147 - Myth Busters: Not In My Church

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Happy day to you people. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 147 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

It's on.

What's on?

Yeah.

I'm so glad you responded that way because that's exactly what I said when I was a high schooler and I heard a teammate, you know, say something about, you know, it's on tonight. And I said, what's on? And they went and laughed about how funny it was that I asked, what's on? Because they just meant it's on. Like that was the phrase. Got it. And it's actually part of my trauma story because I felt so stupid in the way I was mocked. But it's a great lead in to today's episode because I think we're talking about this issue in churches where we feel like we just don't know how to address it. We might even feel stupid about it, and so we shy away from it. And we're going to try to help provide some direction on that today. So thanks for. It's on.

Thanks for sharing a little bit of your trauma story, too.

That's just a snapshot.

Surreal. Yeah.

High school sports in general, that could be an episode in and of itself. So we'll save that for another time.

Okay. Maybe another podcast. So we have another Mythbusters episode for you. I'm going to say that again. We have another Myth Busters episode for you. We're gonna leave that in. Cause I want people to know that this is a hard job. But real quick, couple things. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. Don't do it. Don't wait. Don't do it. Do it, don't wait. Gosh, I'm just struggling. You can find us on all the major platforms. Give us a review. Helps people find the podcast. And then also, if you could follow us on social media, keep up with our message and what we're pushing out, you can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram earedesirepdmi. And if you'd like to consume video content, we've got some of the episodes up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Okay. So we sat down with Rodney Wright, advancement specialist for Pure Desire, and him and his wife have authored our new parenting resource, how to talk with your kids about sex. We talked about the myth that many Christian leaders fall into and that is that sexual addiction is not in my church.

Yeah.

It's such a great conversation because I think this is human nature. You know, whether we're in leadership at a church or we're a parent, we can feel like, well, not in. Not in my family. My kids won't do that or not in my church. There's just something about human nature that when there's issues, problems, concerns, we kind of want to keep it distant from us. And so we just. We address that. We address what leads to that and what we can do in our churches to really embrace the reality of this and not kind of live with our head stuck in the sand. And for those that know Rodney Wright, they know he's a straight shooter. He's passionate about this, and I think they'll gain a lot from his perspective and just the dialogue we had back and forth.

Andy's hilarious, so that also helps. So enjoy the episode. Rodney Wright, glad to have you back, man. Thanks for being here.

You're welcome. Glad to be here. We're going to make this one concise, sometimes less.

We will see about that.

That's when you have three pastors on a podcast. I don't know if that's possible, but.

We'Ll do our best.

Interestingly enough, that's a great segue. We're jumping into an episode today, another mythbusters episode. And this is the myth that a lot of pastors and leaders begin to or start off believing that sexual addiction is not in my church. And so you guys have both had a lot of experience being pastors, being in the church. And then now we're on the health side of recovery. So I'm interested just to even press into you guys experience a little bit more today. So let's just start with this. Each of us right here have been pastors or currently pastors. We know pastors as friends as well. And I don't think that any of us, when we're just sitting there thinking about our congregations, we're like, I've got the perfect church. No one here is messy.

We're doing pretty good.

Yeah, like, everything's all right. But we know there are a lot of issues. We know there are a lot of struggles. But when it comes to sexual addiction, for some reason, there's this like, no, it's not in my church. My people don't struggle with this. Why do you guys think that is?

Well, I just remember sometime a pastor saying to me at one time, you know, if we found out about it, what would we do? You know, where would we point them for help other than come forward and let's pray for you? And, you know, not knowing really what to. How to equip people, I think is part of the issue that, you know, maybe keeps people in not wanting to open Pandora's box, as one of my friends said one time, because not knowing, you know, what to do or how to point people with that. I always knew church was messy because I was in the pastoral care department where the problems knocked on my door.

Right.

So for me, I was just aware, yeah, there's a lot of broken people. It looks different in a lot of different ways. But I think that sexuality issue was just hard to talk about for a lot of reasons. Yeah.

