161 - Talking With Your Adult Kids

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hey, hey, hey people. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and you're listening to episode 161 of Pure Desire Podcast here. Joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stembo.

Is what brings us together today.

I wish people could see your face.

That you're making Blessed arrangement so slow a dream within a dweem.

So slow.

Love to love will follow you forever.

Oh my God.

Okay, I'll stop. Okay. True story. My 11 year old son is so into the Princess Bright, he's probably watched it half a dozen times in the last month.

Oh man.

And you do realize in that scene how slow the priest talks, which is.

Part of man and wife, part of.

What makes it so incredibly funny to me.

So it is, it is really funny. I don't know if your rendition and the length that it took to finish it, I don't know.

Ouch.

I. I appreciate it. Don't get me wrong, it just go cry now. Yeah. I also now know what you will look like without teeth. Okay, we've got another good episode for you real quick. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. We're on all the major platforms and if you give us a review, it helps people see the podcast. Follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter and Instagramureduredesirepdmi. And you can search us on YouTube. Pure Desire Ministries. The third thing is the Pure Desire Summit is coming next month. It is happening September 11 and 12. The first ever Pure Desire Summit is happening.

It is. And don't you want to say I was there. I was there when it started.

Wearing a mask and gloves and goggles.

Or watching on your computer, which we'd love to have you join us. You know, there is a name that boy, probably two years ago I hadn't even heard. And that is Dr. Kurt Thompson, but then ran across this book, the Soul of Shame. Had the opportunity to hear him at my denominations conference and wow. The insights he had to the human soul, the. The actual physical nature of our brain. He's both a doctor and a psychologist. He's brilliant. His insights into shame. You can't miss this and add that to all the great Pure Desire team and the stuff we're going to share. We hope people will join us so at National Friday off is September 11th. Join us for that Friday Saturday. Whether in the comfort of your own home wearing sweatpants or showing up in the room wearing a mask. We'd Love to have you be a part of this event with us.

Yep. And you can register@puredesire.org PD summit. Okay.

We.

I want to say in the last few months, we've had Dan and Jen on the podcast. Dan and Jen. Howie.

A couple times.

And they just. They've quickly become some of our favorite people. I mean, I know we've had some relationship with them outside, but just every time they come on the podcast, it just feels like it's very raw and real and insightful. And so we had them on to talk about, really, a recent experience they had where they talked to their adult kids about their story.

Yeah. And this is part of, you know, maybe the greater question as I'm walking through recovery, at what point do I start opening up to other people? And if I'm in it with my spouse and we're doing a lot of healing, there does become this dynamic where what's happening in us isn't widely known by others around us. And so, obviously, our kids become that next level of sharing to say, how do we really incorporate our story into our family and into our relationships? And we've done a podcast and talked quite a bit about sharing with kids in your home, which seems like, you know, that's pressing. It's the reality they're in. But for a lot of people, the question of all my adult kids, it's. We're not really around each other as much. Should we share? I just. I feel like this episode will answer a lot of those questions. And again, in the bigger picture, for those that don't have adult kids, I think it just gets into that, the whole topic of how powerful our story is and what can happen as we share with people around us. So even if you don't have kids, you're going to get a ton out of this episode as you hear what Dan and Jen have to share.

Yeah. And it is genuinely a good one, and we'll have a lot to take away from, so enjoy it. Dan and Jen, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you.

I'm not sure this won't be the last podcast we do.

Oh, my gosh.

I didn't know you were actually ready to start.

Yeah, I've been just sitting here waiting. It's funny because the first line I wrote is, we love having you guys on the podcast. Not right now.

I don't.

We kind of forget we're doing the podcast?

No. Okay. We do like having you on the podcast, even if it stresses the, you know, unhealthy side of the enneagram one that I have when I get stressed. But we're excited about what we do.

Get to talk about and just enjoy the party.

I'm trying, but you're making it harder. Okay, so probably one of the better intros we've had. No doubt. So today though, so something recently in you guys life, you guys had some conversations sharing your story with your adult kids. With, I believe, Dan, it was your adult kids, correct?

This particular instance. Yeah.

And so we wanted to talk about that because I know when we go to events, I've had tons of people ask that question during Q and A, I hear the question at the book table, like, what if I've already screwed my kid up? What if they're already adults and I'm starting to get healthy? What does it look like to share my story? And so that's what we want to talk about today.

How many kids do you guys have? Just for our listeners that maybe haven't heard your recent testimony podcast, just remind everyone this is an area of experience for you guys.

Okay, so we'll just. We have five kids. We did start when we were 12, and we had them all back to back.

That's just. We have five kids. Their ages are 20 to 25.

All right.

And we're a blended family. So that's. That explains why we did not have children at 12.

Right.

But they are very close in age. And so.

