169 - Myth Busters: Time Heals All Wounds

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hey, hey, hey. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 169 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Time is ticking away Tick, tick, ticking away Time is ticking away Tick, tick, ticking away it's ticking.

So I. This is, this may date me a little bit, which I'm fine with because I feel like people think that I'm like 12 years old and I'm not, which when you listen to this episode, you might understand why I'm triggered in that way. But I remember DC Talk did a version of that song.

Well, that was. I'm impressed. I'm truly impressed because that's been high five. That's like, you know, One of those CDs, one of the first CDs I probably had in my teenage years and that was a huge album and it was this kind of random song on there and I was trying to think of a time related intro to our podcast today and that old D.C. talk came to mind. And I'm sure I didn't do it justice at all, which is why I never went into the rap field. But yeah, yeah, great, great poll there, man. Way to go.

The rap field. I love it and thank you. Yeah, I will take that, I will put that as a trophy on my bookshelf. Okay, we've got a great episode for you. A couple of things real quick, few things. Actually, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. We're on all the major platforms and if you can give us a review. We say this every week, but we mean it. If you give us a review, it helps other people see the podcast means a lot to us. Also, follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter and Instagramureduredesirepdmi. And you can also watch some of the clips from the episodes on YouTube. Pure Desire Ministries. Just search that. The third thing is we're really excited and it's been out now for a little bit, but we're still so excited that Sexual Integrity 101, our eight week video course, it's out in the world.

We are excited. And I didn't know what you were going to do in the intro here, so I was just like, oh, we're doing the video course. Yeah. It's exciting to think of the ways that a conversation that people haven't known how to have, whether at home in their small group, starting something at the church is now really available through the video course, that they can watch that together or with a small group or even stream it, you know, on their own at home and just develop the skills and the tools needed to launch into this area. Whether it's for our own healing, for someone we love, or just to help. It's. It's starting that conversation so we can help people move towards healing, because that's what it's all about. That when we don't talk about it, when we don't feel safe addressing it, it just. It keeps staying in a negative space. But when we can bring it into the light and talk about it, God does something. And that's what I think the sexual integrity one on one video course is going to do for people and is doing people for people all over the world.

Yeah, I'm excited because it's something. It puts handles on a topic that for so many of us, has escaped us. We don't understand what sexual integrity means, how to get there. And so that's why we're so excited about this course. And you can go order it now. PureDesire.org 101. You can get digital access or DVDs and also get the workbook. Okay. So we. We had Bob Vandermeer on one of our clinicians. And I mean, I just love having him on the podcast. It's always great to have that clinical perspective. And he's also just a great speaker.

Has a great beard.

Oh, yeah.

You know, people are gonna have to watch the videos of this episode so they can appreciate.

That's right.

I think it's longer than I've ever seen it. So very impressive work, Bob. That's good.

That's how Bob has gained 15 pounds during the quarantine. It's just his beard. Beard. Okay. So we talked about. We did another mythbusters episode here. And the myth is that time heals all wounds.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think this is a fun series because we're just trying to point out some things that have existed maybe in Christianity or in the church or that. I think they all came about for good reason. Like there's an element of truth in them, but actually a whole heap of misdirection or misinformation that can actually keep us trapped in things. And that's really. I think what we zone in on is how something intended to be as a good encouragement, like, oh, time will heal all wounds, how it may actually be preventing us from doing the healing work we need to do. And I really am excited for people to walk through this episode with us.

Yeah. So be prepared for the paradigm here to get shifted a little bit. That's a good one. Hey, Bob, thanks for joining us again.

Yeah, my pleasure. Always. It's always a pleasure. So.

So this is something I've noticed and I don't know if people, you know, cause we don't put up the full episodes anymore. But I've noticed that when you're in the office, you're always wearing a hat. But when you record from your house, we tend to see the bald head. So I just.

He's reaching for a hat.

He scoots back to three of the hats. You have four hats in there.

It's gotta be. The headphones don't fit as well if you've got a hat on.

That's true. Okay, cool. Thanks, man. That's great. Our producer Justin's like coming around just so he can see it.

It's awesome.

Is this. I can. We can do this.

We could be here all day. Okay, so today, guys, we have another Myth Busters episode. And it's a good one. This stemmed from something. Bob. I had heard you say it and I don't think I'd heard anybody else say it. So you can claim it as yours, but we're just going to shift some paradigms today. To use some Rodney Wright language. We're going to shift some paradigms.

I've said it at every conference we do, but I'm not going to let that hurt me. So carry on.

I mean, in all honesty, Bob's beard just draws so much attention that you just listen to him more. So, I mean, it's something I've had to for listeners.

Bob and I teach the same session and it's in the session. So when I teach it, it's in there too.

Got it.

That's why I made the reference. Just. It's hurting my three performance achiever mentality.

