170 - Stories Of Healing: Rich Moore

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 170 of the Pure Desire podcast Here. Joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumba.

Looky, looky. I got Hooky.

I like, for me, I feel like that's like an old saying that I probably have no idea where it came from.

Well, it's. It's from the Captain Hook, Peter Pan.

I just.

I think it's just from the one that Robin Williams was in where he's the old Peter Pan.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I remember that.

You know, gets sucked back in and has to battle everyone all over again. And I think Hook is the name of that movie.

It is. That is.

It's probably the best Peter Pan film, I think. I mean, the original cartoon is. Have you ever. Have you watched the original cartoon movie version lately? It's a little odd. Like there's some strange parts in it involving the Native Americans and Wendy. And just like you forget how odd things from the 50s and 60s can be.

The mermaids don't have any clothes on, they just have hair. Yeah, it's weird. We just watched it recently with our 3 year old, so I.

And then were you wondering, should I be watching this movie?

Okay, we're not circling back to this one. And in fairness and to my defense, I actually thought of Hook was the first thing of, but I just wanted to give space to maybe being wrong, but I wasn't. So someone email me and tell me that that was dumb, because I feel like that was dumb. Okay, so we have another Stories of Healing episode, but before we get into that, a few things. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. We're on all the major platforms and if you can give us a review, it helps other people see the podcast. And recently I've gone through and looked at some of them and there are some really powerful stories of just the kind of culture that we create here with the conversations and the topics that we get into. And I'm just seeing how meaningful that can be, these different perspectives and angles. And so it helps people when they see these, that they could check out the podcast and know it'd be meaningful for them. Also, follow us on Facebook, Twitter and instagramuredesirepdmi. And if you like to consume video content, we have clips of these episodes up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. The last thing many of us who struggle with sexual brokenness or have experienced betrayal, it's really hard to know where to start. I know that that's my story. I didn't really know where to actually begin, what healing actually was. And for that reason, we created the Sexual Integrity 101 video course.

Yeah, we know that no matter who you are, it can be a very, very awkward conversation. Like, how do I bring this up? What do we say? And that. I think that's true. Whether you are a parent or in a small group of some kind or a church leader. It's like, we feel the need that we need to address this topic, but it's like, what do I say and where do I start? And especially if it hasn't been modeled for us, we just don't know. And so we feel like The Sexual Integrity 101 video course is a way to start the conversation. And even if that just means you, as the parent or group leader or church leader, are going to go through it and watch it by yourself to understand how all of this fits together and how it connects to how God made us and what happens with sin and fallenness in our life and in our brain. I mean, there's just. There's so much to learn here. And as we learn and are equipped, having the conversation just becomes a logical outflow of what we're learning and what we're growing in. And so we want to encourage communities, families, churches to use this to help start that conversation and then trust that God will lead to what it looks like to take next steps after that.

Yep.

And it's available in digital access and DVD, and you can order your copy@puredesire.org 101. Okay, so it's been a little bit since we've done a Stories of Healing episode again. And we had Rich Moore, our international men's groups coordinator, on the podcast, and he's a regular on our podcast, but we've never actually sat down and just had him share his story.

Yeah, and just like Peter Pan, this is a little bit of an older story that goes back into some of Rich's childhood and things that had, you know, lifelong consequences for him in terms of his realities. And I think for those who maybe just know Rich as our group group's coordinator or they've seen him on other episodes, it's like, wow. To realize this is his backstory, and yet this is where God has him now, I think, is a big part of the testimony and just the. The message of what God can do to redeem and restore a life. Even that's been filled with a lot of brokenness along the way. So I hope that for everyone, whatever their story is, they take that same message of hope that they can say whatever my reality is now doesn't hinder or limit what God can do in the future.

Yep.

And Rich still admits in the episode that he's still growing today. And so it's a powerful story. You'll enjoy this episode. Rich, thanks for being back with us, man. Appreciate it.

Glad to be here.

So this is episode 170. We've been doing this for a while. I lost count on how many episodes you've been on. My guess is it's probably in the 20 range, maybe. So we've had you on the podcast quite a bit. Not that you're one of the favorites or anything. We don't play that game here.

But I'm close in proximity.

You really are. That's a short walk. That is true. And you bring the octave of our podcast down to a nice bass level. But through those podcasts, we've heard bits and pieces of your story, but we've never actually just flat out told your story. And one of the things that I think is super beneficial is that you have a very unique story. And almost like, I mean, a story that really goes back to the beginning of Pure Desire ropes a lot, you know, Dr. Ted and Diane into it. So I just thought, you know, I think actually we had a listener send in. I would love to hear Rich's story. And great idea, listener. Thank you for that. And so that's what we want to do today. So. But one of the things you and I talked about, Rich, before we even get going today was earlier you walked into my office and were talking to me about the podcast. Share a little bit about that before we get into the questions.

