184 - Groups For Young Women

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What is up? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 184 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Light bulb.

I have no idea.

It's probably a movie I've used multiple times. Not Elf, but another movie that's high, high up on my list.

Okay.

You don't know. Cartoon.

Toy Story.

Animated. Steve Carroll, main character.

Oh, that's right. That's right. Despicable Me.

Despicable Me, yeah.

Which.

Okay, I have an idea. And I just. There's something about the way he says light bulb. The funny thing I told you this, that I feel like this is deja vu. That I. I feel like I've used that greeting before, but I cannot find that we did. And so this is a little insight into my world for our listeners. Like, I recently went and listened to the intro for our last 25 podcasts, trying to find it, and when I couldn't, it's like, well, I know it hasn't been more than, like, six months, so I just decided somewhere I thought I used it and I hadn't. But if our. If any listener finds another podcast with that same greeting and lets me know, like, I think I better send them a mug or something, because there is this mental thing in me where I'm like, I feel like I'm missing something, but maybe not so interesting. I'm having a light bulb about light bulb.

So it's interesting you bring up that movie because I just had a conversation the other day about our fascination with secondary characters like Tuck and Roll in A Bug's Life. You look at the Minions, you look at the aliens in Toy Story and our fascination with those. And so I have some theories that I'm going to start playing around with, but the Minions are my favorite.

The.

They're literally my favorite secondary characters in any movie ever. They're just so good.

So on this podcast, Trevor, which of us would be Gru, and who's the Minions?

I want to be the brother that.

Gru meets in Despicable Me 3. He's got the long hair and something's, like, super envious. That is one of my favorite parts in the Despicable Me trio.

Yes.

So, great movie. If you haven't watched any of those, check them out. Okay, so today we had Sarah Peters on to talk about groups for young women. And this is something that we know statistically is the highest growing rate of porn use is college age women. And so we really want to address what does Pure Desire offer. And so we had her on to talk about our resource behind the Mask.

Yeah.

And for some of our listeners, this might be a light bulb kind of moment because we want to continue to create that awareness that lust, pornography, sexual addiction is not a men's issue. And traditionally, especially I think in churches, we've treated it that way. You know, men are wired this way, men have this problem, but women don't. And the truth is, women are struggling as well. Maybe not in the exact same ways, maybe not to the same rate, but definitely a struggle that we need to be aware of and make sure we're not stigmatizing, particularly at a young age, those women that are finding themselves in the middle of some battles, that maybe they didn't expect that, that they need resources, they need ideas, and they need mentors, women who can come alongside of them to say, you're not alone, you're not in some kind of freakish other category, that we can't help you. There are resources available, and I think Sarah does great job today just talking about how the resources work and what role we might play as parents, as mentors, as a youth leader, or volunteer in a youth ministry, how we can be a part of the solution in this area. And I think it's just really encouraging to hear her talk and her passion is. Is really obvious. So I'm excited.

Yeah. So we've got a good episode for you. A few things real quick. If you're not subscribed to the podcast, do it. You can find us on all the major platforms, and if you give us a review, it helps other people find the podcast. Also, if you've been a listener for, I mean, you decide however long, we have a survey that we want to know more about you. If you go to PureDesire.org pod survey, you can fill that out and we'd love to get to know more about you. Second thing, follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. We are earedesirepdmi and we are now putting full episodes up on YouTube again. All the angels said amen. You can just search Pure Desire Ministries and then, Nick, we're really excited to announce a new virtual event coming to you, Whoever you are. Listener March 5th and 6th. It's the virtual Pure Desire Groups conference. Why don't you tell the people about it?

