181 - Present For The Holidays: Double Binds

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Merry Christmas, you filthy animals. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. I'm so sorry. And you're listening to episode 181 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stemba.

Bye, buddy. Hope you find your dad. Thanks, Mr. Norwal. Okay, so we talk about two movies in one greeting. That's impressive.

That's true. That's true. Listener, first one to email. I'm just kidding. You guys know what movie those are? So there's a little. There's a little tidbit, the beginning of the episode that you'll hear a hot take about Christmas movies. But I love Elf is. I'm just gonna. I think I've said this before on the podcast. I'm gonna say it again. My favorite part. And you cannot argue this.

You can share yours, but you make.

People want to argue. Combative, right? The best scene in that movie is when they say that his brother says, how are we going to get the star on top? And buddy goes, I got it. And then he runs out of screen. Runs, jumps up and just bear hugs the tree. It's the best part in the entire movie. Okay, so you didn't have any. I thought you would have, like a.

Cannot argue this. So. I'm not a combative person, Trevor. I. I have my own opinions about the movie. Right.

I just. I won the argument. There's.

There's so many good parts. How. How could I pick?

All right, few things for you before we get to the episode. First off, subscribe to the podcast if you have not. We are on all the major platforms. You can find us really easy. Just search Pure Desire Ministries and give us a review. If you like what you're hearing, give us a review. It helps other people find. The podcast means a lot to us. Also, follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We are your DesirePDMI and we're also on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. Nick, we are here at the end of the year and I think oftentimes people look for opportunities to be generous and give. And I just want people to understand that, you know, oftentimes when you think about giving to an organization like Pure Desire, it doesn't always sound. It's just not the same. Like when you give to an organization like us, you're not giving to a kid who's in another country. And you get updates from this kid on how he's doing or how their school is going. But we really do want to encourage people to consider the power of a financial partnership or gift with us.

Yeah, I think when we're generous, when we're choosing to be a steward of what God's given to us, and I think we all believe as we follow Christ that that's a part of what it means to give of myself, that at times will include my material resources. And so, you know, the way I look at it, we want to be involved in things that are meaningful, that are making a difference in the world. And that is why, you know, a well in Africa that brings water to a village, it's like, wow, we get that. But at the same time, what I think we want people to recognize is when, when a marriage is rescued from the brink of destruction, when, when someone who's given up on the idea of ministry because they think they're such a failure in their sexuality, when, you know, a wife thinks they have no choice but to leave the marriage because of the pain, when they can hear about a pathway to hope, healing and freedom that brings them back into restoration and into their family, like, to me, that's just as good. You know, it's not as easy to put on a postcard.

Nope.

But it's what we're about is leaning into the sometimes the very messiest places in people's lives and saying, it's not over, there's still hope and there can be a better tomorrow. But for so many people, they still, they don't even know. And that's we hear all the time, like, I didn't even know pure desire existed. And so that's why we encourage people to help because you can be a part of us taking that message to places that right now people just don't know where to turn for help. By the way, we could create more video and do more marketing and create different resources that will meet people where they're at. That's what we're about. And so whether it's, you know, a one time year end gift that a lot of us are in the habit of making or you want to become a monthly financial partner, and in many ways that's better because you actually connect to the ministry in an ongoing way. But whatever it is, we'd love you to join in on this mission in making a difference in our world. Really at a time when this is more needed than ever, as people have really been isolated and online more than ever before, man, it's exposing the weaknesses we can all have in this area. So we would absolutely love it, listener, if you would join with us in this mission and partner with us financially, pray for us, be a part of what we're doing, rep the movement to other people. But yeah, thanks for considering making a year end gift to Pure Desire.

Yeah. And if you want to give a one time gift or an ongoing recurring gift, just go to PureDesire.org give. Okay, so we sat down with the big guy, Rich Moore, which I'll be honest, he's a smaller guy now. He's been losing quite a bit of weight, working really, really hard.

So big guy.

Yeah, the not so he's a really tall guy. We'll call him the really tall guy. We are finishing up our present for the holidays series and he was on to talk about double Minds.

