164 - Ending Group Well

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Happy day to you people. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you are listening to episode 164 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Joining me as always, is the tall guy, Nick Stumbo.

Big Gulps, huh? Well, see you later.

Okay.

Gosh, I'm racking my brain right now. Okay. I don't have it. Okay. No, I don't remember where it is.

Dying. Dumber.

Okay.

Yeah. Seagulls, huh?

So much shame I feel right now. Unbelievable.

You had no context for it.

I just started watching yes man again, which I don't know if I'd say everyone should watch, but it's hilarious. That movie is hilarious.

It's just a great greeting because it's such an awkward moment, like he doesn't really know it. He says big gulps and they just stare at him and he's like, well, see you later. And so, you know, today we're talking about the end of groups. And end of groups can be kind of that awkward moment of like, well, what do we do now? I guess we're done. See you later.

Oh my gosh. Seriously. And it is a good one. We had Rich and we'll make many jokes of how long he's been leading groups on today's episode. We'll get to that in just a second. First off, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. If you're a new listener, welcome. We're so glad that you're checking this out. We're so glad that you are just consuming this content. We believe it's very valuable. You can find us on all the major platforms and give us a review if you have not already, please do it. It helps other people find. The podcast means a lot to us. Second, follow us on social media. We are posting just about every day. Facebook, Twitter, instagramuredesirepdmi is our username. And we've also got clips of episodes up on YouTube to search. Pure Desire Ministries. And lastly, we are. Man, we are really, really excited about our Pure Desire Summit. First ever Pure Desire Summit. But Nick, things have changed recently.

Yeah. As we've announced, it's now going to be an online virtual event, which is sad for those of us that were looking forward to gathering, but we're just pivoting with the realities of our country and our state and needing to follow the rules. And in following those rules, it made the in person gathering really impractical. Darn near impossible. But we're super excited about this event because we think it's going to be just a great rallying point of encouragement for those that are somewhere in the pure desire process. So if you're just starting a group or leading a group, or you've been out of group for a few years, but you're connected to this community, I think you're just going to hear a lot of things that put some wind in your sails and remind you why this is such an important ministry that we're a part of.

Yes. So September 11th through 18th, it's a week long virtual event. So we're going to be releasing sessions every single day. And you can go and Register now@puredesire.org summit. Make sure you get that. We may also allow you to have lifetime access maybe to these sessions as well in the Future. So go PureDesire.org summit and register now. Okay, so you're the tall guy. We talked to Rich, who's the taller guy, and our international men's groups coordinator. And we talked about the weird kind of sad and exciting season of groups coming to an end.

Yeah. And how to end well to set people up for ongoing success and healing and freedom. And, you know, when I was a high school student, I actually got to sit in on a writing workshop done by the author R.L. stein. And someone asked the question that probably gets asked of a lot of authors. He said, you know, what if, what if you start a story and you can't think of how it ends? And I loved his answer because he said, then don't start writing the story. You don't have a story because until you know how it ends, you don't, you don't have a story. And I've thought of that many times since then. And in terms of groups, I think that principle really makes sense that we want to know what's the outcome we're shooting for? What are we trying to help people towards? And as we get that in mind, then the end kind of becomes. It fits in to where we're headed, what God is doing in our journey and doesn't just become, oh, well, we didn't really think about it. So having that thought even at the beginning of your group. So maybe some are listening to this and they're actually gearing up for a fall launch and they're like, well, ending group. Well, I don't need to end group well, well, how you begin with that end in mind will make a big difference. So I think today's episode for groups that are nearing ending or Maybe they got referred to this podcast because, oh, we're getting close and we haven't really thought about it. I think they'll get a ton of ideas and direction. But for groups that are just starting or someone that's not even in a group yet, I think it creates that arc of, why are we doing this and where are we headed? Because if we know what the ending is, then the rest of the story can make a lot more sense, too.

Absolutely. And again, this is something that we, all of us have done well and some mistake we all talk about, some mistakes we've also made in group and ending it. So I think this is going to be a super valuable episode. Enjoy it, Rich. Welcome back.

Hey, glad to be here.

You're a regular. I have you kept track. Do you know how many times you've been on the podcast?

Quite a bit.

Yeah.

Did. Did you miss the black shirt memo, though?

That's true.

When it went out, you know, early. I have.

For those that are not watching this on YouTube. Yes, you. I mean, you do have some black, so that's fair. It's not a color thing. Let's not make it a color thing.

So today we have a podcast uniform.

