171 - Lapse vs. Relapse

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Happy day to you people. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 171 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stembo.

I did it my way.

Is that Sinatra?

I think so. That what I just did? No, that was not Sinatra. I realized as I started it that I didn't actually know the tune very well, which makes it incredibly difficult, and I felt very pitchy. So my apologies to everyone out there that loves Sinatra. That was a very loose adaptation of Sinatra.

That's going on footage forever. Oh, Lordy. Okay, we have a cool episode for you today. Sorry, I'm just trying to get past the Sinatra thing, which, I mean, praise the Lord. I have Apple music.

Maybe I should have gone with New York, New York. That was a little more, you know, that's easier to read.

Yeah, yeah, he's got some good stuff. He's got some good stuff.

Anything but what you did.

Few things real quick to help recover from Nick's intro here. First off, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. We're on all the major platforms, and if you can give us a review, it helps other people find. The podcast means a lot to us. We do go read those, we see those, and it is very meaningful, for sure. Also, follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We're reedesirepdmi. And if you like video content, want to consume it that way, we have clips of these episodes up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Okay. And then the last thing, for so many of us, it is difficult to. I think we all really, at our core, desire sexual integrity, especially growing up in a relationship with Jesus, you know, that his way is the best way, and we want to pursue that for so long. A lot of us just struggle with knowing where to start. And if I start this, is this actually going to be the path to lasting freedom? And for that reason, and from a lot of experience and foundation of pure desire, we created the Sexual Integrity 101 video course.

And another thing we've noticed is that we are just way past the time where we can talk about sexual integrity as a men's issue or a guy's problem. And so we were really intentional about this on the Sexual Integrity 101 video course that there's equal time between male presenters and female. So two of us that are guys on the speaking team, and then two of Our women and the interviews are couples, the guests who share it's two men and two like. And I don't know if we meant to have that equal of balance, but as we did it, we realized, oh, we really pretty equally split this. And I think what it does is really pulls down that wall of, well, this is for men and no, this is for people. And so we want men and women to watch this. And certainly there's value in watching it with others in your gender to have a level or layer of conversation that maybe you can't in a mixed group, but couples could watch this together. Families, small groups. It's really designed to be a course for people, and that's why we're excited for everyone to go through it, because we think it'll help them see how this impacts all of us, whether we're the ones struggling or being impacted, and how we can all be a part of the solution.

Yeah. And we have it streaming on our website or you can order DVDs at PureDesire.org101. So today's episode, like an old friend of ours, we see him every week, but he hasn't been on the podcast for very, for a long time. And as Tyler Chinson, he's our clinical director, one of our clinicians, and we talked about this area of nuance in recovery, this idea of lapse versus relapse.

Yeah. And to refer back to our friend Frank Sinatra and his words, I did it my way, I think it gets into an area of our recovery that can really be a challenge because we know, okay, the relapses, obvious painful lines I've crossed that I promised myself or others I wouldn't go back to. But lapses go into that gray area that have a lot to do with our patterns, our habits, preferences, just things that we've maybe been caught up in and we maybe know they're not the best, but we kind of like to do it my way. Like, this is the things I do, it's the movies I watch. And when we start to look at some of those as being part of what leads to our old pattern and needing to have a willingness to really honestly assess what's healthy for me and what's not, it's a challenge. And so we just tried to have a really thought provoking conversation about what do we do with those, what do we overlook and why and what do we need to do instead. And I just think it's going to challenge everyone to look at their behavior and their patterns and hopefully respond with a lot of health and wisdom.

And Frank Sinatra does not show up one more time on this episode. It's a good one. Enjoy. Tyler, it has been, as we just talked, about eight months.

It's been quite a while.

Yes.

Since you've been on the podcast. Glad to have you back.

Thank you. Appreciate the invite.

Yeah. I will tell you, it's not that we don't want you on the podcast. It's that you're the clinic. Okay. It's. You're the clinical director. You have a full counseling load on top of, you know, managing our clinicians, who also have a ton of workload.

Indeed.

And need a lot of managing, probably.

Why don't you, like, just mention right now the growth of counseling. Oh, my gosh, this year. Just talk about it for a second.

Well, it's been amazing. We've looked at the numbers over the last three months, and each month, year over last year, month over last year, 50% growth.

It's crazy.

In counseling appointments.

So y' all been busy?

We have been busy. And each session is 90 minutes.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of hours there that.

A lot of heavy lifting, some serious work.