And that's why Trevor's feeling embarrassment.

Okay.

So a lot of us have heard the adage that time heals all wounds. And I think a lot of us believe that just, just naturally. It's easy to believe that. Why do we believe in this saying?

I think it's convenient. It's convenient because we don't have to do anything like, okay, yeah, that happened in the past. I think it's also an easy out when it's dealing with somebody else's emotions because we can just shut it down. Like right there. Somebody brings up something. And a lot of times when people bring something up from the past, it kind of blindsides us, you know, like we're sitting there doing the dishes and then somebody brings up, you know, something that we did like two months ago and it's kind of blindsiding. And if we haven't been practicing like emotional presence and the ability to talk about uncomfortable things, then it's way easier to be like, oh come on, that happened two months ago. And that like that thinking goes along with this. Time heals all wounds. Just like leave it alone, drop it, get over it. And, and then I can just go on with, you know, my insignificant surface level life.

Well, and I think many of us may have heard it from someone in a well intentioned way because it's something people will say to try to provide a little hope in the midst of a dark circumstance. It's like the whole, oh, this too shall pass. You know, time will heal all wounds and you'll be better. And, and so in that maybe authentic good desire to help, it actually communicates something that, well, yeah, just move on and forget about it because it's going to get better someday. And there is some truth that things pass. And you know, today's reality doesn't have to be tomorrow's but it can reinforce this stereotype or this way of thinking that doesn't help us move towards health long term.

Yeah, yeah, sorry Nick, I think you bring up a really good point and I think that a lot of parents do this and spouses do it because we are trying to help and like we hope to be helping in that and we don't, we don't recognize what it also communicates. Right. We're trying to help them like hey, just you know, walk it off, dust it off, keep going. And we don't recognize that it's communicating. Negative thoughts and feelings are not welcome.

Right now because we don't want stuff to negatively impact those we care about or ourselves. We don't want those things to be carried, you know, and what's it is that interesting thing like, you know, if my son falls down and hurts himself, I'm like, get back up. And I'm trying to encourage him to be, yeah. Strong and maybe I don't want him to feel pain, but what I'm doing is I'm escaping the emotional pain of my kid being in pain. Like if you just hurry up, get up, take care of it. Are you good? Okay, cool. Now I mentally and emotionally can move on when in reality that's teaching, you know, your pain really doesn't mean much to me. So if you just get over it. That'd be awesome.

Yeah, that would be helpful.

Yeah. I think there's this other piece too that we believe in the time heals all wounds. Because then I don't have to go back to maybe some negative things I've done to other people. That if I know time heals all wounds, like thinking about it externally, then okay, we don't have to reengage. In that conversation we had, that was really hard three weeks ago. And I said some really mean things because time heals all wounds. Like, you know that. So when you do the wounding, it also is a cop out, I think.

In a lot of ways. Yeah, yeah. And keeps us from having to go back and continue the conversation. Right. Like, well, we talked about it once, remember? Like I told you I loved you when we got married, like that kind of thing. I don't have to go back to it again. Right, yeah.

So we've already made our answer abundantly clear. But just to make sure we're being clear about it, does time heal all wounds? Let's give a straight answer to that question.

No, it does not. It does not heal all wounds. The phrase that we use at pure desire. Right. Is that nothing goes away until it's resolved. And so I think that really applies to this, that time does not. Time alone does not heal all wounds.

Right.

That's good.

Yeah. It's one of the things we've talked about that I think people have experiences of this where even if internally they're maybe wrestling with this idea and objecting a little bit, like, I don't know. I think it does. And what we've brought up at a lot of our events is for so many of us, there are encounters we've had from 10, 15, 20 years ago or even longer that if we allow our brain to go there, there are sensations, feelings, smells, things that come right back like it was yesterday. And that's an evidence that just because you got 20 years away from that painful event, if you're still be able to remember the tone of your dad's voice or the look on your mom's face or the words they used to you that had a traumatic wound impact, if they're that fresh, it's clear time isn't healing it. And what we talk about is how wounds are stored in the limbic part of our brain. And the limbic part of our brain is brilliant because it's God's design to keep us alive. But what happens in wounds and trauma is the brain is essentially tricked into thinking, oh, this, this hurt it was painful and pain could be something that, that kills me. And so I've got to stay alive. I've got to remember that wound and pain so it doesn't happen again. And it basically sucks that memory or that event into a part of our brain that doesn't have a clock, it doesn't have a calendar. And it just, it holds it there because our brain thinks it's for our survival, right? So again, it's actually God's brilliant design to keep us alive, but in a way it's being used by sin and in a fallen world against us. And we can actually, you know, through brain science, you could study this from a non faith perspective. Say that's, that's what the brain does. It holds onto trauma to try to protect us. But in its very effort to protect us, it's actually causing continual wounding and pain because we haven't dealt with it.

