148 - PD-L Program

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 148 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

The coronavirus is coming. The coronavirus is coming.

Too soon.

It might be too late. So by the time this episode comes out, this is the first week of May for you listener. We're recording this a little earlier so.

Well, and that's, you know, we're kind of in the very heart of it as we're recording this. But I'm assuming in faith and in hope that by the time this podcast airs, that intro will play well. It will be funny. But if the world is in even more chaos by then, we may have to re record this one.

Well, and you probably just made all the people who currently have coronavirus very upset. Yeah, very funny. Also, we're going to test and see your prophetic gifting if it's actually there or not. A couple of quick things. Subscribe to the podcast. If you haven't, you can find us on all the major platforms, anywhere that you get your podcasts and please give us a review. It helps people see and find the podcast and it means a lot to us. Also, follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, earedesirepdmi. We also got some video content from these episodes up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Okay, so we sat down over a zoom call, but we sat down with Rocky and Cal. Rocky is a. He's a denominational leader for the Fellowship of Evangelical Churches. See the president.

Yeah, he's the president.

So big kahuna with the fec. And then Cal, who is a lead pastor of Northwoods Community Church in Peoria, Illinois, who is in the fec. And we talked to them specifically about their partnership with us through the Pure Desire Leaders program.

Yeah, I think FEC has been partners now for five years, if not a little longer. And they just identified. We're not going to sit around and wait for these crises to boil over. We're going to do something to help our pastors now. And I think they've really seen a lot come of it. So we wanted to just give them an opportunity to tell their story, share their perspective. And I know whether someone listening is a pastor or leader or just someone in their own recovery, they're going to hear a lot about what does it mean to be honest about our struggles to Find help. And I think everyone's going to get a lot out of this. And if someone is a denominational leader or pastor, we hope it will prompt them to think about how could I also be proactive to help my church or my network of churches find health in this area and not just wait until it becomes a crisis?

Yeah. So lots of really good stuff in here. So enjoy it. Cal, Rocky, thanks for being with us, guys. Appreciate it.

Thank you. It's great to be with you.

My privilege to be here today.

And as listener, you know, we'll intro them a little bit in our introduction. But today we want to talk through our Pure Desire leaders program, which I think, I'll be honest, even. Even for me, I tend to be confused a little bit by this program every once in a while. And so this is one you'll see on our website, but we want to just talk through it. What we offer churches, districts, denomination, to create that safe place for pastors and church leaders to heal. So let's just start with this, Rocky, in your role, many districts and really entire denominations of churches, whether intentionally or unintentionally, avoid the topic of sexuality, sexual brokenness. And so as a denominational leader, why did you choose to tackle this issue?

Well, I grew up as a pastor's kid, and my dad actually served on the district committee that had to help restore people that fell. And so I saw that from, you know, a pastor's family. And I know that having grown up in a very conservative denomination, most churches just didn't talk about sexual things at all. And my role as a pastor later on then was mostly with small groups, men's ministry, those kinds of things. And to me, I said, if I ever had the chance to help our actual credentialed leaders, I would do that. And then when I had the opportunity to sit in this role, that was one of my first priorities. In fact, I think we may have been the guinea pig for Pure Desire to do this.

So did you then get a little bit of pushback? I mean, I can imagine, especially from the top down, getting some of that. What was that like for you in your role?

There was a huge hesitancy by people, you know, because they weren't sure they could trust what happens if I say something and then I lose my job or something like that. And that's really where Cal comes in. He was willing to host our first Pure Desire university setting where we actually got a chance to present that to all of our leaders of all of our churches at one time. So it wasn't like any one person is being singled out or there's. There's suspicion or anything like that. So I credit Cal and others like him that were willing to say, hey, we see this as a big issue too.

Yeah. And we want to get to Cal and his story as a pastor and leading a local church. But, Rocky, when you came around to wanting to do something about addressing sexual brokenness, how did you know about Pure Desire or hear about it? What was your connection to say, hey, let's work with this group versus just trying to create something on your own?

Well, I believe God is sovereign. And so actually, through a partner ministry that FEC was involved with that actually help bring international students to the United States for the summer to help in evangelizing an unreached people group, we made contact. We heard about Pure Desire. And the more I heard about it, the more I was able to investigate, the stronger my commitment was that that's exactly what we needed. I had an opportunity to look at some of Ted's materials and. And they were all right on point. They matched up with us theologically, and it was just a really good match.

