172 - The Female Addict & Unraveled

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Good morning or evening to you listener. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and you're listening to episode 172 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stembo.

The rains came down as the floods came up. The rains came down as the floods go up. Is it go up when the rains came down as the floods go up. So sing it with me, Trevor.

I. Nope, don't. I don't understand.

You don't build your house on the Lord.

Oh, okay.

Did your parents not take you to Sunday school?

I also didn't have flannel graphs, I believe it or not.

We could just have like a Sunday school sing along podcast. That would be a hit.

The great irony of what you're singing is that it actually is now raining in Oregon at the time of this recording.

We have never been so happy and.

We'Ve never been so happy. But then you also get like these emergency alerts on your phone that flash floods.

Yeah, we've gone from fires, suffocating smoke and now we're worried about flooding.

I'm Covid is still a thing apparently.

I'm just brave with the way 2020 is in December there is going to be a snowstorm to end all snowstorms and honestly I can't wait. But it's going to be crazy.

Isn't that movie called Day after Tomorrow? It's going to be bad.

It feels like that if it can happen, it will happen this year.

We have another good episode today. A few things before if you are not subscribed to the podcast, do it give us a review Also, we love reading those and seeing those and it also helps other people find the podcast. The more reviews we have, the more people will see it. Trust me, it works. Also follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter and instagramuredesirepdmi and if you like to consume video content, we also have clips of these episodes up on YouTube. And then lastly, we just want to talk about this. And this is something that I think a number of people in the Pure Desire family know about, but we haven't talked a ton about necessarily on the podcast is that we offer online groups for Unraveled Seven Pillars, Betrayal and Beyond, Living Free and Hope for Men.

Yeah, we recognized a couple of years ago that for probably still a majority of people around the country to get to an in person group just wasn't practical because there was nothing around them within a reasonable distance. And so we started the online groups for that purpose and then have really just seen it take off because it provides someone the ability to join a group from the privacy of their own home and start their healing journey, whether or not it's happening at their church yet. And because the other thing we're finding is that because they're being led by trained and vetted Pure Desire leaders, and there's a cost to the group, that there's really a high level of engagement from the entire group, which honestly sometimes can be hit or miss when you're in a group at the local church being led by volunteers. And everyone, you know, they've just bought their workbook to be there, but they maybe haven't invested at the same level. And many of those are very good. But I've just seen a lot of the feedback coming in on our online groups, and it's the consistency of the group experience that members are saying, like, everyone was engaged, you know, the way we connected with one another and our leader. And so I don't want to speak it up like it's some utopia that's going to be perfect because we're still humans and we're flawed, and every leader is unique and distinct. But really have found that those groups can be a safe place for someone to find healing, whether they're the struggler, the betrayed spouse. You're going to be led by people who've been there before and joined by a small group of other people that are in the same place you are. And because they're spread from around the country, you may get some really unique perspectives that will help you on your journey as well.

Yeah, I think it's just really important to know that this is a great place to start, especially if you want to bring groups into your church but don't have them already. This is just a great place to start. So go to PureDesire.org groups and you can see all our online group listings there. Okay. So we talked to Ashley Jamison, a regular on our podcast today, and we talked about our resource, again, unraveled for women, but also in the lens of a female addict. Just what it really offers someone who's struggling in areas of love, sex, or relationships.

Yeah, you know, I feel like we at Pure Desire try to talk a lot about how this is not a man's problem, this is a people problem. But it kind of feels like that old, you know, the church idea that you have to say something seven times before people actually hear it. And we will still get comments of like, oh, pure desire has groups for women, or do you have any kind of resources for women that have issues with love or pornography or fantasy? It's like, well, as a matter of fact, we do. And we feel like we've maybe tried to talk about it a lot, but it's still a newer message for a lot of people. And so that's what I hope everyone is reminded of today, that this is a people problem. And. And women can be hurt and trapped and isolated just as easily as men can be. And. And a group or a healing community is probably the most significant way we have seen that people move towards healing. And so we just. We want to talk more about what that looks like, particularly for women. But for all of our listeners, you know, for all the men out there, I think you're going to hear a lot about recovery. You're going to hear a lot about the role that you can play in shaping culture, and you're going to hear a lot about how you could support your spouse if they're interested in one of these groups. So this episode is targeted at women and the unraveled group, but it's definitely not only for women. So I hope everyone will listen. And there's just some really great conversations we had today.

And Ashley actually tells you and I to go through Unraveled toward the end. So it is a good one. And Ashley has led and been through these groups and has also contributed to the resource, so she knows a lot about it. It's going to be a good one. Enjoy. Ashley, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being with us.

Glad to be here.

