166 - How To Talk To Your Spouse About Sex

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues.

Hey, hey, hey.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 166 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

If you like to waltz with potatoes up and down the grocery aisle, have we got a show for you.

Vegita. Right? Yeah. Vegetables.

Everybody sing along.

That's right.

Well, you know, I was thinking right now we're not allowed to waltz down grocery store aisles with anybody. So it's like potatoes are the only companion we can have. So that song just seems really fitting for the times that we're in.

It's fair, it's fair. All right, so we've got really a good episode and a raw episode that I really enjoyed. But a couple quick things before we jump into it. If you, if you're not subscribed to the podcast, do it. Don't wait any longer. You can find us on all the major platforms. And little bonus, if you give us a review, it helps other people find. The podcast means a lot to us. And I'll just tell you personally, one of my favorite things is going on and seeing some of the reviews and just hearing the impact that two, three, four people sitting around a table can have when it comes to this topic. And so even for us, I count that as a win that people are being impacted by it. And so your reviews help people see the value of what we do and helps them find the podcast. So please continue to do that and then also follow us on social media if you are not already Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. We are Desire pdmi. If you like to consume video content, we have some of the episodes up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. And lastly, we are man, we are really, really excited about our Pure Desire Summit. First ever Pure Desire Summit. But Nick, things have changed recently.

Yeah, as we've announced, it's now going to be an on online virtual event. Which is sad for those of us that were looking forward to gathering, but we're just pivoting with the realities of our country and our state and needing to follow the rules. And in following those rules, it made the in person gathering really impractical and darn near impossible. But we're super excited about this event because we think it's going to be just a great rallying point of encouragement for those that are somewhere in the Pure Desire process. So if you're just starting a group or leading a group or you've been out of group for a few years, but you're connected to this community. I think you're just going to hear a lot of things that put some wind in your sails and remind you why this is such an important ministry that we're a part of.

Yes. So September 11th through 18th, it's a week long virtual event. So we're going to be releasing sessions every single day. And you can go and Register now@puredesire.org summit. Make sure you get that. We may also allow you to have lifetime access maybe to these sessions as well in the Future. So go PureDesire.org summit and register now. So the good episode that we had today was around a topic that so many people I think want to talk about but struggle and don't understand. And it really what we're talking about today is how to talk to your spouse about sex.

Yeah. And as you mentioned, it can be kind of raw and personal. And I think that's because for so many of us we've not had this modeled. We don't really know what to expect or what it looks like. And there may be personal hurt that's come there ways that as a couple we've not connected with each other well. And so it can be a hard door to open. But I hope that as people listen to the episode, as they listen to Dan and Jen's vulnerability, that they'll really find some new footing to just to start talking, to communicate about something that is, it is personal. But it's also essential that we're able to talk about it because it's an area where we can really grow, we can develop as a couple and I think we all can improve. So it's great to listen in and get some ideas for our marriage and.

Whether you're single, engaged, married, married, married for a really long time. This is going to be a beneficial conversation that we have. So enjoy the episode. Dan and Jen, thanks for being back with us. We appreciate it.

Thanks for having us.

Yeah, glad to be here.

What many people won't know because this will come out a little later. We are recording these in the midst of the COVID 19 stuff. And so we're trying to if we need to spit or we need to sneeze, we're going to turn around.

Well, they will know because you just told them.

Right.

So now everybody knows.

Yeah, that's the whole point. Okay. So today we're talking about really a topic that obviously every person is interested in and especially married couples. We're talking today about talking to your spouse about sex. So I personally am excited to have this conversation because I've been married for almost five years, and it's to the point now where I feel like there is room to grow in the area of how to talk about this with your spouse. And so I'm excited to dive into it with you guys. Let's start with this. Why is it important to talk about sex with your spouse?

I thought Jen had a quote prepared in which. Which is a good lead in.

Yeah, you know, here we go. Let's. Let's take the words of the wise, salt and peppa. And I believe the quote is, let's talk about sex, baby. Let's talk about you and me. Let's talk about all the good things and all the bad things that can be. Let's talk about sex. Okay.

And there's the episode. Good work, you guys. Great heavens.

Great job. And lastly, never stop being held.

I'm just kidding.

Wait, what was the question?

