162 - Student Groups

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Happy day to you people. I am your host, Trevor Windsor and you are listening to episode 162 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

The only thing we have to fear is, is fear itself. That was my best like radio president voice impersonation.

Was that John F. Kennedy?

I think it was, yeah.

I mean that's.

It would make sense.

The.

I didn't research this one.

The accent. I don't know if you guys ever.

I was trying to picture that, you know, like when it's black and white footage and there's kind of that crackly microphone. There's something about that era of speeches that just, they sounded so much more significant. You know, you listen to our political speeches now and it's just, I don't know, it doesn't carry the weight that when you heard like Roosevelt talk or you heard Kennedy, like man, their speeches just. There was power behind them.

Not to make this political at all because we're trying not to. But I think we romanticize the past. I think LeBron James right now is a better basketball player all around than Michael Jordan was. But. And this is me.

I'm not even sure where that came from.

I'm just saying we romanticize older players. Okay, so, so anyways, before we talk about this actually really good episode that we have for you, a couple quick things. First, subscribe to the podcast. If you haven't, please do it. You can find us on all the major platforms and give us a review. Those mean a lot to us and it also helps other people find the podcast. You also can follow us on social media. Keep up with us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Your DesirePDMI if you like to consume video content. The full. We don't actually have full episodes anymore, but we do have clips of these episodes as well up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries.

Bite sized amounts of goodness.

That's right, bite sized content. Okay, so that's all we have for you. Before we get into this episode, we sat down with Ashley Jamison, our international women's groups coordinator and we talked about student groups.

Yeah, I think the motive behind this is in going back to my intro. You know, there can be a lot of fear around. Oh my gosh, what am I do about my kids? What about our students? I mean, if, if I'm seeing what I'm seeing, what are they exposed to? And the World has changed since I was a student and trying to give some, some practical guidance and foundations for how could you start groups through your church and really create a culture where this isn't something. We wait until a person's an adult and really in a difficult relationship situation, they've messed up a marriage and then we help them. It's looking at that front end of life to say, how could we help someone very early on when there's just patterns are starting to emerge or there's exposure where they're seeing stuff they don't know what to do with. Like, how could we create healthy groups for them? And we don't need to let fear because the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. We don't need to let fear keep us from getting engaged because we want to encourage listeners to say, could this be something? God uses you to make a difference in the lives of students around you.

Yeah. And Ashley has led these groups, helps churches establish these groups all the time. And so her perspective is amazing. So enjoy the episode. It's a good one. Ashley, thank you for coming back. Thank you for hanging with us. Thank you for being here.

I am glad to be here. Glad to be back. Glad to hang.

You should tell your voice that you're going to be here. I feel like it's really agreeing with you. But okay, so today, and just so everyone is aware as we're starting this, the COVID 19 stuff, this is early on, I guess ish as we're recording this. So we are practicing social distancing by Ashley being in the online form. So but today we really. This is something we haven't talked a lot about on the podcast, but we talk about groups in general all the time. We have groups for students and we want to press into what that looks like. So, Ashley, you have experience leading these groups and helping your church and other churches start these groups. And so feel free to carry the whole episode today as you do it. But let's just jump in. For students specifically, what group material do we have?

We have behind the mask for young ladies 14 to 21 ish and top gun for young men around the same age range. And then we also have Living Free for College age men. And so those are really great resources that are specifically for younger people. Of course you hear me talk about on other episodes that several of our resources like the Conquer series or other things can be used with teens, but these were specifically designed to be used in a group setting with teens.

And it's the kind of conversation we have At a lot of events and as people, you know, email in or call, you know, what do we do for our kids? What do we do about our teens? And I think sometimes they. They might be looking for, unfortunately, a quick solution like, how do I just make this go away?

Or I.

They.

