150 - Betrayed Spouse & Legal Issues

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 150. We've made it to 150 of the Pure Desire podcast here. Joining me, as you can already hear, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

To be or not to be, that is the question. Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous. Or take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them. To die, to sleep, no more.

Hamlet, Shakespeare.

Yes, very good. Excellent work.

I would have been more impressed if I didn't see the notes that you've written some of it down.

I only knew the first three lines. Or take arms against a sea of troubles.

There you go.

I always forget that one.

I mean, I like to read a lot, but Shakespeare is not someone I'm like, man, I'm so pumped to just sit down and read old English and.

Yeah, do all that. It makes your brain hurt.

The closest version, I think, is the new King James version of the Bible.

Exactly.

Which I also don't read that version. Okay, so we'll maybe get into a little bit of your intro here in a minute, but we did a deep dive today into a really difficult reality of sexual addiction. We get to hear from Jen Howey on it. But a couple. Couple quick things. If you subscribe to the podcast, that would mean a lot to us. Also, make sure that you're getting the new episodes as they come out each week. We're on all the major platforms and if you give us a review, it helps other people see the podcast and also follow us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and instagramuredesirepdmi. And if you like to consume video content, we've got clips of these episodes up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. So we sat down with Jen, who is our executive assistant and a very valuable member of our team. We love having her here. And we really jumped into her story of being the betrayed spouse and then the story of really her husband and the legal issues that were involved in all of that.

Yeah, and kind of like my podcast intro there. My wife and I went to a high school play last weekend that was the complete works of William Shakespeare, abridged. And it's a very lighthearted, satirical, even crass kind of compilation of his works. And I just thought about that's kind of what in this podcast, for some people, they may wrestle with like oh, that, you know, this is very touchy, sacred ground. Like, you shouldn't even go there. And I think some people probably felt that when they saw the Shakespeare play because they thought it was going to be Shakespeare. Like, they were probably offended by.

They called him Bill Shakespeare rather than.

Yeah.

And there's a lot of, like I said, pretty crass humor in it. But anyway, I think there's just the truth that when something is heavy and difficult, our tendencies to avoid it, but it actually leaves it heavy and difficult and can get people really stuck in something that there is hope and there is a pathway through, but we've got to be able to talk about it. And so I think that Jen telling her story, I mean, obviously she's at a point and listeners will hear this. You know, she's 15 years down the road, and so she's not in the middle of the emotion and the turmoil anymore. But it also gives perspective to look back and say, I've been there and I remember it and here's what I've learned. And so we don't in any way mean to at any point make light or act like, oh, this is no big deal. But it's rather the opposite because we see how serious it can be, and we hope we can provide some kind of very practical, just normal thoughts and guidance of how to walk through something like this.

I think, too, it's important to say that if your story does not involve legal stuff or you're not a betrayed spouse, this episode still has value because there are probably people in your life who have or might experience things like this or in your church community. And so understanding that this can also be an educational piece in your toolkit could be really big.

Yeah. And I think for every listener, it'll help us think through how do I deal with the mess, see painful stuff that I'd rather just avoid or act like wasn't there, because I think that would have been Jen's temptation. Like, I'm just going to bury that part of my story and never talk about it again. And the fact that it's a major part of her testimony now, it's because she faced it. So all of us, all of us will have those parts of our story that we'd rather bury. But I think if we allow God and others to help us look at them, there's incredible fruit that comes of it.

And she is great and super honest. So I think you guys are really going to get a lot out of the episode. So here it is. Jan, thanks for being with us. Again today.

Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

I feel like you've had you on quite a bit recently.

Oh, it's been a lot of fun.

Yeah.

Is this her first time, though, without Dan?

It is.

Is it?

Because it'll probably be a lot better then get rid of the dead weight.

Oh, my God.

Wait, don't tell him I said that.

Shots fired. Okay. Well, I'm glad that we're light hearted now because we're doing a pretty deep dive into your story, which there is a lot, as you were just even saying before the show. But we want to dive into your first marriage, understand the experience you had. There were some legal issues that were at play in this realm of sexual addiction. And so we want to really come alongside any spouse, whether it's male or female, that has a situation where their spouse is involved in sexual addiction or some sort of sexual brokenness. And there are legal ramifications for it. And as you said, even being on staff, the limited time that you have been, there's a lot of people who have this experience. And so we want to kind of dive into it, even though it's going to be heavy. But even as you reminded us before the episode started, it's okay to also have this be conversational and to really approach this with. With hope, not just despair. So let's just dive right in and give us a little bit of background on really what took place in your first marriage.

Okay. I feel like this whole thing has been 15 years in the making. So my palms are sweaty and I'm feeling super warm. And it's funny because I have been telling the story for 15 years and for some reason today, I just feel like that God's going to do something bigger with it. And after being employed here, I've seen that this is an issue that reaches far and wide. So thanks for letting me tell this story. And my hope is that. That it'll bring some hope and healing to others. So just a little bit of background. I met my first husband when I was in eighth grade. He lived next door and I was looking out the window and he was moving in. And I said, ah, that's the boy I'm gonna marry. And I just knew. I just knew. Eighth grade. Right.

So prophetic.

I know. And so discerning. Right. So anyway, so we, we dated through high school. He was a football star and a track star and I was a cheerle. Just your typical sort of movie scenario.

The All American Story.