So why. Yeah, like, I mean, it's obvious that communication is important in relationship. I think everybody knows that who's ever been in a romantic or intimate relationship. But talking about sex, why is that important in a relationship?

Well, it's the very, you know, the sexual relationship between a husband and wife is very. It is a reflection between the emotional intimacy between a husband and wife. So. And it's what. The frequency, the connection that's in the bedroom itself speaks volumes about how you are connecting emotionally with your spouse. So that alone, that direct correlation, I think is sure.

Yeah. And as the most vulnerable subject that we may have to deal with if you don't talk about it, there's probably a lot of unspoken expectations, assumptions, things like that that we all know can bring some pretty negative consequences, especially in the recovery process. Absolutely.

And. Or even several years into the recovery process as well.

There's more baggage with. With sex than probably most things. So.

Yeah, you know, I talked to a lot of couples that I think as they entered into marriage, they were more likely to communicate about sex, you know, as they were nearing marriage and what do we expect and what's it going to be like? And then maybe in that first year or two of being newly married, there's kind of that rhythm of figuring each other out and what do we like and what don't we like? And the danger I think couples might make is like, that's kind of the last time they really talked about the bedroom and sex. And they just now kind of assume that we know one another. But There's a real flaw there because we continue to grow and change as people, and we know that relationally. But I think we need to recognize that's also true of our sex life together, that it's not just, oh, we figured it out eight years ago and now we're good to go. That you continue to grow and change as people. What you like, what you prefer, what you don't like. Those things will adjust and morph over the course of a marriage. And so we have to continue in that place of learning our spouse, just like we do with them as a human being. I think as we understand how to connect sexually, it doesn't just happen. And I really think that's one of the flaws that our culture gives us is it's just going to come naturally. It doesn't need to be thought about or talked about like we just do it. And, I mean, in a sense, you can try that. But then, as you were saying, Dan, what usually happens is there's a lot of unmet expectations. There's a lot of baggage that comes in. There's hurt that can happen if we're never talking about it. Those problems have a way of getting amplified into the rest of our marriage.

And I think that shame is what covers those, because what you don't talk about tends to cover shame. And so that's one of the things I've been thinking about, too, is growing up in Christian homes where this isn't modeled or isn't shown very well. You grow up with an expectation that there is a little bit of, you know, maybe some pockets of shame here and there in this topic. And so when you don't talk about it, you don't realize that what you're doing is covering it with shame even more by not even going into it at all.

Well, realistically, how many of us had any conversation in our home about how to discuss it with your spouse? I know the only. The only time that sex was really even discussed in my home was don't get pregnant. At least that's what I remember. Sorry, Mom.

Right.

Which it is. Yeah. But let alone being given the tools and how to. To relate to my spouse and talk to my spouse about it, I mean, there essentially was no role model on how to even feel comfortable on the subject itself.

Yeah.

So why in the world would I think that it would even come naturally if it would. If it had never even been discussed in. When everything was being formulated in my mind and in my heart and all that, you know?

Yeah. Even like I remember there used to be the Dr. Ruth Show. Dr. Ruth was this little tiny, you know, lady that. And she was the sex doctor and she had a TV show. And even that was like, don't watch that. Right? If you watch that, that's like, you know, you're, you're making a statement about your faith in Christianity and commitment to God or you're a pervert or. Yeah. Or like, so it's like there's. There was under no circumstances was there, like, hey, at least you should address it. It was literally, don't talk about it. Listening. Yeah, anything.

So we're already getting into it a little bit. But if it's so important that we talk about sex and communicate well in our marriages, why is it so hard for couples? Because I think, I mean, I don't know any survey that's been done on this, but in my experience and in talking with couples, this is not common at all to have open, healthy conversation about our sex life. So why is it so hard for couples to do this?

Well, I think if you look at the times that you've been super vulnerable and someone has said something even remotely negative, especially in this area, how many times do you, like, want to go back? Especially if the message throughout your life has been, let's not talk about it anyway, and then you're like, I'm gonna throw a little something out there. And they're like, shut down.

It's so personal. It is very.

Yeah, yeah. Exposing our intimate thoughts. You can be self critical. You can feel small, you can feel unsafe, you can fear judgment, you can fear rejection. And in, in the. Recovering from sex addiction in relationship to your spouse. It can bring up a lot of, stir up a lot of, of your partner's anxiety.

