168 - Sexual Trauma

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

What's up, people?

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 168 of the Pure Desire Podcast here. Joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Waka waka.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Brady's been watching, like, first off, praise the Lord for Disney. What a great and beautiful invention. Also, they have a show on there called Muppet Babies, and as a part of the intro, every single time, Fozzie Bear says waka Waka. Really? Every time. And that's the one part of the intro song that Brady says he always loves. That one.

Wow, that's an amazing connection, considering I don't even know why I thought of that one. That one just kind of pulled out of the air. And I've seen ads for that show, but we don't have anyone young enough to watch it, so I've never seen the new stuff. Interesting to know there's a very personal connection for you, Trevor.

Yes, it's very personal to me. Okay, so we have, I think, a really powerful episode today. One that we didn't enter into lightly, but definitely a powerful episode. But a couple things real quick. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. We're on all the major platforms and if you write a review, it helps people find the podcast. Also, follow us on social media PureDesirePDMI, and then you can search Pure Desire Ministries on YouTube to see clips and other videos from our ministry. And then we're also just really excited. And I say that we're excited and I actually mean it. Even though when we're recording it's a Friday afternoon, we probably need some coffee, and we might not sound super excited. We are excited that The Sexual Integrity 1018 week video course is out in the world.

Yeah. It's a project that in many ways has been in the making for 25 years because it's reflective of the wisdom and experience of Pure Desire Ministries from the beginning, when Ted and Diane Roberts started using this with their church and in small groups and. And they have just, you know, trained generation after generation of leaders of which we're now a part of walking in that. And. And as we've continued to try to help people understand all the factors that play into sexual brokenness and what does it do to relationships and how does it connect to our trauma. Like, when you get into this, you realize there's a lot to learn and so we've been able to put that tremendous, you know, couple decades of learning into this video course in a way, in a format that we think really makes it accessible for individuals, couples, churches. Because when you have this information, it really is a kind of empowering that God can then use your equipping, your knowledge to be a part of the solution, whether in your own life or for someone else. And so if you haven't checked out the video course yet, Sexual Integrity 101 is for you, and I think you're really going to love it.

Yep. So you can grab your digital Access or the DVDs at PureDesire.org 101. Okay, so the conversation today, we had Ashley Jamison, our international Women's Groups coordinator, and then Heather Kolb, who's a speaker, author, content manager for us. We sat down and we had a conversation about a topic that I think that we address a lot in our breakouts at events and more in private conversations, just because that's when it tends to come up. But we talked about sexual trauma.

Yeah. As you mentioned, not an easy or light topic, but definitely one of crucial importance. And as we say in the episode, you know, if anyone's been married to an addict or someone dealing with significant levels of sexual brokenness, there is some degree of sexual trauma in their life without even talking about their past. And then, you know, we discuss some of the rates and percentages of people that have experienced abuse and trauma as kids, and particularly for women, this is a significant topic that honestly, our culture, the church, is just not addressing often enough. It's swept under the rug. I think it makes people uncomfortable, or we feel like, boy, if I talk about my trauma, then I'm implicating whoever perpetrated. But it's like, boy, these are conversations we need to have, not only just in general, but specifically for the people that have experienced trauma to know you're not alone and there is hope and there is healing. And so I hope as we kind of delve into this difficult topic, and really today in one podcast, we're just scratching the surface, but I hope it gives people a new paradigm of understanding what's happened to them and really some significant footprint footholds of what does it look like to move towards greater health and healing.

Yeah. And if you are listening and you don't think you've actually experienced sexual trauma, we talk about what that actually means. It can mean more than actually what you might think. And so we believe that this is a powerful episode that needs to be out there that people need to hear. So go into this. Know that this stuff is going to be helpful for you and those in your life. Heather, Ashley, thanks for coming back. Appreciate it.

Nice to be here.

Glad to be here.

Everything okay?

Yeah.

Okay, just ready to cheer. Okay. So something that we often hear about in the area of sexual brokenness is sexual trauma. And this is something that sadly is a common experience for men and women. It's not just something, man. I think for me growing up, a lot of it was, you would assume that women are sexually abused, and I would say that the higher percentage is in that area. But at the same time, this is something a lot of people experience. And I just, even just. It could be someone's curiosity as a kid. It could be so many different situations. But we want to talk about it specifically. And this was actually something that we had a listener send in. Hey, could we talk about this topic? And so it's going to be a good conversation and maybe a heavy conversation, but the hope is to really. To talk about how it affects our lives and really how to find healing from it. So first thing, this is obviously just a terrible experience for so many people to have experienced sexual trauma, whether you know the person or not in relationship. Is this is sexual trauma just rape and abuse, or can it be more than rape or abuse?

It can definitely, definitely be more. We were just talking about this that if you look at the definition of sexual trauma, it's deeply distressing or disturbing experience. And so from even just talking to people, some people on their wedding night, if they waited until their wedding night to have sex, that was traumatic for them, it was deeply distressing, it was disturbing. And they have to process through why. And so it's. It's not just the boogeyman that comes out and kidnaps somebody and rapes them, but it could be in a marriage. It could be. It could be just sexual curiosity, like you were saying, early exposure, it could be being teased about your body. So many things can impact how we experience sexual health and. And what, you know, constitutes as a trauma.

Yeah.

So you had mentioned that this is something that happens for or to both women and men. And in just recent data, it's about one in four women who, before they're an adult, that they will have experienced some form of sexual trauma or abuse.

That's insane.

Well, it is insane, but like, you.

Don'T think about that number very often. It's crazy how often.

Yeah, well, and the other thing to keep in mind. Oh, and men, it's about 1 in 13 women. But is that sexual abuse is one of the least reported things, you know what I mean? And so there's a lot of people who. Because usually you're abused by somebody, you know, or a family member or something, that they don't ever say anything to anybody. And so even with that, think about those numbers as being lower than really what is reported. Yeah, yeah.