Yeah, it was just, you know, thinking about it. I didn't sleep well last night. I've never had that problem going into a podcast. It's very much real. Even though my story started years ago when I was little, so it's very much raw. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some tears, maybe kind of well up a little bit, who knows? But, yeah, it was. And just looking at some of the questions and going through that, I was like, wow, okay. Yeah. It's just. I just knew this was going to be a difficult one. And then. But with that being difficult, I think what it shows is that one just how far I've come. And I'm so connected to, obviously, my story, but being connected to it but it's, it's just as powerful today as it was when I first gave it, you know, and probably more so now is because I'm have so much more knowledge about addiction and just the whole process.

Yeah.

You know, and so. Yeah.

Cool.

Nick, you got the first question.

Oh, we've got names assigned to us. Okay.

So little tip for our listeners.

You started throwing in other questions and I'm just listening to Rich and I'm, you know, these testimony ones. I always feel like I'm just kind of here for the ride.

Totally.

And I was just ready to listen so I can help get us in. Rich, glad you're here. So walk through a little bit of the early parts of your story. When did you realize that sexual brokenness was an issue and that you needed to seek help?

So it's kind of a twofold question. So my answers may be a little long winded, but to go way, way back. So being abused at four, obviously then I wasn't sure. I didn't know it was a problem, you know, had no idea.

Yeah.

You know, so sexually abused at 4, probably 6 years old, really start masturbating and kind of figuring out what it was at 6. But knew there was this. I already felt this shame behind it, like us, the secret. So I knew there was an issue early on and then it just progressed. I would say I was probably a full blown sex addict probably by 12. And then that grew into me abusing my niece. So once that happened, how old were.

You at that point?

I was 14.

Okay.

So once that happened, then I knew I was like, I need help. But then I was like, well, I just did this. I can't tell anybody. So really from 14 to 21, I was pretty much out of control. I mean, if full blown was the top, I was even above that. You know, I was hanging out and topless bars at 16, 17, 18, partying up, you know, being a big guy and all my buddies are big guys. We never got carded and we never got asked. We just sat in the corner and did our thing. And so I knew early on I was spiral, spiraling down. And knew there was some brokenness, but I was just not ready to approach it, I guess. Yeah, you know, there was a lot of fear behind that.

Yeah. It's so interesting the way you just said that, because I think for most people listening that have dealt with sexual brokenness of their own, there's some level of that, that the behavior itself becomes the double bind because it takes you to places you never thought you'd go, you cross lines you never thought you'd cross. And you know you need help, and you know you want help, but the very nature of what you've just done becomes the thing that prevents you from seeking help. Because in order to get help, you'd have to admit to what you've done. So it becomes that vicious double bind of I need help, but I don't know that I want to face the consequences or embarrassment or shame or anger over what I've done. And so I'll just try to figure this out by myself. And yet in trying to figure it out by ourselves, we just end up in deeper and darker places as you've described.

Yeah, so I mean, I mean, so you got from 14 to 21, you said like, what at 21 was like, okay, now I need help. This is like, what was that catalyst moment for you?

Couple things. So, 21, 22. Somewhere in there, I can't remember exactly what was. I remember the year it was actually was in August of 90, 96 during a softball game. My brother asked me a question and I knew the question was coming and I said, yep. And then I basically told him everything that happened. And he goes, okay, that's. That's what he was told.

And your brother is a.

And my brother is a police officer. Yeah. Former NFL player. Big guy who could just destroy me. But he showed a lot of grace. And so kind of what kick started the healing was some legal issues. And I may have shared that before. I was just thinking about this again last night, which is pretty humbling or just a blessing that I'm even here. I got sentenced in April 7, 1997. 10 years of probation. I was facing 49 years in prison. Measure 11 just passed. I was one of the first ones charged under measure 11, guidelines for sex crime in Oregon. I'd have 26 years left today. Today.

That's crazy.

Just a little bit of time.

Yeah.

So, you know, the thing that really forced me to get into that healing was, and I am so thankful for, you know, a lot of people, man, you know, that's horrible. But for me, I think in two pieces, the number one thing is my brother really stepped in to save my life by confronting me. We have a great relationship now with my brother, my sister in law and family and stuff like that, so. But it was a lot of hard work. Probably the hardest stuff I'd done in my life by far.