I wish people could hear the conversations we have before the episodes. I mean, you could. We technically have recorded them, but it'd.

Be like a premium product, though.

I mean, yeah, it could be a.

People would have to really pay to hear that. That good stuff.

Yep.

Like the. Sometimes it's like 12 minutes of us just, like, ranting and raving. Okay, so, Ash, we have you back to talk about. And this is some of the conversations we've been having around the product that we have for women who struggle Unraveled. Some questions, like, is it for women who struggle with pornography and sexual addiction, not just love addiction and some relational issues? And so we kind of wanted to have this conversation about the female addict or struggler and then how unraveled kind of fits in and flows with them. So let's just start with this. So many women, and we know this sitting in church right now, that struggle with sexual brokenness, they Feel this, this double shame. Right. Like I'm struggling with something that no one knows about. I've got shame. But then it also is believed or taught that it's a man's issue. And so there's that double amount of shame. So how would you say, in your experience, both as someone who struggled and now in your current role, how women overcome that shame and actually start their healing journey?

Yeah, I think it's like any shame we talk about when you're around people who get it and who have been there and who can tell you that, no, it's not healthy, but it's more common than you probably feel. You probably feel like you're all alone and then just getting involved with areas that address that. I feel like when women call me and they say, I went to my pastor, it took everything in me to say that I had sexual addiction or pornography addiction. And then he sent me to a group and it was all men. It was a sex anonymous group for all men. And I felt so embarrassed and so awkward, you know, not appropriate.

Right.

And inappropriate. And so I feel like just what we're doing, it feels like turning a big ship, but just making it more aware that this is a women's issues too, and bringing out more resources for women and having more women talk about it, that's what's reducing shame for women.

Yeah.

Well. And I think for many people listening, they need to see the vital role they have in helping change some of that cultural stereotype, particularly in the church. We maybe can't change a whole lot of what's being said or done in culture, but within our church communities, maybe we're the person that could speak up, you know, and someone says, well, you know, we got to help the men with their pornography issue, and we might in love, pipe up and say, you know, this is something that affects men and women, and how could we help the women as well, or if we have a role in the church, just like what you brought up, Ashley, for a female who's struggling with some kind of sexual brokenness, to only see a male staff, which, I mean, there's just reality of our world, the vast majority of churches are either a single pastor, 99% of the time, a man, or a couple of men on staff, who's that woman going to go to? And I think that's a question many women are asking. It's who is a safe person to talk to that, yeah, I can always confide, maybe in a close friend. But if I want to go to someone for help and for Direction, who is that person? And so if you have that kind of role in your church, really establish that. Say, here is, maybe it's a gal on staff that's a counselor. Maybe it's someone on staff that, I mean, who's not on staff, who's just connected to the church, who's really got some experience in this area, understands recovery and healing pathway so that women know there is someone of my gender I can go to. And I think changing that church culture is a big part of what we do to help women. That we don't want to just put it on women to say, well, hey, you're not different than men, so get over the shame and deal with it. We also want to talk to churches and say, you need to change that culture. Because it is going to be hard for women to say, I'm struggling with something too. So I just encourage our listeners to ask, what could I do to help create change in that area?

Yeah, I think part of the. Part of the culture too, in the church is the idea that I have to seek healing inside the church. And I think that that's something too, to what you're saying, Nick, that it is okay to go to an outside voice or an outside counselor or an outside organization. I mean, in all honesty, pure desire, we position ourselves to be that. That we're one of the places that women can go to reach out for any unwanted sexual behavior, any sexual brokenness, any relationship addiction issues. And so I think that it's okay. And I think we need to start teaching that way. And I love, you know, our mutual friend and staff member Rodney Wright talks about, I need Jesus, but I also need a car mechanic when my car breaks down, you know, so it's okay to go to voices or experts outside of the church. And I would suggest going to someone, if you can go to someone who does have a church background so that they can help you integrate what your relationship with the Lord looks like and the spiritual truth that you need on recovery. But I think that it's okay. And I think we need to start saying that message more in the church, that it's okay if you go to a therapist, it's okay if you go to a doctor to fix or set a bone or have surgery. It's okay to go to a mechanic to fix your car. So I think that that is also a cultural shift that I've seen, but I think needs to keep happening.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's really good advice.

So, Ashley, we know that men and women are different in a lot of Ways. I mean, biologically speaking, and the neurochemicals and some of the ways that our bodies and brains react to sex and sexuality. But does sexual brokenness or addiction look different for women than it might for men? What are. What are some of the uniquenesses of a woman's struggle that might help her identify areas where she could seek out help?