They kind of have that deer in the headlights look. And sometimes it may be. And even the whole point of this episode, that idea of, like, boy, a group, is that really necessary? Like, couldn't I just get them to read a book? I mean, I mean, honestly, how helpful is just reading a book been for any of us, let alone for our teenage kids? And so it's seeing that the need for community, the need for a safe place to talk and be open and be real about what's going on in our lives. That's why we do groups. And so I try to encourage people that in some ways, the material itself is almost secondary to your commitment to help and the relationship that you're willing to build. Because if that's not where you're at, you probably aren't going to benefit much from trying to have a group of teens go through these workbooks. But if God has put it on your heart to say, man, I remember what it was like. I didn't have any tools. I didn't have anyone helping me. I didn't have anyone around me that even had direction. And so I want to become that for others, then God could really use you and your story and your passion. And then the workbooks and the material just become a structure on which to build that. And there's incredible stuff in there, but I just start there about, you've got to be willing to kind of walk this past with path with them. Because if. If we're at a mindset as a leader or parent, just we want to throw a tool at our kids and have it fix them, that didn't work in our lives, and it's not really going to work in theirs either. And so that's why we say engage in a process and really consider how can I gather students together and encourage them to take this journey together.

Well, and too, like, if you think about it, I was so. I was a youth pastor for a few years. You already have structures or time allotted for hanging out with students. Like, for me, every single week, I spent time with four of my students directly, and I encouraged all my leaders to do the same thing, like pick students of the same gender and spend time together as a group each week, whether it's texting or whatever. I mean, you're sending posts back and forth, whatever you want to do or in person. So I think in reality, we think about starting groups and it's like, I don't know if we actually have the infrastructure for that. It's like, well, actually, you already do it. This is just the content to help facilitate content conversations. So really we're like, basically giving you something to plug and play. And so I think that this is something that a lot of youth pastors, or maybe even, you know, elders and lead pastors of churches can feel like. I don't really know if this is something we can do, but you're actually more set up for it than maybe you thought.

Yeah, it really is. When we implemented it at our church, the girls that I took through it, we just had them come an hour early on the night. They were already doing youth group so that they still could attend their regular small groups. And it worked out really well. They just showed up an hour early. We did our group, and then they went to the normal youth service. And then at other times, we've just done it during youth service when they've broken up into their small groups, then the ones who wanted to go through behind the mask would do that.

Yeah. So there are a lot of different methods or ways that we can go about doing this. When the groups meet in conjunction with youth group or a different night or could be at a leader's home, I mean, there's just a lot of things that could change there. But for a lot of people, Ashley, they're maybe thinking, how do I get a teen or a student interested in groups like this? I mean, that could be a challenge to find people who are motivated. So in your experience and as you've worked with churches, what have you seen be effective in helping get these groups started among students?

The same thing that works for adults, that you need to share your story. You need to have somebody who's willing to be open about their struggles. As a teen first, I. I'm. I know that I've told people before that as scary as it can be to be the youth leader and question, you know, like, how much do they know? Are we going to. It's the same thing parents ask, are we going to give them the okay? Because they know we've done these things. It's that struggle that adults have and how much to share with younger people. But when I started groups at our church, and even just with my teenagers and using different resources to kind of go through things with their friends, it always starts with my husband or I Or both of us sharing part of our story. And then. And then they open up. Like you said, Nick, it's really just a conversation starter. It's hard enough to get kids to stick on task, but when you can just have something that opens the conversation, they'll direct it where really it needs to go. And the questions they're having, because the conversation that comes up are the things they're thinking about and wanting to know about. And so I started by just sharing my testimony from when I was a younger kid. Some of the sexual curiosities that I had and instances and the rape. And then there's how that led me down to seeking attention in the wrong ways. And because that was in my past, I was able to say what struggles and, you know, bad roads that led me down, and then how I finally was slapped in the face with needing to change and what that looks like now. And so just being able to share that with kids. I think I had 40 girls come up to me after that first time, wanting to go through my group, that I could take 10. And that was just the girls. I had a ton of boys come up as well and say that they need help. They've been looking at porn. Boys and girls look at porn, struggle with masturbation, all of them. And that was really just interesting. The counselors at our church would say, well, how did you get the teens to open up and want to go through something like this? We've tried sex education type things before and we can't get the kids to open up. And I said, well, if you share your story, then they're going to open up to you because they'll know you understand. And that was the key difference.

Yeah.