Yeah, sometimes we get the feeling that the holidays are all supposed to be like a Hallmark movie, you know, that yeah, there's a little conflict but you know, in the end it's all going to work out and everyone's going to live happily ever after and eat a sugar cookie in the snow or whatever. But. But the truth is this is for many people the hardest season of relationships. Their sobriety, their recovery, just there are all kinds of stuff, speed bumps we hit. And part of why they catch us so off guard is because we think, oh, it's, it's the holidays. And we just think it's going to be blissful and we're going to have all this fun. And there are fun aspects, but it's those unexpected speed bumps or double binds that are what's tripping us up. And so I feel like today that's what with Rich's help we try to identify is what are those places that cause us problems and why? Because if we can see them coming, then with the help of God and others and our group or our spouse, our families, we can really navigate the season a whole lot better and, and maybe let go of the perfect Hallmark movie expectations. But at least find a better, healthier holiday for us and for our families.

Yeah. And we unpack what it looks like to identify double binds and how to process them, who should be involved. And so it's going to be a helpful episode as we are getting closer here to Christmas. So enjoy. Rich. Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas, Nick.

Merry Christmas.

Hey, good to be here.

What does that say that I co host won't say Merry Christmas back to me?

I'm just thinking of all the listeners that will listen to this after Christmas or at a different time of the year entirely. And now they'll know I'm on their side.

Oh, my gosh.

It could be next Christmas.

It could be. Yeah. Yeah. If that's you, listener, you're way behind. Okay, so we're just now reaching the pinnacle of the holiday season. Christmas is only a couple days away at the release of this episode. And contrary to how most of us grew up thinking and I, I was thinking about Home Alone Christmas Vacation, Elf is a great Christmas movie. Real quick, hot take. What's your favorite Christmas movie of all time?

Ooh, Christmas stories. Got to be up there.

Okay, I, but I don't know that I, I mean, we do. We, we do have a tradition of watching Elf every year, and that's about the only movie that we pull out with the kids. Home Alone is also way up there. So I'd have to think about favorite, though.

I don't know. Die Hard. Okay, so the holiday season.

Still not a Christmas movie. That'll be another podcast, Trevor. Another podcast.

Okay, so the holiday season oftentimes, even though in movies, music, culture, it's portrayed as this really fun and joyous and everybody gets everything they want type of season, it's usually very stressful, very emotional, whether or not we're even aware of that. So we find ourselves wanting to run from unwanted emotions, experiences that we encounter. But as we so often talk about on this podcast and in everything that we do, being spiritually, emotionally and physically present is key to living healthy. So we're in week four of the four week series present for the Holidays. And today we are talking about an old friend of ours that we've talked about a few times on the podcast. We're going to talk about Double Binds. Double binds. No comments. Great. Okay, let's jump in. Must have been the Die Hard comment. Okay, so we talked about, as I just said, we talk about this a lot on the podcast. Double Binds. It's a part of our group resources. It's a part of really like I'm going through genesis process. It's in a lot of recovery stuff. Double binds. Let's define it again. What is a double bind?

Well, I just happened to get a handy definition instead of using my go to for so long, which we can.

Also use your go to later if you want.

Yeah, but I, I thought this was a good definition. It's basically a situation in which a person is confronted with two demands or a choice between two undesirable courses of action.

I remember Bob Vandermeer. I think on it was one of our very first number episodes. Yeah. Four or five I remember he said, damned if you do, damned if you don't. And then I made a joke about having to put the explicit tag next to the episode. But that's what it is, right? Damned if you do, damned if you don't type situation.

Yeah, it's. It's like the outcome on either direction we choose is hard, negative, difficult. And sometimes it may give the illusion that, well, there are only two options, but that's maybe the active options. I can either do this or not do this. What most people who are dealing with an addiction struggle with is they end up doing neither, which becomes a choice in and of itself. It becomes a further form of avoidance and actually does not ever resolve the double bind. It only amplifies it. So even if we feel like, well, I'm just going to choose neither now you're into some form of procrastination, avoidance, isolation, whatever. And as we know, that never makes our problems better. So it's that need to look at. I've got to make a choice here and I, I can't just avoid it. I've got to choose something. And so then that can help us see what is the, you know, as, as the worksheet says, the right thing to do is often the hard thing to do.

