167 - Creating Safe Spaces w/ Keith Jenkins

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 167 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Hey, just want to give a shout out today to our producer, Justin Watson.

Hey, hey, hey.

I was thinking about this. Like, he's been joining us for almost a year.

Over a year now.

Over a year. And we never hardly even mention the guy, let alone give him a shout out. So he's doing a lot of hard work behind the scenes. People know the podcast as Trevor and Nick, but I just, I thought he should get the intro today.

Yeah, let's just have him say something.

Justin Watson.

I have no idea what to do with my hands. Okay, that's great. What a great segue into today's episode. So, yes, we do want to give lots of credit for just to Justin. He does a lot for us and produces the show very, very well. Okay, so we. I just feel like we're on this string of really good episodes. I don't know that as opposed to like, I guess, but I just suddenly.

A little concern.

I feel like we've had some outside guests that have come in that have just been really, really powerful conversations and today is another really powerful one. Couple quick things, a few things. Subscribe to the podcast. If you're not do it. You can find us on all the major platforms and give us a review. It help find the podcast and it means a lot to us. Also, you can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi if you like to consume video content. Some of the episodes and clips are up. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Lastly, real quick, we are super excited. It is out. It is in the world. Our Sexual Integrity 101 video course is here.

Yeah, we are very excited. We just, we know how challenging this area can be. I mean, very often people find Pure Desire because they're in crisis. And then they say, why didn't I know these things about the brain and patterns of behavior and how trauma and wounds from my past connect to it. There's just all these things that Pure Desire has taught for several decades now, and we would all benefit from learning and being more educated in this area. So that was our goal with the Sexual Integrity one on one video course, was to put this into something that was easy for anyone to watch and digest and increase their understanding of all the things that happen in the area of our sexual brokenness. So whether you're the one struggling, a family member, or just a concerned, you know, citizen, it's like, I want to help in this area. We think the video course can really move you down the road to helping others or helping in your own life find freedom and really restoration.

Yeah. So this course is for anybody who struggles with unwanted sexual behavior, has betrayal trauma. For parents, pastors, leaders, volunteers, anybody and everybody, this course is for you to better understand sexual integrity. Go grab Digital access or DVDs now@puredesire.org 101 okay, so we say this a little bit in the intro, but Keith Jenkins, who's a pastor in our area, is someone who's spoken at some of our events before, has some history with pure desire, and is just a solid dude, just an incredible man that we value and treasure his perspective. And we've been trying to get him on the podcast for a long time. And as a black man, as a pastor and a leader in our area, we just wanted to sit down and talk to him about what does it look like to create a safe place in the communities that we're in.

Yeah, and I know for some listeners they may feel like, well, this went into racism or politics. We, we touched on a lot of topics in this podcast. But what I really hope listeners key on is just the value behind seeing the commonality in all people, understanding how we tackle these really difficult topics. Because I think the truth that people are in right now is it doesn't really matter what the topic is, whether it's racism or politics or masks or virus issues. Just like we're all in the middle of some kind of hard, challenging conversations with people we disagree with and, and we're asking the question, like, how do we work through this? Do we only hang around with people that agree with everything we believe, which that group will get smaller and smaller when you keep bringing up new topics. It's like, oh, they don't agree with me. And they, you know, pretty soon it's me, Myself and I are the only ones I can agree with. And so I just think there's so much value in what Keith had to share from his perspective of helping all of us understand how do we be Christ centered, loving people and then how does that touch on being a safe place when it comes to issues like sexual brokenness? So it's, it's really a unique episode, but I believe every listener has some things that they're going to gain out of today.

And he is an engaging speaker and he's got great stuff. So you're going to enjoy this one. Absolutely. Enjoy the episode. Keith Jenkins, we've been trying to get you on the podcast. I don't know if you know this or not, but we've been trying to get you on the podcast for a while.

I know, I know, I know.

So we're super glad that you're here. Thanks for being here, man.

Oh, it's a privilege too. Sorry it took so long. I am not that big time. It is a factor of the season that we've lived in.

Yes. So everyone knows Keith has not been big dogging us. He has just been busy because you are a pastor and man, you are busy for sure, especially in this time. But Keith, you've been a friend of pure desire and Dr. Ted for a while now, and some of our listeners may not know who you are about you and your connection to Pure Desire. So can you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and then how you connected with Ted and Pure Desire?

Yeah, I think Ted was always on my radar just from the work with Pure Desire, but probably acutely got close in relationship through Jason when he was installed is when I really got introduced to East Hill and had real good proximity with Ted and Diane in the ministry. But I think also I'm an end user of the product. And so I had my own journey of brokenness in my life and needed what Pure Desire provided. And so the restorative nature of the ministry, the healing nature of it has enhanced my own life personally. And so through Ted's testimony and military ethos, it may not work for everybody, but it works for me because I was a Marine as well. So he just kind of speaks my language that way. So it was super accessible and helpful in my journey. So that's sort of the nature of it.

And so what do you do now? Fill people in. What's your role? What's your ministry look like now?

I'm the lead pastor at East Hill, which carries the distinction of having three successive pastors be US Marines, which I'm not sure is a good thing. We're hoping it's a good thing. So, yeah, Coco and I were appointed as the lead pastors here in October of last year. And so we were enjoying a ministry honeymoon with our new family and got interrupted by global pandemic. So go figure. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and that's a part of the reason we wanted to have you on today, Keith, is just the way that your life intersects with so many significant issues taking place right now in our world, and in particular, the issues that are really, you know, front and center right now with racism. And one of the things we want to get to is by the end of this podcast, the similarities of how within the church, it's just hard for us to talk about certain things or to be a safe place, whether it's racism or sexual stuff or they're just taboo topics in the church. And so we felt like if we could have you on, not only to speak to just racism in the church and what can we do to not just have that be something out there, but, you know, face it in our own lives and then to look by the end at how does that also connect to the kind of challenges people face with their sexuality and pornography. And so maybe just to start there, you know, we'd like to hear from you as a black man, as a pastor, in today's climate, with the pandemic and all the racial issues and tensions, what has it been like for you to lead and shepherd a church in this season?