Sure, that's fine. I'm really trying hard to move on, and you're not. So today we're talking about. And as I was kind of reflecting on this topic, it is kind of an interesting time for a group when it comes to a close. When it comes to an end, there's kind of this, like, sadness and also like, oh, thank God. Like, they're, you know, 10 months. Okay, we did it. And so we want to talk about today, really, what it looks like to end group. Well, what does that look like? Because it can be done poorly and it can be done well. So the first question really is, because it can be both kind of amazing and kind of sad, what should it really look like? That's just point blank. What should ending group look like?

Great question. You know, I think after doing, like I said, I don't know how many groups. A lot. Yeah. I've never had a guy say, thank goodness it's over. Surprisingly not. Usually those. Those guys have, like, just kind of fallen off in the. Through the. Through the course.

Yeah.

They drop out a lot earlier.

Yeah. But what's great about it is, and I have this right now, so this is, like, perfect episode because I literally have three groups that are going to be ending in like, two, three weeks.

Nice.

So. And we've kind of been starting this process. One, I Make it. I just encouraging them a lot and I always do throughout the whole process. But they're asking next steps. Some of them are going to lead, some of them are going to co lead. So I walk them through that a little bit. I kind of, I, you know, especially the last, the last group, you try to make it fun. Obviously online is a little different because you're not meeting face to face. But we do, you know, we have the challenge coins and we will give. I usually give guys the challenge coins at the end of groups just as a recognition. Hey, I appreciate the hard work you put in and it's a lot of effort and just, just affirm them. And then some of those guys will end up co leading with me in another group or they'll partner with each other and do another group. I have one group that's probably going to meet and keep meeting, but they're going to go through the Genesis process together and then they'll use like the seven Pillars Journal just for the check in. Yeah. So there's a bunch of different things they can do, but. And the guys who need to go through seven Pillars, you know, we'll encourage them to go through it again if they feel like they need some more help, counseling. But overall, I think it's. If you go into your last group, into that, the last month of group.

Right.

You have to set the tone and create this positive exit because if you just say, hey, seven, four, we're done.

Yeah.

And then they're like, oh, okay, yeah.

Now, now, yeah, right.

So if you got to give them the expectation up front. And I also do that up front in the group because it's a two to five year process. So I let them know, I say, hey, even in the very first meeting, you know, we're going to be in this for 10 months. Then after that you want to look at what's next and given the options moving forward.

So, you know, there's an old adage that says begin with the end in mind. And I think that's something. When you're looking at how do groups end, it's also asking the question, what needs to happen early in groups and what kind of vision are we casting for our group? One of the verses that meant a lot to me in recovery and has ever since is Galatians 5:13, where the apostle Paul says that it's for freedom's sake that Christ has set you free. Do not use your freedom though, as a cover up or an excuse for evil and sin, but rather to serve one another in Love. And I love the way that Paul links together, that our freedom links us into serving others in love, that that's the outcome of freedom. And that's the vision that we need to cast in our group early on and regularly is to say that your healing process isn't just about you stopping a behavior or being clean and sober from acting out. It's really this coming full circle to say, once I was trapped in a lifestyle of self serving behaviors and now I'm moving into a life where I'm all about others and serving them and what can I do? And so that's something I encourage groups to talk about all along the way. And if you haven't been and you're nearing the end, really start to find ways in your group, maybe at the beginning or the end to just talk about that vision. You know, Ted Roberts has called it paying, you know, the sweet revenge that we take on the enemy. It's like what he used against us, we now use it as a tool against him and for God's glory in our lives. And that really is paying forward our healing. And so if that's a concept that men or women in your group are really aware of, like how am I going to take my healing and pay it forward? That actually shapes some of the decisions that they'll make about what they're going to do next. Are they going to help lead a group, start a group, go through group again if, if they have that vision that it's more than just me being free? So that's what I really encourage. Make sure you're casting that vision piece, not just talking logistics. And then I think a big part of your question, or how I would answer it, what it looks like is it's a conversation that you need to have. And as Rich was saying, you know, at least in that last month, starting to say, hey, we're getting close to the end of material, here's some options and we'll lay a few of those out here in a little bit in this podcast. Here's different directions that could go. Let's talk about it. What are you feeling? What's God leading you to? And maybe the guys or gals haven't thought of it yet. And you can just say suspend some time and pray through, like where you think you're at, what God is inviting you to do. So the more you can make it a conversation and not just you as a leader going, well, here's the plan, either take it or leave it. I think you'll have a better outcome with That I think too, if you.