Well. And I think what you're getting at, the question is to help us make sure we broaden the definition of sexual trauma, because it does tend to be an area that can go overlooked. You know, the church especially has been so focused on, you know, helping men with pornography or addiction that we forget that all those men that are married are creating some sort of sexual trauma in their relationships with their wives. And so if. If you've been married to an addict or someone dealing deeply with this issue, there's some level of trauma in your life. And so it's just helping us recognize. We've. We've got to take that very, very seriously to recognize healing will need to happen on both sides and not just one or the other. And that broadly speaking, just like we talk about how when a struggler or an addict comes into our office and our counseling team will say they've never met with someone who overemphasizes their trauma, who is overestimating, that blows it out of proportion. It's our human nature, it's our brain setting to kind of protect ourselves and underestimate or kind of downplay it just so we can feel okay and live with ourselves. And, well, if that's happening in trauma in general, I think we should expect that the same thing happens in sexual trauma that. That we tend to say, well, I just, you know, they all men struggle, or that's just what happened, or we figured it out and moved on, where we really need the ability to stop and say, how has this impacted my worldview? How has it impacted how I see myself and relationships? Because if that trauma doesn't get addressed, healing is going to be very difficult to come by, both individually and in the relationship.

Yeah. And I think, too, that we see this a lot, especially in this area of healing, that people compare trauma like, oh, my parents didn't get divorced, or I wasn't abused. Therefore, I, you know, like you and me personally, our trauma story is very different. It looks completely different. And from the outside looking in, you might think my trauma, I actually don't have trauma compared to you. And the same thing is true in this area of sexual trauma, where we start to minimize It. And then as you're saying, that keeps us stuck in maybe behavior or ways of thinking that keep us stuck in. In a lifestyle or decisions that we don't want to continue making.

Yeah, well, we hear the woman is like, well, my husband didn't have affairs, so I shouldn't be that worried about. And really there you hear in their language, they're comparing. You really can't do that because you have to take seriously what has happened in your life and the impact it's had any, whether from childhood or as an adult in your relationships.

Yep.

Yeah, that's a good point.

So sometimes when we're talking about traumatic events and particularly sexual trauma, it can be things that happen to a person early in life or maybe within a family of origin, childhood issues. I'm guessing. You know the stats, Heather, but of that, the abuse you mentioned, the one out of four, usually that's from someone they know, it's not a stranger. So in those situations, it's not uncommon that it maybe happened really, really young, or it's a part of their life they've just mentally kind of blocked off. So how might someone know if they've experienced some sexual trauma early in life or what. What would you say? Just along those lines, because we're not obviously trying to recreate memories or imagine something that didn't happen. And there are fields of psychology that seem to veer into that, and we don't want to go into that kind of thinking. But how can we maybe honestly explore if this is something that we dealt with early in life?

Yeah, and that's a great question. We hear this a lot at conferences, that people will come up and talk to us and say, you know, I don't have any memory in my childhood before the age of 10 years old. Why is that?

What would men say before 18?

Right. Yeah.

Wow.

And I think that our brain, especially if we have something that happened that even for children when they're abused so young that they can't even assimilate, they can't even fit it into their own worldview. And so their brain just kind of covers it up and they can't remember any of it. And that I. I mean, it's common, I think, for people who have had really traumatic and abusive situations. And. And we just encourage them to still get counseling or get something, because your brain, as you get healthy, your brain will reveal some of those things. But I think you're right in suggesting that we don't want people to go in to counseling or in an environment and be Put in a situation where their brain is kind of creating something that maybe didn't really happen. I think there's danger there. And. But yet at the same time, wanting people to know the truth of where some of their behaviors that they're struggling with today, where are those coming from? Because they come from somewhere, and I think that's an important piece of it. Yeah.

Yeah. And, I mean, a lot of people have heard my story, but my trauma when I was raped at 15, that was, like, clearly a trauma. I knew that. I identified that. But I've told the story that it wasn't until I was taking a group of leaders through behind the mask and hearing other leaders talk about their sexual experiences. So that question again, of, like, it doesn't always look this one way. It's children curiosity. Maybe they saw something and they start playing around with each other, and then it just escalates. I'm listening to that, and I'm like, that so happened to me. That's what we did. That's. There's all kinds of things that were just like those gray areas where you're not sure whose fault it is, and so you start to feel it's your fault. You're a little kid, and you're, you know, you kind of just say, I'm a bad kid. I don't ever want to tell anybody that. But as I was hearing that, I'm like, oh, I have sexual trauma that started even before. Before the rape. And I had to really process through that in order to be able to share my story. And then as I'm sharing my story to other people, more and more women, like, I've never told anybody that. And, I mean, even just friends, I've never told anybody that. I went through that, too, and I carried so much shame. And I still sometimes see those friends. And, you know, it's just. It's really. I actually think it's just so much more common even than what we have documented.

Yes.

From just talking to people, you know, so I'm either getting every fourth person in my friend group, or we have a lot of trauma that's unreported.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. I think about that in my story. I don't. There's not something I think about that was done to me that I feel like was traumatic. But what's interesting is, as you were describing that, I remember the first time a neighbor girl just pulled her pants down, you know, and just like, well, this is what it looks like. And it was like a. Show me yours. I'll show you mine. Kind of weird kid thing, which is really just fueled by curiosity at that point. It's not some form of massive sexual brokenness, but the fact that I can remember that means that it was seared in there somehow. And I think maybe that's how people can start to explore if it was trauma or not is what are the things you can remember about sex or sexuality when you were a kid?