Yeah, in a word, exhausting. It's just, you know, because I think what I would. The way I would characterize it is this way, there's an ideal that I think the gospel presents for us as the new humanity and what it would mean to live in the kingdom of God and all of his fullness. Right. And then there's the reality that we don't. We're all progressing and trying to grow into that. And it's been, in a word, hard, difficult, because like I just said, part of. Part of what I've got to do is lead and gain the trust, quite frankly, of a new family, a new congregation, a new community of faith who don't know me, know me in general. But now I'm their pastor. So you would know that I've been coming to the church off and on for the last decade or so, but now to press into the conversation which is America's original sin and so difficult for people to engage. Now I'm forced to try to figure out in real time, while they're trying to get to know me, we're forced with having a conversation that obviously no one in America really wants to have because it's so difficult to have and we're so ill equipped. And the church ought to be a safe place to have these kind of conversations, whether it relates to brokenness and addictions or racism, whatever. But unfortunately, the church has become, as it relates to racism, complicit historically. And so that's hard to swallow, and as it relates to hard Topics we just aren't equipped. We're used to performing Christianity, not really living it the way it ought to be lived, in community together. So we're not equipped to have real, in depth, meaningful, vulnerable and placing ourselves in vulnerable positions to have those kind of conversations. So it's been tough. And then as a black man, separate from roles, having, you know, black children, black daughters, black son, and having to navigate, you know, for me this became really, for whatever reason, I was sort of late as a black man coming to the party, but when Michael Brown was killed. Michael Brown is a big African American kid that looks a lot like my son, Keith Jr. Really big. My son is. He's got all of the genes that I wish I had. He's sick, he's three. He's like almost 300 some pounds. Big old dude, looks good. And he looked like Michael Brown. And it stopped me in my tracks and made me realize back then that this could be my son. And I was forced to have another conversation with him, which I have had repeatedly since he started driving. How to engage traffic stops and deal with law enforcement. So separate from my role, I have an emotional journey that I have to deal with. And there's anger and frustration that there still is inequality and we still have to wrestle with these things. But then inside my role as a pastor, I'm trying to figure out. I have really strong feelings about these things, but I'm not sure that I have the trust and the equity, relational equity, to engage these conversations. And yet we have to talk about it. And so I've been trying to do that very thoughtfully and incrementally as our church is ready to sort of engage. But again, the whole world is now thrust in having this conversation with Black Lives Matter becoming a global movement, even outside the organization itself, it's just become this mantra globally.

So, yeah, yeah, well, and what I hear and what you're saying, that so much of what's happening right now with pandemic issues, racism, politics, I mean, you name it, is. It's really kind of bringing to the surface what do we really believe about the gospel and what do we really believe about ourselves? And when things are relatively calm and smooth and it's just life as usual, it's easy to live in that kind of performance Christianity. But when we're going through the kind of stuff we are now that it just doesn't work and we find out really what's going on inside of us. And I know for me, that's been maybe the challenging part of this is to as that stuff surfaces, be like, oh, this is actually a way that God can disciple me, that he can help me see. Where am I not really surrendered to the gospel? Where am I still just stuck in my own views and ideas? And where do those need to be brought to Christ? And so there's opportunities like that in the midst of all this.

I 100% agree. And as it relates to the race conversation, like, we're all confronted, and I would agree with what I've heard repeated nationally. And it's a sin. It's an original sin in our country, but it's a sin that lies within each one of us. If we're just really honest. There's bias in each one of us. If you guys were walking down the street in Gresham, maybe not. Maybe not on Main street, but someplace else, and you seen five black guys on one side of the street and you had your wife and your children with you, what's the first thing you would think at night? It's like, we probably ought to cross the other side of the street. Or they might be something you wouldn't think. We're just totally safe. We're just totally fine. There's stereotypes that have played into these mentalities and these biases that we have. We learned them in our families. We watch Grandma and grandpa. There's all of this stuff, and we can't even get to the place of dealing with. For me, we can't deal with the nation's problems until we deal with the individual heart issues. And we actually, as brothers, can say, yeah, man, I have some biases. And, you know, I was brought up, you know, being told, you gotta watch white people, you gotta watch them. And I'm like, oh. So then I grew up not having any experience with any, by the way, because I grew up in East Baltimore for the most part. Wasn't very many there in the community. But I was taught. Now hear what I just said. I was taught to have a distrust of people who didn't look like me and didn't come from where I come from. And I wonder how much of that is going on underneath the surface now. Compound that with the fact that the church is ill equipped to lead people in crucial conversations.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It ain't wonder we're not part of the solution the way we could be. I'm hopeful that we can be.

Yeah.

But we have been up to this point at the level that we need to be.

I. And this is on our list of questions. I've just been thinking about this a lot with your experience in the military too, there's. That's like another layer, it feels like, of your emotional experience, this huge part of your life, this huge part of your story that also seems to clash with some of the things that are going on on either side. What has that been like for you to deal with? Just emotionally knowing that there's. Because here's where I'm coming from. Where I'm coming from is you look at stuff like Kaepernick in the NFL and now in the NBA, and you have so many people who are, well, if you're not gonna stand for the national anthem, then I'm not gonna watch right. When they're peacefully protesting. And, you know, a lot of the players have said, I'm not doing this against the military, I'm doing this against the original sin of our country. If you will help me process that a little bit from your perspective, man.

