174 - Boundaries In Recovery

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 174 of the Pure Desire Podcast Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo. Robble. Robble. Do it again.

Robble. Robble.

Flintstones.

It kind of sounds like that. I may not be, you know, doing correct voice pronunciation, because it's been many years since I've heard this, but that is actually what the Hamburglar would say in the old, old McDonald's commercials when he would steal hamburgers. Yeah, he'd say, robble, Robble.

So question about McDonald's. For me, it was Ronald McDonald growing up. Were they at the same time?

Yeah, that was Ronald McDonald and the Hamburglar and a couple of other characters that, like, if you look up their pictures, they're kind of creepy now. Like, it would be a really good scary movie theme to just have those characters.

Ronald McDonald looks like Pennywise from this.

He's frightening. He looks like the giant red shoes. I mean, and the Hamburglar was kind of weird. And then they had this kind of circular blob. It was. Yeah, I'm sure in the 80s it worked, but now it's kind of frightening.

Oh, my goodness. Well, let's move on from that point.

Yeah.

Okay, so a few things. Subscribe to the podcast. Just don't wait anymore. Just do it. We would be happy for you to visit us each week. That would be awesome. We're on all the major platforms. Give us a review. Also helps us reach more people. Helps people see the podcast. Also follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagramuredesirepdmi. And then we're also on YouTube. Just search pure Desire Ministries. So we're gonna keep coming back to this just because people need to know if they haven't heard sexual integrity 101, it's now in the world.

It is. Would you like me to say more before maybe this is the first podcast they've listened to. And so they're getting to know Pure Desire. And that's actually one of the reasons we produced it, because we want to help people get to know the process of healing and recovery that Pure Desire has been using for almost three decades now. It's really teaching the eight essential ELE that Ted and Diane Roberts began in the mid-90s and helping people see why it's not about just trying harder or praying away this problem that we need to Walk through a system of healing and change. And the great thing is the sexual integrity. One on one video course walks people through in eight sessions, these foundations. And so whether you're the one struggling or married to someone who's struggling or just want to be a part of helping young men, young women, others in the church find this pathway, it's incredibly equipping and educational and I think would be helpful for everyone to watch.

Yeah. And it can be done on your own, can be done in a group, small or large group. So definitely something that would reach you. Just go to PureDesire.org 101. Okay, so we had Dan and Jen Howie on, which is always great. We love them and love the dynamic and the communication they have together. But we entered into a messy area of the recovery journey, and that is setting boundaries in recovery.

Yes, it's an area that can our joy. That's the best connection I could find. No, it is this gray area of like, okay, we're walking into some recovery, but there are still these issues of trust. Or I see him on his phone and I feel like he's isolating and should I tell him to get off or should we have a bounce? It just. It's navigating that that I think can get a lot of couples pulled right back into disagreements and fights. I hope today, as we walk through some strategies and principles, we do help create some effective plans of how to move forward. Because I think that is the goal of Healthy Boundaries. It's to remove the gray areas so that a spouse knows, here's what I'm focusing on, and the other spouse knows here's what I'm working on and don't have to be continually looking at the other trying to figure out what they're doing. See, I thought it was a great conversation and we had a lot of fun.

Yeah. And I just. I want to say this too, before we get into it, that there may be some things that you hear that may be triggering or may be emotional for you to hear. But. But just understand that we're all at a place now in our recovery where this is still fresh, but we're not on the early end of recovery. And so we're talking about it in a way that there's a lot of perspective and experience that's been in it. And so we just hope that you don't feel like we're minimizing your experience or the pain that's been caused by unwanted behavior or betrayal. So just enter it into it with that perspective, and it will be A beneficial conversation. Enjoy. Dan and Jen, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Thanks, Trevor.

Thanks.

And Nick, just like right now, take a stab in the dark. How long do you think we were talking before the episode?

Actually a couple minutes.

At least 10?

Yeah, at least 10.

Just lengthy pre episode banter.

There was. Some of it was burgers versus sandwiches. Others were apparently presumptuous statements and questions, looking for clarity, finishing each other's sentences. That's true. Okay, so the reason why we don't do all that is because of boundaries. We want boundaries. For the podcast today. That was a professional transition. Everyone. We are talking about a topic that gets tons of questions. Jen, you were just sharing that this came from one of your groups having just a bunch of questions on this. But this is not unique to just one group.

Oh, no.

Everybody in recovery from addiction and betrayal thinks about this, this idea of boundaries. And so we wanted to ask you guys, really, as a couple, who's gone through it? You've been through counseling, you've been through group, you're now leading groups. So you have this experience, both personally and as group leaders on just this topic. When it comes to specifically relationships inside of recovery marriage, this could also be, you know, boundaries and dating. But we just wanted to really draw from your experience. So right now, just so you know, we're not looking to you as a clinician or as an expert. We're just asking you to share your experience because it's valuable.

Thank you.

So just a simple start. Can you define what a boundary is from your experience and then also why we need them?

Yeah. We view boundaries as a guideline or a rule or limit that I will create or he will create to identify reasonable and safe and permissible ways for other people to behave toward us. Right. And so. And then it also includes how I will respond when someone passes those limits or even how they respect those limits. So essentially it's. It's really setting a standard for how you want to be treated. And essentially, boundaries are essential. Healthy boundaries are essential to a healthy relationship. So the goal is to keep love in and to keep health in and clear. Boundaries help us to remain connected, and it's a mutual form of respect for one another.

I think boundaries are born out of a need. So rather than an arbitrary boundary of don't talk to me that way, what do I need? What's being communicated, or what do I actually hoping to get out of you talking to me? Um, so if I don't, if I don't know what I actually need, I Can't really set a healthy boundary. So they're really thoughtful. And most. Most people have created dance steps that we start making arbitrary. This irritates me. Don't do that. When really, maybe it's a good boundary, maybe it's not. But if we really delve into how does this protect, how does this serve a need, and how does this protect our relationship and protect me as an individual so that I can remain healthy? Because that's the ultimate goal is it allows me to move towards health.

