165 - FAQ #10

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

What is up?

I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 165 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

To infinity and beyond.

I'm blown away that you haven't done that one yet.

I know. I thought the same thing.

Wow. Next week's episode will be Woody the Sheriff.

There's a snake.

Yeah, don't use it. Don't use it. We're gonna have to cut that part.

That's unbelievable. Too many intros from the same place, you know?

Yes.

So.

Okay, I. Sometimes I wish I could be the one to do intros, but then I just think about that. You have to come up with them every week.

We could flip the script. Yeah, we could.

Sometimes.

I was a host for a couple.

Of episodes, I remember. And I also, for those listeners, just so you know, I did listen to those episodes and heard that you told people that just you just kicked me out, that I just got the can and was fired, and then you tried to make it up with some fluffy language or whatever. Listen, we've got a great episode for you today. Couple things real quick before we get into it. A few. Actually, I'm gonna tell this quick story, my son now. When I say, buddy, couple minutes, he goes, okay, dad, does a couple mean two? Like yes means two. And then when I say a few, he's like, okay, does a few mean three? And I said, yes, there are three things we're gonna talk about. There are a few things, very specific. We're pretty sure he's a one on the Enneagram. First off, if you are not subscribed to the podcast, please do it. Don't wait any longer. You can find us on all the major platforms. And if you can give us a review that helps other people find the podcast, it means a lot to us. Second, follow us on social media, Facebook, sort of on Twitter, but on Instagram as well. Earedesirepdmi. If you'd like to consume video content, we have some of the episode clips up on YouTube. Pure Desire Ministries. Just search that. Okay, so we're less than two weeks away at this point from our first ever Pure Desire summit. And if you're in a group, if you've gone through any amount of recovery or just love Pure Desire and want to press in more, you should come join us for this event.

Yeah, I mean, a national take Friday off day who's excited? September 11th, hopefully you've told your boss, just can't work that day. And whether you're going to be here in person with us. And we'll be taking all the appropriate social media, social distancing guidelines, whatever they are in the state of Oregon at that time, we'll be on board and make sure it's as healthy as possible. But we know probably a majority of the crowd will be joining virtually. And whether they're viewing it, you know, live with us in the moment or in the next few days or weeks afterwards, I just know it's going to be a tremendous time of encouragement and just remembering what this journey is all about, what God is doing in us and wants to do in others. And so hope if you're not signed up yet, you'll jump online today and get signed up. And I really think this is something you don't want to miss. We hope it's just something people make an annual part of their calendar and that they can enjoy National Take Friday off day with us.

That's great. And hopefully. Well, here's what we'll probably do. Even if we aren't required to wear masks, we'll require you, Nick, to wear a mask when you teach your session, just so it'll be fun for everybody. Registration is open. Make sure that you select either in person or a virtual ticket. They're both available. Just go to PureDesire.org PD summit. Okay, so we haven't done one of these episodes in a long time. We are now back doing an FAQ episode and our long last friend, Heather Kolb is now back on the podcast.

Yeah, these frequently asked question episodes are honestly some of my favorite just because they give us an opportunity to kind of delve into some of these, the areas that can feel just a little more unique or specific situations that people have wondered, what about this? And the truth that we've talked about before on these episodes is there aren't many places to go and ask a question about. Right. I'm dating someone who's a recovering sex addict. What does that mean? What does that look like? Or, you know, questions about masturbation and just the particulars. So I think these are very interesting, even if it's not someone's particular question. But I think today the breadth of topics we covered, everyone is going to hear something that applies to where they're at in their journey. So, yes, I enjoy doing these a lot.

Yeah. And having Heather on is always a treat, so it's a good one. Enjoy. Heather, welcome back.

Thanks. Happy to be here again.

I feel like there was. If you've been a listener for the podcast for a while, you've noticed that Heather's just been gone. Like, I don't know where she went. She just hasn't been on the episodes. But now we had you on about six episodes ago, and now we're excited to have you back on again.

Thanks.

Glad you're here. All right, so FAQ episode number 10. We love these episodes for a number of reasons, mostly because we get to answer questions from you, our listeners, but then also some of these questions we just would never think of. Like, we'd never come up with this stuff. And so it's really helpful.

A real broad spectrum today. I'm excited.

Yeah, no pressure. So the first question and asked that it would. Their name would be Anonymous. And the question is, my wife is convinced my porn addiction is because of her. She believes I'm disappointed in her in some ways and therefore justifies. That justifies my choices based upon my disappointment and perceived need of further fulfillment. Can you talk to that point of helping my spouse see that porn is not about her?

Yeah. This is such a great question. And I mean, really, it speaks to the reality that I was stuck in for 10 years because I had that struggle with pornography and was fairly open with my wife. I mean, certainly not to the way that I could have been, but would periodically confess and every time would hear myself saying, it's not about you, and it's this old pattern, and I'm working on it, and you're great. And it just would continually cause her tremendous pain. And that was actually one of the things that I had to come to the realization of is no matter how it felt, to me, that was her reality. So that's one thing I might say to this, you know, the person who wrote the question. But to all of our listeners, when your spouse is saying this, how it makes me feel, whether that makes sense to you or not, they're sharing with you what their reality is. And so it's really not our job to try to tell our spouse what to feel or what not to feel like. Well, that. That shouldn't be true, because it's not true for me. That's not why I'm doing. It's like. And that was a real wake call for me because I just thought through if. If there was anything else in my life that my wife said, you know, when you do this, it feels like betrayal, and it feels like it's about me, I would have. I would have jumped on, let's do whatever we can to change this. But in this area, because it was so personal and it had been in my life so long, it was really hard for me to see that. And it was always like, well, no, you just don't understand. And a lot of my healing came when I was willing to accept that, no, I don't understand. And if that's how it's making you feel, whether that's truth in my mind or not, I need to face it. So I think that's one part of how I'd answer the question. The other thing I'd say is, frankly, to a spouse, you may not be the one that can even help her see that, because you're the one that's wounding her. You're the one whose behavior is causing these emotions. So it's very likely that if your spouse could get into a group with others that were going through that experience and she starts to hear their stories and kind of understands the pattern of this, I mean, there's realization that can come through that, or maybe podcast that she hears or books. But I mean, even with those, I think husbands also need to be careful that you're not trying to feed these to your wife. Like, see all these greatest episodes today.

That would help you so much.

All these people prove the point I've been trying to make to you for five years, which in your head makes.

Sense, but is not.