We appreciate you carving the time out, and that's also when we can get it in. We'd love to have you. So we have talked about this topic, and me and Nick were discussing it a little bit. We feel like we need that clinical perspective in this one as well. But we've talked about it in some FAQ episodes, and we had an episode on relapse specifically, but we haven't actually dug into it for a full episode yet. But the idea of a lapse versus relapse in the recovery journey, and I. It's a question that I've gotten emailed in, you know, asking for it, and so it just felt like it was a good time to have this conversation. And like. Like I said, we've talked about this a little bit, but let's kind of define it again. From your clinical perspective, how would you define or differentiate a lapse from a relapse?

Okay, first of all, I would define the relapse.

Yeah.

I think that helps us put the lapse into context. But a relapse is returning to that place that you promised you wouldn't return to. That's a relapse. And it may also be a promise to others that you wouldn't return to that space. Let's see. And then a relapse is actually staying in that space. So it's a place that produces shame, guilt, and despair. That's relapse.

Yep.

It's a line that's crossed when you swore you wouldn't cross it, and that's relapse. For example, it's the alcoholic who takes a drink, the drug addict who does his thing there with drugs, or the sex addict that acts out sexually. That's a relapse. With any addiction, it's an action or behavior outside of the agreed upon action plan for healthy living. So that's how I would define a relapse. A lapse is a momentary return to that unwelcome behavior. It's a person who lapses. A person who lapses does not continue acting out in the addictive behavior. In a lapse, a person quickly recognizes that they're either close to that line of acting out or that they've crossed it and that they must retreat back to health. That's how I would distinguish relapse from a lapse.

Yeah, that was. And that's. I've. I'm really glad that we're having this conversation because I feel like I've had some conversations with group members that have asked. Like I had a group member call me asking, is this something I tell my wife about? Is this something that counts as a relapse? And this topic came into conversation, and that's what I thought too. I wrote down that the time and the response to me dictate lapse or relapse. That if I respond in health and know exactly what to do to take steps back toward health, that to me has always seemed like a lapse. So to hear what you're saying makes sense to me that it's the duration, but then also the immediate response to that.

I would add one thing to that. The definition of a relapse.

Yeah.

If there's a spouse involved, that helps determine the definition of a relapse.

Yeah. Explain. What do you mean, explain that?

Well, for some, a relapse is pornography, masturbation. For others, fantasy could be a relapse, could be their thought life. And it's important to have the betrayed spouse involved in defining a relapse because for some spouses, fantasy double take, those type of behaviors constitute a relapse or even a lapse. Yeah.

I think it's a theme we're probably gonna end up circling back to quite a bit in this episode is just that reality of if you are married and in that relationship, there has to be conversation and agreement around these topics because there's not really a neat, clean. I mean, what. What some people might be looking for in this episode is, well, I just want a neat, clean definition of lapse versus relapse. And then I'll know. If it's a lapse, I don't have to tell my wife or my husband, and if it's a relapse, I do. And just tell me what those are. But it's like, well, no, in every relationship, those lines and boundaries are going to look differently based on the history within that relationship. Maybe a person's family of origin issues, maybe just their general ability to rebuild trust, or how. How soon, how far you are into your recovery. I know what. For my own wife in our story, what initially was a relapse versus a lapse was much more heightened in the first six months than maybe where we were a couple of years into the journey because there was progress and traction and things we were working on. So I think for anyone listening, that's just kind of hoping this will be their get out of jail free card. If I could say it that way, like, oh, phew, they just listed 10 things I don't have to tell my spouse. It's like, well, that's not really how it works. Because in a relationship, those are conversations and things that need to be agreed on. Because if. Here's the scenario I would paint. If you are treating something like a lapse and saying to yourself, oh, I don't have to tell my wife, and then she finds out later that you've been lapsing in this way and not telling her and she feels it's a relapse, it's going to be like, doubly painful because now you've not been telling her and there's a whole history of it. And so you just don't want to get into that situation. So I think navigating, if you're in a relationship, what does this look like for my spouse is going to be absolutely crucial. And. And just the only other thing I was going to say about the two definitions, what I have found consistently, whether in my life or people I'm in group with, is lapses that go unaddressed consistently become relapses. So it's not whether or not I need to respond to one or the other. You know, okay, a lapse you just ignore and a relapse you respond. It's like, no, Both need a way that we respond to. It may just be the level of our response is different based on where we're at. So I would say keep that principle in mind. Lapses that go unaddressed always lead into relapses. Or more often than not. I wouldn't say it's a guarantee. It's just. There's a pattern there.

Yeah, absolutely.

So let's keep taking this idea deeper. Tyler, what would be some examples or maybe specific stories you would give about what's a lapse? And how might a person understand how they're defining their lapses?

