179 - Present For The Holidays: Relationships

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Happy holidays. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 179 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

We are farmers. Doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom.

There's a theme emerging.

A theme. I sure hope these podcasts are in that order.

They are.

It'll be odd if you say theme. And it's the first week.

They are. This is the second one.

How many insurance jingles could we do in a row?

Okay, so I'll just say this and maybe. I mean, if I'm ruining something, you can just tell me and we'll cut it out. But the commercial where the guy's like, is that Safe? Drivers say 40%. Let's say drivers say 40% and they just keep looking. Which for me, he's the guy from 24, so that's how I remember him.

Seriously, though, that guy' voice, like, if I could, man.

Oh, so good.

Also makes me think of Avengers, where Chris Pratt starts talking in his deep Thor voice. Yeah. Why are you. I'm not talking differently.

So good. Okay, a few things real quick before we get to the episode. First, subscribe to the podcast. If you're not, don't wait any longer. We're on all the major platforms. Make sure that you subscribe and you will get all the new episodes in your podcast player and give us a review. I. I know I say this every week, but listen to me. It helps. It helps people find the podcast. It helps them know that it's valuable and it means a lot to us. Genuinely, it means a lot to us. I actually often print them out and put them in what I call a treasure file, just because it's something that if I'm feeling down, I can look at these and be reminded we're doing good stuff. This is helpful. So even if you just want to make it into my treasure file, please just do a review for us. Second, follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We are your DesirePDMI. And if you like to consume video content, some of the clips from these episodes are up on YouTube. Just go to Pure Desire Ministries. Just search us there. Okay, so we want to talk about real quick, the last thing before we get into the episode. We have started a new giving campaign that we are titling Stories of healing.

Yeah, and you just mentioned it. Even, like, with the reviews, we have the privilege here at Pure Desire of Hearing from people every week about how a podcast changed their life, an interview they heard sent their marriage on a different trajectory. A group they were involved in rescued them from something. It's amazing to see how God has used this ministry. And as excited as we are about every single one of those stories and the way that it fuels us to keep doing it, we know we're only scratching the surface. I mean, the numbers that are out there when it comes to our sexual addiction and sexual brokenness, and particularly during this season of COVID are honestly worse than ever. And we just have this burden where we say, there's so much work to be done. Lord, would you equip us and help us have the resources to reach more people? And so we're kind of putting a call out to all of you that listen and would say, in some way, this ministry has touched my life. And the stories of healing is our invitation to say, join with us. I mean, you're already with us in terms of your words and your encouragement, but would you be willing to take a little piece of your finances and partner with us on a monthly basis to say, I want to be a part of. Of someone else experiencing healing in the way that I have, or my family or my loved ones? And so we see how even when you make a small donation, I mean, a small donation made monthly adds up over time. And so you might be listening, feeling like, well, I don't have much to give. I don't have, you know, a big, huge savings pot that I can just drop down 20 GS on some.

Yeah, well, me neither.

Yeah, almost no one does, but I'm guessing we could say, boy, at 20 bucks a month, you know, you multiply that over years and decades, you can make a difference. And more than just making a difference, it's how you feel like you're then a part of the mission, because you really are entering into this work with us in your support, in your prayers, and our ability then to track with you as you're a monthly donor. We will send updates and. And kind of keep you in the. In the news, so to speak, of what's happening, how God's using people's donations. So we just want to ask, wherever you're at, whether it's a small amount or a large amount, if you would jump in with us as a monthly donor, you could be a part of the next stories of healing. And we really believe that God can use all of us together to make a difference in this world.

Yep. And so just ask yourself this question. If I were to financially give to pure desire, what stories of healing could I create? So if you want to give, whether it's monthly or if you do also want to just give a one time gift, go to PureDesire.org stories okay, so we are in week two of our series present for the Holidays, and we talked to a relational giant in my mind, Mr. Rodney Wright.

Yeah, I think in this episode we really want to draw our attention to the kind of things we often take for granted. Our families, our spouses, being around people at the holidays. And it's like, it's just what we do at Thanksgiving or Christmas or, you know, this time of year. But really looking strategically to say, how could God use this? And that's a word I think we used a lot today as an opportunity to create growth in my home, my marriage, my family. And there's tons of great ideas here because as we went through it, I think even the three of us were writing down some notes like, oh, that's a good idea. Most of what we don't do in relationships is just because we don't think about it, we're not intentional. So I hope today is just a great reminder and a call for all of us that relationships take intentionality and if we don't take the time to be intentional, we will breeze through yet another holidays and look back and go, ah, I really wish I would have done this or engaged there. So take this as our preemptive call to say, let's be proactive. Let's engage and invest in relationships. So that was a great conversation. I'm excited about this one and really looking forward to it.

Yeah, and Rodney is always a kick, so it's a good one. Enjoy. Rodney Wright, the tender teddy bear himself. Welcome back.