Yeah, but that's where I come back to. That's their reality. And whether it's rooted in logic in your thinking or not, because you're the one that's created some of it, you may not be the one that can help her. And so just taking a deep breath, you know, I always say to men is the greatest thing you can do is continue to lean into your own healing. And as you pursue that 100%, it's going to begin to impact your relationship in a positive way. And the more you change, the more your spouse will start to have some inquisitiveness about, wait a minute, what's going on here. There's health coming. There's good things happening, and that may be what would open them up to seeing that your behaviors are driven by wounds from your past, ways of medicating pain, the kind of stuff that we talk about in group. But again, you probably won't be the one to just convince her of that, because when it's trauma to her, it's not rooted in logic and rationale. So just being aware of that can be real helpful.

I Think this is really common for women because in their mind, like in my mind, I would think that if my husband is going somewhere else for sex, then it has to be about me.

Yeah. Like how could it not be? My wife said those exact words.

Right. Because if that's something that is just ours, that's intimate, that's a reflection of our relationship, then it has to be about me for you to go looking for it somewhere else. You know, and so I think it's really, really common. Nick, I love that you said that, you know, this husband, that it might not be for him to say this to her. And I could see how. Been there, done that, that I would be angry, you know, now you're trying to convince me or justify. Exactly. And so, yeah, for her to be in a support group is super good. I mean, really empowering because she is going to learn from other women, from other voices that it isn't about her and really more about what it's about for him. You know what I mean? And again, it's not about bashing on your husband or anything like that. It's about for her to find her own identity and fix some of those negative self talk, core beliefs, all of that stuff that can only happen in that really safe, confidential group.

I think the only thing for me that comes to mind that you could actually do is when you start to make those connections as to what is motivating those behaviors. And I think of our friend Jay Stringer and his idea, like for me has brought a lot of clarity on why certain types of pornography and like the type of like body type, the type of action, they're active, you know, like whatever is actually tied to experience and trauma and some wounding that I've had. And so I think that as and again, it wouldn't be something like, honey, guess what? At group today I learned that this is exactly why I look at these images or these videos. Like I wouldn't do that. But as you're having conversations and there's some exploration in that conversation of your struggle, I think that that's when you can start to share some of the. You know, one of the things I've realized is that I had a father who was very strict. And so for me I react negatively to that. And that's why I feel like I have to pursue this because it gives me control over it and I don't feel like I have control in other areas of life. Those kind of things are not going to solve this problem or this question, but may be something that can Be an added benefit to the conversation when you have it.

Yeah. And I think as we try to have those conversations, we just have to be aware very, very conscious that we're not making excuses, because what we're looking at, this might explain the behavior, but it doesn't excuse the behavior. And for the spouse that's feeling wounded, that's what it can sound like. When a husband starts to say, well, it's. It's not about you and you're so beautiful and you're pretty, it's something different. It just feels like an excuse to them. And so I think we have to be aware they're hypersensitive to that, and that's not a problem with them. That's in a lot of ways how God, I think, wired the female brain to react that much like men are kind of subconsciously asking the question, do I have what it takes? Am I good enough? You know, am I a man? Have I arrived? I think women are subconsciously often asking that question, am I beautiful? Am I desirable? Am I enough for my husband? And so we need to really reconcile with this idea that when I am looking at images other than my wife, no matter what the motivation is, it will tap into that part of her brain that's asking, am I enough? And with a world of women to compare to, it will always feel like I'm not enough. It's about me. And so if we can come to that, reconcile our thinking to that, it's like, oh, this is just like you were saying, Heather. It's naturally how my wife is going to feel. Whether I. That's my motive or not, that's what it's going to feel like to her. And that can really help us maybe enter into her pain in a more empathetic way.

Totally.

Well, the next question kind of relates to that. So, Heather, let's toss this over to you. Another writer asked this question. My wife thinks and talks about the women that I've watched online as real women. She says that I love them and choose them. I can see the enormity of pain I've caused her. But what's a good way to talk about pornography as being objectification, not a reality?

I'm glad you're answering this question.

Well, one of the things that I find interesting is that betrayal trauma is going to manifest itself in a lot of different ways. And so without going in deep to, like, the physiology that happens when people are using porn and masturbating and achieving orgasm, there is a little bit of truth to the fact that you're bonding with that image whether or not you say that you love her or. You know what I mean? And so a wife, I could totally see a wife feeling that way. And especially if, again, a husband is choosing that over real sex with his wife. And I think, too, that for women is that we tend to think of love or sex as being this really great reflection of our relationship and intimacy and this shared connection and all of those things that is only happening between the two of us. And then when somebody goes outside of that into pornography or anything else, then it's really hard for women to, I think, understand why that version of love or that behavior looks different or is called something different. And even with this question saying that this is objectifying women, which really can be kind of harsh when you look at what that word means and how degrading that is. And, you know, I don't think that that necessarily is going to help the argument in my mind, to try and convince your wife that really I'm using this because I want to degrade and humiliate women. You know, that's not a good way to start the conversation. And so, again, yeah, but. And I, and I can understand that rationale. But at the same time, I think that for her to be in a support group and for her to work through some of those things and understand addictive behavior and understand her own feelings is going to be far more beneficial, I think, in the long run.

So let me ask you a question, Heather, because one of the things that you've said before is that the brain doesn't know the difference between mentally rehearsing something and then actually doing it or experiencing it. That even though it may not be real women, the fact that it feels real makes it real to her. Right. So there's a similarity there. I don't know if that's. If it's a one to one ratio on that, but from what I'm hearing is that this question, there's a similar response to what you're saying before Nick, that this is her reality. You cannot tell her what her reality is. And the, the. The line of, like, perception is reality. Like, what's reality to me is reality to me. You can't change that or tell me that it. It's not that way. So again, I think it's that one of those things where we have to reframe as. And this can be something between a husband who struggles and a wife betrayed or the reverse.

Right.

We can't project onto someone else and expect them to see it the way that we do.

Yeah. And I think that, Nick, you handled that really well, even in our first question of just saying, you know, you're the person who is hurting your spouse. You know what I mean? So even if you said the best magic words ever, she's not going to believe you or your spouse isn't going to believe you, because out of the same mouth can't come this hurt and then healing. Yeah. And so that's why I think that. And a lot of women, I have to say that betrayal, trauma is so shaming. You know, there's so much shame tied up into that. And for women, they feel like I'm the only one. Nobody else's husband does this. And so again, for her to be in a group and to have that support and connection with other women who can say, I know how that feels, is going to be so healing for her.