Yes, this is content we're super excited about. You know, we got to share it. In the fall of 2020 in Dallas, Texas. And this groups conference, our vision and we still hope this happens one day, but that these would be regional in person events people could come to. But the way the world is, it's like we didn't want to wait for people to have access to that content when we could actually do them live. So we said, hey, for 2021, let's do this virtually. And the heart behind it is to say if you are in a group, this conference was designed for you. We believe that it will maximize your group experience. It will help you understand at a deeper level what's going on in your own heart, mind and brain, whether you are the struggler or the one being impacted by someone else's struggle. And if you're a group leader, I think it's just going to give you more tools and ideas and a greater sense of what is it look like to lead my group. Well, and so there's what I love about it, there's a lot of variety of content from kind of the vision philosophical side to the very nitty gritty nuts and bolts of like how do we handle this in group? And so again, whether you're in the group or the group leader, we designed this for you. And so if you're listening and you're in a group, I hope you'll go to the webpage, you'll check it out and you'll consider attending because you can watch it live with us, right?

Yep.

Or you'll also have content to those sessions for a number of weeks where you could watch them one at a time if you need to. So whatever method people use to consume the content, I just think it's going to be a huge shot in the arm for their group experience and the transformation that they're looking for.

Yep.

So you can go to PureDesire.orggroups. conference I'll say that again, PureDesire.orggroups-conference for more information. And you can register for this virtual event. Tickets are currently $59 and it's $19 for any additional viewer who wants to watch on the same screen. So they would need to have that manual is what that is.

It's digital manual.

So $19 for that. And we are excited to see you on March 5th. All right, now here is our conversation with Sarah Peters on our student resource for women behind the mask. Sarah Peters, thank you for being on the Pure Desire podcast for the first time.

Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here today.

We are going to be talking through a resource called behind the Mask. And this is a group that we have for female students who are battling porn, sex, love addiction. And you have experience leading these groups. And obviously, Nick and I do not have experience because we don't think that that would technically be appropriate, even though we know it's in the resource. We wanted to talk to someone who has been through the resource a number of times. And from what I've heard, this is like your favorite Pure Desire resource. Is that correct?

That is correct. It was the very first material that I went through, so that might have just hold a little place in my heart because of it.

Got it.

It is definitely my favorite for all the little different reasons that I have.

So no offense to anybody who wrote Betrayal and Beyond or Unraveled or Connected or any of that. Okay?

Of course not. I love those materials too, especially Unraveled. That one's amazing. Betrayal and Beyond. Amazing. They all have their own little niches that they bring to the table. But behind the Mask, to me, has always been a great starting point, and I just love it. And I love the artwork that's in there. It's wonderful.

Cool. All right. So you talk about it being the first resource that you really became familiar with with Pure Desire. So why don't you talk about that? How did you get introduced to behind the Mask?

Yeah, so behind the Mask is geared towards younger women. And at the time, I was getting closer to my 30s. Ashley Jamieson actually approached me. I was a life group leader at the church we were attending, and she approached me, along with a few other life group leaders, said, hey, we're going to all go through this material. It's going to help us be better leaders to these students, and it's going to be great time. So we're going to do that. And I was like, okay, that sounds good. I'm all for being a better leader. Well, I started the material, and within. I mean, it was the first page, maybe the second page, but immediately I was like, oh, this is for me, not for the leaders. For. It's more for me than it is for the students at that point, because I was completely confronted with the addiction that I was in. I was struggling with porn and masturbation as I was being a leader in the church. And I was hiding it. I had no idea how to even like that it was even a thing. Honestly. I was working through sobriety as a recovering alcoholic, and I didn't feel like I necessarily needed help from addiction. But that's just because I was in a lot of denial. I was just all wrapped up in what the outside would be and how I can do more. And if I could do more, then I would be better. So when I started going through the material and it asked me questions about my past, one of the very first questions was, have you ever been sexually abused or molested? And I'm like, well, does this count? And I immediately talked to Ashley about it, and she just had the best response. Very, well, warming. I would say it was a warming laugh because it was filled with love, but also just very lighthearted. Of course. Of course that is. And it just gave me this sense of, okay, I have a starting place. I have never told anybody these things before. Like I said, I was almost 30 and things that happened to me started when I was 6. So it was a lot of secrets for many years. And to finally confront it was difficult, but that's where it all started. And then it just took off from there.