Yeah, that's cool. So, Cal, I know you pastor one of the largest churches in the denomination, and it would have been easy to just sit back and like, well, that's. We're going to let the denomination do this. That's great. It's their thing. But, you know, to get directly involved at a local church level and as a senior pastor, that's. That takes a different level of involvement and some courage there. So what was it like from your side? How did you hear about what the denomination was doing and then what were some of your initial responses to getting involved as a pastor?

Yeah, I think. I'm not sure where I heard about Pure Desire. I knew Ted Roberts, but I think it was our missions director. Hal had been somewhere and brought that stuff to us.

Yeah, we sent Hal to a conference first just to check it out, and.

He came back really fired up. And I think, you know, I like to say that a lot of times we as leaders don't know what we don't know, and then it's a matter of knowing what we don't know, because somebody maybe educated us and then let's get in vows. So I know. And then we start to go because of what we know. And I feel like this kind of thing. I had enough brokenness in my own background and some of the things I've done in attempting to bring health to my own journey, as well as knowing Privately that this wasn't just my battle. And then to hear, I think, through the data that Ted had collected, how many church leaders are facing this kind of thing and how many people in our churches are facing it? I've never been one to stick my head in the sand. I'm like, let's figure out what we need to do.

Yeah.

When I found out that there were resources like you guys provided, I was all over that, because this is taking us from what we don't know to now. We know what we don't know, but somebody's out there to help us know. And that's where you guys came in. And so I think it was just part of my own journey, my commitment to not hiding about the kinds of things that I've had to struggle with and then realizing how much of an issue this was for the church that I'm like, wow, we need to get.

So similar question to what we asked Rocky about getting pushback. I know you took this to your staff and your leaders and said, hey, we want to jump in. If I'm remembering correctly, you had a bunch of your staff go with you to one of those early conferences events. Did you get any pushback from your own staff, or what was it about the environment and culture of your staff that made that something that people were willing to do?

I think the fact that we've tried to develop a culture where we talk about brokenness, we don't push it underground. We want our staff knowing I'm brokenness in any sense, that we have Freedom ministries going on, we are doing all kinds of things to help people get healthy. And we talk about the staff leading that charge. And we don't want you to be one who feels like you have to go underground with your stuff, because you need to be in a place where you're dealing with it in an authentic, healthy way, and then you can help lead the charge. And this just became another place where, again, once we know there are resources available, this just fits with our culture. And so I wasn't getting pushback from our culture. I feel like we're maybe out in front of that a little more than what maybe some other churches are who maybe don't feel real comfortable talking about this at this point.

I like what you're saying there, because I think it's a key that we see in a lot of churches that when you bring this up as, like, this one special topic that we need to have this really special plan for, and it almost creates the very kind of fear or anxiety that you're trying to deal with versus if it's brought into a culture of, hey, brokenness is just something we deal with. We all need to grow in Christ. We've all got issues. And this is one of the ways that we're going to help address our brokenness. Then, people, it kind of destigmatizes this particular area to say, well, this is just one of the ways we all need to get help.

You know, I think, Nick, I would have to say to you guys, even you guys have really taught me some language around this. But I was one who kind of raised the issue of who's gonna raise their hand and say, hey, I've got a sexual addiction. I need to come to this, you know, and because I think initially, you know, we were talking about it as just sexual addiction. And when you can put it in a. First of all, pure desire is something we all desire. But when you can talk about the fact that I've heard you recently talk about, you know, part of our fallenness and part of our brokenness, it touched us sexually as well. I think most people will be sitting there going, yeah, I get that. You know what I mean? And it doesn't mean that I've got a certain addiction that I, you know, but I just want to get healthy and be as healthy as I possibly can be. And maybe in my learning, I find out then that, wow, I maybe have some places where I've been stuck here that I didn't really even recognize as.

Being a part of that.

For me, I'm just sitting here listening to you guys, and I'm, you know, I've been raised in the church, been in pastoral ministry, and understand how much humility it takes to admit what I don't know, and then to go find resources and not only find them, but then be like, oh, okay, we are going to implement something.

We're supposed to have the answers, right?