Yeah. So, you know, to this anonymous writer, we're probably not helping you a whole lot because we're kind of turning the mirror on you. But honestly, I think that's part of what we need is to see the reality from our spouses and be willing, as hard as it is, to accept that and say, this is ruining my marriage and I need to make sure I'm not justifying it in any way, because I even hear in the question, she says, I choose them. I remember in my own patterns the way denial can get so thick and deep that I would feel like I didn't choose it. It was an accident I stumbled upon. And I didn't even mean to. I wasn't. You know, and this sense of choosing to be like, well, I was just sitting at my desk and then I thought about Prank that I chose to go to a porn site. Like, because I never did it, that directly. I had convinced myself I wasn't choosing it, but I was actually the one that needed to embrace that reality, that even if it was happening in a more subtle, kind of roundabout, incidental, quote, unquote way, those were choices I was making because I hadn't made the appropriate choices to go in a different direction, to get involved in community, to pursue my health. And so I had to accept that reality. I am choosing these images. And when I did that, it was sobering to be like, I'm making my wife feel this by my choices. So, again, I don't mean for us to harp on this writer, but in a healthy way, we need to accept some of that. The one thing I might say that to me is kind of a helpful analogy or word picture. About this that I think couples could maybe talk about is in the food area, where if you have a package of, you know, let's say raspberry flavored Skittles, that. That candy sounds incredible right now. That's what we would call scientifically a super normal stimuli, that because of the intensity of the flavor and the sugar, it will taste like raspberries, but at a level that your brain is literally responding to, way beyond what a normal raspberry can do. And it will actually start to destroy your taste for a normal raspberry, because then when you eat the real raspberry, it's. It doesn't feel sweet enough. It's a little bitter. It's like. And is it that there's something wrong with the raspberry, or is it what you've chosen in the supernormal stimuli? And so that's an analogy that might be helpful for spouses to think about. So even in that you're acknowledging, I have chosen this super stimuli, that it's not fair to you because it's impossible for you to compete with glamorized, photoshopped, perfected images when you're a normal human being with kids and a life and a family. And so in comparison, it's. It's not fair. But that's. That does describe a little bit what's happening to the brain, that the brain is being fooled by these images and what we're being sucked into. But it also can help us see the joy or the hope of freedom and recovery is to say, we know we want the real deal. The real deal, that the true raspberry is better for us by far. And if we can wean ourself off of the inappropriate sugar high and just get back to enjoying the fruit that God made, then our brain will reattach that and go, oh, this is what I really wanted all along. So that analogy might be helpful for some that are struggling with this question.

Or it might help my mouth just start to water. Are raspberry skittles a thing? Can we just. I'm asking.

I was trying to pick a fruit and I couldn't actually think of fruits.

Sounds incredible. Skittles. Listen, make them.

They're probably out there somewhere.

Yeah, that was good. Okay, so Daniel asks, what are some milestones for people just starting out in recovery and what can we do to celebrate them and use that momentum to start creating sobriety?

Yeah, this is a really good question. I think this is a question that people have at the beginning of recovery, in the middle of recovery, and after decades of recovery, you still have these, these questions. I think if you're just starting out in recovery, one of the first things that you need to learn to celebrate is, is when you feel triggered or feel tempted and you reach out before relapse. That is huge. That is one of the biggest mile markers when it comes to recovery is that you have what you used to do. You used to not reach out, used to not share, hey, this is how I'm feeling, or this triggered me. I remember an event that we had. I think I've told this story before where I got super triggered by something emotionally. And I realized I reached out immediately to Bob Vandermeer. He was at this event with me. We talked to him. And I just processed it. And I realized a year or two before, I would have never shared those emotions. They would have been this kind of like low hum in the background for a week. Then I would have numbed out on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter. And then within that week, I would have relapsed. And so you have to identify that those things may feel really small, but those things are starting a new cycle that you used to have, this negative cycle that you just go down into relapse, but you're actually breaking free from the start. So I think that that's, that's one that I would absolutely encourage anybody to celebrate. And there are other options or other, you know, examples that you guys can maybe share. But I think one of the things that I would do as both a group member who's experiencing this and as just groups together, leaders and groups, is to celebrate stuff like that. I think that even just saying, hey, that's awesome, way to go. Thank you for reaching out. Thank you for taking that courageous step and sharing this stuff. And so really calling that out, saying, you did a really good job, this is awesome. But then also, you know, say you get to one month or two months, six months, a year of sobriety, do something with your group, do something with your spouse, go out, like go on a mini vacation, go, you know, shoot four rounds of golf on a weekend. If your spouse will let you, like, do something to commemorate that. Because I think that we get into these things, like weight and food has been something for me. And my still, like, it's one of the areas it's easy for me to numb out in. And I, I have some health coach friends that talk about non scale victories, I think is the, the proper term. So you have to look at like emotional victories, you know, like the fact that I got Triggered and quickly reached out. That is an emotional victory that I have made. And we need to learn how to identify those. So those are my thoughts.

That's good. I think that too, celebrating is so important for our mental health. You know, I mean, it's really good for our brain to just recognize when we've made these positive changes and we can, you know, celebrate that with other people. One thing that I think is sometimes hard when people are early in their recovery is that rarely do, especially with spouses, rarely do they start the process at the same time. And so, you know, if you have an addict spouse who has certain started their recovery and yet their betrayed spouse isn't there yet, when you're happy, it may make them more angry, but that doesn't mean that you still can't celebrate. And so be willing to just celebrate with your group or with other people and not to leave your spouse out, but at the same time recognize that she might not be so happy for you or they might not be so happy for you if they're not there yet.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. A couple of things that come to mind for me in terms of maybe milestones or markers along the way. I think if you're at a point where you're starting to invite others into your journey, you know, you've joined a group, you're meeting weekly with someone like, because the poll of our sexual addictive behavior behavior is isolation. It's doing it alone. And so if, if you're at a place, you're not doing it alone anymore, you're, you're making progress and celebrate that, that you're in community. Another thing that comes to mind for me is if we feel that we're able to tell our whole story honestly, because typically we've tried to avoid parts or just forget about them and move on. But if we've been able to really start to piece together our whole story and what led to what, I mean, that's a significant kind of growth level. Third thing that comes to mind is when we're going beyond just fixing the behavior to seeing the goal here is to pursue a healthy way of life. That's a paradigm shift. And if someone realizes I'm not just trying to stop going to that one website, I'm actually looking at how to be a healthier dad and husband. Like, hey, celebrate. That's a great paradigm shift. And then just the two other things that came to mind for me is if you realize you're developing healthy self awareness and emotional awareness, that when something like you were saying, when something happens that triggers me or creates anger, if I pause and reflect, I can see, oh, this person. I felt slighted by them. But what it really tapped into is one of my core beliefs, one of the lies that I'm tempted to listen to that I don't matter. And it, it triggered that a little bit. And, and when you make those connections now, you're not just fixing the moment, you're actually allowing God to go into your history and, and redeem all of those things. So that's what we're looking for, is not just stopping the behavior, but that new way of life that really is all about that self awareness and emotional awareness.