Well, and again, while your story may be in some ways a level or a stage beyond what others have experienced, but not for others. I think for some people it's like, wow, they're actually talking about someone that had legal issues just like me. For others of us that didn't have legal issues in a similar way, it often is something forced upon us in terms of getting caught, getting discovered. And there is that real mix of, boy, it's horrible and hard and the consequences, but at the same time, a moment of finally being able to deal with it because I can't hide anymore. And just seeing the way that God use that in your own life, I think is an encouragement to others.

So, I mean, you, you know, and you mentioned that, you know, there's brokenness there, obviously, the stuff with your niece, like you, you know, hanging out at strip clubs. Like, you don't just like, go, this is the right thing to do with my life. So, like, there had to have been attempts for you that you had made to try to stop. What did those look like?

To be honest with you, I never did. I never tried to stop.

Even though you knew it was wrong.

I was so out of control. Every dime I made, I spent on girls and drinking and just partying. I would work and I'd blow my whole check. I didn't care. I was. I was just. The sexual part was. The sexual addiction part was only part of it. I was in such a low state of just self esteem, you know, just in general. Wanted to kill myself. Actually wrote a letter and was gonna go do it. And I found this place. I was gonna drive my car off the cliff and.

And going out in dramatic fashion.

Oh yeah.

Off a cliff. Wow.

I literally backed at a 72 Nova that ran great. Never died on me. And I backed it up. And there's this part off this cliff and I won't say where. It's here, in. In close. Close to the office here. And. And I just remember sitting there waiting for traffic to go and it was clear and I gunned it and the car died.

Oh my gosh.

And I was so frustrated.

Yeah.

That I was like, I can't do anything right. I can't even kill myself.

Oh my gosh.

So then I just. I don't know where I went after that. But I mean, that was literally. I had it kind of planned out and you know, and it was like.

That was not kind of planned out. You were there.

Yeah.

You had it.

Yeah, well. And it's evident that someone was watching out for you, that God was involved even in those early stages of your healing. And, you know, just because you get caught and exposed and there's these legal issues that doesn't mean you become healthy. I mean for, for everybody, that, that exposure doesn't immediately create health and freedom. That's typically a long journey. And so for you, Rich, what were some of the big hurdles on your journey to healing and freedom?

The biggest one was just really at the beginning was the legal part of it. You know, I was on probation for 10 years, so I didn't have a lot of wiggle room. So that journey for me, and even part of that still today, I still kind of walk through life with the sense of if I do something, I could go to jail. Even though you can go do this or I can watch something I shouldn't watch, you know, technically, yeah, but I, because I lived on pro with all these stipulations being on probation, I. Part of that is still ingrained in me of not a coping but a guardrail. Yeah, well, you know, when you look at your three circles or whatever, this is something that is a non negotiable where if I do this, this could happen even though I'm free to do what I want now and with. Without breaking the law.

Sure.

But there's consequences when you're on probation, you know, it's like you can't drink, you can't go to the strip club, you can't do this or that. So that was easy for me. Not that it was easy being on probation, but I had no choice. It was like, do this or you could still go to prison.

Yeah.

And by the grace of God, I mean, I think I spent six hours in jail just in booking and then I was shocked when they let me walk.

So I've heard you tell a little bit of that story, like the judge in the courtroom, like take us kind of through that a little bit.

Yeah, we went through. And I remember talking to my attorney and she said, well, you know, it's. They usually do not deviate from the guidelines. And she showed me the guidelines and this is where you're at. And she goes, maybe they give you 20 some years. She goes, more than likely measure 11. They're kind of gonna make a example out of you. So we went in and I shared a little bit, very little, because I couldn't because I was a mess, you know, and I just knew. And some others got up and shared and. And when he said, well, I don't see sending him to prison is going to do any good. I just about. I literally was speechless. I don't think I could really say much. I was just, I was Shocked. And it was pretty incredible. And I owe a lot of that. Just that whole, the legal process. I know I hurt my brother, my sister in law, my family and that. So I know that I owe a lot to my brother. He really stuck his neck out for me in a lot of ways. We do a business together and we play golf together and we talk all the time. And that's a relationship I never thought I'd ever have again.

Yeah, it's amazing. So I mean, you know, you don't get sentenced to almost 50 years in prison, 10 years probation even. So again, that doesn't mean change actually happens or that there's even hope that change can happen. So when for you did that light switch go on? Did it like click and make sense? Okay, healing is possible. What was that like? What was that moment for you?

Well, I remember. So this is 20. So I've been in pure desire for 23, 25, I don't know, since it started.