But it's like, yeah, exactly right. Where it's like, I think so many leaders feel like that's what leading is, that they need to take it and then make it their own or create their own thing and then implement it when in reality. And I think our friend Rodney Wright says this all the time, humility is the best way forward. And for me, I'm just encouraged. And that's. If any pastors are listening, that's what I would encourage, is that if you find people who have, as Dr. Ted says, paid the dumb tax, done the work, put in the work and research to figure out how to do something, well, have that sense of humility where it's like, hey, we're all on the same team. And if as long as we're getting people healthy and holy, then that's a win for the whole church.

Absolutely.

I would add, and I think this is especially true because we were a smaller conservative denomination and like we said, people don't talk about those kinds of issues. In fact, there was sort of a, for probably generations, a feel that drugs, alcohol, the sexual problems, that's an inner city issue. Whereas most of our church, our churches are in rural areas, middle America. And we're finding today in society, those are the areas where like especially opioid addiction is actually bigger in rural Ohio and Indiana than it is in a lot of cities. The other thing, and you mentioned our international ministries director that went to the first conference just to check it out, we're finding that one of the biggest benefits of the denomination taking lead on this is that some of our most vulnerable people are people that are living thousands of miles away from anyone that speaks their language. And they know and they love, but they have that little laptop in front of them that connects them to the Internet. And they are so vulnerable, it seems like it's a victimless step that they're taking. Nobody's going to know. I can just do this on the side. But when they get depressed, when they get lonesome, when they're under pressure, when they are tired and worn out, they are so vulnerable. And we found that the online opportunities that Pure Desire offers for them and for the spouses is so important for us to be able so that we now include information about our leadership cooperative that we have with, with Peer Desire right in our or our, our credentialing process. So every single person that goes through our credentialing knows that this is available to them. And we even tell them up front if they voluntarily come forward and ask for help, we're not going to fire them. We're going to walk with them. Through this. Now, if something terrible happens and it comes out and then you have to deal with the aftermath, that's a whole different deal. And our hands are sort of tied in some of those situations. But we try to be proactive, we try to be positive and say we're in this thing together and we're working together and we truly believe. And Nick, I appreciate you so much as you've come on board and I've gotten to know you, that you said, you know, we're here to be a partner to each of our churches, each of our Denominations that are. That are in our network. So thank you, Nick.

I'll just add to that. I was probably 26 or 27. I had spent some time during seminary on the mission field and with one of our most godly leaders and missionaries, and he had no sooner retired and come home and got cancer. And I will never forget his. For whatever reason, he felt safe with me. I don't know, but he called me to his deathbed and he confessed some of his challenges in this area because he didn't want to die with his stuff. Not to where he had gone out, but I'm saying he said, cal, you realize it was on every street corner where we were. This is before the Internet. It was probably magazines or whatever, but I just remember thinking, holy cow, if this godly guy was struggling with that, not only what do we need to do to make it safer so that we can heal sooner rather than later, but how many others might be struggling with the same thing as well? I just almost thank God for that experience. But at the same time, it was painful for me to know that he had suffered with that.

So let's talk about it a little bit from just the standpoint of the fec. What benefits have you seen from being a part of the Pure Desire Leaders program? You talk about the credentialing process and people being aware of it, but what benefits do you see? Like, think of someone who's listening to this, who maybe is a denominational leader or is a pastor, and they want to know a little bit more about it. So what benefits have you guys seen with the fecal being a part of this program?

Well, one, I would say we've had no negative experiences such that, you know, something blew up in our face because of this.

We were.

We've been able to get ahead of a lot of situations. We've also been able to provide resources to churches, especially smaller churches, that don't have a lot of others, other opportunities in their communities to actually use some of the materials that you produce. And a third thing that's even affected, in our national office, we have spouses of people that have struggled, that are able to be in an online support group to just understand what their role is in helping their spouse. And that's a huge thing because you don't want to put a person in a position they shouldn't be in. I mean, the wife shouldn't be the primary accountability person for a guy that's struggling. You know, she needs to be the wife, you know, in that situation and needs help herself. You know exactly. And to walk through what do you do for the kids that are. That realize what. What dad's going through. And usually it's dad, we're saying, you know, in this situation, but so that's been a huge benefit. The other is, is that we don't have to just shrug our shoulders and say, I don't know, go out and look for help. We can say we actually have a place you can go. It's confidential. You've got a number you can call, you know, any time of the day or night to get some help. And then we can also walk through the process and be a piece of the healing as the counselor and the situation develops. And also, I think just having it based on good solid science and medical facts, the idea that a guy's gonna be. Be cured in three weeks, you know, because that's most. You know, even if they go and check themselves in someplace, they get about 27 days. We know it's probably going to be a year or a year and a half until they've been able to reprogram some of their ways of thinking and dealing with stuff. And that most people think that the problem is a sexual problem, and almost always it's some other hurt. It's just the way they're medicating that problem. And so some will do it with alcohol, some will do it with drugs, some will do it with pornography or actually acting out illicitly in some other way. And, you know, to be able to have that, not to say in our pocket, but to have a partner that we can send them to, that we can walk them. Them through this process together and say, we'll be here with you in this. That's been very helpful. How about for you, Cal, at a.