Yep.

Good.

Cool. Let's keep going. The next question was sent in by Kim. This is a great question, and I mean, I don't know why I don't feel like I've ever heard this question sent in for the podcast. But what can moms do, specifically moms do to help their teenage sons to find freedom from porn and live in sexual health?

I love this question because I'm that mom. I have three sons and they're adults now. But I've lived this of just helping my kids, you know, manage not only their pornography use, but really what does it mean to live in sexual health? And I think that really as a mom, one of the best things you can do is to educate yourself. We have a book that Pure Desire published recently on how to talk with your kids about sex, which is excellent. Rodney and Tracy Wright, they wrote that book. And the thing that I love about that book most is that it isn't about helping parents have this one time conversation, but it's really about how am I healthy as a parent, how am I educated in these words? How do I really leave space for conversation with my kids and make sure that we're not running away from the questions about sex and, and sexuality and really about creating an environment in our home that is all about healthy sexuality. And I think that that's so important, especially for moms. That would be probably my first recommendation. The other thing too is that sometimes it can be a little bit challenging for moms just to, you know, how do I talk to my son about, you know, masturbation or wet dreams or pornography use and what is it doing to his brain? And your kid, their temperament and the way that they receive, you know, information and really your relationship with them might look different. I know that with my boy specifically, I have one son who's really logical and rational and so I could just you know, lay out the brain stuff for him. And he's like, yep, totally got it. Okay. I can see how using porn and masturbating is going to change my brain and damage my brain. Had another conversation with one of my sons that really was more of the emotional piece of it, you know, and his question, and this was the Lord, I'm so thankful. But his question was, why does the Bible talk about not having sex before you're married? You know, what? What's the big deal about that? And so, again, it gave us opportunity to talk about God's design for sex and for our sexuality and sex and marriage. And as the boys were talking about it, it came up that, oh, one of the. One of the guys in high school that he had gotten his girlfriend pregnant, you know, and so, you know, and clearly they were having sex. And. And it gave an opportunity to talk to the boys in a way that I don't know if I've ever talked to them before, and opened up this conversation so that I could say to him, you know, God loves us so much that he wants to protect us from the harm that comes from having sex outside of marriage. And so it gave us an opportunity to say, you know, what if you got a girl pregnant and she decided that she didn't want your baby, you know, she didn't want your son or your daughter and decided to abort your baby, you know, and so, you know, within a few minutes, my teenage boys are sitting there with teary eyes because it gave us an opportunity to talk about sex in a way in a context that rarely ever comes up, you know, because teenage boys, they're in the moment. You know what I mean? They're in the moment. They don't think about the consequences in the long run. And so for them to. To take that approach and to engage in that conversation, and it was so good for them. And of course, we had later conversations about it, but still, it just. If you have the opportunity to make it feel in your home like nothing is off the table, there's no conversation that I'm going to run away with. And if I don't know the answers, we're going to figure this out together. I think that's so good for your relationship with your sons.

Yeah. And what I hear you saying, Heather, what I love is that you're saying, stay engaged. And I think that's what's great about this question. And I see it a lot that for dads and their teenage daughters and moms and their teenage sons, it kind of Feels like, well, that's now between you and your mom, or that's now between you and your dad. And we segregate those, which to some degree, there's maybe some helpful parts about what a mom can teach your daughters. But the dads have a crucial role with the daughters and the moms, vice versa, with the sons because they can speak with a unique voice. And so don't just say, well, that's for you and your dad to talk about. It's like you can provide perspective. And so what I think about for moms is, like, how you can be the one that does train your sons into. What does it look like to treat a woman with respect? What makes you feel special or cared for? And just helping. Because a teenage boy doesn't know, like, how. How should I treat a woman? And if I, as I get older and find someone I might want to marry, like, what is she looking for? And. And not that the mom has to have perfect answers. And maybe sometimes even a mom is giving some of those out of what she wishes had happened in a relationship or their marriage. So it doesn't have to be out of our perfection, but just out of what we've learned to say. You know, here's what a girl is thinking maybe in that moment. And, you know, every teenage boy is befuddled by what are girls thinking? Well, the mom can maybe help with some of that and just create that conversation where talking about, you know, girls and sexuality doesn't just have to be, well, this is what the boys talk about because we can bridge a lot of gaps as parents for the opposite gender and really fill out their understanding of sexuality. So that my thought just is stay engaged. And I think look for those opportunities.

Yeah. The word that just comes to mind is consistency. Just that consistency that maybe you're not asking questions, but you're feeling it out every once in a while and coming back to it. Circle back to the conversation all the time, I think, is. I mean, as someone who was a teenage boy, that seems important to me.

Yeah. Well, great. Great answers. Next question here is from Melissa. And Melissa asks, what does abuse either sexual, physical, verbal, etc. So we're talking all kinds of abuse. What does it do to our soul and how do we heal that damage?

Great question.

So just like a small question in two minutes, let's fix.

Is. It's a sad question, but I'm glad that we're having this conversation. One of the things that really does happen, and I don't know, I always think in terms of how this affects our brain, because I think that our brain is our soul. And so the way that our brain, when we have a traumatic experience or we experience abuse, how our brain is going to capture what's happening, it's going to capture how we feel, and it's going to store those things together in our brain. And so one of the things that is interesting about this is that sometimes, you know, if you had early childhood trauma or trauma when you were younger, that abuse happened, then your brain's gonna carry that with you for your entire life. And that's not to say that even if you've experienced abuse as an adult, your brain is still gonna do the same exact thing. So the way that we heal that damage is really to. I would recommend first would be through counseling, you know, to go and. And talk with somebody who is a professional in the area of mental health. And I know that I talk about this sometimes about counseling because I love counseling. I think that it's one of the best things you could ever do for yourself. But when we've experienced abuse and trauma, it damages our brain and the way we perceive our world. And so through my counseling experience, I was able to take my broken way of thinking, and I could hand it off to somebody who had a healthy brain, and then she would make sense of it and give it back to me in a new perspective. And that was really the first time that I ever could see how my brain was shifting. You know, the patterns that were changing and the way I responded to things was changing. And I think that's one of the best things that you get from counseling, is that, you know, it blows open your little box, you know, your broken box that you're kind of stuck in because of that abuse and trauma. And so I think that that's so important as a. As really a first step. I mean, I would recommend that over any kind of a group thing at this point.