A lapse can be a lingering thought. Lingering thought. What you do with that initial thought, that could be a lapse. It can be edging. We use that term around pure desire. Edging is moving up toward a lapse or relapse and then pulling back, pushing toward. That's another example of a lapse. Scrolling online late at night. That could be a lapse. Yeah, it's just moving toward a relapse. A lapse can also be acting out in that unwanted behavior such as pornography, masturbation. The person has crossed the line of demarcation between healthy living and unhealthy living. That's a lapse. We have to address it. But they don't remain in that space again, they don't continue to act out in the behavior. They initiate some of the safeguards that they've established ahead of time. So they recover. They get back into sober living quickly. If the action is repeated on a regular basis, the person is not really in recovery, but they're continuing to act out in their addiction. So are they living in relapse? So they are living in relapse.

Right.

If that lapse continues over and over and over again. Going unaddressed.

Yeah, yeah. Again, to kind of like flesh out what I was thinking about. The difference between the two is that if. If I do end up, like. Because I. This was a part of my. My matrix. Right. When I was. When I was. Before I got into recovery, part of my matrix was starting with social media, just that scroll. And it wasn't anything hard, like, it wasn't harmful at that point. But it starts there. And so what I've found is that when that tends to happen, that I can view as a lapse where I just start mindlessly kind of going through it, and then I hit the search feature, and then I. Maybe it's even on accident. And that tends to happen especially when you're on the Internet. You can see something that you didn't mean to see or is you didn't know was going to be there. But then what do you do at that moment? If that moment is okay, I need to get off of this. And like, I can tell you just. Even today, I was looking for another page on social media that I had seen this post from and I was searching for it, and an image comes up of just an attractive girl on Instagram. And for me, it wasn't something where I lingered or went into. It was something I. And I'm so thankful I'm at this place now in my journey where I was like, okay, I remember what that was like. And then I immediately got off it, and it's like, I don't need to look anyways. It's fine. And that for me, I wouldn't even say that that is a lapse, but those are the experiences that can become a lapse. If then I realize I'm 10 minutes deep and I'm like, where did the last 10 minutes go? I'm just numb, like, scrolling through it. But then a lapse to me in that sense is then do I stop the behavior and then make to put things into practice so that doesn't happen again or reach out or. I mean, sometimes that's. Revisiting the three circles for me is a part of that too, to kind of defining those.

Yeah. I think something I find helpful is to think about a lapse as a poor decision in a moment in time. Whereas a relapse tends to be a poor sequence of decisions or a cycle of decisions.

Yeah.

Where one leads to the next. Just what you're describing. So I'm on social media, I see something triggering, and I realize I've lingered on it. I've maybe even gone into, oh, who is this person? Or, you know, I'm. I'm starting to. To move into it. Like, whoa, okay. And. And that moment of awareness, like, I've. I've made a bad decision here. Now if I retract, get out of that. Talk to a group member, you know, based on whatever my safety plan might say with my spouse, is it something they need to be communicated or not? That might be different Relationship. Relationship. But that. Now that was a lapse. But as you described, if that became. Okay, there was that day, and then the next day I looked again and took it to the next level. And now it becomes a sequence of events that lead into relapse. And this is also where I think our three circles tool serves us so well. Because really, in a lot of ways, what you put in your middle circle, those guardrails or boundaries define in a sense what a lapse would be like for me. I forgot. And I took my phone into the bathroom. Maybe I didn't even turn it on or take it out. I just realized it was in my pocket and I wasn't mindful of. I'm going into a private secluded place with my phone. That's a lapse, because that's a guardrail I have. If I take out my phone and I'm scrolling in that private room, well, now I'm in a sense, could say relapse, because that's a level beyond even what my boundary says. So that's where I think your middle circle can really help you to just define what. What are those areas I recognize are part of old patterns or lead me astray. And I've put guardrails, and then if I cross one, like right away, triggering that sense of, oh, I'm lapsing into bad behavior, how do I deal with it appropriately so it doesn't become a part of a pattern and go somewhere I don't want it to go?

Yeah. So let's take that example. Let's say that we have that as one of our guardrails, not taking our phone to the bathroom. And let's say I go into the bathroom and then I come out of the bathroom like, oh, okay, I left my phone in. Is that something. So if that being a lapse, a poor decision or not something that I'm aware of, and I make this decision, should I tell somebody about that, and if so, who do I tell?

The communication for the married person is critical. If you've already established that as a boundary, a guardrail with a spouse, then that needs to be reported to the spouse. It's a collaborative effort here. Restoration really is. And so in that case, if that's the scenario, report it to the spouse. This is what happened. And if there's consequences associated with it, just follow through.