And the reason why that works, and I'm leaning on my experience here, but the reason why that works is because when you tell a student to do something, they already get that at school, they already get that at home. So I learned. Like, I can tell you a quick story. The first. When I first became a youth pastor, the first message I was prepared to teach on a midweek I got up there, I was ready to literally, like, exhort scripture or like, exegete scripture and exhort these kids. I'm literally going to save everybody in the room. And then I just felt like this little voice of the Holy Spirit saying, you need to not talk at them, you need to talk with them. And from then on, literally my communication style and the way that I taught changed completely. And I think that that's how we need to approach this stuff too. Is it needs to be something. You're sharing your story as you're saying, Ashley, and sharing the benefits that you've seen. And not in a way where you're trying to manipulate or convince them to do it, but you're basically showing them a better way to use Rodney Wright's language. Like we're showing them the better way for their sexuality, for this area of life that God has gifted us with and using that kind of language. Because I've heard your story a ton, Ashley, and you continually say you got the messages of like, don't do this, it's bad. If you have done it, it's bad. You can't undo it. In reality, we should be using positive language to encourage anybody, and specifically students, what it looks like to pursue sexual health rather than, don't do this, don't do this. Because, I mean, I can tell you right now, I've got a three year old at home, I tell him to not do something, the first thing he wants to do. You know what, scratch that, I'm 32. You tell me not to do something, I'm like, meh, I feel like I want to do it now. So I think it's that same thing. We're inviting them into a conversation and showing them a better way and allowing the Lord to be the one who pushes them into pursuing their health.

Yeah, it is. It's very, very similar to our adult groups that we've talked about. You can't make someone want to change. And if you're the one carrying the ball for their change or trying to be responsible for them, it's just not going to work. And so when we're working with students and teenagers to try to tell them, well, we, we've got a group for all you bad kids are doing bad things and you better shape up. And we got this for you to fix. You like, well, who wants to do that? I mean, and if, if someone is, you know, a student who is struggling, but they're not ready to face it or deal with it, you know, telling them or shaming them for not facing it isn't going to make them more willing. And so I love what you're saying, Ashley, that in sharing your story, you become a safe person and you help create a safe environment that says, hey, this is a reality of our world, here's what it did in my life. And if you're in a place where you're seeing the negative effects of this, you're feeling the brokenness, you're feeling the shame or the sense of that's not the person I want to be. That's not who God's called me to be. That's not what his word says, and I don't want it in my life. Then you're presenting them an option to say, there's a different way and a better way. And it might take a little bit of conversation and some work to get there, but it's possible. And then allowing them to take that step, allowing them to express, hey, I'm interested, I'd like to know more about that. Because then as they initiate, as they express that interest, they're owning their own change. They're being responsible for what they need to be responsible for. And yeah, we're here to help, we're here to guide them. But if we try to take ownership for them, just like for adults, it's not going to work at all. So we've got to be mindful of that.

Yeah, and it's funny too, because you think about if a student comes up to you and says, so I am struggling with this, what not to do would be like, ah, I know you're the person I had in mind when I was putting this presentation together, having this conversation, like how we respond in the moment when a student reaches out or reaches up for help and says, hey, I need help in this area, how we respond is really, really important. And that's what's so disarming about telling your story, is you're not talking at them, you're sharing your thing, your story with them. So let's kind of. Cause this is. I mean, especially when you get into groups in general, one of the first questions, especially even for adults, is like, who's going to lead these groups? And so for student groups, is this student led? Is this adult led, leader led? How do we do that?

Yeah, well, you do probably want a leader who's fairly healthy. And I say fairly because we all know that none of us are all the way healthy. It's a spectrum. Yeah, it's a spectrum. But you know, an adult that's fairly healthy, whether it's the leader or the parent, or even just somebody who's been through seven pillars or betrayal and beyond or unraveled, and then wants to do something different or give back in a different way, they can go in and leave. For teens, although I will say that I've had some groups that have finished with a adult leader who doesn't have to have it all together. In my experience, most leaders have never led a group like this, but they were willing to Share their story from being a teenager and be open as they walk the kids through. But then I've seen some of the older kids who have gone through it and found some traction and got freedom. They ended up co leading with the adult and it was really good growing experience for them because they. The same thing we teach in the adult groups, they got to then pass it on to some of the younger people in their journey, whether they're same age or not. They were on the front end and they were able to pass along their knowledge. And you can just see them thrive in sharing their story in that way and giving hope to other kids. So you don't have to go through certification or anything like that. If you're willing to lead and follow the guidelines and be honest about your story, that's the biggest thing I would, I caution when I get a leader that calls me or a parent that calls and says, you know, I never did anything like this. I just, you know, our world is so different and I, I can't connect with this at all. You know, my husband and I waited or my wife and I waited and, and I, I know that that may be the case, but we were all teenagers and teenagers are awkward and messy and, you know, they have their stuff, they're navigating as they're growing into adults and their brains are changing. So we all have something that we can be honest about with a struggle with the teenagers. And I think that's key, that if you're going to be a leader, that whole not talking down, but being open about some struggles that you had as a teenager as well.