It's interesting you say that, Rodney, because I've heard from a number of care pastors, counseling pastors, who say, we know it's an issue because we're hearing about it all the time. Everyone who comes in, it seems like this is a part of their issue or their story, and yet they will feel like sometimes their voice isn't heard by the whole leadership or congregation. And I think, as I think about the question, Trevor, it just human nature. It's easier to believe it's out there somewhere else, it's those people, or it must be an east coast thing, or it's a west coast thing, or it's a mainline denomination or that's just in the fringe denominations, or if we can make it about someone else, that's easier. I mean, it's kind of like what is happening around the globe right now with the coronavirus that when it was just in this little part of Wuhan, China, for the rest of us, like, out of sight, out of mind, no big deal. Not here. But if someone we know in our city ends up contracting the virus, well, then we're going to. All of a sudden, we have to do something. We have to change our lives. And it was a lot easier when it was just in Wuhan, China. And I think we want to do that with sexual addiction. It's just easier if it's out there, then to your point, Rodney, we don't have to deal with it. And I think you add to that what we have seen almost across the board, doesn't matter the denomination. The background is this is just a taboo topic in churches. People don't know how to talk about it at home, and so they certainly don't know how to talk about it at church. So the reality is we don't bring it up with one another. And so that can lead Us to feel like, well, no one ever talks about it. It must not be a problem here. So we make some false assumptions based on a lack of hearing about it without considering that, well, the reason we don't hear about it is because that's what we've all been taught. You just don't talk about this.

Yeah.

And so we're seeing the church just be a mirror of what most of us experienced in our home environment. And so then we feel like, oh, it must not be a problem.

Yeah, I think, too, like, I've heard stories, and I mean, you know, I was raised in the church. I know that this is a reality that people don't talk about sex, sexuality, anything of that nature. And it's really difficult to do, as you guys are saying. But I think a lot of that, too, a lot of this believe in this myth. I've heard a couple things. I've heard, one, there are pastors or leaders in the church who just don't struggle in this area. And so they assume that this is not something that other people would struggle with. You know, I've never been an alcoholic in my life, so I don't walk around assuming other people are struggling with it. And it almost comes off as a surprise when it's like, oh, I had no idea. A lot of that is just my own ignorance based on my own experience. So that's one area or one part, I think, that can lead people to believe this myth. But the other one, and I recently heard this from a friend, that there are people who are pastors or leaders in the church who assume if you're a pastor, you've already dealt with this stuff. You must have already been to a place spiritually, sexually. Your maturity is to this point that of course you're healthy because you're a pastor. And really, in a lot of ways, that's extremely ignorant. Because even if they have been healthy, what I've experienced as a pastor in my experience has been it's one of the most isolating and difficult positions you can find yourself in, especially if you're unhealthy. So I think this is just. Could be the breeding ground for secret sin. So I've just seen that those two things that either they haven't personally struggled or they just assume because you're a Christian or a pastor, you must be mature.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I would just go back to just a lack of overall communication about sexuality in religion.

Yeah.

So it's just not talked about in any perspective. Healthy, unhealthy, educate, train. If there's just not that baseline. Then again, it's what we don't talk about. And if it's a little confusing, it's the old saying. I think if there's a mist in the pulpit, there's a fog in the pew.

Yeah. Right.

So if there's uncertainty coming from the pulpit, like we don't ever want to talk about it, then I think even more so, the person sitting there say, oh, my religion doesn't talk about this, so where would I go if I did struggle? I must be the only one, you know? And again, I think that isolation is what sets in and keeps us from being vulnerable.

Yeah, Yeah. I think what we're trying to do on this podcast and in a lot of ways as a ministry, is help people change that paradigm, help people think differently about God and sexuality and how it integrates with our faith and that this isn't some left field, you know, out of bounds topic. This is kind of, kind of the core of who we are and how God made us. And so that's the point of trying to bust this myth. So let's keep leaning into that. Rodney, why do you think it's so hard for pastors and leaders to admit that sexual addiction might be present in their church? Like what, what keeps them from kind of embracing the reality that, no, this, this might be my church and I need to do something about it?