Thanks. It's great to be here. I love when you say that, by the way.

I know you don't actually, that's why I do it. But anybody who knows Rodney knows that it's true. It is true. So the holiday season is still trucking along. Believe it or not, whether you have checked out or are present, it is this season, though often presented as this just joyous time. Enter any funny, heartwarming holiday movie you want. It actually tends to be very stressful and emotional for so many people. This pushes us, a lot of us, to want to run from the unwanted emotions that show up. But as we so often talk about here on the podcast, being spiritually, emotionally and physically present is really key to living in health. So we wanted to start this four week series to Keep going with this four week series to really challenge us all to be present for the holidays. So we are in week two of this series and we want to talk about how to be present in our relationships during the holidays. And Rodney, you are arguably the most relational person either of us know and so you're the perfect guest to talk today. So thanks for being here.

Oh, always an honor to be here.

All right, so again, this idea of the holidays being difficult, I think in so many ways has to do with relationships. So during the holidays, relationships really can be tricky. Why do you guys just personally, as you think about emotional health, physical health, sexual health, just holistic. Why do you guys think it's important that leaning into relationships is key to living a healthy holiday?

Well, I think first of all, we were made for relationships that's just in our DNA. And we were made for healthy relationships and reflecting God and, and God's very nature, father, son and spirit. And so we're made for it. But many times, you know, when I think of the holidays, I think of the song, it's the most wonderful time of the year. But if you're not in good relationship with yourself and you're not in a healthy relationship with others and they're your family members, then sometimes getting together isn't the most wonderful time of the year.

Right.

It can actually be one of the most stressful times of the year, as you mentioned earlier, Trevor. So I think this is really important that, you know, we're taking good care of ourselves and then learning how to have healthy relationships with others during this time. And it can be a good litmus test or hey, where am I at in this? Have I done the work I needed to do and am I caring for myself? Well, and you mentioned about it can stress us mentally, emotionally, physically. There's a lot of things we can feel during this time of year. So it's a good time to just not isolate and give ourselves to, you know, being healthy. Whether first of all, it's self care, caring for this relationship and then saying, hey, how can I show up and work with other relationships in a healthy way? And it also reveals maybe some of the work we haven't done. We've just avoided certain relationships and now it's that time of year again and I'm just going to quote, unquote, put my little time in just to get through this. And I like a quote that says that, you know, the difficulties, our losses, our traumas in our life that are not grieved or processed, they typically turn into some Kind of shame. And we never function well going back into family systems where there's shame or unresolved issues that we haven't just worked through with ourselves or others. So that's why I think they can be triggering.

Yeah. I was thinking of the illustration of a fire, how fire can be very refining of precious metals. It can make better what's there by burning away what's of unimportance or things that are less important. Fire destroys. And I think holidays do, like Rodney said, reveal what's there. And so if there's healthy relationships, it can strengthen them. We have more time together, we make memories, we create traditions. But where there's unhealth, that actually can expose even more of that. And that for many people, I think, is the danger, if you will, about holidays, where we tend to have time off, there's school off, there's expectation to be in family relationships. And if those aren't healthy, we can have a really negative experience or even just be trying to avoid and medicate a lot of that time. So to me, it's kind of the question of how could I look at the opportunities the holiday brings, whether it's in my immediate family, in my marriage, maybe in some extended family to try to work towards health. And like you're saying, Rodney, that may not even necessarily be with another person, because relationships take two. And if another person, like maybe an in law or a family member that you have a strained relationship with, if, if they're not at a place they're really looking to work on that, you may not be able to do much with the relationship, but you could do a lot of work on you and the way that you choose to relate to people, the way that we choose to respond. And so I think it's just an opportune time to look at how am I doing in relationships. And rather than avoiding that and trying to just drink eggnog and watch football until the holidays are over, how could I allow this to be a time where God leads me into something deeper, into myself and with him? And that, to me is the value that can come from a holiday season.

Yeah. To what, Rodney, you were saying at the beginning, the litmus test, if you will. I don't even know how to say that word. Maybe I said litmus test.

There you go.

I don't even know how to spell it.

Okay, Nick probably does. We'll just bank on him if we ever earn a spelling bee. So I think something I learned earlier this year was that spiritual disciplines in and of themselves, and I Think the same is true for recovery work. That is the practice ground. Like, the work that you're doing there is almost like the practice field, but where your health actually gets to play out, like the actual game, if you will, in that sense is actually in relationship, when you're living life, rubbing shoulders with people, having conversations, experiences with other people. And so I thought that was a really good. Just a really good reminder for me that if I think I'm, quote, unquote, spiritually healthy or quote, unquote, sexually healthy because of the work that I'm doing by myself in, you know, in my workbook or in my study of the scriptures, that actually doesn't mean anything unless it translates to how I perform on the field. Perform is not the right word, but you know what I'm saying, like how I play it out in relationships. And so that's what I like. And I wanted to hone in on that just because I feel like you can get a really clear sense of how you're doing based on how you interact, usually with the people who you know and love the most. So being around your family, being around your kids and your spouse, you're going to get a lot of that during the holiday season. And those tend to reveal what's really going on underneath and therefore reveal health or unhealth.