Yeah. If you think about where we create boundaries in our world, you know, we have fences, we have handrails on steps. It's a way of keeping us in that safe or healthy place and away from something that is dangerous, unhealthy, or potentially very disastrous to us. And so we. We need to maybe start there and see them as their. Their primary function is to be a good thing that keeps us moving in a good direction. Now, there are ways and places that boundaries have been applied to us or enforced on us that can make us see them as a negative thing or as limiting or restrictive. But if we can start there to say, these are meant to be a way that I can own what I'm responsible for and keep myself moving towards health and growth and progress, then that's a good thing. I want to invite into my life. And then consider, I think, the point of this podcast. How does that work in a relationship with other people and in particular in a marriage where what I need as a boundary might not be what someone else would like to have or understand. So how do we navigate that? And I think we'll get into that in a little bit here.

And that's why I'm so. And we are having this conversation the other night, um, we're in the same group at church, and we were talking about that idea, which was a. I think I knew it, but I never heard you, like, I've never heard anybody say it until you said it. The idea that a boundary is not keeping bad things out, it's keeping good things in. And so I think that that's my hope for this, this entire episode, is that we're operating off of that idea that this is trying to protect and as you're saying, create more health for longevity and keeping good things in, rather than just a no, don't do this type of perspective. Yeah.

Yeah. So when we. We think about boundaries, there comes this situation where in setting them, particularly as we're talking now about a marriage where there's a spouse who has had particular Struggles with, you know, acting out sexually or pornography. And. And that spouse, as the one who is struggling, often doesn't respond well initially to boundaries that a spouse might be setting. So in your experience, Dan and Jen, why is that?

Well, if you're setting a new boundary, you're creating a new dance step or some sort of situation that I'm not comfortable with, and most of the time, I'm doing whatever it is that you don't want me to do anymore or feel like is a boundary. It served a purpose for me. So now I have to wrestle with, well, why is that being taken away? I remember one particular one that just.

Was not anticipating this.

Examples. Here we go.

Here we go.

Wow.

Okay.

At the beginning, my wife said, you know, you work with people, including women, you don't have to have a discussion beyond business. And I'm like, what you mean? I'm, like, not going to say, hope your day goes well, and how's your kid doing? Because I know your kid was sick.

I'm envisioning someone saying, hi, Dan. You're like.

And specifically, like, in an email form. Like, what's the point of the email? Well, the point of the email is to finish business. And I was like, well, that's just rude. I can't imagine being that rude to them.

And.

And. And it. It was a struggle for me to, first of all, understand it, second of all to implement it, and third, to get comfortable with it to where now I'm like, yeah, whatever. I don't need to. There is no reason for me to engage in conversation with a woman who's not my wife in a private conversation that has nothing to do outside of. That has anything to do outside of business. So it is difficult in the beginning because we've had a. Yeah, for me, that. That made me feel good when I could ask someone about their day and they feel valuable, so they're. Or I feel valuable. Something like that. So, yeah, it's just a whole new set of dance steps, I guess.

Yeah. I think what I'm hearing, and this is the word that's coming to mind, is loss. A boundary will always include some sort of loss, whether it's like a freedom or something like an actual thing I used to do. Um, because. And I know for me personally, I. I love when people take away my options and freedom to do things. Condescending tone. Right. Like, I don't like that. And so boundaries are gonna include loss. So there is going to be. And I don't think it's bad that there is A negative emotional response to that, how you use that, how that emotional response plays out is, is that's up to you. You get to decide. But when someone says, you had this and now you lost it, it's okay to be upset or irritated or maybe even grieve the fact that you lose it. But there are things that we lose and we grieve all the time that are actually for our benefit.

Just because we're triggered doesn't mean that it's that we're looking at something that's bad. It just means that there's something that's undealt with inside of me and I need to address that. Yeah, that's good.

And I think we're getting into something that I wanted to address because it's. It's worth noting that typically why a struggling spouse doesn't respond well is because they are having boundaries set for them. And really that's not an appropriate way to use boundaries. In a healthy way of speaking, a boundary is something I set for myself or that within a relationship, within a conversation maybe we agree on together. So even in a situation where one of the spouses has been struggling, I think it's best if they could come and say, when you do X, I feel Y. And so I'm going to need to choose to do Z so that I can be in a place of safety. So if the spouse comes and says, well, you know, you've. You've messed up with, you know, pornography, and so now you don't get to have a phone and you don't get to have a computer and you don't get to watch tv, and well, those aren't really boundaries, those are punishments. And it's being enforced on a person which really changes the dynamic of the relationship to more parent, child or authority subjugate of like, I'm going to tell you what to do to get you in line, which is really not the foundation for a healthy marriage. Now, when one of the spouses has been struggling, they need boundaries, but hopefully they're also in some kind of recovery and they're willing to see the need for boundaries and be open to the input of others that maybe see things they don't. But I think going back to the question, that's why they're often not responded to well, because the person can feel like they're being punished. They're just an unfair consequence. They're being told what to do. And so if you're the spouse or the friend in that situation trying to encourage a boundary, I think that's just what you need to be aware of is how can I communicate my needs in this relationship? How can I communicate what I need to feel safe and then invite them into a conversation or into a process of considering what boundaries they could create around their behavior to help facilitate a better relationship. So these are not easy conversations we're talking about, but it's definitely the kind of thing that can help create long term health in a relationship.

Yeah. And the example that Dan used earlier, I wasn't requiring him not to talk to someone, so I couldn't enforce or modify his behavior. The conversation that had taken place previous to that was some other needs that I had, you know, told him about. And what I was trying to understand is why do you have this need to have conversations with women outside of the office or outside the business atmosphere? And, and that's really the kind of the conclusion we came to. So just want to clarify that we would never want to impose behavior modification. God gave us, you know, you know, the right to choose. And so we, we choose accordingly. And God honors the choices we make. So.

So we've talked about all three of them so far. But what do you guys see as the difference between a need, a consequence, and a boundary? And basically when should we use one over another?

Okay. I think that a need is something that is material, it's physical, it's mental, it's emotional, it can even be spiritual. A boundary is something that protects those needs. And then a consequent is a result of the action that is relating to the boundaries that you've set. So they all three really work together. And they're all necessary, but generally in sequence it would be, I'm going to identify my need, I'm going to build a boundary based off of that need. And then the consequences, which we always assume are bad, there's good consequences to our choices. So the consequences really just the, just the action that, that takes place after those are said.