Yeah.

And we know it's the right thing to do. We just need maybe some help, encouragement or support in making the right choice.

Yeah. And I think of too, like, the more I've thought about double binds that you are modeled this in some ways with your family. Like when you see your family going through, or, you know, your mom or dad or maybe some of your older siblings are going through a difficult time. Some of this is modeled where it's just like, ah, I just, I'm just not gonna think about it. I'm just not gonna handle it. Or I'm avoid. Like we don't actually, when we get into double bind, say, I am going to avoid this and then do it like it just ends up happening. But as I'm learning, there are things from my family that I picked up that were implied, not necessarily taught. And so that's something to just pay attention to as well, because you may have some family of origin that's catering to this too well.

And I think if you just, if you, if you live a life where you don't have. What's the word I'm looking for, Direction, everything you do is a double bind. I mean, if you haven't, like you said, anybody modeling it, you don't know. I mean, you know Right from wrong. But obviously I choose to keep acting out because that's easier than getting help. So you're, you're just living a double bind in every decision you make.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So as we talk about our emotional health and our sexual health, how do double binds impact our health in those areas is.

Kind of like what I was just talking about. I think if somebody isn't in touch or understand what their sexual health is about or their emotional health, they just don't have a clue.

Yeah.

Then every decision is they're going to make the wrong. Not that they'll make the wrong decision, but more than likely they're just. It's easier to sin than it is to totally. To, to do the right thing.

Right. And then even in that when you know you're not doing the right thing, you get a sense of shame that you're like dumping on yourself, which then just perpetuates the cycle of acting out.

Yeah. And then you just keep. I mean you just keep getting deeper and deeper and deeper until you, you crack. And that's the tough part is, is people. One underst. They don't. Just don't understand. So they don't understand what any. Anything regarding health looks like.

Yeah.

One, because they've never had it modeled to them. So they're not going to ask for help because they think, well, their friends are doing it, my family did it.

Right.

My co workers are doing it, so it must be normal.

Yeah.

When We've already mentioned the genesis process, but Michael Dye has a comment in there and I'm paraphrasing, but he says if we are routinely facing our double binds, the probability of relapse will drop to almost zero. That idea that we're facing difficult decisions, we're facing the pain and if we do that, we're going to be moving towards health growth, community, relationship. But it's in avoiding those decisions or in making the. Taking the easier path, the way around, the avoidance path that as we're saying it just amplifies our addictions and our struggles because those problems don't go away.

Yeah.

They get worse. And a decision that wasn't made today is maybe twice as hard now tomorrow. And so it's, it's that choice for health. To say, if I will face these things and do it with wisdom and encouragement, I. I can really help myself out and people I love, I can help them out a lot in the long run.

And if you're running away from a small problem that you have and that running away causes the problem to get bigger, you're not going to start running toward that bigger problem. You're just going to keep running harder the other direction. Yeah. So what sort of unique double binds do you guys see showing up in the holidays? Because we know this is like, not this, not that there can't be joy, and this isn't a fun season. It very much can be, but like we said in the intro, it can be and tends to be very stressful. So what are some unique double binds, I guess, that would come up in the holiday season?

Yeah. I think just because it's a Christmas episode, you know, we're lucky we get a whole stocking full of double binds. You've got family issues. You've got. How much money do I spend on my kids and my wife and my parents and, oh, I gotta eat. Eat five meals at five different people's houses, and I gotta do this.

They're only two hours apart. Right.

So it's like, how. So your every decision around the holidays, it's like, okay, I got to spend. Yeah, here's an example. In our family, like, we have like, 11 grandkids, I think. Yeah, 11. You know, it's like, well, if you spend $40 on this one, you got to spend $40 on this.

Right. What's fair is fair.

And it's hard because, like, you know, I might see something like, well, that's 80 bucks. Well, then I got to spend 80 across the board. Well, so every decision, and it's like, okay, or whose house do you go to first for dinner? You know? Yeah, that kind of stuff.