Yeah, it's really exciting if you get to the point where these can be pure led because you've got people that are in the same season of life leading and helping one another. And that's really exciting. And that's maybe not going to happen quickly, but if you can get there, that's a tremendous place to be. But we would recommend that any adult, anyone over the age of 18, that is going to engage these groups, they need to go through the same vetting process that your church would have for anyone working with minors. We do want to be mindful of the potential legal situations that can come up with adults working with minors. And so make sure that person's background checked and that the church has affirmed them as a leader for kids because teens start to look like young adults and young men and young women. But if they're under 18, they're still in that minor category. And we want to be just aware of Those issues as well.

Yeah, so as I'm thinking about it too, it's just, I think it's important that. Because I've seen this even at my church right now where we've got students who are juniors and seniors who've gone through group and are now helping, having conversations with middle schoolers or people who are freshmen and sophomore. But there still is that covering of a leader, whether that's the pastor or whether that's one of the coordinators or whatever it may be, whatever the positions are. But someone who's in a leadership role in the ministry still has oversight with that or is present. And I think that that's what I would encourage that. Even if you're allowing maybe some of the older students to help, some of the younger students in this area always have a youth leader present who is a part, who's done some work obviously, but is a part of that group meeting as well. Because it can be really weird if you open the floodgates. Sometimes you get way more than you expected. And I don't know if a 17 or 18 year old who's processing their own stuff can just be like, oh yeah, so hear this and here's that and do this and don't do that. Like so you need to have some covering there and protection. But I think that's still something that can be done.

Well, yeah, that's a good point. If they can partner up with somebody that's older, that would be great. Because in my experience leading several behind the mask groups out of my home or at church, I ran into things multiple times of I was sexually abused, I was raped. And the leader needs to know how to handle that. They need to know, they need to be able to follow up and find out if that was reported and do the parents know and was it the parents? And I mean there's a lot that comes out in teenagers because as I find leading all kinds of women's groups, there's a lot of sexual abuse and a lot of sexual trauma and that is probably going to come out in one of the groups. And so having the memo of understanding signs, having the leaders vetted and the training to know what to do to respond is really important. No pressure. But you know, that's just seriously realistic things to consider because I experienced it in several of my groups.

Yeah, well, and we don't want to let those fears keep us from doing what can be an incredibly healthy thing. Because if that's a fear we have, it should actually increase our desire to get involved. Because if we're concerned that there are things happening that are at that level of seriousness. Like why would we stand back and do nothing? That, yeah, it's serious, but the seriousness of it underscores why we're doing it. And I think to speak to the need for a covering in regards to that. We do get churches that ask about teens going through the Conquer series and we say, man, that can be a great experience. But we just encourage in those scenarios that the teens are together at their own table that you're not mixing in, you know, teens with their dads and a table of other men because you, you run into inappropriate sharing really quickly there. But if you can have a Conquer series like we did at our church, we had a group of probably 50 guys go through and you know, six of the seven tables were men and then one was our teenage guys with our, our youth leader who was leading them through discussion that was appropriate for their level. So you can definitely do some of these things concurrently. You just need to be mindful of who's working with the teens and what kind of covering is provided there. And maybe a follow up question to that, Ashley, that some listeners might be thinking in the back of their heads like, do parents need to know if their teen or student is going to be in a group like this? Or could a student be in a group and not have their parents consent? How do you advise a church when it comes to a parent's involvement or awareness of the group and what's being discussed?