Well, you know, I think it could be of multiple reasons. I think one of them just is the fact of maybe in our church we're emotionally based. And so there's a lot of sense of we've got the victory and we're a spirit filled church. And so, you know, we call people forward and pray for them. So therefore, you know, we've, you know, we've dealt with it all we know to do, so there must not be an issue. And I think probably as well as maybe again, not knowing what to do if someone says, I've been to the altar, I prayed, I'm confessing, but I'm not transforming. Does the leader know what to do? And would they be okay with embracing some of the clinical research that's out there with the biblical truth and saying, hey, both of these are spiritual and both of these can help people transform. And so I think that's a piece of Nick, maybe why pastors have a hard time maybe admitting that that's a real issue just because again, they don't really have clarity of what to do, to walk somebody through toward healing on either side of that.

Yeah, I think too that if your church is struggling as a pastor, whether this is right or not, there is this feeling of I have to claim responsibility for what's going on in my church, that if my people are struggling, then that's on me. Somehow. I'm not either talking about it enough or giving enough tools or. And let's be honest, like, man, I mean this. I'll just speak from my experience. I struggled with pride consistently every day of being a pastor. That's just the world I felt like I had to fight every single day. And so the fact that I'd have to own, well, I'm a part of maybe creating the culture where people can't address this in my church, that's really hard for a pastor to do.

It feels like admitting failure.

That's 100%. And I think that that's really what it gets to, is that if I am admitting that my church is struggling or people in my church are struggling with this area, I have somehow failed as a pastor. And man, especially as a pastor, I felt like my identity was so wrapped up in the mission or the calling or the role of pastor, to admit failure meant that somehow I was devaluing my value in the Lord's eyes or my ministry or my call.

Yeah, I so agree with what you guys are saying that we feel like to admit there's these huge issues, might be saying my preaching's not good enough or our discipleship isn't good enough, our programs aren't good enough. And that's a hard pill to swallow. But I think a lot of it is rooted in a bigger context. When you look at the majority of churches we work with, and probably of people listening to this podcast come out of the evangelical tradition. And the evangelical tradition was really born out of the experience of faith in Christ that Jesus is enough for all that I need. And we wrote songs about it, that all you need is Jesus, and Jesus is all the world needs. And. And there is absolute truth to that, that for our salvation and for our life eternal with God, Jesus is the only answer to defying salvation. It's not our works. It's not good deeds. It's not doing the right things. It is Jesus. But unfortunately, in much of evangelicalism, we've adopted that message to mean Jesus is enough for whatever the question is, all I need is Jesus. And that's simply not true. You know, we listened to an interview Josh McDowell gave recently where he said it real plainly. He said, jesus is not enough. And he said, I know that sounds like heresy, but if Jesus was enough for all of my problems and anything I need, all I do is get more Jesus. Then why does the New Testament over 50 times instruct us to do things with one another, to love one another, to carry one another's burdens, to pray with one another, confess to one another? He said, we need other people. We need people that walk into our lives, people that are mentors and teachers and friends and support and says, yes, Jesus is a critical component, but there's more than just praying harder to Jesus and all my problems get fixed. But unfortunately, I think if we look at the model of our churches and what you were saying, Rodney, about the come to the altar and confess it, surrender and get this new filling of the spirit and of Jesus, we're still kind of in that model of if I'm struggling with something, I just get more Jesus. But the way we've embraced that is that it's just a personal thing where really more of Jesus comes through more community and more support and more help and more understanding what's going on inside side, not just praying a prayer and suddenly I'm miraculously fixed.

Well, and that's cleaner, let's be honest. Like, that's the cleaner way to do it. Like, if I could just go to the altar and get healed.

Right, right. And I think this is where, like, for Rodney, I don't need Jesus. I mean, I need Jesus, but I also need a mechanic when my car breaks down and I need a doctor when my body's gone.

Yeah, that's right.

You understand what I'm saying? So I think this is where we've hijacked spirituality to. And now what it becomes is what we call, what I would call, or I've heard, called spiritual bypass. So instead of just saying we're wired relationally, made in the image of the Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit. We're made for openness and honesty and sharing our struggles. But somehow, some way our faith has seen, like you just need a quick prayer or quote this promise rather than to be open and honest and share and get you to the right people and resources that can help you. So I think spiritual bypass is a piece of that where we just want people to look good, but don't tell us what's really going on underneath the surface. You know what I mean? Right. And I think exactly what you're saying. I agree with Josh McDowell. Jesus isn't enough. That's why he created the world and plants for us to eat. And we're all connected here. We all need each other. And I Think if you don't have that holistic view, then it puts a lot of pressure on everything being taken care of for 1 hour and 15 minutes on Sunday in a church service.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