Yeah, I think what's coming to mind for me, and I've. I'll admit right now, I have not experienced sexual or physical abuse. I guess you could try to qualify verbal abuse, you know, just to some degree. I played athletics which coaches verbally abuse their, you know, players all the time. But I think one of the things I've. I've realized is how that healing, because you talk about how it really damages the soul. I think one of the coolest ways that I've seen healing happen is when we share our trauma and. And in a way that really just sharing it to process it with someone else. I'VE seen the Lord use my sharing and my trauma, and if. And have heard crazy trauma from other people as well share it, that then I'll just use that example. So someone comes to me and, you know, talks about their sexual abuse they had as a kid. For me, what that does is that opens up a line of communication or a line of vulnerability and honesty that I feel more connected to this person and feel like I now can share. What's really cool is in that moment, you've just created through sharing your trauma, a ministry opportunity that God's using your experience in your past. And yeah, it's a really dark experience, but it's. It's something that's being used for the benefit of other people, inviting them into sharing about their trauma and then them being able to heal that area of their soul. So I think it's not like you've been damaged and that's it. I'm sorry. And counseling is a huge first step. And I think that as you start to gain some traction and some healing there, that once you start to open up with other people outside of that, I think can do a lot of good for you and others.

Yeah. What I think about on this question is a phrase that I've heard you, heather, say it 100, you know, conferences. And that is that neurons that fire together wire together. And that's whether the experience was good or bad. And so what that means in situations of abuse is it's typically happening in some kind of relationship where there's already bonding that's taken place. A friend, a family member, someone that you did trust, that then inflicted on you sexual, emotional, physical abuse. And what happens that the brain bonds to that even in an unhealthy way. And so we can have bonding to unhealthy things that continues to impact us into our adulthood and not be aware that it's not because we're bad or evil or wicked. You know, for example, that if someone enjoys or finds they crave pain and sex, and maybe they start to trace back into their past and there was. There was sexual abuse that was painful. Their brain wired to those two things, pain and sex, and is still telling them, well, that's what you're supposed to feel. And so if we can become aware of that, it could really destigmatize the shame where maybe the person is thinking, well, I'm. I'm just dirty, or I'm perverted, or there's something wrong with me. It's like, no, I was wounded. And those wounds continue to impact the way I see life. And that's why what you said, Heather, therapy and group work is so important, because we need to really unravel the lies that have developed there and see how our brain was shaped so that we can invite God and others into a process of reshaping it. Because that's the other thing that comes to mind for me about the impact is just the way that it creates those core messages. That abuse leaves us feeling worthless, shameful, not good. And if we can start to identify the lies I've listened to because of the abuse, that's another area of healing. So there's one. There's healing needed, maybe for the memories itself and the unhealthy bonding, but there's also a need to heal those core messages because those may have tracked with us even more than the pain itself of what happened.

Next question. Let's do this.

Yeah. Good stuff.

This is good.

Everybody take a deep breath. That's a heavy one.

That was a heavy one. Thank you for that question.

Okay, so Gary is asking, is masturbation ever possible without lust?

That's a great question. You know, and I would say absolutely, because I've heard that many times that a person feels like they're not drawn to something sexual, but they're just thinking about how good it feels and that the pleasure of it is all that it's needed to have masturbation. But what's often tucked into this question is perhaps that makes it okay then. So I would encourage our listeners and Gary to think through. Even if we're masturbating without lust, it still may be contributing to unhealth in our life because it might be part of something that's very secretive and we're not telling people close to us. It could be a part of a pattern where we've become hooked into that feeling and not into a healthy relationship with our spouse if we're married. So even if we're asking the question, well, I didn't lust, is it okay? We still want to look at deeper things about is it creating patterns of habit or secrecy or shame? So, you know, to the larger question, are there circumstances where it may be okay, I think that's a conversation that you would want to take very seriously with your spouse if you're married or with group members. Because I've heard of situations where there's, you know, significant physical impairment of one spouse or really unique extenuating circumstances where in a healthy way, a couple has determined how that might happen and be free of lust and pornography. But I just. I would encourage caution with that area. Because in our human psyche, we're often looking for a way to justify a behavior and then say, oh, well, I didn't lust, so it's okay. Right? It's like, well, think about all the other factors that might be contributing to that before you determine whether it's okay or not.

Maybe a bad analogy, but here it comes.

Well, I'm bracing for this.

Yeah. No, this is just the way I think about it. If someone were to ask me the question, is eating an Oreo sinful? I would say, of course not. But I can tell you that when I was in really, and I still, I am. I'm toward. I think I'm further along on the journey with food, but there were moments in that where I felt like I would reach into the pantry to get an Oreo and would eat it right there in the pantry so that my wife wouldn't see me eating the Oreo. And if. Amy, you're just hearing this for the first time, I'm so sorry.

I'm an Oreo thief.

Yeah, well, but. But what's. What that revealed to me was that there was shame wrapped into that and there was that secrecy that I didn't want someone else to know that I wanted an Oreo. Again, not a sinful thing. However, for me, in that moment, I think it was the wrong decision, because it was. If I'm. If I'm willing to, even though I feel shame and I want to keep it secret, I'm still willing to do it. For me, it's more than just an Oreo. It's a way to numb out or experience or really heal or put a balm over some thing that I'm avoiding or not wanting to have to engage with. And so again, maybe a bad analogy, but for me, it's something that has been amoral, that eating an Oreo, like, go for it and make sure it's double stuffed. Like, it's. They're incredible. But. And for me, in that moment, I realized those things under the surface that it just wasn't right for me.

Yeah, you can be medicating pain and avoiding hard feelings whether you're using lust and pornography or not. And so that's what we want to be aware of, is some deeper patterns there.

Yeah.

Well. And really, even to address this conversation or this question as it pertains to women, because, I mean, women do struggle with lust, but I think that there are a lot of women who use masturbation and fantasy, which isn't necessarily lust motivated, but yet it still is creating unhealthy patterns and. Exactly. Yeah. And affecting their relationships. And so I think that that would be. That your answer or all of these answers would apply to women as well.

Yeah, and we get this question a lot. And to Nick's point that they're usually. This is not just a simple is it right or wrong question. There usually is a lot to this question. And we would just say Gary and anybody else who's thinking about it to explore those things. The next question was sent in by Greg and this is good. It's kind of a twist here. What can businesses or corporations do to find out if online pornography is impacting their employees contribution while they're on the clock?