Yeah, we said 400 years.

So I just remember Ted, I remember watching Ted from the pulpit because you.

Grew up at East Hill and grew.

Up at East Hill and just watching him talk about sexual addiction and drinking and all this stuff and knowing I had this in my own life. And then when it all came out, Ted basically grabbed a hold of me and he said, we got this. And Ted is really, I mean, my brother. And Ted, you know, outside of family, Ted is the first man I ever trusted in my life. He's never given up on me. He still hasn't given up on me. He still pushes me. And you know, he. Along with, I mean him and just pure desire and Diane too. Just kind of walking through some of those early days and helping and guide me and you know, really saved my life. I would have been in a ditch somewhere, dad down the cliff. Who knows? I was just headed that way.

Was like, was there something, was there something that he said or like. Because I know for me in my story, there were a couple things that I heard where some things lined up and I'm like, ah, okay, this is possible. This can happen. Was it like at one interaction with him, was there ever that moment where it just was like, okay, we got this.

There was a lot of, a lot of those. Yeah, I was not if, you know.

Ted, you know, there's a lot I.

And I can't pinpoint just one. It was just a combination of so many of them. I just remember him telling me that, you know, that he was proud of me and that he wasn't going to give up on me. And, you know, that's. It's pretty special when you have somebody that's willing to do whatever they can to help you succeed. You know, in my. And early on, I think I told Ted, I said my whole goal was through this process. I just wanted to help one guy not do what I did and help save one kid from not getting abused. You know, if I could just reach one person, then, you know, and here we are 400 years later, and then over a thousand guys and share my story world around the world with men and. And women and just churches and. And it's. It's pretty remarkable. Just. Just one thing. I don't know if there's just one thing. There's just so many. Yeah. I think most recently I've done some brain spotting with him. I would say after so many years of doing. I think. I don't say closure, but in that process, man, it. Something clicked and I'm like, you know, and here I've been in the process forever, and then finally through brain spotting, I'm like, oh, I totally get it. And it was just another piece of that I had never dealt with.

Yeah, well. And I think that speaks to what so many of us find out, that this process is, you know, we've talked about the illustration layers of the onion. It's an ongoing process and not what we sometimes get presented in the world, and maybe particularly in the church world, that it's this, well, you got to get to this place, and then you're free and you're pure and you're healed and you go about your life, you know, just all happy and blissful and it. It'd be wonderful if that's how it worked. But the truth is, as human being beings, we're always discovering another layer of, you know, where does my codependency come from? Or where does that negative self image come from? Or where do I still live in fear towards, you know, an authority figure, or where am I guarded because I don't trust people? And. And we can be unpacking that. And I know for me, I can sometimes feel like, oh, it's in my story. It's been 10 years. It's like, well, I should have gotten this figured out by now, you know, and we'll hear that from people. Like, I should be further by now. Why? Why does this still bother me? Why? And I think it just reveals that the behaviors and the things we get stuck in are just one small piece of a much, much bigger, much, much more complex story of who we are as human beings. And that's why I love what we do. And I love your story, Rich, because it's a testament to say we are human beings in process and if we're Christians of being formed into the image and likeness of Christ. And that's a process that is ongoing until the, you know, the day of our death and when we can step into eternity and be perfected. And. But until then, like, we are all in process. And the question I see for people more is, are we aware of and open to that process, that we're going to continue to be changed and grow and learn, or do we get to a place where we're complacent just like, well, I am who I am and I guess you just have to deal with me because we, we see so many people like that. And what I hear you saying, Rich, is I'm still learning, I'm still growing, I'm still changing. And yeah, I'm 20, whatever years into this, but there's more to learn, there's more to grow. It's not a sign of my weakness or something bad about me. It's just a part of being a human being that continues to be changed and shaped in my journey.

Yeah.

So early on in your story, Rich, you know, the conviction happens, you're on probation and I imagine you're trying to clean your life up. There's all these things you can't do. You're, I imagine, you know, going to church every week and maybe in the front row there at East Hill. In those early days, were there some strategies you found that did not work? Things that you thought like, hey, I got to do this to recover and realized this actually isn't helping me. Were there any areas or things like that that you just realized really didn't help you?

You know, I may be the one that didn't really struggle with that a whole lot because of being on probation. Like I said earlier, I just didn't have a choice. So I was in court ordered treatment and a pure desire group, double barrel. Now I can tell you for me personally and then just the statistics in court ordered treatment, which I think quarter treatment is great, but in the group I was in, almost every guy reoffended and the two guys that didn't were in pure desire groups at East Hill. So there's a lot to be said to there. But I, there wasn't anything that I quote, tried because I was just, you know, I didn't really try to stop before I, before everything came out. But once everything came out the legal stuff started and it's like, I have no choice. Yeah. You know, and again, I'm so thankful that my brother confronted me, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. Yeah.

