175 - Honesty vs. Disclosure

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hey, hey, hey. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 175 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, every episode almost Nick Stembo.

The following takes place between the hours of 1pm and 2pm okay, so for.

Me, it feels like one of those, like, true crime shows or is that like Law and Order? What is that?

You know, this came from one of our faithful listeners, so I really appreciate that. Shout out to Joseph, who sent some in. Actually, I'm gonna need to check. I think this was Steven. Oh, man. Now these two guys are gonna feel like one got credit for something he didn't do. They sent me a list of 10, so I'm gonna look that email up and make sure I give credit where credit's due. But no, this in reference to the show 24. And I don't know that they spoke it. I just think it came up on the screen. Yes. You know what hours it took place between and interestingly enough, those are the hours of today's podcast. It was roughly between 1 and 2.

That's true. I'm gonna check the source because Justin, our producer, is watching 24, currently binge watching. Okay, so what is it said? Or is it show up on the screen said every time it said. Okay, hopefully you could hear him. This is why we're trying to talk our producer into having a microphone during the episodes for this kind of information. Who would have known? Okay, so a couple things before we get into the podcast. First, subscribe to the podcast. If you are not subscribed, honestly, I don't know why you get notified. And you'd make sure it's in your podcast list every single week. And we try to put out really good content, so try to keep up with it. Okay. Also, follow us on social media, uredesirepdmi, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and we also have video content on YouTube. Just search PureDesire Ministries. Another thing. Let's just talk about it again. The 101 course is out now. It's our favorite thing we've ever created. It's the best. We really do believe it's the best content when it comes to this. But it's something that really gets people started. It's something I've been thinking a lot about recently. Just when I realized I had this unwanted behavior or there was brokenness in me, I probably couldn't even articulate that that's what was going on. But I just knew something needed to change and I didn't know where to start. Stuff I tried before didn't work. And that's really why we created the One on One course.

Yeah. And if someone just started listening, they have no clue what you're talking about. The One on One, you haven't described anything. So to be clear, it is an eight week video study that introduces people to sexual integrity, Sexual Integrity 101, and helps them understand what goes into our behavior, why we do things we don't want to do, and what is actual recovery and freedom look like. I was thinking about the analogy is like, I've grown up my whole life as a football fan and sit down on the couch Sunday afternoons and love watching a game of football. And when someone is around me, I assume they know the rules, that they know how things work. But, you know, having children is, you know, life's great mentor. That my kids will sit next to me like, why did they do that? Why did they do that? How come that's. And just. And sometimes I get irritated. I'm like, just watch the game. But then I was like, oh, they have no clue what's happening.

Yeah.

Like they literally don't know the rules, process. And I think when it comes to unwanted sexual behavior, that's actually where a lot of people are stuck. They, they really don't know why these things happen. What's going on in our brain, what's happening to the neurochemistry, what, what creates the patterns? What does freedom look like? So we maybe assume we know some things. But one of the things you'll see in the video course is a lot of what we maybe have been taught in some of our traditional families that were, with good intentions, were actually not helpful in recovering from sexual brokenness. So it's incredibly eye opening. And I think it equips someone with the tools, whether they're needing to help themselves get better or they're trying to help someone that they love or care about.

Yep. And honestly, this is stuff that we've spent a couple decades developing as an organization and are really happy to now offer it in digital on our website format and then also a DVD format. If you want to check it out and get more information on it or purchase it. It is@puredesire.org 101. Okay, so we had a conversation that if people were to look at my inbox probably over the last year, year and a half, I feel like this is a podcast episode. We've been talking about for a while. And I'm glad that we finally got to it because it is this interesting, difficult tension between honesty, full disclosure, and we unpacked. You wrote a blog, which we'll make sure is in the show notes, called Honestly Speaking. Kind of differentiates between, you know, what's spewing honesty and full disclosure. But we had Ashley Jamison on our International Women's Groups coordinator and really unpacked this. Yeah.

And what we're talking about today is a difficult, messy, painful situation. I mean, let's be honest, when you're trying to get to the full story of what's gone on in one spouse's life who's been struggling with sexual brokenness or addiction, like, this is not going to be fun or pretty. So I want to help listeners up front think about. We're not trying to tell anyone how to make a messy situation clean and easy. We're trying to help you figure out how to take a really messy, ugly situation and survive it, how to make it manageable. So a lot of us have tried approaches that actually maybe felt like it made it worse or we're caught in this. She wants me to tell everything. I don't want to say anything. What do we do? So we're going to just try to provide some. Some structure around what to share and when to share and some healthy perspective of knowing that there's a both and in this situation that. That I both need to learn to be honest right now currently about what I'm doing or choices I'm making. And I need to be looking towards a full accurate history of what's gone up until this point and how those two kind of work together interact. It can be tricky. It's more art than science, to use a phrase that I've brought in a lot like, there's not a perfect. Just do this, this and this. Like, well, here's what we recommend. Here's what you can try. And I really hope as. As listeners go through this, they'll see what they need to apply to their story. Because every relationship is different, every spouse is different. And maybe that's the last thing I could say is whatever situation you're in, try to avoid the comparison of, oh, we did it wrong and everybody else has done it right. Because the truth is, and we say this at the end of the episode today, like, I think everybody to some degree has done this wrong.