Yeah, sometimes extended family can. Our family of origin can be a source of some of the painful experiences or early traumas that happened in our life. And again, if we haven't worked through that and it's unresolved, it just kind of triggers that and reveals all that again. And so it's not even that, you know, too bad you don't have a perfect family. Well, none of us have that, but it's just about you being healthy and making sure you've worked through that process and you're in a good mind space. And, you know, you talk about mentally, emotionally, relationally. All of that is spiritual. All of that is seen as our spirituality, that our practices can really reveal that we're ready for that. As you say, game day.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it's good, too, to reflect on something. And I know Rodney and I both got to learn about this at one of our PSAP trainings. How typically in our society, we've come to define stress as always negative. But there's. There's two outcomes of stress. That there can be distress, which is negative, but there can also be what's referred to as eustress, and don't ask me how to spell that, but it's It's a phrase that indicates stress that is good. It's tension that leads to a healthy resolve or a way of dealing with it. And I think that's what we want to see about holidays, is there will be stress. There's more activities, maybe more expectations, maybe, you know, to do lists of buying presents or getting to a function. But that stress doesn't always have to be negative if we're able to see it as an opportunity and maybe work towards resolution of some things. So along those lines, as we think about stress and we maybe think about the negative side of what can pull us away from relationships, is there any reason we would avoid certain relationships during the holidays? Is that ever a healthy thing to do?

I would say yes. Like you said, some tension is good. Tension on an aircraft causes the lift on those wings, and you get to a higher elevation. But sometimes there can be distress. And some relationships are toxic, they're unhealthy, they have unresolved issues, or they're just very, very hurtful people. And so I think having appropriate boundaries and discernment is really key when it comes to that. Just some good discernment. And this is where you might want to find some trusted friends or some people that, you know to say, hey, this has been my experience the last few years during the holidays or some of these challenges, and just get some discernment about what's maybe the best way to go about those. Or, you know, sometimes boundaries can be appropriate.

Yeah, I think. I mean, we did an episode not too long ago about boundaries and recovery. And boundaries are extremely important because they help create. Create safety and value in a relationship, but they're very difficult to set because boundaries don't always make everybody happy. And I think about this a lot. Like, I think that's oftentimes, like, to this question, if we set a boundary to not see a certain family member or go to a certain person's house, I think that boundaries in and of themselves can be okay. But if they're used as an excuse to not work toward restoration, I think that that's where it becomes a problem. And I think that that's, to put it not so gently, I think we're working directly against the heart of God, which is to be in restoration, restoring relationships, building bridges back together. However, if you're the only one who's working to create that restoration, that's where I think boundaries tend to show up and in very healthy ways. That if I am working really hard to make sure that I'm emotionally healthy and I have Repented of what I need to. I've. I've sought forgiveness. I'm trying to be in relationship, but the other side is unrepentant, still is stuck in their thoughts and behaviors. For me, I'm not going to keep listen if I'm going to bang my head against a brick wall over and over, I'm going to get brain damage. So like, I don't need to do that anymore. And so I think that, and I don't know how many times, you know, is the perfect time. Like you can still forgive but not be reconciled in relationship. And I think that that's an okay tension to dance as long as we know. I'm working on being the healthiest, most like Jesus version of myself in this. And if that's not met, then I'm only controlling what I can, which is myself.

Yeah.

And that boundaries illustration is actually really appropriate because like we said in that episode, I don't create boundaries in order to control you. I create boundaries to help me stay healthy. And so when we talk about potentially avoiding certain relationships or environments during the holidays, and it shouldn't be to say, well, they're so unhealthy, I can't be around them. Yeah, it's really to turn it towards myself and say right now I'm not at a place where I can appropriately be around that person. Because the truth is, it doesn't matter how unhealthy someone is. If I'm in a really good place, I could be around the most unhealthy person and make wise choices and not be affected by them. But the truth is there's usually a place where I have to be honest about my own capabilities and my own emotional state of mind. So if, if I know like that I have a drinking problem and the Christmas work party environment will most likely lead to me over drinking, I may need to avoid that relational environment to say I don't think I'm healthy enough to be in that environment right now. Or if I know seeing a certain family member will lead to three days of crying afterwards because of the hurt and the brokenness. I might say right now I can't handle being around that person because I'm. I'm just not ready to. So it's less about them and more about me and my emotional health and readiness. So I think we want to keep that in mind because it's not like, well, I'm just going to cut off relationships with bad people because they're bad, but just have that honest assessment to say for me for my family, for my kids, for my marriage. What do we need in order to stay healthy and to have an enjoyable holiday? And if it means there are certain people we're not ready or able to be around right now, that's not a black mark against them. It's just self awareness. It's good self awareness to say we're going to have a better holiday if we don't go to that party. And so let's just be honest and figure out an appropriate way to remove ourselves from that. And look at guarding. This is the last thing I'll say. Look at guarding our most important relationships. Because if I'm sacrificing something with my wife or my kids by going to a certain function or family gathering, then I'm not guarding the right relationships. I'm actually putting like an extended family member above my wife or kids. So as much as possible, these should be conversations to say for us as a family what will help us have the right kind of holiday that we want. And if that means avoiding certain people or circumstances, then you're doing it for the right sort of reasons.