That, you know, you didn't put that on your list of questions, but I appreciate it. You know, first of all, the Marine Corps took me from East Baltimore to Parris Island, South Carolina, to California to Guam before I was even 18 years old. Yeah. So it gave me this cultural experience. Now with that being said, so I have all of these different people now navigating in my orbit relationally. We're working together. I'm putting my life in other people's hands who don't look like me. So that, that teaches you some things. But as it relates to Cap, because that's been a lightning rod sort of issue, I've said this every chance I can get. I legitimately do not like the national anthem protest. And for the reason that you mentioned, I'm a military guy. My dad is a two tour Vietnam veteran. My brother is a two tour Desert War, Desert Storm veteran, Afghanistan and Iraq. And so we've, and I've got 10 years in the Marine Corps. So we've all had our fallen comrades come home with their coffins draped with that flag. So it really, I mean, you can ask my children if the national anthem plays. They're standing up. Hand on heart, we're. That we're patriotic in that way. And yet, and yet all of us as soldiers fought for the freedoms that those men are exhibiting, which is peaceful protests. Now, I say it this way, I don't like the form of that protest. I don't like it. I don't enjoy it and I don't like it. However, I am in 100% solidarity with the substance of it and what he communicated out of his own Mouth before the narrative got hijacked is police brutality and systemic racism. Those things were repeated over and over and particularly by Cap. Police brutality, which is a problem in our country for a lot of different reasons, that black males in particular, tend to be put in mortal jeopardy as they have engagements with law enforcement, where it seems like those engagements get de. Escalated in other communities, and they begin to get escalated and resulting in the fatality of black males at a disproportionate rate. So don't like the form of the protest. As a military guy, definitely understand and support and in solidarity with the substance of it, which I think people talk too much about the form of it.

Yes.

And the substance of the protest.

Yeah, it's a good way to put it. All right, so back to the scheduled questions for you. Okay, So, I mean, we've already touched on this a little bit, but I think there is this Persona, if you will, of the church that it's not a safe place. I think I've experienced, as a millennial, I've experienced that from people both inside the church and outside the church that the church is not a safe place. Especially talk about topics like addiction, politics, social justice, the things that are really tough to talk about. Why do you think that assumption is there for so many people today about the church?

You know, if you start with the leadership, it would explain, like, a lot of things happen in my house. My kids caught them from watching us. They watched how we grew in the house. And so I think a lot of times what we see resulting in the pews started in the pulpits, where we, as leaders were not vulnerable. We didn't discuss our own brokenness, our own struggles, our own traumas and clashes with the. With the Lord and our faith. I learned early on that I needed to be real because there was no other place for me to go. I didn't have a lot of training. You know, a lot of pastors were brought up in an era where they were taught not to be vulnerable and never to let anybody know they had any weaknesses, which is counter the biblical text, which is living in community, bearing one another's burdens. All of those things just sort of went out the door. So when we began to perform for the audience, I believe the audience began, they picked up on that. And because, you know, now we live in an era where we're being much more vulnerable by force at certain points. But, yeah, I think that's been a root cause, is we as leaders, didn't lead them well in that regard. And we hid from Them. We hid our brokenness, we hid our questions, we hid our failings from them. And so they learned, hey, this is not a safe place to be. Not okay. We need to put it on every week when we come and never let anybody know that we're struggling. Which, I mean, when you think about it, after a while you start running 50% divorces inside the church and outside the church. Addiction running rampant outside the church and inside the church. So we somehow lost the idea of being salt and light in that way because we didn't do what we were called to do, which is to come to one another and Jesus making us this new humanity or this new household family, where we actually could get in each other's lives, life on life, and help each other grow. And so now we're, we're tasked with, I mean, whether it be divorce, addiction, politics or racism, we just are ill equipped as a group to really help our society because we haven't done it in the house yet.

I. I've just been thinking about this quite a bit. I mean, I grew up in the church and you know, for me, having black friends who are going through this time and thinking about who I'm raising in my house with my two boys, thinking about this a lot. What was modeled, because you use that it's taught or modeled to you for me, was like a clean and crisp Christianity. Almost like you have to come out of every situation like your clothes are clean, you're looking good and presentable, when in reality, like, if you're going to talk about messy stuff, it's going to get messy. And I think that that's one of the biggest downfalls of the church in my lifetime is that we have this perception that we have to look like we got it all together. When in reality, I think that's one of the things that is least inviting when it comes to people who are broken. Like, why would I go into a place where no one's broken if I am a mess? And so I just, I like what you're saying. And Keith, I've seen this man. I watch you, I watch the sermons, I pay attention to your social media and you engage in this stuff and it's not clean. You're not always going to get everyone saying 100%, I'm with you. You're going to get a lot of pushback. And I think that we have to run the risk and we got to get our hands dirty if we're going to see stuff change, because the clean and crisp is not real. I mean, for Me, whitewashed tombs is what comes to mind. Like that imagery that Jesus gives.

You cannot. I mean, honestly, when you read the Gospels, you see Jesus moving in the direction toward messy conversations. What is he doing with that woman by the well? Why is this woman touching him? Why? I mean, all of these instances, again and again through the Gospels, we find Jesus going out of his way to have the messy conversation and to engage people where they are in their brokenness, because that is the good news of the gospel, that you can be set free, that you could, you could leave this place of poverty, of spirit and soul and life to find this new place to live in the kingdom of God. And I just, I think for me, man, also personally, I married a woman who just will not allow me to be a caricature. So there's no way that she's going to allow me to get on the stage and not live this stuff. And I've found, and it was a risk years ago, but I found through experience that people are much more engaging, much more apt to follow leaders, that they can trace the journey from brokenness or continued journey, because we're all on a healing journey. They can trace it, it encourages them, it gives them hope. That, man, I'm not as messed up. If he could do that and he's still screwed up, then maybe the Lord can use me as well along the way. And I think we've. We missed something there.