Totally. Yeah. I. I think of some examples like that, that if I choose to go to that gathering, whether a family thing or a work party, maybe, I know I'm likely to get triggered or embarrassed or picked on or attacked, you know, whatever kind of relational issues you maybe have with someone. So that'd be one choice. But the other, if. If I don't go, I'm maybe going to hurt someone that I didn't show up. Maybe my parents are offended. I'm. I'm letting someone down. So it feels like I get hurt if I go, and I hurt people if I don't go. So what's the right choice here? A double bind that a lot of people face around the holidays is that they're home more. So there's the positive side of I'm home and I have this time off, but it also means I'm home and I have this time off, and maybe I don't always use it well, or I Don't have great relationships with people that now I'm spending more time with. And so I don't want to not use, like, if I've got holiday pay or vacation days and we need to use them that like, well, I want to be home, but how do I do that in a healthy way? Some other things that maybe we don't think about enough, maintaining some personal health during the holidays, you know, going to group is one more activity. Maybe in the middle of the holidays you're like, I just don't have time, but that's actually what you need. So now I've got the double buy into my schedule of making healthy choices versus all of the other demands that are on my time. So there, there's just any number of things that if, if we can look at where I feel stuck, and that's in our groups. What we really try to encourage is to just ask, where are you feeling stuck? Because if you're stuck, it's probably because there's a double bind. And if you can name the double bind with people that you care about and that love you, then they can help you work through what is the right choice to make here.

Yeah, this tends to happen around Thanksgiving and Christmas for me, and this is just maybe a little bit lower level 1 than some of those ones that are with family and relationship. But, but there's always really good food that's not good for you at these places. And for me, food has always been something that is really easy for me to use to cope. And everyone said in the world, amen, right? But what I have realized is that if I know that I'm going over to someone's house or family member's house and we're gonna have all the carbs and all the sugar, right? I know that it's going to be stressful for me because there's probably not going to be enough there for me to eat, to stay on plan or to stay, you know, in the health that I want to stay, that's going to cause me to be stressed and then that's going to actually cause me to want to eat all the carbs and all the sugar even more. But then there's the shame that I feel that I'm being high maintenance or it could just be eat, just relax like. So for me, I always end up facing this internal double bind of how I manage really not meeting maybe expectations of some people. And then also how do I maintain living what I know to be healthy for me when not everyone else feels the same way? About their own. Not that they're being unhealthy, eating all the stuffing because, like, you go, bro, eat that. Like, it's so good. Right? But I think that there's that comparison. Like, as you can kind of tell, there's just a lot. I don't even know if I could tell you what the exact double bind is. I just know that either way I turn, it feels like it's damaging.

Well, and I'm facing that. That's going to be my huge double bind this holiday season because literally, I'm down £84 since July.

So I have done a lot of hard work, man.

I have a goal. I want to be at least £100 by the end of the year. Like you said, everywhere you go, there's going to be everything cooking eat that you can't eat. And I've done really good. But I could tell you it's. You can already smell it when you go to places.

It's horrible. I can smell it right now. We're sitting at this table, right? Absolutely.

Yeah. I was thinking about examples, too, for addiction and recovery. You know, there's a lot of family relationships where kids are moving between homes and a spouse can feel like, well, if. If I. If I draw a boundary and stand up for my parenting rights, it's going to cause friction in that relationship and make things worse. But if I don't, I lose time with my kids, and they might. My ex spouse might keep walking all over me, and that's a double bind. Or we could even be in a double bind where we're not going to get to have the kind of Christmas we wanted to because our addiction has come to light. And so wanting to maybe wallow or isolate or just kind of give up and disappear can be a real temptation. But maybe we know I need to stay in some community with family or people that care about me. But it feels uncomfortable to have to show up to that get together. Like, where's, you know, where's your wife? Or where's your husband? Or why aren't you guys together if you're in the middle of it? Those are very real things that come as a byproduct of our struggles and our addiction coming to light. So I think, again, just making sure you have people around you that really are looking at what would be healthy. Because the double bind, what we're really trying to emphasize in this episode, it's not like there's an easy way and a hard way. It's going to be hard either direction. It's Just picking what kind of hard. Do I want the hard that leads to more pain and more difficulty or will I face the difficulty that moves me towards growth, health and relationship?