Yeah, like with any of the groups that we help get started in churches, they are ultimately the church's groups and how they handle their situations and run them is on the church. We have our peer desire online groups, but we do offer recommendations off what we've seen work best and legal recommendations. And so we do recommend a memo of understanding and having reducing the risk policy or church because your leaders should know right away who to go to in the church if they come across a leader, a legal issue or something like that that they need to share with. And so with the kids, with the teenagers, we do have their parents sign the memo of understanding saying that they know they're in the group because it does just cover everybody if anything comes up. And I usually try to have a meeting with the parents or write a letter if their parents aren't around and just let them know that we want to balance the kids having a safe place to be able to just openly share about things, but also give the parents security to know that if anything really intense comes out that they'll know those. And so there is a balance. And. And sometimes you get questions. Like, I've told the parents once when I let a group out of my home, I'm not going to tell you if they kiss the neighbor boy. Like, I'm not. These are the types of things where I'm going to let them just work through this. But if I see they're in an unhealthy relationship or something illegal happened or they were sexually abused or something to harm themselves, those are the things where I'm going to call you in and I'd ask them, are you okay with that level of me letting them be able to process this without me telling them? At the same time, I'm always encouraging them to open up and talk to their parents about these issues. And so it is a tough balance. But from what I found, most of the parents are like, thank you so much. We don't know how to talk to our kids about this. And. And they're really thankful.

Yeah, I think that's a great point. Just to have a conversation and create that expectation with parents that we want to both create a safe environment where kids feel free to share anything and know that we're not going to take all the details back to your mom or dad. But at the same time having some expectation that if it's some serious stuff, if there's anything where a person is unsafe or in an unsafe relationship or there's been illegal activity, that those are things we would work with the students and parents together to communicate about that. It's not just going to be a, hey, what, what. What's said in group stays in group, no matter what, because that cuts the parents out of a role that sometimes they do need to have. So if. If you can help the parents up front, get on board with that, that, yeah, we don't. We don't want to know or need to know everything because we want our student to feel like they can process and be real. And we hope eventually that's with us too. But I think in a lot of homes, parents just recognize there's a dynamic here where I've not yet created an environment where my teen or my student feels completely comfortable bringing those things to me. And so this could actually be a way, if they're in a group with a leader that's walking through the process with them, that a student could get to a place where they're able to face things better and see, oh, here's some things I do need to learn to be honest with my mom. And dad about. So I think the outcome, if parents can see that the outcome is better communication in their home. But if they want to demand that up front, like, nope, everything they share a group I need to know about, well, your student is probably not going to be very honest in groups. It's like going through that filter of, well, what do I want mom and dad to know? Well, not that, not that, not that. So I won't share anything.

Yeah, like having your spouse read, knowing your spouse is going to be reading your workbook as you're trying to practice.

Then you're not going to be honest.

Your addiction.

And again, like my experience in youth ministry, the parents have to partner together with the church, with the youth ministry in order for any real change to happen. Because if you come to group, if you come to youth group and you're in that safe place where you can share with your leader or your pastor, that's probably great for you. But then if you go back home and it's like, oh, this is, I can't talk about it here because I'm either shamed or there's shame language that intentionally or unintentionally is being used. Mom and dad don't ever talk about, has to be both. And if the parents can work to create that culture while trusting the process of trusted leader walking their kid through that safe place and through that process, that's how real success is going to happen. Period. I mean, we talk about it all the time that if you are in recovery and you're doing the work, but then you go back to an unhealthy culture or an unhealthy place, it's going to be really hard to overcome that. And so this is something for a parent that if you're out there speaking from my experience, the youth pastor cannot be the one who spiritually and even in this context, sexually discipling your student, you have to be a part of that process. I just, I don't think I could say something more strong in this area. You have to be a part of that process because they're still in your house. You still are the one who's creating the okay or not okay topics or culture in your house. And so you have just as much of a role in this, even though you're not in the group and having the conversations. You're the follow up. You're the one, the sounding board. You have to be there for your kid.

Yeah, and I noticed too, with my teens, sometimes a parent can do a really, really great job at being a Low shame house and full of grace and open with their issues and the nature of teens, they still just may not want to talk to you. So no shame on a parent if your kids don't want to talk to you. I found that my husband and I realized that when we do anything with the whole group of teenagers that hangs out here, constantly, our kids open up because a lot of times their friends feel really comfortable talking to us. And so they'll engage in the conversation we're having about a hot topic or something with their sexuality. And then my kids will pipe in or, you know, you get those different. Just like with group, you get those varying levels of the outgoing ones, the outspoken ones. And then somebody is honest about something, and it allows somebody else to be honest. And so anything I can do with my own teenagers in a group, I find more successful than just like, talking to my kids alone. So, yeah.