Yeah. I think another just like practical tip I'd give for this specifically is I would involve the input of someone else before making a decision about those boundaries. Mostly because your decision to place a boundary or a brick wall, whatever you want to call it, could actually be negative and just completely emotionally driven. And so I think that inviting input from your spouse or maybe an unbiased third party, maybe a group member, maybe your mentor or pastor, something like that, I think can be really helpful because they may ask questions and reveal that I'm actually just being protective and selfish rather than actually drawing a boundary that is for my benefit. And so I think having someone just to be able to speak into it, it could be really helpful.

And Trevor, let's just talk about that from the perspective of those of us that are in recovery and maybe our journey has caused pain to others. So we have family members that are maybe setting a boundary against us for their benefit. Right. Because of their journey and where they're at. I think it's important that we're just respectful and that we don't try to put false shame or guilt on people, but allow people the grace to work through it and encourage them to get the help that they might need and just be graceful and mature about, hey, whatever is best for you and whatever you need. I care more about you than just my expectations of what a perfect holiday season has to look like.

Totally.

I think that says a lot yeah.

So, next question. In you guys experience, what are the relationships that we tend to maybe ignore or unintentionally avoid or drop during the holidays?

Well, what came to my mind in that question was just, you know, people that are hurting or that are really navigating some negative challenges in their life. I know in our community, where I live here in Coeur d', Alene, we've done a ceremony of remembrance every year. Those are for people in our community who've lost a loved one this year. I mean, I have two friends that I've lost, one closer than another to Covid this year. One a pastor and one an elderly person here in our community that I was dear friends with. And I think sometimes we would want to maybe ignore hurting people or people that this year is not. It's not the most wonderful time. Because this holiday reminds them that my mother, Billy, or my good friend Rick, they're not with me here anymore. And so I just think being mindful of that for some people, this is a painful season for whatever reason. And when you give people time and an ear to listen and consideration during this season, I think it's a great gift that you give them. Even just a shoulder to cry on and welcome their tears and grief. And just being aware that for some they're hurting. And so just being mindful of being present with them and maybe listening. How you could partner with the Holy Spirit to kind of help bring some comfort and meaning to them in this season of their life.

You know, what I thought of when I read this question was the way we take a couple of relationships for granted. I think one is our relationship with God or with Jesus. That because holidays are often very different in terms of our schedule, our routines, who we're around, who's around us, we. We may just get into a bad pattern. Like we get to the end of the holidays and say, I've hardly spent any time alone with God. I mean, it's all supposed to be about celebrating God coming into our world. But if I don't personally take that time, I can just get wrapped up in the good things of the holiday and not grow my own soul in my relationship with Christ. And so I think that's important just to look at, where can I individually maybe pull away even for five minutes, to just celebrate and grow in my relationship with God? And then I. The other one that comes to mind is the relationship we all have with ourselves. I think during the holidays, we tend to ignore healthy choices, sometimes healthy eating habits, sleeping patterns. And I'm the first one that can enjoy a good holiday meal or dessert. So I'm not saying we shouldn't enjoy and indulge once in a while, but if we get into a pattern like for weeks or months where we're eating poorly, not exercising, we really lose relationship with ourself that makes us less able to be in relationship with other people. You know, I think it's significant that Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. And it starts with the idea that I understand my value in Christ and have appropriate self love and value because then I'm able to freely love and give towards you. So I think during the holidays, yes, have fun, celebrate. But just to stay aware of what do I need in relationship to myself so I can be the kind of person around others that I want to be.

Yeah, something our, our growth group, our community group at church, just something I felt like the Lord was kind of shining light on was especially during this year of 2020. One of the relationships that I think got less time than it should is probably marriages. You're stuck at home with your kids, you're in high stress and you're just trying to make do. And what I realized is there's this like distinction, like parenting is going to happen whether you want it to or not, but your marriage won't happen unless you're intentional, the growth in that. And so I think that I know it's easy for me and this is just my personality. When I walk into a room of a bunch of people for a celebration, I'm just like, hey honey, see ya. And then I'm just like bouncing around the room having these conversations, you know, all the while maybe my spouse wants to be next to me and on my arm the whole time. Like there's, there's a safety blanket that can happen sometimes either way. And so I think one of the things to this whole point of this series is if we want to be present, we also have to have our biggest and best teammate there next to us. Like we need to be able to have time where we're debriefing, we're having conversations and in the like, craziness of the season and making sure you have presents and all the things for kids and family that you're actually spending quality time with your wife or your husband. And so I think it's really important to prioritize that. It may not feel like we're ignoring them because they're around, but you can ignore someone who's sitting right next to you every day. So. Yeah.