Yeah.

And so we're all trying to figure out how to do better. And so if you cannot so much worry if you've done it right or not, and just say God and in our relationship and where we're at, what do we need to do? I think you'll really get some key next steps from this episode.

Yeah. And like we say in the episode, this is such a necessary step to recovery for both the struggling spouse and the betrayed spouse. So it's a good episode. Enjoy. Ashley, welcome back. Thanks for being with us.

Yeah. It sounded like you were going to say more there.

No, she was smiling. She was ready.

Gosh, that kind of cut off weird. Yeah, I'm happy to be here.

Are you? Are you okay? Okay.

Best intro ever.

Oh, gosh. Yours are like, consistently awkward and in the best way, but consistently awkward. They're so good. And no one ever really gets to see them because we don't put the full episodes up. Okay. So this episode we a little bit of backstory. Like, Nick, you wrote this blog a while ago called Honestly Speaking. And Ashley, you refer to it when we do these events around the country. Before the video course, we used to take, really the Sexual Integrity 101 content, and we took it around the country. And you would talk about this because one of the things that is a really, really difficult part of group is disclosure. And there's this tension between, if I haven't given a full disclosure, do I. Am I still honest about relapses or what recovery is looking like in group? And so this is a really tough situation and tends to be really. There's just a lot of tension usually because there's a ton of trauma and a ton of experience wrapped up into this conversation. And so we kind of wanted to unpack that idea. What's the difference between honesty and disclosure? And Nick, in your blog, I'll just. I'll put the first question to you, Nick. You talk about three different levels, if you will. It's spewing, honesty and full disclosure. Can you kind of describe what each of those are?

Yeah. Unfortunately, most of us are probably most familiar with the concept of spewing or what we've also called emotional vomiting. And that happens in a couple of scenarios where one, the person gets caught with material. Somehow their behavior comes to light or the guilt shame factor in their life gets to the point they're like, I can't really hold this anymore. And they go to the spouse, or in case they've been caught, spouse comes to them and there's like this, here's what I've been doing. I'm sorry. And just blah. Like, just whatever comes to mind. And the spouse maybe asks the Question of what else has been happening. Just it's kind of this get it off my chest, get it all out there. And in a sense it feels right. You know, it feels like I'm going to come clean and I'm going to, I'm just going to start fresh and the heart behind it, the motive is good. I think more often than not we're trying to get back to a place of honesty and truth. But what gets missed in that spewing or emotional vomiting is we're just very guilt driven. We're just trying to get it out. But just like if someone gets sick in our home, they maybe feel better, but the rest of us have to deal with the mess and the cleanup and it's not pleasant. And the truth is there's usually a lot of things that don't get said that in that emotional spewing significant pieces get left out. We sugarcoat the truth, we say as much as we think we need to to move on and long term that really isn't going to build health into a relationship. And so what we're looking at is to create both honesty and at some point a full disclosure. So to define the difference between those two, the full disclosure would be a time where both spouses could sit down and the one who has struggled or battled this addiction could go through a very fact based, detailed to an appropriate level, non emotional history of their sexual acting out. At least for the timeframe the couple has known each other. And we have found in a lot of cases really to go through their whole life because for the spouse who's hearing all this, it actually can be very, very helpful to hear some of the roots of it from childhood and where kind of the pieces they weren't around for. But that full disclosure is truly what creates now we're at ground zero now we've got it all out in the open. And that simply cannot happen in an emotional spewing moment. Because it takes thoughtfulness, it takes time, it takes a willingness for the person to really engage in that part of their life that they've probably been avoiding. And so that's why there are places we've said that should probably be about six months down the road in your process because now you're healthy enough to acknowledge the truth of what you've been doing, what's been going on. So along the way it does provoke that question then, well, does that mean I say nothing for six months? And that's the side of learning to be honest about current struggles and what we're recommending is if there continue to be patterns of relapse, those relapses need to be shared with the spouse, because otherwise it's just creating more damage and ammunition. When you get to the full disclosure that they're gonna be like, wait a minute, what's been going on these last few months? And so it's learning this balance. And honestly, it's not easy. There's a tension to this, of saying to a spouse, you know, I want you to know I'm committed to living in this new way, to being a person of integrity, having purity in my life, and I'm moving towards that place where you're going to know everything. But right now, I'm focused on my recovery and healing. And I'm committing to you that if I cross these certain lines, I'm going to be honest and tell you because you need to know and you need to have that trust that. That I'm moving in the right direction. So that's kind of the distinction. The emotional spewing, we don't recommend. The full disclosure is something that needs to happen, but usually eventually. And current honesty is learning just to have that conversation, to acknowledge when I've crossed those lines that I've committed to not crossing.

Yeah. Yeah. I think the thing with spewing, too, is you don't tend to actually cover much, just kind of what happened in the moment. There's a lot of things that tend to get missed. And so as someone is, you know, spewing, they feel better, but it's still not a full picture. And I don't think that honesty in and of itself is a full picture either. But I've heard this said before. Like, if you're writing a story, there needs to be a beginning, a middle, and an end. And if you're just looking at the end of the story, you don't actually understand the complete story. And so that's the idea of working toward a full disclosure is so that you understand a little bit, which I know we'll get into. Uh, and some of the next questions.