That's pretty cool, Sarah, the way that you were approached by another leader who was saying, hey, let's go through this as leaders so that we can help students. And I wanted to just underscore that for listeners that that is a clever way that you may be able to start a group if you're having a hard time getting traction is rather than, you know, directly going to someone saying, hey, you need this group, because that does put up our natural defensiveness or sense of, I don't need that. But if we approach someone to say, hey, let's help our kids, or even approaching parents to say, let's be equipped as dads, or let's get equipped as moms, because we know our kids are going to face a ton of broken sexuality issues in their growing up years, and we want to just be equipped to help them. And so why don't we walk through this material as parents or as leaders? And then what you just echoed, I've heard so many times of people saying, I was going through this for someone else. And it didn't take me long to realize how badly I needed it for my own growth. And so it's pretty neat to hear that in your story.

Yeah, that was my experience. Let me. So sorry. Like, my experience was I had parents coming to me. I was a youth pastor and said, hey, our students are sexting each other. Like, what do we do? I'm like, I don't know what we do. And so then I have family working for Pure desire. So I went to Pure desire and then realized, oh, I need this stuff for me. And I think that what you're underscoring, too, Sarah, is that our healing is a huge gift that we give to other people, especially students, the ones that are in our lives, is that if we get healthy, then we have the tools and have experienced them. And I feel like I said this on a recent podcast. You can't lead someone somewhere you've never been before. And so if I've never used these tools and I'm trying to lead someone there, that's a challenge. But yet I realized, okay, I need this, and then realized how me having the tools in my life and having the health and sobriety in my life is actually what better equipped me to.

Lead students through it.

Exactly. Well, and then one of the biggest things I think is, can you imagine just looking back on our own lives, the brokenness, the hurt that either happened to us because we didn't have boundaries or that we stepped out into? How much of that would change if somebody would have come up to us when we were 14, 15, 16, said, Hey, I have this awesome material for you, and I'm willing to just sit with you, listen, work through it, share with you some of my own struggles, and we can go through it together? I mean, their life would radically change.

So, Sarah, you mentioned that you encountered the material when you were coming up on 30. On the other end of the spectrum, we know that the average age of exposure for kids, you know, being exposed to pornography, is getting younger and younger. And so in. In that spectrum, you know, we say that behind the mask is for young women. What. What age, what seasons of life would this material best be suited for? What would you recommend there?

Well, peer desire says that it's 14 to 21. And so that is really a great age group to start with, but I honestly feel like it could even be older, especially if somebody hasn't even attempted to address things that happened when they were a kid. And they just really need a starting point. They need a place to say, okay, I'm going to put myself in a younger state of mind, and I'm going to really work through this. And so then, not only does that help them have that starting point and work through those things from their past, but without it taking a whole year before they decide to go into maybe a different material. But it also gives them the resources to be a leader and to be able to lead students through the material.

Yeah. So I know you're also familiar with Unraveled, which would be maybe a version of the workbook that's more suited for older women, married women, how Would you make the distinction? If someone's hearing this and thinking, boy, should I which one should I do behind the Mask Unraveled? How would you kind of talk them through that distinction between the two? Like is there an age point, a season of life point? What would you recommend?

Yeah, well, you know, when there are a few questions that are in behind the Mask talking about sexting and just different little things that might happen nowadays as a student. But when I went through it, I didn't have a cell phone, you know, there was no technology available like that. And so as you read some of the questions, if somebody feels like that they wouldn't be able to relate to a lot of the material because of that, then I would say it would be better to go through Unraveled and just really dedicate that time. If they feel like they're, you know, maybe 30 or they, their goal is to lead a students group, then that would be great for them to go through behind the Mask.

I think some of the things too.