And a deep Take that to a deeper level. The men should do all the dishes after the holiday meals. Don't ignore the dishes, boys. Okay, Ronnie, but just sit down and I make all. If you're a male species in the right family, we all get in the kitchen and I'm in charge and we just flat get after those dishes. So during the holiday season, whether it's your normal duty or not, I say men do the dishes.

All right, some of you out there needed to hear that.

But I'm going to ask this question. What if the male is the one who's making the meal? Like, I'm just saying, because there can be this, like, stereotype where, like, women are the ones who make the food. Like, in my house, my dad's the one who's in the kitchen. So are you saying that men should both make and do the dishes? Hot take.

I'm saying yes.

Okay, okay.

I'm saying just make it go the extra mile. This year, even if you cook, get those younger. Get the younger Indians involved, you know, get the younger people involved.

That's right.

So if you.

If you don't want to do dishes, don't go over to Rodney's house.

Yeah, don't. If you're a man and you don't want to do dishes, don't come to my house. Exactly.

So a lot of what we've talked about so far maybe assumes some healthy relationships, things going well with the family. For a lot of us, there's places of unhealth, there's family relationships we want to avoid. There's things that make us want to isolate. I mean, maybe our marriages were separated right now and we want to spend the holidays just numbing out and isolating. I mean, there's so many emotional things that come up that can make us want to isolate and numb out. So how could we avoid that during what can be a potentially stressful and emotional season?

I go back to something Trevor touched on briefly was our practices. Maintaining your practices, whatever those routines are that you give yourself to that are self care. I know for me, one of those is just meditation. I try to do a 10 minute meditation every day of just being mindful. There's an app I use called Centering Prayer, and it just gives me a little prayer and it leads me into just a quiet time and then a prayer at the end. I just think our practices. So if you're in group and you're doing your recovery work, men or women, continue to do your practices. Just. Just keep caring for yourself and doing those routines big or Small that. That just show good care for you so you can be mindful during this time.

I think, too, in the holidays, especially if you're in groups, sometimes you take a break. Maybe it's a couple weeks. You know, not. Not every group does, but I know I've been in some groups that have taken a break in the. Maybe the last couple weeks of December. I think it's important to maintain connection. Um, you know, and one of the things, like, I often hear people say, I don't have time for a phone call. If you're on your drive to work or drive home or, you know, you got to go to the grocery store. Like, I can't tell you how many times I've had my headphones in and I'm doing grocery shopping, because we can sort of do that in the pandemic, and I'm having a conversation with a trusted friend. So I think that we just have to find those pockets and still prioritize that connection. Because especially people who are in group with you or people you've done recovery work alongside, because they know you. They know when you know, you're feeding them stuff that isn't real. And I think so it's not just a, hey, bro, how are you doing? You know, you catch the packers game last week? It's not that it can start with that, but it needs to get into, like, how's it going on the home front? Where are you and your spouse at? How are the kids? What is work? Like, how's the emotional? You know, where's the stress at? So I think that having those conversations and connections is important, especially during this.

Time of year, you know, and if you're bold and you're married, go to your spouse and say, during the holidays, when do I isolate? When do I numb out? Because I almost could guarantee you they will say what you don't want to hear. You know, we go to my parents, and you pretty much disappear to the den and just watch football for four hours. And maybe they'll say, I'd really appreciate it if you hung out with us in the dining room. Like, oh, okay. Or, you know, maybe it's when there's Christmas shopping to be done or present wrapping or, you know, whatever it is, your spouse probably has seen your patterns, male or female, and just be willing to say, hey, this year I'd like to stay present and be aware of when I'm just kind of isolating. Would you help me see what I'm maybe not seeing? And then if you're single, I think Your group is that lifeline too, of you're maybe more likely to see your patterns. Oh, everybody's got these holiday gatherings and families and I have nothing and I'm just going to sit home all day and going to them and saying, what are ways that I could engage with people? Maybe it won't be the same as someone who's married, but I recognize my need for community and relationships and I don't want to just avoid it. And so looking ahead and saying, what could I do to stay in relationship, to stay healthy and being willing to ask people in your life that care about you for their input really could be valuable. Yeah.

Yep.

And you know, even though we take some vacations, some of us during the holiday times, we all have technology. So again, I think just being proactive with technology when we are around family during the holiday times and whether it is, hey, we are all going to set our phone aside to do this one activity together, but you know, just being mindful of those things I think are really helpful as well.