Are a leader and you've been through group, you know what this is like. And so maybe share your experience of things that worked or didn't work as you kind of had those moments where group came to a close. Like if you ended your first group and you're like, oh, thank God, I don't have to do a commitment to change anymore, or, man, I really don't want to use the faster scale for a minute. Right. And then you get to a point where like, okay, I'm slipping down the faster scale because I've been using it for 10 months, but I haven't been doing it for the past month. That's not a good idea. And so I think sharing those experiences and being vulnerable in that, because you are still leading the way in that vulnerability, even though you're describing maybe some of the pitfalls that you had when you ended group, I think that that can help cast that vision too, of the importance of keeping recovery going.

Yeah. So the end of group can be kind of a weird time. Like you were saying, Trevor, it's this mix of maybe sweet and sadness. But we're not always sure what to do next. Especially if maybe we've gone through group for the first time. We don't. We just don't know, like, well, what should I expect? Should I do? So if we're in a group, how do we know what our next step should be? Or for those who are leading groups, how might they guide and direct people towards what choice they should make?

Another great question. I think it's really important that the leaders not just lead and facilitate, but they really have to pay attention and make mental notes or whatever. Where guys that are at in group. Because the guy in group may not know. He may just not know where he's at in the process anyway.

Yeah.

So, you know, like, where I've recommended, say, hey, I really think it'd be great for you to go through it one more time. Yeah, you've done. But affirm him. Like I said before, hey, you did a great job. But there's some areas I think, you know, you can pick up and do again and then let the ones know that are ready to move on. You know, you encourage them. Hey, if you want to do another group, you can, you know, outline what groups are available. You know, co, lead, lead, whatever that looks like. If it's an online group, hey, let's take it back to your church. Yeah, but the ones that are still struggling, I'll take some time with and give them the options of what to do next.

Yeah, so yeah, and I've, I've made that clear. Just. And there's no perfect number or amount. But what I've said in groups is that if you are not yet at a six month mark of being free of all relapses, if you've still had any kind of pattern, even if it is spaced out more than it's been in your past, but if it's still more than every six months, I'll be direct and say you should stay in group. Now there may be a couple of options. As Rich was staying, they might be able to continue in the same group. And I've led a number of groups that basically just looped around and maybe a person or two went a different direction and a person or two got added but the majority of the group just said hey, we're loving it, it's helping us. We're not done growing yet. We're all going to just keep on going.

Yep.

So that's, you know, one option. Then I've had other groups that we've looped into a new material like Rich was saying, the genesis process. Some have found other workbooks or maybe a book study, but they've still used the same group structure.

Right.

Like of doing group check ins with the faster scale and having a commitment to change and just using some different content in the middle. So that'd be a second option. And then if, if a guy or gal is at that six month mark where they'd say man, I've, I'm having a track record of freedom. And then I really push them towards that, paying it forward. What does that look like for you? Does that mean you could help someone lead a group or could you help co lead a group? Could you help me co lead the group? And then there are occasions where we want to be clear. Once you're in group it doesn't mean you're in group forever. Now for some people it becomes their ministry and their mission and they want to do it forever and we celebrate that. I mean I'm on year 10 and Rich is on year 400. So some people do, you are so.

Old, you look amazing for 400.

For other people, we do want to recognize this is a season in their life and God's going to use it to then lead them into something else that will be part of them paying it forward.

Right.

So if they feel called into another church leadership role or to teaching a class of some kind and, and they've said man, I've got A year of sobriety under my belt. You know, you want to celebrate that? But even for them, to see their, their exit as part of them paying it forward, not just, oh, I did group, now I quit and I'm done. It's like, this is the next phase in my healing. I'm just gonna be working on my healing in a different context.

Yep. I think it is okay to take a break and like, let's just say that a couple times it's okay to take a break after group. It's okay to take a break after group. Maybe it's not a year, maybe it's a month, maybe it's, you know, two months, three months. But I think that we just have to be honest that it's not because that's the fear of finishing anything. It's like, okay, cool, tied a bow over that and now I can move, move on. And so you got to make sure you're open handed with recovery in that sense. Something coming to mind as well that we've heard a lot from women who've gone through betrayal and beyond realize that there's some unhealth going on in my life sexually as well. And maybe it doesn't manifest the same way as a spouse, but they realize I have my own sexual brokenness I need to deal with. And we're seeing women go through betrayal and beyond and then jump to unraveled and go through that and process through their own brokenness. And I think that that is number one. It's, I think, evidence of how good the material is, but then also evidence of women start to become aware of their own brokenness and want to step into that. Another thing too is if you're married and you're going through a recovery group and then your spouse is going through a support group, think about doing connected as a next step as well. And that's, you know, a resource that you guys would both buy a book, you'd go through the. The work and then meet together once a week. So it's still got that similar flow, but it's something that you're then investing in the intimacy that you have inside your marriage. So there are other next steps as well for just pushing health, not just your own health, but pushing it into your family and your community as well. So as. And we're kind of already talking about it, but as you guys have been through recovery even longer than I have, I think I'm in year five, year 400 for Rich, year 10 for Nick. I think we're gonna have to keep circling Back to that year 400. That was good. What are things that we can keep doing as group members to keep doing, going through recovery and healing, and maybe let's take a step back from just pure desire, resources. But what are practices that you guys have done as group are ending, your groups are ending that you put in place and have really helped you keep going on recovery.