Yeah, that's an interesting question. And I'll speak to it. You know, from my perspective, which I would make this disclaimer that I'm not a legal expert and I don't know HR stuff. And so you obviously need to be aware of what's permissible in your state and reporting kind of stuff. But I know many organizations and churches and ministries in particular that will create a standard that just says, you know, we recognize that pornography is not healthy and it's not an appropriate use of work time. And so they will make, you know, filtering software like Covenant Eyes just a mandatory part of people's work machines. And I think even if you're in a secular corporation of just creating some values for your staff culture that talks about how we use our time and making it clear, because maybe most businesses just don't even have that conversation and they only treat it as a punishment sort of thing that, well, this guy was caught with porn on his computer and got fired and then it comes up. But if, if with a staff culture, you could have conversations about making sure our time is well spent and valuable and why we make that inappropriate use of work time. So I think looking into things like that, and there's like I said, Covenant Eyes accountable to you ever. Accountable is all software that we would recommend and there's, I'm sure, lots of other technical things that people can do in terms of disabling Internet access and all that. But that's not my area of expertise. I would say from what I've seen, it's leaning into staff culture and providing. And I would encourage a corporation that considers that, offer it, treat it like a benefit to your employees to say, we're going to pay for it, it costs you nothing. But we want to make sure we're all being healthy online, that we're creating healthy staff culture and staff values. And so this is just something we all have. And the last thing I'd say is, as the leader, make sure you are leading the way to personalize it first and say, on all my devices, I have reporting software and I have three friends that get my weekly reports for where I'm going online because I just, I want my time to be valuable and well used. And I know pornography is a waste of my time and not what I want to spend my life on. So it's on my phone and my computer and it's just part of what we're going to do as a company. So if you're leading the way in your role, others are going to have a lot easier time following. But if it's one of those that, you know, do as I say, not as I do, people are going to see that pretty quick. And then it'll just become something that you've laid on them that they don't want to follow. So think about how you can create that healthy culture. It's good.

Really good.

Yeah. Next question.

Yeah, well, thanks. I'm sure there's more we could say, but Mikayla asked this question. It's kind of painting a scenario here. So listen to the question. She says, I'm currently in a serious dating relationship with a guy who is about a year into his recovery. He's in a group and I'm in a betrayal and beyond group. We're doing the work. It's hard, but not perfect. And we're committed and moving forward. So how do I move past close friends and family who don't understand the process being. And they're being concerned for me. They love me, they want the best for me. And in their minds, the best is someone who's not a recovering sex addict. I understand that they're just worried about what the future may hold. But it's really hard to move forward with the relationship when my friends and family are concerned and not excited for us. I just want to celebrate alongside the people I love. So what can Mikayla do?

This is a great question. It reminds me of being at a conference one time and this young woman came up and after being at the conference for over a day, and she came up and she said, you know what? I'm here with my fiance and I'm learning so much about sex addiction and really how serious it is. And we're engaged and I don't know if I should call off the engagement. And Ashley and I, she was talking to us both and we said, no, you have One of the good ones, you know, somebody who is going to say, this is my area of struggle, I want you to hear.

And they're working on it. Yeah.

And they told you, you already know about it. You're not married yet, but you know that this is their struggle. And. And they want to make sure that not only they're getting healthy, but. But you are having the support that you need. I think that that is a great way to start a relationship. When it comes to friends and family, I think that sometimes they don't necessarily understand what sex addiction is really all about. You know, they think that it's about somebody who has unhealthy, you know, or hypersexuality or something like that, and they don't really know the foundation of it. And so it might be something that, you know, you could invite them in to the conversation a little bit or give them a podcast to listen to or, you know, something that is going to maybe expand their worldview so that they can say, oh, okay, I see that this is really about you guys being healthy before you start your life together, and we want to celebrate that with you, too. But I think that sometimes they just. They don't have the right information, and so they're afraid.

Yeah, I think I feel defensive for you, Mikayla, because I think that people who approach this conversation like, we don't. We don't think you should be in a relationship. You need to be with. With a good guy. And on all that really don't understand the brokenness that we all carry. And I understand that we all have forms of that where we don't see what we don't see. We're in denial about certain things in our story. But I think that the fact that you're working on it together, that you both are in recovery, speaks more to your character and your humility. That. Look, you. You realize this is an area that needs to get addressed. And so one of the things that I would do, it's really easy to focus on the negative, but I would just ask that you would spend a little bit of time focusing on the potential future you're crafting with your. This guy that not only will you guys be healthier, but your kids, like, Lord willing, you guys get married and you guys have 18 kids, and they're all amazing. Like, maybe not 18. Hopefully that didn't throw you off. But, like, the idea, though, of this is painting a future and allow your story to be what helps your family and your friends see the change or see the shift. I think that sharing. And again, we've talked about this in sharing our story, we don't just walk into a room and be like, all right, guys, I'm going to tell you about my story and you're all going to have your minds changed. Like, it's not that, but it's more of as you're connecting dots, as you're experiencing healing, as he's experiencing freedom, as your relationship is growing in intimacy and closeness and connectedness, you share those things. And guess what? As you share that, no one can argue your experience, period. No one can. And so I think that that's just some perspective I'd offer.

Yeah, I think it's an area where stats can maybe help out a little bit. If you're able to say, you know, this is something 67 to 70% of men struggle with. And when you're talking young adult men, you know, 20s and under, the numbers go into the 80s and even the high 80s for, for regular pornography use. And just to say, I would rather be with someone who's aware of their issues and working on them, then who acts like everything's okay and I only find out later what we're dealing with. And so if you can find kind, healthy ways to bring that up with your friends and family, I think you. Back to what you were saying, Heather. It may actually be a way that we're helping educate other people about how common and prevalent this is. And moving towards health is a good thing. It's not like he's the one guy out of a hundred that happens to have a struggle in his sexuality. It's like he's maybe the one guy out of 100 that's actually dealing with it. And so to help them see we're moving towards safety and long term health in our relationship, Isn't that better than two people who just live in La La Land and think, oh, it'll all be perfect and wonderful, but aren't facing their issues. So I think to maybe refer to some of those things and, and then at the end of the day, the other thing is just keep pursuing your health because the healthier you get and your boyfriend gets, it's impossible to hide. And the family and friends, I think will come around and be like, wow, I maybe didn't get it at first, but there's something going on with him and with you guys that seems really, really healthy. And I'm proud of you. So I think if you're consistent and persevere, you will win over a lot of your friends and family.

Yeah, that's good. So this question is anonymous, and it says, how do we know what technology to cut out when we're struggling with sobriety?

Yeah.