Yeah. And you had those breakups off and on, you know, through high school. And When I was 19, we were in one of our broke up times and I met this guy and this guy had drugged my drink. And when he did, um, he, he essentially date raped me. I woke, I woke up in the middle of it taking place. I wasn't able to move my limbs, but I was fully aware of what was taking place. But I couldn't speak, I couldn't move. And that experience made it so that I never wanted to date. I'm like, okay, I will never date. I want to be with someone who I know their background. Because if I were to go into the dating world, there'd be no way that I'd know what people were made of. So my assumption was that what I wanted was safe and predictable. And my assumption was, is that this boy that I had gone to high school with and had been with, you know, for all these years would be that safe and predictable person. And so I married my high school sweetheart and I was just short of, just about 20 years old when that took place. And we had two boys and he was a great dad. And it really, people, you know, say don't get married young. And. But we were just proven them wrong. And we were happy to be doing that because we were, we were just nailing this whole marriage thing was going so, so well. But about five years into the marriage, he had confessed that he had had an affair with the babysitter. And, and so obviously that was really hard. And there are many details that went into that. But fast forward, I'm going to try to not say fast forward a bunch in this. You can just, you know. Sure, slap me.

Yeah, we get that. There's a lot of details.

Let me jump in really quick. Did you see signs of that?

Absolutely not.

Okay.

Okay.

So huge shock.

Yeah, yeah.

Hindsight is 20 20, but at the time I didn't. My trust was so fully intact that it just. That would never happen. Not to him. Maybe to somebody else, but not him.

Sure.

And certainly not to us. So we moved. We, we were in California at the time. And then we moved to Oregon. And then about two years into living in Oregon, we discovered. I didn't discover, actually my younger son discovered a pornography, asked what does daddy do in front of the computer? And I, my jaw just dropped open because at this time it was dial up days. So the whole online pornography thing, super different.

Super different, you know, took a high commitment level.

It really did.

Because it did a lot of time.

Yeah, yeah.

Right. Because you, yeah. So the, you had to, you're either on the phone or on the computer. In those days, you couldn't be. It was one of the other. So anyway, so that was when I first discovered, okay, there's a. We have a sexual issue here. Before, you know, I wasn't really sure what was going on, but now there's a sexual problem. And I would try to bring it up and talk about it, and he would say that I was throwing it in his face and I wasn't being forgiving. And I wanted to be a good, forgiving Christian wife. I wanted to prove to people that our marriage was going to make it. And so I just really did what I thought a good Christian wife would do, and I just swept it under the rug, you know, that would be supporting him and why I didn't want to out him and in those kinds of things. Well, he was really well loved and respected in our community and in our church, in our family. He was. He was the guy that I would have friends come up to me and say, hey, I just. I cannot wait till when my daughter gets married. I want her to marry someone just like your husband. I mean, super well respected.

Yeah. Wow.

And he was a really great dad. Super involved and just a great, great dad. So three years later, I'm not gonna say fast forward. I just did. Okay. Three years later, on July 10th of 2005, they were getting ready to take a trip to California, and two cop cars pulled up and an un. Like an unidentified car pulled up, and police walk down into the driveway and they. I'm assuming they're looking for somebody, some bad guy that's maybe in the neighborhood and didn't realize that bad guy would actually end up being my spouse. Because they asked for him by name. And I'm like, well, that's really weird. They asked for my husband by name. That's weird. And so they take him around the corner and have a conversation with them. Meanwhile, this. This other cop is standing by me and this other woman, I don't know what her role is at this time is standing by me and comes back around the corner and he says, I, I'm gonna. I have some questions I need to answer for them. I'm like, what's going on? And he can't really say anything. And so he. The cop takes him down the street and around the corner. What. What I didn't know at the time was he was actually arresting him around the corner so that my kids didn't see their father being arrested, which was so kind because my boys were 7 and 10 at the time. And so they leave. And then this other woman and this cop is standing there and the boys run up to the car, they're like, where's daddy going? And I said, he's, he's going with the police to answer some questions. And my older son at the time, a 10 year old, like, looks at his little brother and says, oh, dad's gonna help the cops. He's gonna help the bad guys, dad. Awesome. And they take off running and I'm like, you know, my heart's just racing because I'm. This isn't really what's taking place here. So I asked what's going on? And the woman says, there's been allegations of sexual abuse. And, and I'm thinking back to maybe the gal that he kind of the babysitter that he had had an affair with and that wasn't the case. He had been sexually abusing minors. And, and none of us obviously knew that. And so the woman standing there was actually from cps and she says, now Jennifer, you. You need to go get your boys and you need to tell them to, to come with me. And, and the cop standing there and I have this realization that if I don't listen to her, that guy's there for me and that I'll be arrested if I don't, if I don't comply. And of course I start to cry and freak out. She says, calm down, calm down, calm down. If you're not calm, your boys aren't going to be calm. They need to know that you're okay. You need to go get them and tell them to come with us. So I go into the house, grab the boys, tell them to go with the lady. They get in the car, the cop drives away, lady drives away with my kids. And I'm standing in my driveway without a husband and without my children. And in that moment I realize, holy smokes. Everything has changed. And I don't know what it is. I don't know the details of anything at this point. I just know that everything has changed in my entire life. So I call my friend immediately and like, I don't know what to do. And what do I do? What do I do? She lives in Salem and we lived in Bend at the time. And so she was a couple hours away and she's like, don't think, don't think. Just clean. Just, just, just, just go clean. Like go, go into the bathroom.

