157 - Recovery Tools: Phone Calls

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Happy day to you people. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 157 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stembo.

Jane, Jane, stop this crazy thing.

I don't know. I don't know.

Meet George Jetson, okay?

His wife, our producer Justin, is like you. I knew that one.

That was actually sent in by one of our listeners. So a big shout out. Thank you for that. Because, you know, sometimes the podcast intro, well, can run a little dry. And that was when I. I didn't know what it was from. Honestly, I didn't remember that either. But then when I saw the clips, like, oh, yeah, that's totally. That's George Jetson's running on this treadmill and he yells that in the intro to the show.

Got it.

Okay, good stuff. Good to know.

If it's not on Disney, I don't watch it. So we revisited another old friend today, another tool in the recovery toolkit. But before we get into that, a couple things. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. We're on all the major platforms and if you give us a review, it helps others find the podcast. Second, follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We are your DesirePDMI. And if you like to consume video content, we've got some of this stuff up on YouTube. And then lastly, just want to promote again the Pure Desire Summit coming in September.

Yeah, yeah, we're super excited and you know, we've been talking the last couple of weeks that we know we're in an uncertain time and maybe for some, the hesitancy to travel. And we're very hopeful that by September some can travel and will. But even if that's not a possibility, the PD Summit is going to happen because we're committed to having a virtual live summit. And we just see this as an exciting rallying point for our team. For anyone who's in a recovery journey, who's been a part of a Pure Desire group, to just be encouraged to get wind in their sails, to kind of have that high moment of remembering what God's done in our lives. So we hope people will sign up. You know, that you could buy your virtual pass now and if, you know, as this situation with COVID 19 develops, you feel comfortable coming later towards August, September, we'll just easily change your ticket from virtual to in person. But we'd love to have you register your spot so that we know you're coming. We can start communicating with you and make sure you have all the details. So go to the website. I think you're going to be glad you were a part of the event, whether in person or virtually online.

Yep. So just go to our website, PureDesire.org and if you look at the find an event page, you will see the Pure Desire Summit. Alright. So we talked about making phone calls today and we sat down with Bob Vandermeer, one of our clinicians, and talked through really, number one, why phone calls are important in recovery and why they're a tool and also why we struggle with them so much.

Well, and like the introduction, for many of us, our behaviors have been like a crazy treadmill that we're running on and we're trying to figure out how to stop the treadmill, how to get off, and that our struggle has been a day in, day out issue. It's not just something that maybe we acted out once in a while, but the underlying issues were a constant presence. And so what I think we really bring up in phone calls is how we implement healing, health and recovery as part of our routines, the disciplines that we do day in and day out. And that doesn't mean we have to make a phone call every day. But what we're trying to emphasize, if all we do is show up at group one week and do nothing until we show up the next week, the impact on our lives, the ability to stop that crazy treadmill is really, really diminished. So today we talk about how valuable phone calls are and helping us connect and really learn new patterns. So I hope everyone gets a lot out of it. And I know it was fun to connect with Bob and revisit a tool that we did, you know, for the first time over three years ago, but are giving some new advice and encouragement today.

Yep. And it is, I believe it's episode 12 we did with Brian Roberts back in the day. So that's a throwback. But yeah, as Nick said, this is a good episode. I think we're going to not learn, but maybe relearn a lot of stuff. So enjoy it. Bob, thanks for hanging out with us again today.

Hey, my pleasure.

Glad to have you. The last episode that you were on, I was with my wife while she was having a baby.

Yeah, buddy. How's the baby doing?

Thanks for asking. Baby's good.

Wife.

Wife is good. Wife's feeling a lot better. Sleep is still escaping us. But we could talk about that. Literally, we could do an Entire episode on just our sleeping pattern. So let's carry. Carry forward here. I don't think I've ever said those two words together in a sentence before. Carry forward. Anyways, here we go. We're continuing our series on recovery tools today. Today we're talking about one that I've seen over and over again be a struggle to implement and to use for so many people in recovery and in group, both in actually doing this or using this tool, and also in confusion why they're so important. And of course, I'm talking about phone calls. Phone calls. Really? Phone calls today. Did I just say phone calls? Ew. Can't we just text? No. Why? We'll get to all of that. So let's just start with this, boys. Why are phone calls so important in pure desire groups?

