, hearing other men and women share their story, like, we can talk about this, or there's something as bad or in my mind worse that someone's dealt with and gotten through or dealing with. That's encouraging. I think we went to. They called it Hope Night at this place.

Dave and Ramona.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they would bring in, I don't know, once every.

I don't know, once a year.

Once a year they would get some couples who had been in the process long enough and then invite everybody in. And we would sit around and there would be a panel. And one couple had been in group for a while, but they were going through a rough patch at that time. And you could tell when them standing next to each other. It was a rough patch, but they were there. And it was like, oh, it's. It's not real.

It's roses. Okay, cool. I can relate to you. Yeah, you look like me, right?

How? Like in church they bring up the drug addict and Jesus saved my. My life and got me off of drugs. But there's never this in between moment.

Where it's like, you are. You aren't. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like. And then you're good and you're set free, and then everything's good. And yeah, we're watching these people who are like, yep. And we're still working it and so listening to people be real and talk about it was obviously, for me, one of the biggest, biggest things. The second thing for me was reframing addiction as a personal failing of my character to just a really, really unhealthy response to the pain and trauma that I hadn't dealt with. Yeah. And I created some beliefs and things like that. I'm like, oh, it's not just me being built wrong. Right. It's not.

Because you can't change that.

Right, right. I cannot change who I am. And if who I am is this addicted person who's helpless to. To be a good person and a good husband, you know, that made a huge difference. I'm just. Just coping with crap. Yeah.

That's good. I would actually echo a lot of what you just said. Removing the shame from it being the identity of ourselves and of our marriage, it becomes hard not to share. Like, once that shame is removed.

Absolutely.

And you don't wear that. Oh, I'm going to go tell everyone.

I used to look at poor, but now I don't.

Yeah.

Like, that. Was it not what you guys do?

Well, no, actually, what went through my head was this woman we'd met at church that told us she used to wear a T shirt that said former masturbator on it. And so that was.

We didn't do that.

Yeah. No, no. And she used to wear it to church. And it was. It was. I digress from that.

Yep.

Yeah.

That's a lot.

Yep. So anyway, my point is, is that when we remove the shame, we can use words like masturbation and addiction and all the things that go along in the realm of sex addiction without any shame. We can talk about these subjects without any shame. And then once you've had some healing under your belt. Holy smokes.

Yeah.

I mean, it. Just try to keep us quiet. Just can't happen.

Yeah. And don't stop doing it. I mean, like, be proactive. Be ready to share.

Well, and I feel like that's what happens to. The more that you share. You see that positive response. And almost. To reuse the word, you almost get addicted to sharing your story and seeing someone. The lights turn on, something click. And it's like, oh, yes. Like, this is why I share my story, so this person can understand that this is what's going on.

Yeah. Pretty cool.

So you guys have talked a lot about, really, throughout this episode so far, how your marriage has changed. I'm interested in, like, your relationships with other couples, with people at church, your relationships with your kids, your family. How have those changed since you guys have found freedom?

They haven't. Just kidding.

That's great.

And that's today's episode. See you next week.

Yeah, it's changed everything. I think once you start to understand the dance steps that got you to where you were and you understand a different way of moving through relationships and communicating through relationships, that can't help but change everything. The way our relationship with our kids has totally shifted. They're adults and it continues to shift. One of our kids this week just said, you guys are my go to people. There's no way that we would have been our son's go to people if we had not been through this process. And at 25 years old, that's a cool thing to hear.

Huge. Tell the other story about them going through a marriage group.

We had asked my son and daughter in law how things were going. They were explaining this class that they had been through and they were a little frustrated with the content of it. I'm so sorry, you guys, I'm outing you right now. But they were frustrated with the content of this marriage class.

So critical. How dare you.

I'm just kidding.

And I asked and I said, well, why is that? And Noah says, well, because we have you as parents. Look what you guys have taught us and the way they operate and the way they talk and the way they process has completely shifted in the last seven years that now when they get into material that's not deep and getting to the roots of stuff they get, they. It's not as satisfying. You know what I mean? And because they are who they are, they have found a lot of fruit in just looking at the material for what it is. But they also find a lot of value in the depth. And that's only in seven years, you guys. Our kids were practically grown at the time. And I was really angry that it took so well. Why didn't you save us sooner, Lord? So that we could have blessed our kids and we could have. But God is so faithful.

Yes.

And it didn't take long.

It didn't take long. He should. God shifted everything. And we've got five kids and each and every relationship is changing very subtly and in very beautiful ways. So I didn't really fully answer the question and how. But it is changing.

No, you did answer the question. I think this is really important that people who are listening to this right now understand that once your kids are grown, it's not like the relationship is over and you no longer are teaching them or shaping them or helping them. It Maybe changes the dynamic. They're not in your house, they're getting married. They've got their own families. But you guys are a testament that that can still happen.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I was like, I wish we could have a do over. And then just a couple years in, you know, things just changed. It was nothing I expected.