Yeah, I want to say the answer to this is they look differently and then they don't look different, because I think that's part of what contributes to the shame, is that men struggle with sex. They don't struggle with love addiction. They don't struggle with needing, you know, pursuing sex to feel love. And women struggle with. Yeah, really false. So. And women struggle with love addiction and not really so much sex addiction because they don't necessarily need it. They won't explode if they don't, you know, if they go too long without it. And so I. I feel like there are some fundamental differences. Obviously, a woman's brain is wired differently and it's. It's more intertwined, and men can compartmentalize a little bit more and separate things. So there's that where I think just from the women that I've worked with and spoke with, the majority of them have some abandonment struggles or a desire to feel loved. Um, and then when it comes to sexual acting out or pornography acting out, they don't always need a visual stimulus either. So it could look different in that area where you could just have a woman who struggles with masturbation, but not porn. And so they don't always have to go together. I feel like there's a lot of different versions and a lot of different brands with love and sex addiction, um, especially for women, because it could be fantasy. It could just be needing to feel loved. And so you may flirt in order to get affirmation. That could be a form of it. It could be masturbation. It could be reading novels, but I wouldn't want to put a big stamp on. It says these are men's issues and these are women's issues. Because even though we may see a majority of the men struggle with visual or sexual acting out and a majority of the women struggling with wanting to feel loved or pursued or safe. It's not always just because you're a man or a woman that you struggle with one of these things. You can have either. Or as a man or a woman.

Yeah. I think to the similarities, we see brokenness happen in the same way. Like the culture you were raised in, the messages that you heard, the wounds that you have. And that's where I feel like is the mutual ground. Like, we all are there, you know, and that may be, you know, someone was abused and then also someone was neglected, but those still are wounds that then motivate, you know, unwanted behaviors. And so what's coming to mind for me is just Julie Slattery's message that she talks about that everyone is sexually broken. You know, whether it's overdoing it with sex and sexuality or even sexual anorexia, maybe you don't like sex. That's all a version of brokenness. And so I think that we can all. We all need to get to that point where we agree that the brokenness comes from the same stuff. And that's where we can all say that's a person issue. But then, I mean, to what Ashley's saying, too, that idea that you need to then give opportunity for women, because they're wired differently to not go through the same stuff that a man goes through, go through a different material, have different conversations. You know, the dynamics is so different.

Yeah, well, that's why it's important that at a, you know, a church or a community level, we don't just run a group for those who struggle, you know, quote, unquote, struggle with pornography. Because so many people hearing that will say, oh, that's not me. And I think maybe in particular, women that feel like, well, pornography is not really a part of my struggle, but they've got a whole range of other issues. So that's why we really encourage churches and small groups, if you're starting a group or doing something, to focus on this area, that you invite anyone who's dealing with any kind of sexual brokenness and just keep it as a broad spectrum. Because we do tend, in our rationalizations and denial and minimization, we don't want to be included in the category of those who struggle. And so at a church level, we need to do whatever we can to minimize that shame and just say we're all sexual beings and we're starting a group for men. We're starting this other group for women that are wrestling with any kind of sexual brokenness. And maybe you list the spectrum of love dependence or pornography or fantasy or romance novels, like just whatever, create this broad category so everyone goes, oh, that kind of sounds like me. The other thing that came to mind as we were Talking was what Dr. Kurt Thompson said on our podcast a while back about how all of us are born into the world looking for someone, looking for us, and it never stops. And I think underneath everyone's drivenness in their sexual behaviors is that question of, do you see me? And that's for men and for women, am I valuable? Am I desired? Am I wanted? Am I seen? Am I respected? And whether that means someone's running out after, you know, images on the Internet or a relationship on Facebook or everything else, I think driving it is that similarity of just wanting to find value through other people seeing and noticing me, whether real or completely fantasy. So that, to me, is a real common denominator for all humans, men and women.

Yeah, I was just speaking to somebody this week who is a man, and he was saying how he, you know, looked through some of our women's resource and thought, wow, so much of this applies to me. I could use a couple of these lessons. And so that's the kind of stuff where it makes you realize that if you put too strict of a label on it, you're going to lose a lot of people. Because a lot of women and men who come into the groups, they don't even really think that the thing that brought them in there is the problem. They're like, yeah, I struggle with this, but that's not my problem. And usually it's when they're digging into the resource that they start connecting the dots somewhere else. And so I guess the broader you can make it, the easier it will be for somebody to come in and then. And then figure out on their own what their issues are.

Yeah. So let's get a little bit more specific to addiction, sexual addiction, when it comes to a woman. Let's, you know, thinking through it, how would a woman identify or establish, yes, I do have an addiction.