Yeah, it's a great question. I think part of it for me is that we had always done our addiction in isolation. Yeah. And making sure that our recovery is not done in isolation is really important, you know, and so it's kind of like even that our addiction was in secret. And then we need to make sure our recovery is not in secret. Which means, you know, people knowing about what's going on in your life and you bringing it out in conversation. I think phone calls are a great way to do that.

Yeah. I think about. And, you know, I could clarify a little bit. Phone calls. We could also say in person, human interaction. Because if you're able to actually meet with someone and talk to them, that could be effective too.

Now that we're coming out of COVID we can start to do that again.

Yeah. But it may be you've got a friend or coworker that's close enough, you could pop into their office and say, hey, could I take a couple minutes, share an update how I'm doing? But really the thought is we talk a lot about that. We're not just here to stop a behavior. We're here to change the way we do life. And if we're here to change the way we do life, that involves routines, it involves disciplines. It involves things that just become part of how we do our day in and day out kind of stuff. And so if we only engage in our healing once a week at group, we're really kind of missing out on that life change. If you only went to the gym one day a week, and that day you're hammering on it and really doing awesome, that's probably a good day. But for six days, you kind of lose sight and focus. You're going to find that you're stuck in a lot of the same patterns. And that's exactly what we see with men and women in groups and is if they're not having that interaction through phone calls and really staying focused on their goals and what they're changing, it tends to become a much longer process because the once a week group really isn't enough to cement those changes in our life. So that's, to me, the importance of phone calls is it takes your healing out of group and puts it into the rest of your week.

Yeah. And I think it's something too that like phone calls in general take effort. And it's one of those things where when you take that initial step, you are putting skin in the game, you are putting effort in, you are pushing into health and recovery. And so it's a tangible way that I see when you're doing your phone calls, it's actually something that you can see, you're pursuing health. You can go to your call log and be like, oh, I called three people this week. Those are three times that as you're saying, Bob, you broke isolation and took that extra step to connect and to check in with people in your group.

Yeah, yeah. I guess when we're saying phone calls, we're saying check in phone calls. Yep. Yeah. And that, that, yeah, it's, it's quantitative. Like you can, you can say, I've done this, this, these many times and we're going to get to a question about quantity here in a minute. But like, it's, it's something that's tangible, it's quantitative. You can let, if you're married, you can let your spouse know that you've done it or you're going to do it. Like there's all sorts of things that, that it, it's, it's definitely making it like what you said, Nick, out of just the group into the week and into the light and you can talk about that phone call with other people. Hey, you know what, I was having a phone call, obviously talking about yourself, but I was having a check in phone call and man, it was really good for me to just get that out and to share that with somebody. And that can even be an encouragement for other people to say, hey, don't just do this stuff on your own, but live life together.

That's good. So Trevor, you joked about this just a minute ago, but why can't, in a digital age and everyone's got their smartphone, why can't we just test text an update or message people how we're doing? I mean, wouldn't that be easier, more efficient? Why do we need to make a phone call versus just sending a text or a message?

100%, it's easier to text. You know, I think it's that level of investment. Like, you know, you talk about. I think people refer to it as like a keyboard warrior. Like, it's easy to sit behind, you know, the stroking of the keys and sharing stuff. For me, a phone call, you can hear tone. You can hear pauses in a conversation. You can hear emotion in someone's voice, especially during the pandemic and everything. FaceTime has become a good one. And we can talk a little bit more about that in another question. But if you can see the person's face or really there's just things you miss in a text message or in an email or Facebook messenger or something like that, you just miss on the emotion. And so I think for me, tone is probably the biggest reason why, because if I ask a question, a guy can respond, yeah, I'm doing good. And that's how I read it. But if I ask the question, how are you doing? And he goes, yeah, I'm doing good. It's like, oh, okay. Like, that is a completely different sentence. And you can't get that in a message.

Yeah. Yeah. I like my least favorite thing that for anyone to ever text me is the word sure. Especially if you text me the word sure without punctuation.

I don't know what that means.

Like, hey, hey, Trevor, you want to hang out later?

Sure.

Right.

Oh, I'm sorry. Is this an inconvenience time?

Yeah, like, are you.

And so, so, like, there's so much interpretation. And then even like, the limbic stuff that happens without that emotion, without that connection, without the facial expressions, like, it's just not a super effective way to communicate. I like this question because it says, why can't. Why can't we just text message people? Right? Because if there's not also that other interaction, whether it's a phone call or face to face, like, we can still hide in that. Like, I can send you a text message, you say, hey, how's it going? And I say, good. No punctuation. Like, I can totally hide.

Yeah.