And then that becomes the spiritual bypass. Rather than calling us to relationships where we open up our lives and say, hey, things aren't going well. Whether that's my sexuality or traumatic experience or you fill in the blank that's, I find, where more people transform. And so part of it is just, you know, not putting all of our eggs in the weekend service, basketball, thinking this is what church is. And I know that may step on some toes, and I know that's kind of the economic driving force for a lot of western church. But I found the reality of what helps people transform is when they turn the chairs face to face and open up their lives and begin to integrate truth into what's really going on in their life, you know? Yeah.

So good.

So let's just. Let's kind of take a little detour, if you will. Let's say that we're not a pastor or a leader or maybe like my experience, I was the youth pastor. I don't have tons and tons of authority on staff. But your leaders maybe don't like the elders or the lead pastor or executive team or whatever you want to call it. They aren't convinced that this is an issue. So if you're just a churchgoer or a volunteer or maybe one of the lower level leaders or pastors in your church, how do you open up that conversation? How do we present this to our pastors to be able to see that reality?

I just go back to, you know, for me, at our church, it was a friend, Joe McCarthy. And I think those of you know, Joe. Joe's just a passionate guy that went through AA for 20 years and doesn't know you're not supposed to talk about certain things in church. He didn't have any of that with him. You know, he just comes in and says, hey, what are we doing about sexual addiction? Rod at the church. And he felt safe to ask me. And it was about a year into his faith journey. And I think what Joe did is Joe found a champion in the church. And Joe was willing to say, hey, I'll carry the torch with you. So, you know, if you're in a church where maybe your lead pastor or other staff, you know, ask God, lead me to the right person because I want to transform and help other people transform, especially if this has been a part of your story. And I don't know if that completely answers that question, Trevor, but I think it's maybe a piece of that.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

Finding those people who are going to be champions. And if it's not your lead pastor, and I don't mean that in a bad way, because they can't always champion everything. You know what I mean? But you might find that right person who says, I'll lead with authenticity with you, and let's help people in this arena, because it's a real issue.

Yeah.

Well, Tracy and I are going to a church in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, Central Baptist Large Church. And the guy that's bringing us back is the recovery pastor, and he's the one that's championing the cause of education and training and this whole issue. It's a large church. His lead pastor is not necessarily doing it, but he's the one that's championing the cause in his congregation. So don't put all the eggs in the lead pastor's basket. If you feel a call to do something, do it. And that's been my story. I wasn't the lead pastor, but I felt called the champion with Joe and can become real fruitful.

Yeah, I think we've got to go where the door is open and trust that the Holy Spirit will use that. Another thing I was thinking about would be just to turn the mirror of what Rodney said, where churches tend to put all their eggs in the Sunday morning basket. I think a lot of us as churchgoers do the same thing. We're like, I go to church and in that hour, sermon and worship, I need my life to be changed and fixed. And if it's not, I blame the church. And I think, well, they're not preaching right or they're not giving me the right food, where we've got to make sure we're willing to engage in a relationship if there's an issue in our life that we're willing to be open and go to a group and get help. Because a lot of us are in the same mode of we just show up in that morning. And so I think that'd be a starting place of saying, are you engaging in multiple levels at your church and really pursuing the relationships and community that is there? And then as you're doing that, I do encourage you want to speak in love, that it's easy to get burned out in the church or to think, oh, they're not doing anything about this. And so we become a little bitter or critical or, you know, it's easy to Sit on the sidelines and feel like we know how to fix our church and make it healthy. Realize that the people leading your church are. They're doing their best. They want to honor God. And if you are critical or leaning away, your message or your story isn't going to be heard very well. But if you're leaning in and in love, saying, I, I feel called to this church. I love what God is doing here. I love the people. And I just, I want to see us walk in the wholeness of what he has for us. So how could we address pornography and sexual issues? And so I think that comes in those conversations with the staff member. You do know, whether it's a lead pastor or someone on staff that you could just grab coffee and share what you see out of love, share your story. That will make more of a difference than you realize, that even if that moment, they don't go back and relaunch a whole new program. Your voice being heard, as a former senior pastor, I know that, hey, if I had that conversation one time, I respected it. It got me thinking. And if God was up to something, I would hear that story a second time. And then a third person is like, holy cow. A lot of people are bringing this up. And that actually becomes, I think, one of the ways the Holy Spirit really does influence a church. So if you're feeling this and seeing this in your church, you may be one voice, but you need to trust that, that you may be one of a whole lot of voices the Holy Spirit is prompting. So take advantage of those opportunities, share your story and trust that God will use it.