You know, I think you get into this routine for 10 months, so I always encourage those guys, make sure you stay in that routine. And even now that they may not be doing the homework, but still, you know, make sure that, okay, if you. If you've carved out 30 minutes a day for homework for 10 months, you know, stay in that routine, be in the word for 30 minutes, you know, just kind of keep that pattern. And then the other part of that is, I think for me personally, once a group is over, even if a group is done and there's guys are not, you know, they're going to take a break, I still encourage them. If you're not in a group, at least do the faster scale.

Yeah.

At least go through the journal and do. And get a new journal and keep the journal going while you're waiting for the next group or whatever that is. But I think you got to keep the same routine because it's so easy to replace all that time with some negative stuff that got us here in the first place.

Yeah. And we've said it a lot around pure desire. That group and the meeting times might take a break, but healing and recovery doesn't take a break because our addiction doesn't take a break. And the temptations we face in this world aren't going to go away and we don't become superhuman where we don't need to be attentive to what God is doing in our life and what he's moving us towards. And so I think that's always the question is what are the principles that I've been working on in this group that need to continue? So that's things like being vulnerable with other men in my life that I can call. So phone calls continue. Or it might transition more to, you know, a guy that I meet once a month or once a week for coffee and. Or to pray with someone on the phone. What does it look like to continue leaning into my marriage if I'm married and into that relationship and dating my spouse and working on true intimacy there? That's more than just physical. It's that emotional connection. So those are really the focuses, whether someone continues in a formal group or not. To say, how do I keep using these principles? And if someone really, that to me is the other kind of decision point is if, if someone thinks about and they say, yeah, if I'm not in group, I'm probably not going to do any of that, then you need to say, then you need to keep in group because these haven't become normal. These haven't become the way you do life yet. And that's really what we're aiming for, is a new way of doing life. So if a person looks at the future and says, yeah, I think I've got really healthy patterns with my spouse, those are going to continue. Or gal could say the same thing. Sorry, I use guy. Generally they're saying, I can see how I've got connection with friends, that I can be honest and vulnerable. People I can reach out to if I am triggered. If they see that that system of health will continue, then you might say, I think you're ready to not have group. But if they're not aware of how they'll do any of that, you say, I, I think you need to keep in this system until those things really become cemented in your life. It's kind of that idea that you're still really wet cement and if you stop group now, you're just going to mold into something different that probably won't be healthy. Let's give a little more time for these to really set in your life.

Yeah. And I mean, we've talked about it a lot because two things are coming to mind. One, this is where leading a group really is. It really can be, especially if this is your first or second time through group, it can be that next layer. And I mean, for me, I know this isn't the story for many people, but I led a group, my first group, and that was its own train wreck. But I think that the second time leading a group, it was this, like, okay, like, I'm starting to see some things, I'm starting to connect some things that I didn't the first time. I'm starting to see things and now that I know what to pay attention to that are helping me in my own recovery. So I think anytime we can, we'd encourage people. Like we've already said, lead a group. It's a great thing to do to help other people, but it's also a great thing to do for your own healing and recovery. And then another thing that we now have made live at the point of this recording is that we have supplemental counseling that if you've been in group or you're currently in group. We do have these like once a month, things you can do with a counselor to try to touch base and really get that extra layer. And here's why we would even suggest that is because us sitting here, I mean, Nick, you're in the middle of certification through itap. I'm not certified. I know, Rich, you're not certified through itap. We're not clinicians. So to have somebody who is that expert who can be the guide for recovery, that could be, you know, because I think, Rich, you're a great group leader and have been leading groups for a long time. You probably are. I mean, you are a world class, pure desire group leader. You may not have that, and it doesn't mean that that diminishes the value of the group that you're in. But to have that expertise of someone who's been walking people through this stuff for decades can be super helpful. So I think that's just another thing. I'd practically say maybe look into that.

Yeah. So we've maybe made some mistakes as we end group, and we've certainly talked with people and maybe heard some of their challenges. What are some of the common mistakes we've seen that people make when it comes to how they end their groups?