Who knows where I am and what I'm doing?

Right. Yeah. Well. And let's be honest that the route to health and recovery is rarely easy and convenient. I mean, you don't think about, like, hey, there's this awesome new exercise. It's really easy and it's convenient. It's going to change your Life. It's like Skymaster. Yeah. I mean, it's okay to look for things like an easier way to do something that's difficult, or to figure out how to make your workout more convenient. But to say that I'm going to do something that's easy and convenient and it's going to make me a better person, it's just very rare that you're going to find that. In fact, I would say for most of us, if we've struggled with addictive behavior, it's because we've done what was easy and convenient and comfortable that we ended up where we are, that we ended up in really negative, unhealthy patterns. And so some of our recovery is to face difficult things, to be willing to do hard stuff, to lean into something that might be uncomfortable or that we don't feel like doing, but to have that perspective that says, but this is what changes my brain. Because it's not easy, because it's not what I feel like, but I choose to enter into something. My brain begins to adapt and adjust and learn and grow. And so, yeah, to put myself out a little vulnerable with my emotion on a phone call is much more difficult than the way I can just image manage in a text message. But it's also a lot more transformational. It requires me to think, to process, to interact. And I'm sure if we had a brain scientist here or if Heather Kolb could join us, she would talk about parts of the brain that light up with that in person interaction, that when you just text someone, you're not as engaged, you're not as present, you're not really learning and growing from that situation nearly as much as actually talking to someone. So it's for reasons like that and many more that we just say, hey, you can text people in your group to communicate something. Totally. But when we're talking about checking in on our recovery, what are we doing for health? What's our commitment to change? There's really no substitute for a phone call or that in person interaction.

Yeah. That just made me think of one other thing. That when someone texts you, you don't have to get back to them right away. But if someone poses something in a conversation on a phone call and you're just dead silent, they're gonna be like, bro, are you there? Like, I just shared some stuff. I just asked you a question. Like, get at me. Where we at?

Are you listening?

Yeah. So I think that there is that. Because that word present is what you used. I think that that's the thing you are present in that moment with that person engaging in relationship. I think that's huge.

Yeah, that's true. I mean we could be doing anything again. I could be in a work meeting texting or I could be driving texting. Don't do that folks. I could be doing anything. But if you're in a phone call, you have to have more focused attention.

Yep, for sure. Yeah. So because we don't want people doing their check ins via message or text message, something like that. Are there other options other than calling, especially today with the technology that we have or do we just prefer that people do just over the phone?

Yeah, I mean that's what I liked about that last question is why can't we just text or message? So take everything we just said with the caveat of do more check in phone calls. But then also you can text, you can facetime, you can like email. I mean those are great in my opinion. Those are great, like add ons to your check ins. Like those are extra things you can do. Maybe you have like use the R Tribe app, maybe you're doing other things where I mean, but those should be like additions to these other things that you're doing.

Yeah. You know, I kind of think of connection a little bit like a continuum that on the one end you might put text messaging as the lowest level of connection and maybe on the high end is an in person time over coffee that's like very direct and intentional and everything else falls somewhere on that spectrum. And so phone calls, you know, they're pretty close up on the high connection, personal interaction end and everything else that we might consider is going to be somewhere on that spectrum. And so I would just say aim for activities that put you closer to that high end of in person personal interaction, being engaged and connected with someone. And so I do know that like in my groups I'll give guys permission to leave a voice message because I think that is one of the tips we can talk about later that if we're always playing that game of well, who can I call? Everyone's working, I'm sure everyone's busy, everyone's home with their kids, I don't want to bother them. And so then we just never call. Yeah, I try to say, hey, if it's a good time for you to call, make a call. And if you get their voice message, leave a two minute check in, say hey, this is Nick. Here's what. Because you're still being personal, you're interacting, you're connected and you know they're going to hear it.

Right.

That they're going to hear that message and hopefully get back to you. But that that's moving you towards the right end of the spectrum. I've also heard of groups that will use like Marco Polo. You know, for those that aren't using the Marco Polo app, I think you're moving the right direction now. It's a little less personal because the person isn't interacting with you, but they can't. It's similar to that message that they can see you, they can hear you. You're choosing to be vulnerable with your words and your emotions and as they watch it, they can reply as well. So I think for some groups that really value kind of being able to see and interact that way, an app like Marco Polo can work because then when I have time I can, you know, message you back and say, hey Trevor, you know, thanks for your check in and I'm glad to hear this is working and you know, really appreciate your honesty about that. And I think that's moving in the right direction. So I think there are some options.