So let me, let me just clear the air from what happened earlier, okay? The reason why I remember Bob saying it is because I've watched our video course probably 20 times at this point. That's now out, by the way. You should go buy it. PureDesire.org 101 Bob talks about this. And Bob, you give this imagery that if time heals, if time heals all wounds, you're like, no, it doesn't. What happens is if I get this nice gash in my leg, then I'm gonna get some lockjaw and some gangrene over time if I don't actually treat the wound. And so that, that, Nick, is why I remember Bob's, just because of how vivid that was. I don't think I've ever had lockjaw gangrene, but it just.

We're glad to hear that.

Stuck in my head. But it's that idea that things just fester over time if not dealt with.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Nick, the limbic, obviously application of all this, you know, in our clinical assessments, one that we give is the post traumatic stress index in there. There's a few of the areas where it basically highlights or shows where pain from the past is affecting us. And that's in post traumatic stress, where you're responding to something, you're experiencing something now, but you're responding to pain back here. Another one is in traumatic bonding, where you're experiencing new relationships, where you experience a pain or feel a pain that's similar to a pain from the past. And another one is traumatic repetition, where you're in new scenarios where though the scenario is different, the pain Is the same. And so just in this assessment, it's showing, like, multiple places where we see how the fallacy of time heals all wounds is not true because pain's popping up in all these spots, but it's the past pain that we're reliving now.

That's good.

So if time does not heal our wounds, what does happen?

Yeah, I think what we want to look at is how time is an essential element, because healing from wounds isn't a speed sport. We've talked about that. It's not a sprint that you just go, oh, I was wounded. I'm going to let it go. And now I'm all better. That there may be kind of some two steps forward, one step back, kind of feel that I'm working through some wounds and some trauma and some pain. So time can be an element of being patient and letting it go through a process. But what comes to mind for me is something I've heard from Andy Stanley in his messages as he preaches about, you know, wounds from our past. He always says, time can heal processed wounds. It can heal the wounds that we're willing to face and deal with. And so I think that's what heals wounds, is the willingness to. To process what did I experience? What did I go through? What impact did it have on me? What did I take responsibility for that I need to let go of? What am I avoiding responsibility for that I need to take ownership of? And what do I need to grieve? Where do I need to go through a process of recognizing something is true in a painful way that I didn't want to realize? But as I embrace it, I let that pain have its work in me, and I can now process and move beyond that pain.

Yeah.

I think of, you know, like. And okay, granted, I'm gonna say this. As I have gotten older, I know I'm only 32. As the body gets older in my.

Many years in my.

Yeah, okay. Anyways, not that that's not a trigger and a wound for me. And so we'll have to process that at the end of the episode. But one of the things that I. The older I get there are just your body sore. It hurts in different areas. Like, maybe it's your knee or your back or your shoulder or whatever. Nick is smiling, and I don't even know why.

Only just begun Fant.

But one of the things I have noticed is that if I acknowledge it, then I can address it. But if I'm just like, ah, it's annoying. I'm not Gonna think about it and I'm just gonna either like pop an ibuprofen or take another drink or something like that to try to numb or avoid that pain or avoid acknowledging that it even exists. Then nothing's gonna happen. No healing is actually gonna take place until acknowledgement. Like I think it starts with awareness that there's pain. Oh, ow, that hurts. And then acknowledgement, that hurts. Why does that hurt? Let's talk about it.

Yeah. Back to you quoting me, Trevor, with the sliced leg, right? I mean if, if we get sliced, get our leg sliced open with some rusty sheet metal like we are, we're not going to look at and be like, oh, that's fine, we'll just walk it off. That's what you're saying. Like, no, we get, gets infected, we get gangrene, we get all this, all these other complications. What we do is, is we go to the hospital and we get that wound cleaned out, we get it stitched up, we get a shot of penicillin, it gets bandaged and then the doctor says go home and I need you to regularly for the next amount of time, change the dressing, clean out the wound, put some more Neosporin on it.

Right.

And so it's not even just like a one time addressing it. Yeah, it's, it's okay, you're hurt. Like let's really, really intense, intensely look at this and like make sure that there's no debris in there, right? Make sure that we get what we need to do. But that's not even a one time thing. Like there's a, there's a care plan that we leave the hospital with, knowing that I still have responsibility in dealing with this. And it doesn't matter the size of the wound. It can be like a little scratch or it can be like the loss of a digit. Right. But there is some sort of care plan that we have to follow and we have to pay attention to it. Just because it was looking good for X amount of time doesn't mean that it might not get another infection. Right? And so, you know, with these emotional things, like, yeah, let's address them so that we don't, you know, end up being more infected. But even beyond that, we got to pay attention to it. Right? Because there might be like some kind of secondary stuff that happens. It might affect the way that like we're moving the mechanics of our body. Right. If it's a, if it's a literal physical wound, like a slice on my foot is going to change the way I walk, which is going to change the mechanics of my leg and my lower back and I end up with headaches. So it's not just as simple as, like, let's just walk it off. Like, there's so much awareness that has to happen to our whole emotional, spiritual, like, being that. Just, just dealing with this thing. Like, there's so much more potential for health that can come with that.