Yeah, that this one is really hard. This is, this is what I think part of the reason why we try to make unraveled so broad and, and, and like you're saying, Nick, like, list some of the symptoms, not the, you know, not the diagnosis. But do you struggle with this? Do you have this? Do you have this? Do you have this to try to bring people in? Because if you just say, are you a lover sex addict? That is not going to get women in the door. Because sometimes we don't see it that way. You know, like, how am I a lover sex addict if, you know, this person did this to me and then left? And. But if you say, you know, have you experienced failed relationship after failed relationship? Are you enjoying your sex life with your spouse? You know, if you're asking just very life, you know, questions, regular life questions, it helps them. I think some of the ways we can identify if somebody's struggling with addiction are the same ways we always say. Is it something that's been a struggle for a long time? Is it something that you've tried to stop before? I think sometimes, especially with women, the question that the last question we asked, has it hurt anybody or does it hurt anybody? That can be tricky, because if you're a woman who has a masturbation problem and you're masturbating while making your grocery list, and you're not thinking of a fantasy or you're not looking at porn, it really can seem very harmful. And sometimes women can't connect the dots. How that is, detaching them socially or relationally or sexually from their spouse or others. And so that one, I feel like, can be a little tricky. But definitely they have you been doing it for a long time, and have you tried to stop before? And then eventually they'll see how every addiction affects and harms relationships. But sometimes it's hard to see that up front.

Well, it can be helpful sometimes just to ask the question, absent the terminology of addiction, to just say, are there behaviors in your life that you wish had changed and you've tried unsuccessfully to change, and you're still stuck in a pattern of unhealthy relationships? Or like you were saying, Ashley, fantasy, these patterns that something in you says, I don't want this. I feel like my life would be better without it. And yet, in spite of your best efforts, it's still there. That's why we have this group, because we want to really dig into the deep stuff going on in our souls and the neurochemistry of our brains and see why something has gotten stuck. And I find that when you describe it like that, that's actually very empowering because you say we have a group for addicts. It's kind of shameful, like, defeating. I have to admit, I'm an addict. Go to this group for all these woe is me bad people, and who wants to do that versus a group of man? If there's something in your life that you just want out and you haven't been able to, we've really seen a pathway that works. Come and join in. Then it's like, yeah, well, hey, who doesn't have something in their life they want to get rid of? That has been around for a while. So I think just some of the ways we talk about it can be a difference maker. And I'm not saying you shouldn't use the word addiction, because obviously we talk about it a lot at Pure Desire. But when you're on the front end, on the cusp of trying to start groups, the language you use and the way you describe it really might be a deal breaker for people. So just be mindful of. Are you giving women that open door to say that this is a safe group to deal with stuff you've wanted to deal with, and we're just here to help you do that?

Yeah. I don't know if you guys have seen it. We just watched it last week at the time of this recording. We evacuated last week with the fires and everything here in Oregon. And we watched Brady, my son, watched Wreck It Ralph for the first time, which is, oh, my gosh, such a good movie. But there's this scene where there's this AA for bad guys, Right. And there's this guy, Zangief, who's from Street Fighter, who, the video game, who says, you know, I had this revelation. Zangief is bad guy. But that doesn't make Zangief bad guy. And it just was this hilarious moment. But I feel like that's that idea too. We had to create that culture that it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to have brokenness and step in and get healing. And it's okay to, like, you know, maybe you're making some bad decisions, but it's okay to understand that everyone walks into these groups with a form of brokenness. And that's, again, that idea of creating that language or that culture or that invitation, that's like, everybody has brokenness. They need to process through sexually. So everyone should go through this. And I know you guys did that when you were at East Hills, that this is just a part of the discipleship process. And so I think that the more we get to that point, the easier it will be for women to say, you know what I mean? I need to step into a group and I need to step into my own healing, whatever that may look like. Because there are definitely levels of it across the board.

Yeah. And I think even taking away the word addiction is helpful because if you have one instance of something that happened in your life and it's hanging you up to either not enjoy sex or to act out in a certain way, maybe it's not even outside of your marriage. So it can be really hard to see that there's an issue there. But if you. You know, if you have somebody who's been through trauma and then they're repeating that bad behavior or they're avoiding that behavior, then it can Be really hard to just label them. And so another good question to ask would just be, are there any areas of my life and my sexuality that I. I cannot tell anybody about? Not that you need to tell everybody about, but is there anything in my life where I. That's the one thing, no matter who it is, My husband, my best friend, my accountability, I cannot share that. And if you have something in there that has that shame wrapped around it, then that's a really good indicator that you may not be an addict, but you have some sexual stuff that you probably need to work out. Because we shouldn't be carrying that kind of shame.