Yeah.

In that scenario, I'd likely reach out to a group guy or gal, just reach out to them, and then there can be a moment of clarity as you do reach out, get an outside perspective. It's just facing reality. But yeah, absolutely. Follow through, reach out.

Yeah.

When I look at my pattern of relapses in the past, I feel like it was always an accumulation of those small things that I didn't talk to anyone about. And I think that's the danger a lot of people face is when there's a lapse, when there's a poor judgment, a decision, something we lingered in our gaze. We can feel that twinge of maybe guilt or shame, which makes us want to just. I'll just move on because I didn't do anything wrong with it. But in not really addressing it with anyone outside of ourselves. It actually increases the likelihood that it could happen again or will keep happening versus if I face that and realize. But this is a part of what I'm committed to changing. I'm not just looking to avoid that one bad behavior. There's a whole system of my choices here. I'm looking to change for the long haul. So I've got to be open with someone. Not because I'm fearful I'm about to relapse. I mean, those are obvious situations. If I can feel I'm on the edge of a full blown relapse, well, we'd all think, well, yeah, you better talk to someone then. The subtle danger is when I don't feel triggered at all. But I know I've crossed a line that's either on my three circles or something I've discussed with my spouse or my group members. And I don't feel like talking about it because it didn't seem like a big deal. Again, I just look back and so often that's what got me into trouble, is in the moment it didn't feel like a big deal, but it started to become, you know, another little pebble in the pond. Another little pebble in the pond until it was getting me to a place I was in trouble.

I. It's funny because I. Even when I was asking the question, I'm thinking it's so dumb. Like if I bring my phone into the bathroom and I'm going to call a group guy and be like, bro, I brought my phone into the bathroom. And then he'll ask, did anything happen? No, it didn't happen. That feels kind of dumb and almost really, really minor. But what I love what you're saying, Nick, is it's that awareness though. Like, I am aware that this is tied to a relapse pattern. That's why I put it together in the first place. That's why it's part of my guardrails. That's why in my recovery action plan, this is a part of reporting to a group member and talking to them. And so it may. I'm just thinking of this as maybe someone who's earlier on in recovery. Really I have to tell somebody every time, like I maybe accidentally see an image or bring my phone into the bathroom. Like that seems dumb. But if you really look under the surface and maybe a little bit deeper into your pattern, those are some of the things that if you can recognize those things now, man, relapse is not going to happen as often. It may never happen again. If you start to see the pattern that far in advance.

What comes to mind as you're talking, Trevor, is just walking openly in the light. There's a true distinction there. If the behaviors are shadow behaviors, even as mundane as they may seem. Yeah. In time, like you, like y' all say, they're going to catch up to an individual. So walking in the light, I think, is really important. And I think after you report to a group member two or three times, you'd probably have second thoughts about bringing your phone in with you. It's like, oh, boy, I'm gonna have to do this again.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's remembering that choices are directions and asking what direction is my choice leading me in? And so if I make the choice using that illustration of taking our phone into the bathroom, because that's a boundary we've set that we don't do, and I choose not to talk to him about it, just kind of ignore that. And then I'm likely it's going to be easy to choose to do that again. Well, I need to see that's a choice for a direction. And the question is that a direction towards health or unhealthy? And I think anyone hearing that would go, well, it sounds like you're choosing some isolation, some secrecy, avoiding your boundaries. That sounds like a choice which is a direction towards unhealth. So is the choice itself that bad or unhealthy? Like. Well, in the grand scheme of bad choices, it's pretty minor, but the direction is the same. It's back towards unhealth. And that's what we're really trying to avoid long term.

Yeah.

So we've. We've kind of mentioned this a little bit, Tyler, but talk with us a little bit more from, you know, the kind of work you do with couples and clients and counseling and helping people develop this recovery action plan. The three circles where they've really clearly defined, you know, health, what sobriety looks like, they've defined their guardrails where they're choosing not to go. And. And they've really understood what's. What is my relapse. Where am I committed to saying, I'm not going there again? How can a lapse and understanding our lapses fit into the construction of our three circles?

A lapse absolutely fits in the three circles and absolutely fits in to the recovery action plan. The easy answer is where that lapse resides is in the center circle. The crash site. That's a lapse elapse can also happen in that second circle out when you violate some of the guardrails. A couple of important notes that I would make with individuals I work with is catalog your work. The recovery action plan, the three circles exercise. Place that in a three ring binder. Have it in front of you. Revisit it regularly. This is what I would consider dashboard of recovery. This items that you have in front of you, remain in communication with those important people, the support people in your life. That's your group members. If it's a spouse, communication is key, and lapse can take place in either of those two areas in the three circles. Yeah.

