154 - Recovery Tools: Double Bind

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Well, happy day to you people. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and welcome to the Pure desire podcast, episode 154. Joining me is my co host, the Bob Vandermeer. Bob, welcome.

Hey, good morning. I think there might be some other Bob Vandermeers out there, but, you know, I'm one.

You are the in our minds.

Thanks. Thanks.

For the first time listener, they're not going to know anything's up. But for those that are regular listeners to the Pure Desire podcast, they are probably going into a little bit of shock right now wondering, where on earth is Trevor Windsor and why is Bob here? Yeah, truth be told, Trevor Windsor got the ax. So we're not going to see him around anymore. No, I just, you know, I never get to be the host, so I had to say something. The real truth be told is that Trevor and his beautiful wife Amy had their second baby. And so Trevor's on a few weeks off here, but as they say, the show must go on and we're going to make a couple of podcast episodes while he's out. So I get to be in this, the host role and Bob for today is the co host. So thanks for being here, Bob.

Yeah, pleasure to be here.

So before we jump into the episode, just a couple of things for you, our listeners. Number one, we want to encourage you to subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. We'd love for you to do that. We are on all the major platforms and we would love it if you would give us a review. That's a way that other people can hear about the podcast and maybe hear some of this same great content for their healing. Second, we'd love it if you would follow us on social media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, your desirepdmi. That's earedesirepdmi. And if you like video content, we do a few things on YouTube so you can follow our YouTube channel, Pure Desire Ministries. And then finally, before the episode, we are excited to continue announcing the Pure Desire Summit coming up in September. This is going to be our first ever national summit. A gathering of all the friends, fans and family of Pure Desire and chance to hear our team. Bob, you and your wife Rebecca are doing a session there. Yep.

Did you know that that's the word on the street? Yeah.

It's going to be a great time here though, in Portland, Oregon in the fall. And we hope that you'll consider coming. And if you'd like to, you can jump online and register. If you have concerns about if we'll be gathering in person at that time, we're also going to have a virtual event so you can sign up for that. And if you sign up for the in person ticket and for any reason can't make it, we can automatically transfer your registration to the virtual ticket, refund you the difference in price. So we want you to feel like in confidence people can register and come and hang out with us in September. And we're really looking forward to that event. And our guest speaker, Kurt Thompson, nationally known author and someone who's just got deep, deep insights into shame and how that affects our brain and our body. So we hope that you will register and join us at this great event September 11 and 12 in Portland, Oregon. You can go to PureDesire.org backslash PD summit. That's it's forward slash, forward slash. Man, this is why they don't let me do this job. It's PureDesire.org some kind of slash and then PD summit. You can find it on the website. That's all people really need to know.

It's so similar.

Bob, let's get into the episode. Like last week, we are going back to some of our most loved podcasts, if you could say, or some of our very earliest podcasts. When we started doing this about three, three years ago, we wanted to revisit some of these tools and the things that are just really essential to pure desire groups and people having these tools for their recovery. So we are going back to something called the Double Bind. And as a matter of fact, Bob, you were on that episode with us, so it makes sense to have you back and chat about the Double Bind again.

Awesome. Yeah, that's crazy. I listened to it this morning just to kind of make sure I repeated myself. And yeah, it's three, almost three years ago, my listened to the age of my kids in it, which is why we said no more talking about the age of your kids because it dates the podcast.

Yeah, well, I think as we share our examples, we may end up talking about our kids. But hopefully as we do this episode again, it gives people real understanding into how this tool becomes really critical in seeing what keeps us stuck and from moving forward. So if you're ready, Bob, let's jump into it.

I'm ready to go. Yeah. So just, just as a little refresher for our listeners, what is a double bind?

Yeah, the double bind that we're talking about is when you are stuck really between two choices or two places in your life, both of which have a negative consequence in doing them. So, for example, one that I talk about a lot in my story is procrastination carries a double bind. Because if I choose to procrastinate, it's going to maybe make a deadline harder. It's going to increase my anxiety and my worry about getting something done. I might start to speed up emotionally, and I can become triggered with anger because I know there's this thing I'm not getting done. So by procrastinating, there's a cost. But if I choose to not procrastinate, if I face whatever it is that I've been putting off, I may have some hard work to do. I may need to do something I don't enjoy doing or that I fear failure over. And so that also has a cost. And so when we talk about a double bind, that's what we're describing is a behavior or something that you are in that continuing in that will have a cost, but making a change also has a cost. And if we can identify the two costs that we're stuck between, it's kind of that proverbial stuck between a rock and a hard place. If we can see what we're facing and why we're stuck where we are, it often can give us the tools or the insight we need to make the right choice, which often it may feel or seem harder, but we can also see that it leads to a much better outcome. So identifying that double bind just becomes a real game changer for a lot of people.