It was better than a do over. It was a redo.

It was a redo. And we. And with friends, I mean, it was.

It was good.

It was good. Yeah. Friends. Friends, on the other hand, you know, you. You come out of a pretty rough time and, you know, for us, we had to kind of reboot redo our. The way we, the way we lived. And that meant pulling back a lot. We. We lived in busyness, kept ourselves busy, and that was really where our relationship sat with a lot of people. We had lots of acquaintances and people we'd call friends, but we didn't know their stuff. They certainly didn't know our stuff, at least the stuff we didn't want them to know. Now our friendships are deep. Like, we don't sit around and talk about. We might talk about the weather, but, you know, more often than not, we're talking about, oh, my, you know, my kid's doing this and what do I do and how do I. How do I stay a good parent? I mean, it's just a completely different, you know, conversation. And it's hard to be in a relationship with someone who's not at that level anymore.

Yeah. You forget that your normal is still abnormal.

Yeah, so true.

My wife and I will just be, you know, in the kitchen talking about something, and you'll be, well, I wonder what their trauma story is. And they're probably reacting. I thought they had a very strict father. And you're just like, analyzing through the lens of your group experience and just. Because you just see how everything is connected and you're not just willing to stay on the surface because you don't really feel like you know someone if you don't.

Yeah.

Kind of know some of their story too. And so we're, so. We're so excited to have you guys, you know, on the team and sharing your story and continuing to be people that learn and grow and see what God is doing in your life. And so for people that are listening today, and maybe they're in a similar place, you know, they're experiencing a lot of joy and fruit and victory, or maybe they're at the very beginning, you know, maybe they're listening today looking for hope because they're just starting this process. What kind of encouragement or challenge or just thoughts would you like to leave folks with today?

I'll go first because she's going to have better words to say she's good cheerleader.

Thanks, Dan.

Actually, you were a cheerleader.

Okay, we're not going there.

Different episode.

Oh, my gosh. I just am trying to think through my head the description I'm have to write later for this episode, all the different topics we hit on. Okay, please answer the question.

Anyway, number one, and I can only speak for myself because this was so encouraging for me, is I'm not alone. There's actually people here who understand and actually support me and my wife and our marriage and our family through this process. I don't have to figure it all out and do it alone. So that led me to the second thing was, and it took me a while to figure this out is it's actually possible. You know, for a long time I was just like, okay, we'll see what it is. Yep, I'll do this little lesson and make my little calls. I like to use the word little, apparently, but I just kind of went through it and I realized, well, this is actually. This works. It's possible to do this. And the other thing that's encouraging, that I really wish I could get across is healing is going to be way better and way different from what you think. Like, if you come in with the pornography addiction and you go, if I could just get rid of that, things would be better. You're right. And you. And you can probably do that, but pure desire helps in so many other ways. My life and relationships changed so drastically in ways I. I couldn't even fathom. I just. God was like, I'm waiting for this to happen, and then this whole world opens up you don't even know about. And I've been trying to tell you about it, but you. You're not there. Yeah. And. And so your life and your. Your whole life is going to change in ways you couldn't expect. That's all I'm going to say. Because, I mean, that was.

That was good.

Yeah. Let's cut.

If I had a word of encouragement to my sisters out there, it would. It would be that you can do this. There's going to be a day when you no longer cry in the shower so that people don't hear you. And there's going to be a day when you don't have to look at his text messages or check the mileage on the car or his homework or whatever so that you Feel like you know your current reality because you feel like there's no other way to know other than having to find out the answers yourselves. And there's going to be a day when you laugh again and when you laugh with him again. That is such a magical moment. But that day is coming. There's a day when your sex life is going to be better and more amazing in ways that you really don't expect it to be. And there's going to be a day where you're going to be able to high five your spouse and say, we did it, baby. There is going to be a day that that happens. And that's what healing looks like. It's a surrendering to that process, knowing that people have gone before you and they've had success. And with the hope help of the Holy Spirit, you too can have that same success in. In your own marriage and inside of yourself, knowing no matter what happens, it's gonna be good. It's gonna be okay. And that's what pure desire has done for. For us and continues to do for us. It's still a process. Always in process. Yeah, but that day's coming.

It's coming.

Yeah. So encouraging to know that people like you have walked this road and many others. And I. I know your story is going to encourage a lot of people. So thanks, you guys for being who you are and for being faithful to share your story and let God use it.

Thank you.

Thanks.

And wherever you're at on your journey, just know that pure desire is here to help create that road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and you can start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. It's free. Share it with your friends and family. And if you write a review, it helps us as well. And lastly, never stop being health.