Right.

So who wants to go there? You know, it's, it's difficult to go there, but I think, I think the steps to go in there really take place before actually going into the bedroom and having sex.

Well, and I mean, for me, kind of going back to what I said earlier, the culture I grew up in, it wasn't modeled, right. That this is something that you talk about. And not that my parents needed to have their conversations about their sex life in front of me as their child, but that there was an expectation of this is what's normal in relationship. But then also, like, I'm just thinking, you watch movies, you watch anything in the media, and people hook up for the first time and they know exactly what the other person wants and they both orgasm right at the same time. And then it's just this, like, mountaintop experience, and that's not realistic. And so what you're taught, though, is that you'll just figure it out or you'll just automatically know. And I think that that's actually what gets our culture to the point where it's like, you need to test out the car before you actually buy it. Hence having sex before you get married. Make sure you're sexually quote, unquote compatible, because if you don't naturally know what this other person likes, then you guys aren't. Aren't a good couple or gonna have a good relationship.

And being sexually compatible has very little to do with the bedroom, Right?

Totally. But that's the thing. That's the misconception.

Yeah. I think for a lot of people too, it comes down to a mindset. Because we may have grown up in a world or environment that led us to believe that sex was very worldly or it was carnal and it wasn't really something that was a part of our faith or our following of Christ. And if that's where we start from, then even to talk about sex is kind of. It's wrong or bad or dirty. And so we do it, but we don't really know how to feel about it. So there's got to be a mindset shift of saying, this is God's gift to a married couple. This is God's idea. Like, God didn't create humans then see, Adam and Eve have sex, oh my gosh, what are they doing?

That's not what I mean. That's not what I meant.

It was his plan. And so I think for some of us, there is an acceptance of boy to have a healthy, enjoyable, fun. You know, something I look forward to in my marriage, sex life for both the husband and wife is God's desire for us. And if that's our mindset, well, then talking about it can be at a place of, this is good, this is healthy, this is right, versus feeling shameful to even bring it up. So I think sometimes we have to look at how do I really feel about sex? Because back to what you used the word shame, Trevor. If our experience, particularly having a negative sexual history or mistakes we've made or, you know, struggles with pornography and lust have made us feel bad about our sexuality, we may carry that into even the healthy sexuality of our marriage. So we need to address that mindset and make sure that when we think about sex within marriage, that we really have a positive, affirming, God given joy towards it. Because anything conversation becomes more natural.

Yeah. So let's just say that someone's listening or a couple is listening to this episode and they want to start having those conversations. Maybe there is shame, some unmet expectations, some woundedness from being vulnerable in the past. What are some suggestions on how people can start to have the right types of conversations around sex?

I think not having it in the bedroom.

Pre or post.

Pre or post? Yeah, potentially pre. I don't know. It's. I think there is a lot of pressure in that moment. So if you can have it outside the bedroom where you have even some. Some guidelines or parameters, like, we know this is vulnerable. So I'm going to share some things and I'm going to ask that you listen that we don't respond right away. This is me sharing my heart. Because a lot of times I think when you start talking about this, the fear is, what does this say about me? What is this communicating about me as a person? So really establishing some guidelines outside the bedroom to talk about it. And be.

Pure Desire uses the acronym hold. You know, being hungry, angry, lonely or tired. Those are good times to not only not make big decisions in your life, but not discuss the subject. I think that's something to really consider. Something that Dan and I just implemented this week in regards to this subject was we've decided to get together weekly and actually put a pulse on our sex life. Because going back to the emotional climate that our relationship has, I think when our sex life is healthy, there is engagement, there's laughter, there's eye contact, and it truly is a reflection of our relationship in that moment when it's unhealthy, there isn't laughter, there isn't a ton of contact, and it's just disconnecting, I guess you can even say. So what we've implemented this week is we've decided that we're going to take one day a week and we're going to get a pulse on our sex life and we're going to talk about what's working. So we're going to start with what's working, what's going well.

Positive front.