Yeah, yeah. You know, and it seems to me like one of the things that's happened in the church is we want to put everything into the categories of right and wrong, you know, good and bad. And so we, we, we stand for what's right and we're against what's wrong. And we've just kind of put that on every issue, which then makes it impossible to have conversation. People aren't invited in because we already know what's right and we're against what's wrong. And so there's, there's no dialogue. But what I think is remarkable about Jesus, in so many of those messy conversations, he starts with questions, he comes back with dialogue. He's like, what do you see as the greatest commandment? Like, I'm not just going to tell you right and wrong. Let's talk about this. And that. That moved people, I think, towards really considering their views and viewpoints. And so to that point, Keith, like, in your experience, what does it look like to start making our churches or communities a safe place to talk about difficult and challenging topics? What do we need to work on?

Yeah, I want to circle to what you said, I think is really important. I'll get, I'll get to that real quick. I think vantage point is, is, is super important because you said people say what's right and what's wrong and the simple truth of the matter is depending on your vantage point. Like people say police are great. Yeah. Vantage point depend on what community you live in and the experiences you had. You could be 100% right.

Yeah. Or what instances you're looking at to make that decision.

Correct. And so I think if we're going to have a safe place, if we're going to really going to create communities of faith that are safe for broken people and our society is producing more and more and I'm sure your ministry can attest to it. Brokenness. And so if that's going to happen, then you know what I, you know what it is. Leaders have to go first. We've got to develop cultures within our church that are healing cultures that are grace filled, truth telling cultures where we engage in the critical conversations and we address the issues where people live. I think for a long time we've been answering questions in pulpits that nobody was asking. We got a lot of Greek, a lot of Hebrew, a lot of theology. So good, great. I don't understand what you said, but I'm going home to pornography. I'm going home to emotional abuse. I'm going home to rejection and abandonment. And with no answer, we just did two hours in church and I have no more clue how to live for Christ in the midst of this brokenness than I had when I came. But our pastor is really smart. So I just think we've really got to apply the gospel to ourselves first and foremost. Because whether I like it or not, God called me a sheep first. And I'm not a shepherd first. I'm a sheep in need of a shepherd to lead me to still waters, to restore my soul, to lead me through the darkest valleys. I'm going to go in and through some darkness in this world. And I need a church, a community of faith, people in that community that recognize it as not abnormal, a part of the human experience that Jesus invades and comes and brings light and love in, in the midst of.

Yeah, I, I read a book a couple, I think it was a year or two ago, how to Lead when youn're Not In Charge by a guy named Clay Scroggins. And one of the things I really took away from that is because I think there'll be some people who listen to this episode and say, okay, Keith, I get you, but I'm not a pastor, I'm not a leader in the church. And I think that what we all need to do is look at the leadership or the better word. I think, in my opinion, is influence. Where do we have influence in our life? And then using that influence to create a safe place to welcome vulnerability and brokenness, to facilitate conversations that are uncomfortable. I think that that is what all of us can do. And I think that that goes from top leader in a church to someone who goes maybe once a year, like whatever your level of involvement is with Jesus in the church, I think that you have a sphere of influence and you can use that for others benefit or not. And I think that one of the ways is to try to become a safe person.

I think you're right. And I think we've limited influence to only be people that stand on stages. Unfortunately, when we do that, we miss so many opportunities, whether it be the families that your kids play soccer with. And having a conversation is like, hey, what do you guys think about racism and the protests that's going on in Portland? Or hey, how are you guys doing in your relationship? You start developing these relationships where you can actually have some real conversations. Maybe it's not a platform out there in the world. Maybe it's just as simple as you influencing your children and making sure that they don't have just the statement, I'm not a racist, but they actually become anti racist. They actually take steps, actions, to identify behaviors, attitudes, mentalities. So you're influencing the world through influencing them in the world that they will inhabit. And so I just think that we, unfortunately in the church, we've made people think we use the L word, the leader word, without saying, hey, by the way, whether you're a single mom, a grandma, grandpa, whether you got a Bible degree or not, you are influenced. There are people in your life, whether it be one, depending on how you're graced, or a thousand, you can have influenced a significant impact in the world. And to speak to these things. Yeah.

So let's say our church maybe is a safe place. It is a place where we can have conversations and broken people can walk in. We think of what our friend James Reeves in Texas, they talk about their church being a hospital church. Right, that idea. Let's say we have a church like that, but we still have people in our church who wake up and they're like, yeah, I'm not going to be vulnerable today. That's too risky. How do we encourage vulnerability? How do we draw that out from our people.

Yeah. I think that it's like anything else. Right. It just becomes part of the norm once. First of all, let's just be honest. Vulnerability is tricky. It is not easy and there are some pitfalls and there are are some failed attempts in relationships. You were vulnerable with somebody and they took that and used it against you, which teaches you maybe not to be vulnerable. So we've all had some failed attempts and that type of thing. I think over time. This is just my own hypothesis. I think over time with a really grace filled, truth telling culture and environment that allows for broken people to admit that they're broken and a leadership group, everyone. Right. That I think every human being wants to be seen and known for who they really are. And they long for that. Right. And so I think over time we can win that war by just being consistently available and letting people know it's okay to not be okay. By the way, I'm not as well. Yeah, I'm working on it. Jesus is working on all of us. If we can create that kind of space for people to unpack over time. Because you know they're going to come in locked up.

Totally.

And over time it gives them the ability. Because I can remember coming to church, seeing happy people. And I understand it. People were smiling and singing and shouting and clapping and I'm like, is this for real? Oh. And then all of a sudden they do that, you know, the forced fellowship moment where you turn and hug your neighbor. Like, I looked at the guy that was going to hug me, I was like, don't you even think there are so.