That's good. I think of some things I've heard Jay Stringer say that, like those are those clarion calls, if you will, from your story, from your life, that are shouting, there's something wrong here, there's something wrong here. And I think that we need to start listening to those more. Yeah, that's good. Where is shame? If you can find shame, then there is probably a point there where there's some brokenness. It's good.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, Ashley, we've already mentioned it a couple of times, but over the last couple of years at Pure Desire, we've been using a resource for women called Unraveled. So how does the Unraveled workbook and the Weekly Tools as a resource help women find freedom and healing in this area?

Oh, well, it's really great because I think that we put. We cast it out in such a broad net that it really helps women just connect their own dots. And the women that are asking me about Unraveled, a lot of times I say you're going to get a ton just out of the resource, but just being in an environment where women get to freely talk about sexuality and sexual brokenness and all of that, because that's what you're going to learn so much from hearing other people sharing their answers. And what environment do you get to do that in? So even when I have a betrayed spouse that just finished Betrayal and Beyond, and she said, well, there's more. There's more sexual stuff I need to explore, but I don't really see myself as an addict, but there's some stuff there, you know, and, and, and just being able to, to be in that environment where it's an environment where that's what you're doing, you're digging down and you're going to try to wrestle with all of the skeletons that are in the closet or anything that's holding you back. Love, sex, relationship or porn. And just being able to have that environment. Kind of like what we teach with the kids as parents, you want to use resources, but it's not really always about the resource. Sometimes it's that you get to create that environment and create that conversation, and that's a place that you don't get anywhere. And so that alone is worth its weight in gold. But the resource itself is also great because has a very holistic approach with healthy tools, with sleeping, eating, exercise, because our mind, body, and soul are also interconnected. And so we really have to connect those dots, like, if I'm tired, am I more vulnerable to using things to cope the next day? If I'm in a funk, if I'm on the bottom of my faster scale, how do I get out of there? How do I work my way back up? And how do I work my way out of this? Or just. So those basic tools. And then also using a lot of testimonies so that women can identify themselves in the story, rather than saying, do you have childhood sexual trauma? You know, if we tell a story of several different women who experience sexual trauma in different ways, maybe one was abuse from an adult, maybe one was sexual curiosity with other children that carried shame, all different kinds of sexual trauma in children. And then a woman can say, I can really identify with that piece of the story. I really should explore that more. Or that stirred an emotion in me. And so that's another really great part of the resource as well.

Yeah, I think Unraveled, like so many of our other group resources are really just like, here's what's coming to mind. I read the Shack by Paul Young a couple years ago, and regardless of how you feel about that book theologically, there was a beautiful scene in it where he's tending to a garden and he's doing it with the Holy Spirit, and he realizes that what they've been doing is tending his own heart. And what the visual I'm getting as you were sharing that ash is just that unraveled, gives you the tools to tend to your own heart, to your own story, to your own experience. And it allows the Holy Spirit and allows community to also speak into that. And really, like, you're digging into your story to find, where are those unhealthy roots, where are those weeds? Where are the things that need to be cut out and addressed? And then allows fresh soil to be there for. I just feel like I'm beating this. This analogy up. But, like, at that point, then that's where new growth and new things can be planted. For your recovery and for your healing and for the rest of your life. And so I would just say that when looking at Unraveled, it's just tools to help you unpack your story and then also create health, not just in the areas of love, sex and relationships, but, but in your parenting, in your work, in your interrelationships with other people. Just tons of different areas. So the impact of doing something like this is far reaching outside of even the sexuality realm.

I think for a lot of people, when they think about a group, they maybe wonder, well, why would I want to go to a group for that? Because they think of a group like a traditional Bible study or book study, where basically we come together to learn about a topic, why it's so bad, why the Bible says it's wrong, why I shouldn't do it, memorize verses, I leave feeling really guilty and I go home to work on it by myself. And really that's the exact opposite of what's happening unraveled. I mean, yes, we want to understand the destructiveness of certain behaviors, we do want to know the truth of God's word. But the two aspects of the unraveled group is really one. It's a place to have those open, honest, loving conversations, like you were saying, Ashley, about things that need to be exposed. Because the reality is that when we're isolated, when we're dealing with this alone, things like shame, lies, self condemnation, they thrive in that darkness and in that secrecy. And so being able to get out what's on the inside with other women in that group setting, it just begins to deal with those shame and those lies so we can actually move forward. And then that's the other part of the group is the healthy, proactive side of what do I do about these. Let's not just get it out in the open and then leave it there like now. Let's replace it with healthy habits and healthy truths and healthy relationships. And so I think for any woman who's hearing like the group idea and has that traditional book study idea, like, why would I ever just go talk more about this? I already feel bad enough. It's like, no, no, this is actually to get out into the open and then as it's in the light, let God's truth begin to replace it with new actions, new activities, new relationships. And it may be a group format that's very different than someone's experience before. Obviously I haven't been through Unraveled since for women, but as you know, helping edit it, I read through several times and that's what I think I appreciated in looking at the material is just how it would do both of those things so well.