What do you think it was about the court appointed program? Because I imagine for some people they think of that as, boy, that's probably a really intense thing and they make you do it and, and yet your experience is something we've heard a lot that if that's all someone does, it's typically not very effective. So what, what were the differences or what did you notice about what, what wasn't happening in that court ordered program that made the Pure Desire experience different for you?

Yeah. So very similar in the sense where you meet for two hours, you have homework and you share. But for me there was no, I mean there wasn't this spiritual aspect. One of the things that I discovered or learned through that process was that. And it came out in some comments of, of because a lot of pastors have abused kids and have gotten into trouble. You know, going to church isn't the answer. And I mean there's some truth to that depending on the individual because that's, you know, it happens and. But at the same time I knew for me that I needed more than just court ordered because I would sit there and even at a young age I could tell that those guys were lying because I was professional liar and could totally pick up on it. And I could tell that they're feeding the line.

They were just getting through the program.

Exactly. They're, they're paying their money, they're just doing their time and they're just one out of it. Yeah. You know, even though I didn't like going, I got a lot of great, great stuff out of it. I mean there are some great books and some of them I still have and I still refer to quite often and. But so there is a vast difference just between a court appointed and then having a very spiritual based scientific base. You know, kind of that holistic approach that we have that. Really. Well, one, it forced me to get into the word at a young age because it's part of the. And trusting that, okay, I can't do this on my own. One, I need healthy guys around me and obviously being in the word. So there is two. And I even tried to bring a book and say, hey, this is what I'm working on. And he's like, yeah, so like, okay.

So Dr. Ted takes you under his wing and still hasn't let go. Still flying along.

Right.

With him. But for you? Because not everybody's gonna have that same experience.

Right?

Like, not everyone's gonna have Dr. Ted or someone like Dr. Ted that takes them under their wing and can kind of shepherd them through it. So what would you say were some of the things you picked up from TED as far as like, key elements to finding freedom? And think about the people who are listening, like maybe they're early on or in maybe even a similar situation, you know, as you were. What are some key things that you'd share that brought about that freedom?

You know, he just told me early on, he says the only way I'm going to do this is I got to surround myself with other men.

So community.

Community, yeah, and not just surround them, but you have to trust. I mean, he's told me you got to trust in the process. I mean, we know it's tough. It's a two to five year and I'm 20 plus in it, you know, So, I mean, it is tough. Every step, every day is a challenge. And he told me that, he says there's going to be battles every day, there's going to be victories every day. And you know, so just him pushing me and believing in me and constant, like I said earlier, just constantly giving me encouragement and saying he's proud of me and, and driving me into just be a better man. That was huge. And so when I look at. And like you said, I know a lot of guys aren't going to have access to a Ted. Like, you know, I'm.

There's only one Ted as far as.

I, yeah, I've experienced, you know, but when you can surround yourself with some guys and even some, some seasoned guys who have been through the process and that are those encouragement to you that are, that would literally do anything for you, those are the guys that you need in your, in your life. And a lot of that happens in the group setting. I mean, I, I still get calls from guys and groups from a long time ago. I've had calls, I used to get calls and sometimes I do late at night, you know, guys on, quote, on the cliff, getting ready to do whatever and you know, and they, they call because they can trust me. And that's kind of the relationship I have with Ted. Or really is it? I mean, I know that if I needed something, I could say, hey, I'm desperate.

Yeah.

And half the time I don't have to say anything. He'll just look at me and said, what's going on? You know, that's another great thing is because when you Have a mentor, somebody like that. You don't even have to ask a question. He's just going to see it. Because body language speaks pretty loudly.

As I hear you share. Rich, one of the advantages you had being exposed the way you were, the legal issues, it really forced you into the need of I got nowhere to go but up from here. It just strikes me how crucial that element is in our recovery. And that doesn't mean we have to have had legal issues or hit people. Talk about rock and bottom, and I think rock bottom is just really anywhere you're low enough to realize I don't know the way to my own recovery. And I think for a lot of people that we've watched struggle in group or in and out, and they commit for a while and then not that undergirding so many of those stories is the sense of, I don't really need this. I kind of know what I need to do. I've got my plan here. And yeah, I should probably go to group because my wife said to her, my pastor or. But a little bit of it, like you're saying, it's people who are kind of paying their time, but not really at that place of I'm desperate that I'm just going to trust the process and the people around me, and I'm going to quit acting like I know the way out and. And what an advantage that gives someone and gave you in recovery, because then you are open to what you need to learn and hear and grow and what changes to make.