Another question. I think we get a lot. The first thing that came to mind for me was just start with things that have tripped you up in the past. If you have a smartphone and you've identified that, that's really where you keep going. You need to evaluate, do I need to get rid of this phone? Do I need to put accountability software on it? Do I need to get rid of certain apps and give the password to someone else? Things like that. But I think when it comes to technology, because we have this tool called a tech action plan, one of the questions on it is, think about the ways you're already trying to get around the plan you're putting together. And I think it's such a great question. So I think that. Start with what? Yes, with the things that have tripped you up in the past. But then once you start to kind of weed out those things, like, one of the things that I did when I first started recovery was get rid of all the movies that had nudity in it or any sexual content in it. And what's funny is as I got rid of that, I'm like, all right, what are some things that are a little further back from the line but are still going to give me that fix or still feel, you know, we look for, like, novelty. That idea. I think that that's the next question is, what are those things with those apps? Like, well, you know, the search feature on Instagram, it's not pornography, but there's a lot of bathing suits or lots of this, this, this. Or I could just go search Google Images or whatever. I think that we need to have those. When answering this question, have those really honest conversations. And I would suggest you have a conversation with someone who's a trusted friend, an ally, probably not your spouse, if you're starting out on recovery, that would just be my take. But having a. An accountability friend or a group member throw these things by them and give that friend, before that conversation even starts, give that friend permission to just call you out and be like, nope, that's not good enough. That's like you're. You're tiptoeing around that. Stop it. Like, come back to center. What are we going to do? So I think those are the two things I'd start with. And then including someone else.

Yeah. I always ask in my groups, I'll say if. If you knew you were going to relapse this week, I mean, let's say I have a magic crystal ball and I can forecast, man, I'm sorry to say it, but this week you relapse, what's the most likely way it would happen? And almost every time you can pretty quickly see, like, oh, well, it'd probably be this and this device and this. You know, like, we can just. We can kind of see where our major danger points are. So then it's asking the question, what do you need to do to eliminate that danger? It's the analogy I use, is cut the head off the snake. Because if the head can't bite you, you can deal with the rest of the body a lot easier. So if it is your smartphone in the bathroom, I think it's saying more than just, well, I won't take my phone in the bathroom. That'd be at least a good step. But even going further to say for right now, maybe I can't have a smartphone and I disable the data and the Internet on it, or I get an entirely different phone that I hope they still make them. I'm sure they do. But things like that, that maybe for the moment feel drastic, but it's not going to be a forever decision. What we're looking at is creating this. This zone of sobriety where you can start to get traction and then you can have more educated conversations about what you're able to handle. But for right now, it's saying, what. What is your greatest threat? And completely disable it. Because if you don't have a television, you're not going to relapse on cable tv. If, if you don't have access to wireless Internet in your bedroom, you're not going to get on the wireless Internet and have a problem. So I know that can feel restrictive, but I always try to bring up that perspective, too, of what's your freedom worth? Because if you can cut out your main access point and find freedom and really get traction. And you guys have heard me tell this story at a lot of conferences. Like, I've never, ever had someone come back to me and say that they regretted creating a guardrail like that. That was too extreme, you know, saying, oh, I wish I would have kept my phone or kept the cable. No one has ever, ever said that. But I've had tons of people come and say, I regret that I didn't make a more drastic move sooner because I had to relapse again and cause the pain all over again to see that I am powerless when I get to this point. So I think it's just having some self, honest self conversations to say, what's my biggest threat? And then not just kind of deal with it a little bit, but like get it out of the picture until you're several months down the road and can then analyze, okay, what's appropriate and what's not.

Yeah. And if you have a family, you know, take this on with your entire family because there's no reason why you guys shouldn't be getting healthy together. You know, where you use a family Internet use plan and you decide that, okay, these areas, we're not going to have technology or, you know, we're not going to have our phones in the bedrooms or whatever it is, but so that you don't feel like you're having to do it alone, but that, you know, you're providing health for your entire family.

Yeah.

Cool.

Couple more questions. This one is from Randy. How can a man whose primary love language is touch maintain healthy connection and physical intimacy with his spouse if she has physical limitations or health issues that limit or restrict her sexually? Something like maybe recovering from surgery or post menopause?

I don't think I've ever met a couple where each of their love languages are the same. Yeah, that would be so great. I know. It would make marriage so easy.

Would it though? Like, I don't know, maybe it might not.

I don't know. But it's one of those things too, that when I can totally empathize with Randy because this is a legitimate need and for him to maybe have to start looking at how to. How do I get this need met in a different way or maybe not even get met. You know what I mean? That's really a hard place to be in your marriage and especially if your wife has some physical limitations or with menopause, that can be super hard. I would recommend too that you keep that line of communication open with your spouse because I think that that's going to create emotional intimacy in your relationship of just being able to talk about those expectations and find solutions. That can also happen through counseling and through, you know, a group is a great place to, you know, be able to talk about your needs in a healthy way and other people might have solutions. I did want to speak specifically to the idea of menopause because one of the things that is so interesting about menopause is that women, when they start this process, they've never experienced this before either. You know what I mean? They don't know. They don't give you a menopause playbook or whatever that's going to tell you exactly what's going to happen and how long this is going to last. And, and so, you know, for women who, you know, it seems like it's overnight and then it lasts for a long time, but they are experiencing mood swings and hot flashes and night sweats and that sounds terrible, honestly, it does. And sleep disturbance and then, you know, their body is changing. So now sex is not enjoyable and it's painful and you know, I mean all of those things are happening and they're having to deal with it as they come. And so I think that it's really hard for women and there's, there's not even enough information out there. I think when it comes to managing the relationship. Focus on the Family has a great article that says it's called what husbands need to know about Menopause. And I've done some research on this and it's just a great way for men to just kind of anticipate what's going to happen because for a lot of men, they feel rejected and that's not their wives intent. But yet at the same time, you know, she has a lot going on and you know, you're going weeks without sex and you don't know why and you take that on in an emotional way and it's no one's fault. And at the same time it's a real feeling that a lot of men have. And so just being able to deal with that and talk about it again with your spouse or with other guys or, you know, something is going to help you through that process. Because and I'm specifically with menopause, it's not that your wife goes through this change and then she goes back to normal. This is the change. This is going to be the rest of her life. And so navigating that is sometimes kind of tricky.

Yeah, yeah. I love those perspectives, Heather. And just making sure that couples have those conversations, open, honest communication. Another thing that comes to mind for me is if your love language is touch, making sure we don't confine that to the bedroom for a married couple. And as speaking as someone whose love language of touch is way up on my list, it's looking for how does that same feeling or need get met in a variety of ways. You know, often what we think of as being a need for physical connection is actually deeper than physical. It's a need for emotional connection. Intimacy. We talk about this a lot in our conferences. That intimacy isn't just physical in nature. It's that bonding with another person on a deep level. Of I know you, you know me. I feel safe with you, you feel safe with me. We're able to reveal our hurts and fears and weaknesses and be accepted for who we are. Like, that's a much deeper intimacy. And maybe what we've learned to connect in our brain as intimacy. Only being physical actually is deeper than that. So I think it's looking for opportunity to create touch that has nothing to do with physical intimacy. It's going for a walk through our neighborhood and holding hands. It's watching the Food Network and just leaning on each other's shoulder while we're watching something and just being close and in something together that doesn't have to be sexual at all actually can really meet a lot of that need for touch and being, you know, physically close to someone, even if it doesn't turn sexual. So that can be a challenge, particularly for men or women that have a history of some sort of sexual addiction or really banking on that. My need for touch always leads to sex, so it is some relearning of the brain. But if we'll be willing to go through that process and be patient, I think we find that that need can be met more consistently, actually, just through the normal kind of touch that. That doesn't have to be sexual.