Yeah, I guess what I would add to that, to what Nick said is just from the spouse's side, it. With the spewing, it also feels like, I guess, out of control. Yeah, it's not a controlled, predictable setting. And so when it's out of control like that, and it's random and there's a lot of emotions involved, then it does just create, like, a sense of chaos. And so that can create a lot of anxiety for the spouse. And it can also make Them feel like you don't know when it's going to happen again. And so you're just living in this state of chaos of, you know, the unpredictability that it might just happen at any time and, And. And be triggered and remember how that felt. And so the more predictable and systematic it can be, even if it is a confessed relapse, a current honesty, if there's still a method to it, and a process of I reach out to my group and. And it kind of helps take the emotions down a notch just so it feels more stable for your spouse. So, yeah, I guess we'll get into that more in some other questions. But yeah, doing whatever you can to reduce the emotional shrapnel in the moment is best.

Yeah, I mean, we want to acknowledge this is going to be hard. It's going to be painful. We want to try to do it in a way that has the highest likelihood of leading to recovery and restoration and not just becoming this devastating blow that a couple can't recover from. Because that, I mean, let's be honest, there's no easy way to do a hard thing. It's going to be messy. But if we can create, as you're saying, Ashley, some structure to. Can really increase our chances of growing from it. So in our pure desire recovery groups, we encourage the struggling spouse to wait until six months or somewhere around that mark for the full disclosure of their full negative sexual history. So, Ashley, why is that?

Yeah, this is that question that we get a lot that women and that have been through my groups personally really struggle with. And I kind of reframe it in that you're not waiting six months for him to finally be honest. He is doing the process. You know, I let. Let my group members know that, you know, your spouse is doing what they need to do in order to become honest, but that the disclosure is its own thing. I don't even like to say it's about being honest or not being honest. The disclosure is just its own part of the process where you sit down and you get the full history. And you can't expect this struggling spouse to know all that because what we say is we're doing these behaviors that keep causing chaos in our life, but we don't know why we're doing that. And so it only makes sense to allow the addict or the person struggling to go through group to understand where it's coming from, why they're doing it, and be able to make sense of their addiction and their story so that they can give a coherent narrative to their spouse.

Right.

If, if they're not even sure why they do certain things, then it's going to come across as blame or it's my fault. And so it's really just about allowing that person struggling the time and space to completely process and also remember things. Because that can cause a lot of staggered disclosure and wounds. When you're going through group and your spouse comes to you and says, oh yeah, by the way, when so and so was sharing, you know, that he visited a bath house, it reminded me that I had two and I totally forgot to tell you, you know, like that's not going to do any favors for the couple. So, you know, to allow them time to also remember all their experiences and to be able to put things together and fill in all those gaps that they may have forgot about or they may have not seen as a big deal. I remember with John and I, he would say I would find something out and he'd say, oh, I just didn't think that was a big deal because I told you that I did this. And I figured that fell under that umbrella where the spouse is going, no, I want details that is not the same as this. And so allowing time to figure all that out and be able to get it all down on paper, like you said, make a fact based history with all the details that are needed and then share it all at once. It doesn't mean you're not being honest. It means that you're working through it and basically taking six months to put together a really good disclosure for your spouse.

Right. And it's not one of the things I think it's. And this is, I feel like this is good in this conversation, it's coming to mind that the full disclosure is not actually just for one spouse, it is for both. The exercise of putting together your full disclosure is significant in your recovery process because you are laying it out in a timeline and you can see things. You know, in some ways it's really like a 30,000 foot view where you can see how these moments and experiences and your sexual history all tie together on a timeline. And that's extremely helpful when you're looking at your story, but then also it helps you create the. And this is the thing, this is what I, as the marketing director, one of the things I think I pay a lot of attention to is messaging and language. And what I have learned is that narrative is a tool, if you will, for people to better understand truth or facts. And so when you can put something into a story and into a Narrative our brains are actually, it's actually why I believe Jesus taught in parables is because our brain actually processes information at a much higher rate in a narrative form. So without getting super nerdy, if I haven't already on that, I think that this helps create that where you can see from start to finish and personally better understand your story. But then for your spouse, they're gonna have a much fuller picture of what actually happened. And there may be some holes that you've met. You know, I don't remember everything about my experience as a kid, but there's gonna be a lot fewer holes in the story for my spouse to better understand. If I can do a full disclosure exercise.