Yeah. You know, we just. I think for guys especially, we just have to learn to set our pride aside.

Just a simple step in the process.

I mean, literally. I mean, yeah, because it's like, gosh, I don't want to share. I don't want to open up myself that much. I mean, if you can't do that, well, you're just never. You're just always going to be in bondage to that sin in your life. And I see it. I see it in guys and groups and, you know, you want it so badly for them, but they. They just don't want it bad enough for themselves.

Well, and part of that bondage can be just the secrecy over what we've done. And even in recovery, even if we're not engaging in the same behaviors, there can still be some of that secrecy and that shame. And I don't want people to know. I mean, this whole area is so private and personal. I think for a lot of people, it's tempting to have that mindset of I'm just going to get better, move on with my life, and never talk about it again. And I'm sure you felt some of that. And yet here you are on a podcast sharing your story, and this is far from your first time. I know you've shared your testimony at church and you wrote a book and I've heard you speak at conferences. So where did you find the courage, or what maybe brought you to that tipping point to say, I've got to start telling people my story and what God is doing in my Life?

Funny story 1. I never wanted to tell my story because in a small group was totally fine.

But why, of course. Why would you?

Yeah. Until. So 9th April. Or see 2007. April 2007, I think it was Easter week before Easter, after Easter, I can't remember. Ted calls me and he goes, hey. He goes, you're gonna give your story.

Didn't ask you, told you.

Yeah. Kind of just says, hey, that's what.

A mentor gets to do, I guess.

Get to tell your story at the church. I'm like, yeah, not gonna happen.

Yeah.

Long story short, I gave it five services.

Oh, my.

And each service was a wreck.

Yeah. If you're gonna go, you might as well go all in.

Yeah. So I was literally reading a paper. Well, through tears.

Yeah.

Because it was like I was scared to death. I knew a ton of people, a lot of people at church already knew that were close to me, what was going on, and had known my story a little bit. But I had a lot of friends that I went to school with, a lot of visitors. And then afterward, after every service, I had a standing ovation. I had men and women come up to me in tears. I had men and women come up to me that were angry. I had one woman that came up to me, shook my hand, she was so angry. And I just apologized to her that for the abuse that happened in her life. She didn't say it, but I could totally tell. And then she just kind of broke. Yeah. So that was the first time.

Yeah.

And then literally just a few years back, three, four years ago, Jason, who was. Who was the next pastor Ted, son in law, asked me to do my testimony again. And that was Easter weekend, so that was crazy. So, yeah, two times at church. And even that time, I was still nervous giving my testimony then because as I was looking out then, I was seeing. I haven't seen him since high school. I haven't seen these people since high school. So it was like a whole new crowd. They can open up again. But that was the first one in 2007 where I didn't want to. And Ted just encouraged, he goes, rich, it's powerful. And I remember saying, man, we've given testimonies of alcoholics and drug addicts and people that have shot people or stuff like that. And I said, we've never had a sex addict get up there or give the testimony like this, a child abuser or whatever. And he goes up, he goes, you're the one for.

You're that man.

Yeah.

Oh, I didn't mean me.

And what I love about this, Rich, is that. And I think that this is really true. And I think that we assume that it gets easier to tell our story, and I think that I get more comfortable with my story, but I don't necessarily love telling my story. Like, I don't love talking about the same sex, you know, experience I had. I don't love the years of pornography. I don't love how it acted out in relationships. And so it's not like. And I want people to get that from your story is you're sitting here and, like, I think you mentioned, like, thousands, bro. It's probably hundreds of thousands of people have been impacted by your story, if not more. Like, we don't even know the half of it, probably. And even so, even sitting here, like you've told people this stuff, people know this is pretty public stuff that you're sharing. It's still not easy for you to sit here and share it. And so what I want to encourage people off of that is that it still takes courage to tell your story, even if it's the millionth time. And it's powerful, because the thing I'm getting from you right now is not just that your story is powerful, because it is, but also it's powerful that it still takes courage to do it and you're still willing to do it. Like, you don't have to. We didn't force you to be here. But, I mean, maybe Nick's your boss, but.

Well, I think what you don't see, I mean, it was on camera or not, is, you know, being a big guy, you kind of hide how you feel a little bit.

Yeah.

But like, on the inside.