With that is keeping in mind the context of the group, like you know, as you described 14 to 21, there's major differences from a 14 year old and a 21 year old, right? Like there's some crazy differences just in the way that you do life and what, what role family and school and the rhythms of life playing. So I think that that would also be something to consider is if I'm going through a group with a bunch of other ladies, not me personally, stay with me. That are in the like 18, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 age, that maybe is something that then we go through. But if it's something that you're 21 and there are 14 or 15 year olds and you're not leading the group, then maybe consider Unraveled might be that next step or starting a behind the mask group with another group maybe in the same realm of your age. I would just say that, that because that could cause some issues.

I think in a group potentially definitely having a college age group and more of a high school group, I think those are awesome ideas.

So we know statistically that and this is, you know, kind of into your 14 to 21. Statistically the highest growing rate of porn use is college age women. And so we know that that is kind of on the tail end of teenage into young adult. And so sex and porn addiction is really starting younger and younger than that. The average age of exposure being 7 or 8 years old. So in your experience with that, how young exposure happens, what are some unique challenges that you see Leading students through a resource like behind the Mask, one.

Challenge would definitely be the just how vast it is, how just it's everywhere. You know, it's not like when I was a kid where you actually had to go searching for it. Now it comes to you, it finds you. And I think the fact that they could be learning something at home or in church or in group, but then go to school and it could be a completely different situation. I think that makes it really difficult. It's also hard when, if you have a church that is holding, maybe a high school group going through behind the Mask, some of those students. Great. Most likely some of those students actually go to class together. And that can really be hard for some of them because then they're thinking, oh, well, you know, is so and so going to talk about me at school. And it can be a really difficult challenge just to make sure that there's that trust there and that they understand that this is a safe zone where we're at right now.

Yeah. A couple of the challenges that I see as people think of leading these groups or even participating in them, I think what we consider normal or acceptable behavior as a society has changed drastically, even in the last 10 to 15 years. So I think when behind the Mask first came out, it was probably easier to assume that for a young gal coming into the group, she shared a common definition of what was wrong or right about human sexuality and how they use their body and what was appropriate to reveal to a boyfriend. You know, all those kind of things. Where I think right now, if you're a group leader in particular, you need to think through how can I help young women understand just the reasons why these things are dangerous. To help them understand why we're talking about avoiding pornography when maybe in their friend circle, it's become totally normal and acceptable. And so maybe that starting point as a leader recognizing I may need to kind of get into the why question some. Because before we deal with what they're doing and how to change behavior and change what's going on inside, they really need to have that motive piece figured out. So I think considering that, and the other thing that I feel has changed a lot is just even the definition of what we would consider pornography. I remember the director of Fight the New Drug was giving a talk at a university, and in a discussion about pornography, he brought up Playboy magazine. And the college students said, wait, Playboy's not pornography? And he realized in that moment that for the college student, still pictures of naked women was not even considered pornography in their circles. Or society anymore that it was only more hardcore videos that they thought of as porn. And so that's another thing that groups need to wrestle with is let's help define what is considered pornography and why. And why does a still image maybe have just as much impact on the brain and potential for addiction as watching hardcore videos online? And because both are so readily available, we need to make sure we're actually using the same terms as we describe things. So there may just need to be times we do a little more work to say to our group of young gals, hey, when I use the word pornography, what comes to mind, like, what do you think that means? And make sure that everybody, at least, is sharing a common definition as you go through the group.

Yeah, that's good.

One of the things that I think.

Is important to consider and a challenge in this is, and we see this literally across the board with pure desire groups, is that there is a level of investment that is challenging for people even who are in their 30s and 40s and 50s, to address this, to be honest, to do the work. And so I think that.

Not that we shouldn't hold our students.