Yep. I think back to an episode we did with Bob and Rebecca Vandermeer, where they talked about sex during recovery that you. That there was one point where. And I've experienced this, too, in my marriage, where every time Bob was. Whenever Rebecca would reach out or there are couples that have this happen. Whenever a wife touches a husband, he thinks, oh, okay, it's on. Here we go. Like, now it's gonna happen. And it. It's. It's a faulty thinking in his brain that connects every physical touch to this much. Means she wants to have sex or be physical. And there has to be almost this. And they talked about it as if it's this abstinence period where you're actually retraining each other. Like, I'm gonna hug you right now, and this is not leading to sex later? Like, that sort of thing. And I think that that's been something that's helpful for me, too, where it's like, am I just touching my wife because I feel like I want to pursue her sexually, or am I touching her because I love her and I just want to show it through affection? So I think that asking that question to me. Start to rewire that and help with that connection with your spouse.

Yeah. Yeah. So good. Okay, last question, you guys. Ready? All right. Our friend Josh T. Asks, is it necessary for me to be 100% free for a specific period of time prior to getting engaged or married, or is it more important to be on the pathway of healing? As long as both sides are in agreement to the pathway or the nature of recovery, Is it better to get married to equip each other with the appropriate biblical authority and influence within a married covenant, or to put off that covenant until full freedom from pornography is achieved? And first off, let me just say what an educated, high level question. Good job on that one, Josh.

That's just another simple question to answer with three words. Okay, so my perspective is I got healthy sexually early on in my marriage. I was just talking to a friend just yesterday about the crisis that he found himself in. And I have never experienced that as far as being in marriage. And I'm so thankful for that. So I would say out of my experience, the earlier you can get healthy, the better. Now, for many, if not most of the people that we help, it feels like that's the reality, that it's in crisis. I'm already in marriage or in a relationship that's been destroyed or is being crushed by this. And so I would say that it's not absolutely necessary. But if this is an issue and you're getting into a relationship, engagement, marriage, you better start working on this stuff now because if you don't, it's going to blow up later. And I know you can't say that with absolute certainty, but I'm saying it with absolute certainty that your relationship will be impacted to a very high level by this if you don't start to get healing now. And so if you're not in a relationship, keep doing your work, keep going into recovery. If you're in a relationship right now, keep doing the work, keep being in recovery, and if you're married, same thing, just continue to do it. Because I think that it's about progression and understanding that we're always moving toward health. So that's just my take.

Yeah, I think that sometimes we set ourselves up to fail a little bit if we think that someday I'm going to be completely free of this, that I'm never going to have any relapse, I'm never going to have any issue. And I think that that's an unrealistic expectation because we talked about it earlier, that we're sexual beings and it's part of who we are and it's our identity. And so having the mindset, though, like you were saying, Trevor, of That I'm going to pursue health and this isn't just something that I'm going to cross a finish line, but this is going to be part of my lifestyle. This is my lifestyle change. This is how I'm going to live out my sexuality in everything that I do. And having that kind of mindset, I think could be helpful in this situation.

Yeah, it's remembering that freedom and purity are a journey, not a destination. Because when I hear someone say, do I have to be 100%, 100% porn free? That to me is destination. Kind of thinking like, okay, I've arrived, now I've achieved freedom when no, it's a journey, we continue on. Because what can happen in that place of like, well, I'm 100% free. But wait a minute, I had a lingering gaze on that attractive person. Oh, no, no, I'm not free. And did I pursue looking at that commercial that was provocative? And now we're stuck in this free, not free arrival mindset when it's looking more at what's happening in my journey. And so I could see some situations where it really depends on what kind of conversations and communication is happening with your potential spouse. Because let's say you've achieved six months of sobriety from pornography and masturbation, but no one else knows. And you've never had that conversation with your fiance or potential spouse. Like, I would say that's not actually that healthy versus maybe the other person. That there's a little bit of a pattern still that maybe every month or two there's a relapse occurring, but there's healthy conversation taking place, there's engagement with a group, there's changes being made to our personal guardrails and, and how we interact with others. Like, well, to me, that's actually healthier, even though it's happened more recently than the person that achieved some sobriety level. So I think that's what we want to be aware of, is that if we're just creating some sobriety privately that this dating partner knows nothing about, that's not necessarily representative of health. So when there's healthy communication and growth taking place, to me that's a lot more important. And then it really is that person that you're dating or engaged with that some of that conversation, they need the dignity of choice and having a say in that. Because just like you were saying, Trevor, if you achieve some level of sobriety prior to marriage, but then maybe later in life start to struggle somewhere, like, well, yeah, I struggled when we were dating. Like, how did I never know this. And that's the feeling for so many women of like, do I even know this person? Because there's this whole part of this life we never talked about. So I think a healthy relationship is one where the closer you're getting to marriage, the more those things are on the table. And so that the person knows when they say I do, they're saying it in confidence that I know who I'm saying, I do, too. And if that's where you're at as a couple and both of you agree, we're in a healthy place. We're on the road to freedom and health, man, Jump. You know, if you're there, get married.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And it just. This question can be applied to so many different areas, like, do I have to be at this level before? God bless as me with marriage. And it's just a wrong perspective. There are terrible people who are not healthy who get married all the time. Right. Like, I was one of them. Oh, well, okay.

Hopefully I wasn't a terrible person, but I was not healthy. I'll say that I was not healthy in this area of my life.

Like, I wasn't a healthy parent before I became a parent. I feel like I still suck at being a parent. You know what I mean? Anyways, we love these episodes because we're able to answer real questions. And again, I love the raw and the real nature of the questions we answered today. We hope that today's FAQ episode really brought light to those questions, and we also honestly hope it fuels more questions. If you want to submit questions to our future FAQ episodes, here's what we want you to do. Email your questions to podcasturedesire.org you can also message or DM us on social media with your questions, or you can post your question on social media using the hashtag pdfaq Head. Thanks for being with us answering these questions.

Yeah, pleasure to be here.

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