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's a good, I think that's a good thing to just remember is that health is going to always be difficult. Making those decisions is always going to be difficult. And as you already said, it's easier to be unhealthy than it is healthy.

Yeah. So a lot of what we're talking about does revolve around people and family relationships. And in those double binds there's not always an easy way out. I mean if you've gone to your in laws for a few days, you don't just leave, you know, or maybe you need to, I don't know. But what I'm trying to point out is there's not always real clear cut. We'll either do A or B. It can feel like how do I navigate this? So what are some healthy ways when it comes to family, relatives, dinners, get togethers that we could handle? The double binds that come up.

Yeah, I was just thinking about that question is like especially if you have a big gathering, it's a little easier to step away if there's a conversation that's triggering because you can why everybody else is having a discussion. You can go, hey, I'm going to go play with the kids. You know, so you, oh, you're not disengaging quote from family. You're just going a different area.

Yeah.

And then I think as we become healthy it is, it's okay for us to say, you know what, I'm just not going to respond to that and make a choice at that moment to not engage in the conversation. And if it keep, if, if the conversation keeps, they keep trying to draw you in, then you just say, you know, this isn't a good time for me to have that conversation and you know, be honest and, and if you have to walk away, you have to walk away and because you know, kind of the last question, if it's healthy for me, if I make a choice that is a healthy choice for me, it might hurt somebody else. But my choices, the way somebody reacts has nothing to do with me. If, if it's, if it's best for me and my family, I can't worry about the way that they're gon.

Yeah, we talked about this already in this series but I think like a pre game approach. Right. Like you are preset plans for when we go here because my guess is you already know the situations, they're going to trigger you. Right. Like, we tend to be around the same people every year, and we tend to maybe tiptoe around some of the same difficulties, conversations, dynamics. And so if you already know the triggers, like, that's where. And Heather talks about it a lot on staff, that mental rehearsal is so key. And like, listen, you have pockets of the day, like, while you're in the shower, it's a great time to think, maybe that's the time, maybe the day of that party, you're in the shower and you're running through maybe even out loud, the conversations, you know they're going to be triggering. So when they do time, they do come and they do happen. You already know what you're going to do. You already know how you're going to respond. And so I think using times like that, and I said this, I think a couple episodes ago, if you're going somewhere with your family or your spouse, like, talk about it in the car, process it together, because you want to walk into that situation united with your team members, but then also knowing that I already have a plan for when this stuff comes up.

Yeah, I think the biggest key in my mind is being honest about your needs. And if. If that's a need, like for a spouse to have some emotional protection or support, you know, if you're going into, let's say, an environment with your family where, you know, your mom starts to attack you and you really need your spouse's support to just be a team in that, just like you're saying, to talk about that ahead of time, say, here's what I need from you. Or maybe you're traveling to family over the holidays and, you know, the. The travel is going to be tiring. You're going to be kind of stressed out, and that will really make you susceptible to being triggered or to relapse. So being willing to say to a group member in a phone call or to your spouse, if you're at that level of communication, to say, I know, here's some needs I'm gonna have. I need to get exercise. Cause that'll keep me healthier. I'm gonna need to. I need to make sure we can sleep in a room where the kids won't wake us up, you know, first thing in the morning. So could we make this sleeping arrangement? Or if. And sometimes it's hard to be honest about our needs, but I think if we analyze it and realize that this isn't about me being selfish, it's about staying healthy and making sure this is a good experience for everyone. Those conversations are usually well received by others.

Yep. So I don't know if we've actually had this question, even though we've talked about double binds quite a bit, but give me some practical examples. When we handle a double bind in a healthy way, we made that. Right. But very difficult decision. What are the positive outcomes of that?