Let me start. Okay. Because this is a good one. We end super. Like, I end super soft. Like, I'm just, I don't give any next steps. I've done that before. And sometimes that's because I'm worn out like man 10. And I think I did that, if I'm remembering right, which I'm pretty sure happened. The last group I led, it ended really flat and not in the sense that the guys didn't have health or recovery, but it was just kind of like, I'm done, like, I'm tapped. I'm ready to just go, you know, in recovery, go sit on a beach and sip a Mai Tai. That kind of mentality. Right. Which I hate Mai Tais. I don't even know why I brought that up, but I think that it's. It's something that a lot of people can do where we just feel like, okay, now that we're done, like, great, continue on. And what that does is that doesn't set up the need for what you talked about, that consistent connection outside of group. Even though groups ended, we're still making phone calls, we're still doing check ins, we're still making commitments to change, we're still trying to figure out what recovery looks like moving forward outside group. And so for me, when we end flat without that vision that we've casted, because you can cast it at the beginning, and that's great. But if you don't come back and recast that vision toward the end, lot happens in 10 months. Like, you could forget a lot of things. And so I think that that's. It is not casting that vision. And ending flat is something I've done, and I think it was to the detriment of the group.

Yeah, that's so, so tough. I've had so many conversations about leaders, and I'll set back the guys in group. Let's talk about guys. But I'm sure on the women's side too, you can tell when a leader starts to check out, and they're like, oh, man, it's. I got like five weeks left mailing.

It in, so we don't need to meet this week. You guys did your homework.

The guys see that, and then if that's a pattern, then they're like, well, okay. Then they kind of start packing in a little bit. You're setting the standard, you know. And then pillar seven. A lot of times, if guys have already done their disclosure or their single, depending on the group makeup. I've heard a lot of groups just. They just get to pillar seven. They're like, oh, we've already done disclosure. I have a bunch of single guys, and they just don't finish. So they, like, literally finish that pillar, you know, the lesson four. And then they're like, so they don't even give a good off ramp. But I do like what you said, you know, at the beginning and the end. I think it's just the key to keep that consistent, actually, throughout the 10 minutes, the 10 months. But that's a big mistake, is when it gets to the end leader burnout. Because leading a group is not easy.

Right?

Yeah.

Can be an emotional burden.

Yeah. And I think this time around, I've learned a lot leading the pastor's groups, and super excited. And like I said, I've got three groups that are ending in a couple weeks, and then I'll have two more that are lead that'll be ended in July, in August. So looking forward, I'm super excited about the next batch of. Of pastors. So it's just. It really depends on the group leader.

Yeah.

And if a group leader is feeling a little, little empty, then he probably should take a little bit of a break now. Group members, same thing. It's hard going through group for group members. You know, after group, I think we really have to set them up and like we've talked about, make sure that they're staying connected and making phone calls. Just because group starts your relationship doesn't start. Because I just spent 10 months pouring out my soul to these guys and then they're the only guys that know me.

Yeah, here's it.

Here's something that I'm making a little bit of a connection here that I think what has happened for me is I spent most of my time in group with those guys, talking about group and not going out golfing, going out for pizza and a drink or having them over to watch movies or whatever. Like, I think that if you were to do that, that actually will create some of that space or that margin maybe in your soul a little bit where it's like, these are my friends and guys I'm doing life with, not just the guys I'm leading in group or the guys that I'm together with in group.

Yeah.

And obviously some of that's a little harder if you've been in an online group figuring that out. But yeah, for sure. With an in person group, find a way to. At the end, we've always gone out for dinner and just kind of celebrated. And I'll say, hey, what, like, what's been the biggest takeaway for you? What's been the biggest change? What are you kind of that focus on? What are you celebrating? What's God done? And then recapping what our plans are to do next. And that's kind of what comes to mind for me when I think of mistakes that people make. By the way, pillar seven, if you're in the seven pillars of freedom, is vital whether you're married or not, have done disclosure or not, because there is a ton of great information in there. It really has very little to do with disclosure. It's a lot more just about healthy relationships and living a life of honesty and vulnerability. So for any man listening, go through pillar seven whether you think you need to or not. But back to the mistakes. I think a common mistake is that a group just gets to pillar seven, lesson four, and they lesson four and they flip the page and it's like, oh, we're done. Well, you know, and they haven't talked about it until the last week. So don't wait to the last week to bring this up. As Rich said earlier, at least with a month to go, I always, I bring it up and say, hey, we're getting close and here's some options. And then the second time I'll bring it up the next week and say, have you guys had a chance to think about the options and where are you at? What are you leaning towards? And then the third week I'll bring it up again and ask more direct, like, hey, what. What are your plans? What do you think you're going to do? And that, I think is another mistake is that on the leadership level that we just are too passive.

Yes.