Yeah, well. And I can imagine for some listeners or viewers there may be thinking, well, if, if I can't remember it, wouldn't it be better just to move on and not try to, you know, isn't that a good thing that I've forgotten? And there may be scenarios where the brain does just move on and won't remember your whole life. But if it's something that's been protected in our subconscious memory, when you're in a healthy environment, like a group or a good counseling situation where you're starting to process your pain and, and maybe if. Start to bubble to the surface, I think of it kind of like dealing with scar tissue or something unhealthy in your body that doesn't belong. You know, if, if your doctor, you know, has you go through X rays and find something in your body that's a growth or not meant to be there, they don't go, oh, well, you know, don't worry about it. If it's not hurting you, let's not worry about it. Right. They say that's not supposed to be there. Let's clean it, let's get it out. Because you'll be a healthier, better person if it's not there. And I, I think with traumatic memories or experiences from childhood, we want to take that same approach again, not trying to force a memory or recreate anything. But if, as I'm moving towards health and the safety that can come in a really supportive community, if I start to realize, I think there's some doors opening that I've never talked about rather than fear, that see it as an opportunity to say, wow, there may be some things that could get dealt with that I would find freedom I haven't before. And it is also a good situation if you do begin to recognize, like in your story, Ashley, some deeper stuff that's there that really is. If you're not in a supportive counseling situation, that would really be an ideal time to seek out some professional help, someone that is trained specifically in this area of dealing with sexual trauma, past childhood stuff, because that, that can be really tough to bring out in a. Just a Small group where we're all there as volunteers to learn and grow together. So if you start to experience, there's a lot there that's, that's when we would really encourage you to reach out for professional help.

Yeah, yeah. And something that you're saying, you know, if, well, if it's, if I don't remember it, then why don't you explore it? I think Heather and I see this a lot in our women's breakouts. We get so many women that they shut down physically when they're trying to be sexually intimate with their spouse or they, they don't like it, they feel disgusted, they feel shamed. And it's like, not necessarily that there's an abuse or a, you know, a clear cut sexual trauma that happened to them, but if you start digging, there is something traumatic surrounding sex. Whether it's what they heard from their parents or just they, they only learned from watching tv. And that looked really scary and violent and, and that's their picture of what sex should look like. And, and it's supposed to be a good thing given by God. And so it's not natural to feel. Yeah, it's not normal. It's not the way God designed us to feel shut down and scared or fearful during sex. So if that's you, then you may want to look like what, what is surrounding sex and my ideas about sex that's causing me to feel distress when I'm having sex with my spouse.

It's interesting as we're talking about this, you start to think about, you know, childhood stuff. I remember that's why you need group.

Everybody needs group.

In fairness, I've been through a group a couple times, three to be exact, if we're counting Ashley. But whatever. That was a terrible joke. Anyway, so I think back to when I was a kid. I can remember what street we were on. I can remember who was there. A friend of mine asked, and I didn't know what this mean, asked if I was a virgin. And I looked to my other friend and my friend's like, say no, say no, say no. That's what you should say, say no. So I'm like, no. And then they laughed about it and I didn't get it. And what's funny is like, I, at this point in my recovery, I've not tied a whole lot to that experience. But I can remember that experience as we're talking about this, that there was some form of wound or hurt that happened around the topic of sexuality. And then that is actually very closely related. And I think that because I've told this story before, the first time I heard the F word, I asked my parents about it and they responded really negatively. And like, we don't say that word. Oh. And it just like immediately put shame on the topic. But that experience with my friends is where I heard that word and then that's tied to a trauma. So it's kind of interesting. My timeline has expanded a little bit. You're experiencing it right now.

We can have group with you here. We're here to help.

Yeah. Can we just scrap the rest of the question? No.

Tell us more.

So I have heard people ask this question and I know that it's a question that a lot of people who've experienced trauma ask, but maybe not ask another person. They think about this a lot. So is sexual trauma ever our fault?

No. The clear answer is no. Sexual trauma is never your fault. Especially if it's a victim, perpetrator situation. No. I mean, as you guys know my story of drinking with these older guys and I ended up getting raped because I was drunk and maybe being flirty didn't give a grown man permission to rape a 15 year old like that. That's not an excuse. You know. Now looking back and going forward with my kids, I'm going to teach them to not put them in those themselves in those risky situations. Like I'm, you know, you can avoid certain situations sometimes, sometimes you can't. But then like we were talking about in the other question, sometimes sexual trauma is. There is no bad guy. You know, it's curiosity or for me, it was like childhood curiosity that led to some bad behaviors that were unhealthy. For me that, that warped my idea about sex and sexuality and my own worth. And so then getting into unhealthy relationships and, and carrying that sexual trauma into my marriage, that wasn't, yeah, my husband's fault, but because I hadn't process it or dealt with it. Now I have this sexual trauma in marriage because of stuff that happened in childhood and some of it me, you know, doing or watching myself. And nobody was the person doing it to me. Or like I said, children doing stuff with each other. And there was no like bad guy. It was kids being curious that that caused trauma that then I carried into my marriage. So yeah. But no, it's never a victim's fault if they're abused or traumatized by somebody else.

I think that that's a common feeling, you know, that people feel that way. I remember talking to one woman and her, and she had been sexually Abused by a father and an uncle, but she also had a sister who, as far as she knew, was never abused. And so her pain and shame, not only from that experience, but was that. What was it about me that made them think it was okay? But they didn't do that to my sister. And so, not that she wanted it to happen, but that was part of her trauma, was that she did carry this feeling that this was my fault, that there had to be something about me that made this whole thing okay for them. And I can't imagine that. I can't imagine just carrying the weight of that all your life and still always wondering, you know, because I think, well, really, it's an unanswerable question. You know what I mean? And so. But for that person, it's huge. It totally defined and shaped her life and everything that came after.

Yeah. I think what we're trying to say is we have to be careful that we never take responsibility for someone else's bad choices. What they did to us, what they chose to do with their sexuality, with their body, that is not on us. And I agree. I think that's a message that gets stuck in people's head of, well, I should have been smart enough to leave that party earlier. I should have known better not to do that. Or if I was only giving them more sex at home, they wouldn't have had that affair. Or if there was. Or the other thing I hear people do is kind of assigning to their childhood self adult wisdom. And it's like, well, I should have known, like, you were six. You should not have known better. You were six. And that's not on you, that you appeared vulnerable or weak or whatever happened. And so I think we can look into situations to learn from them, you know, to get smarter or wiser or. Or how we might advise someone else, but to make sure we're only being responsible for our actions and then not taking on blame for someone else's bad choices. Because really, I think that is part of what leaves someone stuck in trauma is now they're trying to own something that's not theirs to own. And they need to see that where they were a victim to someone else's sinful choices. And I think that will help them release some of it and. And find the healing they need to from those experiences.

