173 - No Shame Churches

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Happy Tuesday, or whatever day it is that you listen. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 173 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stembo.

Meow.

I am, like, ashamed to say that immediately my mind went to meet the parents with Robert De Niro and Ben Stiller. I'm not going to quote the best line of that entire scene, but. Yeah.

But, you know, the true point of that introduction is because we found out yesterday that we have arrived. Like some people look forward to fame, riches. You and I, because of this podcast, now have kittens that have been named after us. That's right. Somewhere running around a person's house, clawing up their furniture, is a little Nick and a little Trevor. So it's the first time in my life I've had a pet named after me. I felt a little more honored when my niece was named after me. My little niece Nicole is named after me. But, you know, a kitten for the podcast, I just. I thought that that deserved an introduction today.

I wish we recorded our intros on video so you can see how red my face is right now. I'll be honest with you.

This is.

I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, but this is the first thing that's ever been named after me in my entire life. And it's a kitten. And I'm both a little, like, weirded out, but also honored.

Yeah. Like we discussed, it's kind of a weird emotion. Like, yeah, like you. Super cool.

Obviously, you know, Trevor is going to be a much more fun and probably eventful financially cat than Nick, but I think that Nick's going to be a nice cat. He's going to do a good job, and. I don't know, now it's becoming weird.

Onto the episode.

Okay, so we have, I think, a really powerful episode today with Rodney Wright that we'll get to in just a minute here. First, subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Make sure that you keep up with it. We've got a lot of new content every single week that's coming, coming out. And if you are a subscriber, please write a review. It helps other people see the podcast. And honestly, some of the more meaningful things that I have read about our podcast, the impact it's had has been those reviews, and that's been really cool. Also follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram earedesirepdmi. And you can also consume our video content on YouTube. Just search pure Desire Ministries. And then also, we just want to make sure we keep coming back to it. Our Sexual Integrity 101 course is now available for digital and DVD order. And Nick, we've been working on this project for a long time and we just don't want people to forget the One on One is now here.

Yeah, it's been released and I'm excited. The church I attend is going to be using it for men and for women, running it at the same time, but in two different rooms so they can have very specific, you know, appropriate conversation among others of the same gender. And I think that's the value of it, is we see this as a tool that can universally equip, mention women, couples, parents, to just understand all of the various factors that go into the struggles we can have with our sexuality and pornography and sexual addiction. And, and that's what I love about it, that we said, whether you're someone who is struggling, married to someone who's struggling, or just a person that wants to help, you're going to get a lot out of this. And so I hope at some point all of our listeners will see it and then like our church, that they'll be able to use it with others and walk through a process of equipping and training people to be a part of the solution in this area.

Yeah. So it is available in digital streaming access on our website. You can order DVDs or a church kit that comes with a bunch of workbooks as well. You can order those@puredesire.org 101. Okay, so we love having Ronnie Wright on the podcast. We wish we could have him in person more than we do have them via Zoom, but Zoom. Thank Jesus for Zoom. Let's just. I know we're kind of sick of it at this point for some of us, but thank God for zoom.

Let's.

What a great thing. But we talked about today, you know, in our experience as pastors, being in and around the church for, for a lot of our lives, we talked about the idea of what it looks like to create a no shame church.

Yeah. You know, and this episode reminds me that really the kind of stuff that we're doing has the potential to change the world. And it's not just about stopping a behavior. And we've said this a lot. It's. It's about transforming lives and because of that, transforming cultures. And so today, as we get into the culture of the church and just how do we overcome shame? I think it's not just an issue about, you know, pornography or sex. This is an issue that is really at the heart of every church that they want and need to be able to look at. What kind of disciples are we producing? Those that, that feel like they have to pretend things are okay or people that truly enter into a process of being transformed are able to reveal the real stuff of their life. And, and in this conversation today, we get into what role could we play in that? Whether we're one of the pastors or leaders or whether we just show up and sit in church and maybe attend a small group and we might feel like, well, what can I do? I think what you'll hear today is, well, actually you can do a lot. God could use you as the voice. Absolutely. That begins to transform many others around you. So listen with an open heart and mind. And I believe this is really an impactful one. Yeah.

And it means a lot to us and we're excited for you to listen to it. Enjoy. Rodney, thanks for being with us today, man. Appreciate it.

No Shame Church.

No Shame Church. Going right into it. Well, today that's what we want to talk about. We want to talk about what it looks like to have churches that diminish shame. And we know that this is a really powerful step in changing the culture of a church, especially around the topic of sexuality. But what's cool is that when you change the culture in your church from a shame to a grace filled or a safe space to church, it's far reaching past sexuality. So it's something that is much more inviting for all topics. So there's tons of power and a shame free and a safe culture in our church. So that is what we're going to talk about today. So let's just start with this. No church, and I believe this wholeheartedly, no church sets out to shame their people. Pastor doesn't get up on Sunday and says, I am so excited the Holy Spirit is going to use me to shame these people to today. So let's give some examples of what a church might inadvertently do that shame their people. What are some of those things you guys have seen?