Yeah.

Yeah, maybe you should go through it. You and Charlie can start a small group.

That's great.

Unraveled for men. Here we go.

I just started Genesis process, which is going to be its own thing. So let's just give me some time. So Unraveled has the subtitle Managing Love, Sex and Relationships. And just thinking through this a little bit, what are some ways that, that women, maybe the culture, maybe the church, maybe us as individuals, we might overlook or not see some unhealthy places or some struggles in those areas when it comes to women? Like what would you say to someone who says, well, I don't really see anything that's unhealthy in those areas? What are the things we overlook?

Well, I really just would love to give them a list of the things that I've seen, but I've found that that's not helpful. It wasn't helpful when people did it.

You do this and you do this and you do that. That doesn't work for you. Okay, got it.

I just think asking good questions. And so what I usually tell somebody when either have a pastor or a group leader or even just an individual call me and say, I have no idea if Unraveled is right for me. I have no idea where I should start. I first want to hear a little bit of their story. And so if they're open to it, which they usually are, I say I schedule a 15 minute call and we'll say, let me hear some of your story. Because if they, if they don't really know where to start, then I need to be able to help them. A lot of women will say, I'm struggling with fantasy, I'm struggling with sexual anorexia or porn. And they, and it's really easy for them to know where to start if they go to our website. But others have no idea. They just have this unsettled feeling or their relationships keep falling apart. And so just hearing some of their story is really helpful because we teach them and unravel that, you know, love and relationship issues could be platonic or romantic. And a lot of times if you have struggle in friendships, you're going to have struggle in relationship, your romantic relationships too. Because what we're helping them get to the core of is where do you have trauma, how do you cope with pain, how do you interact with another person? And so that does translate across the board. And work relationships and in Friendships and romantic relationships. And so we help them even with some of those things and unraveled. Getting somebody to see why they don't enjoy sex is really a big challenge because that's really hard to connect that with sexual intimacy or intimacy dysfunction at all. And so just question asking, asking them what are the areas in your life, in your marriage, in your singleness that you're struggling with, what is it that you want to make better? And then when they can articulate that like, you know, I'm lonely or I feel depressed or I avoid intimacy or whatever it is that they're saying that they want help with, then we can use some of the tools and stories and testimonies from Unravel to show them that that could help. And that's usually how they get in there, is figuring out what they need first, what they want and then matching them with the resource that works. And so it could be betrayal and beyond, it could be unraveled, it could be connected, it could be counseling, but that's a good way to start.

One of the other areas that I think we often overlook and this happens for men and women, is that we're finding our sense of identity or belonging through a relationship with someone else, which essentially means I find who I am through you. And that's not going to be successful long term unless that you is our savior and God himself, that his creation of us, his gifts, his holy spirit that lives in us through faith. That's where identity comes from. But if I'm, if it's a woman who's married and as a mom or a wife or even someone at work, that that's what defines them, that's really become an unhealthy relationship that they will always be twisting or manipulating in ways, even if we don't see it, in order to get what we need to find our value, identity and belonging. And so again that that can be men or women, but that's an issue that can be really difficult to unravel, if you will, how we've, how we've created all of those connections into that and, and are trying to get from that relationship. So I think there's topics like that that from the get go someone might not realize is what they're going to go into. But as you really look at your patterns of thinking and what you've done with relationships, as those get exposed, I always think those are the aha moments where people say man, as we've said jokingly to people, like if you can use any kind of sexual brokenness as an excuse to get into this group. You'll be glad you did because it's going to get under some of those deeper issues that, yeah, you subconsciously know you have, but you've just never had handholds to know how to start dealing with them. And this group will do that. So find your way into the group and you're going to go after some of those deeper things. And like I said, that's just one of the areas I think, that is often overlooked.

Yeah. Something that's coming to mind. I was having a conversation with a friend just last night about just expectations. Like, I feel like in the church, you know, and people who know me well know that I hate the, like, happy wife, happy life kind of. We make these, like, statements to just generalize.

You mean you don't want to have a happy wife? I'm confused by this.

Yeah, you guys both suck. Leave me alone.

Oh, it's the cliche. You're saying you don't like cliches?