Yeah. So, Ashley, in the normal peer desire group, one of the things we talk about a lot is that the leader is a facilitator, a person who's still going through their own journey and is sharing real openly about the challenges they've faced. Is that the same with student groups? Talk a little bit more about what's appropriate for sharing when an adult is helping lead one of these student groups.

Yeah, so the adults want to get a workbook for themselves, just like our adult groups. And they would work through their answers according to when they were in that teenage category, you know, age group. And so I would share my answers of the struggles I had. And. And just like with my adult groups, I like to share all of my struggles. So if you're talking about, you know, addictive patterns or traumas, I. I don't just focus on the sexual relationship ones. I focus on the eating disorder ones or anything like that, because it helps the girls or the boys feel comfortable to bring out everything they're struggling with. And one of the things that I see with some adults is when they call, either I will hear I don't have anything to connect with. And I'm like, well, we all do because we're human. And then the other side would be, well, I had an abortion and my daughter doesn't know. And I feel nervous about going through this because I've never told her, or I've never told her that her dad and I didn't wait until we got married to have sex. And those are really tough spots to be. Normally I try to put pause on them leading their kids through the group and have them go through either betrayal and beyond or unraveled or seven pillars. And then just start learning and processing their own stuff. And then that organic sharing, like you'll learn so much as you're going through and you'll start to share and be able to have the conversation. And then when you're done with your group, you'll be in a better place to lead your child through a group. And then same with youth leaders. When we first started it and I saw how big it was going to be, I started a behind the mask group just for leaders. And we were going to like quickly work through the 15 week workbook and several of us leaders just started experiencing all this trauma that we didn't even know was there because we had never processed the stuff we went through as teenagers. And so the adults were so thankful to be able to have that time to process the. Through that before leading the kids. And so that's something to take into mind too, that if you have an adult who hasn't processed their past, they may want to go through it first, even if it's at a faster pace or simultaneously be in their own group working through their own stuff while sharing their teenage stuff with the teenagers. I've seen that work really well too.

Yeah, I mean, this question, I think of what's important, I think it's really, really important to normalize in the sense of that we share, that everyone experiences it. Normalizing triggers and emotional things that are going on. That it's okay that something happened at school and you got upset, that's okay, that's not a bad thing, that's not shameful, that somebody did something that set you off or made you upset. And so for me, I feel like that's what's really important, is starting to share what's going on underneath. That motivates the behavior too, because we talk about, right, that sharing from your perspective or your experience in that season of life when you were a kid, but also understanding that right now, even as an adult, I'm still experiencing some of the same emotional things that you are. The same triggers. When someone does something to me and it disrespects me, it. It makes me want to numb out and it makes me want to pursue things that maybe are unhealthy or maybe that are healthy. But I want to use them to numb out, making them unhealthy. So it's just like, it's just one of those things where I feel like we have to be willing to share if we are not even currently struggling, still sharing what's going on underneath, still sharing that when I come home and my kid is sitting on the toilet because we're trying to teach him how to go to the bathroom, not in a diaper, and I tell him that he needs to try again, and he screams at me. That makes me feel disrespective. That makes me feel like I want to go numb out and just watch a crazy show or eat a whole thing of Oreos, whatever it may be. I also, as an adult have those things. So sharing those with students, I think is important.