Well, you know, for me, I think you're right. Nobody starts out with that heart, but sometimes we just operate from what we've seen and what's been modeled for us. So you know that shame is all about the feeling of humiliation and disgust or disgrace because of an action and many times trying to motivate people to right living and right behavior. I think a lot of us grew up with kind of the shameful approach of, how could you? You better not fear based rather than love based. And so many times I think the cultures are just reflective of what they grew up with. And theologically, it starts with more about that we're worthless sinners and not speaking to the core of our being. Shaming operates in giving people a negative image about themselves rather than about the impact of their behavior. So the core of our being, I believe theologically is that starts in Genesis 1. We're good, very good, it says, and we're made in the image of God. So the truth of our being, in my opinion, is that we're worthy of love and we're good. But sin distorts that we know. But it's getting back to the truth of our being. And many times we try to motivate people out of fear or out of shame. As a starting point.

Yeah, I think we need to look at our theology and ask a question of, you know, where does shame come from? Because if we fast forward in Genesis to chapter three, the shame that Adam and Eve felt was as a byproduct of their behavior or their poor choices. And God in the story is not the one who is shaming them. God is actually the one by the end of the story that's covering and dealing with their shame.

That's good.

Who's helping them come out of it. And I think if we have that view of God, because I do think maybe inadvertently there are churches that feel like they need to use shame to get people to fall into line. But really that's not consistent with, as Rodney saying, with the heart of God. A couple of other things that I've seen or heard that I feel churches do inadvertently. It's when they do talk about human sexuality or sexual sins, and they'll refer to it as, well, if any of you struggle or for the few of you, and immediately kind of making it a unique, you know, minor percentage of the church that if anyone's struggling, then they feel like, oh, great, I'm, you know, one of the outcasts. I think also maybe leaders can have an assumption that if they don't struggle with it, that others shouldn't either. You know, particularly a pastor that maybe felt like, well, I had some temptations when I was a young adult, but I was able to just, you know, claim the power of Christ and walk away. And so why can't everyone just do that? And the assumption that if you're struggling, it's because you just. You haven't surrendered and confessed it well enough. And. And I think that can shame people who, In. In both my experience and the experience of so many men that I've been with in group, they would say they were. They were doing their best to confess it, to surrender it, to walk away from sexual sin or pornography or lust or, you know, whatever the topic is. And yet we're still stuck because of some patterns in their behavior and in their brain and the neurochemicals that were driving it. And. And if we don't see some of those patterns, then we inadvertently shame anyone that's struggling. And then the final one that I've. I've heard happen a few times is when we will lump categories of sins together and put in, like, pornography addiction along with a lot of other. What we might consider really heinous crimes of, you know, murder and theft and adultery and pornography addiction. And then, you know, the man or woman who struggled, you know, lingering on a lingerie site the night before is like, oh, great, I'm in the same category with the murderers. And.

Right.

So the last thing I'm going to do is admit that I've got that kind of struggle, because we do. We maybe put sexual sin into this high category that it's like, oh, man, if. Yeah, if you struggle with that boy, you've got issues. And I just think that keeps people in hiding because they don't want to be in that category, even if it's something they're actively struggling with. So those are a couple of things that I've seen and heard about that I feel produce shame.

Yeah, I agree with all that.

Yeah, I would say, too. And add to what Nick said, when we don't just have healthy, open conversation about sexuality as a part of who we are holistically, and that subject just remains silent. Then any kind of sexual challenge or question, it just doesn't go addressed. So automatically we kind of feel shame because nobody talks about that or there's a lot of silence or secrets about that.

Yeah.

And so that's kind of what creates that culture. And the only message we do get, Nick, is what you just mentioned. Right. That. That kind of negative. The negative aspect of that. So I think, I think inadvertently that kind of influences the culture of shame.

Yeah. And I think language is. And you guys know, being teachers, that language is really important, that if you are someone who is. And it's not this. We're not just talking to pastors like we're talking to anybody who has any level of influence in a community or a church. And so if you are using language when you're teaching or communicating and using the word you instead of the word us or we, that immediately is going to have a more shaming effect. So, I mean, you know, one of the. Really, the greatest teachers that I knew of when I was growing up in the church was listening to Mark Driscoll. I thought the guy was just, like, a stud, and he really is a great teacher. But as I have grown and gone through recovery and realized how much shame I grew up with in the chur, I started to realize that there was a difference between his teaching and a guy maybe more like Francis Chan, where the examples, they'd use the language they use. I heard Driscoll say you a lot, and I heard Francis Chan say us and we a lot. And over time, I've picked up on that. And so I think that that's one thing. I think another thing, too, is we tend to use examples. Again, when you're prepping a communication or an email or a message, and you come up with specific examples, like if you were to come up with an example in pornography and you're using it only in the context of mental, maybe in your mind, you know that it is both, and. But you're cutting down. You know, you don't want to expand or go too long on something, and so you just use one example. I would suggest that the language we use makes it gender neutral, especially in the topic of sexuality, because both genders can struggle with the exact same things. Yeah, it looks different, and maybe some of the wounds and the motivations are different, But I think that if we can stop saying, like, so when a man does this and a betrayed wife does that, if we can start to mesh the two together, that it's just when people struggle or when people are betrayed, I think that diminishes shame, too, for a lot of people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the fact that we're sexual beings at birth, and just having language like that, you know, integrating that the fact of our sexuality is a part of who we are as humans. It's not an act, it's a part of our humanity.