Local church level, what have you seen.

For your staff or for your church?

It's just, to me, it's a great thing to have a. You guys use the language. Lower shame, you know, and up the safety factor. And we all know anybody who struggled with this, it's the shame factor that keeps people hiding. What are people going to think if they know, where do I go with this? Who do I talk to? And for us to be able to say to the staff, listen, you are not going to get in trouble. We have a designated staff person that they can go to to get connected to you guys. It doesn't have to be something that you have to feel that the entire staff is going to know. You're going to be in a place where it's safe to. For you to get the help that you need, take advantage of it. The only time you'll get in trouble on this staff is when we were providing the resources and you weren't taking advantage of it. And then something blew up. So we have just tried to say that as well around here, we are lowering the shame, upping the safety, and this gives us a vehicle for them to get well through having that access to you guys.

Yeah.

So let's press into that a little more because you guys have both mentioned it a bit. But there is that reality for I think most pastors that we've just grown up in an environment that says if you struggle in this area in particular, you're disqualified, you'll get fired, you'll be removed. And so that fear can just keep people from really stepping forward. And like I said, you mentioned a few. But what steps have you taken to continue to communicate that within your denomination where leaders really know you mean it when you're, when you say we're here to help and not just to, you know, remove you if you struggle?

Well, like I said, whenever we have an all leader gathering, that's a piece of our agenda at our national conference every year, we try to have a table, a display from pure desire. So then that gives us an opportunity to talk about it and actually have some testimonials. That's really hard in front of peers. And so we try to talk a little more in generalities, but we can speak of specific people. We have someone on our team or something like that that it was that came forward. We were able to do X, Y and Z. And then we have to reiterate it in our credentialing process that, yes, if something happens and there's a huge moral failure, you know, yes, that's going to cost you your job. But if you start seeing yourself being pulled in a direction. In fact, the last question of every single credentialing interview is, is there anything either currently or in your past that, if it were known, would become an embarrassment to you or the church that we can help you deal with or walk through or hold you accountable? So we make that a safe place for them to actually do that rather than just say, oh, yes, you can trust us. They want to know that there's people there with a face that they can really just reach out to.

It's great language too, that idea of is there anything you'd be embarrassed about, not that we would have problems with or issues with, it's really considering them and where they stand. That's great language.

Well, or the truth we've talked about on the podcast, that if a denomination or district says, are you currently struggling with pornography? 99% of us that have a struggle are still going to say no. Because it's like, well, that was last month and that was the last time. So, no. Yeah, right.

It's always five years ago.

Yeah, sure, right, exactly.

When I was in college or in.

Bible school, I used to listen. It's invaluable to have the partnership, because most churches, even if you had the knowledge, aren't set up to deal with this in the way that you guys are. And so to have that partnership, that just kind of allows us to stay on the front lines with the stuff that we're doing. And if this is a place where somebody needs to seek healing for a while, the partnership is invaluable to me. And then to have, you know, you guys recently come through again and ramp this up with our small groups to get in a place where, let's keep this on the front line. Keep it on the front line, lower shame, heighten the safety. So that we're just continually ministering and creating the same kind of safety for our people is invaluable.

And one other thing, especially in smaller towns, there's no place to go get help because everybody knows what everybody's doing. And so this is a way, especially through the online piece, and then if we're a partner, we can actually help them get help in another town or another city that isn't right there. But they still would have regular touches with trained counselors that know what they're talking about, know what steps to take, and can hold people accountable.

And even denominationally, it's helped with the funding of whatever might counseling they might need. So that's another benefit.

So, Cal, from like a local level, what does it look like to continue? Like, what. What are you doing practically to try to still create that environment or that culture, that this is a safe place to admit you have problems and issues, and that we also have a place for you to heal without losing that job, without losing your ministry.