Yeah.

I just always encourage a group or a person not to make that your standard because I think for some people then it can become now they move towards what's easy and what's convenient. Not necessarily looking to how do I really learn to engage with someone else in my recovery.

And I wouldn't disagree with that. I think I have maybe a little bit of a different perspective that Marco Polo. The reason why my group had used it is you actually can do. People can see your face, they can hear your tone, they can hear what you're saying. And it's a video message that's sent to everyone in the group. And so you like, you can do multiple FaceTime stuff, but if everybody has different types of phones and can't, you know, you can't do that. So it's. It enables you to actually broadcast it to the entire group your check in and I love technology. You actually, if you're viewing it on Marco Polo, you can respond in the middle and it's usually late and interrupts the person, but it's a response. So it's definitely not what I would suggest we go primarily with. But I know it's been a really nice to use. I think the word you used, Bob, is supplemental. Like it just. That supplements that.

Yeah, yeah. I think two more thoughts for me is whatever is perpetuating or driving us into more communication and more relationship. Like let's take advantage of that.

Yep.

And especially if rigorous honesty is part of it. Yeah. Because the problem with text messaging for me we're talking about is it's more difficult to be rigorously honest and, and there's less of that connection. But like, if there's other things like Marco Polo or FaceTime or whatever else's technology is developing, if it's driving us towards more options and more connection and more relationship, then yeah, we should take advantage of that. For some people, phone calls are really, really difficult because they've never liked phone calls and they're uncomfortable in a phone call. But if they feel super comfortable doing Marco Polo, great. Like, let's take advantage of that in addition to.

Right, yeah. Yep. Yeah, I like that. So, guys, for those that may be new to group or new to this idea of some weekly phone calls, what should these phone calls look like? Give us kind of an outline of what someone should be trying to do when they make a call. And in addition to that, how often should we be making these phone calls?

Yeah, and when we say guys, we're talking. We're not just talking about males, we're talking about people that are in groups. Because this all applies to being in a betrayal.

I was saying, guys, as the three of you that are here with me, to those listening, men, women. Yes, everybody but children, pastors. Sorry, I was referring to the two of you.

Is the parakeet listening?

Probably.

Yep.

Get some good stuff out. I. Yeah. So in the material, like in most of our material we say like, you know, three phone calls a week, stuff like that. If I'm working with a client, like three. Three phone calls is the minimum for me that I want, you know, like a client to be making. But I think a lot of it is incremental. Like if you're going from zero phone calls and zero vulnerability with anyone ever, then, hey, let's start out with one phone call. That's progress.

Yeah, Yeah. I think for me, I have a unique situation that not many do that. The first group I was in, I was leading. That was just kind of situation we were in. For me, I've just kind of adopted. I try to call everybody in my group at least one time. And even if that means that we couldn't connect, but we left voicemails back and forth like that was okay. But for me, when I, when I make this phone call, for me, it's always tethered to the faster scale and the commitment to change. So always doing check ins on where are you at on the faster scale right now? Where have you been this week? On the faster scale, the Lowest point kind of dialogue about that because then that usually has got some juicy stuff in there about emotions and experiences throughout the week. And the commitment to change is really just making sure that everything we're doing that week is tethered to that commitment we made because we know that that's something we're putting in place to help us grow in recovery. And so those are the two things. Mainly if we talk about other stuff, great. If we talk about Tiger King or the Last Dance or golf or something like whatever, that's cool. We don't like that's don't just get in do like checkbox checks box. Okay, cool man. See you at group. Like there is relationship involved. But make sure. In my opinion, those are the two things I would say need to be in a check in call.