Yeah, well. And then when someone does have the courage to admit they're struggling or battling with something, I think the way we react can inadvertently create shame. If. And maybe we are a little shocked and we let that come out of, like, what were you thinking? Or, how could you do that? Or, man, this could blow up your marriage? Or, what a dumb idea. And maybe Those things even are somewhat truthful. But that creates the shame of, yeah, I know. And it's awful and horrible and versus if we can create a culture of, wow, I'm so proud of you for having the courage to be open about this. And we're here to help. And I love that you're asking for help. And what could we do to walk alongside of you? And there may be difficult consequences of their decisions. There may be hard stuff they have to face. It's not to in any way minimize the impact their behavior may have on their marriage or their career or whatever else. But if our response to someone's admission or openness is grace filled, that's going to make a huge difference in how others feel about potentially revealing what's going on in their life as well. Yep. So let's play this out a little bit. If a church is kind of caught up and maybe they've not really thought through this topic and they are inadvertently shaming people, what are the implications or consequences, Rodney, for a church culture that really is caught up in some of this shame culture?

Well, the consequences, it's not safe to admit mistakes, that mistakes aren't a part of your growing a process. And so again, you go back to silence and secrecy. And we know in recovery you're as sick as your secrets. And then sometimes the consequences or you know, that come from that is we're just, we become afraid of the church, we become afraid of honest, open relationships. And ultimately I think we become afraid of God because we're afraid of the church's judgment, people's judgment. And ultimately I think we project that on God, which I think opens up a whole other discussion about how we see the judgment of God. And I think there's two models that we get and many of our theological voices in church, whether it's Augustine or Jonathan Edwards or some of the other voices, you know, I think they looked at judgment through the lens of a courtroom as lawyers. So sin is, is a mistake to be judged. And, and so it's about the penalty of what you do. And so I think another way to look at judgment would be from a therapeutic model that you see our mistakes or our, our sin. And those are two different things, but our sin, let's say we see it as a disease to be healed, not something to be punished. So what if God was not a judge with a, in a courtroom, but what if God was a great physician?

Yeah.

And when I go to the doctor, I should welcome the doctor's judgment because the doctor is going to Tell me what's wrong with me. And his judgment is redemptive. He's going to take the tools and remove in me what's destroying me. And I think this is the, this is how I see the judgment of God. It's redemptive, not punitive. So if your culture safe and you make mistakes and it's safe to talk about and grow, that becomes redemptive. And I think discipline can even be seen through that lens. In Hebrews chapter 12, whom the Lord loves, he disciplines. But it's not to disable us. In verse 13, it's so that we may be healed. The scripture says it's for our well being.

Yeah.

So I know for me, some of the church cultures where I had fear of the consequences, I was, I projected that on God that God didn't have my best interest. He wasn't trying to heal me.

Yeah.

And inadvertently I just took that to say, hey, these are the consequences. You're the only one that struggles.

Yep.

The best you can by yourself. Isolation.

Yeah. I think, and this may sound extreme, but I think that when we think of things in extreme, it helps us see the direction we're heading. That the implication of a shame culture in a church, your church may grow and look good, but it will be extremely unhealthy. I think of the Pharisees I've been hanging out in Luke for a while and just how consistently they look so good on the outside and are just awful and terrible on the inside. And they get, you know, they get a lot of lashings from Jesus, you know, because of that. But I think that that's the implication is that our church will look good and will seem like it's a healthy church, but at its core it's rotten because. And this isn't, you know, indicative of every individual in your church, but this is the potential. This is the implication is that then you have a bunch of people who are saying it's all good and do the Christian, you know, tasks and duties and they're a good wife and a good husband and they're their kids go to church and everything. And that's great, but then there's no real transformation on the inside. You know, I just think of your church ends up becoming this very large whitewashed tomb of just deadness inside. And so I think, yes, that's traumatic and extreme, but also I think that that's an actual implication of a shame culture.

Yeah. I think the church becomes a place where we go to posture and pretend and perform because it feels like everyone has it together, and their lives look good. And so if I want to be a part of the group, I need to do the same. And then, unfortunately, we feel like we have to go somewhere else to be real, that we have to go to the counselor's office to get help. We have to go to the bar to tell our friends how we're really feeling about our marriage or our family or our work. And. And that's so unfortunate. It's like that that should be the church. That should be where we come together, that. That we're able to be real. And I really think behind that, that voice of shame really is the enemy, that it's something Satan want, because I think he wants to whisper to us. Look around at this room. Every other marriage is doing awesome. And what's wrong with you that you and your wife fight all the time? And it's because you're a worthless slob. And if you ever let them know what's really happening in your marriage, they won't be your friends anymore. They won't want you. And so it just further compounds the sense of, yeah, I'd better act like things are okay. And that's why, unfortunately, in so many churches, it's when the life or the marriage implodes that we finally hear about it. And when you do, you. You know, you find out in those stories there have been issues for years, and I think everyone feels heartbroken, like, why didn't you tell us? Why didn't you ask for help? Why didn't you come? And, well, the reason is because they didn't. Back to what you said, Rodney. They didn't feel safe. They didn't feel like they could be the one person to raise their hand and say, we're struggling. When the truth is, everyone could raise their hand and say, yeah, us too. Us too. Us too. But. But someone has to kind of break that barrier and create that space, or everyone just stays in the same. You know, what we heard Jenna Reimers must say. Plastic fantastic. Yep, I'm good. It's all good. Nothing to see here. And. And it really can be tough to break out of that.