Yeah.

I can feel my body shaking on the inside.

Yeah.

I get that every time I share, even if I'm on the phone one on one, it's just this natural reaction. And I think I was sharing with you earlier, Trevor, that when I just looked at the questions, I can feel this. Yep. This sense of whatever in my stomach like, okay, this is probably going to be hard. Pretty deep. Because this is a little bit different than just writing out my story. It's just, you know, it's. I think the questions are great about just kind of diving in a little deeper, you know, and. But yeah, I can feel the inside is kind of like just kind of.

Yeah, you know, for sure. Do you find, though, that every time as you share Rich, there's just more of that, More of that fear, more of that shame, more of that old voice of all people reject you if they know your story? Do you find that more and more it just keeps getting dealt with and dissipating as you are courageous to share your story?

I think so. You know, the way I felt last night, I was definitely attacked by the enemy. I didn't sleep well. He said, he said, I just remember feeling. And not audibly, but just almost a sense like, well, you don't need to tell your story. Everybody knows it. So he goes, why even share anymore? It's kind of mute. It happened so long ago, you know, trying to discourage me. I mean, and I even had this thought. I was like, oh, maybe I'll just go tell Trevor. I don't feel comfortable doing it.

Yeah.

You know, trying to look for the way out. But that's what I did my whole life was trying to look for the way. Yeah, because that was easy. Yeah. You know, because if it's hard, then it's worth doing right, you know, and it's healing.

Totally. I would have called Ted and been like, hey, can you get Rich to get in here on the podcast? That'd be great. Okay, so specifically, I want to talk about one relationship that has changed for you with your niece, because I think that is such a huge thing. But let's start in general. How have relationships for you changed, grown, developed and really. Because relationships are different for you now, dive into that. How are they different?

So very different. So we did do counseling and family reunification. I think that's what they called the counseling. So we did do counseling through that and then had that with my niece and stuff. And I remember when my niece had her first two babies, they were born, that we went and saw the babies and, you know, I haven't seen her in quite some time, but we did go through that process. And obviously I shared about the relationship with my brother and sister in law and then my other two nieces, his other two daughters. You know, I love seeing them and we have a good time when we're all together and so that's great. You know, and I. I remember one time my brother was saying early on, he's something about, you know, if I ever wanted to be a part of the family, you got to show. You got to show me. And that was a challenge that I didn't take lightly because I never so good, because like I mentioned earlier, the one person outside of Ted that I trusted was my brother. Yeah. So he had every right to not have me be a part of his family literally ever again. And I know it was tough on them. It was tough on our whole family. But I think through that, what it's done is every relationship I have, I try to invest in it 100%. Now, sometimes when you do that, you can only extend yourself so much. But I think that's. You know, we've talked about setting boundaries at work, and it's like, I'm always available for people. Well, you know, I can't be available 24 7.

Right.

You know, but it's. It's wanting to be able to have these intentional relationships and healthy relationships. And I learned that just by the hard work of being on probation, because I knew what it was going to take to. To have. Just to have a conversation with my brother, you know, and my family, you know, and. And being able to share that. I think I'm closer even with my kids now, of sharing my story with them, you know, a while back and, and seeing them grow up. And, you know, my daughter, I mean, she. She works. She's a crime victims advocate for. For girls who get abused and stuff, so she works with the courts and. And she shares my story, which is amazing, you know, so the relationships are key, you know, and I don't always do it right, but, you know, it's. I value each relationship. Yeah.

Well, I think a point. I just want to underscore in what you said there that that really is valuable to hold on to. The way your brother responded to you, I think is appropriate. Like he was looking for the possibility of relationship, family, being together. But that willingness to say, but you're gonna have to show it, like, you're gonna have to do some work here and not just wait for us to forgive you. And you did. You did work and you applied yourself to a process, and you were a person that continued to grow and change and develop, and that led to, along with your brother's openness to it, the. The relationships being restored and redeemed. And I just. I think we find a lot of people in recovery that can kind of get into the same passive mindset of well, let's see if she forgives me. Well, we'll see if they ever let me back in and almost excuse themselves from the work they need to do that. That sometimes we need to be the one that hears. Well, you're going to need to show it. You're going to need to show that you are a growing, changing person that is worthy of a restoration of trust and relationship. And so I love in your story that there's both aspects of that, both your brothers and your family's openness to, hey, we. We would like to see this restored. And then your willingness to do the hard work and lean into that process. So it's, I think, a huge encouragement to others. So, Rich, a lot of people know what you do here at Pure Desire, but talk a little bit more about just how has God used your story to now be one of the ways in which you get to minister to and help others? How has God used your story to become the way that you minister to people?