But it's cool that you guys are, like, in the thick of it. I mean, this is.

Yeah.

That. That whole transition time of they're not teens anymore. They're finding their way in the world, and your relationship with them has changed. And that's why I think today's conversation is so great.

Yeah, yeah. It's great having adult kids. No, I'm serious. I really.

It sounds nice now.

Like, we can dream.

Sounds like a dream. Yeah.

Yeah, it is.

So. So again, the reason why we're talking to you guys is, and I remember, like, you sent a text to some of us saying, we're about to have this conversation. And it was in preparation of the Stories of Healing episode that came out that we're gonna have this conversation with some of our kids. Would you pray about it? So let's kind of go back into that. And this is what I like is you guys tend to be people, we tend to be more raw with really going under the hood here. How did you even begin that conversation? Like, obviously the podcast kind of preceded it, like, okay, we need to have this conversation. But how did you go about starting beginning that conversation?

Well, I think before you have the conversation, for us, the way we've begun the conversation with all our kids is to be on a healing path. I mean, we didn't just, like, one day say, hey, guess what? Here's my deepest, darkest garbage, and here's how it's affected everyone. And then be like, I didn't even know I had previews of a movie.

Right, Exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, they all knew we'd been in Pure Desire for years. They heard us talking about things related to sex and related to betrayal and related to all the things that they were going to hear. They just hadn't heard details. They hadn't heard it in a format that we would consider disclosure for kids. So preparation or how this came up is. Look, we've been in a. In a process for a long time. Here's a step, and here's why it needs to happen now. And that's different for different kids. Like, it happened at a certain time for my children because there was a podcast coming out, and I didn't want them to click on a button and hear things that they weren't aware of. So that's how it. How we started.

So they knew there was a story, but they maybe didn't know the whole story. And so that, I think, does help create some context when they know there are things that have gone on, but finding the right timing or way to bring it up and. Yeah, how about for you, Jen?

It was. It was difficult with Dan's three kids because we had just hit COVID 19 and we had to do it over zoom. And that is not the way.

I didn't realize it was over zoom.

Yes, it had just hit. Everyone had been quarantined, and it was terrible, incredibly difficult. That is not how we planned to do it. We wanted to speak with them one on one so each of them could process with their dad. And so it definitely was not ideal. And so that alone really created a really awkward barrier as we all. I actually have pictures of it. And afterwards, Dan just threw his head into my lap and just was like, just so deflated afterwards because that's not how we wanted it to happen with his kids. They had been privy to some information via other family members throughout the year. So this gave us an opportunity to clarify some truths, what were truths, what were not. And with my kids, though, it looked very different because they were in the home full time while we went through this process. And so I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about what that looked like. So it Looked really different with each kid. And, and we were intentional about that. It needs to be. They're individuals and they needed as much as we could have an individual approach to telling our story.

So as you guys have had these conversations and you know, talked with other families and maybe adults who heard from their parents about their story, what. What kind of perspective do you have walking away from that, your experience and what you've heard from others of about the timing of this? Because I think that's a question a lot of people wonder, like, if we're starting a healing journey with pure desire, should we just tell our kids right away? Should we wait till we're down the road a ways and things are healthy and then, you know, kind of go back and start talking then is it somewhere in between? Like, what do you think is the right timing to start having these kind of conversations?

I never wanted to have this conversation.

Well, yeah, why would you?

I really. What I. When everything came out with Dan, my goal was to keep this conversation from happening. And I put that under the guise of protecting my children. I didn't want them to feel the impact of what their stepdad had done. I didn't want his kids to know what their father had done. I wanted all of the kids to love and adore their father the way I did. And so my goal initially was to not let any of the kids know this, ever. And through the pure desire process, we realize that our families and the. And that our generations aren't healed until we walk in truth and live in truth and speak in truth. So through that process that finally came to be. But initially, no, no one's going to know. I'm going to protect them. They're going to love him, but then they were going to love a false version of him and we were. We wouldn't be living in authenticity. Yeah.

And assuming you come to the conclusion that a. I do have to have this conversation and the question is when's the right time you're going to the. This answer will suck, but it depends. Yeah, I mean there's just no way to know everything. This is a really hard, hard topic in the sense that everybody's an individual. I think my daughter had a great quote that you can say. Yeah.

Yesterday I met coffee with our. With our 20 year old daughter Olivia. And you know, I kind of asked her some of these questions and you know, how much do you share? I think is the question that I had presented to her. She goes, read the room, Read the room. What are the facial expressions? What are people what are the receivers receiving? And ask questions and ask if you. You know, if they want you to continue. And she just really, in her wisdom and she has quite a bit. She just really spoke to me in that moment because I wish I would have known that sooner.