Yeah, And I think, too, we talk about this even just in our. Our normal trauma sessions, that if you witness trauma, it can cause trauma. You know, if you witness somebody else being abused, it can cause severe trauma. And so as you're talking about, like, that sister. My sister had a similar reaction when she saw. The first time I recorded my inner, you know, my. My life history, or I don't even know what it was. I was recording something and she was watching it, and she's like, I had to turn it off. Like, I could not watch it. I was crying. And she was totally traumatized. But it was more, I'm your big sister. I should have protected you. I should have known that. And so I think her hearing my trauma was, like, traumatic to her. And so it. I think you can, you know, you can see somebody else be sexually traumatized, and then. And now you have trauma that you have to deal with, you know, So I.

This may sound super meta, but it's something I've been experiencing personally very recently, is that if I can't explain something like why something is going wrong or that it brings pain to me, I'm very quick to blame myself in that. Like, so, I mean, even in marriage, like, if you're not having sex with your spouse and you can't really explain it, like, you guys have, like, good conversations. There's nothing. There's no tension in the house. Like, all the factors look like they should be lined up, yet it's not happening. For me, when I'm in experiences or situations like that, whether it's with friends or at work or with my wife, it's very easy to blame myself. And so I think that's. That. That's the scary part of it, is that we can assign blame to ourselves just to make sense of the brokenness that's there. And I think that that's actually really scary because then that, like, this woman carries shame for the rest of her life because of this and affects her relationship and her parenting and her work. It's just a lot.

Yeah, well, it probably gives you a sense of control, too. If you've been sexually abused and you felt so unsafe, it's like, okay, if it's my fault, then I can. I can control that. I don't have to worry about somebody else. You know, it can be scary.

Well, it's clear that sexual trauma impacts us, impacts us deeply. And so let's talk a little bit about how sexual trauma impacts the brain. Heather, what have you seen in that area?

So I think that. And I know that pure desire. We talk a lot about this, about how we have these. Our limbic response, this area of our brain that was designed to keep us safe, that when there's a threat in our environment, that we. We Will either fight back or we will flee the situation or sometimes freeze. And we talk a lot about that, But I think that really it's more than that that happens. I mean, that system, that defense circuitry definitely plays a role. But then I think that the way that we get these chemical reactions to affecting our dopamine and our serotonin and cortisol enters the picture, which is this stress hormone that really works with that system. I think that when we experience small chunks of threat, that's great because we can react. That's what our brain was designed to do. And we can flee or we can run away, whatever it is that we're gonna do. And then we get to a safe place and we're done. And then everything goes back to normal. In our brain. When we experience trauma, though, there's something that happens. And especially if it's consistent trauma and in our environment, that all of those systems that are meant to give us this heightened state of awareness and then it's going to go back to this normal thing that going back doesn't happen. And so it's like we have this switch in our brain and in our body that is stuck on. And so which really ends up being problematic for our brain and physiologically. But the way that. That plays out in relationship or like you were saying in. In marriage, or the way that we parent and all of those things become affected because we have this unprocessed trauma that is keeping our brain in this one position. And that it wasn't ever intended to be like that. And so I think that that's really what's happening and it plays out in our life. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's really good explanation. I remember you telling me that that's kind of what was happening with my brain grasping for control when I was going through my OCD and like checking the locks 500 times, my wallet. And it was just like, why am I doing all these things? And it was just. It was. It was just like I was heightened to everything. Danger. Well, personal story of how trauma affects the brain. This was really interesting because John and I, when we moved into our new house about almost seven years ago now, he made up these little special drinks and we were having a barbecue and I took a drink of it and. And I could tell it had vodka in it. But I can I say that on here, I'm an adult. I am an adult. I am 35 years old.

Here's her driver's license number.

I took a drink. It was just. We were just having fun. I Mean, it was like a really great day. Sunny. I started shaking and trembling and just crying because I hadn't had vodka since I had been raped. And just that smell, the taste, it brought me right back there. And so it was. It was like a real eye opener. Like, kind of what you're saying, Nick. Like, you don't think stuff is in there, but it's. It's affecting me somehow. And so we just ended up talking about it and. And processing through that. And I just, like, sat there and cried with him for a while. And it, like, it just all came out, all my trauma and just sadness and everything from that experience. And, you know, now I can have vodka, but with moderation. Yeah. Healthy Christian adult way.

Yeah, I think she's drinking water.

We've talked a lot about it. That neurons that fire together wire together. And that can be good or bad. And so in your story, you know, there's a very negative association to something, but we know that other people can have the opposite struggle where because they experienced some pain and abuse or maybe something very negative that was also linked to what the body is designed to do sexually. To feel pleasure, to have a response, even if that was something done abusively to us. We may have had this very unique wiring in our brain of some pain and pleasure that carries with us into relationships where we feel guilty or wrong or dirty, that. That we like some pain and sex together or something abusive makes us feel sexual. And maybe we've never connected back. That is an outcome of sexual trauma. That's not just the way I am or I'm not just kinky or weird or perverted. It's a byproduct of my story. And when we can make sense of that, just like what you said in your story, it didn't mean you never had vodka again. You can actually become aware of it and start to move through the pain and the triggers associated with it. So I think if we can recognize that, it really allows us to deal with the outcome and hopefully change that connection. Because over time, as we've also talked a lot about, the brain can be rewired, which is exciting.

Yeah. Just leading women's groups and. And leading addict women's groups there and the betrayed groups. There's a lot of women who say, I don't know why, like, rape scenes will arouse me or. And. And they don't know where that came from. And then as we start digging through, they can. They can figure out, like, why is that, like, danger and pain associated with arousal? And it's so shaming. It's so shaming to. To say that. And they're embarrassed. But. And I say that out loud because I know that there could be women listening to this podcast who have these fantasies or, you know, certain things are triggering to them in a. In a happy way or a bad way, you know, and. But they feel wrong about it.