So just to like maybe help think through this a little bit more, let's use that example and let's say that, that you know, you set a boundary. Let's say you set a boundary. Dan, you're not going to talk to, I don't want you to talk to other women outside of business. So let's just walk through it. What would be your need? What's your need at the core of that?

It depends on where I am in the process. Because. Because. And we'll get into this a little bit, you know, needs being based off of emotion versus being based off of our values. So at the time that I had set that, quite honestly, it was based off of emotions. So there wasn't initially necessarily a very healthy boundary because of my motivation behind it. Ultimately, what I needed from Daniel was an understanding that he had an awareness of how he engages in relationships to other women. It really wasn't about controlling his behavior at work. It was the need to feel safe knowing that he was working on his awareness about how he was connecting with other women outside of relationship with me.

So the need is safety. The boundary then becomes your interaction with women at work. And then the consequence, like, and again, this is just trying to help flesh it out. What would be the positive consequence of keeping that boundary?

Emotional intimacy and trust. So when I know that he is working on his awareness, when I know that he is, he is. Even if he's not executing with 100% accuracy, when I know that he's working toward it, I can trust that. Because right now, my world is upside down. And I think I mentioned this before. There's this emotional vertigo that you kind of go into, and the only thing you can really hold on to are the facts. You know, are his actions lining up with what he's saying. So when he went, that was the positive consequence of him coming back and saying, I was aware that I did this today, or I was aware that I did that. That is telling me that brings me emotional safety and relational intimacy. When I know that my husband is honoring the fact that I Right that we are both working towards awareness together.

And yeah, go.

I just say, I like how you said that, Trevor, because it brings up that consequences are both positive and negative, that our behaviors and decisions always have consequences. It's just if we're following healthy boundaries, the consequences are good in terms of a growing relationship, rebuilding trust with my spouse, creating healthy habits for my own life. And we want to focus on what. That's why I'm creating boundaries is not to limit my freedoms or take away my, you know, whatever it is I want to be able to do. It's to see I'm choosing instead the healthy outcomes that I probably won't get to if I continue to make these old choices. So that I think really can help couples frame the conversation of. Let's cast the vision for the positive side of if I know that, you know, to our example here, the conversations you're having at a private, intimate level with a woman are only with me. That's going to strengthen our relationship. It's going to build trust. We're going to have More fun. Well, well, then the other spouse, the Dan in the story can be like, oh, well, I like that. That's a good outcome. Let's work on that and be more proactive about creating those healthy boundaries.

Yeah, I think oftentimes what it feels like I hear in group is a guy saying, my wife hit me with all these boundaries, rules, basically, rules. And I can't do this, and I can't do that, otherwise she's going to do this. And what gets lost in there is what are the boundaries intended to do? What's the need that they are fulfilling? And we rare. It's hard to have those conversations, especially at the beginning of the healing process, because we're just trying to figure out our needs. We know what triggers us or what makes us angry. And oftentimes it doesn't. Even if it's said, it's not. The communication doesn't necessarily stick. On how is this actually going to help? All I see is I'm being told what to do. Like you were saying, even if I agree with it, I'm like, well, I hope you enjoy it that I'm doing what you say.

It's not a. It's a messy process.

It's not easy.

It is, it is. So when people ask this question, how do you respond? Because I know that this can happen. Kind of the back and forth of, well, well, if I'm not doing this, then you can't do that. So should couples be setting boundaries and consequences for each other? And should they be the same for both spouses?

First of all, boundaries are meant for us. I cannot set a boundary for somebody else. So, yes. But when it comes to should the consequence, should the boundaries be the same? So, you know, maybe your boundary is you have passwords, I have passwords. No, my boundaries. Wait, I don't. Now I'm. Now I'm talking in circles, flipping it around.

I know what the boundary is.

I know. Here we go. So when it comes to sharing each other's passwords and having access to our social media accounts and whatnot, we get this question a lot. Should I have to share my passwords with my spouse? I'm not the one that did the betraying. He did. Therefore, I should have access to his. Should he have access to mine? Obviously, this is a question that the two of you have to figure out what my answer is. And what your answer is can really vary because boundaries will be based off of needs. So. But that. That being said, what is the goal? Like, why not? If it's good for Him. Why? Why? Why isn't it good for me? But what is the motivation? Are you looking for safety? Are you looking for control? So that's a.

Sit on that for a second. That's a really good question. Ask that question again.

So when we're. When we're looking at our boundaries, are we looking for safety? Are we looking for control? So if I want to have access to my husband's computer, is it because it brings me a sense of safety, or am I really wanting to go in and check in and police and investigate? Ultimately, that's actually not healthy for me, which often will lead to hyper vigilance and some other behavior that isn't healthy. So really, when it comes to answering that question, Nick, it all comes back to what is the motivation? Am I. Am I setting a boundary because I have an issue with safety, or can I dive a little bit deeper and see if there's a little bit of control that I'm looking to have? Because often when we're in trauma, we want to have control because nothing feels like it's in control.

I think to this question, there's the two sides of. We can have boundaries in a relationship, just as a healthy part of having a good relationship versus boundaries that are created because one spouse or the other has a significant issue or breach of trust that is needing to be recovered from, like an addiction to pornography or an affair that those boundaries have. A very specific purpose of trust has been broken. Our relationship is fractured. And in order to rebuild, one spouse may have additional things they're choosing to abide by or to follow in order to rebuild and regain trust. On the other side, though, you have healthy relationships of things that, like, any reasonable couple that wants a healthy relationship could follow together. Like, for my wife and I, we don't ride alone in cars with people of the opposite gender. We wouldn't go out to a meal or to coffee with someone of the opposite gender. We wouldn't, you know, have personal Facebook conversations with some of the opposite gender. Just. And that's not because of a trust issue or she's a bad person or I did bad things.

Right?

That's just like healthy relationship. So I think sometimes you maybe as a couple, need to have different conversations of what are we doing to recover from a breach of trust and an addictive behavior? And then what are things we're both agreeing to enter into of, like, hey, my phone is not a private thing to me because you're my spouse, and if. If I can't let you see what I'm doing on my phone. There's a problem here. Whether it's about addiction or struggle or not, it's just, let's talk about what would a healthy relationship be? So I think seeing the two sides of the conversation can help.

That's good.