Yeah. I try to encourage people that short and sweet is okay if you cover the right content because we don't want to get into this mindset of okay, if I'm going to make a phone call, I need to have half an hour because we're going to talk and go deep. Like, I just find most people don't have that time and will never get around to it. But if I go, hey, I'm on a five minute break, I can make a phone call. That works. And I say this all the time. And if people have ever been in a group with me, they know it's true that my phone calls. I basically have a script. And I don't mean to. I just, I know what I'm checking in on, at least initially. So I'll say, hey, this is Nick. This week my commitment to change was. And I'll say, you know, maybe it was. I'm only going to be on social media between 9 and 10am in the morning and then off the rest of the day. And here's how I'm doing. Tuesday was a train wreck. I totally forgot about it. Wednesday I read it again. I've done really well. You know, today's Thursday, so far so good. So I'm updating in the moment on how I've done on that commitment to change. And then I'll say, I think the lowest point I've reached lately on the faster scale is, you know, maybe I say ticked off. Last night I got really irritated with one of my kids. I was impatient, but it's because I was preoccupied about a work issue and I was trying to get stuff done and I just, I didn't stop what I was doing to really talk and engage. So I got irritable and that doesn't mean I sat down and wrote out my whole faster scale. I've just, once you've done it for a while, you can start to feel where you were at. And I'm just trying to be honest about what I faced. And then I'll just bring up if there are any other significant issues that have occurred, points of temptation, maybe areas where I'd like them to pray. And in truth, I may be sharing two minutes worth at most. And sometimes a guy will say, hey, thanks for sharing that. I'll see you in group on Monday and all right, see you then. And in three minutes we've had what for me is a significant check in because I've shared with my commitment, I've been accountable to someone. I know a friend has heard me and has valued that sharing. And whether or not they had time to share their commitment, I know that we've connected. So it can help to kind of keep that in mind. Like I'm just trying to hit these high points. If there is time, you know, that friend I'm calling might say, hey, do you have a minute for me to ask a question or could we talk a little more? Because when you said this, I wondered how you're doing in this area. So sometimes those conversations do go a little longer, or sometimes they'll say, hey, since I've got you on the phone, could I share my check in? And if I've got time, I'll say yes and we'll talk longer. So your phone call certainly can go longer. And I'm not trying to prevent anyone that really would like to connect for a half hour on the phone, you know, go for it. But if we develop just this discipline and habit that hey, I've got a few minutes, I'm going to do one of my check in calls, then we're more likely to make that a part of our daily and weekly routines.

Yeah, practically for me that's looked like tends to be more like ping pong or tennis where it's like I share faster scale, then they share faster scale. I do commitment to change. They do commitment to change. Just another practical way that maybe you could format it.

Yeah, I think, I mean, what you guys have been saying I agree with. And to make sure that there's always a faster scale portion of your check in regardless of how long the phone call is. But to let people know where you are in the faster scale. Cause that's making you look at that obviously, like you have to look at this in order to share it, right? And then to connect that with what's going on in your group. So what was your commitment to change or what's maybe a new double bind you're facing now, but to use the same language, use the same tools as you're communicating stuff. Just so there's that continuity. So even back to the first question that where Nick, you said that it's not just what happens in our group, but it's happening throughout the week. Like we're using the same language so that this stuff is connected and we see how. Oh, yeah, the language that I'm using in my group about double bind and whom to change, this is what it's like in the middle of my week. Because for most of us, the first time we step into a group, we don't talk like this. Like, we don't use these tools, we don't use this vocabulary. And so now, like, oh, this is how a double bind that I talk about in my group connects to me being on my lunch break at work where I want to procrastinate and check out and play a video game.

Right.

You know, like this. That's how these things are connecting. So just to use the same language and the same tools.

Good. So what would you guys say then? Are some things that you've seen or that you have done that you would suggest people avoid when stepping into a phone call? Check in.

Yeah. My first thought kind of flows off of what Nick was just saying is that for me, unless it's a scheduled phone call. So I guess I'll say this. In some groups, they schedule their calls at the end of the meeting.

Yeah.

That's a good practice meeting until the phone calls are scheduled. And that's great. But if it's not a scheduled phone call, that if you pick up the phone and call, that's because you're making a check in.

Yeah.

That we don't expect the person on the other end to answer and that they're available for a check in as well. In other words, I think some of the mistakes that we make is that I call. Let's say I call Nick and just because I have a half hour, I expect him to have a half hour.

Yeah.

And just because I'm ready for a check in, I expect him to be ready for a check in.

Right.

And that ends up kind of creating this dynamic in the group where Nick doesn't want to pick up the phone anymore when I call.

Yeah.

Because he knows that I'm just going to ramble for hours.

Yeah. It vilifies it Vilifies your group members. Yeah.

Right.

And, and so, so I guess two things with that is the communication of that if I pick up and make a phone call and I only have two minutes, that I let you know that immediately. Hey, Nick, I need to make a check in, but I only have two minutes. And vice versa. If Nick picks up and Nick only has two minutes and he says, hey, Bob, I saw you calling, I wanted to answer, but I only have two minutes, just communicate that, like right at the beginning what the expectation is or availability for time. Because I feel like the biggest mistake that we make is assuming other people are ready to check in with me when I call and have the same amount of time that I have.