Yeah, I think I 100% agree, and I think it's important to share our story. What I have seen people do is use their story to try to manipulate or entice or get the pastor to buy into this. And I would just suggest, don't do that. Just share your story and share your experience. And we've heard this from so many people, even on Pure Desire's team, on our staff at other churches, that even if your pastor doesn't buy in, why can't you carry the mantle? Why can't you press into your own healing and go find those resources, whether it's Pure Desire or someone else, Regardless, getting into recovery and getting into health, because whether or not your pastor presses into this, your leader presses into this, if they love you and they are a good pastor, which we believe that they are, they're going to want to help you, so they're going to be looking for resources and they're going to want to help you, even though they may not have the answer right away.

Well, and this is Trevor. This is where I would get on my soapbox about pure desire. So when Joe invited me to go hear Dr. Ted and Diane, when I came back to my lead, Pastor Mike, I wasn't just like saying, hey, there's a problem, we ought to do something. I was saying, I found an organization that's going to give us the resource to know what to do. And I'd like to champion that with my friend Joe and my friend Ashley. And, you know, so for us, it was great. This is where pure desire is such a wonderful gift because you don't have to reinvent the will and you don't have to say to your pastor, hey, what are you doing? You can say, here's what we're going to do and I'll be the point person for you, Pastor. Hey, that's an answer to most pastors prayer, you know, and they would say, rodney, thank you so much. And this is great that you're going to do it or whoever that person is. And this is where pure desire, it's got programs for men and women we know unravel betrayal beyond seven pillars, conquer. And you can get the ball rolling with not just bugging the pastor. What should you do? What should you do? But hey, come with a plan saying, I can do something here. Because the role of the pastor is to release people in ministry, not to do everything.

Yeah, yeah. We've all had people come to us that have, you know, I've got a problem and you need to fix it. And I know as a pastor, I'd just be like, well, thanks, but I got a lot of other problems I'm working on.

I'm not a car mechanic. I don't know how to help you with your car. But I know this guy over here who's in our church.

I remember when Ashley Jameson came in my office and said, I know we have something for men, but what are we doing for women? And I said, well, I've been praying that God would bring us the right leader. And I think I'm looking at it right now. Ashley, you know, and she. And that was Ashley's just, okay, I'll do it.

And we all have benefited from that conversation. Yes, that's right.

There was a program that Ashley could grab onto and get some help and get the ball rolling with that. She didn't have to reinvent something on her own. And that's the beauty of what pure desire can bring to churches. And so this is where calling Rich, calling Ashley, talking to one of our staff about how you can start with a footwork into your congregation to start educating, start resourcing, you know, get your small group pastor, men and women involved in helping start these in your local congregations.

Yeah, I remember as a pastor, I'd had a number of people come to me and say, oh, you know, we need to do something in the community. The schools are really hurting. We need to be more involved in the schools. And I was always like, yeah, great, we do. But we didn't do anything until two young moms came to me and said, we got to do more in the community. We got involved in the schools. And here's a program we've seen at another church and we want to run it. If you will just announce it, we'll do all the work. And here's what it looks like. And I'm like, great. And then we did something because I could announce, I could release them, I could support them, I could even provide finances, but I didn't have the time to figure out the program and do it myself. So those two gals started a new ministry of our church that really had an impact on the schools for a number of years. So I think of listeners that maybe you're that person that's been waiting for your church to start something. And right now, as the three of us talk, the Holy Spirit's saying, yeah, I've been waiting for you to start something. Why don't you go to the church and offer your assistance?

That's right.

We'd love to hear how God uses you.