Right, Right. I mean, really, like, he needs to know what. What works for me and I need to know what's working for him. But then we're also going to talk about what's not working. So, like, this isn't. I don't really prefer this or, you know, maybe do that differently, or this is where I am in my head this week, and for some reason I just can't get out of there. So can we just set that aside? Or, I don't know. And then we also decided we're going to share a fearful emotion because going back to that intimate connection when. When I think about the funnest seasons of our life where sex was really good, it always included having fun and. But what keeps us from that is the fear of being known on any. On all spectrums of our relationship. It could be financial, it could be with a family, but most certainly in the bedroom. I've just recently started to share with Dan not specifics of where I struggle in my mind, but letting him know that I am struggling in my mind, even during. I don't say it during sex, but I will say, okay, recently in our sex life, this is where I've been struggling in my mind. You know, I think Ashley alluded to having a bunch of tabs open, and John. John helps her close out all those tabs. You know, but for a woman, especially just speaking from a woman's point of view, sharing with my husband where I am struggling in my mind has been incredibly vulnerable. It's created immense amount of fear, but it's also opened myself up to letting him in an emotional way that I really just haven't before. So those are the three things that we've just started this week. And creating an emotional climate that will lead hopefully to more connection in the bedroom itself.

Yeah, I would just really affirm what you guys have said and the idea of not having the conversation when there's the pressure to then go and have sex. Do it at a time when you're both in a good mental space, the kids aren't interrupting and running all over. You can just sit and with no pressure, with no need to, like, okay, now let's do it. Just talk and be real. I think that's so important. And one of the things that is good to practice is just healthy communication. And you're alluding to this, Dan, of how we share how we're feeling. And Les and Leslie Parrott, who are marriage authors, they have a great little tool in communication that they just call xyz. And I think in this kind of situation, it can help that they say the pattern of communication is to say, in situation X, when you do Y, I feel Z. And so you're really focusing on the Z is how I feel. But it keeps it simple. When in this situation X, when you do Y, I feel Z. And it's a way to bring something out that isn't attacking or confronting, but it's just to clearly say, here's what's going on. And here's how I'm thinking. And then the partner, you can take your turn and say, oh, okay, I really appreciate that. And in situation X, when you do Y, I have felt Z. And to create that conversation around really healthy sharing and not feeling put on the spot or attacked for what I am or am not doing right in the bedroom.

Another thought too, just kind of a practical thing is to ask, what do you like or what do you prefer? I think that, you know, we've talked a lot about, about this on staff, a lot about this on our podcast, that if you're a spouse, you like bringing pleasure to your spouse.

Right.

Like, you want to do more of what makes them feel good and what they enjoy. And so, and I think Heather's the one who talks about it like wives talking to your husbands, like, hey, can we practice this this week? No husband's gonna be like, no, that sounds dumb. They're gonna be like, uh huh. Yep, right now. Cool, let's go. So, like, and it's not just that men are that way. I think that when there's a healthy sex, a sex life going on, it's both spouses, but asking questions and being honest and not being afraid to share the xyz because your spouse will want to know that, because they want to know how to better please you or how to better have that experience with you.

I love that. I love that you actually, you know, asking the question, because it would. It's very difficult for me to speak up. Like, there's such a vulnerability and maybe an element of shame for me to say what I like, because I still have some shame connected to the area of sex. But if Dan were to ask me, what do you like? I probably get a big lump in my throat and, like, have to process for just a second. But it would open that door to me actually sharing it rather than me the vulnerability of bringing it up. Yeah. Opening that door. Say, hey, what do you like? Because that's a lot less vulnerable to ask than the actual just saying it. You know, I think, well, and I.

Feel like asking the question is creating a safe spot for you to share where you may not know if it's safe if you just start coming out saying, hey. By the way, this is, you know, good point.

Yeah. So as we give some suggestions on how to start this communication, what are some of the pitfalls or things that you would really encourage couples to avoid when starting to talk more about sex and their sex life?

I don't like it when you.

You make me feel sick.

When you right, like in the middle or right after, just like by the way, don't like that.

Yeah, that's probably not a good idea.

No, no, it's not. Actually. This is a great question because a lot of women that I speak with really, really struggle with libido or when they're in the process of forgiving their spouse for some of the actions that they've taken within the marriage. This is a tricky, tricky subject. And a lot of people like, how do I just get started? You know? So I think one of the things that's important, what not to do is not to create unrealistic expectations. Have expectations where you're both on the same page. Understanding again where you are in relationship to one another outside the bedroom and understanding how while you're in a process that the, that that sex between the two of you is a process as well. So making sure the expectations are realistic. So not having unrealistic expectations would be one thing.