We're just like, well, just let me know. I think really part of our role as a leader is to speak into people. What we see that's good. And so if we see someone in our group is struggling in grace and love, we need to go to that person and say, I really believe you need to stay in an environment like this and encourage them in those options. Or on the same note, that if you see someone that's thriving and maybe they don't see themselves as a leader at all, but you just say, man, your story is powerful. God's at work. I really believe he could use you in leading a group. Would you consider leading or co leading him? And that's a role you play as a leader, so don't miss that. Then the final mistake that comes to mind, I think, is people making a decision about their future in isolation without conferring with someone else. Particularly if you're married, you need to know how your spouse feels. I've had guys like, oh, yeah, I'm done, I'm good to go. And you talk to their spouse and they're like, they need to be in group and maybe their behaviors are doing well, but the relationship, there's still trust issues and tension. And for that spouse, it really helps them to know they've got that weekly group that their spouse is going to. So you need to have the willingness to go, if you're married to your spouse, man or woman, and say, hey, here's what I think I'm going to do after this group. How does that sound to you? And allow them to speak into it. And if you're single, I think it's being vulnerable and open with your group to say, here's what I'm seeing. Here's where I'm at. What? What do you see? Because you guys know me, you know, I have blind spots. Do you think I should be leading yet? Do you think I should go through group again and allowing others to speak into that so that the decision you make, you'll really feel supported and confident about making it?

I think another thing that came to mind is if, because I've had this happen, where we end group and then some of those group members relapse or go back to the old behavior. I think a mistake, especially if you're a leader, is to then own that as your responsibility. That, okay, I must not have been a great leader or I must not have ended the group. Well, because this person's struggling, that's not on you. Like, do you have a role in that potentially? Is that your responsibility? Absolutely not. That's the responsibility of the individual. And there are people who end group flat because they either get worn out or just, you know, start to really lax on their guardrails or not. Like, maybe a relationship ended. It's like, well, I don't need group anymore. I don't need. You don't have the consequences anymore. It's all bs. Just understand that that's not your responsibility.

Well, and if we're the one that's kind of crashing after a group ends, that's just a learning moment. You know, it's like when we're teaching our kids to ride a bike and they've got the training wheels. If we take off the training wheels and they crash, we're not like, oh, you know, what's wrong with you? How could you? Like, we're like, oh, okay, maybe you're just not quite ready. And that's okay. Let's, let's put on maybe one of the wheels or here's another way we can keep getting you prepared. And so someone leaves group and finds out they weren't quite ready, having the grace to say to them, that's okay, it's just revealed that you weren't as far along as you thought. And let's help you re engage in group because it appears you still need this structure to maintain that freedom. And maybe in another group cycle, you won't need to have this structure. So it's not something that we want someone to feel ashamed over, but just to learn from it and go, okay, maybe I'm not as ready as I thought.

Right. So we've circled this a lot already. The idea of having relationship with group members after a group has ended is important, but let's get a little practical. What does that look like? Does it look like still going through a group together? Does it have to mean you're, you know, making three phone calls every single week and checking in? Like, what should that look like for people after group has ended?

Yeah, I think they should. Should connect. You know, it's going to be different, obviously. So I have, I still connect with guys from 25 years ago.

So not the guys from 400 years ago though. Okay.

They're long gone.

See, I circle back to it guys.

I take the longevity pill or whatever they call it. But, but I still connect from guys from, from some of the first groups I've done. And now with WhatsApp and whatever there are, there's so many apps, but there are for sure. So guys are still connecting and I encourage that. I say, hey, just because group doesn't stop, your friendship doesn't stop, our friendship doesn't stop. So stay connected, reach out, text, call. Because again, the only five or six, seven guys in group, they're the only guys that know everything about you.

Right.

And to still have that. Yeah. And I always encourage them to say, hey, just because you're not doing group anymore.

Yeah.

Let them know where you're at on the faster scale. Still use a faster scale.

Right.

It's an easy tool. Use the. And you know, along with the three circles and crash site some of those basic tools. Just because you're not in group, I mean it doesn't mean you can't use them. Yeah. So it's super important to stay connected. And I think I would add to with that is because especially for online groups that they can't meet, you know, face to face, coffee or whatever, like our regional events that we're going to be doing, that's a perfect opportunity for groups to get together. Right. Especially at the end of groups or if it fits in where they can go. Yeah, I know. I met my online group at our last men's event last September and it was great just to see everybody face to face and yeah, so now we're having those events around the, you know, around the US and stuff. So I think that's a great follow up.