What's coming to mind as you're describing that is the. There's not. I mean, it's not there, but it almost feels like it's. You are in your middle circle, headed toward the inner circle, the yellow circle to the red circle. It's almost that in between mark between those two circles or those two areas and what's cool. And I just. I like when revelation is coming in the middle of these conversations. But those things picking up on those twinges, like, those are when I need to go back to the three circles. When I need to go back to the recovery action plan and ask myself that question. Why do I feel the twin cheer of guilt? Like, why do I feel like, okay, secrecy starts to become a really attractive option here and evaluate that. Because what I'm seeing in my life currently is when I feel that that's actually an indication of a pocket of unhealth in my life. And maybe it's not in sexual brokenness or that's not specifically leading me to pornography and masturbation or acting out sexually outside of my marriage, but is maybe just this area of, like, for me, it's just the ones that I'm maybe more ashamed of. Like, stuff that's going on with my kid and my, like, currently, I'm working through anger. Right. You guys know we're on an executive team together. We talk about this a lot. But I like that for me, when I feel that twinge there, it's usually attached to an area where I'm struggling or there's some brokenness. Really, it's any area that I feel like is healing is needed. And so for me, when I feel that twinge, I use language, Nick, that you use a lot. That, like you're a sleuth or a detective where you can go in and you start to investigate that. And those are the really cool pockets of recovery I've experienced. When I get this little, like, it's almost like the holy spirit just tapping on the shoulder a little Bit there's something right there. You should go investigate that and I'll show you what's going on. And when I step into that, I realize it may be a small pocket, but there's a door that's leading to stuff that there's just so much more room I could heal in. And so I think that those moments are maybe when we should go back, reevaluate and maybe make changes to the three circles recovery action plan as a part of the conversation with group members and your spouse.

I think a lapse can actually be a really helpful way that we begin to define our three circles, especially that middle circle of guardrails. Because the reality is on the recovery journey, you're not going to be perfect. I mean, that doesn't mean you have to relapse or that doesn't mean you have to go back full blown into your addiction. But the idea that you're going to start recovery and just be perfect now and forever is like, that's not human. I mean, so somewhere along the way you're probably going to linger on an image, get caught up in a fantasy, start to, as you said, Tyler, edge into some old behavior. And in those moments, I think we can ask the question, okay, why did that happen and what could have prevented it? And if I'm being honest with myself, it probably wasn't the first time that that happened. And so, like, if it's. I saw a real triggering image on a social media site and I lingered on it and I realized I was getting stuck into an old pattern there. And maybe we moved on and shut the app, but we realized, boy, that's a danger zone. So what boundary could I put in place that would have made it much more difficult for me to do that? And so I've got some things like that. I don't visit that site if I'm alone, if I'm the only one viewing my screen. Those are just sites I don't go to because it is too easy to linger, to get caught up. And that's just one example of how the lapses themselves become informative of what could I change? Again, not to create perfection, because we're on a journey and we're going to make mistakes. But I think it's to try to minimize the damage of those mistakes and minimize what they can pull us into because we've just created wisdom around our patterns and our choices.

Yeah.

You know what comes to mind as you're referring to that, Nick, is the crash site analysis, Another resource at Pure Desire that allows an Individual to deconstruct that lapse or relapse. And some folks that I've worked with, they've looked at a series of CSAs and begin to see the pattern. There is a distinct pattern to their acting out, and that resource is very helpful for them.

As you're saying that too. That's been one thing I've seen in group where if you are in a community of people who are working together on this recovery journey, on this healing journey, as a group member, you can start to see patterns in your other group members that maybe they can't see. Like, I have seen that and personally benefited from someone saying, you realize that every time we have this conversation, it actually starts with this one thing or this one person or this circumstance. Like, you get that, don't you? And sometimes it's like, nope, I had no idea. This is why we're in the group. Thank you. You know, those aha moments. So I feel like that is just another. Another point to emphasize how important group is and community. And maybe it's not a pure desire group, but just a community of people where you're being like you were saying, living in the light with these people. Because then at that point people can say, hey, I know you, and I know that you care about not doing things like this. And I want you to see this area over here or this thing that keeps happening. And I think if you want to maintain health, you need to work on that. And those relationships are key.

I think those strong relationships, in part, are designed to point out our blind spots. And we all have.

Yes.

Yeah.

Can be very helpful.