Yeah. You know, I think in terms of the double bind as a tool, in the context of what we're doing at large, like what we're asking people to do is move towards healthier. And like this as a tool is just helping us to navigate some of those things that get us stuck. And as we're stuck, we, you know, we. Like a. Like a muscle would. There's apathy. And I'm sorry, not apathy. What's the word I'm looking for?

Atrophy.

Atrophy. Apathy as well.

That happens too.

Yeah, yeah. I think the apathy leads to the atrophy. But, you know, as we get stuck with something, we just deteriorate. I mean, whether it's in a physical state or emotional state or mental. And so the idea is to say we're moving towards healthier, so let's continue to work on ways of not being stuck, but instead of kind of gaining this momentum in this trajectory towards something better. And this tool is phenomenal in helping do that.

Yeah. And if some listeners aren't real familiar with our workbooks or the groups, this double buying tool shows up in many of our groups in the group check in. It's something after you've gone through your faster scale that then you try to identify the double bind that you were facing on your faster scale. And it's also something we encourage group members to use at the end of the group when they're doing their commitment to change. Because when we're looking at something we're going to face in the week coming up that we want to change, we need to see the double bind that we're going to get into. The cost of doing it versus the cost of not doing it. So that's where it shows up in groups. And let's talk a little bit more about that. Bob, why is it important to identify when a double bind shows up in our recovery journey? Why is this so necessary?

Yeah, I think a lot of us don't recognize when there's a behavior that we want to change or there's something that we want to do, a dynamic of a relationship that we want to change, and we end up not changing it. It's usually because there's an associated double bind. And if we fail to recognize that, then we just kind of are destined to repeat the same thing over and over again. And so why are we stuck right now? There's a lot of people, there's a double bind around social distancing and what they're doing right now with their time at home and, you know, and they may say, well, I'm an extrovert and so I need more interaction with people. Well, okay, so what's the double bind for you then? And if they just go along with some of the assumptions that they have of this is how life is, but yet they say, I want to change and nothing's changing. And there's probably a double bind connected with it. And so when it comes to our sexual behaviors or our relational dynamics.

All.

This is a part of recovery. Recovery is not just about sexual purity, but it's about doing something healthy instead. And so, you know, if we see stagnation, then there's a double bind associated, Then we have to be able to work through that. Otherwise, again, we're just destined to repeat ourselves.

Yeah. When I think of the importance of this tool, when I look back, like when I was stuck in addiction and in a pattern of acting out, I think what I was blind to is the cost of not changing. Right? I mean, I can see the costs of changing, of being honest with my wife. I knew that was painful. Or maybe having to give up certain devices or ways of accessing the Internet to really change my behavior. I knew those things would be hard or painful, but I was often blind to that. In not changing, I was still making a choice for pain. I was living secrets. I was the guilt and shame of it. And once you start to see, oh, I'm choosing pain, either way, I've got to make a better choice about which pain am I willing to walk through and what's going to lead me to a better place. And so it can bring us a level of self awareness that leads to transformation. And, and it's really why I think we make a big deal of it. Say if you can start to see the double binds you're in, you're going to begin to recognize you are making a choice. Now let's work on making the better choice.

Yeah, this next question is great because it's kind of like saying, hey guys, you haven't been saying this very clearly. Let's say it clearly now. So this can become a difficult tool to understand. So let's simplify it. Will you give us some examples from your lives? Nick, you gave us that procrastination example, which is great. And I remember I've heard you talk about that before. So we know that this is a continued double bind. And I think for me that's really important in this to say that double binds aren't going away. Just because you're healthier doesn't mean you don't have double binds. We will always have double binds. It's kind of like in our physical health we are always battling gravity. And it's not like we can wake up one day because we're the healthiest we've ever been and be like, well, gravity is not going to be a thing for me today. It's always going to be there and we're going to have to act accordingly. And so I think in recovery, one of the things that's simple but really helpful for me is to remember I will always have double binds. And that does not mean that there is a lack of health in my life. That is just the reality of life. And so to approach it not as a failure, you're not failing because you have a double bind. Because we're, I feel like in recovery we're always looking for like markers to show that we're healthier or getting better or victorious. And when we do that, we fail to recognize, no, there's stuff that we're going to be working on for the rest of our lives that's called sanctification. And so the simplified part of this, for me, just to say, we will always have double binds. And that's not a measure of anything other than to say, that's the reality of life.