Yeah. I think one of the things just when thinking through this, like, if this is how I could see it playing out in a negative way that you say, okay, here's the boundary. This is what makes me feel safe. And then, Dan, if you were to be like, well, then you can't have conversations with guys at work. And that is reactionary boundary, where if you maybe felt like there was a lack of safety, you didn't feel safety personally before that boundary was set, then maybe that's something you circle back to. But if it's something that all of a sudden, oh, yeah, you know what? Now I have a boundary that's like, okay, you're reacting. You're not actually doing something that helps with that. Yeah. So if our spouse. And this happens, this happens. And. And I, I. But before I even say this, it happens that there is this response, and it happens that the betrayed spouse does do this as well. If there are boundaries that are set that the struggling spouse or the one who is being asked to respect this boundary feels that the boundary is extreme, how do they best respect that? And I feel like I need to kind of flesh it out just a second, that there are betrayed spouses, and there are spouses in general who maybe haven't been betrayed that do set extreme boundaries. That is a possibility. But as someone who is a loving spouse and someone who's in a relationship with someone, you want to try to respect those, and you want that safety. So how do we do that if we feel it's extreme?

Yeah.

I think the word that sticks out in that question is feels. Because our feeling can betray us. A lot of times, what feels extreme is actually healthy. I don't want to say it.

That's good.

It's extreme. But that example we were talking about felt unnecessary. It's like it's not used for. I'm not in all cases using it to, you know, feed an addiction. So that feels extreme or unnecessary. In retrospect, it was the right thing. On the other hand, if you're saying, like you were saying, you'll never have a phone again, you have to live with a dumb phone till you die, well, that's. That's not helping. I mean, I can't live in a world I can. I don't have to Live in a world without a cell phone in order to be healthy. That's not so I, for me and for groups, we talk about them. We talk, Talk with trusted people, talk with people you respect about some of the boundaries. And if it feels extreme, get a, get an opinion, talk to someone you trust.

It's like, it's where group comes in. Huge, huge, huge.

I can't tell you how many times a guy said, my wife told me I can't do this. And I'm like, well, what do you think? And he's like, well, it just seems unfair and okay, well, why do you think, why do you think it's okay or what's. And just talk through it. And then by the end, sometimes it's like, all right, there's some wisdom there. And sometimes it's like, well, maybe you can go back and revisit and ask this question and maybe you can set a different parameter, whatever. So, you know, it's. This is where it gets really sticky because I've seen both sides of it where guys are like, that's just too much. Where it's clearly not. And then sometimes what's being asked is, it's like, well, that's not. I can tell that's not for you. That's not going to. That's not helping your marriage. So it's hard.

I do think we want to be cognizant of, is this just a punishment, because as we've already kind of alluded to, that changes the relationship. And it's not going to be healthy if one spouse is in the role of punishing the other. And so I think in kindness and fairness, you may want to try to come and say, hey, this just feels like I'm being punished. Can you help me see how this is actually helpful or necessary? But the other side of it that comes to mind with that question is when a boundary feels extreme to me, it's usually an indication of the severity of my wife's emotional state that I need to take seriously. It's like, well, if that's what she legitimately feels she needs for safety, I need to look at that and go, this is bigger than I thought. Because that's what she's asking. And she's, you know, wants to have a good relationship. She's generally a kind hearted person. So I think if we're the spouse that's been struggling and has that feeling, we need to really look at it from their side to say, maybe this is how serious it is to them. And I've never taken it that seriously. And that's why it feels excessive to me because I'm not fully empathizing with where they're at. And so it's an opportunity to have kind of one of those oh, wow moments of I didn't realize how much this meant to you. And if that's what you need, I'm willing to do it because I want you to be able to move back to a place of emotional health and let's figure out how to get there.

I think you bring up a really good point because ultimately, that's what the betrayed spouse is really wanting. I want you to see me, I want you to hear me. I want you to affirm what my experience is. And while she may not have the word, they may not have the words to articulate it. I just need you to know where I am and meet me where I am. And so I think you really bring up a very valuable point. It doesn't mean that those boundaries will actually always stay there.

Right.

And it doesn't mean that the boundary process is flawless. Sometimes we make boundaries based off of trauma. So giving room to process through the trauma, then we can move on to healthier boundaries that bring us closer to one another.

And we see it. When relationships are really struggling or when someone is probably, you know, moving towards divorce, it's often because the spouse is saying they don't see it. They don't understand what they're doing. They don't recognize how painful this is. They. They're just not open to what I'm experiencing. And so I don't know how to trust them. Versus the opposite of there are really high levels of boundaries that spouses have entered into because they see just what you're saying of I need to help my spouse move out of this place of trauma and reactiveness or we're never going to have a healthy relationship. So for a time, if we need to be in kind of some extreme triage care to just let their brain relax and let their spirit kind of get off the edge and then start to have better conversations like, let's do it. And that does communicate a lot to the spouse who says, oh, I think they see it because they're willing to help me move towards that better place.

And what's striking to me, though, is also you have to understand based on where you're at in the process is also going to be really, it's going to impact this conversation where you're at at the beginning of recovery, when disclosure happened, or exposure, whatever you, you know, experienced comes out, they're gonna feel really extreme upfront. And that honestly, as we've been talking about, it's not bad that they'll feel extreme. But just understand that maybe then I think you said this, that it's not gonna be this way the whole time, like, things will get better. But just know that these are the really difficult steps at first so that we can get to that better place. And so also understanding that if I'm in year, you know, 10 of recovery and me and my spouse are in a better place, and they're like, well, I really think you need to get rid of all electronics. And actually I need you to work from home every single day. It's like, well, if nothing happened, then we need to talk about that because that seems like a reactionary boundary rather than actual based on a need. So I think that just keeping that in mind will help.

That's good.

So let's talk about that a little bit more. If we are concerned that maybe our spouse is creating some of their boundaries that are too extreme, or maybe we're wondering if, you know, early in recovery we're being too extreme and maybe need to make some adjustments, how would we know and how would we go about maybe making changes to our boundaries?