Yeah, yeah. I think some of it can depend on what you are planning to do next, you know. So if a woman has been in a betrayal and beyond group and connecting with women all week and she has decided to go on and help lead a group and she knows she's going to be engaging in those relationships and phone calls, it might not be realistic for her to try to keep in touch with two groups. And so some of it's just an awareness of what you're doing next and how many hours you have to engage with people. But I've always said in group, like hey, you guys, you have my phone number. You know me better than anyone else. And if you are needing someone to talk to, if I need someone to reach out to, don't ever hesitate. And I'll kind of say that like, you don't have to plan to call me every week, but if it's helpful to you, you're welcome to. So I try to make invitations like that. And I think also it does kind of come down to were you in a group in your local context or at your local church? Because if you were in a group at your local church or in your community, it's a lot easier to stay in those relationships. I mean, you'll find you've developed friendships and these are people that you want to meet for lunch or grab coffee with or go out and hit, you know, play around a golf just because you're with them. And so if that's not the case, you may need that support of I don't really have people around me that I can engage at that level. That can really create isolation. So that brings up one other point I did want to say in this podcast. As you think about ending group, if you've been in an online group, one of the major points we want you to consider is how could we help you take this to your church? The primary way that we see churches engage with a purity group like Pure Desire is when a motivated volunteer comes to a church or a staff member and says, listen to what God's done in my life. Could we start a group like that here? And I would be willing to help because if you've been in an online group or maybe you've been driving to a group at another church and there's nothing in the community you're called to serve in the church you go to, that's the long term win for everybody. That to me is the pay it forward of not only God, how do you want to bring freedom into my life, but how do you want to help bring freedom to those that you've called me to do life with in the body of Christ? So as you think about ongoing relationships, some of it comes to that question of in the church where you worship week in and week out, can you be real? And if you've been in a group with people there, you probably can. But if there's no groups at your church, that's a big question you need to think through is to say, lord, am I the voice that you want to help use in my church? And that might be intimidating for some, but I'll tell you, read your Bibles. God uses unlikely people that didn't feel like they had what it takes to do the things God called them to do. But when they took a step of obedience and Said, okay, Lord, I'll have that conversation. I'll offer to help start the group. It's amazing how God works. So I'd really challenge listeners that way, that if there's nothing in your church to sincerely pray and say, God, am I part of your plan for my church? And if you get a yes, that scares you a little bit. That's maybe a sign that he's at work and just trust that he'll be with you to take those next steps.

Yeah. And I mean, let's like, it's okay to say it again. It is scary to take that step. It's scary to start sharing your story. But understand that your experience is probably the greatest tool you have to share, especially when you've had recovery under your belt like that. It may be the one thing that convinces somebody this is possible. I can do it. And I mean, again, I'm not putting the recovery of other people as a responsibility over us, but you do have power to call people into the light and they won't come unless someone calls them to. And so I think that this is a. I mean, I'm just heaping the cherry and the whipped cream on top of everything you just said because I think that it just needs to be re emphasized that this is something that families and cultures and communities can be completely changed just because you decided to share your story and call people into it.

Yeah. Yeah. So, guys, for today, let's end our episode this way by kind of circling back to a question that maybe a lot of our listeners are thinking asking themselves because they see, okay, how to end group well. And there is maybe that excitement, okay, I'm going to be done and move on to new things. But how can we know if for us, we really need to do group again? How do we know if this is more of a timeout before we start again versus moving on to something else? What does that look like and how do we help people come to those decisions?

Because you've been through group 400 years, so you've had to answer this question before.

Yeah, and we kind of touched on a little bit, you know, if guys are still struggling. So men and women are still struggling and it's obvious that they're struggling to go through it again. And I always tell guys, if they're struggling and they feel the need to go through it again, to not wait so, not to take a break. So an example, I got a couple guys in my groups right now that have already signed up for another online group because they know they need to. And Then I just encourage them, said, hey, we're going to be done in three weeks. Go ahead and sign up for a group that's probably going to start in a month.

Yeah.

So you don't have a lag time. Because the last thing you want a guy to do is if he's still struggling and no group available and he goes through the summertime. Because now we're hitting in the summer. Right. And he's just going to. And he's not even out of his relapse pattern yet. Yeah. Yeah. So I tell guys not to wait. And it's. What's great about our online groups is they're starting at. We always have an on ramp.

Yeah, yeah. All different times.

Yeah. So it's very important not to take a break if you're in, you know, even if you're still in relapse for the most part. So it's tough because you don't. It's like, man, I gotta go another 10 months. But yeah, you know, it's better than alternative.