Cover it with something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, just clean. I'm on my way. I'm getting in my car. I'm Pulling my stuff together. Just, just start cleaning. Don't think, don't overanalyze. Just clean, clean, clean, clean, clean. So that was her advice, which I thought was actually excellent because it really gave me something to do because I.

Was shaking and collapsing on yourself.

Right. What do you do with that in those moments? So it was actually quite, quite brilliant of her to do that. So of course there's several details that are involved in part of that story, but those were the moments that led me to just telling this story in general and then what's to come. And essentially what it came down to was he had been abusing a couple of, a couple of children. He had been ended up being sentenced to 20 years in prison. And we'll walk through this a little bit through the podcast, but it was very, very, very public. There wasn't a lot going on in Bend at the time. So we were top of the news for two months. But then from July to November to when he was sentenced, there was just that follow up with the news and there was, it was just so very, very public. So walking with our kids through that and walking with our community through that was a huge part of, of the story.

So, yeah, so, I mean, this is traumatic as your life changes on that day. And I think as any parent, their mind goes to, well, how do I help my kids through this season also? So tell us a little bit about that. I mean, obviously your boys saw their dad being taken away, but that's only part one of actually eventually hearing about what he had done or why he's going to prison. And so just tell us a little bit about how you processed that with your boys and did any of his. I'm sure the question listeners are thinking through is like, boy, if their dad was sent to prison for abusing minors, did any of those behaviors extend into his own family? Or how do you even find. I mean, because I'm thinking as a dad, like, do you even want to know that? But yet you have to know, like, did he do things inappropriate to our kids? So process that side with your kids.

That's the first question people ask me. And I always found it to be nervy when people would say, well, did he do it to your kids? Well, it doesn't matter because he did it to somebody's kids, even if they weren't mine. But, but I understand the curiosity. There was so much curiosity behind that. So. So yeah, my boys, they knew because they had seen him leave, but they didn't. They thought he was helping the Police.

Right, right.

And so they obviously had been taken by cps. CPS had interviewed them. And so they knew a lot of the content because of the drawings they had to do, and they were separated and they were brought together, and then the process of going through that. So by the time. By the time I finally got my kids back, which was by the end of the day, by the way, felt like a week. But by the time I got them back, they had a little bit of background. And by the time the investigator had investigated me, he had told me, okay, you know, this is. This is going to be on the news. And little did I know that you can actually request for it to be held for 24 hours before it hits the news. So I requested that, and that gave me 24 hours to sit down with the boys. And essentially I just. I remember that moment just cuddled up on a chair, one on each arm, and just explained that Daddy. Daddy wasn't coming home. He had done some things to some children that were bad, and now he has to have the consequences of that. And so he's not going to be coming home. And at 7 and 10, you can't give too much context. And at this point, I didn't even fully know. I knew that he had admitted to everything and then some, and it hadn't happened to my children. And the polygraph confirmed that, you know, he hadn't done anything to my kids. And of course, my kids confirmed that they hadn't. He hadn't done anything to them. But, yes, that did go through my head. And so just processing with them in little minute amounts, keeping the TV off, because it was all over the news, but because it was a smaller town, you know, 15 years ago, it was so public, and they drug our church through the mud, and they tried to take the Jesus factor and say that, you know, just twist Christianity in the process of it all. So walking with them wasn't just walking with them through losing their dad, but through the questions that they would get and protecting them in the process. So we. We had a spokesperson ready to go on our behalf, because you get phone calls saying, you know, right, can we have an interview, please? So protecting them through that was a process through. You know, they're now in their 20s, so as they continued to learn more and more and more, there were different levels of processing that my kids had to go through. Initially, it was just the loss of a father.

Right.

And then, of course, there's a lot of trauma that goes with that, but it's like a.

It felt it feels like there's like this staggered effect of it though, as you learn more, it's just more trauma and more trauma.

And even now, even now that they're in their 20s, that one of my sons is married and now he's processing, I'm going to be a dad someday. And, and yeah, so there's just different, like you said, there's a staggered processing that takes place for them.

Well, and I appreciate the way you're sharing that because I think for so many listeners, whether or not this is their story, probably in their story they did have maybe a divorce or a separation or even when one of the spouses got exposed in some behavior and they maybe slept in different rooms or one of them left the home for a few days and, and that question of like, how do we talk with our kids? I think sometimes we feel like, well, you just got to rip the band aid off and tell them everything all at once. And then it's like we move on. And there's kind of some of that in our Christian subculture. Like you just deal with it and then you, you know, Christ forgives and we forgive and we move on. But I think the reality is as kids grow, they're ready to hear different things. And so early on, you know, I didn't tell my 5 year old son, well, you know, daddy's been looking at pornography online and mom's really heard and you know, at a five year old level I could just say dad's made some bad choices and mom's really angry. But you know, we're working on it and, and, and then as he ages, I can, as he asks questions as our kids are ready. And I think that's what you're saying is when it was appropriate or when something new came up. As a parent, just being ready to be there for your kids and listen and know where they're at and not act like, oh, we don't talk about that anymore, but just say this is our reality and we're going to keep facing it and learning from it and growing and that, that, whether that's again, whether that's someone's story is like yours are very different. They've probably faced some of that same process and hopefully that's an encouragement to know it's okay to not fix it all at once.