Yeah. And we want to keep in mind that everyone who's struggling with sexual addiction or levels of sexual brokenness that lead to them acting out with lust, pornography, whatever, is battling some level of rationalizing, minimizing and denying. And that's not because they're a bad person. That's because that's how their brain tries to cope with the guilt and shame so that we can sleep at night and feel okay about ourselves. So if you're trying to do a full disclosure right away or that emotional spewing, that's what will prevent them from telling that full narrative or a complete story. And so over that course of six months, as they're learning and growing and developing better health, the structures of rationalizing, minimizing and denying are being torn down. So they're able to give that complete story. Now, as we've noted other places, there are some circumstances where you simply cannot wait for a six month time frame for a person to be healing and growing. I mean, some of those things that we've been clear on is if there's illegal activity going on, there needs to be a full disclosure that happens right away because a spouse deserves to know before perhaps a police officer is knocking at the door and someone's going away in cuffs. If there's been infidelity or involvement with other people, that needs to be dealt with. And full disclosure needs to happen quickly if one of the spouses has been caught in the middle of their behavior, so to speak, and just the, the relational pain and trauma that causes. Again, in that situation, full disclosure needs to be fast forwarded. But even in those scenarios, we want to try to encourage a couple, don't go the emotional spewing route. Take some time to write it out, get with a counselor if possible, that's trained in how to do this well and address it soon, but really realize you still want to do it with some thought behind it and not just 1am we're just trying to hash it out by ourselves because as, as we've noted, that can lead to some really unexpected unintended consequences of pain and trauma.

And I don't know any good conversation that has ever happened at 1am Like, I don't know any hard conversation that ends well past. I mean, it's never fun, but like past 11pm come on, just don't do it. Don't even engage.

Well, and what I like about what you guys are saying with what you're saying, Trevor, with the narrative when you were being a nerd, is that it kind of helps the spouse who's receiving it not feel like they need to dig for more information. If you're coming at a spouse with the full story, not only, like you said, does it help you listening to it and getting it all out there and saying, okay, it's all out there, but the spouse doesn't feel like, okay, so you're in group because you're looking at porn. Well, what else? When did this start? Well, how old were you? When you can come already prepared with the full story, it's take some pressure off the spouse to feel like they need to dig for more because you gave them such a complete narrative. They may still have questions, but it's going to feel less likely that they're digging. And I've heard from a lot of great authors who counsel couples in this area that it's almost better to just over communicate that you always want to err on the side of over communicating. And you get to do that when you have it all written out in a story like that. Like, is there anything I missed? Practice reading it out loud. Are things coming to mind because you'd rather have you have that experience of, oh, I forgot something, let me add it. When I was working with my leader, I forgot something. Let me add it versus coming back to your wife and be like, one more thing or one more thing or, you know, letting your husband know, by the way, your friend, you know, so and so I forgot that we, you know, kissed 10 years ago. You don't want to be adding that thing, those kinds of things later.

Yeah, yeah.

I think another thing that's coming to mind too. And this, I could see this happening on occasion, maybe not every time, but when you're able to put it in a story format, I think that it also helps to normalize that this person who's been hurting you with this behavior is also a Human being and has a story and has brokenness that's been spattered throughout their story that isn't just, you know, they aren't just their unwanted behavior or behavior that's hurting you. That it also maps out that, you know, because in a full disclosure, you may learn that there's been some abuse or some really traumatic experiences that fueled some of the unwanted behavior, if not all of it. And so I think that it can also, I don't know, humanize. Knowing someone's story, the full picture of their life, just helps you to be potentially more compassionate or understanding of that person and just what they've had to experience. Okay, so. And we kind of have already touched on this a little bit, but let's say we're in that first six months of creating sobriety, really starting to under. Understand our story, understand the unwanted behavior. What should we be honest about in that process? If we're waiting for the full disclosure, but we still want to be honest, what does that look like in the first six months?

Yeah. Just to reiterate what Nick said, if there's anything illegal, infidelity with another person, those things never wait. When you're going group in that first six months, you want to be honest about current relapses. You want to be honest about current mistakes that you're making so that you can start practicing living with integrity, being the same person at group as you are at home. You don't want to be in group and confess a relapse and then go home and hide it from your spouse and feel that shame and withdraw. And, oh, my spouse is getting too close to my secret, so I'm going to back off again. I'm going to start acting weird distractions. You just want to be able to be truthful and honest wherever you are, and that's going to start helping you to recognize that you can live a life of honesty. And so any current behaviors, basically, if you relapse, that's something that should be shared with your spouse. There's no exception.

Yep. Yep. In an ideal situation, both halves of the couple are in a group and are in recovery. And in that case, the betrayed spouse or the one who's not in their in it for their own recovery, they can have a voice in this, I believe, to be able to say, here are certain lines or behaviors that if you continue to engage in, I need you to tell me right away, even though I know we're working towards full disclosure. And that can actually be helpful for the addict or the one struggling to know like, oh, they're serious about, they want honesty, and that can actually help them make right decisions. Because, like, I don't get to act like this doesn't matter anymore. They have asked me to tell them, and I'm committed to being a person of integrity and telling them. Now, if, if your spouse doesn't know much yet or they're not in group, obviously that's more challenging. But that's where I would echo what Ashley said, that at some point, to build a healthy relationship, honesty is going to have to be the foundation of that relationship. And so when is it a good time to start being honest about your bad behaviors and choices? There's never a good time. But if, if a relapse occurs, that may be the window. You need to go to your spouse and say, I desire to be a person of integrity. I'm in this group. I'm moving in a healthy direction, but I'm still making mistakes. And I feel like you need to know a choice I made and owning that in the present. So again, that's a healthy distinction of the full disclosure is a focus on our past history and story. Honesty is about the present circumstance or what's going on right now. And when a couple, again to emphasize this, when a couple is committed to that, when the person in recovery is committed to that, it will actually reduce relapses dramatically because we know, like, I don't get to hide it and rationalize it away anymore. I've committed to telling them, and I don't want to have to do that. I already know it's coming in a full disclosure, and that's going to be hard enough. So I don't want to, you know, it's the principle of the whole, if you're in a hole, stop digging. I want to. Don't want to make it worse. So I'm going to avoid those things. So, and as you were saying, Trevor, rather than seeing this as a negative thing, how is this health healthy and helpful for both of us?