Yes, I don't like cliches. So one of the things that I think might be a good indicator that there's some unhealth, and I might be stretching here a little bit, but I think that if there's something in your relationship that you feel like should be different, whether it should be or not, there may be something there. Like, I really feel like our conversations should go to a deeper level. I really feel like our sex life should happen more often or less often. You know, I really think there, like, are things that we have these assumptions, and again, it could be right, it could be wrong, but I feel like those are things that we need to explore. And I think that unraveled and groups like this are a safe place to do that. You're smiling at me. Is there something you'd like to add to that?

No, I just was thinking of all the cliches. That's the one that I actually like. That's the one I like the most because I think there's so much truth to it.

Sorry.

When mom is happy, everybody's happy.

And it's not that it's not true, but I. I'm not going to get into it. I just.

But what you were saying was accurate. Yeah.

Yes, but I get what you're saying, Trevor, because even on. I think what our researchers do is it helps you understand your story, even if it's dysfunctional, even if it's still in progress. And so when you like what you're saying, when you have this longing for something to be different That's a good indicator. That's the canary in the coal mine. There's a sense there that something's off. But then also being able to get to the end and explain things like, this is why I avoid sexual intimacy. This is why I go for it when I'm. When I'm struggling and I need to medicate or cope or whatever. And so just being able to explain that, like, I may in the past have wanted more conversation with John or something like that, but now I can articulate and be content with where we're at because I can say I can understand that he just needs time because he's an introvert and, you know, A, B or C. And it's no reflection on where we're at. And so it's just working all those things out and getting to a place where you are okay with where you're at. You can understand it. Like, maybe I can't have a conversation with that family member because they don't go deep and that's okay. But that whole longing and stirring and wanting to change things is gone because you have this understanding. So you either get to the place where you are able to make it better and work, or you get to a place where you understand that somebody else may be different. And that's okay too. And you're okay with that because it's not a reflection on you.

And so which only happens if we can process through it. And that's what Unraveled will help women do. It'll help them process through and have those conversations.

So, Ashley, you've both led and been through Unraveled now a couple of times. So why would you suggest that women go through this resource or be in this group?

Because I'm on the same side as Julie Slattery. I feel like every person has sexual brokenness, and I know that word can be hard. I like how you were wording it earlier, Nick, that we just may want something to be better or worked out or, you know, we're not born into perfection in our sexuality. And so I just think, just like the hospital had me watch all these baby videos before they would let me leave with my own baby purple videos. Is that even legal? Like, is that even legal to say you can't leave with your own child, child until you watch these videos? I. But I feel that way with. With Unraveled. You know, we have all these things, like, you have to go through training before you can drive and you have to, you know, watch these videos before you can take your child home from the hospital and, you know, there's all these things, and our sexuality is so important, and it just ripples out in every area of our life, whether we have a negative or positive view on it. And so I feel like anything that takes you through, through this process of understanding your sexuality, understanding what it's supposed to look like from a Christian perspective, and working through any snafus that you might have in it is crucial. I think, like you're saying, Nick, use those master manipulation skills to get yourself in groups. Everybody should do it.

Well, I was thinking about a parallel of. And obviously I haven't let unraveled, but in leading seven pillars and conquer series groups now for over 10 years, you know, I'll have a lot of guys ask, well, does this group apply to me? Should I do it? And like we've been talking about, I'll say, if you can use your sexual brokenness as an excuse to go through it, like, just go for it. It'll be good. And what I would say is, I've never had a guy come back to me and say, I didn't think this group was for me because I my struggle wasn't, you know, that bad that it didn't matter where they were on the spectrum. The difference maker was actually their willingness to engage in the process. And what's been ironic to me is those that were unwilling to engage in the process were often some of the people whose behaviors indicated they needed it the most. And so I share that. Even for women who are thinking about unraveled, we're all somewhere on the spectrum of sexual brokenness. And even if you maybe feel like your behaviors or your struggles are way on the low end, but you still recognize you have something, if you go into the group willing to engage in the process with an open heart, believing that God wants to teach you something, my experience with the same kind of flip side for the men would be, at the end, you'll go, man, this was way better than I thought it was going to be. But if you go in and your struggles are significant, but you're not willing to engage, you don't want to trust people, you're only going halfway. It'll be a bad experience. So I guess just my anecdotal evidence to say that even if you feel like your struggles are minor, if you go in with an open heart and really engage in the process, you're going to just say, this was better than I thought. I wish I could make a guarantee. In life, there are no guarantees. But that's just really How I feel after 10 years of groups.