Well, the one closest to you, your wife or kids or whatever, they're the ones that are going to be directly impacted by our decision. So, you know, if you have, even if. So if you have a safety plan in play or just healthy boundaries and you stick to those boundaries, even though when there's triggers and whatnot and your wife looks at you and with that look of just say good job, you know, that kind of thing, the affirmation. Because it would be so easy to just give in and follow everybody's kind of track or whatever when you get a bunch of people around the table talking and, you know, gosh, this year, politics, I mean, that's going to come up on just about everybody's Christmas dinner.

That's the double bind. I'm not willing to face this.

Yeah. So it would be so easy to get drawn into that.

Yeah.

Whatever it is. And, and if you have, like you said, going in with a plan, the ones that you go walk into that house with or a party or work party, the ones that you have to worry about are your spouse. And like I said earlier, I can't control how other people are going to react. My concern is making the right choice, which is going to affect my immediate family. And if everybody else is offended. Yeah, we can't do much about that.

Yeah. I think at the same time, it's good to realize a lot of people may not notice the good work we're doing. You know, so at family gatherings, maybe we choose to leave earlier so we get to bed at a good time and no one goes, wow, great job for you. It's just like, I left early, no big deal, and people move on. And so some of these are things that maybe we are choosing to do either for ourself or with our spouse because we know it's what's needed. And that is one of the outcomes, though, is making it through the holidays with health and sobriety intact. I. I can't tell you the number of guys I've said, you know, like, prior to being in group that they don't believe they've ever made it through, like a holidays without some relapse at some point just because of the change of schedules and being alone or being in different environments or places where there's no accountability software on the Internet and there's like, it's just been like clockwork. Sooner or later there was a relapse. And so that celebration with your group of being able to come back in January and say, we went on a trip to my in laws and I didn't relapse, I didn't blow up in anger. Okay, absolutely. Getting to celebrate with your group, I think is a good thing. And if you're not in group, I really believe that's the positive outcome, is just seeing, oh, when I faced hard things for the right reasons, it led to good outcomes. There's kind of a principle of you can either face a little pain now and have a lot of pain later, or you can face the hard pain now and things get better. It's like, better now or better later, what's your choice? And double binds is like, I'm going to face the hard stuff now, so it will get better later. And I think that's the fruit you'll see is we made some difficult choices, maybe in a relationship, but as a family, we're doing better. And so I chose the greater good for myself or for my family. And just taking time to recognize that and see this was a good choice in the long term, even if in the moment it maybe felt uncomfortable or difficult.

Yeah. One of the things that comes to mind off what you're saying, Nick, is I remember hearing Wayne Grudem theologians say it that with obedience to the Lord, there's a delayed gratification where when you sin, there's that immediate gratification and there's shame and guilt later. But if you do the right thing, you obey the Lord, you're not going to feel it up front, but that long, that long run, that long term, you are going to feel better. Another thought on this question is, and depending on where you're at in recovery, I think this is probably important regardless, but especially at the beginning, creating momentum in your recovery is really important and being able to identify those because I think what you were describing could be also like a mile marker. Like, I made it through the holidays without a relapse. I stayed sober. And that might be the first time maybe you walked out of that family gathering without swearing at your dad or, you know, you didn't freak out at your kid. That's, that's my commitment to change this holiday. Don't freak out at my kid while I'm at, you know, this party. So I think that understanding that momentum carries, like, in. In everything. And so you want to kind of ride those waves as they come, but then also identify that as a mile marker. I made the right decisions here. And so when you're down the road a little bit and you're starting to think, man, I don't know if I'm actually that healthy. Feels like things aren't really going in the right direction. You can turn around and be like, oh, yeah, mile 22. That was that first year, and that's what I remember. I felt like I was in this really difficult situation. I made the right decision. Okay. I can see where I'm at now, and I'm not where I was, and I still made decisions that were healthy there. So I think that can be super helpful in recovery. And we just got to. We got. We have to decide to pay attention to that, because I don't think that we, especially in recovery, I don't think that we think those kind of things are as big that I didn't yell at my kid or I didn't overeat, but those things can really add up.

Yeah.