I've always loved the language of like, I've got your six, I've got your back. I'm looking the other direction, making sure we're covered. Ted would be so proud of me. He was in military language. So if Ted listens to these, I hope he does. So what are. If a lapse happens? Because there may be a difference. I kind of want to get into this. There may be a difference to how I respond for a relapse and a lapse. And we've been over, you know, the important importance of having a recovery action plan and what we do after a relapse. But let's say we. We do hit a lapse. What are some steps you'd encourage people to take? And we've kind of talked a couple of those. But any additional ones that you would say people should take after they hit a lapse?

Well, again, I really value that crash site analysis that is so important. It's a pain to fill out, but it's critical to begin to establish and understand those patterns. So that's one item that I'd recommend. Re engage. Re engage. Whether it be in community or in the recovery resources with family, just re engage. Do not stay in that low spot because shame can take over. And shame is not an ally of recovery at all. It's not your friend.

Yeah.

So re engage. I think that would be my recommendation and suggestion.

Yeah, I try to make that in my own life. Just a part of my weekly check in with my seven pillars group. And whether it fits into my faster scale or the exact questions or not, I'll just say at the end. And I want to be honest about just where I'm at with some Internet issues or something that came up this week. That. And maybe it was like the story you described, Trevor. It's like it wasn't. I wasn't looking for it, but this came up, and I don't think I dealt with it well. And I just, I feel like in being honest with a group and putting that out there, it makes me mindful of those choices, behaviors, and decisions. And so I think the other piece of it that we've mentioned is if you're married, there is that side with your spouse that you need to have talked through, because for some spouses, they've created that relapse line of certain behaviors. They're like, unless it's here, I don't really want to go into it because it just, it opens the whole can of worms and I'd rather not go there. I want you to share that with your group and these people in your life. And then other spouses, they go into that middle circle and say, no, I think it's healthy if you're sharing these as well. And I like being a part of that conversation. So that side of it, you need to have that conversation with your spouse. But I think that's where the. That's what a group is for. When there's a lapse that's happening, I think as soon as possible, even in a phone call, like, hey, this came up today, and I don't think I handled it well. And I just know when I do that, if the lapse had any, let's say, power over me, it just seems to dissipate it. It's like that little pocket of secrecy or the, hey, what if I went back there just kind of is released. And so I see that not as a shameful, I got to tell them again, but really a healthy proactive like, man, if I want to kind of rid myself of this little fog that I suddenly feel, talking through it with a group member is the fastest way back to feeling I'm in the light, to use your phrase earlier, Tyler, to.

Your point of re engaging. Because as I've been through recovery, I realize that it's so many emotional things that are motivating so many of my behaviors. And going back to the whole anger thing, I mean, it's just the chapter of life I'm in right now. But for me, anger, I have not seen a connection until recently about how motivating that was to my matrix of addiction and the relapse and really the unhealth I was living. And I would say, like, I get upset with my three year old, that's what happens. He's three and a half. And everyone who has a three year old said yes and amen or has had a three year old. Right. So what I'm realizing though is, and I don't know if I've defined yet relapse when it comes to anger, but I'm in the process of that. But I just feel like there are these moments that we have this interaction and I just get tense and I like grit my teeth. And that to me has felt that twinge. Like, okay, there's something going on there and reengaging. Like, I haven't been in group for a little while now and I'm just now starting a genesis process this week for that reason. Like, I felt this twinge. Okay, it's time to get locked back into recovery and let's like attack this area of life. And that's what I would encourage people. Like, if you're maybe in year three, four, five, six, maybe 10 of recovery and you still feel those twinges of things that you don't, they weren't in the like, main circle of things you were trying to avoid when you began recovery. But maybe there are those pockets in the back. I feel like that's the word I'd use re engage in a community that's working toward this, whether it's pillars or unraveled or genesis process, whatever it may be. But I would just say consider that maybe if you're not in group now.

Indeed, earlier this year, I reached out to a small group of men because I felt that need to re engage with men.

Thanks, Covid.

And it's a life group. We talk about victories and challenges and opportunities where God is moving and how the Lord is moving in our lives. And it's been a lifeline as we've been locked in for months on end. Yeah, it's been helpful.

Yeah, it's really cool.

So, Tyler, what would you say if, you know, if someone's listening and they maybe find themselves kind of in a pattern where those lapses just kind of keep happening now and again, and maybe they're feeling some encouragement that they're not relapsing. So they're not. They're not going all the way back to their old behaviors, but they still feel that this just keeps happening. They're kind of stuck in some negative patterns. What are some steps that we can take to avoid lapses and to really deal with those patterns?