Yeah. You know, I'll give another example, like, from my life this week. My commitment to change in the group I'm in was to take time in the middle of each day, just, you know, five to ten minutes to stop, to meditate, to pray, you know, try do some deep breathing, just to put my mind and my heart back into a healthier place with God. But I recognize the double bind of to choose to do that means I have to stop everything else. I have to enter into something that can feel uncertain because I don't know how you guys all feel about prayer, but prayer, sometimes I feel really connected with God. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to myself. Sometimes maybe I feel God's asking me to do something, and I'm not sure is it God or is it. So there's some ambiguity to prayer time that it can be easy to avoid. I might feel more productive if I just keep working. So to stop has a cost, but to not stop, to not do that, I've just found, especially during this COVID 19 season that we're in currently, I'm more likely to kind of be driven by emotions or to get into maybe just a mode where I'm just kind of plowing through the day and getting stuff done, but not really thinking, not really keeping in mind what God might be leading me to do. So that also, in a sense, is a cost. Now, I bring up that one because those are a little less tangible. It's not like the pain of telling the truth to someone and their reaction and getting angry. But it is for me to say, well, why don't I stop and do this every day? There's a reason I don't make this a part of my day routinely, and that I've got to make it a commitment right now. It's to identify. It's hard for me to stop. It's hard for me to enter into that in the middle of my day, even though I know when I do, it's really good for me. So I think when I try to simplify it for people, it's just getting them to talk through. If there's something in your life that you want to be doing, More of or you know, you should be because it's healthy or it's a positive decision for relationships or for commitments you've made, but you're not doing it. There's a double bind. Let's just talk through. Why don't you do it? You know, I, I find a lot of guys, it's even might be around doing their homework for the group. And what they might recognize about their homework is that when they do homework it feels like they're going to be graded like it's performance, like, am I giving the right answers? Am I doing this right? Am I going to know what to say? And so that fear can cause them not to want to do their work. But if they don't do the work, then they know they're not going to grow, they're not going to have anything to share a group, they're not going to be participating. So that's a cost. And that's another one I think that many people face weekly about group is like, it is hard to do group work, but it's also hard not to. And we don't grow and change. So those are a couple of examples that I was thinking of recently.

Yeah, yeah. For me personally, it's helpful to connect some of the tools that we use. And so for instance, like we have a recovery checklist that we've taken from Michael Dye and the faster scale. And so the recovery checklist, one of the things in there is identifying fears and feelings and resolving problems. Okay. So let's just say I have a problem that I need to resolve that could have to do with my have relates my finances or my relationship or disclosure, things like that. So this is a problem. So from that recovery checklist I see I'm resolving problems. Well, if I haven't resolved it, then what is it for me? Then I go and I identify the double bind. And so the double bind for me is that if I do this, these are the negative things I face. If I don't do this, these are the negative things I face and follow that out, which results for me in another tool we use, which is the commitment to change. So like these things are all connecting. Like I'm, I'm resolving problems. Yes or no, what's the problem? I identify the double bind with it and from that then I have a commitment to change. Right. And so for me, just remembering like these aren't isolated tools, but these are all helping to work together for just health or process for us. It's really helpful.

Yeah, yeah. I'm curious, Bob. Going off script just a little bit here. But I know you're pretty comfortable with rolling with things. I know that you and your wife do a lot of counseling, meet with a lot of couples. As you work with people in the recovery process, what are some of the common double binds you find couples facing in recovery? Are there some that you just see, like routinely come up over and over that you could maybe explain and might help some of our listeners see things they're facing?

Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones, and it's always from like page one, chapter one, page one, is that you can only work on problems you own. And you know, to quote Genesis process, being stuck is waiting for someone else or something else to change in order for you to be okay. And that's a big double bind because we have, you know, we have a history of narrative within our relationships that says I do this because they fill in the blank. And so I think one of the biggest double binds is to say that I'm going to own like my process regardless of what my partner or spouse does. Like, I'm just going to own it or I'm going to own my process regardless of what job I have, or regardless of, you know, politics or pandemic or like that's the biggest double bind that we start with. Another one that we have is like couples doing check ins with each other or individuals doing check ins with their group. And this is just a regular double bind because it's. It requires effort, it requires vulnerability, it requires me to talk to somebody that I may not feel like talking to. So those are two big ones. And you know, the checking in one. It's kind of a lot of people, we're in this all or nothing thinking, I think very black and white. Like we do it perfectly or we don't do it at all. And really all we're doing is starting a conversation like me making a check in call or me doing a check in with my spouse. It's not a one time thing. It's just part of an ongoing conversation. And so we end up not wanting to engage in it when we think I have to do it perfectly or not at all.

Yeah, yeah. Well, when you think about it, even vulnerability in and of itself is a double bind because choosing to be vulnerable involves risk putting something out there that I might fear rejection or fear how people will look at me or how they'll think of me. But if I'm not vulnerable, if I always choose to kind of hide things or cover up, and I don't mean that people are intentionally lying. I just mean if we choose to not reveal how we're feeling and thinking and we keep all that to ourselves, then we're not going to be able to grow very close to others in relationship. And so vulnerability in and of itself is choosing to lean into a double bind and say it's worth the risk of being known versus covering stuff up and not being known because then I can't have close relationships.

Yeah, yeah. So what are some mistakes that people make when identifying their double binds? Because this is a big part. Right. We have to identify the double bind to be able to work through it. So what are some mistakes that people make in doing this?

Yeah, I think the one that comes to mind for me, and I kind of alluded to this earlier in the podcast, is the mistake of only looking at double binds that have a real tangible consequence. So, you know, for example, if I don't do a project at work and I think I might get fired, that's an obvious cost versus the pain of doing the project and maybe the fear of failure. But sometimes, if it's not as obvious, if it's more an emotional cost, if it's something that might be hindering my relationship or just a part of my personality that's resistant to change, we can overlook those things. So it's like, well, I just didn't feel like it. But that's not a double bind. Right? It's like, well, no, if there's resistance that you don't feel like doing something, you've got to ask that why? Question and kind of dig into the what's behind this? And why does that feel like a fear to you? And so I think it's just encouraging people to get outside the box. And even if the cost isn't something tangible or practical, that it may still be a very real cost if it's something they're feeling or experiencing, even in their own person.

Yeah. One of the ones for me is, I think a lot of people, if they'll view something, maybe a decision or a double bind, and they think, well, that can't be a double bind because that's like, very surface level, and we fail to see the depth, probably that's behind that. Because if we're stuck on something, like, if we're stuck making a decision, there's usually something that connects deeper. So, for instance, like, for example, I look out my window and I can see my backyard right now. I can see my grass. My grass needs to be cut. So what is the double bind for me in Cutting the grass. Well, I could say, well, I have to ask my neighbor to borrow their mower. And, you know, I find the time to do it okay. But really, there's a lot of double bind that goes into me cutting my grass because I have to ask my neighbor. And the reason I have to ask my neighbor is because I don't have a mower. Well, why don't I have a mower? I had a mower, but so why don't I still have a mower? Well, I had a mower and I left it outside because we didn't have room in our garage. And so when I left it outside and I didn't cover it with a tarp, probably because I was just being lazy, it ended up, you know, getting damaged. And so I went to start it. It didn't start. And so instead of me going and finding out why it didn't start, I ended up just giving it away to a lawnmower place. I gave it away to a lawnmower place because it was an old mower. And I justified, well, I shouldn't do this, Whatever. But really what I had was the fear that if I tried to fix it, I wouldn't be able to fix it. And if I couldn't fix it, why not? Because my dad can fix a mower. My grandpa could fix a mower. So what's my problem? That I am not capable of fixing a mower? And the other part of it is, well, then why don't I just buy a new mower? Well, I don't buy a new mower because I'm not as good with my finances as I should be. And if I was better with my finances, then I would be able to buy a mower. And I feel like my stepdad would be really disappointed in me that I'm not at a better financial place to buy a mower. So instead of me buying a mower or having the mower that I used to have, instead I have to ask my neighbor to borrow her mower. And all of that, it brings up for me these feelings of failure. So it's not just the inconvenience of having to cut my grass. It's not just the work that I have to put into it or finding the time to do it. It connects back to so much more stuff for me. And so we'd say, well, whatever, that's not a real double bind. It's just, I got to cut the grass. No, there's a lot wrapped up in that double bind. And so if we fail to pause and say, what's deeper here? Then we're missing the significance of that moment and that opportunity.