That, to me, is an. Is an indicator of you. Sharing is not just about you. It's about them as well. It's about the relationship. Because if it's just about you, then it's like, here's my verbal vomit. I'll let you take care of the mess and I'll back up and I'll leave the room where if you're reading the room and you're being aware of what's happening, you're trying to engage in that moment with them so that it benefits both you and the other person, the kid in this situation and try to bring some restoration to that relationship.

Yeah. And we literally asked our two sons who lived with us at the time, do you want to hear? And let them. At one point, one of them was saying, I don't want to know anything. So I'm not going to say, well.

Hey, it doesn't really matter. It's part of the process.

So I'm going to need you to sit down and listen to me.

I think he was probably in his teens when we started the process. And. And we wanted to share when. When we were ready and he wasn't ready. And so we respected that. And it probably. He was probably 18 at the time, and it really wasn't until he was probably 24 that he was really ready to hear. And my. My other son was probably. He was the first to hear because he was ready. I want to know. I want to know. And so we just based it off of that. How much do you want to know? Dan took them out to coffee. You can share that.

You may be skipping ahead, but I had a coffee metaphor. I said, I've got a story to tell you. And you can have several different versions of it. You can have light, medium, or dark roast. And light will be pretty surfacey. Medium and then dark if you want to hear, like it all. And I only, you know, here's the.

Here it is.

It's up to you or nothing. I knew at that time they at least wanted to hear. And so, yeah, so that's. You give them the option to hear the level of detail that they're comfortable with.

Yes.

Yeah. Well, I think when it comes to the motivation to do this, for a lot of people in the pure desire process, there's a point at which they realize this isn't just about their behavior or fixing their relationship, that it also involves their legacy. It involves what am I creating in my family history, what am I going to pass along which really can move someone towards. This isn't an if I share with my kids, it will be a when. Because I need to start passing on my healing. I need to pass on grace that maybe I didn't have for them when they were little kids or teenagers, that I didn't know how to be open about this. And so I created a taboo topic for them that we never really addressed.

And.

And there's so much health that comes of that and the perspective that I would share, having led, you know, hundreds of men in group. How many men in group talk about their fathers and wish they would have had these conversations with dads who never had the emotional or relational or just mental health to enter into this with their sons? And so I think if you're in your 50s, 60s, 70s, I don't really care how old you are, but if God has done something in your life, if you're finding traction and freedom and you have an incredible power, even if you think, oh, my son's not listening, or he's doing his own thing or God positioned you as a parent in their life and you will always hold the unique part in their heart and their soul. Even if. Even if externally they kind of act aloof or your relationship isn't great, there is something powerful to you just opening doors to. I want you to know the kind of stuff I was struggling with when you were a kid or when we were growing up, because I think it impacted our home. It impacted my ability to love you like I could have and my ability to be free to really be your dad or your mom. And as you can piece some of that together for them, they're going to begin to understand their story differently. So that's the perspective I like. This just isn't about you, like you said, Trevor, just the emotional vomit of. Well, it's part of the process, I guess. I got to disclose everything, but really seeing how can I mend or strengthen the relationships with my kids that were impacted? If you were struggling with addictive behavior or your marriage was in turmoil, your kids were impacted. And so this is kind of giving them the ability as adults to process what happened and hopefully to learn and grow and then for them to enter into their own story, because it gives them that open door to process with you what's going on in their life.

Yep. So let's Say we've started the conversation or at least primed it a little bit, and then we've decided on the timing. When we know that that's right. When we do share, what do we share?

So we had one son in the home full time when we started this process. And we had shared, hey, Dan. Dan's struggling with some pornography issues, and we want you to know that we're gonna. We're gonna get some help. And our counselors encouraged us to tell him, hey, we want you to watch this process. And I was really encouraged because he was gonna watch our healing. What I didn't anticipate was that there would be. That healing would actually be quite ugly and that he would experience the quite ugly. I was really difficult because at one point he came up to us and, you know, said, you know, you told me to watch your healing. I just want you to know that basically, I think you suck.

Yeah.

And we went to our counselors, and we went to our counselors, and they said, well, tell us what's going on. And I said, well, yeah, what you did kind of. Kind of sucks. We're like, oh, man. So telling them you side with him. So telling them, really, the timing was different, like I said, for each of them. And so we told them in bits and pieces. And I know that kind of sounds like staggered disclosure, maybe it's passive aggressive, but we did the best with what we had in the moment. And so for him, it was sharing, inviting him into watching the process because he was there full time with another son. It was just actually with the other four, it was, hey, we're a part of this program. So as far as timing starts, that's how timing started. It was in the beginning with a general idea that no one really talked about as far as timing with the individual disclosures. One said, son said, I want to know what's going on. And he came to us, and so we did that. At one point, Dan approached our another son and said, you know, I need. I want to tell you a story. Let me know when you're ready to hear it. And then with the other three, obviously the podcast coming out, the timing set up there.