Yeah, it's like when, like after surgery, doctors and nurses will monitor the patient for a period of time. Like, there is that going back and checking in, making sure and that. I'm just gonna say this. Like, I love when you just see in a clear way how the Lord has set things up to just align and make sense. That you can say this is what happens in the body and it also happens that way in the soul. It's just a beautiful thing. Thing.

I'm.

I'm appreciative of it. So, okay, let's say we realize that maybe we've been holding on or avoiding a wound and hoping it, like, go away or just heal itself, which that would just be amazing. Right? That just did that over time. But what should we do in that instance? Maybe when we realize we've been avoiding something.

Yeah, I mean, most people that are coming to pure desire, it's because there's some sort of sexual brokenness that's entered into that. So I think it doesn't matter if you're an addict or the spouse of an addict or a family member. There's probably been some coping. And that coping exists primarily to push those unwanted feelings, thoughts, or memories out of our conscious awareness. And so for some people, then, like, they'll even start this whole process and be like, well, you know, no, I don't have any wounds where, you know, they're like missing a limb and there's like blood squirting out here.

It's just a flesh, like Monty Python sketch.

I was going to bring up the Black Knight. That's what I was going to say, but I thought that might be outdated. It's just a flesh wound.

Definitely not. Not outdated.

No.

So, like, there's this idea where some people don't even recognize it. And, you know, that's. That's a big part of it. Like, let's deal with the coping that's in your life. Because otherwise you're not even going to feel the pain that's there. You're not even going to be able to acknowledge that it exists. And, you know, from there, like, yeah, let's like, just be honest about it. It's like, well, you know what? I see that there's a wound there. It doesn't hurt that much right now. But guess what? That's why there's pure desire, counselors. Because you can come in and we can poke that and, like, dig our finger into that wound so that you're like, oh, yeah, that actually hurts way more than I thought it did. Yeah.

Yeah. And this might sound kind of counterintuitive at first, but I think one of the things we have to do to heal is decide that we want to heal. We have to decide that we want to get rid of that wound. Because as. As twisted as it can kind of be for a lot of us, those wounds can be a part of our identity that we lean on, that I'm the victim. It's not fair. All these things happen, and it's not my fault, and life just dealt me a bad hand or my, you know, blaming someone else in our life. My dad's the big bad monster in my life. And to let go of that wound, to heal might mean changing a mindset that actually is kind of part of the way we see ourselves. And it's just really humbling and helpful to come to a place, maybe to even say to a friend or group member or counselor, like, I'm realizing I've got a big wound, but I don't really want to let go of it because it's defined me for so long. I don't know who I'd be without it. I don't know if I have the courage to face life without this excuse of, well, I've got a limp because of such and such happened. So that is a healthy place of coming to. If we maybe realize, I don't want to let go of this wound, but I do. Help me, because I do and I don't. And it's kind of like the man that encounters Jesus who says, I do believe. Help me overcome my unbelief.

Right.

We may need to say that about our wounds. Like, I do want to get better, but I also realize there's a part of me that's scared of this and doesn't want to. And that actually, I think, can move us towards healing just to admit we're maybe stuck in something.

Yeah, I would. I would use an example from my life, but I don't run. So I'm going to use an example you have shared with me, Nick. So you run. Yeah. To quote you, this is a great episode for me, guys. I feel like I'm really doing a great job. But, Nick, You've mentioned that you've had some pain in your knee or. And just different. And that's again, like, as you are active and you're running and you're doing healthy things, there may be times where you do have wounds or things that hurt. And what's interesting is like, and even someone who may be working out, like, you get injured and then you can't do that working out. And what's interesting is like, maybe that's the first thing and then you realize that some other things are going to have to change. Well, I do run every day and that's why I can eat unhealthy the way that I do, and I eat unhealthy the way I do because I don't actually get enough sleep because I don't do any prep. And then you start to see these areas of unhealth that are actually covered by this thing that looks healthy on the outside. And so it's just like, well, crap. Like I have to go back. I have to go back all this way and start to address things that are over. That's just a lot of hard work. So to your point, you have to acknowledge it. Yes. But then you actually have to be willing to put in the work to actually make those changes. Because it isn't that your foot hurts and that's the problem, or your knee hurts or whatever it may be. It's actually that this is a form of escaping these different areas of your life that you struggle with. And that sucks. But it's true.