Yeah, it's good.

Yeah. I think the mistake that I see happening the most is people are just too vague. They're not really remembering their commitment to change or keeping it before them. And so, you know, I'll get a call that's like, hey, you know, this is Joe. And it's been a pretty good week. Things are going okay. You know, nothing too bad. I'm feeling pretty good about life. And yeah, that's just wanted to call and check in. And you're like that. You just said nothing. Life is okay. It's good. I mean, and maybe all those things are true, but it kind of says to me they haven't really taken any time to analyze what's driving me, what's tempting me. And again, I'm not trying to put pressure on someone to say, boy, before you make a phone call, you better sit for two hours and figure out everything that you're dealing with. I mean, I honestly take maybe two, three minutes to just kind of self check in. Okay, like, where am I at? I read my commitment to change this week, Kind of think through my week, how's it gone? Where have I been successful, where not. And then I make a phone call. So it's not this huge, long ordeal. But I think if we're just calling to check in and have no. Haven't thought about our week at all, we're really not providing any value for us or for them. So make sure you've thought a little bit about where you're at and that as much as you can, you try to be specific. If you're having a rough week, say why it's a rough week. You know, maybe it's to say my wife and I are just at odds because of some financial conversations we're having and we don't see eye to eye. And it's Creating a lot of frustration for us. I'm feeling emotional. I'm getting angry. Well, that's really specific. You're being vulnerable about that. I know how to pray for you, maybe how to encourage you. But if you just say, well, there's been some tension at home, it's like, come on, the point of us being in group together is you can get real. You can go beyond just, well, it's kind of rough at home right now. Okay. Why is it stuff. You're doing stuff. She's doing stuff outside of your relationship? Because the more you engage in that in the phone call, it's really going to help you in your accountability. So just don't be so vague that it doesn't help anyone.

Yeah. And I think you guys are. This is really good. You guys are talking about actually doing the phone calls. I think there's also another piece of. And I. Man, especially when I have kids. Like, I've had some single guys in group who. They use the excuse, like, oh, I didn't want to bother you. I know you're married. I know you have two kids. Like, I know you're busy. I know it was late, all this stuff. And in reality, you're actually hurting yourself by not reaching out, even if you're making like, yeah, I am busy. Yeah, I do have two kids and I'm married. But I'm also in this group with you, and I'm committed to this with you. So if I can't call, guess what, bro? I'll get back to you when I can. It may be an hour, but you've called me. You've taken that step. You broke out of isolation, which you should feel good about. That's a win. And then also, you left a voicemail. And guess what? You processed out loud what was going on. And that was helpful for you so that I have context when I call you back. Like, oh, okay, so John was feeling triggered by someone disrespecting him at work. Now when I call, I'm like, hey, bro, how are you doing? Heard your voicemail. Let's talk about this. What happened to work? So, for me, what it does is it creates this excuse, like, I don't want to bother. I don't want to do this, but it's like, we've all committed to this together. And you also have to understand that using those excuses, even though they may be based on truth or reality, are actually keeping you from moving forward in recovery. So I would avoid using the excuse. I just don't want to bother them. Because it's midnight. It's like, bro, if you're triggered and something's going on, it's still good that you broke isolation and reached out. Even if I don't pick up.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. I agree with that mistake of if when we're tempted or when we struggle are times like that middle of the night, we can't think, oh, I can't call anyone because they're all sleeping. And I tell people this all the time. I say, call me and leave a message. I don't sleep with my phone by my bed, so I'm not going to hear it. I'm not going to wake up. But there is something really powerful about in that moment. I'm able to say to someone, here's what's going on, here's what I'm struggling with, and here's what I'm going to choose to do. When I hang up the phone, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to get up and leave this room. I'm going to go for a walk or go to bed or, you know, whatever the situation is. And as soon as I hang up, if I'm the one that made that call, I know that they're going to hear that message. And I'm now accountable to them because they're going to ask me, hey, thanks for. You know, maybe it's the next morning they call back, or maybe it's a group. A couple days later, they'll say, boy, I'd really appreciate you calling. How did it go? And if I know they're going to say, how did it go? My temptation or the desire to keep going down a path like that, it really just comes to a screeching halt. Because we realize, I don't want to have to look that guy in the eye and say, well, you know, it was terrible. I sat there and kept channel surfing and watched stuff I should like. And so it's no guarantee. I'm not saying, like, we're going to be perfect if we just make our phone calls. But it certainly does put a huge kind of barrier there that we go, okay, I know Joe's going to ask me. And it takes me kind of out of that fog where I'm listening, that nobody needs to know, nobody cares. I'm not going to tell anyone. It's like, well, I already told someone, and they do care, and they're going to ask. And it just can quickly change your mental perspective. So whatever time of day it is, you make that call, and you, if you need to you just leave that message because the knowledge that they know and that they'll ask can be a tremendous detriment to whatever you're facing.