Yeah.

And to kind of let it be a growing process.

Yeah.

Oh, you said it so much better than I did.

No, I just made an observation about what you said.

Yeah. Summarizing it.

But, but you, but you're so Right. And it's important to not try to fix it all at one time.

Yeah.

It's important to understand that this, that this is a continual process. It's funny, I just remembered when I said, daddy did something bad, my son's first response was, he didn't drink and drive, did he? Mom, he's 10. He didn't drink and drive. I'm like, no, it was a little bit.

That's like, as a 10 year old, that's what they know is totally right. That's what they've been taught.

Right.

And their biggest concern at that moment was if we were going to get a divorce. And how do I explain to you your dad's going to prison for 20 years? Like, yeah, divorce is the least of your concerns right now. But that was their very first concern was if we were going to be divorced.

Yeah.

Well.

And they probably have had friends that walk through that. And so I think for kids, that is a question they're asking is like, what's going to happen to mommy and daddy and their relationship? And yeah, I think it's natural that that question comes up.

Sure.

So, I mean, you guys are obviously, we know and have seen historically how the public responds to stuff like this and even more so when it's something from a follower of Jesus who's in a local church. But how did you see your church, your family, your friends, how did they respond when all this came out?

My friends were amazing.

Wow.

I just really have a hard time finding words for how amazing my friends were. We had cards and meals and visits. And it was interesting because you'll have people show up that you never expected. And then people who you truly expected to be there, they're like out of sight. So. And that's okay because everyone's processing and something that big. Yeah. Or even smaller things. People have. Did they. They have to process and so they process different.

It's hard to be aware of that though, in the moment. Like, if you have friends who are close and they're not there, you're not thinking, oh, they're just processing. And like you're thinking, you're right. Where the expletive are you to get into my life. Get over here.

But in the meantime, the people that did stand up and they drove from great distances were so comforting. I was so moved by like my husband's coworker and his wife that came over and stepped in. I'm like, where did you come out of what you. You're amazing friends. Wow. This is, this is really, really good. So the, my friends took it as well as they could. They were all grieving the loss of a lot of things. There were several things. Family was really mostly supportive. My sister came, she paid my mortgage for me because suddenly I had no income because I worked a part time job. But he was mostly the sole provider, and so I had no way to make it. And so my sister paid my mortgage for me. So if, you know, if you've got financial resources, that's an amazing thing to do for someone. Some people took the news harder and they processed in less healthy ways and did a lot of projecting onto me and a lot of blaming, blaming me. But a majority of people didn't necessarily take that route. The media, like I said, took the church through the mud.

Yeah.

Like I said, they left messages and asked for interviews. And people in general were just kind of scared because now this is on the news, it's a little sensationalized. So our church actually held a public forum to discuss what had taken place. And people came, the community came to ask questions. Was this my kid? How do I know that my kid wasn't affected? And so, so the public was involved a little bit more that way. And then you, the, you'd get the looks, you know, because we were small enough of a community that you, you know, people knew who you were. So for the most part, I think most people handled it pretty well. And we'll talk a little bit more about how people supported. And that to me speaks more to what an amazing community I had been a part of. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, and I think that's what we want to kind of head into, because whether or not this is our story, it's likely in the world we live in that someone, you know, whether it be friend or family or at your church, is going to go through something really messy. And whether legal or not, I think all of us can feel like I don't really understand the situation fully, but I want to help. And so what to you was most helpful? Like, if you could help people see through the awkward. I mean, because it is an awkward situation. Right. Like for everybody. But how could people help in a way? Like, what was helpful to you, what was supportive? Because I think for listeners then that gives them an idea like, oh, here are things I could do. I don't have to just let the scariness of the legal situation make me sit on the sidelines and do nothing. So what was helpful to you and what might people consider in a situation like this?

So there's three things, I think three subjects That I would cover. It would be emotional, physical, and financial. So emotionally, you know, I'm speaking of a woman. I realize this could be a man as well, but I'm speaking from my own experience. But. So for that context, I'll use the word a woman. But a woman is experiencing the loss of her marriage, the loss of her dreams, the loss of, you know, expectations. She's having a whole year of first, you know.

Yeah.

So it's a grieving process. And just sitting and being present with someone in those moments is huge. You don't have to say a word. Just sitting and just. Because really, what can you say? But the reality is, if you avoid.

Her.

You'Re not doing her any favors. You know, she's living this day in and day out from the very waking moment, probably throughout the night. You wake up, you wake up to this reality over and over and over, and you keep thinking maybe it's a dream. And then you wake up and you're experiencing it all over again. So this is her reality 24 7. So don't avoid her, you know, be. Go. Go to coffee, do normal things. Have talk. Talk about your own life.

Right.

Tell her what's going on in your life. Of course. Cards and letters are great. I still have the cards and letters I was given. It's a giant box of cards and letters I'd been given that year and actually just came across a gift card recently, which I'm sure is no longer.

Valid, but, hey, still worth a try. Check that balance online. Yeah, if not, I'll take it. Okay, I'll search.

Give it a try.

Yeah, right.

Thanks, Trevor.

Yeah, no problem. This is how I support you.