Well, we continue to say that to our staff, but you're having recently been here again, we talked about. We need to just make this more of a consistent message so that things that are getting talked about from up front and that we have people championing this at both the men's level and the women's level, and it gets the airtime up front so that it stays right in the front window of things we're doing as a church. And Then we're consistently talking about it just as staff. Guys, you know, I just want to say it again. You don't have to go underground with your stuff. We've had a very broken situation with a family that has moved away from here. Is not in this regard. But it makes me wonder, were you guys hiding things when you were here? I don't get your. You know, what. Not only what's happened, but some of what we know has kind of been in the, you know, shoved underground. Has created now a real disaster situation for them. They're not on staff with us anymore, but I feel like it's a conversation I want to have now and say, why were we not talking about this kind of stuff?

You know, you, Nick. I was there at Northwoods for that week long, really, really cold trip. And Cal, I loved seeing our friend Rodney Wright preach that weekend. Who's on staff here? Pure desire. I remember after the first service, you got up and you're like, look, this is something we are addressing in our church. And you even were like, it doesn't matter who leads group. I'll lead it. I'll do whatever it takes. Like, I'm gonna do this. Which you know that. I mean, maybe. Maybe you are. Maybe, you know, you don't have to. Maybe there'll be other people. But still, that idea of this is something we're gonna talk about from the front. And your lead person, the person who you see most often from this stage is not going to tiptoe around this or try to hurdle this topic. We're walking in it and through it. And I just. I love that because it lets people know that it doesn't matter what issue it is that my pastor is not the varsity player on the team. Like, he's the only one that's on varsity and I'm on jv and I keep coming back to that language in my own story that everyone's on varsity, everyone's got brokenness, everyone. You know, Jesus doesn't have a JV team in the kingdom. Like, we're all on the same team. And so that idea of I'm your teammate, I'm walking in this, I will be a part of this. I just feel like was super powerful and I would.

We've always. We've always been open about this. I'm just saying that partnership with you guys has given us a whole lot more. We just feel more equipped not only as a church, but now to have a place to send people. I'm going. I've talked about this, But I'm saying, 25 years ago, how would I have addressed this? Well, maybe go see a counselor or maybe go over here.

You know what I mean?

And we weren't equipped to address it. And now I feel like with our partnership, we are.

Yeah, well, that's what I love about what we're trying to do with the pure desire leaders partnership is create that environment where it's both the leader themselves can get help, but also equipping the church then to deal with it as a culture. Because if you only do one or the other, you're actually creating a problem that if you only help the leaders but don't help them take it to their church, that's only going to accomplish so much. But if you only help the church, you're not the leader, then you push the leaders further under the. And that's not going to help either.

Right.

It's a both and yeah. One of the things that maybe some listeners are struggling with, particularly if they have a leadership role or have been a part of overseeing a district or a church or denomination, they may feel like, well, wait a minute, we have to have standards. If a man or woman is called to preach. If they're called into ministry, they have to have integrity. So if they're not able to avoid pornography, should they even be a pastor? And so talk a little bit, maybe start with you, Rocky, to that tension between. We do call our leaders to moral excellence. We do want them to be equipped and trained as we put them into that role. But at the same time, they're still human beings that may have issues they need to face and deal with. So as you lead a denomination and think of calling people into ministry, how do we handle that tension between, yes, as leaders, we're called to moral excellence, but that doesn't mean we're perfect and we might still need help. So speak to that tension a little bit.

Right. It's always a process and again, it depends on how far, how much involvement there is or something when the information first comes out. It doesn't mean that the person is necessarily going to stay in the pulpit every Sunday, but they're not going to get fired. We're going to walk with them. So they may need to take a sabbatical, they may need to walk through sometime. So restoration is always preferable to just punishment in my mind. And I believe that God's in the business of restoring lives and I don't think there's any sin any bigger for him to deal with than any other sin. And so we try to approach it that way. Obviously it's much harder if you have a solo pastorate in a smaller church in a smaller town. But even there, there are ways to work alongside them, with them, with accountability, bring someone in from the denominational level to be a mentor and encourage her, maybe even fill the pulpit for a time. And all of our men that are in the pulpit understand they're in a fraternity together. And their willingness to come in and stand in the gap for each other has what's made this work for us.