Yeah, yeah. I think about scripture that. Here comes Pastor Bob. I think about scripture, you know, that says, like, we have a sincere faith. And the Greek word that's used there is elikrinos, which means son judged, but sincere also from the Latin, means without wax. And there's this idea that we would be like a piece of pottery, that there's a crack in it and it's not just filled in with wax.

Right.

And the sun judged idea would be that you would take this vessel out and hold it up to the sun and see if there's a crack in it and see if someone just filled it in with wax to cover up that rug or that brokenness there. And I think there's this idea in our health that we wouldn't take this past brokenness and just cover it over. Right. That we wouldn't just try and hide it with the beauty of everything else and obscure it or camouflage it or whatever. Mr. Trevor, what you were talking about, I just had that very conversation with someone where we were talking about, yeah, you're pursuing health and all these other ways, but as a way to avoid pursuing health in this very obvious crack, like brokenness in your past and just glossing it over and saying, time will take care of it. I mean, Paul is saying, I wish that we all had this sincere faith that we weren't trying to hide any of the brokenness.

I like Pastor Bob. You can show up anytime, man.

Welcome.

So, Bob, what can we do to start processing our wounds and facing those things that we've been talking about?

Yeah, I think we kind of laid it out with that last question. Right. But here are some steps. One, take an honest inventory of what you're doing to cope. Like, is there coping there? And if you're listening to this podcast, you've already probably begun that inventory to get into a group so you can start processing that, or get into counseling and a group so you can start processing that and having people help you to just understand what's there. You know, sometimes say, well, no, that's just what families are like. But when someone else tells you and reflects back to you and says, like, oh, no, that's actually maybe typical for families, but not healthy for families, then maybe for the first time, you're given permission to say, yeah, actually, you know what? That wasn't ideal for me. And so I think some steps, like address the coping, get into counseling, get into a group, start becoming familiar with what addiction is. Yeah, right. I mean, that's another word for coping.

Yeah.

So that you can start to get that stuff out of the way. Because you said something earlier, Trevor, you just pop ibuprofen, but until we stop that, we can't really even access what's there.

Yeah. To your point about the sincere and having maybe like a crack in the clay or in the pottery that you actually. We know this, that we can't actually see all those areas in our life without other people. And so it may be that, you know, and I've. I've had these instances and, you know, you gotta balance it out as a friend and in community with people you don't want to call people every time you see something like that. But there are times and moments in relationship where you can say, man, it really feels like that's not real. Like, that doesn't sound like you. That's not actually what I see in your life. So can we talk about that? And if you are invited into that space or you invite people into that space on your own, that's where you start to see where you are filling it in with wax and actually just not addressing the brokenness that's in your life.

Yeah. I think of what we've learned through the brain science that we can apply to this and how our trauma and wounds are primarily a right brain kind of memory, experiential, emotional sights, smell, sounds kind of thing. And for so many of us, we've never verbalized it or brought it into our left brain to start to able to process it and make sense of it. And so that's a huge encouragement I have for people is. And we do this so well in Christian circles where we kind of will talk about a trauma or a wound, but we tiptoe around. It's like, well, yeah, I had kind of a negative relationship with an uncle when I was a kid. And we feel like, oh man, I got it out there. It's like that's not really processing the what, the when, the where, the how, the who, the what. Like, you need. And that doesn't mean you need to face this. Was everyone everywhere but somewhere you need safe community or a safe counseling office where you can sit down and say, I was 7 years old and we were on a family camping trip and this is what was said and done and perpetrate. And it's messy and it's ugly and it's maybe going to be emotional and weird to talk about. And oh, my goodness, I didn't even thought of that in 20 years. But in doing that, it's not just rehearsing the pain. It's like not just trying to be some masochistic person that's going through the pain again, but it's actually connecting our right and left brain so that we can begin to make sense of what we sense. Thinking of what Kurt Thompson shared with us a couple weeks ago, like, our brains need help to make sense of what we've sensed. And we can't really do that until we start to put it into words and verbalize it. And really that will need to be in the presence with other people. So my encouragement to someone is if you realize you've had painful stuff in your past and you've maybe said the big picture of it, but you've never told someone the whole story that's going to be crucial to your healing to face that full reality and verbalize what happened.

Yeah, yeah.

I think of it's almost like a painting of a painting and it's like, sure, it looks like it and, you know, it kind of resembles it, but it's not. It's not the Same thing. It's a forgery, if you will.

Yeah. So time doesn't heal all wounds, but sometimes time is necessary in the healing process. So how do we balance that truth?