So. So emotionally just being present and not avoiding when I had. People often avoid me in the grocery store or at church. Jen's coming, you know, and you're like. And you already feel immensely alone in the situation, so just go up to them and give her a hug or give her a smile or just whatever. Just don't avoid. Just be with her in that. In that moment. And then physically, my friends were amazing. They took my kids out. They took them out shopping so we could all have Christmas gifts that year. I had friend. I had another friend that mentored my boys and took them skiing. Another friend that bought some golf clubs and was so. We had. I had men step into their lives that were going to mentor and walk with them through that. The church. We were in the middle of a remodel. The church came in and finished the remodel. They helped me sell my Home, I had people step in and help do a garage sale. Of course, the cleaning and the moving. And one really cool thing is when we moved into our place, I was so busy doing the garage sale parks. We did it all at the same time. A garage sale. And the move that my friends had, unbeknownst to me, had taken all the Boyd's boys items and went to the place and made their rooms up perfectly. So by the time I got to the house, when I was moving, the couches in their rooms were done. Posters are on the wall, curtains are up. They have their own space. It was like such a sweet gesture. One of those things that I didn't have to worry about. They just stepped in and did it. So physically stepping in and those waves was huge. Then the boys school, they. They realized what we were going through. So all the teachers, the staff got together and decided on Wednesday nights, we will not assign any homework and we will make a meal for this, for this woman and our kids. So every Wednesday night, my boys didn't have homework. They provided a meal so we could just be together. We didn't have any stress. I mean, how cool for a. For a school to do that, to recognize a need and meet it in that way. And then, you know, even like the hospital, we were chosen as the family to support. I guess there are some advantages to it being public.

Seriously.

We got a lot of Christmas presents that year. But. But essentially what I. What I. My point is finding creative ways to physically help somebody out.

Yeah.

Was my. The community excelled at that. So. And then financially, the church had set up a trust fund. So that. Because I was now a single mom with no education and no way to bring in money, really, the church set up a trust fund. And so they helped pay my mortgage and utilities, of course, like I said, gift cards. And then the bigger thing was they helped me stay out of debt. So I was able. People donated money to that fund, and then. And then I was able to live on that and go to school for two years.

So which, interestingly, as you're sharing it, none of those things exactly have to do with what happened. They're more of finding other areas of your life to help come alongside and support you. I mean, I just, I think about, like, my wife is super good at that, way better than I am. I'm like, oh, let's just solve the problem. Let's get in, let's do this all, you know, whatever. But having people that are just like, you know what, you probably need your kitchen cleaned or you need someone to help you do laundry. Like, even things like that.

That is solving the problem.

Yeah, like. And that's what I'm hearing you say.

Yeah.

And I like that. Be creative about how you support people.

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah.

So let's twist it then. Those are the helpful things. So what. What are things that people did or tried to do that were least helpful in this situation?

So a couple of least helpful things are. You must have known, didn't you? You. You knew, didn't you? Wow. No, no, actually, I didn't know. I was actually completely clueless, and those that knew me knew that. But then you'd always have the naysayers that kind of would walk in and say, and then I had people ask if I participated, if I. If I took a role on this. So, Nick, I wanted to ask you this. You've used the term spiritual bypass, and tell me if this applies or not. Or maybe you can kind of clarify, but someone also told me you're going on a grand adventure with Jesus right now. Would that be an example of spiritually bypassing or not?

Maybe in the sense that it kind of disregards the pain you're in and the emotional turmoil and just puts all the focus on, well, let's just get to that happy place. Let's just see the good. And in that regard, yes, it's not exactly what we mean by it, but it's an example. I think it's an example of the way we try to over spiritualize people's pain. We try to clean up the mess and sanitize it and just say, let's make this a happy, shiny journey. And so in that regard, yes, that's very much what we try to do with our pain and other people's pain.

Yeah, it was interesting as people would send cards with a lot of scripture in those moments. I didn't receive super well because I felt like they were over spiritualizing the pain I was experiencing. But over the years, I've been able to go back and reread that's Cool through there, and it spoke to me in a completely different way.

Super cool.

So. But, yeah, those were some of the ways that just really weren't helpful.

It's like we're trying, and I said this on a podcast a little while ago, but that idea, we're uncomfortable with watching people suffer. Therefore, we try to hurry them through it so that we can feel okay. And what we're doing is either minimizing or moralizing their pain. When it's interesting, I'm thinking of speaking of scripture when it's very clear that suffering produces perseverance and character. But it doesn't say to hurry through suffering. Like, if you could just put a highway through your suffering, then you can hurry and get to what if it's the actual journey and the process of grieving and the process of normalizing what does life look like now? And then trying to set a different trajectory for where you're at, maybe that's what gets you to character and to growth rather than, let's just solve this as quick as we can tie a bow and move on like that. I just don't see any value in that approach.

So. Good. Pastor Trevor.

Okay.

No, no, I actually sincerely mean that.

That's been my experience. People, like, do that. I do that consistently.

Yeah.

Which is sucks.

And I'm so a question a little bit off the script, and you invited this, so I don't feel like I'm putting you on the spot. But, yeah, you talked in this episode about having experienced the date rape and then the completely being blindsided by your first husband's behavior. And I only imagine there had to be some questions about God, why did all this happen? And maybe some. And some anger there. How do you feel you learn to trust again? Or how are you learning to trust after situations that had to just deteriorate your trust? And I know if people listen to your Stories of Healing podcast, you. You and Dan talk about that a little bit, but just in light of the first marriage in particular, like, what did it look like for you through those years? And because I imagine it was years to learn to trust people.