Who are going through this to a high standard. I think that we want to try to set that tone in that culture, but also understand that, like, they have very little of life figured out. And it's going to be hard to, you know, because I know part of the pure desire model is just understanding family of origin and understanding the culture you were raised in and what's motivating your unwanted behavior. Man, at 14, I had no idea what that stuff was like. I had no clue that that's what would be motivating my behavior. And so I think as a. As an individual who either is helping kind of facilitate these or lead these, or someone who's bringing it to the church, hey, we need this. Maybe you're a youth leader and you don't know what to do. I think understanding that there needs to be this level of grace that covers everything in a sense where these kids are very much in process and they're in a season of life where. And it's really hard to put any real, like, handles on it and make it tangible in so many ways. And so I think that we should push them and really focus on the culture and the tone that we're setting just as much as them doing the work and the conversations we're having, because it's just. That's a major challenge. You can't, like. And there. And here's another thing. There may be a 14 year old who's like, got it? They're like, yep, I'm on board. I got all this stuff, I'm rocking with it. And then There are other 14 year olds, like, what's pornography? Right. Or like what's masturbation? Or why are we even doing this? Like, there's just, there's a spectrum of cultures, households, families, individuals. And so that's another major challenge for sure.

Yeah. And just to piggyback off of Nick, just the why, figuring out the why, not only for the students, but definitely as a leader, being able to know what is your why, why are you leading, but also what are the reasons why we. Why we struggle with this, you know, and diving into the definitions of things, you know, not just with porn, but also what is sex? Students nowadays define that completely different. What used to be defined as sex before now is just, oh, we're just messing around or we're just having fun. And really it's. Their brain is thinking it's something completely different.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, great point there. So as we think about these groups, Sarah, who do you feel can lead them? What kind of maybe background or equipping do they need as they lead? And do the students ever get involved in helping lead groups? What does that look like?

I'll start with the students. As far as students leading groups, they do need to be at least 18 to be able to lead any sort of group. And I feel like it varies depending on the person. Sometimes we are finding sobriety and they are really working with the tools and they're working with a leader in the church and, and they can lead and they've been able to. But sometimes you have somebody that's 18 and they're still in it and they're still struggling and having a hard time. And even though their heart is in the right place and they're wanting to help the other students, I would not advise that they step into a leadership role at that time with anybody that's younger. I've actually had students that were 17, they were almost 18 or 16, and they're very mature for their age and they're wanting to lead some of these younger groups. And the way that I've kind of approached that is said, okay, you won't be able to really lead a group, but why don't you come alongside of me and I'll lead a group and you can kind of co. Facilitate and be there to help move the discussion along and bring new ideas to the table, but also show the vulnerability that you have with These students because that you could be that person that they need to look up to.

Yep.

And I think, I think with that too is a huge thing that I realized. And there's like these layers to that. Like, I as a student won't necessarily go to my parent about something, but I'll go to my youth leader about it or my pastor. And I think that that's just like a separation that I think a lot of kids make. But then also I'm much more likely to go to an older student than I am a leader. I feel like they'd maybe better understand me a little bit more or like, and I learned this in high school, that, like, if you're a high schooler and you're hanging out with middle schoolers, they adore you whether you want them to or not. They are just fascinated with life as a high schooler. And only the fact that you're only a few years older makes you like a thousand times cooler than they are, which sometimes is not true. Like, you're just not cool.

Right.

But I think that equipping someone like that can also help create those bonds between upperclassmen and people who are just starting high school or people who are in middle school. And it sets that culture that I think, if I'm just thinking blue sky, I think that that changes a church down the road because you're creating that culture where we can trust people that are a few years in front of us, but then also those people looking back at younger people who are coming up, just pouring into them. I think it's huge.

Exactly. It definitely changes the dynamic of how everybody's interacting with each other. And if it's a safe place, not.