Yeah. And I think Nick and Trevor, those are such good points. The culture creates us looking at everybody else's sin in the world instead of our own. So many times when we gather, it's who we're against out there, who's doing wrong rather than realizing none of us have clean hands.

Right.

All of us need help. And so the healthy cultures are the ones that say, here's how I'm Getting help with my disease of sin. Here's how crisis transforming me. Yeah, but the other ones and I think it's a good indicator for our listeners. You know, if you're always preach, if you, if the messages you hear, they're always about those bad people and what they're doing to destroy our world and not about inter reflection of, you know, our own hearts and what's going on in us. Yeah, I think that's a pretty good indicator maybe of the culture that you're at.

I would also add this and this is just my perspective. So if you don't like it, you can dismiss it. But my guess, my educated guess is that if your church is a shame filled look good on the outside church, you will not reach people of this world, non believers, people who don't follow Jesus will not walk into your church and they will not stay and they will not be open to hearing the gospel because we look like we have it all together and the world knows that we don't have it all together. That's just, I'll just leave that there. That could be a bomb that could go off later. I'm just going to leave it. But let's, let's kind of shift a little bit. So we've pastored, all of us, you guys have pastored for a long time, both of you. And so as you guys have been leaders in churches, what are some of the most impactful ways you've seen as a church leader to shift that culture from, from shame to grace?

Well, for me, the first thing is I've been a pastor that has lived in shame. So a real honest look in the mirror to say I still have shame about my story, about my sexual brokenness and you know, that's a part of my journey. It just is what it is. I was living in shame. Even though I had sobriety and healing on a certain level, I still had shame around my story. So I think just honestly recognizing I actually could be part of the problem here and what shifted that culture for me was when I others in my congregation shared their story with me and I found pure desire and I actually now had a resource to help people with. So I wasn't just, you know, exposing something but not knowing where to point them. And as you know, I got in that first group and as I got some training, part of that shift for me was as the leadership just means go first. That's the best definition of leadership I've ever heard. Go first. So it was taking the stage and saying, let me tell you about my sexual and my struggle with pornography and the journey God took me on through a therapist. And then if you're here, we would want you to find help as well. So the shift has to start in the leader to shift the culture, and others can influence that leader, but that's where the shift has to begin.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think it really begins with what's modeled through leadership. And if their lives are always perfect and glamorous and they're just tight with Jesus and perfect with their families, well, at least someone's got it figured out. But I'll go home and try to figure out my garbage on my own, because, boy, they sure have got it dialed in. But. And that. That certainly doesn't mean that every week a pastor should be getting up and saying, like, you know, here's my sins this week. Here's what I struggled with it. It may not be the time or place to share those current things, but that should be happening somewhere in the life of a leader. And then as it is happening, to reflect that in the kind of preaching communication you do to say, I'm. I'm not perfect. I've battled with anger, I've had issues with lust. I've worked through some pornography stuff. I. You know, whatever it is. And I think even being willing to own mistakes, you know, when a pastor can stand up and say, you know, this was a decision I made, and I look back, I don't think it was the right one. And I own that, and not seeing that as, oh, well, you can't be our pastor now because you made a mistake. But helping people accept that flaws and failures are part of humanity. And so I think it's just what's modeled. But the other thing that comes to mind, and I've heard Bob Vandermeer, one of our counselors and speakers, talk about this so well, that we really need to have a plan to help people. Because it's one thing if we have a heart, if we have the right heart for grace and it's okay not to be okay, and if we say it all the time, and then if someone raises their hand and says, okay, we're struggling, what do we do? And the church goes, well, you know, we'll pray for you.

Yeah.

Or we've heard this good book on marriage. Why don't you guys read this book? Like, well, you're not really helping me. You have the right heart, but do you have a plan? And I think that's the other side to look at, is if. If people start raising their hand to say, I'm struggling with pornography. Our marriage is in the toilet. We've got these issues. Is there a group structure? Is there a system? Are there safe people that can become mentors and coaches and friends along that journey? Because when there's an actual plan, I think people see that you've. You know, to use the phrase, you've put your money where your mouth is. You don't just say, it's okay not to be okay, but you show that when someone is not okay, you proactively help them. And don't just go, well, boy, we'll pray for you. So I think it's the two sides of the heart to help, but also having an actual plan in place.