Yeah, finding those connection points. And what comes to mind for me is there needs to be a combination of both honesty, but also some healing. And I think back to my own teenage experience of looking for help in this area and just wanting to figure out, like, how do I manage this? And there are actually, as a teenager, only two men that I can remember sharing my story with. And ironically, they were both named Dave. And the two Daves were very different in their response because the one Dave, I think, in trying to be empathetic and helpful, shared a lot about, like, oh, I struggle with this too, and I bet half the men in the church do. And it was very, very honest. But there was no healing in Dave's life. And Dave actually went on to make some very poor choices after I was out of youth group. And it was like, wow. So I got some honesty, but it actually left me kind of feeling, like, hopeless, of, this is just how men deal with stuff, and I'm going to struggle, and there's not a lot of hope out there. And then another, the other Dave that I shared with, I felt like there was that combination of he was honest about, yeah, this is something I've dealt with, but here's what I'm doing that's helpful. And he was really the first man that ever gave me the concept of accountability, of having guardrails in your life, of watching what you look at. And granted, I didn't follow them real well. I was a teenager, and there was no group to process with. But. But his advice was that combination, and I think that's what we're looking for as both parents and adults, is if all we're able to do is be honest, then we maybe need to use that as an opportunity, like you were saying, Ashley, to lean into our own healing and recognize, you know, maybe we say to that student that shared with us, wow, thanks for your authenticity and sharing this. And, you know, I want to be honest, say, I struggle with some of these same things, and I've not found Much victory for myself. And so I'm. I'm going to take some similar steps that I'm going to encourage you to take, because I've heard about these groups and I've heard about this process, and I need it for myself. Because if we're not willing, and this is the thing we try to gently say to parents, if we're not willing to face our own issues and our own brokenness, we can't really expect our teens to do any different because they're watching us. And we can try to, well, do as I say, not as I do, but they sniff that out. And teenagers, they're not buying it. I think especially in this generation, they want to know, is it real? Is it true? And if it's not true in your life, you're not going to have a whole lot to say. So we've got to look for opportunities where it can be a combination of honesty and some hope of actual health and growth and change.

That's good.

Go ahead.

Sorry. How a leader, or how a leader or parent responds is so big, because I've seen some material on these little snapshot tools, you know, like acronyms or different little phrases and pictures and poems or whatever, to keep your eyes pure and to have good boundaries on the Internet. And those things are great. I mean, we have. We have a variety of all the tools in our workbook, so we have the things to help you keep your boundaries safe. We have the scripture, the biblical support, we have the science that teaches you what's going on in your brain. And it's. It's. When I see just one of these pieces, you have the open sharing. But if you're doing all open sharing with no concrete steps on how to get out of it, or, you know, you're just sharing without saying how Jesus fits into this, it's very confusing. And so that's why the pure desire resources are so good, because it's just all packaged to where you're having the guardrails, you have the tools, you have the biblical foundation, you have the science, you have the plans. And anytime I lead a group like Living Free will have the faster scale each week. I do those things for what I'm currently struggling with. Anger, overeating, watching too much TV to show them how these tools play out and how you're constantly trying to be intentional about being healthy. And then when you're processing through the workbook, I tend to have those be my answers from the past so they can see what that looked like and connect to how I Struggled in the same kinds of way.

That's good. So, Ashley, just think about this for a minute. When people are listening to this, and maybe they don't have student groups. Maybe they do have groups for adults, maybe they don't. But in this whole conversation, what benefits would you say you've seen in your experience, with your own experience in starting these and leading these groups, but then also the conversations you have with so many churches? What are the benefits that you see? Churches that when they're starting student groups, what do they see happen?

Oh, I, like, get goosebumps because what I saw in my own church and in my home is that it gets. It gets the kids to realize how uncomfortable it feels to live with shame and secrets. And so they don't have to wait like we did. So they're in their 30s or, you know, 40s or 50s to break free of shame and understand how, feel how good it feels to live authentically in relationship. They get to learn shame free close relationship and intimacy at such a young age. And so I've had, you know, I've had girls that struggled with pornography. And when they first reached out, it was like, I've talked to the pastor, but they didn't know what to do. They sent me to you. I'm so embarrassed. I barely even know you. I, you know, I don't even want to say it. And it's like three hours of trying to get it out of them. Like, you'll feel better if you say it. Just, you know, just say it. And then a year later, they're up there giving their testimony about how they struggled with porn and went through these groups, and they learned that living in secrecy and shame is not okay. And it feels so good to be free. And they're sharing their story with other kids. And so I think that's the biggest thing. If we're all going to make mistakes and we're all going to struggle and we're all going to have sin that tempts us and, you know, all through our life. But if you can teach somebody that living in secrecy is. Is something they don't ever want to do, that's the start of all recovery, is that they're. They don't want to live with secrets. They don't want to live with shame. And so I think that's the biggest thing you can teach a kid. Not that they'll be perfect, but that they'll learn to be honest and ask for help and know how to find help and use tools.