So this has come, I feel like in the questions already has come up a little bit. That there is a difference between being honest about what's going on and a full disclosure.

Yes.

And that, you know, we talk about in group, that you at least want to have six months of sobriety, potentially have. Have some of that time really is so that you can create the narrative of what happened. You can connect those dots and be able to tell a full story rather than, this is what daddy or mommy did, you know, because I was unhealthy. No, this is what motivated the behavior. This is what perpetuated that behavior. This is why I couldn't break free from that behavior, that sort of thing. So I think what we're talking about is being honest is always important. You don't always have to fully disclose. And that's what you're talking about. Like, read the room. If your kid's not ready to hear that full disclosure, then you don't share that full disclosure. But it's still what you guys did. Invited them into, hey, we are in a process of getting healthy and we want you to watch this and we want you to know this is what's happening.

What I appreciate, appreciate about what Dan, how he did his disclosure with his kids is he said, this is, this is what took place in my life and this is the message I received. And they went on to the next thing. This is what took place in my life. This is the message I received. So it really wasn't about dumping his stuff on his kids as much as it was about, here's the messages I've received throughout my life. This is what I received. So you can know me and understand me better and maybe even relate.

Yeah, I think that's a great point. That when we think of sharing with our adult kids, maybe what comes to mind for people is the behaviors. Well, I've got to share the litany of my sins and boy, that's a lot of fun. I don't know how beneficial that is to anyone. I mean, in a marriage relationship that disclosure can be needed. So a spouse knows exactly what has happened. But with your adult kids, I think it's much more about how you have seen the false core beliefs you had that were driving your behavior. What you learned about your family of origin that created maybe areas of trauma and woundedness, what you've learned about your relationship with God. I mean, these are all things that any person, whatever they're struggling with, can start to interpret through their own grid of, oh, that's some of the things that are impacting me. And again, that's the value of sharing with our adult kids is they grew up with many of the same things that whatever impacted us and our family of origin and our past, we had a way of passing on to them, whether we intended to or not. And so it's not just sharing the nitty gritty of what you did. It's much more what you learned and what God revealed about what was going on under the surface. Because likely your kids are being driven by some of the exact same core messages because your family of origin, in a way, becomes their family of origin. And so helping them process will be so healthy for them in their own journey. Right.

And I think ultimately we're doing this. One of the reasons we did this was because we wanted them to see that we can deal with conflict differently. Now there's a lot of stuff that comes out of addiction, and if we are not willing to face it and show our kids, hey, stuff happens, but we can deal with it. We don't have to sweep it under the rug. We can talk about it in the open. There can be some ugly moments, but we're going to come back together.

It's essentially moving from living by our emotions and living by our values. We've switched gears, and we value transparency, we value honesty, we value communication and conflict resolution. We didn't value those things before. We'd say we did, but we didn't really value those things before, and now we do. And now through the healing process and the tools that we've gained, we can actually live by those values and hopefully extend those values to our children as well.

And you're modeling not numbing your emotions, but managing them.

Yes.

And I think that's a huge shift for a lot of people.

Totally. Yep.

So what are some tips or maybe advice that you guys would share if your kids ask questions and want to know more details, like how do you respond to questions that come up super vague.

Yes. Right.

Don't make eye contact.

Be super defensive.

Maybe leave the room, put it on them.

Oh, God. Shift blame. Yeah.

Those are all terrible ideas. Just like anything, you want to be honest and you want to read the room. What's appropriate for them to know and listen?

I really listen to the question rather than formulating your answer or feeling the need to be defensive. If you've done solid work before you walk into this scenario, you're in a position to listen. And that's another question I had asked Olivia yesterday, and that was her advice, too. Unfortunately, none of them really had questions. It was an awkward silence when it was all said and done, which is coming naturally.

You'd expect that.

Sure. So I imagine the questions, honestly, Nick, probably come later when they're contemplating and looking back at that experience.

Yeah. And I think if they have questions in the moment, in the conversation, you know, thanking them for that, like, I'm really glad you're asking that or I'm impressed the courage it might have taken to ask me that question. And yep, thanks for being willing to look into this a little more with me because it, it is a good way to gauge kind of where they are. If they have a lot of questions, want to know more, it's a great indication to go deeper and further. And if, if like you said, they're just kind of a. Wow, thanks for sharing. You know, don't press it because likely they're going to be thinking and processing and maybe over the next couple of days connecting some dots and ah, I wonder, you know, and that's where they may come back with when I was 17 or when this happened and trying to just figure out their own story and then being open to that. If this isn't just a one and done. I think of it, it's opening a door to a room that now is free for anyone to walk into. This is a safe area that we can walk into and talk about. It doesn't have to be a secret or a closed door anymore.