Yes. How do you, I'm curious maybe how you would work with someone from even a theological perspective, because I, I do feel in a lot of churches and maybe I could call it old school way of thinking that the pastor is the morally upright pillar of our community. And for them to feel like, well, wait, and yet they struggle with pornography. How could that even. To hear what I'm asking, like there's that theological stance that someone actually needs to maybe be helped in how they view a leader or what does it mean to be a pastor? So how do you work with someone that maybe has that old school theology of, no, the pastor needs to be the morally upright pillar of the community or else he shouldn't even be in the pastor.

Well, that is the role that I get to have in this situation. As simple a thing as if, you know, the church isn't treating your wife well, you can't get up in the pulpit and say, you know, you're not being fair to my wife, because it sounds way too self serving. But I can get up and say, you know, how are you treating your pastor, your pastor's family, you know, are you holding your pastor's wife to a different standard, Your pastor's kids to a different standard? Because I've been there, because I've been a pastor, I've been a pastor's kid. I mean, my dad's still alive. He just turned 96 two weeks ago and he still teaches, he still leads a Bible study. You know, I mean, I know what that's like. I know what it's like to be in that home and be in the fishbowl. And so that's where I can speak to it. We have denominational elders that can speak to it and they're willing to help push that agenda. And so that's just a responsibility that we have.

I think we were on a podcast the other day and we were talking about this and I think with some of what I've experienced, and I mean, I'm 32, so take it for what it's worth. But I've been in the church my entire life that pastors, whether intentionally or unintentionally, they actually are part of perpetuating that culture, that they are the one who's the pillar because of their inability or unwillingness to share at least a version of their brokenness, to either be truly in community and have people know you, or to share personal stories about how they have felt failed in life, whether it's parenting or marriage or finance or whatever it may be. I know there's a tension there, too. You don't just want to get up and bleed all over the sheep, but at the same time, if you're not sharing anything and you basically are just high and tight every week, of course people are going to think that you are the moral high ground, so to speak.

I had a pastor, I had a great pastor, but I remember he shared something vulnerable one time, and somebody came to him and said, pastor, don't you ever do that again, because I put you up there on a pedestal and I want you on that pedestal. And I'm going, really, really Listen, it is up to pastors. I really feel like we should. We take the lead in our own vulnerability and our own humility. It's like you say, I have to be careful what I share and with whom. But that's still different than saying, wait a minute, God didn't call any perfect people into ministry. And so we are always having to grow in front of our people. I hope they've seen a difference in me from the time I'm now, you know, when I was 31 to where I'm 61, and I've just had to be honest in the struggles in the areas that I'm growing. And I'm going, you set a culture for whether people feel like they can deal with their stuff or whether they can't. I'm part of my ministry, I say, and I'm on a rampage with this in the church that hundreds of thousands of evangelical believers every week sit in church and can say they know they're forgiven and on their way to heaven, they're forgiven, but they're not free. And freedom is a whole different thing than forgiveness. Yes, I'm free from the consequences of my sin, but am I still in bondage to the power of that sin? And it is the pastors who can say, hey, I know what it is to struggle with that, but here's how Jesus is helping me with that. They have always helped me a lot more than the person that wags their finger and says, you people need to get better and need to be holy. And I'm going, well, help me know how you got there, you know. Yeah.

And that's why it's very hard for a lay person to hold the pastor, the senior pastor, especially accountable. So that's why from my role from the office to the senior pastors, we did it at a senior pastor summit. And we, in a sense, we gave them all permission to be those guys. And, you know, from our position, then they can turn around and hand that off to their congregation and to their staff and that we will hold each other up. Not just accountable, but we'll hold each other up.

Yeah. Well, I think we have to change the paradigm of what spiritual maturity is. That spiritual maturity isn't being free of issues, but it's having the wisdom to know where you need help and the humility to ask. And I think if pastors saw that as a sign of, you know, a spiritual maturity, they could be more willing to talk about it, say, yeah, I've struggled with depression and here's how I'm getting help and asking for help. Because that communicates to people that maturity isn't perfection. Maturity is growth and continue to trust Christ, to work in our lives.

And you guys know my story, too. Part of why I'm on the rampage is because of the brokenness that, that I only understood in my family after my mom died. And then I find out that I'm not one of 10, I'm one of 11. I go home to talk to dad about, well, where is this other one? What happened? I always knew there was brokenness here in the family, but we couldn't talk about it. We didn't. We didn't ever, ever. We were, we were ashamed of our sexualities. When I said I just felt like there's a sexual shame on this family, we can't talk about it. We don't pray with each other, then we go to church. We look like the perfect family. We're like anybody else. And we were all saved at a very early age. And yet now here I am in my 50s, and I'm learning about the brokenness that was shoved under cover in my family. And I really, I don't blame anybody. I just think that the church didn't have tools and knowing how to deal with it. So what was my mom to do? And that's why I'm saying I'm grateful that you guys have elevated the conversation and are providing resources. And I'm going, man, give us more pure desires. Across the country.