This, for me, is where other people are so important. Because it's very easy to lose perspective in the midst of that healing process. Because, again, based on the wound, it could take a long time. Like, healing from sexual trauma or sexual abuse can be years and years and maybe decades of hard work and conversations and counseling and community. And that's not necessarily. Like, I'm not just putting a timestamp on it, but things can take a long time. Where I've learned that there are wounds in my life that I had dealt with, but then now that I'm a parent, all of a sudden my son's poking it from the other direction, and I'm like, what the heck? I thought I dealt with this. You're kidding me right now. And then I lash out. Right, Right. And I blow up. Right. But that's why I think it's so important to have other people there who are also on the recovery journey in the healing process, because they can say, oh, man, me too. I totally get that. And you know what? A couple years ago, I had the same experience, and this is what I did. And you need to just give it time. You need to continue to do the work, but then also give it that time. And I think that that's. Again, I say this a lot in my life, that God's gift to us is relationship and other people, because they see things and have experienced things similar, yet different than we do, and they're able to really. For me, the picture fills out more. You start to see more of the picture and more of reality with other people around.

Yeah. And I think as we look at the time factor, it's the truth that different wounds take a different kind of timeframe. And so if I twist an ankle on a baske game, I might be back at it in a couple of weeks. If I've been in an accident, have multiple compound fractures in my leg, that's going to be a much longer process. And when we talk about emotional or relational wounding, it's not always obvious up front how deep it goes, how much is going to be involved. And so it's that need to be patient with myself and sometimes say, this is going to take time. But as I stay active about my recovery, because if I twist my ankle. But maybe there's something that needs to be reset or worked on there, and I never address it. I Could be working through that bum ankle for years, because I'm just waiting. Time, again is not really what heals it. It's the proactive nature of facing it. And so that's, to me, the balancing point of based on what we get into and find needs to be healed. It might take a long time, but it will take as much time. We have an influence over, is what I'm trying to say, by how active or proactive we are about doing the work, facing the hard stuff, and allowing our souls to go through that healing process.

Yeah, I mean, I've broken a handful of bones in my life. And like, every time you get a cast, the doctor says, all right, we're going to have this cast on for X amount of time, and then you're going to come back and we're going to take the cast off, we're going to take another X ray, we're going to see how it is. And if we need to, maybe we'll put another cast on or maybe just a brace or maybe you can just go back to life as usual. Right. But there is always this, like, an understanding that time is part of it. Once the wound is addressed, like.

Right.

Once we go in, like, once there's some treatment, once it's given the attention and care that it needs, then the doctor says, now give it some time.

Right.

But it's. But there's. There's an order to it. It has to be after it's treated and given the appropriate consideration and weight that it really needs. One of the things that I've noticed in my own life, personally in my recovery is, you know, early on, like, addressing the pain and the wounds that were there. One of them that I would regularly bring up was my stepdad. That in that relationship, I felt like a failure often, and I felt not good enough. And, you know, multiple examples of that, you know, that I would give even in our Peer desire conferences. And one of the things that now, as a father that I've been thinking about is how much time and effort and love he did show me and, you know, the things that he would do, like build a batting cage. Right. I mean, to build it like he built my brother and I a batting cage in the backyard. So now as a dad, I think about. That meant that he financially planned for that.

Yes.

That meant that he planned his time for the weekend. No weekends, plural. Right. And that he physically went outside and did the work to make that happen. Like, so there was a lot of intention that was there. And so, like, as time has Gone on, and I've processed through the pain. One of the important things that time has done is also given me the ability to have the space and perspective to say, wow, you know what? He also did a lot of really amazing things to show me love, but I had to get past that pain first, and I had to get past the wound first. And so the time has given me now the ability to celebrate that relationship in a way that I would not have been able to if we hadn't addressed the wound and then given time.

Yep. Another thing that I'm thinking about is my father in law just had shoulder surgery, and we talk about wounds like, your foot hurts, you're gonna walk different, and then your hip starts to hurt, and then back and then headache. Right. That connection, if a wound has been there for a long time, you might be doing things because of that that you wouldn't have otherwise. And so I think that when we start to heal those wounds, we also have to understand that, yeah, there'll be some physical therapy or some. Some retraining, if you will, but it might look completely different. The way he moves his shoulder now is different than he did. He has to, like, retrain it to move in a different way or to use it in a different way because he's so used to it. And, I mean, I remember when I would, you know, hurt an ankle or a knee, and you'd walk funny, and then it would get better, but then you're like, left knee hurts. You're like, what the heck? I don't understand. Like, this is dumb. So you have to put in that time, but then also be aware that you may have to do things differently moving forward. It doesn't go back to how it was because you were living in some. Maybe some unhealth because of it, but it's understanding and I think really taking the courageous step of, okay, I got to do things different now if I want health to continue. Okay, we've talked about this a little bit already, and we tend to talk about it a lot in all of our episodes. But when it comes to healing wounds and this idea of time, how are other people and think practically, how are other people involved in that process?

Yeah.