I think with that, you have to make sure that the door, you remind them the door is open. So it's like in the moment when you approach that conversation, we're going to share some stuff. You are free to ask questions, but then if you don't ever say that again in the weeks or months to come, reminding them that they can ask. Ask you questions, then it might feel like it's kind of a closed door and that room is now locked and sealed and we've burned that house down.

Yeah.

And that's not the case. You want to make sure they know the door is always open.

That's good. That's good. You know, actually, I think back to it, I'd be curious as to how you guys would handle this. It was difficult.

Poorly. Is that. Oh, is that too quick?

Sorry.

Well, one of our kids said, I'm afraid of turning out like you. And I really loved the honesty in that moment because it was real.

I didn't, I did not like that.

Yeah. Well, it was addressed to you, so I can see why. Yeah, I can see why.

Yeah.

And to be perfectly honest, we haven't really fully unpacked that yet. And.

Yeah.

But I was. Do you remember how you responded?

No.

No, I didn't think so.

Tears?

A little bit. He. But Dan, Dan was so gracious in that moment. He goes, I can see why you wouldn't want to turn out like me. But. But let me assure you that you don't have to have you know, and then he actually went in. Yeah. And he followed up with, have you ever heard of epigenetics? And talking about how genes can be turned off and that there is hope and that God rewires the brain. And really that, that, that question I think that everyone probably dreads ended up became becoming a conversation starter to, you don't have to end up anyway, let me just refute that lie with the truth. And the truth is that God will set you free. And the other truth is God has set me free. And I can help you do that if you, if you engage and walk with me through that process. And that is, we are still at the very beginning of those stages with that child of ours.

Yeah. I tell you what comes to mind for me is a number of men that sat in my office and said, you know, I will never be like my dad. And, and they have this very, like, push it away, avoid it. Like, I'm moving on. And it's. And I sit there going, man, you cannot see how in avoiding being like your dad, you're becoming exactly like your dad. And they had some very negative examples, but. But they weren't addressing the very things inside of them that probably were the things that created these negative patterns in their dad. And so I think there, there is that reality to try to help our kids. See, we. Part of why we're sharing is because we want you to have better relationships, we want you to have better health. We don't want you to have to go through years of struggle or addiction or pain to get to where we're at, because we're in a much better place. We hope you can avoid all of that.

Right.

But the key is in trying to avoid it, you'll actually probably replicate it. So I think a great way to respond to something. Glad to say, yeah, that's our hope, too. But let's look at why we ended up here so that maybe you don't take that same path. Because in just avoiding it and trying to think about, well, I'm just not going to be that very often we tend to replicate the exact same thing that we're trying to avoid.

Yeah. So this question is a little bit of a left turn in some ways, but I think it's important because right now we're talking kind of practical what that's looking like in the conversation. But. And I feel like this is potentially an answer that will allow people to kind of see into your own heart. What was that experience like? Over zoom, not personal, not in the room. Like, let's talk about the emotions that you experienced leading up to it, and then in the moment and now since past. What is that kind of experience been like for you guys?

Well, so we've done it. I've done it a couple different ways. So there was one son who wanted to know everything, and all I had to do was offer, and he was. He jumped right on it. I had another son who was like, okay, I think I'm ready now.

Were those different for you?

Those.

Those were.

A little different. I knew going in the level of desire, one really wanted to know. One was like, yeah, I'm open to knowing. But they were both good. The zoom one was difficult because it felt. I don't know if I say rushed, but there was a deadline to it. And it was just kind of like, family meeting, we're going to get this done. And so, you know, they're all very different. So the. So in some cases, I felt great because I knew this was exactly what they needed and I knew it would bring benefit. And in some, especially the last one, I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen. I know it's ultimately good, and I know it is a value, but there's probably going to be some question marks and some emotions that I'm not prepared for and don't really want to feel, and I have no idea how it's going to affect them. And I guess we're just going to trust God, which is not a bad thing.

Were you afraid that you'd experience rejection from any of the kids?

Yeah, in the moment, thankfully, I don't believe that I would experience rejection overall. I truly believe after this many years of work that it's not a death sentence that I'm not going to be. It's not going to be the end.

I think that's because you experience grace from your wife, and then you knew that sharing ultimately can bring healing.

Wow.

Well, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna guess that, like, your kids have seen it and you have experienced it, both of you. The change that's happened. So it's like, I know I'm not that person, and I'm revealing stuff that the old version of me did that I don't do anymore. And so it's like, it's something that's kind of been, you know, the tether has been clipped, like we're not there anymore.

Yeah.

Like, it's still part of my past, but I'm not the same guy.

Well, sure. And they have seen a big change. Like you said at the beginning it wasn't pretty whatsoever. And more and more, it becomes evident, you know, so we know that they see a difference, you know, just in the way we talk, the way we interact, things like that. It's like, wow, that's night and day. If they sit back and think about it and they come to us for different things now.