Yeah. And then the blame that goes along with it, either in internal, you know, where you're just speaking internally or externally where you're speaking it to the person. You know, we're not here to blame or you should. It's not going to help if we.

Blame the other and not making assumptions about what the other person's thinking. Yeah, that's a really big one.

Yeah. It's funny too. Growing up playing sports and we talk about this, there's so many people who live a performance based life. When you're entering into this conversation, make sure you're in a healthy enough spot where that's not the filter you're walking into the conversation with, where it's like you're not asking how am I doing sexually? That's not actually the question. It's what do you like, what can I do that you like or you prefer? And that is more of focused on their needs, rather on your performance. Because that I think it just. What's funny is, is there's this like, it feels circular in that sense that if I am unwilling to kind of drop that performance base as I enter in, then what their answer is going to do is create more shame for me and then I'm not going to want to share what works for me. I'm not going to want to address this conversation anymore. And then bas, the conversation drops off and you're not able to enter into it. So I feel like that's even something I'm being challenged right now to think of is that when having conversations about sex to make sure that it's actually not focused on me and my performance. It's more focused on the needs of my spouse and bringing pleasure to my spouse. How can I better do that? Because that's more of like a goal that I'm working toward rather than a standard I'm not meeting.

Talk about a win win. If you're both, the goal is to please one another. That's a win win scenario.

Well, it's really the biblical model that we're given, like Eph 5, that Christ loved us and gave himself up for us and calls us into that same self giving love of I'm in it for you even as you're in it for me and how that leads to the kind of pleasure that he intends for us to have. You know, when I think of what to avoid, I think we need to make sure that we're not using these conversations as a way to get what we want or to try to pressure our spouse into something that is really on our minds. Because I've seen that happen even in my own history of like if I could just figure out and kind of manipulate the conversation and share how much I've been wishing we would do this more and that I think we really need to be attuned that when we make our spouse feel pressured, it's never going to lead to a good outcome. I think it's appropriate to try and explore maybe emotionally why they react to something or why something makes them feel less valued or unsafe or you know, because of our sexual histories, our family of origin, things that happened to us growing up. There could be all sorts of things related to the marriage bedroom that maybe one spouse or the other doesn't feel great about or just doesn't fit the way they want to be loved. And I think we have to respect that and be okay with it. And if it's something that we really wish we could have in our sex life, we may need to be willing to just leave that with God. Let it be one of those expectations that says it's not my spouse's job to meet my expectations. And if this is something that for them they're not comfortable with, to trust God with that, but lean into what they are comfortable with and what we are hearing from them. Because if, if that's our focus, I think in the end we're going to find the kind of joy and fulfillment we want in our marriage and not just be holding up. Well, if they would only do this more, then I'd be happy because that's really a false way to approach Our sex life.

Yeah. Because ultimately more fulfillment will come from meeting your spouse's needs and bringing them pleasure than you receiving your own.

Okay, so I have a question. I know I don't usually get to be the question asker.

This isn't on the list.

I'm going to risk and ask a question. So what about when a marriage is in recovery and you're pulling everything back initially to recreate healthy sexual intimacy, and one spouse says to the other, you've taken this away from me, and until you give it back, things aren't going to be healthy. So this is essentially your fault because you've taken this away from me. What do you say to that? This is something that is actually fairly common in this process. What do you say to that couple who. One man feels like she's taken it away or he's taken it away, and the other spouse is like, well, I can't until these other things are in place. What do you. What do you say to those people?