There are so many people who are thanking the Lord for the pandemic and now the fact they don't have to turn and shake hands or hug. Somebody got rid of that awkward moment.

Here's the truth about that. That moment was awkward and I didn't want to engage in it and I didn't want to allow my guard to be down. And yet after a few weeks, I was shaking hands. Before long, well, I was smiling first, shaking hands. And then I started looking for people after a while to hug because it just became the norm. I knew that it was safe to love and to be loved. And that was different for me. And I think people don't know experience. Trevor has taught them to be vulnerable is to be taken advantage of, to be abused. And so I think there's a lot of trauma in people's lives that we have to work through and give them time to work through it with us.

Well, and I think what you're describing is that vulnerability will always take courage because of the negative examples or stories where it was used against us. And so I think a real key in our communities becomes how do we react to someone else's vulnerability? So we maybe heard what Keith just said. Oh, well, I would never take someone's vulnerability and use it against them. Well, that's great. But did you just sit in silence and listen to it and not respond? I mean, when someone takes that courageous risk to be vulnerable, I think the way we react even in the moment is so crucial to be celebrating that. Like man, we so appreciative of your honesty. And man, thank you for being real about that. And that helps me be real. Just that we affirm that in the moment because there's the old saying that rewarded behavior gets repeated. And so if I'm vulnerable and everyone in the room just kind of looks at me and moves on, they might think, well we didn't shame them. But it's like, well, you kind of did because no one responded to it. And that behavior then was not rewarded. And so it won't be repeated. But if I open up and I'm vulnerable in a whole room or small group of people's like, wow, that, thank you for sharing that. Like that actually on a very basic human level, feels good and it'll give me more courage to do it again next time.

So for us, I mean, so that means that when we start telling story in church and telling people stories and that type of thing, that we, that we point to those kind of stories and says, this is who we are, this is who we want to be. Yay. Isn't that courageous? We actually celebrate it, whether it's in a small group, whether it's at a coffee shop, or whether it's on the main stage on a Sunday morning, it just becomes a part of who we are. And I do think it is something ingrained in us as human beings that we just long to not want to wear the mask anymore, but we just can't find enough safe people and safe spaces to do it in. And so I just love this journey that we're on as well as people and as the church to get there.

Yeah, I, as you were saying that, Nick, because that's exactly what I wrote down too. Is that idea of our reaction or really our response to vulnerability. But I think it's important too to remember that that's like a sustained response to vulnerability. It's not a one time thing with that one best friend who shared Something dark and, you know, and crazy. Maybe you heard a piece of their story. You're just like, wow, man. Thanks for sharing that. Really appreciate that. It's actually our response to all people when it comes to all. All things. Like, yeah, it. That's how we perpetuate that culture. That's how we continue to create it. And I just. That's really hard because that takes you being present and locked in and intentional all the time. Like you can't go into a conversation and just breeze through it because you might have missed something. And then they're gonna think, well, I was vulnerable with Trevor, but he didn't say anything, so. Well, not gonna do that again.

Well, it. It just helps when you have people in your community because we need each other. Iron sharpens iron. Because the moment that I'm tending to shrink back from this, you got people in my audience, like Harry Flanagan, that may send me a voicemail or message after church and say, call me out a little bit and say, hey, that wasn't as vulnerable as I know you can be, or that type of thing. Good natured. I think we need one another in that way to keep pulling each other out because the safe place, you know, is to run back and hide and be in isolation. We know what that does. The limbic system is going to push us into those spaces again and again, but we've got to sort of allow others. And I think. I love what you just said. I wrote it down. Sustained vulnerability is different than momentary. That's so good.

Yeah. So for everyone listening, Keith, they're a part of maybe a church or a community or Pure Desire group where sooner or later someone's kind of walking into that experience fresh and they want to be a safe group or a safe person. And so could you just describe for us a little bit what does it look like or what kind of person makes you feel safe? Where do you feel like you can relax and let your guard down? What does it take to be that kind of a person?

The people that I feel the safest around are in touch with their frailty and are not ashamed of it for whatever reason. However they've gotten done the work that they needed to go, they're completely at peace with those areas of their life and recognize that that's not all that they are and that they are not synonymous with their struggles. And those people tend to be open, inviting, vulnerable, and they give you the opportunity. Being around them allows you to unpack a little bit at a time. You may not unpack at all, but it allows you to unpack a little bit over time. And so, for me, those people have been very instructive to watch as models of. Because how can you disciple somebody without being vulnerable? That life on life. And so being that close in proximity and hearing people articulate how the grace of God is being applied in their lives not 10 years ago, but 10 minutes ago in the real now. Not stories about what used to happen, but, like, in the present, how God is wrestling with them and Holy Spirit is empowering them to deal with their brokenness and to hear it without shame, guilt, and condemnation has been so freeing for me to be able to say, okay, let me unpack mine, too. And what it's done, Trev. What it's done, brothers, is it's helped me to understand the Lord and to be real before him. Because I didn't realize that as I was faking it with people, I was also faking and mailing it in with the Lord as well. So to be around real, genuine, authentic people that are experiencing the grace of God and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit actually taught me what real Christianity was supposed to be.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah. One of the things that I just feel like is coming to mind is that there are certain types of people that do allow me to be vulnerable, but it's almost like this circle of vulnerability where I'm just. I'm not moving. I'm moving, but I'm not actually changing. I'm just going and going. They're just listening and receiving and listening and receiving. But the people that I feel safest with are the people who. And this sounds a little cliche, but they love me enough to call me on it and then show me what it looks like to move forward. Like, I went to a friend's house last week, had some hard conversations with some friends, and I went to him and just, like, dumped. This is how I feel. I feel like crap. This is where I'm at, blah, blah, blah. And he listened and took it in, but then also was like, okay, bro, but here's what you got to do next. Like, here's where I see you're actually thinking faulty here, and you're actually blaming someone there. And you're actually judging at this point. And for me, that's a safe person because you love me and you're loving me into more of who God creates, created me to be. And so I love. I love that. Vulnerability is something that we're pushing toward, but vulnerability for just, like, being aware and being vulnerable means nothing unless we're moving toward change. And so I think that that's something. As we are trying to be those people, we also have to understand there is that balance of, yes, I'm listening and accepting what this person is saying and thanking them, but also helping them through conversation and relationship forward in their sanctification.