They do. They come to us for the deeper stuff, I think.

Yep.

No, I know. I will say this much. I wasn't involved in the disclosure to my two kids. That had happened a little while ago when Dan had taken them out to coffee. But I was a part of the disclosure with his children. Um, I wanted them to know that I supported him. And so I sat with him through that disclosure process to support everyone in the room. So I don't know how my two kids responded, but his three were so gracious. Dad, we love you. We knew most of this stuff already. Okay, let's. Let's just go there for a second. They know, right? You know, even kids know they know something.

They know something, right?

And as they grow in maturity, which our kids have, they really start putting puzzle pieces together. So I don't think any of it was really a shocker for them too much. Um, but to their credit, God had already been preparing their hearts in some ways, and they were so gracious and kind to Dan. Dad, we love you. We don't hold this against you. We forgive you. And so there. There was that possibility of rejection, at least for a short period of time, or hurt. And yet God. God was all over it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think every time we tell our story, it's a part of facing the voice of shame and the emotion of fear that can come with that sense of. I don't know how they'll respond. And I think if we choose not to disclose to our adult kids, there's a very high possibility that that voice of shame, that emotion of fear, stay in these pockets in our lives. Like, well, they don't really know my whole story. And if they did, how would they react? And I don't know. Even if we think. I think we'd work through it and they'd be okay. But that unknowing can leave us trapped in some of those negative emotions. And it's interesting. The other day I was playing golf with a friend of mine, but then another guy I've never met, and, you know, in the course of conversation, what do you do? Where do you work? Pure desire. And sooner or later, they'll get around to the question you got nine holes and a couple hours. Well, how did you end up working at Pure Desire? And I found myself just telling the story of my struggle and going through counseling and the healing and looking back on it, I realized it did not bother me at all. I mean, this is a total stranger that I'm like, well, here's my story. And I told that as casually as if I was talking about the Seattle Seahawks draft picks. It was just. It's so a part of my story. And I think that is. That's not a credit to me. That's just a course of. Over the years, I've talked with my parents, I've talked with my kids. I've talked with my small group. I've talked like it's just a part of my story. And so there's no shame in opening that door. And I think that's something we're looking for with our adult kids, is it is important for us to open those doors, make sure that we're not living in shame. And maybe in the moment they don't react well, maybe they don't even seem to appreciate that we shared. At least we have faced that voice of fear and shame and now can begin to work through and process it. That there's just not this place of, like, well, these people know my story, but all these people don't. And I don't know how they would all react if they knew my story. So the more that the people around us know our story and they're all going to be in different places of how well they've accepted it or how they're processing it, but for us, the way it releases the shame and the fear I think is so significant.

Agreed. Yeah.

I would say my guess is it's more difficult to share with your family and people who know you than it is with complete strangers. Like, and so that stays like. Right. And that's even more reason to invest, for sure.

But what a great message to say ultimately, say, look, I was doing all these things, but I wasn't doing it other than I was trying to not feel something. I was trying to cover up another emotion. I was trying to avoid something else. This is just the avenue it took. And look at the havoc it wreaked on my life and your life's and Jen's life. So when you're feeling like you don't want to deal with something or if you see behavior that you don't like, you now know, hey, there's a way to handle it. There's an answer. I can go to my parents, they at least understand something like this. My dad can speak into something of my life and I just really appreciate that. And I've seen that happen on multiple occasions where we've had the opportunity to really say, you know, that's really not what you're dealing with. There's what else is. What else is going on in your life.

Yeah. That's so cool. So as you guys look back at these conversations with your kids over the years and stories of other couples, you know, what are some things you would encourage people to avoid when having these conversations?

Assumptions. Assuming that they. What they know or what they don't know, assuming how they'll respond. That's probably the first thing I would. Or assuming that it's going to turn out poorly. I, as a, as a woman and as a rescuer, I was, I will admit that being in that zoom session, part of me really wanted to rescue. Assuming that I assumed that things needed to be rescued and I didn't need to rescue. God was already in it. He was rescuing it. And we have this idea that when things are hard that we need to come in and take control and make things better. So that was the wrong assumption that I had in that moment.

Yeah, avoid, I guess, motivation. The wrong motivation to do it. It's not just to check the box off because it's part of the process. It's. My motivation is to heal my family and myself and be known. To be fully known and fully loved. And if that's what we're after, that's part of it. And that goes both ways.

Think. Avoiding details too. Yeah, like so, you know, content that just really is not relevant to the message that we are sharing with our children. They don't need to know his arousal template. They don't need to know how awful I was to him. Actually, I have shared with them a little bit how awful I was to him in the process.