Yeah. And I think as we're talking about it, that the line between numbing out and being lazy and self care can be fuzzy sometimes. And so I think really being diligent to identify is this actually make me a better version of myself or a not so good version of myself? And another thing, you can invite your spouse's take on, like when I sleep in until 11:30, am I a better person? You know, that kind of thing. Okay, let's move to the next question. And this may be a little bit redundant, but stick with me. I just, I want us to share perspective on what are some relationships we suggest that people make a priority during the holidays.

Well, I think self care, we've already touched on it, but let's just bring that around. So make yourself a priority if you love yourself. Well, not in a narcissistic way, just caring for you. It's amazing how that spills out into caring for others. So just being mindful of what's going on inside of you and that you're processing that well, and then you can be aware of what's happening with those around you and be more present to help them. Whether it's a helpful moment of navigating something difficult or just a great moment of not seizing, of seizing a beautiful moment that's happening in your family and you were present to it and you got to be a part of that great conversation that led to tears and laughter or I know for some of us, we have had some just amazing family moments during the holidays because it just seems like everybody is showing up present and being real and being honest. And I think those are important.

I was thinking about the way that for a lot of us, the holidays kind of become a barometer of how we're doing in our recovery journey. I mean, especially if we're in that first year, two, three years. There's something about the holidays that can really highlight areas where we've grown. And so maybe that's looking at and saying, with whom this holiday do I want to really see growth? And if it's with our spouse, you know, having conversations to say, you know, I feel like we're growing in our relationship, I want this to be a different holiday than we've ever had before. What does that look like? Or maybe you feel like things are really dialed in there and it's with your parents or a sibling or maybe some in laws to say we've had negative relationships. I, I feel like we're in a different place and I'm really looking forward to seeing some of that growth. And obviously we don't want to set ourselves up for disappointment if we've got too high of expectations. But that's what comes to mind for me is really looking at if we're struggling, if we've been overcoming an addiction or we've been the betrayed spouse and we're moving into healthier places just to look at where do we want to see growth this year? Because let's prioritize those and really look at how this could be different than past years. The other thing that comes to mind, this is a little habit that when I've remembered to do it, I think is a difference maker. But if we're a parent, going to your kids and asking them for input to say what would make this holiday or vacation or break or trip or, you know, whatever you're doing that's maybe unique. Say, what would be special for you? What would something be that you would like to do with mom or dad or us? And really listening because maybe you have assumptions that, oh, we're just all going to be hanging out at home. But. But if you really saw it from the kids perspective, there's maybe some minor tradition you did once and forgot about. They're like, why are we gonna do that thing with the cocoa and the candy canes? And you're like, what? And you know, then you remember it and to do that for them. So I think going to the people you're close to and just asking what would make this special for you? Back to what you were saying, Rodney, and investing in them because it's what they would like, not just what you would like to get out of it.

Yeah.

Hey, my one year, Nick, my family made me do the something shuffle. What's that song that goes to the left, to the left, to the right, to the right. Walk in on yourself. You know, I forget the lyrics, but they were all dancing, and they were like, come on, dad. And I. I was doing the to the left, to the left, you know? You know, but that's what I'm talking about. Being present and being available to do that. Well, I have that dance on video somewhere. I should actually.

I feel like I've seen that.

Yeah.

We should attach that video to the show notes. Probably what I'm hearing you guys say. And I was literally writing it down as you started saying it, Nick, that it. There's a difference between doing things for our kids and being with our kids. And I think that for me, it's hard to make that distinction sometimes because it feels like I am with you. I am. You know, we are doing the holidays together. But in reality, it's. It's more my version of what I want. And that's. That's. And that's really hard for me to do. I come home and do what my kids want to do, because oftentimes it is something that doesn't really sound super fun, but I need to remember that it's not about what we're doing. It's about who I'm with in that moment. And so instead of doing things for, I need to be working on being with my kids. That's what I'm hearing you guys talk about.

Yeah. So continuing on those lines, then, let's give some more ideas or some thoughts for folks on how to get creative during this season. What are some healthy ways that we could invest in those important relationships during the holidays? What ideas are coming to mind for you guys, in addition to the couple of things we've already thrown out there?

Well, yeah, besides doing the dishes and the dance moves, I think another thing for me, and especially the relationships that we really have great value in and we want to see go deeper, is continue to share your invulnerability in where you're growing and what you're learning. Covid's been a tough year for all of us. I mean, I don't know anybody that says this has been the best year of my life. You know, it's been tough. And so I always know that. I always feel attracted to authentic, real, vulnerable relationships. It Has a way of drawing you in and appreciating, you know, that. And I don't mean that by being kind of a downer on everybody about how, oh, woe is me, but just that authenticity that you show up to say, hey, man, it's so good to see you. It's been a crazy year for sure. And here's some of the things we've navigated. And I'm just, you know, I'm grateful to. To have got to the other side or I'm still going through it. But today's a great day to be here to celebrate with. With everybody, you know.