Yeah, another thing in this is I think honesty does not just mean that I say yes if I have relapsed when I'm asked, it's not a. My spouse comes to me and says, have you relapsed since you started group? And I say yes, I'm so sorry. And then that is not honesty. That might be a version of honesty and spewing. I think honesty also includes that. But just being proactive that if you have relapsed that that week you should have a conversation with your spouse. I Don't think it's honesty. I'll just say both of them are going to hurt. Both of them will hurt your spouse 100% of the time. The one where the spouse comes to you and asks and then you say, yes, that one's probably going to hurt worse. If you are able to be proactive and start living honestly, that does a lot more. I believe in the long. The long run, the long term. Then you're only honest with me when I ask or have to push in. I think that that just creates even more of an unhealthy dynamic in the relationship too, because we talk about that a lot. We don't want the spouse to become the police officer or the investigator, which is already difficult enough to not do as a betrayed spouse. So don't make it worse. Be proactive and be honest up front.

Yeah, it's about taking responsibility.

Yeah, totally.

So is there anything that we should not share or disclose to our spouse?

You're asking a spouse who really wanted to know everything. But yes, like we were saying in the beginning, don't start spewing the whole. The whole history right then, because there's a time and a place to sit down and do that, preferably with a clinician that's certified and can really help with that situation. This is the part where it gets a little tricky, because if, if you have a spouse who wants to know, hey, did your thoughts linger on a fantasy today? Did it. Did you spend too much time scrolling? Then those are things you're really going to have to work out with your spouse. And if it gets really. If it becomes a difficult situation, we really recommend that you have a therapist or a clinician help you decide what's too much and what's maybe what's too little. Because if you have a spouse who feels like, I need to know more, and they're constantly feeling like they're still left in the dark and they need to know more and the person struggling isn't willing to share it, there's going to be a problem. If you have a spouse who's constantly oversharing and the betrayed spouse either doesn't recognize that it's too much for them to take and it causes all this anxiety, or they're asking to not have that information, and the one that's struggling is saying, what I'm supposed to tell you everything, you're going to have problems. And so it's really about obviously recognizing first what the relapse is for the addict and for the spouse. What do you consider a Relapse, Do I consider relapse sexually acting out porn and masturbation? And while my spouse thinks of relapses, I spent five minutes scrolling on inappropriate social media that was sexual. And so you really can't decide what's too much or too little until you know what the relapse definition is. And that has to be something that you're both involved in that process. I know for me, when John and I first started, he would tell me things like if his thoughts were lingering on fantasy or if you scrolled. And then it came to a point where it's like, that caused me to be worse off for the day. I thought I wanted it, and it was great at first because I'm like, okay, I just feel so betrayed and in the dark. I want to know everything so that I'm not feeling like there's pieces missing and that you're the secret person. And that worked for a while, and then there came a point where it's like, I got a little healthier, and I'm like, this is not good for me to know every little thing. And so I need you to not tell me that stuff. You can tell me when your recovery slips in this way and then let me know, but keep everything else to your group discussions and so define the relapse first and then decide how much you know and what should be shared.

Which, I mean, and I know for you guys, you were both in a group that you had been pursuing group at that point, too. Not everybody's going to be in that situation. If your spouse. If the betrayed spouse is not in group, it just. It feels more complicated. It feels like there's. There's more there that has to get unpacked. And, I mean, I'm just thinking too, of the people who might be listening right now who are in recovery, who their spouse knows very little, if not nothing about the fact that they're in group and trying to get healthy. And. And I. I don't know. That just seems super heavy and complicated.

Yeah, I think it's helpful. You might think of, like, the ABCs of what to share. You want to share actions, behaviors, and choices, things that you can kind of quantify that are more tangible. Now, that doesn't mean. Well, so, hey, you can get away with a, you know, robust secret fantasy life and all this. I mean, it's a belief that we are a spouse or a person moving in the right direction, and we don't want to make those actions or behaviors or choices. But when we do get into some of the ambiguous, vague, lustful thinking, second glances that can be really hard to know where. Is this really a choice someone is making in just the world we live in, that we're fallen people? And I think, as you're saying, Ashley, it tends to lead to more wounding than it ever creates. Good. You know, we've quoted often on the podcast the prophet Jeremiah who says, you know, who can understand the human heart and its depth of wickedness, that in our fallen humanity now, thankfully, through Christ, we have a new heart and a new mind, and we have the mind of Christ. But in our fallenness, that's part of this present world, we have dark, evil, sinful thoughts. Now, does that define us? Is that who we are? Well, no, but if you're trying to ask about someone's thought life or fantasy life, you're actually trying to explore their sinfulness. And I don't know how that could be good for anyone. I mean, let's take it out of the realm of sexual thoughts and just talk to someone like, well, have you ever hated someone? And, well, yeah, like, have you ever thought of hurting them? And, well, if I'm honest, yeah. Have you ever thought of killing? I mean, you can go pretty dark places, and we'd all be like, well, yeah, it does get dark. Like, was. Is that really information that's going to be helpful to know as a spouse? So if we can have some level of understanding that there's evil and sin that we're all working through that's not part of this process, then I think that can calm that desire a little bit. Where a spouse is, well, I need to know everything. Thinking that that's the path to healing, when actually that's just typically the pain to more confusion and misunderstanding. Like, well, why would you want or desire that? Because usually the person who thought is like, I don't know. I don't know why that kind of thing can pop into my mind or why I can be attracted to that. Especially if they're early in recovery, they may not understand their trigger or their wounds or how their past plays in or how even abuse from our past becomes desires in the present. And it's. It's messy and it's gross. And so in some ways, we've got to let that part of it not be the focus because we're looking to change that behavior so we feel safe and like we can rebuild the relationship.