Yeah. Good. So let's talk about the not if, but when we encounter double binds during the holidays, who should we talk to them about? Who do we go to? How can we verbalize the kind of things we're facing? Or is it better to just kind of make these decisions on our own and manage as best we can?

Maybe don't tell the person who is your double bind that they're your double bind.

I want you to know I'm only choosing to see you because it's better.

Exactly.

Yeah. I think, I mean, your first one, if you're in group, obviously the guys in your group and I just made a note like, call, call, call, call, and keep calling.

Yeah.

And then, you know, obviously that if your wife isn't your double bind, obviously, you know, talk to your spouse.

Yeah.

Because the holiday season, the double bind that I have, if depending on where we go is really the same double bind she has, and we may not realize. We may not realize we both have the same double buying, because it's like, we really may not want to go there. We may not want to do this. We may not want to go on this trip, we may not, you know, that kind of thing. So we might both be feeling the exact same thing. But if you don't talk about it, then you don't know. And then one's just going to say, oh, because I know you want to go, I'll Go. But if she doesn't really want to go and I go because I think.

She wants to go, that just breeding ground for, like, bitterness and arguments. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I think just having those healthy conversations ahead of time and I would say kind of step back a little bit on the, the momentum you talked about is especially for these new guys that are men and women are starting groups in September, in the fall. Gosh. Well, great momentum going into the holiday and to be able to have this episode for them to say, hey, these are things you, you. Not that you will have them, but more likely you're going to experience them.

Yeah.

So.

And that's definitely a danger that around the holidays, depending on when your group meets, there may be a week here or two weeks where your group does not meet. And I always try to communicate that doesn't mean we're out of touch from each other because we almost always have either a WhatsApp chain or a texting message chain or something where as you're going into that holiday party, you could just say, hey, want to remind you guys, my commitment to change is, you know, this about my eating plan or this about this relationship or how I'm going to use my phone or computer and just reminding the group in a text. Like, suddenly for me, it eliminates that feeling like I'm doing this alone. It's bringing in that community that my group's behind me. And even if they're spread across the country and I'm not going to see them again until January, that feeling of other people know my commitments and are rooting for me, that's a real difference maker. And I know I've reached out during holidays, like, hey, I'm up late, I'm by myself. I'm triggered. Just ask me how I did in the morning and, you know, and getting messages like, hey, praying for you, praying for you. Like, yeah, that can be a real difference maker. So encouraging just to reach out to your group even if you're not in the normal meeting routine.

Yeah.

And the other thing that comes to mind is just what you were saying, Rich. If there are other people that are likely facing that same double bind, you know, so maybe you have a sibling that you both have the same issues with. Another family member being able to say to them, like, hey, I know we've had issues and I just want you to know my plan for Uncle Jim or whoever it is, I'm going to respond this way. And if that doesn't work, I'm probably need to take. I just wanted you to know. And. And they might go, that sounds like a great plan. I think I'll try to do that, too. Or I can watch how it goes. So if you realize there's people that are kind of in that same boat with you, sharing with them can actually be a real encouragement to maybe some steps they need to take.

Yeah. And ultimately what you guys are saying is that double binds, the way that we handle them, should be in and around community. That, that it's not something that you have a double bind. You succeed, and then you don't tell anybody about it. Like, you need to have these conversations. You need to invite people in. All right, so as we wrap up this one and wrap up this series, really, what are some final tips that you guys would have for people? Stressful season. Lots of things going on. On top of the year 2020. Because just spoiler alert, this was recorded in 2020. How do we be present and handle those double binds in the season?

Yeah, that's a good question. You mentioned running a little bit ago.

And.

And I think it's so easy just to not face the pain and face the issues and just bury them in a bunch of presents this year. You know, just, you know, try to put on a happy face and smile like nothing's going on.

Yeah.

You know, it's. So instead of running from them, you just, I, boy, if you could just take them head on, knowing that, okay, it's going to be tough. These are the decisions I'm going to. May have to make. And this is my plan. You know, you talked about having a plan, you know, and then including your spouse in that plan. And, and just going in ahead of the game saying, I know exactly what I'm going to face.

Yeah.