Yeah.

So vulnerability is one.

Yeah. Super good. I think the. For us just kind of our season of life, we just got like out of this, a bunch of debt and now have been in our own place for the first time in our marriage this last year. And you know, what a year to have that stuff. We had a kid, we got out of debt, got into our own Place and COVID 19 but I think one of the things that my wife is so good at this she reminds me, let's start new traditions. Let's create things that we want to be doing in the future. And I think sometimes we get in these old patterns like this is what holidays look like because, you know, X family and Y family do it that way. But it's okay to focus as your spouse, your kids, to just create your own and create some new traditions. And I think especially this year that could be super helpful. Like, you know, things are going to look a little different. Don't just. Don't just grieve that. Definitely do that. But also use that to platform and push you to doing new things that can unite your family and it can be anything. I mean, you know, we started doing a family movie night about a year ago on. That is honestly, it's not a real relational like time quote, unquote, but it is something we all look forward to, you know, something we talk about and we talk about the quotes. We just watched Rescuers down under recently. My son just watched it for the first time and I can't tell you how many times he keeps saying, joanna, there's a razorback in the truck. Like, he keeps doing that line over and over again and it's hilarious. And that that wouldn't happen unless this was a tradition or a rhythm that our family got into. So I think maybe it's a holiday tradition. Maybe it's just a tradition you want to do all year round, but maybe start something new. Just think what can be fun for our family to do in this crazy season and crazy time in our world.

A couple of things that come to mind for me especially, like, if you have kids, be aware that initially you may get some pushback. You know, if I recommend any new idea to my teenage daughter right now, I can almost guarantee you her first reaction, like, oh, come on, that's dumb. And if I'm really sensitive, I'm like, oh, okay, we're not gonna do that. But if I'm aware, like, initially my kids aren't gonna want to do this. But if I'm positive, like, hey, let's just give it a try. We're just gonna do this for an hour. It's something fun we're gonna do. I'm amazed how often the outcome is like, people had fun, they talk about it later. It's their favorite memory. And you're like, do you remember you didn't want to do it the whole time you were complaining? So be aware that you might have pushed back initially, but just keep going. I mean, you don't want to be a pain and just force someone to do something, but try to get people to go along with you. And second, I think manage your expectations because that is another challenge when we're doing something fun or different. If it goes poorly, just be okay with that. That's part of the experience. If you tried to do something as a family and it was a train wreck, that will actually be the funny story five years down the road. So just keep light hearted with your expectations. And then the other things that come to mind is just try to find the things that you do enjoy doing that maybe you've just done alone or with one person and try to build on them. So simple example, I do love the college football bowl season. That's a very me thing. But I got thinking, like, how could this include others? Well, there's all these college football pick Ems. And my kids and my wife could care less about college football. But when I said, Dad's buying a $20 Starbucks gift card for the winner of the bull pick em, they were all in. And we had so much fun with that. And my wife, my wife slaughtered me. I mean, here I've followed college football. She just randomly picking was like one year, she was like 17 for 18 at one point. It was scary.

That's amazing.

But it turned what was usually just dad sitting by himself watching a game here and there into my kids going, oh, who's winning and who? Oh, I picked Washington. And it's a. It was I'll be honest. A little self serving, but it was cool the way it turned into something. And so I'm just thinking also about, like, I know one of my sons really likes Legos. And so this year why not do like a family Lego thing where we've got one hour to build a Christmas scene and get the whole family. Because we got Legos everywhere. Like, so those are the kind of things you could take. Something that probably during the holidays my son and I would build Legos, just he and I. Well, what could we do to build on that and make it a family thing? Turn it into something fun. That's where I'd use your creativity and kind of say, what do we already do? And let's build on it. That's cool.

Yeah, those are great ideas. I really like that. You know, we play a game called Left, Right, Center. I don't know if you've ever played that game, but it's a really fun game with some dice and we just have a dollar.

We'll have to put the instructions to that game on the podcast.

Yeah, the kids could win a dollar or a couple bucks at the end of the thing. And man, for, you know, for the winner to get $30, this is like, you know, Right. It's a big deal. And if an adult wins, we just put it back in the pot and play another round, you know, but it wins. It's over.

So just so just to be clear, pure desire is completely condoning betting and.

Gambling as a family.

Rhythm for relationships and 20 bucks to Starbucks.

Yeah, and manipulation and manipulating our kids to get into college football.

That's right. That's right. I mean, there are worse things for sure. Okay, so I want to just say.

This real quick, but I like Nick, what you said about expectations. And I have a friend that says, you know, if you can let go of expectations and live just with expectancy, what could come out of this beautiful moment? And I think sometimes expectations is where disappointment happens if they're not right to our. Where we think everything should be. You know, whether that's how the meal turns out or how long someone stays or, you know, just whatever it may be, just be aware of that. That could lead to some real disappointment.