And.

And like you're saying it's not how we were designed to be, there's probably something attached to that that is creating that for us.

Well, and we've talked a lot about this too. Just, you know, the way that sometimes you don't really know what's normal or what's not normal, you know, because of your environment, you think that all people are this way. You know, that if you had an abusive dad who beat your mom, then, and you are being abused in your marriage, you're just gonna think that's normal, that all husbands beat their wives. And so I think that that's the same with sexual trauma, is that you don't know what. You don't know that this isn't the way it's supposed to be, that sex isn't supposed to be shameful with your spouse. And that can be another thing of. Of recognizing that, okay, there's something here that needs to be investigated.

And that, I think is a unique pocket of shame that I see is that when we feel shame around a topic that we realize is not a shameful thing, that actually doubles down on the shame. And that's a really scary place to be. And so because of that, we don't want to get stuck in that thinking, and we don't want to just leave. As Nick, you were talking about the scar tissue. We don't want to just leave the trauma there. So what does it look like to actually start healing our trauma?

Well, first, I would just say counseling, like, if you recognize any trauma, especially with sexual abuse, counseling is going to be the best place for you with somebody who's really trained in that area, but just like a real life example. And I know I've told this story before. One time I was standing in the kitchen, and John came up behind me and, like, kissed my cheek, and I got, like, shivers down my spine, and I was like, ugh.

And I like bad shippers.

Bad shivers.

Got it. Yeah, Sorry.

Not like, sorry, no, I got bad shivers. And he was like, whoa, what was that? And I was like, I don't know. It felt very threatening to have somebody come up behind me like that. And. And we've always, like, you know, when you do those marriage things, like, what do you need more of? What do I need more of? I'm like, he. He always says, I need more kisses, and I don't like kissing at all. And so when that happened, I'm like, maybe there's. Maybe there's a reason why I don't like kissing, which is a normal, natural thing for a husband and wife to do. And so I was working through behind the mask, actually. Which brings you back to those teenage years. And I was thinking about my teenage years, and I thought every kiss I ever had before marriage, you shouldn't kiss before marriage. I had before marriage was very.

We're taking that out.

We're taking that out of the episode was very aggressive. It was all very aggressive. It was coming from men who wanted more than just kissing. And so there was just like this always this fighting off feeling either internally or physically sometimes. And so now I'm in this mountain, this marriage that's healthy. And kissing is, like, been associated with something negative this whole time. And so I did have to retrain my brain. I had to talk about it in group. I've shared it several times, like, and I had to kind of own it, you know, because you have this perspective of what you should be like as a wife. And I'm just like. I could either just pretend and be like, oh, I need to be more loving and be the kind of wife he likes, but I had to be honest, be like, there's something there. It's not you, but this is traumatizing for me, and I do not enjoy it. And so we just started working through it and saying, okay, we're gonna have to, like, talk about this. We're gonna have to practice. So we started practicing kissing and, and, and just like naming it, saying, okay, I'm with John. He loves me. He's attractive. We like each other. It's safe. He's not trying to, like, rape me, you know, Like, I. I had to.

Like, talk my brain retraining your brain.

Totally, totally. And so now, like, I enjoy kissing, but I still. I still just, like, forget to do it. I need, like, a little rubber band reminder or something. But. But it's not traumatic, at least now. It's totally, like a pleasurable thing for me now.

Yeah, it is, though. Hard to recognize those things. I think for a lot of people, and even for couples or married couples who have these negative experiences, I think that there's so much shame with it. And they don't have healthy communication and they don't even know how to talk about it. That, like you said, getting counseling would be a great first step. But I think even more than that is just recognizing that this is something that if I want to retrain my brain, that I need to be intentional about it, that I need to treat it like any other thing, like whether it was dieting or. Or any of those other things that we do to keep. To keep ourselves healthy, that we need to put those things in place with our spouse. To say, this is an area that I need some help with, that I need counseling, that maybe we need counseling, whatever that looks like, and work from there.

Yeah. And there's a saying within recovery communities that really is used a lot because I think there's a lot of truth to it. And it's just that simple phrase that you have to feel to heal, that you have to be willing to experience it, even if it's negative. Because in a lot of ways, those negative emotions, I think of it like a. It's like a wave of energy in your life. And very often, maybe especially in Christian circles, when we start to feel something negative, we've kind of been taught to suppress it, like, whoa, don't feel that. And really, we're taking that negative energy and shoving it back down, but it's keeping it encased in our souls, when really feeling those emotions is like releasing the energy of that wave and letting it wash through us. And yeah, it might be hard, but it leads to a calmer, healing place, which is really what, like, the grieving cycle is all about. So that may be part of our healing, too, is we have to maybe grieve a family of origin, issue that someone was a perpetrator in our family, and we've learned to love them and forgive and move on, but we maybe need to name and claim that was wrong, and I need to face that or to grieve something about our childhood that wasn't as innocent as we thought or a relationship. So that grieving process is hard, but we feel to heal. And as we go through the grieving process to really come to an acceptance, then we can build and grow into something new. So it's really like releasing the power of that negative energy in safe, supportive environments and faith communities that can help us in that process.

Yep. And I think that that's one of the areas I have seen in the church that's negatively impacted me is that we don't. Like, we had this family thing that happened, and I remember this. We were having some tension in the family, and one of my brothers just Said to me, just forgive and get over it. And that's such a Christian perspective, right? And that is what Jesus teaches, that we should forgive and that we should try to work toward restoration, period. But the answer in the moment was, like, it's not that simple. Like, trauma happened. Like, stress and anxiety are very present. And it's not like we can just go in and put a forgiveness bow on it, tie it, and then walk away. Like, that's not how it works. And so I think that, I mean, one reason I'm happy we're even talking about this topic is because it needs to be something that becomes a part of conversation and a part of a church's ministry and helping people heal from this. And not because it's a great ministry and it's something that's going to help save millions of lives. It's going to be something that normalizes conversations in a culture that then allows people to understand that what you're talking about, grieving, it's very difficult. It's also very messy. It's not a clean. Like, the table is completely clear when we walk away. Like, that's not. There's always going to be stuff still left on the table that we have to continue to work through.