Yeah, that's like, it's such a hard position to be in as a betrayed spouse. And I'll just speak to the stories I've heard and the groups I've been a part of, watching the experience.

It.

Just feels like this is a well that I don't know when it stops. This is just. It just keeps falling. There's no bottom. There's no okay. I finally know everything. And I think that in that situation, a spouse that does want to know, you know, every lustful thought, every lingering look, every double take, they want to know because they're just grasping for any sense of control and stability, and they don't have it. And so if you're listening to this and you are in that situation where you have experienced betrayal trauma from a. Your spouse's sexual addiction, it's not bad that you have that desire. We're saying that it is not the healthiest thing for you. And I mean, Ashley, you can speak more to this than I can, but I have heard consistently from all of our teachers, from everyone on staff from the betrayal side, asking for more details and asking for everything actually ends up hurting you in the long run way more than at least understanding or knowing the important pieces of was it a relapse or not? I mean, Ashley, do you have anything you'd add on that?

Yeah, I think in I can't remember the chapter, but in Betrayal and Beyond, when you're trying to decide what kind of questions to ask, you want to ask yourself just simply, do I need this information to help me reestablish trust and intimacy? Do I need, you know, will this help me move forward in that way and fill in some of those missing pieces? Or is this information I'm asking for gonna hurt me, and is it gonna help move us forward in any way? And so that's. That's really for the spouse to ask, because it can be really painful if you found out that your spouse has been lying to you or deceiving you or even living two different lives or having another family somewhere for decades? And then somebody's gonna tell you what is too much to ask. And so it really, really does need to follow the pace of the betrayed spouse. And hopefully, as they feel more confident in what you're saying and as you're being proactive in sharing information, and as they're in group or counseling, they feel like they need to know less. But in that beginning stage, you may have to be really honest about things that are super embarrassing, and that's the way it has to start. And then as you get healthier as a couple, it will change. But I would say for the spouse that there's really not too much information you can ask. Actually, I'm speaking more to the struggler that your spouse may ask you all kinds of things and it's because their brain is just grasping at what's reality and trying to put a picture to this. Because the holes that you can fill in with your mind of what happened can be sometimes worse than what truly happened. And so they may seem like they're asking all kinds of bizarre questions and it's just from the shock of betrayal. And so just allow the grace, just be fully answered, like fully honest in answer. And allow your spouse grace and time to be able to get the help that they need to get. I guess good direction on how to handle question asking and relapses, but let it come from somebody else. You should not be their coach on what you know is too much like, oh, my leader told me that you shouldn't ask that because no, let it be from a third party, from another person who's been there. And then the only other thing I wanted to add was I hear a lot. My spouse was in group for this many months and I didn't even know. And they thought that was the right thing to do was to kind of get in group, get rolling, but they were still keeping that they were going to group a secret. And that became another betrayal that even in your recovery, you're still sneaking and telling me you're going to a Bible study, but it's really this group for, you know, sexual addicts and strugglers. And so you can't let the fact that your spouse is not in a group be something that holds you back from being honest. That that needs to happen right away. And, and like Nick said, it's never going to be easy, so it needs to happen. And sometimes that's exactly what shakes it up enough to where your spouse will get help. Maybe they won't. It doesn't matter. You still need to be honest.

Yeah, I think as you guys are saying this stuff, I think it just, it really just re emphasizes the importance of being in group because it just feels like it's a. It's like a situation by situation sometimes. Like what information will be most helpful. Well, it depends on what's happened in your relationship. It depends on your level of trust. It depends on how long your spouse has been in group. And, and this is just another reason that I would emphasize being in a pure desire group or a recovery and support group is so important because then you have that community around you where you can ask those questions. Well, I'm not really sure If I should know this information, what do you think? You know, what does the group say? Have you asked this question before? And you know, like, I've been in groups where guys, my wife asked me this question and I don't want to give the answer. Should I give them the answer? And we all can just be like, yes, tell her, she asked the question. You know, those kind of situations don't happen if you don't have that safe place you can go to. And so I would just definitely reemphasize the importance of being in group in this process. It's just so essential.

Yeah, there's wisdom in community.

Yep. Okay, so Ashley, I, I have no doubt you get this question all the time. What would you say to a betrayed spouse who feels like this six month rule is really just lying or prolonged lying and keeping secrets?