So boundaries can usually be based off of two things, emotions or your values. So our emotions are meant to be informative. They give us information. They're not meant to be our decision makers. Our values are what help us make healthy decisions in our life. They facilitate pondering and thinking and then making our boundaries based off of that. So if I value myself, I can identify what my needs are and I can speak those needs, and I can base my boundaries off of that. If an emotion is extreme, there's a good chance that your boundary is probably at risk for the same. So if you're experiencing intense emotions, that would not be the time to set a boundary. Or if you do, there's a good chance it'll be extreme, hard to follow through with, and will likely lead to some disconnection. That doesn't mean you can't have emotions, extreme emotions while. And enforcing boundaries. But if your boundaries are based off of your values, then there's no room for subjectivity there. As much as you possibly can have that scenario because it's based off of my need. And when I speak those needs, I know that I'm probably not acting in extreme ways. It's when my emotions dictate my needs that I'm. There's. There's a chance there. There's a Chance that it could be extreme and guilty as charged. I don't know if I'm actually being charged, but. No, you're not. But I know that I have set boundaries. When I feel out of control and my emotions are high, I'll set boundaries and they become ineffective. But when I'm, when I'm, you know, communicating my, my values to my husband, suddenly there's room for conversation and, and the energy in the room just settles down a bit and we can start to engage in a conversation based off of that rather than emotion.

Yeah, I think it's hard to, as the receiving spouse of a boundary. If you think it's too extreme or even if, maybe even if you know it's too extreme, how do you respond? Like if Jen says, you know what, you need to stay out of the kitchen between the hours of 9am and 4pm because I'm walking through there and if I see you, I'm going to get triggered and I can't deal with that. And so that's, that's what you have to do.

Clarified. I have not said that.

Yeah.

And it was a hypothetical.

Oh my gosh, Jen.

Yeah. It wasn't the kitchen.

Just so everyone knows I'm not crazy.

Right, Right.

So something like that where you're like, well, I don't know how I live life by not being in my house.

I have to use the bathroom.

Right through the kitchen. Yes.

Well, yeah, sorry.

Yeah.

Right. So I mean, at that point now you've got, this is where boundaries become difficult and it becomes, this is now a community. Hopefully you have a community to help you work through this week and say, look, I feel like maybe, maybe we can figure out a different way that I don't trigger you by just being seen. Or maybe we can work something else out. But also, this can't be a forever thing. We can't make this a non negotiable. Let's talk about how to move through it.

Yeah. And again, you mentioned the group. That's where if I am the struggling spouse and I come to group and say, okay, this is something that my spouse put in place as a boundary. I think it's extreme. And you ask the group, what do you think that then you're gonna get really good feedback. You're gonna get feedback, you know, on the scale from like, bro, that's crazy. Like, that seems way. And here's why. And what's, what's interesting is that your group members are not emotionally invested in that situation. So they're gonna be a lot more Objective. Because you could also get the, like, bro, that's pretty normal. Like, you know, me and my wife been doing that since day one. Or like, you know, this, this, this. Like, this is not abnormal for her to want this. Right. And so I think that you're not. That sounded condescending. Your group members would not be condescending in that moment. There is that, but forgive me, but I think that you're gonna get that range, and that's really helpful because then you're able to talk it out with someone who's not that spouse.

Right.

Because that tends to not be a great time to have those conversations. Like, hey, can we argue about the boundary that you put in place? Like, you can process it with someone else and then come back with, I think, a better emotional state, some outside perspective, and then can enter into those conversations a lot better.

I think a really good question to ask if we feel a boundary's too extreme is to say, if I follow this boundary, what's the worst that could happen? Because if the worst that could happen is, like, I could lose my job, or we could lose our house, or, you know, real things like, okay, let's look at other options here. But what so many of us find when we ask that question is the worst that could happen is I would feel inconvenienced and I wouldn't like it. It's like, oh, if that's the worst that could happen, maybe I better give this a go. Because if that would be helpful to my spouse, then I could figure it out. And I'll have reactions of guys in group that are like, you know, they. They kind of respond emotionally like we're talking about. It's like, well, if I can't watch TV alone at night, what would I do when I can't? Like, there's. Then there's nothing to do with, like, nothing. Like, have you heard of a book? Have you ever worked on a project? It's just you've got such tunnel vision of, this is what I want to do, and I'm holding onto it that you can't see. Well, what's the worst that could happen? Oh, I might have to figure out a new way to interact with the Internet. I might have to figure out a new way to appropriately use media or the tv. And that's a good thing. So just asking that question, what's the worst that could happen? And if the worst is that you would be inconvenienced or uncomfortable, then maybe that's what you need, because that's often what Creates change.

That's good.

So if we do set boundaries in our relationships, it's easy for, I think, the receiving spouse, if you will, of that boundary to feel like you're placing a limit on your love based on this. So you'll only feel loved. And it's interesting, there's two dynamics there. You'll only feel loved if I do this, or you will only love me if I do this. So how do we set up boundaries? And there's only so much we can do because we can't control the other person. But how do we set up boundaries in a way that doesn't communicate? There's a limit to love.

Well, speaking your need equates to intimacy being fully known. And when I do that, I am protecting a barrier. Right. So boundary protects love. It's a safeguard. It protects me from bitterness. It protects me from animosity. It protects me from. It can protect me from miscommunication. So all these things benefit me. They benefit you. They benefit us in relationship to one another. So ultimately, if our goal is to be seen and to be known and to be loved in that process, then there is really. We have to start to remove this idea that boundaries create limits on our love for one another. One of the questions that I had from one of my group members was, should our love have limits? Like, where is the limit of my love? Like, I forgive and I forgive and I forgive. Where, at what point? And I think we'll probably jump into that a little bit. So. So while. While boundaries create and protect love, you know, they're ultimately, the goal is to. To be in that safeguard zone.

And so, yeah, well, I think it might be helpful to think of it in terms of perhaps we can say our love doesn't have limits because we do want to believe in an unconditional love, that we would continue to love someone even after being hurt. But our relationship may have limits or our ability to be emotionally healthy may have limits. In fact, that's our story. Ten years ago, my wife saying to you, it's not that I hate you, but I hate the way you make me feel. And I don't know if I can stay around that much pain. So she wasn't saying, I'm limiting my love, but she's saying, I'm limiting what I can handle and stay in this relationship. And so to your question, Jen, there are limits to what a spouse should have to endure and somehow stay in the relationship. It's like if you're continuing to make these destructive, hurtful choices, I may need to remove myself from the home, or I may need to ask you to move out or make this change. Not because I'm limiting love, but because I'm making a statement of I can't handle, and our relationship can't handle perpetual abuse, perpetual pornography, this intrusion of trust, that there are limits to that. Because we're human beings, we're limited. So even in a, you know, kind of a godly spirit, if we want to say, I'll never stop loving you, we might have to say, but I may need to stop living with you. And even if we're in a healthy way holding on to a biblical standard of not divorcing, if there's not been an affair, like, we might say it's not about divorce, just about finding healthy space. So there is a balance there where I don't think we have to tell someone, just whatever it is, you got to put up with it. There's no limits. Like, you're human. And if it's not changing, if the pain is continuing to happen, there may be limits on what you can handle, even if there's not limits to your love.