You guys will remember this, in the Midwest, they have the. I call them lightning rod peoples, by the way. They have these buildings in the north, in the Midwest that have lightning rods on the top of them that allow for lightning to strike, hit that bowl, be grounded, and not fry the building out. And so for me, Nick and Drev, when those relationships for me are what you're describing, when I come in, I just let it all hang out. I just let it all fall on their ears without frying my kids out, without frying my marriage out, without frying the church out. You know what I mean? And they allow it to be grounded. It doesn't go anywhere. It's just in that moment. And then once it's out, then it's like, okay, Nick, so now what are we going to do about that, Keith? So, so now what does the word say? They bring me right back to the word.

Yeah.

And I already know, but I just need the moment to get it grounded, get it out. And having those really good provoking conversations. That godly provocation that comes from brothers living in community is essential to our transformation. In fact, you can't be transformed without of it. Without it, in my opinion.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that illustration. And I think to be a lightning rod kind of person, it has to be like you were saying earlier, someone that is in touch with their own stuff, that knows they've got issues and they're working on their own issues. And because they're in touch with theirs and working on it, they're so much more safe to bring ours to. Because we're like, we know we're not coming to that plastic fantastic person who's just going to give us, you know, platitudes and verses to quote, like, no, they're dealing with their stuff too. And so they become that safe sounding board. And so I think my encouragement for listeners is just the more you're working on and aware of your own stuff, you become that safe person because you just have this growing awareness of, like, nobody's perfect. We've all got issues. I'm working on mine. And if I can help you process yours, then, boy, if God can use me that way, that's great. Yeah.

You are never more right. I mean, never More positioned. You're so right. You're never more positioned to dispense grace as you are when you're receiving it on a regular basis. Right?

For sure, yes.

Okay, so we talked a little bit, Keith, about your background, your experience. Black man, pastor growing up in Baltimore, also having brokenness of your own military, there's just a lot. Right. So we know that our experience, we know that our backgrounds, they shape who we are. And I think at times it's hard to connect. Maybe we haven't had that shared experience. Like I'm not a military guy. And so for me, when Ted, you know, you talked about it, Ted hits you because he's a military guy. The military stuff from Ted doesn't hit me the same way. So how do we, how do we start to see people through their story and through their experience in that like non judgmental, accepting way?

Yeah, I mean, like you said, I mean, there's not a lot of similarities between you and I. You didn't grow up in East Baltimore, latchkey kid, you know, that whole thing. And yet there is this common, I call it the great equalizer. Pain is a great equalizer. I don't care if you black, rich, poor, wherever you come from, pain and the coping mechanisms that go with that. I mean, you guys do this work all day, every day. You see people on the higher echelons of society and the lower end pain coping, they go together. And so it doesn't matter how much money you have, it just means you can afford to get things that are more expensive to help you cope. That's all. And so I just think that that has become the common ground for us in the communities of faith we tried to build, is that we recognize that brokenness, pain, devastation is common to the human experience. And so however you have experienced it, it is the common ground that we all can come to. We may come about it, come at it from different places, but the gospel sort of levels the playing field for all of us. We are in desperate need of a savior. We're irreparably broken. And so that becomes sort of the seedbed for me for relationship with all kinds of people. And I've been, you know, I've been fortunate. God has taken me to a lot of different places. People with millions of dollars, people with no dollars, all over the world. And one of the things that you begin to notice is, wow, we are more like than the enemy would have us believe. We suffer the same things, whether in mansions or trailer parks, we suffer the same sort of life experiences together. Now, how we go about sort of moving through life from that point is different, obviously, but the remedy, the identification and the remedies are still the same. They're common to us all.

Yeah. I think it's just so crucial that we recognize the places that we've got those things in common, that we can build on common ground rather than getting focused on the differences. And I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier in the podcast, because you said how important our vantage point is or the perspective from which we view a topic. And just as an illustration of that, several months ago, with all the Black Lives Matter stuff happening, we chose as an organization to send out a letter just from me to try to say to our peers, our audience, like, hey, if you're a person of color, a minority, if you're a black person, we're with you. We stand with you. We recognize you're going through hard stuff, and we just want you to know we want to be a safe place, and we're here for you. And. And it was not meant to make any kind of political statement or anything divisive, but I found it fascinating. I probably heard from a handful of people on both sides, handful of people that appreciated the letter, and then a handful of people that had issues with it. And without exception, the handful of people that appreciated it were all people of color, and the handful of people that had an issue with it were all white men. And I'm not in any way trying to make that a divisive thing or, you know, turn it into racist, but what occurred to me was how they both read the letter differently. The same exact words went to both groups, and what they picked up on was like, oh, thank you. And the other group, like, hey, wait a minute, you missed something. And I even appreciated the comments that the white men had to share with me of what they thought I missed. They made some good points, but I still just. It occurred to me, like, they're actually reading the letter from a different perspective. And so I tell that story to ask you this question, like, if that's where we're at, like someone's perspective or vantage point is totally different than ours, how do we learn to see it from their vantage point? How do we learn to empathize with where they're at and that we might be seeing the same situation from a totally different lens, how do we enter into that kind of a perspective?