Yeah, I think, too, the. And I like what you're saying about the leader. Here's just another side that I'm seeing as a leader, because I think that this will actually change some cultural things in the church outside of shame in that sense, creating that culture shift. But I have noticed or have seen and experienced and witnessed that, that there are pastors who don't actually have intimate relationships with people who go to their church. They have relationships with other pastors or with their staff. They're not actually known by their people. And depending on the size of your church, logistically that's not. You know, you're not gonna. Unless if you pastor a church of 50 people, it's a lot easier for 50 people to know more about you than it is for 5,000 people. I get that. But I think there's also this part of. I mean, the coolest definition I've heard of discipleship is just literally taking someone with you on your journey as you go and allowing them to just ask questions and witness, you know, what's happening and go through experiences with you. And I think that I personally would love to see more pastors do that, where it's like, I'm getting invited into my lead pastor, my head pastors, the people who are on the elder team, they're inviting me into their house, and I get to see what their life is like. Not just the, like, hey, we made a really fancy dinner, but it's like, hey, we're gonna have pizza and watch football and just hang for a bit. And I get to see their kids running around and, like, talking back to them or being, like, terrible, you know, and it's like, oh, you're a normal person like me. I think even small things like that relationally can make a big impact in the culture.

Yeah. And the reality is the Stage on our weekend services. The stage doesn't transform us. Intimate relationships transform us. And so I think if you're a lead pastor, the challenge could be to isolate yourself and you that somehow you have to have it all together in every area. And so I would just challenge every lead pastor. Are you in an intimate group? Are you in a place where you can share with anybody? Intimate? I don't care if it's whoever it is, but we have to learn how to be intimate. It's in relationship that we transform because we were made for those. And that's the beauty of seven pillar groups or unraveled groups or. You know, I remember our lead pastor, Mike was so excited that we weren't going to just talk about this. But now we had a process. Like you're saying, Nick, we had tools and resources and in our culture. At Lake City in coeur d', Alene, Idaho, in a five year period, we saw 200 men and women go through these groups. I mean, it was really amazing, you know, because we had a plan and we were pushing people through a process.

Yeah, yeah. Well, when we think of shifting the culture of a church, it's natural to go to the leadership and assume that they're the ones that need to create a different culture. But is it the case that only pastors and leaders can change or help shift the culture of a church? Or how could someone who's listening that's not a pastor or not on staff, what role could they have in helping their church become a more grace filled place?

I think the answer to that question is yes and no. So I think it's yes that the leader sets the tone. You know, the leader is leading a certain way. But I know in our congregation, two people that influenced me were Joe McCarthy and Ashley Jameson. Because I saw two people that their shame was healing and I witnessed it, you know, and their influence on me was like, I think these are good people. I love and value them and see their worth and value and their willingness to say, let's go help people. Are you with us? And their lack of shame and owning their story had a real impact on me, owning mine, which ultimately influenced our culture. Right. So if you're someone who is a part of a fellowship, but you're not in leadership, you can still lead by example. Right? Again, leader just means go first so you can influence your leader by living that transformed life without shame, offering your story in appropriate ways that are helpful to men and women to lead them down the journey of transformation. And I guess blame is the wrong Word. But I'm sure grateful for Joe and Ashley, you know, and the influence they had on my life.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think there's some truth to what you're saying, Rodney, that yes, people can have an impact, but somewhat is dependent on is the leadership open to that? You know, do they have a heart to hear and listen and respond? Because I think there are some cultures that they've done things the way they do it for so long that even with people maybe sharing their story, there may be a resistance to that. And I. I think in those situations, we have to continue to pray and ask God to move on the heart of our leader and. And then look for what is our role if we don't see any openness to a culture shift. And to that point, too, I think another place where we can begin to operate in this openness of grace and exposing shame is if we're in a small group or a circle of friends that we can inadvertently perpetuate that performance mindset in our small group. And there's no pastor there. There's no staff, but we get together with five other couples. And we know maybe that our week was a train wreck, but when the group goes around, well, how was your week like? Oh, it was pretty good, you know, pretty normal. And we know. We're like, ah, I didn't. I wasn't honest. Like, then we're contributing to the very things maybe we see as an issue. So there are places like that in our friend circles and small groups where we could say, you know, to be honest, I'm really struggling. I've been dealing with some depression this week, and I'm not sure what's going. I don't have answers. Could you guys pray for me? And let's. And I've seen so many small group scenarios where when someone kind of breaks the ice with that, if you will, the next person's like, oh, thank goodness. I was hoping someone else would, because, man, my week was terrible, and I'm stressed out. And it breeds that kind of openness and from kind of an organic, grassroots place, that kind of vulnerability and transformation that comes from grace. And those deep relationships can impact the church culture. So I think we don't want to just put it off on the leadership and say, well, my pastor will never do that or do this. Like, what are you doing? Because if you can do. If you will do what you can do, as Rodney shared, God can use that to impact the whole culture of your church.