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So if we're maybe spreading, starting to see the reality of this issue and ready to bust through this myth, how do we help people in our church see the reality of sexual addiction and its presence in our church? How do we help create that culture where we can start to face it?

You know, I really recommend finding somebody that's gone through healing and not just sobriety, but healing of their shame that can share their story. And, you know, there's nothing like vulnerability and openness that says, this was my journey, this is what helped me. And there's help out here available as well. So I know in our congregation I kind of led the way in sharing my story. And that was a big piece, I think of just saying, oh, I guess it's okay. Rodney shares his story about going to a therapist in his twenties and getting help with this. And now he's bringing this program here. And then more and more as people hear, it's just amazing that, you know, shame gets lowered. Yep. And getting help seems to be the more. It's just what you would want to do, you know, because your church is saying we've got bigger on ramps now toward getting into group and there's resources here to help in this area.

I flexed a pastor muscle a little bit. I have three S's for this. Oh my.

God. I know.

It just came to me. Just stats, stories and success. So stats being you know, there's been a lot of research by Barna Josh McDowell, Covenant Eyes. There's a lot, not even just Christians. There's a lot of just statistics everywhere about this issue. No, you don't.

It's everywhere.

And don't use it as a. Don't be a fear monger. That's not what I'm saying. But use that as like, let's just sober out for a second and see the reality of this issue. And then stories is exactly what you're talking about, Rodney. And then success being also allowing people to see what health in the area of sexuality looks like. People getting up there sharing their stories, not only their stories of health, but the stories of how their family changed, their relationships changed, how a community group or even an entire church has changed. And so start to share those success stories as well. Not just I was broken, now I'm healed. It's an extension of that. Now I'm continuing to live out in health and setting a new trajectory for generations.

Yeah, and I keep thinking about how important our language and the tone we use is in particular. Like, what pronouns do we use when we talk about pornography and sexual addiction? Is that those people and those of you and them out there and those addicts, and now you've immediately created a category that nobody wants to be in even if they know they are struggling? It's like, how do I avoid being one of those people? So tone and language and pronouns means all of us, that we are all born sexual beings and we're all born into sin, which means our sexuality, whether we wanted to or not, whether we meant to or not, our sexuality was impacted by sin. And there's brokenness there. We all need to talk about it. This is for all of us. When you create that kind of language and tone around it, then as you share those stories and talk about plans and groups, now there's a freedom to say, oh, this is for us, not for them or those of you. And so just being really mindful about the tone you set either scares people away and makes them not want to be included or helps them lean in and feel safe. That, oh, this is. This is something our church is doing. This is for all of us.

Well, I think that part of the bad rap is that we've made recovery for those people. And I thank God for celebrate recovery and the fruit that it's born and AASA 7, all that stuff. But the reality is every human being needs recovery. We're all addicted to our way of thinking. It's the universal sin. So Somehow, it's not just we have groups for those people. Your brokenness may look different than mine, but we all need recovery. That's the heart of the gospel, right? To bring healing to our souls. And so, again, I like that. Not making us versus them language, but wherever your struggle is at, we want to help you in that regard.

I think it kind of comes down to, do we assume that just a few people in our church need this, or do we assume that pretty much everyone needs it? Because I think the myth is that, well, we assume only a few people need it, so it's kind of that, well, if anyone wants to maybe do this, because there's only a few of you, the way we talk about it changes. But if we assume that everyone needs recovery from something, everyone's got trauma and wounds and problems and issues, then the way we talk about it will just. It'll sound different because we assume probably everyone needs it. And whether it's specific to sexual addiction or other issues, it'll create a much better paradigm for people to step in.

I think it's. Again, it goes back to. There's this. I don't know what it is. We just want church to be clean and crisp and white, and it's not. It's messy and it's dirty, and it's a lot of hard work. Our friend James Reeves, who's been. Who's a pastor in Texas and on the Conquer series, like, he views his church as a hospital church. People walk in completely broken, and everyone is expected to share. He said after. I think he said this in one of our. He was speaking at one of our men's conferences. Like, after you've been to the hospital for a number of weeks, like, the back of your robe is now, like, untied, and you're just running through the halls. Like, everyone kind of has seen all the mess of your life. And he said that that's what the church should be like. And so that's the visual I get. And I would just encourage people to understand that. Figuratively, of course. Yes, please. Right. All the church leaders listening to this.