Guys, this, in my opinion, is not as convoluted, as complicated as we make it out to be. Here's why I can Totally disagree with everything coming out of your mouth about a given topic and yet ascribe honor, value, empathy and compassion to you. If you express to me as a. If I, as a black man, express to you my journey, my pain, and you make it about politics, you take my pain and make it about politics or platforms or platitudes, you have missed my humanity. You will not engage. I can't engage with you at that point. And now I'm left only with anger, rioting, protests, these type of things. Let's go back to what you said. The vast majority of people globally have never gone onto the Black Lives Matter website and read their mission statement or ideology. They just haven't. They don't know that they ascribe to Marxist ideology. They don't know they don't have anything to do with the LBT LGBTQ community. They're not trying to do any of that. They're just saying to our black brothers and sisters, your lives matter. Not making an affirmation of an organization at all.

Yes.

Just saying to black people, we see you, we see your lament, we see your pain, and we're entering in there, and unfortunately, another group of people hear Black Lives Matter and immediately lock away empathy. Stop listening. No compassion, no love, nothing. Just completely lock it away. Because for them, it becomes about this organization. It becomes about politics and, you know, the liberal agenda. And me as a black man, I'm saying, no, no, no. Just see me. See. See my lament. See my hurt. You may not agree with anything I say, but I hurt. Can you enter that space of lament with me? And it doesn't bother me as much when it's outside the church, people that are outside our faith. What really bothers me is people that say they love Jesus and then not engage and bear one another's burdens and say, okay, if my brother hurts, I may not understand all of the reasons. We may not even agree, but let me at least come alongside of him or her and express solidarity and just say, I love you. I care about you. I don't know what all these big solutions are. They're so big. I grew up in Gresham, Oregon, or Sandy, Oregon, Damascus or whatever. I don't even know about all this stuff, but I know you.

Yeah.

And it hurts me that you hurt. I think that's. That's ultimately what hurts our community, African American community, from the white community, is this sense of, we're mourning, Are we lying? Are we not telling you the truth? Or if you don't even agree with Our perception, the tears are real, the pain is real. And so can you at least sit with us in the pain and maybe we could come up with some solutions together that would be sort of agreed upon by differing. We definitely aren't going to get there by not coming to the table and not expressing love and empathy. We're not getting there. We're being more and more polarized. And I just think that that becomes a very deep wound for somebody that looks like me to say that your pain is not valid because of this organization or the moniker that it's under or Colin Kaepernick protesting. And nobody, everybody completely missed it and just said he's disrespecting the military, when in fact he actually went to military service members to get some advice on how to protest, which somehow got lost in translation.

Yeah, Keith, man, I, like, I'm regretting we don't have, like, hours with you to talk about this stuff. Just personally, I mean, I feel like we're touching on so many things just that I think about on a daily basis from my vantage point, for sure. But, man, just as we're talking about this, I just. I struggle with one of the things I've recently been studying. I've been studying through Luke. And in Luke 11, Jesus casts out a demon. And then the people say to him that he's casting out a demon by the power of the prince of demons. And he talks about a divided kingdom and how a divided kingdom will fall. It will always fall because it's fighting against itself. And I feel like I'm getting a little emotional now, but I struggle so much with. We're supposed to be this community of people that are broken and in need of a savior, are saved and have the greatest message in the world, world in all of existence. Yet we want to fight and cut each other down all the time. Like, because, I mean, I can say right now what you were saying about Kaepernick. I would probably fall on the other side where the way that he did it makes more sense to me. But that doesn't mean that you and I can't enter into a conversation and be respectful and still have each other's back. And it drives me nuts because we are supposed to be these bringers of the gospel, the good news, the only thing, thing that has eternal value in the world. And we are blowing each other up on Facebook between people that go to the same church, that are in the same friend group, and we're publicly blowing each other up because of guns or because of left or Right or. Right. And it just. It blows me away that we. We lose so quickly, and I'm just as guilty as anybody else. We lose sight of that. And this is John 17. The idea of our church is talking about this now, oneness and witness that. That actually our unity is what enables us to be a witness to the world. And we don't have oneness. We're blowing other pastors up in other denominations. You know what I mean? Like, I grew up where it's like Joel Olsteen and T.D.

Jakes.

Like, man, you don't quote those guys. You don't read their books. You don't. You know what I mean? It's like Piper MacArthur. Piper and MacArthur. And if you don't know who those people are, it's fine. Just old, white guys, you know, versus Younger. Younger. But either way, I struggle with this.

So much would be more acceptable, right?

Yeah. Well, again, my vantage point. Right. The world I come from, but I just struggle so much with that. And that would be, you know, I mean, who knows who's listening to this? But in all reality, I just wish that we would come together. And. Because unity does not happen, unity takes work because it's messy.

And we're all married. Right? So. Right. So my wife and I come about life from different places. We have a hard time negotiating certain things together. We have moments of intense fellowship. You know what I mean? And yet we can come away from those places, still in love, still committed to our future. We're unified but not uniform in our thinking, our approaches, our strategies. And yet, because of the gospel, we can find this table that we can sit at, and we don't make that table about the things we disagree. What are the things that we can sit at the table and we can eat together. What are the things that we can sit at the table that we can agree on? Take, for instance, Colin Kaepernick's. If you wanted to sit down with that. Okay, you don't like the. I like. I don't like the protest. You like it. But we can sit down at the table and say, should we make sure that everybody can be assured that they're safe in the. In the presence of law enforcement officers? Yes, we can agree with that. So then the next thing would be, is, is there a reason that black males feel like they're not safe? And can we agree that we would work toward that? Yes. Now, what the strategies were, the solutions would be a different. But what if we came about it that way? Don't like the protest. But what Is he really talking about Right. Can we get to the root issue and agree on things that promote unity, oneness and flourishing, quite frankly, for every image bearer. And that's what we're after. I think all of us are after that. For the most part, we just have not been mature enough. There was a skill we learned as a young couple that saved our marriage repeatedly called listening for understanding and not agreement.