Thank you for wrapping that up so nicely. I feel like I just threw something out there and you just really nailed it with that. Thank you.

Yeah. But again, when I'm thinking about this situation, again, this is where a group is so essential. Because when I'm in a conversation about a boundary or something that's tense in my marriage, it's hard for me to enter that conversation. Like, even if we go to sleep and wake up the next day, you have that baggage from the day before. Like, that carryover emotion has not gone anywhere, and so it's still tense. And again, that's where. If you can go get perspective from your group, if you can go have a conversation, get perspective, be able to process verbally out loud as well, and really get everything out there, then you can enter maybe that next conversation a little bit more emotionally present, aware of what's going on, have this outside perspective that helps me see things clearer. I don't think that can happen without. And maybe it's not a pure desire group, but somebody. Somebody that you can go to and have that conversation. Because I don't think that you will just, like, out of the blue, sitting there in your, you know, negative emotions, come to this conclusion. Okay, here we go. You're going to need that community and that voice of reason from the outside. So I would just encourage people that if you're in this situation and you want to have that conversation this is not limiting my love for you. Might be good to have that outside conversation before you enter into that. So there's a little bit of, like, removal, if you will, from that experience.

And I think one of the hard parts is early on, especially with boundaries, early on is most guys in group have a perspective of I am as good as my image. And if someone's saying, if you do this, I will do that. That says because I did that, I have, you know, I'm. I'm a bad person. I'm flawed. I'm. There's a lot of shame in that. So until. Especially for me, I'll just speak for me until I got to the point where, hey, that's a boundary doesn't reflect on me as an individual. It affects. It reflects on my behavior and how. And is an indicator on how healthy I am in my individuality. So it takes some time to transition from what a boundary says about me.

Well, I think it reveals the truth of what Jesus says, that in trying to hold on to our life, we can lose it. Because I've seen many, and I say men in group because that's my experience, that they're trying to hold on to some right or freedom or image, and they don't see they're actually losing their marriage and their kids and their family. And. Yeah, so there is a dynamic there of. In letting go of our rights and what we hold on to, we actually gain a lot more in the end. So we started to get into this topic, but let's talk a little bit more about it. That what if we're a spouse? That inappropriate ways is setting boundaries, communicating our needs to feel safe, to feel respected, to feel trusted. And those are continuing to be violated and the boundaries aren't being respected. But we don't feel like we have grounds for divorce. We don't feel right about divorce. What options do we have? What should a spouse do in a situation like that?

This happens all the time. I hear this. Every single group I have, I set a boundary and he won't respect it. What do I do? What are my options? So a few things that we. That we talk about in group is. Prepare to have a discussion. Well, first of all, are you safe? Okay, so we're. I don't. I want to be very intentional here. Do you feel safe? If you do not feel safe, then you need to call a friend, family member, call the police or whatever. So this is assuming that you feel.

Safe, like emotionally, Physically.

Physically, yes, Yes. I mean, ultimately, yeah, we're dealing with emotional Safety issues here. But yeah, if you fear for your safety, just keep in mind that you need to reach out for help. But assuming that there is some safety there, you need to prepare to have a conversation outside of the circumstances, of course, maybe set a time, set a place where you're going to sit down and reinforce. Okay, so I came to you with this, with this need or with this boundary that I have and you're not really respecting it and this is the way that this is taking place. This is what not respecting it looks like I need to then reinforce. Maybe there's been a miscommunication or just what I say and how he's receives it can just be very different. So reinforce what your needs are. But you need to decide what your next steps are going to be and then you have to have a plan in place. So they always say no plan is a plan to fail. So if you know you have to have a plan in place, what are my next steps going to be if my boundaries aren't being respected? So I say scenario might be we're having an argument and you say I need to walk away from this argument. I'm triggered. I need a process, need to walk away. And you walk away and they're still calling from the other room saying what they need to say. That's not really respecting someone's boundary. When you say I need some space, I need to walk away. So what does a spouse do in that moment? If you don't have a plan on what to do, you are more unlikely to be reactive rather than proactive and in your approach towards protecting your restoration. So I think that's probably where I would start.

This one's, I think, I don't know what else to add to that. I mean, just like you said, having a discussion outside the emotional moment is key in understanding why it's important and really asking if you're the, if you're the offending side of the, the boundary pushing, bringing to your group like I have a trouble. I have real trouble following this boundary or respecting this boundary. Why Help me understand why I'm. Why it's so difficult. And you know that's it is difficult. We are totally limbic in those moments and we're literally responding out of all our wounds and experiences. And, and this is a long process and it's an indicator that I have work to do.

Yeah, I think this to me is communicating the importance of understanding the why of the boundary or the need that's being met by the boundary instead of just viewing it as something I put in place so I have control. Like if, and I know this even outside of this arena, if my, you know, my wife says, when you, when you do this, this is how it makes me feel. So could we. And in all intensive purposes, it is a boundary that's being set in place. Will you process with me? Like, for me, I'm an over share and over communicator shocker by everyone who's listening. I don't know why I said that doesn't matter. But for me, I'll process it a bunch with people outside the house first and then I'll bring, and I just realizing this recently that I'll bring kind of the decision to her sometimes, you know, and she hasn't communicated this a bunch, but there have been times in our marriage where she'll say, like, it feels like you're not including me, or it feels like I'm not one who you're processing with. And this makes me feel. So therefore I make decisions or a boundary that I would talk to her first about things and then ask, is it okay if I have these conversations about these issues or topics? And that is something that I understand the why. And because I love my wife, I want to honor that. And for me, that makes the boundary not, not softer in a sense, because it is still something I see value in getting other perspective, but it allows me to be more compassionate toward her, empathetic toward her, and makes the boundary seem less extreme.