Yeah. What you're bringing up, Bob, is just that we are such connected people that our emotions connect to memories and experiences and fears. And I think especially it's more the stereotype of men. But I'm sure women can do this too. It's easy for us to compartmentalize our pain or our problems and just be like, well, I don't want to do that because it's hard. And it's like, well, why do you think of it as hard? And it often connects to things about our family of origin or growing up or skills that we do or don't have. And just the more we can unpack that. And again, that's the risk of vulnerability like what you just shared, Bob. It's very easy if I just say, well, I just don't feel like cutting the grass. That was my double bind. But if I could get to the root that the reason I don't feel like it is because I feel a little humiliated to have to ask a neighbor for help. Now it's getting me into my whole story. And that's really the value of the double bind. It's not I'm stuck because I do or don't like something. It's stuck because of the way it ties into all of my emotional stuff that we all have. And going back to something else you said, which I really appreciated, is just how double binds don't go away. As we get healthier, I think our double binds might change or we might find that they're different. But in life we're going to have double binds because we are emotional beings, we can be fear driven. We've got stories that still impact us. So just the more we see and know them, I think the more we can face them. But not only that, the more we can invite other people into helping us face those things.

Yeah, yeah. And we should.

We should. Should. I want. You should.

Potentially we can navigate through them better, more quickly, more effectively with less procrastination. But yeah, they don't go away, but we just get better at it. So what are some of the best practices for people to implement once they've worked through the double bind tool?

Yeah, I think as we identify the double bind, the other real question is, okay, now what? And I think as we find from the Genesis process, you know, Michael Dye makes that great point of saying the right thing to do is often the hard thing to do. So it's looking at okay, what steps will I need to take to face this? And depending on what double bind we've identified, sometimes they might be simple. It might just be why I need to make a commitment to this, and I'm going to be accountable by calling these people. But at other times, our double bind often will involve other people. It will involve a process, and it's not something we just, you know, can go out that day and fix it. So if that's the case, I think being patient with ourselves and. But having a plan to say, okay, who will I talk to? What do I need to ask for? And when will that happen? And I think the more specific we can make our steps, and this is where I go back to the Commitment to Change tool. And we're going to do a podcast on that, too. So I'm kind of alluding to some of this early, but the thought that when you've identified your double bind, you want that to directly relate to the plan you're making for your week and for it to be something specific and concrete that you're able to see if you're making progress or not. Because too often I think people's outcome of their double bind is, well, okay, I'm going to try harder to change. It's like, well, if that's our plan, that's kind of what had us stuck in our problems to begin with, is we were just trying harder to change without a plan and without any real steps towards progress. So I think that's what I would encourage, is just to try to break it down and, okay, what do I need to do now? And then what do I need to do next? And what will it look like, and what are the steps and how will I be accountable? Because when we can break it down like that, I think it's much more likely that we'll face it and we'll make progress.

Yeah, yeah, that's great. And it does lead a little bit into the commitment to change, but that is part of the best practices for it. I love what you said. Like, just pick. Pick something that you can do this week. And obviously you'll get into that in the other podcast, but that's. Yeah, make it practical. One of the important things also for me about approaching the double bind is it's kind of this idea that most of the time what you have to face if you do change is fear. So if I do change, I have to face the fear of being rejected, of being humiliated, of being alone, of feeling like a failure, of exposing my emotions, of feeling my emotions you know, so we have to face the fear of that because what is the. Is it going to be painful? Is it going to be too painful? You have to face the fear. So if we do change, it's. We face a fear. If we don't change, we face a guarantee because we're already living that. Like, if we don't change, we know how that plays out because that's already our life. If we don't reach out to our spouse and become vulnerable, we know what that's going to be like. It's a guarantee because we're living that now. There may be some things added on to that in consequences, whatever, but that's really important for me to remember that when I'm getting stuck, I'm usually stuck because of a fear, not because of a guarantee. Like, I may share these things with people. I may have to make some changes, and I don't know how people are going to respond to me. I don't know what it's going to be like if I have to work hard to do less things I enjoy and save more money so I can buy a mower. But I'm afraid of what it's going to be like. And that goes back to this phrase that we use, that fear can hold you back. And when we're approaching the double bind, it's so helpful for me again to remember that if I'm staying stuck, it's because I'm not moving past fear. And that's the fear. I have to process that. Otherwise there's a guarantee of what I'm going to end up with.