You know, one of the things we say is you were wounded in relationship. You have to be healed in relationship. We talk about our commitments to change, and typically those commitments to change, like, right, they're connected to a double bind, and that double bind is usually connected to relationship. And so when we're hurt, you know, when we're wounded, Nick you talked about how our limbic system records that. And like, hey, there's pain, so now there's fear, so let's avoid that to survive. And we need to reprogram our interaction with relationship to say, you know what? Just because there's fear doesn't mean that I shouldn't take risk in relationship. And so, you know, being in a group is a great place to practice that. And I say practice because groups, a lot of times we still hurt each other within seven pillars. Group or betrayal and beyond group. You know, maybe a spouse is in a betrayal and beyond group, and they share something and somebody else in the group tells them that they're wrong for feeling that or that they should feel more than that, right? And so they're wounded in that context. But if they're willing to go back and risk some more and share how that felt and share that experience, and then usually what happens is like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. I didn't know that me responding that way out of my own fear and brokenness affected you. And so we have this opportunity to risk. And as we have that risk, you know, what we talk about is we experience change.

I also think about the way other people might call out our limp or our wounds. You know, if someone says, are you limping? Something looks funny about your walk. And physically, we were usually okay with that. Like, oh, yeah, I had this issue. But when it's emotionally, relationally, we typically don't react real well. But I think that's a role God has given other people in our lives. Say, do you realize you're limping relationally? Like, anytime someone asks you a question group, you shut down what's going on there. And. Or, man, anytime we get to this topic, you get angry and kind of your face changes and like, they're going to see things in us we might not see in ourselves. And so I think it's just important to recognize the value of that role, that if we're in a safe group. And again, there may be toxic people in our life that are shaming us with this kind of thing. So I don't mean them. I mean, though, in a healthy group and in relationships with people who love you, when they point out a limp, if we can have the humility to respond and go, oh, I'm not sure I've seen that, can you tell me a little bit more and maybe help me process where it's coming from? That's a tremendous value because we've all got blind spots. We've all Got what's just become our normal. And we're used to that. In fact, we just went through that pillar in my men's group. Like, that talks about our gate is so normal to us, we don't even notice it anymore. But when others do, we can either choose to get angry and defensive or be receptive to what they're trying to help us see, because that is really a gift that God gives us through other people.

Yeah, I think, too, there's that lens that me processing my wounds can actually help other people process theirs. I remember I've heard people talk about certain experiences or relationships that they had with their parents. That for me, I'm like, oh, yeah, I had something very similar, and I hadn't thought about that in years. Or I tried to avoid that. And then I realized, oh, you know what? There's a wound. And that's actually been motivating a lot of behaviors that I've been trying to stop. And I didn't know that until that person identified that wound. So I think there's also that. I mean, there's going to be a tension that I need to just share all my wounds all the time. I would say, well, maybe not, but in relationship and in those intimate, close times of relationship, I think it's okay to do that. Knowing that that also can encourage someone to two things. One, start to explore what wounds they may have, but then also help them identify the ones that are similar that they maybe carry.

Yeah. We were working with a couple, and the spouse had said to the husband, hey, like, when your friends are around, you walk differently. Like, you walk, you know, kind of, like, cocky. You walk differently when your friends are around. And he said, no, I don't. Like, no, I don't walk differently. What are you talking about? And they had this argument about it. And I think that's like, a great example of what you're saying, Nick, of like, hey, we can see this in other people. And so instead of responding with, like, no, I don't. To be able to, like, have, I guess, the presence to say, wow, you know what? I didn't know that. And, like, I'm not even aware of that. I wonder why that might be me. As opposed to immediately going to, like, the defense, right? Where we're saying, no, you're just like, you're out of your mind. I gotta do that. Yeah. But, yeah, and his ability then to come back to her and say, hey, you know what? I had noticed it. Like, I'm going to think about why maybe I do that. That actually opened up this whole other level of conversation in their relationship.

Yeah, I think that's such a great way to think of it, Bob, that it's having a healthy curiosity about our lives and our own reactions, versus, for a lot of us, we see it as a criticism or something that's negative. And so we can't be curious because it feels like a flaw has been exposed and we have to protect it or hide it. And I think that's part of health, is developing just that curiosity of, yeah, boy, why does that make me angry? Let's talk about that. I wonder. There's something there, and maybe there's an opportunity here for more growth, and isn't that a good thing? So. And that may be an answer to this final question here, but what are some markers that we could give people that might indicate when they're pursuing or moving towards health from wounds? Like, how could they know if they're making progress in healing wounds? If it's not just waiting for the calendar to say, okay, it's been a long time, you're better. If it's about us doing the work, what kind of markers could we look for in that journey?