Yeah, and ultimately brings you together in relationship, which is the goal.

These are again, hard and messy situations. But I think it's appropriate to talk about amplifying boundaries. So if, you know, if I have a boundary line on my property and the neighbor's dog keeps running across it, I might choose to build a fence. Now if they continue to like throw garbage over my fence now, I might need to call law enforcement. And if they continue after that to do something else now, I might be talking a lawsuit. And that's not because I'm a bad person. It's because I have a boundary that I feel needs to be respected. And if it's continually not, it needs to amplify. And so it could be that a spouse who has said, I have a boundary about pornography in our marriage, because if you're viewing pornography, I don't feel safe. And if the spouse ignores that, she might say, I, you know, I communicated this makes me feel unsafe. And so because you're continuing to act out, I don't feel safe having sex with you. And maybe they continue to act out, say, well, now I don't feel safe being in the same bedroom as you. And if they're continuing to act out, I may not be safe in the same house as you. So it's amplifying because they're not recognizing. They just continue to violate a boundary that makes you feel unsafe, unhurt, unvalued, and there can't be relationship if that continues to happen. Now, on the other hand, as you brought up Jen, I think we need to make sure there's not empty threats because that's not going to help someone. We really do need to be able to ask ourselves, what am I willing to put up with and what am I not? Because if that boundary is crossed and we don't, we go, oh, well, okay, let's move on. Then it's communicated. That's not really the boundary. It's a desire, it's a want, but it's not really a boundary. If I let my neighbor's dog run in my backyard because we have a good relationship and I like his dog, well, I don't really have a boundary there. It's like, well, your yard's my yard, big deal.

The shotgun's still in the garage.

Yeah. But if it really bothers me, then I need to be clear, like, no, that's not okay. And so I think that's the hard work spouses need to do, which might include going to a counselor and asking for expert advice and saying, what do I do here? Because these aren't easy things to figure out alone.

Yeah, so this is another just simple question. So in you guys experience both as, you know, a couple who's gone through this and then also as group leaders, is it reasonable for spouses to set non negotiable boundaries?

Yes.

Great.

We do it all the time. I mean, you do it without going through this process. I mean, I have a non negotiable that Jen doesn't know about. Poisons my food.

All right.

Yeah, which is why I cook all the time.

No, not in the kitchen though, because that boundary.

That's right. I can't get through the kitchen after four. Bring it all together anyway. So, yeah, so I mean, we have non negotiable boundaries all the time. So it's totally reasonable. You know, like you were saying, viewing pornography, there's not a point where I'm like, yeah, let's revisit and maybe it's, it's cool for you to view pornography. Yeah, that's probably not, hopefully not going to happen.

So, yeah, you know, non Negotiables are the required. Are the things that are required for you to stay in relationship. So they're not generally open for discussion or for any type of modification. Right. These are the things that. That I absolutely have to have in order to be in relationship with you. So people will say, well, how. Why'd you stay together with him? You know, once a cheat, always a cheater. You know, why. How did you do that? Well, my requirement to staying married to Dan had everything to do with him pursuing his healing. So my non negotiable wasn't, can he execute this healing process flawlessly? My non negotiable was, is he pursuing despite the moments of unsuccess and is unsuccessful? Word.

I don't know.

That's unsuccessful. Yes, I'm okay with. All right, two words.

We just made two words.

It's great. Anyway, that was my non negotiable. My non negotiable was, you must continue to pursue healing, and we will do this throughout the rest of our marriage together. And so without that, I would not have stayed. I wouldn't have stayed. And so we have to have non negotiables. I mean, there's some very obvious legal non negotiables that we all probably could point out very easily. But, yes, to answer your question.

Well, some of this is to ask the question, like, what makes for a relationship? And if someone has to be in relationship with me no matter what I do, and they just have to put up with it, I'm not sure that's actually a marriage relationship we're talking about anymore. Because part of what makes a marriage a marriage is my choice of a commitment to love you and your choice of a commitment to love me. But then understanding that what makes it love is that I choose to bring that. Not that I'm forced to and that I'm forced to put up with no matter what happens to me. So some of these questions are just about what makes for a healthy relationship. But I do think a spouse, again, needs to ask, where. Where are those boundary lines that. That I know? If you have another affair, I will move out. And I'm not just threatening like, that's. That's what I will need for space and protection. And that's not negotiable because that's the severity of that behavior. And we need to be willing to stand up for ourselves and make those statements because I think it helps the other spouse recognize, oh, I do want to have a relationship with this person, and I want them to choose to stay. And so I Want to choose to not do those things so that we can have this relationship.

That's a good maybe reminder just to say that like boundaries are put in place. And I think you said this, I'm just going to reemphasize it. Boundaries are put in place so that we stay in relationship. That's the point. The point is not at its root, it's not that I'm going to have control or that I can then be, you know, the puppet master to you. This is because I want to be in relationship with you is why I'm setting this up. And I think it's just good to say that again. Just a reminder.

Yeah, always.

So back to me, something that can come into relationship that is a little more subtle is some unseen spiritual abuse. What do we do if we experience that when it comes to setting up our boundaries?

That's a really tough one because someone with a history of trauma can be used to a high pain tolerance or just a high tolerance of experiencing abuse that they may not even really be aware of. So just because you can tolerate it doesn't mean that you should. So abuse is abuse. So if you, if you have, if you are suspecting that maybe you are experiencing abuse. Generally when this question comes into play in groups, I suggest that they call pure desire and get that free 15 minute evaluation with a clinician. Because I as a leader or I as a friend, I as a sister probably do not have the skill set it needs to walk you through an abusive situation. But I do have the skill set to help you recognize that it may be a thing in your life. And so we have a responsibility that if we are suspect to spiritual abuse from our spouse, that we encourage people to move towards clinicians that are able to walk us through that scenario.

Yeah. And I think as I understand this question or the idea of spiritual abuse, we get guys saying it's not biblical for my wife to demand this or.

To hold out on. You.

Know, we are married, she cannot.

Her body is mine.

Right.

We are one. What I want. And I think, you know, honestly, when we use the Bible as a club to get what we want, whether it's in our relationship.

Yeah.