And as we think about, you know, the who can lead. I want to go back to what you said, Sarah, about even leaders really need to know their why. And I think if a leader like the why they want to do this is excited, we need to get all these kids in line and make sure, you know, they're not doing bad things. And I hear about all these horrible stuff happening. I want to make sure our kids aren't doing that. And that tends to be more of a, you know, restrictive, fear based, kind of controlling approach, which isn't going to work well in the group. I think that's quickly going to come across to students that this leader just wants to tell us what to do. Because really the group is based around that openness of sharing, that place you feel respected and heard and safe and can trust one another. And so for a leader and this really would apply to all groups. We want to make sure that our motive is to come alongside people, to love and encourage and be with them in their struggle as they figure out what does health and freedom look like. And yes, we share from our story. Yes, there's powerful principles in the book that will direct people to behavior change. But I think as a leader, making sure that our motive is that that sense of grace and coming alongside and not, well, I'm going to control or fix people if I could just tell them what to do. So really kind of look at your motive. And if your motive is love, man, jump in and go for it, because God will use you.

Exactly. Yeah. Well, we always looked at the next generation and we think, I want you to do better. And what better way to pass things on than to go through material, find healing yourself, and then lead others through it to say, hey, there is just a better way. There is not. It is not that you are doing things horribly, but we can always do things better. Maybe they are doing it horribly. You never know. But they can always do things better. And here's a resource, here's a way to do things better. And it's a way to live happier, a way to live healthier. Something that you can just really look to and that can guide you as you are moving forward. I love that there's science, but there's so much biblical fact that says God loves you. And students need to hear that so much.

Absolutely. I would. I would emphasize that strongly that. I mean, you think about identity as an adult, how challenging it is to remain in who God says you are. It seems so fluid when you're at that age being a student, because you're trying to figure out who you are and who the world tells you you are. Your friends tell you you are, your parents tell you that you are. And I think it's just very fluid. And I think that anything that we can do to literally, like, nail it.

Down, like nail down their identity right.

To their chest and say, this is who you are, is going to be really, really good. I'm going to preach a sermon here in a minute, so I'm going to stop. But let's talk about this a little bit, Sarah, like, looking at and kind of walk through, like a week, if you will, in the life of the group. What does it look like as a leader going through the week leading up to the meeting? What does the meeting look like? And then what does it look like from between that meeting and the next? Kind of talk us through what the group looks like leading it.

Yeah. So as you're coming up to the group meeting, just staying connected with the students and knowing how they connect best is wonderful. That's key right there. So always in the very first meeting asking them, how do you connect best? Do you like phone calls or do you hate it? Do you like to text? Do you use Instagram? Do you use WeChat? Whatever happens to be that they like to use, then make sure to have that on your phone and be connecting with them through that and then leading through like to the group. As you get to the group, I always like to check in and just say, hey, how's everybody doing with your homework? And I'll pinpoint something specific. If we're working on faster skills, which doesn't happen until chapter five, but as they get closer and they are doing them, then I will pull that out. How's your commitment to change or what did you think of the faster scale? Is anybody at ticked off right now or is it just me? No, just checking in and seeing how they are doing and keeping it very light and not so much as a teacher, I guess. Get your homework done and don't forget to do this. It is just connecting with them and saying, hey, I had a hard time with this question or, or this question was really fun. I really enjoyed drawing this specific picture. What did you guys think? And just having that conversation throughout the week and especially leaning more towards homework focused questions as it gets closer to the group meeting. And I say that only because they already have so much homework as it is. So to keep them reminded that they do have pure desire homework that they should be focusing on and doing just kind of helps. By the time we get to the group meeting, they have their homework done and they are ready and ready to go. So throughout the group meeting, I always like to say, hey, you know, how's it going? How'd everybody's week go? If I feel like we have enough time because some of the chapters are very short while others are, you know, maybe 15 pages or 10 pages. So they can take a little while to get through. But if the chapter is shorter, I might start the week off with like a happy crappy or the meeting off with the happy crappy. And hey, let's go around, let's do happy crappy sappy. And.

I love that I'm gonna start my group meetings that way now. Happy, crappy, sappy.