Well, and I mean, it's. It's something that you need to look back at what was. What it was like 10 months ago. Like, your life, if you did the work will look different. And so try to, like, look back at mile one, you know, of this long road and be like, ah, okay, I see some changes. I see some growth. That reminds you the value of it, which I'm having to do right now. In our previous episode, we talked to Ashley Jameson and she was talking about how relapse has changed for her to, like, freaking out at her kids and got a little, you know, sprinkling of holy spirit conviction. That anger is something that. Especially as we're coming out of the pandemic and everything and being stuck at home, man, that's something that I'm seeing is a problem. Especially freaking out at my kids. For some reason, it's not my wife, but maybe it's because I don't tell her to do stuff and she disobeys me all the time. But because that's not the type of relationship we have. Okay. That could be a whole thing. Don't touch that. Okay. We're just gonna leave it there. But I'm starting to see that there are areas of my life that I want change in. And I know that going through group has helped that. And I know that maybe right now I'm not struggling with porn and masturbation, but that doesn't mean that there aren't areas of my life that need that extra layer of Healing in community with other people. So that's the first thing. The second thing for me, and this has just been my experience and I have not responded super well up front to both of these because this has happened twice where someone asks me, hey, I've got this person, or I know this person wants to go through group, will you lead us through this group? And my initial response is like, no, I don't, like I don't have 10 months, I don't want to, you know. But then after about a few days, it's like, all right, I really need to consider this, honey, what do you think? Can I do this? Can I leave this group? I think I have seen that the Lord continues to call me back to being in that context. Maybe it's not leading, maybe it's just being of a part, part of another group, but just that idea that I've seen so much fruit from walking through this for myself, walking through this for other people. And so there may be times where the Lord asks you to step out into some discomfort in that, like, I don't want to do this again. But if you kind of get those questions over and over and over again, there may be a theme emerging. So that for me has just been what's happened.

Yeah, I think we've mentioned several of the things that come to mind for me that I think there is this process that we need to pray and we need to ask God for direction and what's his will for us. Then we need to have conversations with our spouse, if we're married, or with our group about what do others see? What do they think is best for us? Then we need to ask the question, how am I paying it forward? Whether that's helping lead a group or in another ministry. But, but really taking sincerely, that's part of my healing. That's not just an optional, well, that's a nice thing to do. It's like, no part of my healing is moving from self centered living to paying it forward and how can I serve others in love? And then that fourth question of and so what's your plan to continue healing? And if you look and you say, well, I'm not sure what my plan is. That to me is part of your answer. If you don't know what your plan is, you should probably just keep going through group. Because if you had real health starting to take traction, the plan is like, okay, I'm going to be doing this. Here's how my marriage is growing, here's how I'm engaging with my kids, here's what I'm doing with friends and community and. And if you look at that and like, man, I've got a plan. And I really think it's going to be successful whether or not I'm in group. Well, you know, then maybe ending group completely or for at least a season is going to be great.

Yeah.

But if you're like, boy, I hadn't really thought about it. Well, then I think your plan should be go through group again until those things become clearer. So that's a process I would encourage for everyone as they consider what's next for them.

Yeah, yeah. Because I think what happens is we've all seen it where a guy goes through group and it's like you get pillar five and the light finally comes on. Well, he hasn't done much in the first four pillars. Well, you, you know, hey, you probably should go back through it one more time. Right?

Yeah, yeah, we've talked about that too, on the podcast. That the first time through can kind of be like triage care or the emergency room, like, stop the bleeding.

That's right.

Set the bones. The second time through is a lot more like the physical therapy, like learning a new normal, learning to walk again, learning to be a healthy individual. And it's actually hard to do both simultaneously. So I'm. I'm not saying every person needs two groups to get that far, but I would say we've seen that's common.

Right. But it. Because recovery is layered is what I have learned. It's very layered. Where at like, so your idea of the bleeding, you stop the behavior, but then you start to. That second time, for me, I learned what was motivating the behavior. And then I also saw I was taking all of those same emotions and I was just going to food. Like, you know, I wouldn't have gotten that. Like, I'd still be £300 if I didn't think, if I didn't go through group that second time and start to see what was the connection. So I think looking at it as the onion, that layer is important and that can be intimidating. But just understand that anything worth doing is going to take time and it's not going to be easy. So as we talked about, ending group is going to happen. Okay, spoiler alert. There is an end to each group, but that doesn't mean that healing has to end and it shouldn't. We would call you out into that, that it doesn't need to end. So. So ending group. Well, in a way that sets trajectory or that vision for forward motion for everyone involved is very important and very needed and so rich. Your 400 years of experience has paid off so much in this episode. Thanks for being here.

Hey, I should have an arc built by now, right?

So wherever you're at on your journey, arc or no arc, Pure Desire is here to help give you the roadmap of healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to our website PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. And if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, just do it. Write a review, help others find the podcast. Lastly, never stop being healthy.