So much of recovery is connected to awareness, awareness of our thoughts, feelings, and emotions. So that's where I would encourage others to begin. Just be aware of your surroundings, of your thoughts, the feelings that are stirred up, and emotions stay connected with others. That's so critical. In that second and third circles of the three circles exercise, you can identify those action steps that are needed to help create those guardrails and then walk them out. Walk out your recovery. We have to be in community. That is so critical. But it all begins with awareness and knowing that you need that support, that. That support is available and helpful for you.

Yeah.

So know the actions necessary to stay out of the ditch.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think the only addition I would have is just understanding recovery is dynamic and directional, as you were mentioning. It's not. I am recovered. Therefore, my three circles and recovery action plan shall be cemented for all eternity. It's a growth and a development and a change. And I think of if a lapse happens, then maybe something needs to go in the outer circle. Okay, what are some healthy habits that I can do that will help me avoid lapses like this in the future and then probably at the same time adding another guardrail around that that, you know, identify. And maybe I don't know what you would say, Tyler, to this, but maybe even use the crash site analysis for a lapse just to evaluate the things around that situation. Like, maybe you didn't do something that is a relapse. But I look at it and it's like, okay, it was late at night when I'm normally not on my phone, or I normally didn't have this difficult interaction at work or whatever it may be, and really dig into it, because then I think that will help you identify what are maybe what's a guardrail that you maybe need to build a little bit taller, or maybe one that there's a Gap in the line that you need to go build at that area. So I think seeing recovery is dynamic and directional. That idea. Am I identifying the lapse? Great. Now am I going to move? Because standing still means you're moving back. You got to either move forward or move back. There's no standing still. So that directional idea.

Yeah. And I'm sure we used this illustration on the relapse episode, but I always think of that, that illustration of a locomotive, a train that's leaving the station and starting to pick up speed. And the more speed a train has, the harder it is to stop or to redirect. And so if you recognize that you're consistently lapsing in an area or in a pattern or a media site or whatever it is, a time of day, a place that you visit, it's maybe asking the question, just like you were saying, Trevor, where do I need to change direction? So sooner or stop the train? Sooner, because it's easier to make a change then. And so if, you know, if my issue is every day on Twitter wasting time and finding I have stuff that catches my eye, it's like, then maybe Twitter's not for me, or maybe Twitter at certain times when I'm alone or vulnerable, it can't be at all. So even though something like that has many healthy and appropriate uses, if that's what gets my train from five miles an hour to 20, I gotta say, okay, I'm. I'm not safe when I hit a certain barrier here. So just adjusting those and then adjusting it on your three circles and letting group members know, I think there's wisdom in that because that is what can create new, healthy patterns. And over time, like we say with our three circles, things may change. We might find that what I need this year, I don't need in five years. But I've also seen it the other direction. For me, you know, I'm year 10 in recovery, and, I mean, clearly not the person I was 10 years ago. But at the same time, I find that there may be things that in health, weren't even maybe an issue when I really was addicted and struggling with relapses, that now just because there's greater freedoms and growth, suddenly, like a new area, like, oh, okay, that's something new I have to be mindful of. And part of that's because we're ever changing people. Our season of life is changing. The people were surrounded by changes. What our kids are up to change, like, just. We're not static people that just can figure this out one week and now we're good forever. It's like this has to be an ongoing growth curve for all of us. And so I think that's the other thing I'd say is just stay open to that process and don't see it as a sign of I'm, I'm still such a weak, you know, worthless person, because we can definitely get into that negative messaging. But to just say this is part of being a growing, dynamic human is new level. As Ted Roberts says, new levels, new devils, there's new seasons of life bring new challenges, and that's where we just use the tools and the growth. We have to face those challenges in that new season.

Yeah, so it's easy to feel shame after a relapse. That's a no brainer. And I can see as we get into this and identify what lapses are, it may still be easy to feel shame. Like, I, I can tell you right now, year five of recovery, where if there's like a lapse or one of those situations, like you bring the phone into the bathroom, it's easy to just kind of cut yourself a little bit. Like, I'm such an idiot. Why did I do that? So shame, it's funny, kind of creeps in slow and steady. How should we feel when a lapse happens? How do we handle those feelings and our emotional responses?

It's easy to feel shame. I mean, for a lot of people, it's very natural to feel shameful. So they're broken. But is that how we should feel? Shame must be dealt with in recovery. And again, circling back around to having a different perspective than your own. Encouragement is critical. Shame is the adversary. Shame's an unwanted companion. And there are many ways to address the shame component. And I think we've talked about it a number of times here in other podcasts, but I would encourage anyone who's listening, who struggles with shame, to do that necessary work to overcome the trappings. Because shame is like an anchor. It's going to hold you back and there's no easy resolution. It requires a clearer and more accurate picture of who the individual is that they're currently not carrying.