That's right.

When you listen only for agreement, the minute that you disagree with whatever is being said, the listening stops and you want to then assert your disagreement, the thing that you disagree about rather than, hey, let me listen for what the message really is to understand that the heart of the person communicating.

Yeah.

And if I get in touch with hearts, not heads, then I'm really. I think I'm close to the way Jesus might be.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So in a given set of circumstances.

So let's. So I mean our world, right? There's just so much division left, right? Black, white, pro police officers against police officer, like whatever it may be. How can we, let's try to get a little practical. Like how can we as an individual be kingdom minded people who are willing to enter into that healthy tension and not react and not jump to disagreement and be someone who brings about that unity that we want?

Yeah, I'll just bring it literally where the rubber meets the road. Where I'm at in east county, there are people that I've served with now in our church that were completely oblivious to the racist history that is Portland. They just had no knowledge. They grew up in a Portland that looked like them and looked like their community. What? There's no racism. What are you talking about? I had no idea of the long history that Portland is sort of the whitest city in America. One of the whitest cities in America for a reason. There's a historic reason that it was not hospitable for African Americans to live here. So the first thing is educate yourself, right? Like be knowledgeable. Because we've got too many people that are saying hurtful things from an ignorant standpoint. They've not. Well, none of us have been educated wholly on American history. In our education system, there's just no way. So we've got to educate ourselves and then do the best that you can to for me is let's get in a relationship, let's get in proximity with people. Because when you're in proximity with people, empathy can flow, compassion can flow, love flows when you're in proximity. But as long as these issues are just that, they're issues, political platforms that are out there somewhere rather than human beings that we interface with. And in east county and has become a very diverse place. So we've got a lot of ethnicity here that didn't used to live here before that. Through gentrification and those type of things that happen in Portland, a lot more diversity has landed in East County. And so we have an opportunity, I think, to build bridges to one another. But we can do damage when we're not knowledgeable about a given set of circumstances, whether it be the police bridge brutality, police funding, all of these type of hot button issues. I've studied a lot over the last five years or so to sort of educate myself on the journey of the church in America so that when I speak, I'm speaking truth, factually documented truth that is at a certain point irrefutable. So knowledge and relationships. I want your kids to have experiences with black males. Not because of the media. When they saw, when they see us on tv, it's almost never portrayed in the right light.

Yeah.

And so, so then if that's all that your children will see of black males, then they will grow up afraid of black males the way that black males grow up afraid of police officers and don't have interactions with them that are, that are fruitful and prosperous and loving. And so, yeah, if we could do that, the relationship and the knowledge piece allows us because it'll allow you to know how to speak to me, to engage. And now we can start a journey together where we can tackle almost anything in relationship.

Those, those two things can be applied to any issue. I mean, I'm thinking about in our, in our lane. Right? The idea of sexual brokenness, education and relationship.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. It's so easy, so easy to be against something as a category because we can define it by all the things we don't like about it, but when it becomes personal and we actually have a real person we're interacting with, well, now it doesn't matter if that person is liberal or Democrat or LGBTQ or black, you know, whatever they stand for as a category. If we start to know them and hear their story of pain like you talked about, hear their broken relationships and we see in their life what makes them make sense. Like we go, oh, I actually see all the things that have led to who you are, and I get it. And how can I not have empathy and compassion for you? Because even if we disagree, at least it's personal now I get you and I can love you because now you're not Just a category. You're a person with a story and a background, and that changes the whole dynamic.

I know we gotta run, but I was on a prayer walk downtown several months ago, me and three other pastors, and we came upon a Black Lives Matter rally. I didn't even know. There was a picture that was taken of us at the rally. And people started calling me Marxist. I'm taking the church in the wrong direction. And all we were literally doing was praying downtown for our city. And we ended up with these people. We heard all this noise. And here's what struck me at the Black Lives Matter rally is there were people of every walk. Homosexual, lesbian, all transgendered. They were there. And you know what? They were crazy. Crying and lamenting. And in the moment, I didn't care what the tenets of the organization were, what the mission statement was, what the philosophy or ideology was. All I saw as a gospel representative is men and women who were broken, men and women who were broken and hurting. And I wanted to wrap my arms around as many of them as I possibly could and just let them know, I see you. And we wept while they were weeping. Imagine that. Weeping with those who weep. Wept with them. And no, I don't agree with the organization, but I wanted to be with those people who were hurting for black lives.

Well, Keith, we really, really appreciate you being with us today and your time and thoughts. One of the ways we've wrapped up a lot of podcasts is just to kind of shout out to our guests and say, what are some last words that you would like to leave our listeners with? What. What's a message? Whether it's about racism, reconciliation, or just what's happening in the world. Like, what's something you'd like to leave our listeners with today?

Choose people over politics every time. Choose people first. Just love human beings.

Yeah.

They don't agree. They don't come in the same. It's not a one size fits all.

That's right. They're messy.

But let's love. Let's. Let's choose people over politics.

Yeah. So good.

Yeah.

Yeah. Appreciate it.

Yeah. So being a safe person and a safe place doesn't just happen. It comes with being intentional, understanding and empathizing with each other. It's worthwhile work. We know that it is. We've seen the fruit of that. Keith, look, man, thank you for all you've done and continue to do in the church. God is using you, and I've seen this personally in some very special ways, and we just appreciate you. What you're doing and then you for being with us today.

Thanks, brother. Keep me in your prayers, brothers. I appreciate it.

Absolutely. And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. You or someone you know is looking for help. Go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you're already subscribed, write a review. It helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.