Yeah, that's good. Well, guys, let's wrap up our time. Just think through what would be some final encouragement that you'd give our listeners regarding being present in this difficult and often difficult relational season for so many people. What would be some final encouragement?

Well, I just say when you do the dishes, don't put Them, don't put them away where they go, just put them in random spots. Because then they realize, you know, you're not real good at this, you know. Well, you know, I'm just trying, you.

Know, you get fired for the rest of the year.

Oh, no. I just think a lot of things have been covered. Be nice to yourself. And if it's a difficult time, before you even go to that home or to the, with those family members, reach out to somebody and talk it through, Process it. Don't feel like you have to carry all that anxiety alone. Don't hold it the whole season, recognize it, and then say hey to somebody. Could you help me with this? Because here's been the challenge. I think Trevor, you mentioned that earlier in our conversation. It's so helpful to do that. Just be nice to yourself and get the help you need to prepare for this season.

Rodney, to me, what we talked about, practice game, that's almost like the pre game speech. Like, I think about how often you're going to something family related and you're sitting with your spouse in the front seat. You know, that is a great time to have those, like, pregame conversations. Okay.

Right.

What is our strategy when we go? What time are we leaving? What's the code word if things go south? How many drinks are you gonna have tonight? How many am I, who's driving home? Like? And it can be playful and fun, but also can be very strategic. Like, we know walking in, this is the perspective and the attitude we want to bring. And we know that if things get to a certain point we both have agreed on, okay, that's when we'll connect. I'll give you that look, I'll touch your leg twice. Like, whatever it may be to, okay, this is difficult for me. But you walk into it feeling united. And then I think that when you walk into something united, you're much more likely to walk out united. But if you walk in separated, it's going to be tough to unite during and walk out. So I think that, I think that's great. I would just like pregame it, have that pregame conversation.

You know, the thing that comes to mind for me, I think, especially with relationships, the way that we have good intentions and then don't really do anything because it's like, maybe we're listening to this podcast thing, man, I'm going to go be better at relationships. Like, okay, like how? Right. And I think about how Heather's talked about goal setting on the podcast many times and it really needs to be something like three goals at a time, otherwise your brain just can't focus on them. So my advice for every listener would be identify the two or three relationships or the two or three steps you know, would be helpful and, and just focus on those. So maybe you're saying, and I'm going to work on my relationship with my spouse and maybe there's a certain family member and a friend. You're like, there's three people and I have some ideas of what I want to do for all three of them. That would be progress. Or maybe you're thinking, I've got a week off during Christmas and there's three things I want to specifically do with my family and write them down because I think if we can narrow this broad, be better at relationships down to specifically what does it look like for me and something that's realistic that I could actually work on a relationship in that way. I mean, even something as simple as saying, I haven't spent much time with my 12 year old daughter, I'm going to take her out for a breakfast on the week that I'm off work. And you could do that. And if you did, you'd probably look back and go, man, that was a really special time because I made it happen. So it's sometimes those little things, but being intentional to keep it to a number that we can actually accomplish. And if you pick two or three things and you've got those done and it's only mid December, then pick something else. But really try to narrow down this vague relationships thing to say specifically of all the ideas Rodney, Trevor and Nick just threw out there, what does it look like for me? Write those down and then with the help of the Holy Spirit, get to work on them and see what God does.

Yep. And I think that that's such a key part too is trust that God's going to bless the work that you're putting in, because you may put in that time and it's not reciprocated or your spouses didn't get a lot of sleep last night or had a rough emotional experience when you were at that event or you know, like it's not always going to work out, but you can only control what you can control, which is yourself. And so put that work in. And I love that. Allow the Holy Spirit to be the one who brings about the fruit from the work. This season can be difficult, but we just like, be present, be present, be present, be present. Some of you who watch this maybe notice that I got a tattoo on my wrist. The word literally is presence. It is a reminder to be present because I struggle with that. So this episode is, for me, it's one of the best ways that you can move forward in your health is just being present in relationships, as we've talked, is a really easy place to avoid, to isolate, to ignore, to step away from. But God, as Rodney said, made us for relationships even when they're tough, not just when they're good, even when they're tough. So whether it's sexual, relational, emotional, or physical health, being present for the holidays is essential to maintaining our health for the long haul. Rodney, thank you for being healthy and thank you for spending time with us.

Love you guys. Nick, tell your boys to go with the ducks for the Pac12 championship. I would recommend that.

All right, Will do well, doctor.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. You haven't subscribed to the podcast. Just do it, please, for me and write a review. That'd be great.

And we love you guys that listen to these podcasts. And listen, I know it's Christmas time. This is a wonderful organization to partner with and give. We're doing tremendous work here. And I'm telling you, you want to be a gift. This is a great way to give and make it possible to help other people. So on behalf of half of Nick and Trevor and Rodney, God bless you and have a wonderful Christmas holiday season.

Amen to that.

Amen.