Yep.

Yeah. I think I have one other thought on this question as well is that we can't approach this week like we did last week or next week. In other words, just because this is how we've been doing check in calls during normal time doesn't mean that that's how we should do them during vacation or summertime or pandemic or downtime or sick time. You know what I mean? Like, life is dynamic, health is dynamic. And so we also need to have an approach to our phone calls, our check ins that are dynamic. In other words, if you made three last week and that was good this week, you might have a lot of extra stress. The in laws might be in town, you know, like maybe your car broke down. Yeah, make more check in phone calls. It's not a failure to say I need more support this week. All you're doing is you're recognizing this is where I'm at with my health this week. And so this is what my check in phone calls need to look like. I would say to set a minimum amount though, to not go below a minimum, but not to set that as this is the number that I make every week. I've checked that box and I'm good. Because that's not how life is.

Well, and it's an easy way to shame yourself. Cause if you didn't make, if you made five this week and your normal standard is three and the next week you only made three, it's like, oh, I've had a worse week. No you haven't. Like you still hit your stride. Like give yourself a little bit of grace there.

Yeah, yeah. And I've had groups ask that. They've said, well we kind of have like just doing one longer phone call. Basically like a coffee meeting. Like guys will talk for 45 minutes and you know, isn't that better that they have one long one? And I'll say, you know what, there's definitely value in that longer meeting. But here's the danger. If they for some reason Ms. That one meeting, now they're down to zero. They're having no check ins. So I encourage them, yeah, if you like that one longer check in, have that be in addition to a couple of quick ones they make on other days during the week just so that there is some routine to it. There's some ongoing connection. And I think the challenge if a group's saying like, well, we just go with that one call or that one long check in. What people will tend to gravitate to is maybe a person in group they feel safest with, which is, I mean, that's nice. But it can really limit the group feeling like a community because like, well, that's Joe and Ted. And Joe and Ted, they only check in with each other and I don't really know Joe or Ted that well.

How about Bill and Ted? Let's keep Bill and Ted.

They're on their own. Excellent adventure and we're not a part of it.

Could be the bogus journey though.

Yeah, that's true. You're making three or four check ins. I'm getting to know my group and my group's getting to know me. And so that's a value. If you settling for one, you can really miss that. There's going to be a couple guys you maybe never call just because you don't know them that well and you're actually perpetuating that lack of connection. So I think that's, that's my encouragement if you're recommending less.

Yeah, yeah. That's kind of like saying, well, you know, I go on a two week vacation with my spouse every year and so we don't do dates during the rest of the year.

Yeah.

Oh cool. Let me know how that works out. Seriously.

Well, and you're missing out on the perspective of other people. Like you're missing out because one of the things for me is so many people get value from my answers and I don't even think that like I get so much value from other people's answers to questions or their perspectives. So it's like maybe I really like calling Jason because he's usually very understanding, but I don't really want to call Nick because man, he always asks hard questions. You need to call both because both perspectives are needed in the recovery journey.

Yeah, yeah.

So those are some really great tips of what to avoid. What on the, on the positive side, what are some other things you really encourage people to keep in mind? To have effective phone calls and check ins on a week to week basis.

This isn't easy for anyone.

Yeah.

I haven't known a single person, man or woman, that enters into a group and like they just immediately take to this because this is like so simple. We're asking you to be vulnerable intentionally with multiple people during a week. So just to remember, like if you're having a difficult time with this, so is everybody else and that's okay.

Yeah.

But to Continue pursuing that and. And have grace for yourself. Yeah, but this isn't easy for anyone. But then also to remember if you're not checking in, you're checking out. Like, if you're not pursuing this.

Boom, mic drop there. Write that quote down.

If you're not that. Like, if you're not intentionally moving towards relationship, then you're moving away from it.

Yeah.

And so, I mean. And you. That's easy to remember. If you're not checking in, you check it out.

I need you to say that like the big Lebowski. Can you do that real quick? Come on. Can do it.