Yeah, because a pastor cannot argue, you know, like, Rodney, you couldn't argue the healing that Joe and Ashley were experiencing. You can't say, no, that's not biblical. That's not like you're watching them transform in front of your eyes. It is, it's a beautiful thing. And so, and we say this all the time and everything that we put out is just pursue your own healing. Pursue your own healing. Because as, and this is something I've been starting to say a little bit more in my recovery, is that you can only help people heal to the degree of your own healing. You can't take someone somewhere you've never been before. You can give them tools and they can go past you. But as far as your leadership, you like, that's, that's what I would say, is that you have a sphere of influence. If you're not on. I mean, I go to a church, I'm not on staff, I'm not a pastor, I'm not a leader in the church. But I do have a sphere of influence of my friends and my growth group. And I, through my vulnerability, through my authenticity, through my humility, can, can influence and can lead there by continuing to just get healthy. I can be honest that I get really angry at my three and a half year old. And that's why I'm in a genesis process group as we speak. And I can be honest about that because I've allowed community and the Lord to heal the shame that I carry. And I also see the impact that when I start to have more self compassion toward myself and diminish the shame that's in me, that that enables other people to also diminish shame in their life. And so you have in some ways, and this may sound counterintuitive to what, or maybe opposite of what you guys are saying, I think that in some ways, as someone who is not a leader in the church, you have more ability to change and shift the culture in your sphere of influence than even your leader does because you're in the trenches with those people and they see your life on a consistent basis.

Yeah. What I hear you saying, Trevor, is there's no shame in admitting struggle. There's no shame in that.

Absolutely.

And I like the theological depth of the Velveteen Rabbit story where the skin horse, I think, says to the rabbit, you can't be, you can't be ugly to your friends if you're real, only to those who don't know. Being real is never ugly. You know, being real is just showing up and being seen. And there's no shame in admitting a struggle or a Need for help.

Yeah. So let's just, let's kind of go back to the leader pastor piece. And I'm switching the question a little bit just because through the conversation I feel like there are people who may be listening that are in a church right now and they can see there are some things in their culture that they don't like, that their shame is definitely present. So what are things? And you guys can answer as a leader or pastor or as just somebody who is in the church who just goes and is committed to a weekly community. What are some first steps to changing the culture? What are some initial things that we can start doing in our church to shift from the shame to the safe place?

Well, you know, the first one that comes to my mind is, you know, be an educator. So for instance, the Sexual Integrity 101 course of simply saying, hey, I know this is an issue in the world and in other churches, but I wonder if we might educate our people to help those other churches and people in the world. Sarcastic, wink, wink.

Yeah, right, right.

And at least, at least say to your leader, let's start educating people about this. Because I think the leader, you know, they're real enough to realize that there's probably issues and, you know, well, doesn't maybe know where to begin. And so the education piece could be a starting point. That's one. If you're a pastor too, invite your pastor to an AA group if you attend or an essay group. Right. I have people that are so afraid to admit their mistake in church or join a church based recovery group, but they'll go to another group outside. So it's just interesting. Again, that culture of shame is so hard. I just think every pastor should go sit in an AA group or essay group. I'll go with anybody in my congregation that wanted to go to an AA group or an essay group. And then we'd say, hey, we have groups like that right here and tools and programs that can help. But it's just getting in those cultures where there's not a shame and there's no shame in admitting your struggles. I think that's a best way to help those cultures change.

Yeah, I think you already mentioned one of them, Trevor, and that's the language change from you and those who and other people to we and us and our. Because of the power that has to include everyone in the conversation. I think a leader or someone preaching, they can't say often enough some version of the message. Rodney already said that we were made good and beautiful in the image of God. As sexual beings. And yet we were also born into a broken, sinful world, which means all of us as sexual beings, have had our sexuality impacted by brokenness and by sin. And it's not a question of whether or not we are sexually broken. It's a question of whether or not we're aware of it and have done anything to deal with it, and whether that has led to behaviors that are more external and need to be dealt with or more just internal shame or issues we deal with. If we could just say that over and over, because I don't think the first time, most people are really going to believe you. Yeah, my pastor's not actually a sexual being. Like, somehow God made this version of super Christians that don't really have sexual desires, and he was built with a.

Chastity belt from the womb. Yeah, right.