Yeah, obviously this whole area is so difficult, I mean, to begin with, let alone when you add betrayal and woundedness and trauma into the mix. And that's why I think it's so important that these conversations are not being had in isolation. Like, this is the only personal conversations we have. Like, hopefully these are happening in conjunction with the growth that you are leaning into with your group. And if you're in a place like that as a couple, the counseling you're doing together with someone who's a licensed sex addiction professional, who really knows what they're doing in this area. Because that's often my response to this question is those are so tricky because they're often driven by deeper emotional stuff. And it's the way as human beings were complex. Like, nothing's just simple. Like, if you do this, I'll do that. There's emotion behind it and history and other thoughts and how this relates to it and how this makes me feel. And. And to navigate all of that by yourself can be so hard to do. So I think that's where there's not a simple answer to say, oh, we'll do it this way. It's to really say, make sure this conversation is happening within a much broader conversation in your marriage about health, about recovery, about rebuilding trust, about how do we value one another? Because if it's happening within that greater conversation, then I think there can be success. But sometimes we just. We can put all the focus on, are we or aren't we having sex and when will it come back and when will you trust me enough. And when it kind of gets that spotlight on it, we're just. We're manipulating the conversation into something it's not meant to answer. And we need to kind of step back, say, well, let's just focus on trust as a whole. Let's. Let's work on how do we rebuild communication as a couple. And then I think our sexual intimacy becomes the overflow or the outcome of health in other places in our relationship.

I think what comes to mind for me is trusting the process. Like, if I'm an athlete and I, you know, tear my acl, there's like, things are going to be taken away from me where I'm not able to function like I used to. I'm not able to play. I'm not able to do this or that. And if I want to get back to playing, I need to trust the process, that I need to not be out on the field and not be running and give time for that healing. Similar to recovery, there's a lot of woundedness on either side. We got to go in and do the work of recovery to heal what needs to be healed. And remember that the hope is, is that once we've gone through that healing process and we're at a better place, the sex will be better than it was before. It will be better because you guys have not only your own healing, but your relationship has changed because of that healing. And so I think that you have to trust the process, and that's really difficult. But the words of Robert Vandermeer keep going through my head like, you won't die without sex. And so the idea that, yes, this is something that's important for your relationship, but there are seasons or series of your relationship where you need to pull back from this area in order to grow as a couple. And again, it's with the intent that it is going to be better later once the healing has taken place. And so that's a really hard answer to swallow. But at the same time, is the health of your marriage more important than the frequency of sex right now? And I think that the answer usually is going to be, yes, I want a better marriage than I want to have sex right now. So keeping that in mind. Okay, so this is a question, and I wrote this question because I want to know. This is literally for me, so please don't screw it up and please solve my problem. How do we. Maybe we are starting to have these conversations in our marriage where we're talking about sexual, but how it's kind of a two Parter, how do we improve or continue to improve these conversations? And also, how do we know we've improved in the area of talking about sex with our spouse?

Well, how would you answer that?

This is not my time. This is your time. We're literally platforming you as sexperts, if you will. So please, please, Jen.

Okay, what was the question again?

How do you continue to improve communication about sex in your marriage?

You know, this is. This is. Of all weeks, this is the most vulnerable week, because this has actually been a very difficult subject for Dan and I this week. And I don't think that it is. I don't think it's coincidence because we don't usually have difficulties in this area except for this week. So that. Actually, that question is difficult to answer because I feel like we're in the midst of it, and that's why we had come up with those three things that we're sharing this week. So how do we know? I already know. I already know that. That sex after this episode is going to be better than it was last week.

But because we're glad we could help.

You out, please go home first, though.

Just.

But no, in all seriousness, because. Because we're talking about it. I can already feel the. The. The emotional climb. Almost a climax. Oh, my gosh.

But.

But there is.

There's a connection that's happening.

And let's be honest, there's a reason why they say makeup sex is so good, right? Why is that? Because. Because we have now taken down. We have now put aside what's been in the way emotionally, and we've opened up the emotional connection. And now. And that's. I don't know that I'm really answering your question, but I think what I'm trying to say is that I can already feel the shift because of the emotional connection that's taking place. So that's one way that I know that we are moving toward health is, first of all, we're not avoiding. We're talking about it. And once you talk about the hard thing and things clear out of the way, you can literally feel the shift. So that's the beginning of my answer.

Pure Desire podcast. Improving people's sex lives in 2020.

Right?

Yeah, for sure. And I think what. I mean, if we want to get better at something, just like anything, we have to continue to do it, right? And it's pretty evident this week that we had not been doing. We hadn't been cultivating an emotional connection.

So we thought we had.

We thought we had. But it turns out we really hadn't. Yeah.

And.

And so just talking about too much Tiger King.

You've been watching that binge.

Watched it one day.

That's another episode.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.

That's something. Yeah.