Yeah, well, we talk about that. Dealing with sexual brokenness in the church is incredibly uncommon. You know, not having really a plan what to do for people that are dealing with pornography and affairs. And. And if that's true, I mean, dealing with sexual trauma is lagging even behind that. And so we're really needing to create safe, supportive environments like that. And so to that end, on the next question, what kinds of therapy or counseling or group work could people pursue in this area?

I would think that your first step would be, and especially, of course, taking into consideration the level of trauma that you've experienced. But meet with a counselor, just one on one, that has specialized training in sexual trauma or family of origin, all of those things, that would be a great place to start. And I think that for a lot of people, they'll meet one on one for several months with a counselor, and when the individual is ready, sometimes they'll put them into a small group still led by a professional counselor. But there's some power in that that comes from, like you've mentioned this, of being able to hear someone else's story and to almost reframe how you think about your own personal trauma. But there's power in that. There's, you know, of feeling like, okay, I. I didn't do anything. This wasn't my fault. This is how I've. You know, other people have found healing. This is. You know, I think that there's so much strength that comes from that. And especially, you know, usually you're going to be in. If you're a woman, you're going to be with other women. If you're a man, you're going to be with other men. And. And I think that it's creating that safe environment that. That you can talk about these things and again, with a professional. And then we see this all the time with women who go through betrayal and beyond or unraveled that it will come up, like, even in the middle of group something, you know, like somebody stops doing their homework or seems really defensive about what we're talking about. And. And that might be a time that they even leave that small group and. And go and get some counseling because they have something that's deep there that they need to work on.

Yeah, that. And just like what Trevor experienced, he's like, well, as you talk about things, it makes you remember other things. And I think that is why starting with counseling is great, and then going to group, because you will remember certain things. I remember hearing some other moms or some other group members talk about, like, their parents and just the level of strict that was in their house. You know, we weren't allowed to watch these shows. And here I am, like, 4 years old watching rated R, like, Sleeping with the Enemy or whatever show, you know, is in my cabinet. And I remember just feeling that. And then, you know, live in babysitters. And then we had this older guy live with us who brought the man that raped me, you know, and so I just felt like. I felt so unprotected compared to, like, how. How Trevor was saying our trauma is so different, but he has trauma from maybe this rigid household, you know, where there was shame around sex. And I have trauma from nobody watching me. And I remember just crying for weeks. I mean, my friend who's a pastor's wife, she came over and she knocked my door and opened it, and, like, my hair was just, like, mangled. My eyes are bloodshot. She's bringing me coffee. She's like, how long have you been crying? I'm like, I don't know, like, two weeks. I didn't have a mom who took care of me and watched me, you know, and it just felt. It was a real grief. Like, I love my mom. I don't blame her, but I. I had to grieve that I didn't have somebody watching me like, you should watch little kids protecting what was going in my mind or teaching me how to be a woman that respected myself and didn't just let any man treat me, however. And that was a real grief for me. And it just, it took weeks to just let it out.

Yeah, yeah. I think we want to encourage people to find those communities. I mean, that's the kind of work that women will do in their unraveled groups and in Betrayal and beyond. And for men, even going through seven pillars, you're going to look into not only the stuff you've done, but what's been done to you and where's your trauma coming from. So the group work through pure desire can be a big part of that. And obviously our counseling team is here to help. We do work with women one on one that have betrayal, trauma and sexual trauma issues. Another name or group I think people should know is Marnie Faree and Bethesda Workshops in Tennessee. She does more of a week long, intensive kind of approach. And if you're really at an intense place of walking through some of this, that's another great resource to reach out to. So I, I think the important message we want to say is there are people that are trained to do this kind of work. You know, if you find a certified sex addiction therapist or there's many other groups that work in the partner trauma as well, you don't need to just go to the yellow Pages. Does anyone use yellow Pages anymore? You don't need to just find a random counsel.

Explain this yellow pages thing to me.

That's another episode that you really can with the Internet, through some pretty simple searches, become aware of the groups that are out there, what their foundations are, and find there's probably someone in your area that this is what they're trained to do. And it's like going, we've talked about this too. It's like going to the specialist. If you have a foot injury, you need to go to a foot doctor. There's general doctors that can maybe give you some advice, but go to someone that this is what they do. And I think in sexual trauma it's like, well, I'll just find a nice counselor. Find a counselor that this is what they do because they're going to be able to take you, I think, so much deeper and further. And I really believe that little bit of investment you'll make to find them is really worth it.

I think that one of the reasons, and this could be totally off the wall, but one of the reasons I think people don't go to specific therapists. Like that is. Because then I'd have to admit that's what actually happened. Like, if I just go to a general counselor, it could be for general issues. But if I go to a sexual addiction therapist then, or a sexual trauma therapist, then I have to admit that that's a part of my life. I'll make sure that the counseling page, the group's page for pure desire, and then the Bethesda workshops are in the show notes. Another thought I had too is, and Ashley, you're a perfect example of this. As you share your trauma, it helps other people make connections that they didn't have. And so whether you start with therapy or counseling or you start with group, whatever it may be, you telling your story has a lot of power in community, especially in this area, because it's not talked about in the church. Normally, this isn't a normal conversation. So I think that one of the things I would encourage people who are listening is that if you have experienced sexual trauma, there does need to be some healing work on the front end before you just start trying to help other people, because that tends to be even more traumatic for you. But once you've experienced some healing and you have some recovery there, I think that that's an important piece that we need to consider, is that our story can also help connect some dots and help people heal. Okay, so, Ashley, I'm going to go to you on this one, because you have kind of already explained some limbic responses, right? So having trauma can cause us to get triggered by certain things or respond limbic, limbically in the moment. How do we manage those limbic responses? Because even though you like the kissing thing or the vodka thing, how many times can we say vodka on this episode? Those things maybe still might be triggering years and years and years into recovery. So what does it look like to still get triggered by something like that, but then handle it in a healthy way?