Yeah. Yeah, that's so good. Some other best practices I think of, you know, once you've identified a double bind, it really is essential that you do share it with someone. I mean, if you're in group, obviously that's a great place to share it. But if you're in relationship, if you're married, if you're dating, if there are people that you're close to that understand your story and where you're at, I think to be sharing your double binds with them can actually really help grow a relationship. Because if you're able to say to them, hey, here's something I've been stuck in, and it doesn't even have to be specific to your addiction. It might just be a habit or a pattern that you're aware of. And if you're able to say, I know this is why I'm doing it, but here's also, I've identified why it's hard for me to change. And maybe you're not even asking them to do anything. You just want to make them aware of it. And I know for my wife and I, when we have that kind of conversation, and I can really understand, like, for her, what's behind her fear or what's behind what she's feeling. It's so insightful to know, okay, well, that's how I can help, or that's how I can encourage her, or that's the way I can pray. So just when you've identified the double bind, make sure you're sharing it with someone so that they can be a part of that journey with you and then to go along with that. If you're struggling to identify a double bind, whether it's specific to your group process, your faster scale, or just maybe a problem you're stuck in, I think going to other people and just asking for their input can be really, really powerful. It can be humbling for me as a husband because it usually means my wife can see something a lot better than I can. But that's the reality of being a human being, that we all have blind spots and we don't always recognize our behaviors. And if I can take something to my wife, say, man, I'm stuck in this. What do you see? Or where do you think it's coming from? She usually has some pretty good insights. Now, I have to be open to receiving that. But it's just a reality for all of us that many people can see some things quicker than we can. And so if we're stuck being vulnerable and saying, hey, would you help me see what's going on here? Can really be a powerful tool to move us forward.

Yeah, that's great. And if we don't share that with these people around us out of with vulnerability, they're coming up with conclusions. They may not be judgmental conclusions, but they're drawing their own conclusions on why we're stuck. They can see areas of or they experience, like the byproduct or consequences of us being stuck, and they are drawing their own conclusions. And so when we're trying to gain a relationship or improve an emotional intimacy with, whether it's friends or spouse, us, letting them know, hey, this is my double bind, and this is what I'm afraid of. This actually is also empowering them to kind of partner with us or to be allies with us in this, because now they. It's not just that we're lazy, you know, it's not just that we don't care about them. It's not Just, you know, that we're trying to be self destructive or whatever, whatever conclusions we're coming to on our own, but that there's something else behind it. And you know, if you see people that seem to be like stuck in some double binds, maybe instead of drawing your own conclusion about it, ask them, hey, you know what, if you have this type of relationship, say, hey, you know what, it seems like you're stuck. Why do you think you're stuck? Instead of us coming to them and saying, all right, like, clearly you're this, this, this and this. Why don't you figure it out, jerk. Instead of coming with that, you know, approach to say, hey, you know, I care about you, it seems like you're stuck. Why do you think you're stuck in this?

Yeah. Yeah. It just becomes a really great way to grow relationships and grow in humility, grow in vulnerability. So encourage, encourage our listeners to keep leaning into the double bind. If you're in group, it's obviously something you're talking through every week. And in episode coming up soon, we are going to talk more about the commitment to change and how it connects there. So be waiting for that to come out. But the double bind really is a clarifying tool on our recovery journey. So press in through the confusion, ask for help. I've found there's definitely a learning curve on this, that it may take some time to get comfortable with it or get to a point where you feel like you're regularly seeing what your double bind is. But keep digging deep to see what's truly motivating your behaviors. And remember, courage is not acting without fear. It's acting in the face of fear. So Bob, thanks for joining us today. Thanks for your great insights. Good to have you.

It's always good to be here.

So wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to give you the roadmap of healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. And if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. It's free forever. Share it with your friends and family. Write us a review, help others find the podcast. And lastly, thanks to our friend Trevor, we want to say never stop being healthy. Sa.