But anyway, so we. We really hadn't grown in that area or hadn't continued to grow that area. So a real shortcoming. And so just keep doing it. And again, I think the other part is, when you get into this conversation, we can tend to stick to things that are safe. We can stick to the subjects or the topics that we think will cause the least amount of discomfort for us or our partner. Feeling the need or being able to risk and even preface it saying this feels vulnerable to say, but. And then follow it up, because that's where the real intimacy comes from.

Well, I think in some ways, you guys are answering the question without realizing you are. Because what comes to mind for me is in marriage, just accepting that we go through. Through seasons, there's weeks where it's just not working out. We're not connecting well, we're not communicating well. Our sex life is non existent. And I think there was a temptation for me, especially earlier in marriage, to kind of panic about that, like, oh, my gosh, something's wrong, and we got to fix it right now. And maybe there was a belief in my mind that I just thought our sex life should always be a 9 or a 10. And the truth is, it's just not realistic. Like, we're human beings that have jobs and emotions and kids and all this kind of stuff that goes on. And. And some weeks or months, if you're in a stretch where, like, it's just not working out real well to take a deep breath and say, you know, I've committed to this person till death do us part. So we got time to work on this. Like, we're gonna figure it out. And being patient with each other, I've just found it. It comes back. You get back into a good season. And so continuing to communicate through the hard times, the good times, is so important. And one of the things that's worked for my wife and I is not just having a focused conversation about sex, because sometimes we can build on too much pressure to that or make it too big of a thing. It's just to mix it in with healthy conversation. Like if we're out on a date or somewhere where we're together as a couple, just able to talk. And I'm asking a lot of other questions, like, hey, what was good about your week? What are you really enjoying about your job? What are things I've done this week that have made you feel noticed and appreciated? What's something we could do to improve our sex life? So now it's one of other questions. It's not just this kind of narrow window of let's talk about sex. It's like, let's just talk about our relationship. And adding those in as part of how we're connecting, I think has just helped us continue to communicate and grow.

And that what you're doing, too, in that it's what's cool, is what I'm seeing is that it's not an isolated topic in your marriage. It's one of many topics that encompass your marriage. And so you're normalizing the conversation as, how are we doing in our finances? And is our house staying clean and our kids being fed is on the same level of how's our sex life?

Right.

Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. Okay, good. My question was answered. Thanks.

I think another way to kind of gauge where you are is how's the other person responding? Not just outside, but the bedroom, but in the bedroom.

Are they.

Are you giving them something to respond to, and are they receiving and responding? This is a topic of conversation that Dan and I have had that, you know, the responses back and forth really indicate whether or not we're moving forward in health in relationship to the whole subject.

Yeah. That's good.

Yeah. So this. This conversation in the marriage can be very private and personal. So as we're working on communication as a couple, is it okay to involve others in terms of how can we reach out to others for advice or input, like what's appropriate, what's not? How do we involve community in this without making it something that's inappropriate or that we shouldn't be talking about outside the marriage?

Listen to this podcast.

What kind of guidelines would you give people to work through that?

I have such an opinion on this. Well, great.

Yeah, please.

I. I feel very comfortable with my husband sharing his. Our sex life with people that I trust. So we have established people and we have agreed upon people that I feel comfortable with him discussing our sex life with. And he hasn't really shared with me yet who he trust in my realm.

No one.

That's not true. But. But what. What that does for me is it creates a place where I know he can go and process.

Yeah.

Maybe some things that he's working through with people that have. That I know have my back, people that I know have my marriage and care about my marriage and people That I feel comfortable knowing maybe some of the details that Dan is going to share with them and people that are going to speak truth and godliness to him. And there are. And there's also people that are actually off the list. I do not want you talking to so and so and so and so, just to be clear. And so we've come to an agreement as to who we feel are safe people to. To discuss this with. And that creates an element of safety for me, knowing that he has men in his life that I trust that he can talk to.

Yeah. And I think it goes. So obviously, personal dynamics is really important because Jen just said she doesn't. I don't have a list, because I don't. Here's the reason why I know my wife is not. She doesn't share things without thinking about it, without knowing who she's sharing it to. So for her, if she shares it with someone she trusts, I trust them too. So I don't feel like I need to say, keep it away from that person.

Currently, I have control issues, which is.

A whole nother episode.