Well, it's so similar to all of our other resources that we use to help you identify your triggers and just becoming so aware. So if you've gone through the counseling and you've gone through group and now you're aware of your triggers, it doesn't mean that they're not going to come up again. Even just. I was telling Heather I was just a doctor's appointment for something totally unrelated, and the tension I was holding in my body, he had asked me, he's like this kind of personal question, but have you ever been sexually abused? And I said, yeah, I have. He's like, the kind of tension you're carrying I see in sexual abuse victims. And I was not even aware of it until he pointed it out. So I had to go to a couple physical therapy appointments for it.

Wow.

And I had to. And I recognized that I was like, I mean, you can't see me, but I was, like, tense. My whole body was tense.

A camera right there if people watch.

My whole body was tense all the time, and I did not even recognize it. And that was just last year. I was 34. And he had connected it to trauma. He said, I see this a lot in women. And so just, like, new stuff may come up, but if you have something that is a trigger for you and you're feeling physically like it just jacked you up or you're stuck, you can't sit on that, it's not going to go away. And so you may need another round of group. You may need to just check back in with your therapist if you're not able to use tools and to tell yourself the truth and maybe share it with a friend who can talk to you about it and you can process it. If you're still. If it's still coming up, then. Then it means it's not done. I mean, you should be able to remember the situation without it completely taking charge of your body. And I know that if you're. If you're freshly out of a abuse situation or something sexually traumatic just happened to you, it can feel like that will never happen, but it absolutely can change to where you're not feeling like you're a prisoner in your own body and mind anymore. And so just keep doing the work.

I think that triggers like you're talking about, that those should be such a clear signal to us that something is there. And I was telling you that I had something recently, within the last year, where my husband and I were talking about sex, and we have a great sex life, and all of that is good. But he mentioned something, and I immediately just responded. So out of character for me, just overreacted to this thing. And. And even then, my first response was, ooh, I don't even want to know what's there. You know, I became my own worst patient because. Yeah. And so. But I talked to a couple friends, but even now, there's this divide in me, this conflict, because I know that it was so out of character, and so there's probably something there. But then at the same time, there's this fear connected to it that, what if I don't want to know what that is connected to because I'm good, my life is great. But then I also know that, okay, I had a previous marriage and there could be something there or something from even before. And so, you know, how, how brave am I going to be to explore that is.

Sounds like a good follow up podcast right there. How did Heather explore her trigger? Yeah, I, I think it's, it's what we've heard in some of the work we've done with the ITAP community where their trainers say, what makes this make sense? When we have a trigger? Being willing to ask the question, what makes this make sense? Because there's something here that's out of character, out of the norm. I'm responding to something, I shouldn't respond that way in a normal, healthy relationship and being willing to trace it back. And I think as we become aware of the triggers, it is a place where, just like we would talk about, if someone has sexual triggers, if someone has trauma or abuse triggers, that's a value of using your three Circles tool because you can identify what are healthy guardrails. I need to have to say when I'm triggered by past abuse, where don't I go, you know, I don't go drink more vodka. I don't, you know, numb out on TV show. There's things that maybe we realize will move me further into unhealth that I have healthy guardrails about. And then I also have defined where do I go instead that, that when I'm triggered, what helps me go back to a place of peace and calm and stability? Is it calling a group member? Is it going for a walk and taking deep breaths? Is it listening to that favorite worship song? Is it getting out in the garden or working on a hobby? You know, for all of us it may be something different, but I think in those moments we have to have clearly defined, when I'm feeling this old negative trigger, I need to know where I go with it that helps me regain stability. And if, because if we don't know, then we're more likely to choose the unhealthy places, that the trigger just takes us deeper into our spiral. So it's using that three Circles tool to your advantage, even when it comes to a trauma or abuse trigger?

Yeah, it's good.

Okay, so what are other ways, you know, we talk about triggers. What are other ways that sexual trauma might show up in our daily lives? Like what could people be looking for just to be more aware in this area?

I think definitely the way we behave in relationship, which I think can be really Hard, Especially in a church community, because a lot of the women that we have talked with, they have so much shame around it. But then there's also this thing where, okay, well, I can't talk badly about my husband or I can't go. And even if it's to get counseling, they kind of feel like they're in this. That they're stuck in this cultural system. And so just being able to encourage people to, you know, that it's okay for you to talk about something, especially if you're even in your marriage, there's something that's abusive to go and get help. And, you know, and I think that that is a good place to just encourage people to even, like you said, a group or a safe person, somebody that you can talk to. And then, of course, all the triggers that we've talked about, because I think that those are the things that are outside of our awareness. You know what I mean? That those just come up and. And when we can sit back down and be calm again and say, okay, there might be something there to be.

Willing, yeah, well, it just screws up your normal interaction. I've spoken to so many wives, and I've experienced this myself, where sex can be so traumatic, even within the marriage. There was a time where I just cried all the time. Every time I had sex, I cried. And that's not normal. And. But I've actually spoken to a lot of women who have experienced that same thing. And I'm like, you got to take a pause and figure out where that's coming from. And a lot of times the response is, well, I can't deny my husband any sex, but yet this person is. She hates it. It's causing some kind of trauma, whether she knows where it's coming from or not. And it's okay to take a break from that and to figure out what's going on so that you can have a healthy relationship. Because then what happens is that same couple during the day, it's like, oh, I can't change in front of my husband. Like, hurry up, he's coming. Like, you know, you. You start acting weird because you don't want anything to trigger him sexually. You're avoiding it because it's not a good thing for you. And so then it just throws off the whole relationship all day long. And you can take that frustration and anger or pain out on your children or just, no, I don't want to come sit by you on the couch. You know, which is a normal, healthy action for a married couple, because then it Might lead to other things or you just can start acting funny because you're afraid to get close with each other.