But next episode, be awful to your husband.

But yeah, just. Yeah, yeah.

I think of some basic, you know, principles just to the whole pure desire process. And why, like you talked about disclosure, we encourage people having six months of sobriety because you want to be in an emotionally healthy place that you're not still blaming your spouse or blaming your parents. Like, well, you know, your dad, he was always working and so what choice do I have? Well, your mom was never around. You know, if that's going to be your story, like you could actually do more damage than good because you're processing some raw stuff and blame shifting and that's not Healthy. So we just. We want to avoid putting it on someone else being too dismissive of, well, that was no big deal. Or that part didn't matter, you know, so. So processing some of those things. And I had another great thing, but escape escaped my mind.

So it was probably. Well, it was. I'm sure it was good. And I'm sure you'll remember it. I think that idea that you talked about, Nick, of having, you know, opening that door and this room is always open. I think closing that door is probably the worst thing you could do.

Yeah.

Because a couple different things in my mind, one, it makes the topic something that we kind of, like, touched on, which maybe be that we checked that box, we had that conversation, and then now we can't engage in that conversation anymore. And it makes the parent feel like they're not a safe person for me as a kid to come talk to. Like, okay, we've checked that box, and, you know, mom and dad feel better. But what if I'm struggling and I have more questions to try to explore my own. My own story. But then also, if we don't leave that door open, I think that we run the risk of really modeling poorly what it looks like to grow and develop as a human being. Because if we're willing to have difficult questions and to engage in those hard conversations, what it does is it shows that courage is not having no fear. Courage is actually doing stuff we're still afraid of. And then also setting that trajectory for, hey, when you build the house of your family, this room needs to be one you include in your house, too.

Yes.

And setting that idea, that example. So I think that modeling is really important in that.

Yeah. And pushing the door open too fast, you know. You know, running in and knocking down a door, really being respectful of timing that and asking your kids what do they want to know and how much they want to know. We had done that, quite honestly, with one of our kids. And what it ended up communicating to him is that we think he shared with us later. You think I have a problem? You think I need help? We had communicated the very opposite. What we were trying to communicate was this open door policy. But instead what we had done was we knocked down that door and essentially shamed him in that process. So I definitely have regrets over that. That has since healed through this process. But I do have deep regret over that because it, you know, it spoke a lie into his life, a projected lie that something's wrong with you and this has to be talked about. And it wasn't Even about him. It was. Or. Or maybe we'll go back to what Dan said. What was her motivation at the time? If the motivation was to fix him, then maybe that's the message that came across. But if the motivation was to share with you who I am, then that's a whole. That creates a whole different message.

Yeah. Yeah. It feels like you were trying to. Like, at that point, what's coming to mind is like, you're pushing your kid to try to think something you want them to think.

Yes.

Rather than opening a door and creating an environment that later they could come have that conversation with you.

But unfortunately, we will always do something wrong. It's just not a. It's too complicated.

Good reminder.

The. What we did was. We just didn't end it like what you were saying. We blew it in many ways over the years, but we didn't stop having the conversation. We didn't close it off, and we kept working on our own healing. I'm not gonna hit the table anymore. So the fact that he received that message, if that had been it and that was the last time we talked about it, he would have that message, but we didn't. We still had open dialogue between ourselves in front of our kids about how we were healing, about our struggles, about the way we handle conflict, all those things. So he constantly heard those messages. We constantly engaged with him. And God's faithful, and he knows how to send the message that they need.

Let me say something to both of you guys about that, because I think that that's evidence of you guys continuing to move forward in your own healing, that even though you've maybe found healing in this specific area doesn't mean that you're done. So you can't have those ongoing conversations if you're just like, I'm good. I've solved that problem. Like, we don't need to develop anymore. But if you're continuing to develop that you have that opportunity to be like, hey, come alongside me. Watch me as I'm growing, as I'm developing, and you can learn how to do it, too. So I commend you guys for continuing to do that. Even though this has been solved in your lives, it's still something that you are moving forward in.

Yeah, well, we're still married, so there's still plenty of work to be done.

That'll be the next next episode. Okay, so let's wrap it up here. I think that anybody listening will probably get a sense of why this is important to have these conversations, but there still may be some People that are like, I just don't understand. I, I've already gone through the process. I'm healthy now. Why do I have to open that wound again? Why do I have to re. Engage with these difficult topics? And so for that person, that individual, why would we say this is such an important piece to have conversations with our adult kids?