But I think you keep saying, like, we were all made sexual by God and we were all born into a fallen world, and so we all need recovery and restoration. That. Just saying that. And then I think the other thing that comes to mind for me is the stories that we tell. Yeah, we tend to have what I call a chicken soup for the soul approach to Christian testimonies of, you know, things were good and then they went bad, and then I met Jesus, and now they're good, and we put this nice little bow on it, and everyone feels good inside. But that's not our story, because in our story, we're in the middle of the pain, the depression, the addiction, the hurt, the whatever. And so I think. And not to get people up in front of your church just to bleed or emotionally vomit on everyone, but to be able to tell stories that people are in the midst of and say, you know, you guys are in the middle of this medical crisis. How are you holding on to faith in the middle of your recovery journey? What are you hearing? What are you learning about God? And. And I think you can help craft those stories in a way that it's not, you know, people telling too much too soon or getting into, you know, stuff that's not appropriate in a public setting, but just making sure that every story isn't that perfect little bow on the end, that it communicates we are people in process. And it's not always going to have a nice, tidy ending. I mean, how many times have we interviewed the couple that went through an affair and made it, and we get to celebrate, like, oh, what a work of God. But how often have we interviewed the person that ended up divorced and just asking them, how are you? How Are you holding on to God? How are you finding your identity in Christ and not your divorce and. And letting people wrestle with that? So I think the stories we tell and then the last thing that comes to mind is just consistency. Because I do think when we delve into some of this hard stuff or we. We have a weekend, we talk about pornography, there can be a feeling like, whew, we did it. That's over with. And, you know, then it's checked that six more months for a year. Like, we don't have to go back to any of that messy stuff now we can get back to our nice, you know, yeah, plastic fantastic and everything's great. I just think regularly we need to find ways to just be vulnerable, to be real, to tell stories. Because that's what I think really begins to shift culture. When it's consistent versus if it's this once a year, kind of unique weekend, then people will see it as. That, they'll see it as unique, not really as a part of your culture. So a cultural thing is something that's just regularly present.

Yeah.

So we've got to keep coming back to these themes over and over. Yeah.

I think what's coming to mind for me is just this is something, I think that I even struggle with that I assume that if I was on the stage saying something in front of a thousand people, that it would have more impact than just sharing my story one on one with someone else. Because I don't know. I don't know if that's going to have more impact or not, but we are. I think this is maybe something inadvertently taught. And I think you alluded to it, Rodney, that, like, what happens on stage is like, what church is or like what's most important. And it's like, well, actually, what about that, like Tuesday afternoon coffee you have with someone where you talked for an hour or two and yeah, you talked about football and you talked about, you know, how you hate emails at work. But then you also started to talk about what's really going on in life and you shared some story and were vulnerable. You don't know. Like, you know, you talk to people who are evangelists and it's like, think about the person who witnessed to that evangelist. Like, you have no idea the level of impact that your life can have or that, that your story can have in someone else. And, you know, I think of Joe McCarthy just decided to come up to Rodney and say, so, hey, what are we doing about pornography? Because this is my story and I just need you to like, help Me figure this out. And now, Rodney, your life is different. Right? Your life is different now. Your ministry is different. Lake City is different. Ashley's life is different. Now think about this for a second. Rodney's life, Joe's life, Ashley's life. Only three people at Lake City, their lives are now impacting even more people's lives. And now there's just this amazing cascading of healing and recovery and grace, and there's just a lot of power in that. And I think we downplay it and we need to. Not anymore.

Yeah. Yeah. Vulnerability is always attractive. And the kingdom of God is relational at its core. So a stage is a one side relationship. And I think we just have to be careful putting all our eggs in that basket. There's a place for teaching, there's a place for singing, but it can never replace intimate, authentic, vulnerable relationship, because that's what we were made for. Intimacy. Yeah. So I couldn't agree with you anymore.

Yeah. Because Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount, which we read and preach on, but then he went and slept around a campfire with his guys and he walked the streets with her and he prayed with them and.

Yep.

And those moments, you know, we don't have as many, like, recorded talks just personally between John and Peter and Jesus, but I. One day I'd love to get to in heaven. That's my hope. Like, we get to just watch what happened around the campfire with Jesus and Peter.

Yeah.

Right.

But what did you say at Zacchaeus House? Right. When he called Zacchaeus out of the tree?

Yeah. How long. How long were you there? What'd you have for lunch? What'd you guys talk about?

Why did you build tents at the Transfiguration on the mountain? Why'd you do that? That was weird.

Yeah. So, guys, let's wrap up this episode by talking a little bit about the positives. What is the outcome or the fruit that comes when we're consistently building a culture of grace and standing up and defying shame.

Healing, maturity, health, attraction. I think that's fruit that comes from that.

Yeah.

People seeing their worth and value as humans, people wanting more of that because that is impactful. It opens up their heart space. Churches are becoming a hospital where people are finding healing and wholeness. And nobody has shame walking into a hospital with a broken arm. They're happy to be there. That's good because somebody's gonna help them. Right?

Right.

Yeah.

If you got a. If you've got a problem with your body, you can't get to that Doctor fast enough.

I am in the right place.

Yes, I thank God.

Yeah.

You know, Nick, I woke you up in the middle of the night one night because I had a bad eye problem.

You remember that 3:00am I certainly do, Rodney.

Yeah. In Nashville. And you reflected Christ quite well. It was a test. And you.

Oh, good.

I was like, nick, you got to take me to the doctor. Right.

I think the Christ in me was a little grumpy about it, but I was, I was willing. I had a willing heart.

Yes. But those eye drops brought healing and they brought relief to my body. And so just think about what can happen.