That reminds me of we had Bob and Rebecca Vandermeer on an episode called Sex during Recovery. And that is actually what they talked about, that they may have to take a season of no Sex in the Marriage to retrain it. And one of the things that always stuck with me is he would walk by and if he would touch Rebecca or hug Rebecca, she had learned that that response means he wants something else. And I remember how messed. I just totally messed up my brain and my marriage a little bit in the best way. But yeah, I think that's another episode maybe to go back and listen to and understand. But to Heather, to this question, what you were mentioning, I think that if there's something small that maybe happens every day or maybe a small interaction that doesn't seem to be, I don't know, powerful or like out of the ordinary, but yet you blow up. That to me is like, okay, there's something there. Right. I could tell you stories about recently with my 3 year olds, not big interactions that I feel like I blow up and it's because of trauma. And so I think in the, in the sexual realm, if there's something that's happening sexually or you're in a situation where sex is part of the conversation or the context and you blow up like that, that's probably an indicator and where it shows up.

Yeah, I think we need to be willing to look to it and we've kind of said it, but just to emphasize what do we actively avoid? Because someone might just think of, well, we don't ever have sex. There must be no trauma. It's like if, if you're actively avoiding intimacy kind of things in your relationship, that's a good indication of there's maybe some trauma associated here. And just because we avoid something or don't do something doesn't mean we're healthy. And so being willing to look into those situations to find out what's going on, I think is something that could show up daily for us.

Well, I think it's the opposite of what Trevor said. Like you may be able to recognize the overreactions really well, but you, it's hard to act like recognize when you're under reacting.

When you're not reacting at all.

Yeah, exactly. To something. And that's where being in group or counseling for somebody to say that's not normal, you know, because under reactions are really hard to identify. You're just like, I'm Just. It's not a big deal. I just. I just don't like having sex. We haven't done it in 30 years, and we've been married for, you know, like. Yeah, it's like, wait, whoa, whoa. What? That is not healthy or normal. There's something there that needs to be explored.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I feel like when we have episodes like this, it's like, man, I have so much more to learn and grow in. Right. More work to do, for sure. So let's end the episode with this question. How do we know we've actually started that healing process? I think it's hard to put those mile markers down so we know. What can we look for?

Well, I think just kind of the stuff we're talking about where maybe things that used to be something we avoided or were a trigger for us don't have such a hold on us anymore. But one of the big things for me is that I. I don't have shame in my story, and I can use it in order to help other people. There was a time where I was like, I didn't want to talk about any of it, or if I did, I would just start crying. And now I can talk about it. So much so that I can. I think I've told this story in one of the podcasts before, but help my daughter. You know, when I found my. My niece and my daughter videotaping their Netherlands to each other and exploring out of curiosity of, like, what does yours look like? I can't see it. Take a picture of mine and show it to me. You know, it was like. You know, it was just curiosity, but instead of blowing up, I was able to explain, this is normal child curiosity. But if we don't protect and safeguard our bodies and, you know, it can lead to confusion. So come to mom for that. And then I was able to say that I've experienced some of that when I was a little kid, that we were curious, and it. It just. It snowballed, and it led into other things that made me feel bad about myself and made me feel like I was a bad kid. And then a couple, you know, months down the road, she was at a friend's house, and when I picked her up, she's like, I don't want to go there because they wanted to do things with my private parts, and they wanted to kiss, and that made me feel uncomfortable. And, like, she was able to just tell me that right away. And apparently this stuff had been going on at the neighbor's house for over a year. But it was when Ayla got involved that it stopped right that day. And so I was like, I, I felt a little bit proud, like, yay. I used my trauma to like, you know, help. And it, and it's, it's sad, but if you don't process your trauma, then you're gonna avoid it. I have parents that say my daughter's outta control, she's sleeping around. I've had an abortion before. I never wanted her to find out. I never wanted. And it's like, if you have shame and trauma around this area, you're going to parent out of fear. You're going to be in relationships that are not truly authentic because when it gets too close to that area, you're going to back up and back out. And that's, it's, it's going to just hinder true, deep relationships with people.

We've talked a lot about people who have sexual trauma and that counseling is a good idea. And I think that one of the things to keep in mind is that if you are courageous and you go down that path, that you really give yourself time because you might be going to counseling for one specific thing that, okay, I wanna find freedom in this area, or I don't wanna feel this way, but it will probably be really hard, but impressive how many other things that you deal with along the way. And a lot of times, I don't know, I just think that to give yourself that time and embrace the process, you know, we talk about a lot about that, that when it comes to healing, it's gonna take time. It's gonna be, you know, putting new practices, even learning how to be in relationship not only with your spouse, but with other people. You know, I mean, all of it works out together, but it takes a long time, really long time. So be willing to do that.

Yeah, I think one of the ways we know we're starting to heal is that ability to tell our whole story. For so many people, the sexual stuff is like off in this different little corner. And then my real life is over here. And it's like we have pages of our story that we've stapled together or that we've ripped out and just. And we try to think we have a complete book, but there's pages missing. And so when, when we're able to connect our sexual trauma to the rest of our story and the rest of our life and not treat it like this weird, different part, it's like, no, that this is all integrated into who I am and what I've gone through and what's made me who I am today, that's really a sign that that integration is a sign of health and stability because now we're aware of our own story and able to tell it before God and others in a way that, like you were saying, Ashley, can help others heal as well. So just being willing to see it as part of your story, I think, is a big step forward.

Yep. Well, I mean, it's obvious from our conversation and the stories that we're telling that healing from sexual trauma is possible, but it takes intentional and hard work and it's not going to be fun. It's not an enjoyable process. But and I think of something I heard Jay Stringer, our friend, say, that you can be done with your trauma, but your trauma is never done with you. So that idea that it's always going to be there until we actually process it, sexual trauma is a terrible thing, but you can heal from it. It is possible. It doesn't have to affect your relationships or keep you weighed down. And it's not something that you chose to happen to you. But in order to heal, you do have to make a decision and intentionally work towards that. Heather, Ashley, thanks for sharing some of your story and for being with us today. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you.

Wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you are a subscriber, please write a review. It helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.