Because like I think you said, Trevor, earlier, that we know who's all going to be at dinner.

Right.

And you know, the topics at dinner. So it's like, okay, well, I know this is going to happen, but here's what I'm going to do. And if I feel uncomfortable, I'm just going to get up and leave, you know, and politely, you know, I said, I think just politely excuse yourself. And from. From that conversation to say, I'm going to go hang out with the kids.

Yeah.

You know, but not to run away from that.

Right.

But just to know that I'm in a spot where I can make a healthy decision. And again, my decision to make a healthy decision in that moment may not, you know, sit well with others, but my wife and my kids are sure going to appreciate it.

Yeah, it's ironic that you said not to run because I would say running is one of my tips, like physically get some exercise, get out of the house, do something for self care for me for it's running other people. It may be just a walk, it may be something fun with a friend thinking about what are those self care things? That's always an important piece. But the other thing I would say, and this applies I believe, to those that are recovering from addiction or those that are the betrayed side. We all have those areas that we would kind of personally define as our relapse. Whether it's pornography or maybe exploding in anger or disappearing into a hole of our negativity or depression. Like just to ask the question, if you were to look at the next eight days until New Year's or whatever time you listen to this and say, what would be if I were to relapse? When is it most likely to happen? When and where? Like, because most of us know our patterns and where we're headed well enough that we could kind of say, well it'd probably be at my in laws because I end up sitting alone a lot on my phone and this happens and okay, well what can I do? If, if we can identify when or where we're most likely to relapse, we can also identify the double bind that's with it.

Yep.

Because in that scenario it might be, I'll be really tempted at this place where I'm on a device without Internet access and my double bind is I could tell my spouse about that and ask for their help and putting on accountability software. But that can be embarrassing and open up a bunch of questions. Or I could choose not to do that and be stuck in that trigger all over again. So you've just identified the double bind that made it likely that you could relapse. So I think that's the biggest encouragement again, whether you're on the addiction side or the betrayed side, just to say if, if I'm going to hit a real speed bump in the next week, what's it most likely to be? And then to try to identify what's the double bind around that, that could help me be proactive to address it and have a better outcome.

Yeah, mine I don't think is a tip. It's more of just a perspective that pain doesn't actually ruin the season. Like if you experience pain, it doesn't ruin the season. Because this season, whether you're aware of it or not, is never pain free. But you being in health will make the season Better. Like it'll be better because there'll be less tension at the house, you'll probably freak out at your kids less, you'll probably maintain health, you know, healthy self care. You may not find yourself in those triggering pockets that you tend to have. And so instead of trying to have a pain free holiday season, what if you faced the pain and managed it in healthy ways so that you actually end up enjoying it more than you would if you were just trying to run away from it. And so I think just keeping that perspective, that this will never be a pain free season and it will never be a perfect season because there's no such thing. I've never had a perfect Christmas. Have you guys had a perfect Christmas before?

No.

No.

Sorry, I thought that was a rhetorical question.

Okay, perfect. So I think that that's just important, keeping that perspective, that it's not a matter of if pain will be there, it's a matter of managing it in a healthy way so that the season will go a lot better than it could. Okay, so that is it. We have wrapped this four week series on being present for the holidays in life, especially during these holiday seasons. Double binds can in so many ways feel like just whack a mole. They keep showing up and I mean, maybe you may even be in a spot where you said, rich, that all season long it's just double binds. That's all you're in is in a double bind. And we've already talked about it so much here, we can't run away from them if we want to stay in health. And so how we identify, we process and we handle these holiday double binds will have a direct correlation on how healthy we are this season. How often you do or don't relapse has as much to do with double binds as it does anything else. So stay aware, be present, keep your eyes out for those rock and hard place situations and ask yourself what's the difficult decision or right thing that I'm avoiding? And. And do the right thing. And lastly, just be in community. Don't do this alone. That's not how it works. And remember that whether it's sexual, relational, emotional or physical health, being present for the holidays is essential to maintaining our health for the long haul. Rich, Merry Christmas again and thank you for being here. Wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you are someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.com org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you already are a subscriber, please write a review. It helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.