I would just let them know that it does take time to understand everything. And so it's, it's definitely not lying because the luckily, hopefully their spouse is going to be honest during the process of any, you know, current things so they don't have to be worried about any surprises that way that their spouse is currently doing anything. I also like to reassure them that if there is any infidelity, if there is anything illegal, which a lot of times the spouse's mind can go there, like what if I wait six months and then, you know, my spouse tells me he's been, you know, cheating with my best friend this whole time or that kind of stuff. Hopefully if they're in a good group, is not going to happen because their, their leader or their clinician is, is going to say, you need to have that disclosure now. And of course, I can't speak for every group around the nation that's using our material, but in pure desire groups, if somebody is struggling with an infidelity or something illegal, they're going to be encouraged to tell their spouse. And if they don't tell their spouse, the leader will make sure that it happens because it's a safety issue and they need to know about it. And so at least with that off, it helps the spouse know. Nothing like that is going to come out at the end. You may still have a lot of surprises, but there's going to be certain things that we would encourage them to tell you right away. The other thing I would say is it's a good opportunity for you to take that six months as you're going through group to write down questions you may have and also to navigate. I mean, you may have 35 questions. The beginning and then say, okay, I don't need to know that one. That one's just going to cause me more pain. And so it's a good chance for you to prepare to hear other women's stories, to hear your leaders experience, experience to write down questions. And really, just, even though this is hard and it's not easy just to do it well one time so you don't have to keep coming back to this. Just, just hopefully every. Everything comes out that one time. And you don't have to be re traumatized because I have experience of thinking I have the full story and then two months later getting more of the story. And it is so damaging because you feel like as much as you're learning about your spouse that there's always going to be something more. And so just do it well the first time and do it really well.

Yeah. And if a betrayed spouse is in that place of feeling like, I can't trust them, they're keeping secrets, I feel like they're lying, that really reveals a relational disconnect. That would be a reason to speed up the full disclosure process because you're not going to make much headway together if one spouse is just totally stuck in a place of I do not trust you at all. It's like, well, let's get into this process because I want to lay it out and I want to work on rebuilding trust. And if that can't happen until the full disclosure, let's do it. So it might be saying, in two weeks, we're going to meet with this counselor and I'm doing the work, I'm writing it out, I'm having it reviewed by my group leader to make sure it's not emotionally based or blaming, that it's factual and honest and is, you know, as thorough as I know how to make it. That could be one of the reasons you do that. I think another thing for a betrayed spouse is maybe what's playing on them is this fear of a suspicion that maybe they have done something illegal or committed, committed adultery, had an affair, something that they're worried could be a deal breaker. And if that's a legitimate concern, I think they need to go to their spouse and just say, here are four reasons that full disclosure needs to happen right away. And I need to know and be honest with me. Do we need to do full disclosure soon?

Yeah.

Has there been anything illegal? Have you had an affair? Have you? You know, and, and if that spouse can say, that's not what we're talking about, maybe that would give Them what they need to take a deep breath. But in truth, if some of those deal breakers are present in that story, that betrayed spouse does need to know. They do need to know if he's keeping a secret of an affair from a year ago. And it's really not fair that they wait another year. So if you're the betrayed spouse, maybe it's taking that to them. And if you're the one listening and you are the spouse struggling through this, if you know there's a potential deal breaker in your story, all I can say to you is, again, that's going to be hard. And if you want to have a good relationship with your spouse, it's going to have to come out.

Have to.

Absolutely. And sooner will be better than later. So if I were you and I was listening to this, your next move is to find a certified sex addiction therapist. Right after you're done listening, call them up and meet and get going. Because if you can start with that professional help on your side, it will at least elevate your chances of surviving this. But thinking that you can ignore it and keep that secret and it'll never come up and you'll just be okay, that's fantasy land. That's. That's not how relationships work.

Right.

And you might think it's better for them not to know, but it. We would just say time and time again, sooner or later it comes out, and it's always worse that someone waited. So take that step and deal with it, and we're here to support you along the way.

Yeah, that doesn't like, the more time that you wait. It's not like it gets better. It's gonna get worse the longer you wait to say that is actually making it worse. Something that came to mind for me is, I don't know if you guys have ever experienced this where you are like, creating something, building something, making something. And someone walks up kind of in the early stages and goes, what is that? And obviously, in your mind, I'm building the Millennium Falcon. It's a Lego, leave me alone. But no one can see it at the beginning. I think that the same principle can be applied to the full disclosure that if you were just to see the bits and pieces at the beginning, it wouldn't actually make sense. It wouldn't be a full picture. You don't actually see what I'm trying to do and create. And this may be a terrible analogy, but I just feel like there's something to trusting a process of crafting this, creating this, developing this so that you can see the finished product and it can be presented well in a way that's going to help your relationship. Because all of this, this entire conversation, is for the betterment of your marriage and relationship for the long haul. It's not just to. Okay, we checked that box. No, this is also done for the future health of your marriage, your family, and if you think about it too, your kids, your kids, kids, their kids. You're setting a trajectory of generations. And so that's. I think that's something that's important to get into, especially if you're the struggling spouse. It's really important to know that this is not a process that's just to make him or her happy. That's not it. It's actually for the health of your relationship and marriage. It will never be healthy until this can happen.