And we hold that as our, our force. It definitely doesn't encourage, you know, closer relationship. So yeah, you know, we have to be careful on how we're using the scriptures and it happens. I mean, and it's pretty obvious and apparent when we're using that to that degree.

I mean, I think the principle is true throughout that how you use like. Because that Is true that like in a marriage, the husband's body is his wife's, the wife's body is her husband's. That is a biblical principle. But how that principle is played out or communicated can make it wrong. Just like me saying that, like, my job is to rebuke you in relationship. In scripture, if I did it every single time and there was no grace or relationship, it was like, dan, you screwed up again. Stop it. And I kept doing that over and over again. That's actually not helpful for you or healthy. And I think that I'm using a biblical principle, the right biblical principle, using it in a wrong way. And I think that that's what we see is what you're describing is okay, sir. Yes, you are right. That is the principle. But the way that you're playing it out, you're bashing your wife, and that's not good.

It can be helpful in trying to identify spiritual abuse for a spouse to consider if I took the spiritual part out of this, the Bible, or maybe whatever words were used against me and just heard it through the lens of like an example, a spouse says, well, you're just weak in your faith, and that's why you don't trust me to be on my smartphone. It's like, well, if I took the faith out and just said, well, you're. And my spouse said to me, well, you're just weak. That's why you don't trust me, would I be okay with that? It's like, well, no, that phrase would not be okay outside of a spiritual context. So it's probably not okay within the spiritual context. We just try to use some spiritual language to justify being demeaning, putting someone down, manipulating and controlling them. So I think that's a helpful way that if a spouse would say it's. It's demeaning, it's manipulative, it's controlling. Whether it's spiritual or not, it's unhealthy. And to maybe come from that tact back to your spouse to say when you. Again, when you do X, I feel put down and demeaned. And so I need a boundary of Z, because I can't be in a healthy relationship if I feel unsafe, unheard, unvalued, and just. I think that's an approach we can take.

Yeah, don't just call your clinician. Call Nick his email address.

Yeah, that's good. Luck with that.

Okay, so as. And Jen, as you walked through this process, because I think that there can be some similarities in how they look. There's A There is a difference between codependency and betrayal trauma.

Yeah.

So how have you seen in your experience, the distinction between the two? And then how does that impact setting up boundaries?

Okay. Yeah. This is actually something that's talked about a lot. It's really coming forward in a lot of social media talk on this. So in my experience, codependent codependency refers to controlling others behaviors and focusing on their needs instead of your own. So the way I saw that play out was really more in relationship to my kids. Also, codependency tends to be more correct. Chronic. It's not really. And again, not a clinician here going off of my own experience, but. So codependency tends to be chronically enabling or having controlling behaviors that focuses on others instead of myself, whereas betrayal trauma is what I experienced with Dan. So betrayal trauma is really being wounded to your core. And in my situation, my brain was sensing danger at all times. It was on a constant, constant high alert. And that's very different than codependency itself. So thank goodness I had counselors here at Pure Desire that were trauma informed and that they helped me walk through understanding the difference between my codependency and. And betrayal trauma. So again, my codependency was more modeled around my children. My betrayal trauma was more modeled around my experience with my husband. So my mistrust was complete. It completely destroyed my sense of safety. I mean, completely gone. So setting boundaries and having those boundaries respected gave us a place to start. It gave me a safe place to start. So for me, that's where the codependency and the betrayal trauma piece look different to one another, but they are two different things. So a lot of times people will say, well, you're just codependent. Well, there might be some truth to that. But when someone's in trauma, how they react to circumstances is a whole different layer. Not every codependent has PTSD D. But someone in betrayal trauma certainly can. So it's definitely worth having a deeper dive conversation.

Yeah.

At some point. Because the subject really is one that people are talking a lot about. It's. It's worth having the conversation.

Yeah. I feel like that word does get thrown around a lot, the codependency word. And I think it's. That's scary, actually, to think about how much it gets thrown around. So if you are a struggling spouse, do not use that word. That's probably the safest thing. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. I think it's important to note that in a situation where someone is acting out sexually, there will be betrayal, trauma. There will be pain, There will be mistrust. The brain is made in a relationship to want to be exclusive to your spouse and to feel valued by them. And so if they're damaging that there's trauma, and there may be reactiveness or emotions related to that that we have to look for and deal with. And then, as you pointed out, there may also be codependency that we want to watch for.

Yes.

But early on, those two are so hard to separate out. Like, you just need to treat it like trauma and someone trying to figure out trauma. Do I need safety or control? Who knows? They're looking for both. Now, as you get healthier and you start to figure out some safety, then you may notice some codependent patterns, like, okay, that's just me trying to control or trying to be okay to make sure they're okay. And not to see that as an accusatory. Oh, you're codependent. But just be aware of, do I have some codependency patterns that actually contribute in an unhealthy way, not to blame myself for their behaviors, but to just look for that? Because that can be an outcome, I would say, of betrayal and deep trauma is. Then I become more and more codependent. So our hope is that as we deal with the trauma and the wounds, we find a greater sense of self and value and belonging, that we don't enter into codependency, but we find that healthy stability of I need to let you be you, and I need to be me. But as we've worked through our trauma, we see what it takes to create that healthy relationship.

Yeah. Yeah. So this is a messy, messy part of recovery. But I was just even thinking of almost referring it to as a gray area, but it's not a gray area. This is black and white. Boundaries are needed in recovery, but it is not a clean process. Recovery takes a lot of work and a lot of intentionality. And so we hope that, again, that this, for you, listener, this informs setting up boundaries and understanding when you're entering into those conversations, that the whole point is to continue in a relationship in a healthy way. That that's the whole motivation of setting up a boundary. And again, I guarantee you, people listen to this episode and they got triggered by something that was said, whether they're the betrayed spouse or the struggling spouse. And so just know that we're entering.

Breath, go for a walk, Right?

Totally. But just understand that the reason why we're having this conversation is just to shed our experience and the expertise that we carry in this area to try to help through this process because it is messy, but it can be done and can be done well.

Yeah, agreed.

Howie's thanks for being here.

Trevor, Nick, thanks for having us.

Thank you, kittens.

Oh, my Lord. Okay, people didn't hear the previous episode. That's not gonna make much sense to them.

Well, this is me doubling your part, podcast listener.

All right, well, wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help for unwanted sexual behavior or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you are a subscriber, write a review. It helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.