I think what I would add is keeping in mind what we've talked about, our definitions of guilt and shame, because we want to remember there is a healthy role of guilt that might be about the behavior. So if in your example, I'm saying to myself, that was stupid, why did I do that? In a sense, that was a poor choice. We might call it stupid. And maybe there's a twinge of Guilt that is meant to lead us to repentance and relationship. That's healthy and good. Now, if we're taking it, that was stupid. Why did I do that? I'm stupid now. It is mingled with shame. And we do want to ask the questions of, like, okay, why. Why is that a shame question? Why do I think I'm worthless? Because I made a bad decision. And so it can actually be a really healthy conversation just to have with yourself before the Lord, with a group member, to be like, man, I. I get that the decision was poor, but why did the decision also make me feel like I'm worthless? Where. Where is there still an old lie or connection I'm listening to? Because that's. That's what I would say. I don't care what year of recovery you're in. Guilt is beautiful. Guilt is what we need to go, oh, that was a bad choice. And I know why. I'm. I'm self aware and wise enough to know why that was a bad choice. Even if it was nowhere near other things I could have done. It was like just that little choice I made that was not wise. And that's guilt, and that's good. And so sometimes it might be separating that we're like, oh, why am I feeling shame? Like, we are not. You're actually feeling guilt, and we need to be glad for that.

Yeah.

But for sure, be attentive to when does my negative thinking go towards my character and personality, not just the choice. That's something we really want to address.

We had a recent episode with Kurt Thompson, who's an expert on shame and challenging thought he gave was that it's not that you have shame, it's what you do with it that matters. And what's funny is in. Within a couple weeks of recording that episode, I experienced for the first time as a father watching my son feel shame. And I don't know if I've told this story on the podcast, but Drew all over himself and with a, thank God, a wet erase marker, not a Sharpie, which I now hate Sharpie just as a brand because of that. It could have been worse, but I walk in to his room and I see it, and I yell at my wife, you know, through the monitor. I don't yell at my wife. I yelled at her. I'm like, hey, get in here. And he goes, no, dad. And I'm like, amy, get in here. And he goes, no, dad. And I pull the covers off and see, you know, he'd drawn in his belly button and everything. And as Amy walks in, he runs to me and is crying and screaming. And for me, I struggled so much with that because I lived with tons of shame, and I still struggle with shame today. You know, it just. It's a part of life. And I love these moments where my wife has so much clarity, where I don't. I'm just struggling so much. I get out and I'm. I'm just describing all this. And she goes, you realize that in the garden that God was the perfect father and was perfectly present, yet Adam and Eve still sinned and felt shame. So it's not indicative of the type of father you are. It's not a direct correlation. And I just. She broke it down. She just. She broke it down. And I. It was. It was just revealing for me that I had too much of my identity wrapped up in it. But then also that shame is not bad. And it reinforced what Kurt had said in. In that episode. It's what we do with it that is so helpful. And so I think it's the same thing with the lapse. It's not that it happened. It's what we do with it that really makes a huge difference. Yeah, this episode's been great. I really appreciate you being here, Ty, and helping with this conversation, and I'm glad that we explored this, because I feel like this is one of those nuanced parts to recovery. And going back to what you said at the beginning, Nick, we hope that this episode is not something that you. I mean, if you started listening to this episode to try to figure out if you can get away with not telling people about a lapse, sorry, man. It's not gonna work. Like, it's just not there. But it is just to add it.

It is, for a lot of us, kind of a next layer of healing. Because when we start this process, usually there's some presenting behaviors that are egregious enough for, like, I gotta do whatever I can to get that out of my life or it's gonna ruin everything. And as we're making traction on that, there's kind of this new form flood of the. Oh, yeah, I forgot about all these other behaviors I've just kind of put up with because they weren't nearly as bad as that one thing. And it is being willing to wade in and go, my healing is worth more than just that certain area. It's like, I'm looking to change the way I do life, and that's what we're all about. So I hope we've helped people move that conversation forward. And challenge their thinking in healthy ways and got them really evaluating, you know, why do I do the things I don't want want to do? And even if no one even would consider it necessarily bad, if I see it as part of that old pattern, I want to keep asking that hard question.

Yeah. So thanks for being here, Tyler. Appreciate it.

It's a pleasure. Thank you, guys.

Good stuff.

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