Appropriate.

We've now had streaking through the service. We got real charismatic this weekend. But I just think that still, that idea of we need to be okay, we need to trust the Lord, that he does and will continue to work in the messy areas of our life. And we, as pastors, leaders, shepherds of people, need to be willing to step into that, even if it's a lot of hard work. All right, guys, so let's wrap this episode up with if we are the pastor, we're the leader. And again, this is kind of going to your idea of tone and language. How do we bring this up? How do we talk about it from the front? How do we encourage people to step into health and to recovery without shaming them? Because it's such a difficult thing to do. People carry it anyways. One word that they hear differently or filter it one way is going to just release this bomb of shame in their life. How do we do it?

Well, I'm just going to be a stickler on this one. Educate, educate, educate, educate, educate. So the more you educate your congregation about, about the challenge of unwanted sexual behavior, of the dangers of pornography, of how it affects our kids, the more you just take an educational approach that we care. Here's what I realize. Everybody cares for the five year old in the nursery or in the kindergarten class. Everybody cares for that kid. Everybody wants the best for that kid. And nobody assumes that that kid's just, you know, got a demon in them, figuratively, you know, out of control. Right. You understand what I'm saying? So, so if you start just by saying this is a real issue that our kids face in the world of technology and a sex saturated culture where everything gets sexualized and you start the education in your congregation about how can we talk about this from a healthy point of view? And again, that's why that's one of the things we offer at Pure Desire is doing education. If you use the Conquer series as education. I just talked to a church yesterday about that Start. The Conquer series is educating every man about how pornography affects our kids and grandkids. Then all the women are going to be elbowing their husbands saying, hey, you got to go to that because we all want to help our kid. That's how you lower shame. Because everybody wants to help the next generation, you know, but we don't always know how to do that, you know, And I, I just know 45 years ago, when my dad was a pastor in California, at his congregation, staff members had struggled, board members had struggle, congregants had struggle, but they just didn't. We. There was no tools to know how to talk or educate people what to do with it. So God bless them, they just did the best they could. But again, it didn't pass on health to the future generations behind them. Yeah, right. So I'm just a real stickler for saying start with education. That's a low shaming approach and that's about bringing people in that can help.

Communicate that And I think one of the mistakes we maybe make is we tend to think from big to small. Like, well, if we're going to address this in the church, we got to start at the weekend service. We got to start from the platform like and just from the very get go. It's for everybody right away. And I hope your church will get there where you are addressing this from the platform. But I think it's much better to think small to big. So the starting point for me, if you're a pastor or leader, is to say, do you feel shame and does this issue freak you out? Because if you're feeling shame or freaked out about the idea of facing it and dealing with doesn't matter where you're going, you won't be able to do that well. And so if, does that mean some personal counseling? Does that mean going and meeting with others that have walked this road and understanding, well, how do you do this in your church? And you as an individual have to have at least some comfort level. And then from there could you grow it maybe to your small group? Or if you have a staff team or an elder team that the six or seven of you just what Rodney said, you could get educated, the leadership team or the staff team could watch the CONQUER series together and just start getting comfortable as a leadership team, having those conversations. Because if you've taken some of those steps that individually you've worked through some stuff you've processed, you feel comfortable bringing this up and your leadership team has talked about it, then when you do begin to talk and present things from the stage or at weekend services, you're doing it out of this place to say, hey, as leaders, we care about our body and here's what we think God is doing. And it's not just okay, it's all up to me all by myself to kind of open up this door and hope nobody runs away screaming in fear. It kind of is this growth process. So I think if you think of it that way, think small to large. It'll really help you implement things in a way that the church will be ready for and that can be well embraced.

Yeah, I think a practical thing for me is when you're using in your sermons and maybe this isn't something.

You.