Yeah, a couple things that I think about are my willingness to talk about it, because for me, that means there's been some level of engagement with that wound where if I don't want to talk about it, it still is really impacting me. So that's that level of inviting other people in that's like that proactive. I want this to stop hurting. I want this to no longer be this big wound. But then two, you know, for me, I think it's about response, like when I'm. When I'm triggered, because I don't believe necessarily that all my triggers are going to go away or the things like those wounds, there may still be a scar there, that there's still some resemblance of a wound or something that happened. But how I respond when that gets poked, to me has been a really good indicator that there's been some healing, that I don't just, like, freak out and then avoid it and then go numb out doing something else. That when it gets poked, I'm like, ow, that hurt. And then I actually sit. And this doesn't happen every time, but those moments where it's like I'm sitting in the pain for a second, I explore it, I investigate it. Maybe I have a quick conversation with my wife or with the friend that's with me. That, to me, is more of an indicator that there's been Some work done. There's been some healing done. Because before I would have never done those things.

Yeah. I think it depends on the wound, too. Right. I mean, there's. There's some wounds where. Back to this kind of physical analogy, like, there's some wounds where, all right, we get a scratch, we bleed, and there's not even a scar.

Great.

But there's other things where, like, if we break a bone and things don't heal properly, you're going to have side effects of that for the rest of your life. And just to be able to. All right, I'm going to process. I'm going to have to process some level of pain. I mean, the death of a loved one, you don't ever heal from that, you know, like, no. You like severe abuse or trauma. Like, it's not like you forget it and it's not a part of you. Like, there's some level of pain that you may need to live with. And that's part of finding healthy tools to cope with that, that healthy context to be able to continue to process through it. And there's other things where, like, okay, you know, again, like, I've broken. I've broken my right arm once, my left arm twice, my foot a couple times. Dislocated shoulders, hyperextended knees. And so because of this, I kind of have an awareness of what activities seem like a good idea for Bob. Right. And I don't just stay in a bubble in my house because of fear. I just have a concept of these seem like maybe good ideas and these seem like maybe bad ideas.

Yeah. A cage fight with a friend on a Thursday night after a couple drinks is probably a great idea.

Right. Oh, not a great idea. Sorry.

You've accepted some limitations, some healthy limitations that we all have.

Yeah. And to say that there's a healthy response to that fear and it doesn't have to be paralyzing totally, and it doesn't have to be overwhelming. But we can learn to navigate life after we've addressed the wound and given it time so we can process it.

Yeah. I think it's when we see our level of reactiveness starting to change, you know, that we don't have the same triggered response that maybe we would have. And my wife and I'll have those moments like, hey, you know, we worked through that argument in an hour in what used to take us three days. Like, there's some growth of wounds in our past that we can really celebrate. And, you know, maybe it's for you. You're driving in traffic and you get cut off and you don't explode in anger or road rage, or you have a phone call with your parents where you don't have to go to the garage afterwards and pound on a punching bag for an hour. Or you know what, maybe you look at your life and just realize there are some typical pain responses I have. And as I'm getting healthier, my reactiveness comes down and I'm calmer and, and I'm not needing to cope in those old ways, whether they were good or bad coping. It just either was coping. If, if we're seeing, I didn't, there's. I didn't need to cope because there's not as much pain that can help us see some, some directional movement. And I agree with you, Bob, it's. There are some things I don't think going to ever get over, so to speak. I think there can be healing, but just like in the surgery analogies we've used so much in this podcast, people have scars and scar tissue and things that will impact the way they walk or live the rest of their lives. And that can be true in relationships and in healing as well. Like, we might have scars and scar tissue, but the pain and the woundedness can be healed to the point that now we are moving forward in health, even with the scarlet as opposed to an unaddressed wound. So I, I think looking at just your levels of reactiveness can be a good indicator of progress.

Yeah. Rebecca has a broken toe right now and she is hyper aware of everything that is even possibly going to come near her foot. Right. Because right now she's in a lot of pain and her toe is broken. We wouldn't expect her to act that way 10 years from now. Right. But right now it's 100% appropriate, like for her to be hyper aware of that and hyper vigilant in protecting that wound. And so, like, if right now you've got a wound that is so severe that you're doing everything you can to just not have somebody hurt you again, that is totally appropriate for where you're at right now. Absolutely. Address it.

Right.

Care for it so that 10 years from now you're not still living like that.

Yep.

That's good. It's a good word.

So time, obviously, guys, does not heal all wounds. Right. Like, and what we talked about, we need other people, we need to address it, we need to treat it, we need to monitor it, and we need to invite other people in so that we can see them for what they are. And again, I mean, every time we talk about wounds or trauma or anything like it just. They just don't go away. They don't go away. We have to deal with them. And that's how we heal. Heal is we heal it. We do the work. We know that it's going to heal. So, Bob, we just appreciate you, man. Thanks for hanging out with us. Thanks for being here.

Yep. Love spending time with you guys.

Wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. You haven't subscribed to the podcast? Do it. If you already subscribed, write a review. It helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being helpful.

Sam.