You know, that's actually a very complicated question, because ironically, I didn't have the questions of God. Do you care about my kids? Because in that moment, it really came in my second marriage when I was truly leveled out, like, how did we get here? And that's when I really questioned God. Because in the first marriage, when all this took place, it was so grand. It was so big. And at that moment, I hadn't gone deep enough to really ask those questions. And so I did the Christian thing, like I did when the pornography was first exposed. I was the good Christian. I was strong, and people had me up on this pedestal. You're just so amazing. You're so strong. You're just, you know, so I played the role. And so I don't think in the first marriage that. That I really even unpacked any of the unfairness of it. And quite honestly, when I can't believe I'M saying this out loud, but I think I like the attention. There was a lot of attention. I was getting a lot of ego stroking, a lot of support. So I didn't really need to question anything because everyone around me was indicating that they were going to take care of me. So I didn't really feel the impact. But it was when things went south with Dan, everything that I probably should have been feeling in that first marriage combined with my second marriage.

Yeah.

That's when it leveled me. So that actually came. That piece came a little bit later, and I don't. And that was when I questioned whether or not I even believed in God.

Yeah.

And he was mean, and he always wanted me in crisis because if I was in crisis, I would rely on Him. And, you know, so my. My God complex really shifted, really, in my second marriage. But I'm sure it had absolutely everything to do with the trust issues.

Many of us are there, like many of us throughout our life and our suffering and the trauma we go through, we get to that place, like, really, you just want me in crisis all the time, therefore, that's the only way that you can grow me.

Or. Right.

Yeah. It's really easy to get to that point.

Yeah. Or I think the helpful advice I take out of that is many of us walk through things that just. They kind of overwhelm our senses and we don't know what to do. And so we just. We survive. We get through it, but that doesn't necessarily mean we've processed in a healthy way what happened to us and what we experienced. And like we see in so many people's stories, it's going to catch up with us sooner or later. And so an encouragement. Whatever situation you're in, one of the things we're really big proponents of is you have to lean into it. You have to lean into the pain. And yeah, it hurts, but. But that's the way to health and growth and change is processing and going through it, rather than just like, well, that was a big hairy mess. Let's just push that one away and move on with our life. It's still there. And so interesting how it came up then, in your second marriage to deal with it.

Oh, and I'm so glad it did because it brought me to a deeper, truer reality of who Christ is and his love for me. And I wish I had done it sooner, but I wasn't equipped at the time and didn't have the motivation at the time. So. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, let's ask the question that maybe isn't comfortable to ask, but is a reality for some people is what if a person has some fears or concerns that maybe their spouse or a family member or even a close friend. Friend is involved in something illegal presently, or they fear that something illegal in their past hasn't come up, what should they do? Should they press into that and try to investigate, get the person to confess? Should they get legal advice? Should they just avoid it and pray that God exposes them? I think in our Christian circles we get a lot of advice about, well, you know, God will, he'll. He'll expose their sin. You don't have to. But that seems like, well, if we're concerned about something, we should maybe do something. So what would you say to a person? Just like I have some concerns about a person in my life, what do I do?

Sadly, we get this question weekly at Pure Desire. This is not an uncommon thing that's taking place. So first of all, if you're going to ask directly, there's a good chance you're not going to get an honest answer. In my experience.

Good point.

When someone's struggling with some sort of sex addiction, they're not doing typically super gung ho to to be all open about that.

They're living in avoidance.

They're living in denial. Yeah.

100 right. Right. And I just might want to make it really clear if you know, you, you need to call the authorities. I have a gal in one of my groups has become actually quite a good friend of mine. She discovered something and she had to call the authorities on her husband. And it was she. Basically what she did is she called her mom and had her come pick up her children and then called the authorities and waited outside for the authorities to show up and had her husband arrested. And wow, really difficult situation. But she knew and she knew she had to do something. Especially when it comes to minors. We have a moral obligation to step in and do something there. But by all means, seek legal counsel. Yeah. Even for yourself.

Right.

Let him deal with his own legal counsel issues, but seek legal counsel for yourself. Know what your rights are.

Yeah.

There's victim rights advocates that can walk you through that process.

Yeah.

And so seeking legal counsel is super important for protecting you and your children and the steps, you know, that goes into it. But past. So things that have passed, happened in the past are still needing to be reported because there's no statutes of limitations on, on that. So. So understand that just because it happened in the past doesn't mean it doesn't get reported. And of course we always encourage people to self report, but if. If you know that abuse is taking place or you're suspicious that abuse is taking place, especially to a minority, we have a moral obligation to tell that to an authority and then let them work out the details.

Yeah, yeah. I think it's just a reminder to all of us why, you know, our groups are not, you know, they are safe and confidential, but if something is brought up where there is abuse or violence towards vulnerable populations, minors in particular, but that can include elderly and disabled, that we are not, we are, as groups, mandatory reporters, that information needs to come out. And I think the sentiment can be, oh, well, this, this would be so hard for them. I don't want it to hurt their, you know, reputation or their marriage or their family. But we need to look at the flip side and say, but who am I protecting by needing to expose that? So, yes, it might be very painful for that person, but if it helps protect others who are vulnerable, that's why, as you say, Jen, it's a moral obligation to say that this needs to be reported. And I know it might suck for you, but it's the reality of you're facing your consequences. And that's really the only way we heal is when we have to face the music. And for some, it's just facing the truth that, yeah, I've been looking at pornography and others that maybe they need to face harsher truth. But whatever it is, the pathway to healing for that person is the same. It's going to be facing the truth and dealing with consequences and then facing it so you can change.