Yeah, I think the two biggest Things I've seen is helping create a healthy environment that helps teens know their struggles are real, that what they're facing in their sexuality is something that needs to be taken seriously and can be talked about. And I think sometimes churches present this unintentionally present this model of, well, when you're an adult, you'll have adult sized problems and then we'll help you with your sexual brokenness or issues then. And like, until then, the message can kind of be, well, you know, good luck, stay pure, don't have sex before marriage, and we'll talk to you when you're 25 and married. Like, well, that doesn't really help. We need to acknowledge that what you face in those early years, late childhood, early teens, you are really creating patterns that will dictate a lot of your future life choices. And so we're able to say to our students, hey, where you're at really matters, and the choices you're making could be life altering. And we're here, we're in this with you. You're not alone. The second thing I've seen as a huge benefit is creating a culture of discipleship among students. Because if we do the youth group thing, and even if we do small groups, it tends to be a lot of, well, let's talk about it, let's talk about it. There's a message on it, we talk about it. But if they're engaged in a group, that requires them to be a little more proactive, to do a little bit of work, to do some thinking, to come back and report on something. Now we're helping train them in what discipleship and transformation looks like, that it's about us taking responsibility and taking action and not just coming and hearing a great message and promising true love waits until marriage and those things can have a place. I'm not trying to speak against them, but say, if that's all we do, that's the very thing we see in the church that we're battling against today is this culture of people that just want to show up for a great Sunday morning service, go home, and then live no differently than anyone else around them. And some of that I wonder if it's because as students and teenagers, that's what we taught them to do. We taught them to come to the event and then go home and live like everybody else. So these groups actually can become a powerful discipleship tool to help students see, oh, growth in Christ takes effort. It takes me owning some things in my life and being accountable to other people. And if we can get some of those concepts in their minds. And even if it'll be imperfect, because that's the truth. Right. For a 13, 14, 15 year old student, they're not going to do this perfectly. That's okay. We're at least getting some concepts into their mindset and into their thinking that I really believe will pay a lot of fruit, pay a lot of dividends later in life.

Yeah. As you guys are sharing, I'm just thinking that this is a topic that seems to be the front door to opening so many other conversations.

Oh yeah.

That basically you've got people who you're working on talking about a really, really difficult topic. You bring up sexuality, you talk about it from the front, People share. And once you open really that door, people become more and more comfortable sharing about drug use, relationships, depression, anxiety, social media use. Like you start to really open the gates. And so I think that this is a topic that if you can start to address and then you can give, as we talked through the episode, really a roadmap or at least a path for students to pursue health in this that you'll see that that really opens up the conversation for so many different things because again, this is a topic that so few are willing to talk about in leadership in the church. So unwilling to talk about. And if you do open it, then you're going to see more and more willingness for students to invite you into their lives, which let me just tell you, is one of the most beautiful and one of the most powerful things you can experience as someone who's serving and walking alongside a student's life is when they ask you for help and they share about what's going on in their life. It's a very vulnerable, but a really fruitful place to be. So I think that this topic in general opens the door to many, many great conversations and fruit.

Yeah, that's really good. Out of my last couple groups, I've ran on unraveled side and betrayal and beyond. Every single woman in those groups told me that they did not have conversations about sexuality in their upbringing. And so not that it's a road to a certain destiny, but you see how it took crisis to get to the point to go and process those things. And so that's why I always end up getting really emotional. Teens like you don't have to wait till you're in crisis and your world explodes. That if really more directed at the church leaders that this is a topic that needs to be a regular core curriculum in the church because it has such an impact so church leaders really should be having something like this in all their youth ministries.

Yep.

Yeah. And honestly, stats tell us that a large percentage, an extremely large percentage of students, Students are currently looking at porn or exposed to it really on a daily basis. We need not only in video format and what they see on like pages, but in conversation. So we need to have student groups. We need to have a safe place for our students to be able to have these conversations and to have that safe place and truly understand what's motivating their behaviors. But more importantly, that there's a path to pursue the better way for their self sexuality. So, Ashley, your willingness to just lead those groups is impressive. And then also just being with us and sharing. We appreciate it.

Yeah. Thank you.

Wherever you're at on your journey, Pure desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. It's free. Share it with your friends and family. Write a review, help others find the podcast podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.