Yes. And if you'd like to give to pure desire. So, guys, let's wrap up the episode, really. And I mean, this could be for anybody. This, you know, specifically to someone who is a denominational leader or a local pastor. This could be someone who is in the church, maybe has a heart to pastor, but isn't currently in that ministry yet, or to someone that goes to church just around this idea of this program, this partnership. What encouragement would you give people who are listening today?

We're all humans first. We're not a pastor. We're not a leader. We're a human. And all of Christianity, I believe, is a relationship. It's a relationship between us and Jesus Christ. And so if we realize we're all equal at that level, we all have different responsibilities, we all have different pools of influence, those kinds of things. But if we can share that we're all in this thing together. We're all equal in front of God. I mean, when we see our heroes of the faith, like David and see some of the stuff he did, we go, you know, we're no better than that. It's how we handle it. As Cal said, it's how we respond when it's. When it's brought to our attention or when we realize we have an issue. And so we have to be able to do that together. One of the things that. And this is, way back before I was in ministry, one of the reasons I didn't ever want to be a pastor, because I truly believe that the church was one of the few places where we shoot our wounded and we shouldn't. We need to be there to help bind up the brokenhearted and to build them up and to get them healthy. And if we're all honest, we all are, that. Some of us hide it better. Some of us, there's, like, more acceptable weaknesses to have than others. Why that is, I don't know. It's because someone else has made that decision, because it isn't the one that they're bearing at the time, I suppose. But, yeah, that. That I would say is probably my motivation, because, you know, I've got nothing to lose. You know, I'm old. I'm only going to be in this role for. For a little while longer. And I want to leave this place better. I want to leave FEC a stronger, better place. I want every one of our churches to be a place where. Because that shows up in our community. You know, we can. We can try to project that we're the perfect leader, but our communities are pretty smart. And they know. In fact, they will point out more than even people in our congregations, if a word slips out of someone's mouth or an act of anger at a basketball game or something like that, they all take note of that. So if we just admit that we're weak human beings, but we have a resource in Jesus Christ, and we have resources within the church to help people get healthy and get restored and to be strong, you know, that's a very, very attractive thing to our communities because people are looking for answers.

And I just. I have a pain in my heart for pastors who feel like they have to remain in hiding. There's no. There's no greater pain than carrying around sexual shame and feeling like I'm stuck and I don't know what to do with it. And I go, I know you love Jesus. You do. This is not about whether you love him or not. This is about what you're gonna do with what it is you're hiding. And, Nick, this is how I say it, because you're an absolute trophy of this, that the place of our greatest woundedness can become the source of our greatest ministry. If we'll let God heal us. But then I always say, but he can't heal what we won't reveal, so we want to stay underground, we're never gonna heal. But if we have safe places to come out, then he can heal us. And guess what? Now you don't live in the shame of your past anymore. You've turned it into ministry to other people. I go, that's exactly what I want to see. Not only for pastors, but how many people in our churches is God waiting to heal so that that very place of woundedness can become their source of ministry to other people?

Amen. You know, we don't have to talk very much when we interview two other pastors, so.

Great.

I know you guys. I could tell you right now, I feel motivated to be an FEC pastor. That would be great. The culture.

You guys have a couple of opportunities.

I'm gonna have to. Yeah, that's right. Oh, my gosh. There's some trauma with Indiana for you and I. But look, guys. Cal, Rocky, your willingness to be with us means a lot, but also even more so, your willingness to press into this issue to create. Do active steps to create a healthy and safe place for leaders to address the brokenness in their lives, and not only do that, but take that and then empower their people, do the same thing. It's just amazing, guys. So we just appreciate you and what you do.

Our privilege, man. We're grateful for you guys.

Yeah. Thank you for being a partner with us. We're in this thing together. Yep.

So wherever you're at on your journey, whether you're a pastor, a denominational leader, or anyone just wanting to find freedom from this behavior, pure desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, you can go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. Share it with your friends and family, write a review, help others find the podcast, and lastly, never stop being healthy.