Yeah, well. And there's going to be parts that don't apply to everybody, and that's okay. We want to put a lot in there so that we cover as many women's issues as we can. And if you get to one part where you're like, that doesn't apply, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, like you're saying, just take and receive as much as you can out of it, because we can all grow. And when I'm talking to a woman, she said, I don't have anything that would make me qualify for that group. And I'm, like, running through this. Like, what about Bobby in fifth grade? Did that hurt your feelings when he broke up with you? Did you. You know, like, just trying to find anything relationally or sexually that could help them see that there's. There's stuff that you can get out of it. And so just eat the meat and spit out the bones, and you're going to get a lot out of it, even if there's several things that may not apply to you also.

Come on, Bobby, you're better than that. I know not to shame you, sir. So I think I. There was a mentor of mine when I was just out of college who told me that you can only take people to where you've been before. You can't lead people anywhere past that. And just this morning was have a conversation in group about that, that I can only help people heal to the degree of my health. And I think that there is also that piece of passing it on, helping other people heal. That's a part of this process, that whole thing, like, if you really want to learn, you should teach it that kind of thing, too, where it's like you're seeing it from a different lens. You're also engaging in this process with other people. But then also there's like, this built in accountability a little bit as you're helping people heal. So I think that this equips you for not just leading groups, but this equips you to be, as a woman, a better friend, a better mom, a better wife, a better leader in your sphere of influence, better at your job, better. Like, you just become a better version of yourself and can't remember who says it, but the idea that everyone wins when a leader gets better. I think that everyone in your sphere of influence wins when you get better as an individual. And so I think that. And we've said this before, every single woman on the face of the planet should go through this period. And that's today's episode. No, but, like, that's. But that is the reality. We believe that wholeheartedly that this is something for all women wherever you're at. Yeah, definitely. So anything else, Ash? Any other, like, final zinger you want to leave people with? I know this adds pressure to you because this isn't all the questions.

I was actually. I was so excited when I looked at the questions and I saw that we made it. That question wasn't on the bottom. I was like, oh, close it. It's true. No, I would just. I mean, I think I've said this a lot with the group podcast that you don't know what you don't know. I would have thought before I went through all this garbage with John and our addictions and betrayal that we were set, we were good. We didn't need anything. And. And that's just not the way it is. So if you're. If you're. If you're feeling hopeless and you're stuck and you're struggling and you feel like you can never get better, we promise you that they. That there is a way out of this and that you can experience healing from whatever it is you're going through. And then on the other side, if you feel like you're golden and, you know, you're just riding status quo in your marriage, that's. That's not it. That's great, but that's not a great place to just stay. And so. Or in your singlehood or whatever, if you're feeling good, you still could grow and you still could learn a lot. And I feel like that's the harder demographic to reach because it's like we say it's usually crisis that brings people in. But if you're unmarried, if you're a newlywed, if you're just maybe have those subtle things that. That keep coming up in your relationships, then just go for it and see what else you can get out of it and how you can grow.

Yeah.

You know, the thought I have is just knowing our audience that listens to the podcast and knowing we have, you know, many women who are on that betrayed side. And that's hard, and it's. It's really wrong, and they need help, and we're here for them. And that betrayal and beyond group is so powerful. But as they think about Unraveled, it may be kind of a mental shift where it feels like, well, wait a minute. That's like saying, I have a problem. And. And the focus has been on his problem and, and what he's done as appropriately it should be. But want to just encourage those women to maybe rethink their paradigm just a little bit. That to use the words of Peter Scazzero, who wrote the Emotionally Healthy Church, he says one of the greatest gifts we give to others is our self awareness. And in Betrayal and Beyond, you're really learning to recover, to trust again, to deal with your pain. But there may be areas of self awareness around your own issues. And it doesn't mean you're saying, well, I'm a bad person too, or I'm at fault or kind of that mental, well, this is his problem, not mine. Maybe to just release that whole conversation and say, I've got stuff I could grow in. I could give the gift of self awareness to my kids, to my spouse. And if you could see it from that more positive perspective that you're not taking blame or, you know, making it your problem, you're just wanting to be a healthier wife and spouse. And if you can see that, then Unraveled would be tremendously valuable. And so I hope for those women, they'll really consider this as possibly a next step in their healing journey and that it would just be something God uses to take them to yet another level.

Yep. So if you are interested in Unravel groups, you can go to our website, just go to pure desire.org unraveled and you can see you'll have the workbook and the weekly tools there and the kit. We also have online groups as well if you want to check those out for Unraveled. But we just, we just encourage you that if you have anything in your life that you feel like needs work in these areas, Unraveled is a great next step for you. So, Ash, thanks for being here. Thanks for leading these groups. Thanks for writing some of the resource too. Appreciate that.

Yes, yes.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. It's free. Share it with your friends and family. Write a review. It helps other people find the podcast. Lastly, never stop being health.