It'll be extra. That'll be extra. I would have to say it like the stranger. Okay, you're not checking in. You're checking out, dude.

Okay, got it. Okay. So I think that scheduling them is really, really helpful for me. I tend to be super scatterbrained and just hopeful. And as I think I even shared with Nick recently, I heard someone say, oh, hope isn't a strategy. Like, hope is not a strategy. A strategy is a strategy. So for me, if I struggle to get to them, scheduling them, and I've done that, too, where when we do our commitment to change, there's a section that who are you gonna call? And it actually has a section where you can put a date that you'll call them. I've done that. I've said, hey, Joe, I'm gonna call you on Monday at this time. John, I'm gonna call you here this time. Like, I map it out and put that in my calendar because. And I said this last episode that what gets scheduled gets done. And so if I want something to get done, I need to put it on my calendar.

Yeah. And I think with that, I would totally agree about scheduling it if you're struggling to remember to do them. But also looking ahead at your week and asking the question, what are my points of greatest vulnerability? Where are the places I might likely get triggered? Because if you're honest with yourself, you can see patterns. You know, is it a heavy day at work that makes you want to numb out after work? Is it the weekend where maybe you're single and you feel bored and you've got nothing to do? Is it that your family's gonna be gone at certain times like we all have just seen? Where do I tend to run into those issues? And so making my phone call commitments around those times? So, for example, if I know, like, let's say a Thursday at work, I've got a big meeting, a lot of pressure doing A presentation. And I know that after a meeting like that, my desire to just be like, I did it and kind of let down my guard, I'm gonna be a little vulnerable. So I say, hey, on Thursday night, I'm gonna need to call, you know, so and so and make sure I check in. Or maybe it's your wife's going out of town on a retreat and, you know, Friday night at home alone, that's a danger zone. So I got to call someone from my group Friday night or, you know, better yet, plan to go out for pizza with them. You know, connect with someone. But if you can look at your week and just ask, where am I probably going to need to make a phone call and then include that as your schedule, it really helps. I know for me, I feel so proactive and it's like, man, I, I'm staying on top of this. And there's something. We all get kind of that boost of confidence or courage when we feel like we're staying ahead of our problems. We're. We're doing the right thing. That fuels more right things. So I think if you can approach your phone calls that way to be proactive and not just wait to say, well, well, when I'm getting down, then I'll make a phone call. I mean, obviously you can still make a phone call then. But if we're proactive to know where our danger zones might be and we call ahead of that, it's just going to help us out so much.

Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. If I have clients or we have clients that are having a difficult time establishing sobriety or a spouse who's like, really, really wounded and is just being triggered a lot, you know, by whatever, going to the grocery store or maybe there's an affair that happened in the small town they live in and every place they go is a reminder of it, then we always recommend more check ins, you know, kind of front loading their recovery with more check ins. And so exactly what you're saying, Nick. If you, if like first thing in the morning, you're triggered, then when you wake up in the morning, make a phone call and we can, we'll talk to people and go through what their typical day looks like. And if their typical day is like, they're triggered when they wake up, they're triggered when they get in their car, they're triggered when they get to work, they're triggered at lunch, they triggered when they leave, they trigger when they get home, and they're triggered when they go to bed. You know, it's like okay, well, let's start building some structure around that. And not that we're trying to make this just like, legalistic and overwhelming, but like, we, we. When people are really, really sick, they have to go to intensive care.

Right.

So there's times when we need to say, like, let's do more intentional stuff with this to at least get some momentum going in healing or in sobriety. And, you know, and then you can, you can back off. And, you know, then it's. It's back to maybe more of what a typical maintenance would look like. But. But before we can get to a maintenance level, there's a lot of work that has to get done. Yep.

So in an age where people are talking on their phones so little, there is still a huge benefit to actually use your phone the way it was intentionally created to actually call people. I know that's like tongue in cheek, but it's legit. Like, it started out as a phone and now it's a device, but it's still a phone. And phone calls, personally, I know for you guys too, you've experienced this. They tend to be the highlight of my week. They tend to be great conversations that create a lot of traction and a lot of relationship. And so a lot of the phone calls I make during the week tend to be highlights for me, and it's easy to forget that. So make sure you're making your phone calls and as we talked about, be honest and keep doing them. It's a great tool to put in your recovery toolkit. So, guys, thanks, Bob. Thanks for being with us. Appreciate it, man.

Yep.

Always awesome.

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I.