Have an earlier disclosure, which I was one of those people too. I had a hard time waiting because of the trust issues. You still need to do a full disclosure at the end because there's just so much gained by going through a group with other people processing everything. So no matter how full the disclosure is on the front end, it's still going to be more complete at the end after somebody's been through a complete group. So you'll still want to make sure to do that at the end.

And I would say what you're describing, Ashley, is actually probably for the majority of couples, what they go through is early on there is some kind of spewing, premature disclosure. They're trying to get it out, and it was not done well. But it is often what launched many of us into this process. It got enough into the open that we're making some strides forward. And so that just what you said can be helpful, Ashley, I believe God can use that hard and maybe even poorly done disclosure to get us going with some confidence. Say, you know, at the end, we're going to try that again, and this time it's going to be complete and accurate. And we'll probably have the tools and support to actually face it well. So if you're a listener and say, yeah, that's us too, like, well, you're actually probably in the majority. It's really rare that couples enter into group together. They don't do a full disclosure. They learn to like, that's again, an ideal that we want to hope for. But relationships are messy. And honestly, most of us don't start group until it gets messy enough that we finally deal with it. So probably, if you're listening, something like this has not Gone well. But just what Ashley said, keep working towards that full disclosure, because it does have a very healthy building effect in your relationship. So one last question, Ashley. Can we create a recovery action plan even before we've done the full disclosure, or do we have to wait till we have all that information to actually construct the recovery action plan?

Oh, yeah. I'm, you know, I'm like number one fan of recovery action plan. So you can have that early, as early as you can in group. Because it's. What it's going to do is put some structure in place for if a relapse does happen. That's really all the tool is for, is if a relapse does happen, then what are your steps to take after that? And so whether you're a single person and having a recovery action plan or your spouse and your spouse is not on board or not in group, you still need it. You'll share it with your group. You can share it with their spouse. Whether they're receptive to it or not is up to them. You can't totally predict or control how somebody else is going to respond. But you can share your recovery action plan and say, these are the things I'm going to do. And then if you have a spouse that's on board, they can create a recovery action plan to the spouse. 1. And then you guys can come together and make sure that you guys are in alignment, because it's just a plan in case a relapse happens. That's all it is. And if a relapse happens, then all of the emotional pain and all the tension and everything that happens because of a relapse is still going to be there. All your plan is doing is helping you map out the steps that you need to take that you created in your healthy mindset for after that occurs. And so it is just giving you direction. It is just giving you a game plan of how to handle that. And it is so much more effective when you create that plan in a healthy mindset with other people who are healthy instead of out of your limbic brain because you just had a relapse or in response to your spouse's reaction. And so it's just a. It's just guidance for what to do afterward.

Yeah. And to think about it this way, that if you're the betrayed spouse, creating that recovery action plan can actually be helpful to your spouse that's needing to recover. Because right now they may be living in some fear of, like, if I mess up, they're going to leave me. And it's so vague or general, like, they feel this need that I've got to be perfect. And if I inadvertently, you know, glance too long at someone, it's all over and they're living in this fear. And. But if there can be a healthy recovery action plan where a spouse says, okay, if you look at pornography, I need to know, and here's the outcomes and consequences, or if there's an affair or if there's, you know, whatever is really the spouse is afraid of happening and needs a plan for. I've found for most of guys or gals in recovery or in addiction that's like, oh, okay, yeah, I can do that. I can avoid. I can avoid an affair. I can avoid. I don't need to do those things. I'm.

Yeah.

And it actually gives them that structure, like, I can stay within these lanes. And then when we get to that full disclosure, if there's more information that comes out that we need to. To add and adjust the plan, great. But. But it actually helps the addict in the meantime, feel like, I know the path I need to stay on and I can be committed to it. So realize that you're probably helping your spouse by creating this. You're not hurting them, especially if you approach it with that heart. Just to say, I want this to work. And in order for it to work, I'm going to need to know if these things happen and if they happen, here's what's going to need to occur for us to recover from it. And so it's. It really can create the structure you need to make it through this process.

Yeah, this is such a messy and oftentimes complicated but so important process when it comes to recovery. And really, if you think about it, it's not just the recovery or the healing of the individuals. It's actually a healing of a relationship. For those that are married, that are in recovery, this is really. This is restoring or really maybe even creating intimacy for the first time. It's healing wounds. It's creating a new trajectory for your relationship. And if you're a single person and you're going through this, your relationships will be so different because of the work that you did. But all in all, just to recap, honesty is what we're after. A living and honest life. Being honest about our process, our recovery. But there's a difference between that and a full disclosure. And so if you need to go back and listen, you know, to the episodes we've talked about, disclosure, listen to this one again. Make sure that you're in. In group and that you've done that six months and that work. But then just understand that that the whole point of this is that we're trying to restore relationships. We're trying to get into a healthy place personally and in our relationships and hard things are always going to be hard. It is not going to be an easy process but as the three of us sitting here can say it's 100% worth it, that our relationships are completely different because of it. So Ash, thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing your perspective and appreciate it.

Yeah thanks.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you already are subscribed please write a review. It helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.