You know, ironically, when my first husband was arrested, he. He had divulged more than. Than what he was actually originally being arrested for. And he had said, because we had seen him a few months after that, he had said it was even though he was in prison, he felt so much relief because the weight of what he was carrying was so, so, so heavy. And I think you hear that consistently at any level.

You can hear that, right? Yep.

I'm glad I was caught.

Yeah. Yeah. But one thing I want to mention before I forgot is forget there is. Have you heard of Darkness to Light training? Okay, so check it out. Darkness to Light. I'm sure it's dot com. I'll have to check that out.

Well, I'll research and put in the show notes.

Okay, great. So Darkness to Light really helps take you through how to recognize any type of minor being abused. And so, you know, the. The minors that were abused had amazing parents, very engaged, amazing parents. But they were with somebody, my husband, who was trusting and kind and a part of. Kind of a part of the family. So. So it's easy to miss, even if you're the most diligent parent. So getting the training and understanding what it looks like for anybody, even now that I have grown kids, I'm going to take the training as well because I want to understand what does this look like, like in everyday life.

Yeah.

So getting that training is important too.

Yeah. I think another practical thing just to make sure people understand is they can contact us, like if that seems like an easier first step. This is stuff that we've seen. Some of our staff have even experienced it on both ends. And so I think this is something that we're happy to be a support and a help to kind of give you a path of what it may look like. Because that, like the idea of calling the authorities or even researching what do I do? That can be really scary. But sending a message or an email or phone call can really be maybe a good start as well. So just keep that in mind. Okay, so based on your experience, based on really this whole, this 15 year experience, being able to look back, what are some first steps, and let's be specific right now to women, if you are a wife and your spouse has either been arrested or is going to prison for, for a sexual abuse or a sexually related issue, what are some first steps that that woman could take or should take?

Okay, first of all, just be aware and live in the moment. I think so often you kind of alluded to it with the scripture. We try to just. Just kind of fast forward and being in the moment, fully accepting what's there and really going through that grieving cycle is an important part of where you are. Because I was a little bit detached from reality, which, which now in hindsight I wish I hadn't been because I could have been a better mom, certainly could have processed or maybe even avoided a lot of my own pain in the future had I been more present. So not stepping away from disassociating from the realities is. Is an important piece. You know, you really want to be aware and living in that moment.

Let me ask this question then off that because I have heard and have seen that in our response of going kind of numb is really almost, in some ways is the Lord has set it up that that's almost a way to just survive in the moment when something first happens. So if I'm hearing you right, it's not that don't feel shame because of that don't feel shame, that if you do go numb and you have that emotional experience, but as things unfold and as it goes on, allow yourself to grieve, to feel those emotions. Don't stuff. Is that what I'm.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Because I think going numb is a tremendous gift from God. Right.

Which sounds weird, but it's.

Oh, it's. That's what the limbic system does.

Right.

You know, it's a survival system and you're right. But some of us have will stick our head in the sand and won't deal with the bills, won't deal with the reality of what's around you because it's too much. And there has to be a balance between enjoying that gift that God has given us and engaging in the true reality that doesn't take you to a deeper place that can be harder in the long run. So yeah, thank you for clarifying that.

Yeah, sure.

So also prepare for different responses. Know that not everyone processes the same way that you do or you know that you're going to gain some friends and you're probably going to lose some and that's okay. God's got it covered. He's going to, he knows who needs to be in your life for that, for that moment in time. Make a budget. Try to avoid going into debt if you can. Of course I had this amazing support but not everyone had the support that I had. However, there are resources and that was one of the things that was super frustrating for me at the time because I didn't have. I didn't know how to go to school and get financial aid because we were going off of my husband's tax record. So I didn't qualify for anything even though I had no money, so I couldn't. There, there are ways to get help. So look at, dive into what the resources are there. There are definitely some out there. Self care, eating and sleeping are a huge piece of surviving and so doing things that are, that are healthy for you. Make a plan to people. You'd be surprised at how off, how thrown off you can get when you actually don't make a plan to tell people. So set in, set in line how the groups of people that you're going to tell and how you're going to tell them and how much you're going to tell them. Especially if it's not super public. You don't have to share everything with everyone. Not everyone's in the arena with you.

And don't feel like you have to do that part. The making a plan alone, like, have somebody that's a trusted advocate with you to help create that plan. Yeah.

Very good. Yes. Yes. Find support. A grief counselor is huge. Finding support for your children is huge. Although my kids did not like counseling, they now see the benefit that they did not like it at the time.

Does anybody really like counseling when they're.

I do. I love it.

Okay.

And then later on, you know, maybe not initially, but joining the Betrayal and Beyond group. I'm telling you, this was huge for me to understand the brain and how my. How my husband, who was a great dad, did the things that he did, and it doesn't justify anything he's done, but the understanding gives you a little bit of footing, gives you something concrete to hold on to. So the Betrayal beyond material is excellent when you're ready to get to that point to. To process at that level. And then last but not least, establishing rhythms and routines that are. That are just normal, especially for the kids. You know, everything. Your. Their whole world is out of whack. Everyone's whole world is out of whack that's been affected by that. So establishing routines and rhythms that are normal.