We'll get to that later. But, I mean, I think that's. That's why I. You know, I.

Well, there have been people in the past that weren't safe, and I think that that's part of what we have in place to create even a safe dynamic between the two of us.

So what I'm hearing, though, then, is that it needs to be something that's decided upon by a couple. Like, even because I'm thinking of there may be people in group who feel like, oh, this is just something I can share with my group members. No problem. Not unless you've had a conversation with your spouse first. I mean, like, part of group is going to be talking through some of this stuff. But, like, I mean, I. I am on a podcast every single week, and there are, like, thousands of people that listen to it. There are things that I don't share about my sex life. For that reason, I don't know everybody like.

Right.

You know, and even the. You know, even the trusted members of your group still make sure that there's that level or that layer that you've talked to your spouse already and there is some agreement that it's okay to talk about it.

Yeah. I think in some ways, the group guidelines we have are worth noting here because we say, you know, outside of group, I can share my story, but no one else's. And I think that's kind of true with your marriage sex life, that there are Some obvious boundaries there that I shouldn't be sharing about my spouse's body, about my spouse's sexual response cycle, about my spouse's issues. Like, that's really their information, and that's not mine to share unless I've specifically had their permission to bring that up with someone. And now I might bring up questions I have about myself, about issues we're facing that are not revealing of what's going on in between us. It is. It's kind of personal and private. And so you want to keep that to a trusted network of people at most. But the other thing I would say with this, we do need to have freedom to reach out to people that if we're having a problem, because I think that can be shameful. Like, we're really struggling in our sex life and we feel like we can't talk to anyone. Well, it's not going to get better. And I hear couples, like, several years down the road that that's when they're finding that things are kind of breaking apart. And now stuff comes out and you find out that, like, for five years, sex between them has been painful, and so they're not having it. You're like, have you talked to him about this? Well, no. Talk to a doctor. Talk to a friend. Like, if it's painful, if you're not able to help your spouse climax, if there's issues with your body's not responding the way you think it should. Like, it's okay to be a human being and have problems that you go to someone with.

Sometimes you need to hear that from someone other than your spouse. Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

So go to people you trust. If it's a medical thing, go to a doctor. If it's a relational thing, go to a trusted friend that you both feel comfortable with. But do go to someone. Because I think that's where we come back to say, okay, well, I'm going to work on communicating just with my spouse about sex. But we can never talk to anybody else about our issues. And that's where I think we go to. We go to sources that, you know, maybe someone online or we read a book. And those are good to do. But I think we feel like, I can't talk to people I know about this. So then I go to this outside source, which might actually rob us of the opportunity to get godly wisdom advice from people. Like you were saying, Jen. People that care about us and really could help if we would allow them.

To think of, like, parenting. Like, you have conversations with other parents in the same Season that are your friends about parenting so that you won't suck as a parent. Like, that's why I go to my friends. I'm like, Like, I'll admit this is what I'm struggling with as a dad. How do I do a better job? And again, to your point of normalizing the conversation to sex, being a part of, like, the number of topics that you know revolve around in our marriage, I think that it should be the same type of thing in this area. And understanding, too. This is something that. That I'm. I'm just feel like I'm getting now is that when you're able to have conversations with people and invite them in, in that sense, what that does is that actually opens the door for them to later communicate as well that there's this. Because this is not something that I see practiced in my community of believers. Like, this is not something where I know about what's going on in the sexual relationships of my friends. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But again, it's not a topic that is normally discussed amongst husbands or wives. And so maybe we can change the culture a little bit there.

Like it.

You look like you have something to add to that.

Nope.

Okay.

Truth be told, I was trying to think of my greeting for this episode because we haven't recorded it yet.

Okay, so having healthy communication in marriage is essential. We all know that. And it's also really important around the topic of sex. So we pray that our conversation today, and I know that the vulnerability you guys have shared is going to help facilitate open, honest, and effective communication between really any listener and their spouse, any relationship that they're in. And so just understand that communication about your sexual relationship is essential. Howie's. You guys are awesome. We love having you. Thanks.

Thanks.

I shouldn't have been having this conversation because if halt is the the definition of when you shouldn't, I have been hungry for hours.

Well, whether you're hungry or wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. You haven't subscribed to the podcast. Do it. If you're already subscribed, please write a review. It helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.