You know, I. It's super, super easy in a sense, because I can almost connect with every single guy on every phone call, just about, you know, give or take the legal stuff, but you take the legal stuff out, I could still connect with them. And, you know, I understand even on the betrayal side from being abused. So I understand kind of both ends of the spectrum a little bit, you know, so I can kind of relate on both sides and be able to talk to couples or. But really, God has just given me this. Like I said earlier, my goal is to help one guy, you know, through my story. And now I get to do this every day when I come to work. Actually, you know, not a lot of people get to say, oh, man, I can't wait to go to work. It's like, man, I get to go help people every single day. They're either find a group. I'm either helping a husband or a wife find a group. So get them connected. Helping a church. Start groups, you know, international groups, I mean, you name it, all over the world. So now it's not just local. But I wouldn't have the ministry opportunity if I didn't go through all the pain. And I think I may have shared this before, you know, you know, where you have the furnace. I love the story. I always go, like, with veggie tails, because my kids like veggie tails, you know, and then the furnace. And, you know, I believe God kept me in the furnace because he could easily just, like, take me out and said, oh, yeah, you're healed and you don't have to go through this. And. Because I know God can heal anybody at any given time. But he kept me in there just so I could kind of. I like to smoke, have my smokers going. So he kind of let me in there just to smoke and bake a little bit.

Yeah, right.

Just so I was. Yeah. And, you know, it was all in his perfect timing and then the opportunity to come on board, Gosh, five years ago, on staff, to do this full time. And even though I'd been volunteering forever.

400 years.

Yeah. But it's pretty remarkable that my story, even though it happened so long ago, there's men and women that are literally going through it today.

Yeah.

I just talked to a gal just a couple days ago, and she shared that two people in her family are in prison. One of them's not getting out.

Yeah.

And. And she goes, well, I don't know what to do for them. So I said, well, you know, so we're gonna send them my book. I said, hey, this is great for them because they'll be able to relate. So just, just that part of my story to be able to relate to those, that specific population that are struggling because there's a lot of men and women that are in prison right now that aren't going to get out, but it doesn't mean they can't experience freedom. And I've said that quite a bit. And, you know, this is just pretty remarkable. You know, I mean, we look at, you know, what we've done for so many people around the world.

Talk about the pastors groups that you're leading.

Oh, yeah. So we have right now. So I just got done leading five pastors groups. I think we have. We're up to nine total right now. Some. Some around there. Yeah. So now I'm leading, which is kind of weird for me. I remember saying this in my first pastors group that I. The first of five that I started leading. It's like, I remember telling them was like, man, this is weird. You guys are all pastors, and I'm just the guy that works at Pure Desire. But they love that, that and, you know, they're able to meet and not have to put on the pastor card. So each of our groups, our online groups, you know, have six or seven pastors in it. And I absolutely love it. And I've shared my story. And then, yeah, one pastor, he. He made a comment and I just, I love the comment. It really meant a lot to me. He goes. He goes. He said, just in the short Time of being in group. And this would probably about maybe halfway through group that he mentioned, he goes. He goes, I can already feel and see a change in myself. And then he talked about how his wife had said the same thing and that just by being in group and me facilitating has helped him be a better pastor. And the way he communicates from amaz the pulpit, which is pretty humbling because it's like, yeah, I never thought I'd be helping pastors, for one. I just thought it'd be helping just regular guys. But when it comes down to it, a pastor is a regular pastor.

Pretty regular guys, too.

Yeah. So I had to separate those two.

Yeah.

It's just a title that.

That's just. What I love, though, is that you're. You're helping leaders who oversee churches that will help men and women and families. And the longevity of what you're doing is significant.

Yeah. And I'd say most of those pastors groups, with the exception of maybe just a couple of them.

Yeah.

Don't have any Pure Desire groups yet.

Right?

They will.

Yes. Coming soon. They will there. And I mean, like, I'm thankful that you did this, because I know I probably knew about 80% of that, but there was a. There was a good chunk in there that I didn't know. And it's just cool to hear more because you get to know somebody, you know what I mean? You get more of their story, it fills it out a little bit more. But then also there are just these dynamics and nuances to stories that connect with people in some different ways. And so, dude, we appreciate you just as a person. We appreciate the ministry you have and that you still choose that courageous step to share your story. So thanks for being with us, man.

As always, and I enjoy it.

Wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map to your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. Remember, if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you are a subscriber, please write a review. It helps others find the podcast. Lastly, never stop being healthy.