Yeah.

You know, we would go to Barnes and Noble on Friday nights, read books and drink hot chocolate. Yeah. So it became this rhythmatic. That was the one thing they could control, the one thing they could count on when the emotions were everywhere. The one thing we could count on was daily routine. So 1.

And what you're doing at that point, too, is you're investing in your family, that even though you've had this thing, you're still trying to have fun and connect with your kids, which is. I mean, they're just as much a victim of what happened. The out. You know, the. Basically the fallout of all the stuff they're feeling trauma, too.

Yeah.

I feel like it's. No parent sets out to forget their kids, but I think it is something that we see happen.

Yeah.

Well.

And just the reality that life goes on. And I don't mean that in like a harsh, you know, buck up and forget it way. I mean, in the truth of. You do see situations where someone is so devastated by what happened, they stay stuck there, really, to the detriment of their kids, and that becomes the family story. Well, you know, dad ended up in prison, and mom never recovered. And so we grew up without a mom or a dad.

And.

And so to say, if you're in that place, life goes on for you and your kids or. And your family. And to say how can we do this the best way possible? Yeah, it's.

That's.

It's not going to change what happened, but we need to rebuild the best we can. And I think staying present, making those routines, I mean, a lot. A lot of great help there. And so, Jen, we appreciate you sharing so much your story. Being open a podcast like this, I can see being one that many people listen to and appreciate, but becomes one that gets shared because they hear, oh, my goodness, I have a friend going through this. Or when they hear the story, they're going to recommend this podcast. And what that means is there are likely people listening who this was shared with them by a friend or a family member who. They're in the middle of this or they're on the front end of it. So, what. What kind of encouragement could you give to a woman experiencing a similar situation? What would you want to tell her that you would have wanted to hear 15 years ago?

Simply that it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. There's going to be days where you feel like you can't get out of bed, and you. But it's. It's going to be okay. Just one step in front of the other. I. What was encouraging for me was someone telling me, you're. You have what it takes to be a good mom through this. And then knowing that others have gone before me. Yeah, you reach out. We're here. That's what we're here for. We share these stories to let you know that you're not alone and you don't have to walk this alone. And so while those things probably hold a limited amount of encouragement, any amount of encouragement is important to a woman who. Who's been in the shoes that I've been in. It doesn't need to be bigger, doesn't need to be made smaller. It just needs to be there. Just let me know I'm going to be okay, and then I'm going to nail this mom thing. I can do this mom thing through all this chaos. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's cool.

Yeah, I mean, I just. I really would. Echo. That's the whole reason why we did this episode is just so that people understand that you're not alone, that this is not something you have to do on your own, and it's not something that you're the only person in all of humanity to have to go through. Sucks and it's super hard. But even just the time we've spent with you, Jen, like, your life now, after processing it, like, learning, growing Yourself, like, life is completely different. Like, your relationship with the Lord, what you get to do is different. And I think that it's often easy, as especially followers of Jesus, to say things like that in order to kind of justify the bad. The bad is the bad. But what's amazing about the Lord is that he doesn't just let the bad stay bad, that he can reuse it. Absolutely. But we also have to partner in that and take those steps forward.

Yeah. The reminder for me as I hear your story, and I think it applies, you know, whether we're in the middle of the chaos of disclosure or the breakdown of a relationship or something legal going on, is that you are in a chapter of your story and you don't have to like it, and it may be the worst chapter in your book, but to remember that it is a chapter and it's not the end of the story, and the story will still be written, and by God's grace and with his help, you have incredible. I say control, but I don't mean that in a controlling way. I just mean you have a lot of influence over what the next chapters will say by how you respond to this chapter. So sometimes it's helpful for all of us just to be able to look at our life and go, okay, this is a chapter, and we don't have to like it, but there will be chapters coming that are going to read a whole lot better. And it really makes a difference in how we respond to this chapter. And so I hope for listeners, they hear a lot of encouragement from your story. They know we're here to reach out to and for all of us to remember. I'm not alone, because I think that's the enemy's weapon. He says, you're alone. You're the only one. And that's never true. No matter what your story is or how odd or messy it seems. Many have walked this road, and many have found that there is hope and freedom on the other side. And we don't just mean that in a glittery, happy, you know, pretend it's all good kind of way. We mean because we've seen the experience, that it may take time, but it may. It may even be a number of years before you feel like it's good again. But it will come. And if we have that hope, then we can keep taking those steps one day at a time towards that. That better future.

Yeah. God's faithful.

Yeah. Amen.

Yeah.

So this is a really difficult topic. It's sticky. It's really, really uncomfortable to talk about. But that's why we wanted to have Jen share her story. Understanding that really the depths of sexual addiction can impact others and how we respond, whether the one we're the one going through it or we're a friend, watching this happen can be so important. So Jen, thanks for sharing your story and being so honest. That's really hard to do if you are in this situation or sexual addiction has affected you in any way. Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, you can go to our website PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. And also if you have haven't subscribed to the podcast, we're having conversations like this all the time and we continue to push into this. So share it with friends and family, write a review. It'll help other people find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.