Know, you're not gonna. Here's the thing, don't just like start a series and go through every single verse that talks about sexuality and that's what you do, you just hammer it home. But if you're talking about brokenness, you're talking about sin, you're talking about difficulties in life. Use examples in this arena. Use pornography, use sexual brokenness. Use marital strife. Use a lack of intimacy in marriage. Use those as examples or even use some as illustrations just to bring it into the light. Bring it into this is something that other people experience. Yes, 100%. And then also, like, don't shy away from using language. Like, I don't mean expletive language. I mean, like saying penis and vagina and using the word masturbation and using the word sexual brokenness or even the word sex. It's okay to say those things from the stage. Now, depending on where the culture of your church is, play that by ear. Don't necessarily just go out and start your sermon like Rodney does sometimes, and just say all these words, but still use that language because we need to.

Do that if you need help.

Right. If you just say, well, that part of the body, then you're immediately injecting shame into the topic. And so I think just being really, again, Nick, to your point, being intentional about the language that we use and speaking about it maybe more freely than we have in the past.

Yeah. Society certainly isn't shy about using certain words and terminology. And so we need to be comfortable talking about reality. So we don't want to give into slang or the terminology of our culture, but we'd rather have people hear appropriate usage of. Of body and struggle and what's happening so that when they do understand or hear things in culture, they can see why it's slang or why that's maybe an inappropriate way because they've heard what's right and good and true. So that's. Yeah, I just agree with what you're saying there.

Yep. I think shame's our real enemy. And so as you, as a church team, as staff members, get together or leaders, how do we fight shame in our culture here? How do we become a faith community where, you know, shame's not tolerated? And we want people to be authentic and real and moving toward transformation in Christ. And I think just keeping your eye on the goal, not just about attendance, but who's transforming and are we sharing our stories of that and is our shame healing as leaders? I think that's a great place to start. So when Nick said, start small and then move toward the large man, if staff were to do this, if lead pastors were to say, let's take our staff through conquer, let's do some work to make sure all of our young staff that join our team go through a seven pillars, or, you know, if you're Just resourcing that culture. Boy, you're really being proactive, I think, to create a culture where there is no shame.

Yeah. And I mean, just from our conversation, it's obvious that believing in this myth that sexual addiction is not in your church has a massive effect on the culture of your body. That, you know, you not only think of the people whose lives are being torn up by living in secret, but their marriages are being torn apart, their families are creating a more and more worse and destructive trajectory. Just think about the reality of the kids that are sitting in this family. And so we can't claim ignorance. And I'm going to push in a little bit and be aggressive. Like, if you are a pastor, you cannot claim ignorance on this topic, period. You cannot. If you guys need to pull me back, just let me know. But I really believe this is an area that we just assume too much and get into trouble far too often, that we need to push in. We need to let our people know that it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to have issues in this area if you're willing to address them and move forward in recovery. And we can't just say, well, you should just go look at Pure Desire and then you can start a group and do all this stuff as if it's outside the church. We need to start being real and being honest about this in the church and no longer believe this myth because it's killing people. Anything to add?

Well said. Okay. A lot of truth there.

Rodney, man, we appreciate it. We are a little bummed we don't get to see you in person, but we still love you and appreciate you being with us.

Yep. I always enjoy it, you guys. And if we can help any church, I think pick up the phone. This is where Pure Desire can be a great resource for you. So many people, men, women, can come and help in this regard. So I just would say as a pastor, we brought Pure Desire and did a conference in our church years ago. It was really helpful. It again, you know, it just reinforced what we were doing in our group work. And so you don't have to navigate this alone. This is an organization that's here to help a lot of levels.

Yeah. And what Rodney's saying, wherever you're at on your journey, church leader or not, Pure Desire is here to help create that roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. And if you haven't subscribed to the podcast. We are always talking about issues like this. We're talking about this area all the time. Share with your friends and family. Write a review, help others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Yeah. Lastly, free people. Free people. Once you've been freed, you pick up that phone, get on your computer, and make a donation. Partner with us, because I'm telling you, this is where you want to put your money. Show us the money, baby. Come on. Because I'm telling you. I'm telling you, it's fruitful, you know, and, man, I'm. I'm. I'm in.

Jump in with us.

Let's help in this arena. That's all I got to say about that.

I'm just pulling the sound bite.

We're just gonna throw it up on the Internet, see what happens.

Grab your. Grab your neighbor. Neighbor's wallet and give like you've always wanted to. That's.

That's right.

All right. That was awesome, Rodney.

Thanks, man.

Take care.

All right.

Good to see you, buddy.