I think I would ask why. Why is there such a struggle to do it? To me, that's an indicator that, that I need to dive a little bit deeper and go a little bit deeper. Because for Dan and I, we were there. I remember. I do not, I don't want this day to ever come. We intended it for it never to come and that we would heal and just kind of leave that piece out. But what changed for us in this healing process was when shame is removed, it changes everything. And when you're ready to be fully known and when you're ready to be fully known by those that are closest to you, you almost can't sit on it anymore. So for me, I totally get. I actually had this conversation the other day, like, well, why share it? That's. You're just, you're. What if you don't have that kind of relationship with your kid, why would you even share that? Well, maybe, maybe it looks different for everyone. It does look different for everyone. But, but the reality is I would go back to, why am I not willing to. Why do I not want to? Because that to me is an indicator that some more work needs to be done. And I'm not saying that everyone has to do it the way we did it. It doesn't have to. Look, I mean, if you don't have that type of relationship, there are some fathers and sons that haven't spoken in years or brothers that haven't spoken in years. And so the way you approach that relationship is going to be very different depending on where you are currently relating with one another.

Yeah, I agree. I just think it's. If we're resistant, what's our, what's our motivation to not share? Are we self protecting or are we protecting our kids? And if we're trying, if we're saying we're protecting our kids, which I will say I did, I used that excuse to put it off way longer than it needed to be. You know, that was, it was a great way to justify not risking. So.

But then again, not everybody's safe.

Nope. No.

To share a story with.

Yeah.

I think for a lot of people, what they tell themselves is, well, the past is in the past. Let's just leave it there. There's no point. And I would say, you know, the past is in the past for you because you've had the opportunity to deal with it. But not your kids. They haven't had the opportunity to understand what was happening in the home they grew up in. And so that past is still their present reality. It's still impacting them. And so in all likelihood, you were not able as an adult because of your struggles or what your marriage was going through. You were not able to sexually disciple your kids into health and maturity. You were not having the kind of conversations you know you could have. You were not as emotionally available to your children as you know you would like to have been. And they don't know or understand why unless you're willing to have these hard conversations and open that door and actually go and deal with the past so that then for your kids also, they could say, I'm glad the past is in the past. Now let's figure out how we can move forward from here. But until you give them the dignity of that conversation, it's still impacting them. It's still their reality. And that family of origin dynamic for them probably won't change much unless you, as the parent, lead the way to say, could we talk about the home you grew up in and the kind of stuff I was struggling with, because I know it impacted you as a kid and it wasn't fair. And I want you to hear from me my heart and my apology and see how we can grow now. Because, yeah, we can't change the past. So in that sense, the past is the past, but we can make a huge difference in the present emotional, spiritual health of our children by entering into these kind of conversations.

Yep.

I know we might be short on time, but I'm just curious as to what suggestion you would have for someone who's not in a current speaking relationship with their children.

What comes to mind for me is to write a letter. I think that that's something that you can do, or, I mean, an email or whatever, but I think that's something where you can engage in the actual sharing and then send it. And if they choose to listen to it, then so be it.

Yeah. I would just suspect that in some ways the current dysfunction that's led to not speaking is connected to the dysfunction of the home that involved the sexual addiction of one spouse and the avoidance or the anger of the other spouse. And in a very humble way, to try to have that conversation if it's totally not speaking, maybe through letter but just again, taking that approach of, I want to be humble and honest and share with you the reality of our home as you grew up and recognize the way it probably impacted our relationship in a negative way. And I want to say I'm sorry. And if that opens the door, then great. But at least, I mean, if you're not speaking, the other side is, well, what's the worst that could happen? They're gonna keep not speaking to you. So make a step into that honesty and vulnerability, because that's the other thing I've just seen in relationship after relationship. Vulnerability that's partnered with truth almost always leads to people leaning in together, not walking away. That's close ability and truth. Good things happen.

Yeah. And they may not happen right away, but. But we do see over time that that can. And usually I feel like usually does happen, for sure. The only thing I would add to this question is that when you think about it, why do we even need to have this conversation? I've already gotten healthy. It's not about you. I think that that's the biggest thing, you sharing and doing this. If you've already gotten healthy and you processed it with a community, that was for you sharing it, sure, you'll get some benefit, but it's not for you. It's for your kids and the legacy you're leaving and the culture you're trying to create. So that's why I believe it's so important to have this conversation.

Well, and I would kind of jump into that thought too, of how healthy are you really if there's this great health in your life people close to you don't even know about? Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Let's just leave that mic on the table and we'll just end there. Because that. It's true. 100%. Dan, Jen, we appreciate you guys, enjoy in general, but then this is really fresh, you know, for you guys. And so thanks for being on with us.

Thanks for having us.

Yeah.

It is definitely important to have conversations with your adult kids. And I love the what Olivia said. Read the room. Read the room. Identify what is going to help your relationship and your kids best. But know that this conversation is necessary to, yes, your health, but also the legacy you're creating in your home. So wherever you're at on your journey, Parents desire is here to help give you the road map to healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. It's free. Share with your friends and family, write a review, help others find the podcast. Lastly, never stop being health.