Yeah, yeah. I think the. Ronnie, what you're saying too is it's not because, again, like, I think your church will grow in number if you are a grace filled community. I do believe that. But what I also believe is the depth of growth in more people, exponentially more people in your church is what's really gonna grow. Because people know that they can be honest about stuff. And I think it was Bob Vandermeer said this, that you can only work on problems you own. And so if you're able to own your problem, then you can work on it. And as you. What's cool about a safe and grace filled place is there tends to be humility there too. So the leadership will go outside of what they know to get training and they'll find other resources. And that competency piece that we talked about. So not only is someone willing to admit, but then now they also have the tools and now the depth of their. Because this is what's great, is that it's not just what do I know about Christ, it's also what have I experienced with him. That starts to happen and then that becomes. You become a holistic person. And when you have a whole lot of holistic people, right. More people will become holistic people because of that. So I just, I see the growth, maybe not in number, but the growth into who God has created these people to be is going to happen.

Yeah. Well, and we don't want to talk about this as like, this is the coolest church growth strategy, but I do believe you grow in number because like Rodney saying, people in our world are in pain. They have spiritual eye problems that are bothering them every single moment and they don't know what to do about it. And if they hear about a place that says, we have seen people freed for life of this pain, it's like, wow, I think I want to go there. And it drew people to our church when we started getting real and when I was real about my story, because they heard it's safe to talk about pornography and sex and all this stuff. No one else has shown me any idea of what to do with it. There's a place that they're talking about it and that didn't mean we were perfect. That didn't mean we had all the answers or suddenly we're the, you know, this master strategy of church growth just, we're just trying to be real. And that, that is the word that to me is the fruit or the benefit of a grace filled church is that it's real. You know, I would rather have one real dollar than a million dollars of monopoly money. Because the Monopoly money, it's, it's not good for anything except playing the game.

Totally.

And if you're not playing the game, it's worthless.

Yeah.

A dollar, it has value. And I think in our spirituality, in our relationships, in our walk with Christ, just living in this world, we need things to be real because playing the game doesn't get us anywhere. And so when we're grace, when we're facing our stuff, people can grow and find the kind of life and the wholeness that they've been looking for all along.

That was. Yeah.

All day long on that. Nick and Trevor, what you said, the unexposed is unhealed.

Yeah.

So if you're afraid of exposure, that fear is keeping you from healing. Exposure in the scripture was about healing, not, not, you know, condemnation.

Yeah.

And then, you know, I think, Nick, can we just give people permission to be honest about their environments they're in and say if your environment is not healing, you ask God to lead you to a different environment. And I don't mean you have to necessarily change churches, but you can. Well, you can't really change church. There's only one church. But, but you might want to find some other people who are being real. And this is where our seven pillar men's group that I'm in, this is church. We're not doing something to help the church on a weekend. We're being the church. We're showing up and being real. That's good. And to watch these pastors just begin to realize, guys, what if you actually led this way? What if you now took and led a group of other men? You think you're the only one that struggles in this arena or another arena. And you know, I've quoted often Dr. Henry Cloud about his quote about a judgmental church and a healthy recovery group. I just think there's a lot of truth in that, you know, a grace filled place is where we transform.

Yeah. So one of the things that I know Nick in his book, I mean you wrote a book really on this stuff called Safe. We'll make sure that's in the show notes too because it is a great resource as you're really exploring this idea and this topic. But I think that one of the things you say in there is the idea of being a person of grace is what helps create your place of community to be a culture of grace. So you first have to start with yourself because that's, believe it or not, who you have the most impact over on a consistent daily basis. And everyone said amen. And that also sucks. But this stuff is possible and we need to pursue it personally and then allow God to use as we shed the shame, allow that to God to just use that and the people around us. And as we've talked about, if we can do this in our communities and in our churches and then really reaching out into the world, there's tremendous impact that can happen. And once you start thinking about the souls that are being changed, not just the number of people who say they follow Jesus or not or go to church or not, those will change. People's lives and souls and eternities will change. And so there's, we could just talk about it forever, but there's just tons of impact.

If I could throw in one more thing, it comes to mind, and I've used this idea before, that I will not be tomorrow anything I'm unwilling to be today. And I think sometimes as Christians we have kind of this great blue yonder idea of, well, one day I will be this wonderfully deep spiritual person. And yet today I don't even take time to pray or read my Bible at all. It's like, well, you're never going to be that tomorrow unless you're doing it today. And so down the road we want this beautiful, grace filled, real church. And yet today we haven't even taken the time to call someone that we're close to to admit that we're struggling with something or in our small group, we, we ignored our issues and we just kind of said, yeah, I'm doing fine. We, we went with our kids and we shamed them for a mistake that like if, if we're caught up in living a shame filled graceless life today, this is the place to change it in our homes, in our conversations, in our small groups, because we will then become that tomorrow when we make those little decisions today. So I think that's my final encouragement. Just don't, don't think it's some huge plan that you've got to work towards that one day will be graceful. It's like just today, start being real with your friends. Start being honest with your spouse. Start communicating with your kids in a way that's not shaming but is inviting them into being people that make mistakes and that you're walking with them. And those are the little things that become that future of grace that we want to have.

Yeah, guys, this is a great conversation. Thanks for. Thanks for doing it. Rodney. Thanks for joining us, man. Appreciate it.

Yeah, it's. Healing is a lifelong journey. Get on board. Don't ever get off the train. That's right.

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