Especially the sappy. Some girls are like, I watched this movie and it's just hilarious. But it really helps. Just lighten the mood, especially going into something that they know is going to be hard. They're going to have to share something that's hard. So why not make it a little fun at the same time? And I noticed that when they do get to share something that's really hard, when it's in an environment that is so positive, it doesn't feel as draining. You know, they might cry, we might all cry. But then at the same time, I've had classes where we are also laughing. And it is at a time where you would think you should not be laughing. You are like, hey, that is a little twisted. But we are all laughing because it is just this freedom of like, same. I have gone through that same. And we get to share together and just feel lighter and feel that love and grace that God has for us in that space and then leaving from there. I always like to recommend, like, if somebody has a question or if somebody's having an issue throughout the week. I like to pinpoint what day is that? So what day is your exam? You know, Thursday. Okay, what time is it? And maybe make sure that either I'm sending a message or I connect with another group member and say, hey, please send a message to so and so before their. Before their exam. And then maybe I'll connect with them after their exam or something. And so really just trying to like, almost assign the students times and days to connect and in hopes that it puts a foundation down and then they will go from there and they'll start connecting from there if they haven't already.

I love that.

I think what you're doing is you're also teaching them what it looks like to have true and intimate community outside of a pure desire group. Like you're teaching them what it looks like to do life better as a follower of Jesus inside a community of other people. So I love that.

Exactly. Thanks.

And you alluded to this, Sarah, but I think something that is key to keep in mind as leaders, it's really your vulnerability that leads the way, not your expertise or professionalism. So if you're an adult leading a group for teens for minors, you don't want to be sharing about your current struggles in terms of maybe behaviors. It's okay to share emotional things or just how you were processing, but you do want to be vulnerable about your story and really try to connect with them on that level. And that's, I think, a danger. If we're the adult going into a room with teens is we maybe immediately feel like the parent or the adult in the room and I've got to kind of have it all together. And really, you know, your influence will come. As you say, boy, yeah. When I was 16, 15, this was my story. And I remember feeling this way. And that will be the connection point that I think facilitates so much the rest of that conversation. Because if, if the group doesn't feel you're being vulnerable and real about your story and your past, I think their desire to connect with you during the week on those, whether it's a phone call or a text or a chat or whatever, it's going to be minimized. They won't know as much maybe why to connect. But if you're being vulnerable and real, it's going to invite that out of them as well. So just make sure it's vulnerability that leads the way and not your sense of being the professional or the expert in the room.

Yeah.

And I would say with that, that.

What I have learned from experience is that students are not afraid to be honest, which is a beautif thing because if they think that you're being disingenuous, they will tell you you're being disingenuous. And so my encouragement to any leader is pay attention when they start to check out, pay attention when they tell you those things because they're onto something whether you know it or not.

Yeah. And you know, it's always like you mentioned, when they start to check out during some groups, you'll see some students doodling or and you can, you can tell maybe they're listening. I mean, I'm actually that kind of person where if I'm doodling in a, that means I'm actually soaking in more information because I'm probably doodling around my notes or writing notes. And so I do understand that mindset. But sometimes it just means they're bored and they're not listening and they're not understanding the value of hearing somebody else's story or somebody else's answer. And in that situation, as a leader, I feel like it's good again to keep very light hearted. But you can always check somebody lightheartedly. You can say, hey, what are you drawing? You want to show everyone and just make it fun, but don't let things go by the wayside. I think definitely call things out, you know, and really hold that higher standard. Because even though they are students and even though they have a lot on their plate, I feel like the one thing that is common is a lot of people won't expect as much out of them because they're students. When really they have so much value to bring to the table and so much information, so much emotion, vulnerability, things that us as leaders can learn from them. And going into a group knowing that, okay, I'm here to show you my vulnerability and lead you. But I'm also planning on learning something too. So what are you going to teach me? Because I know you got something awesome. And I think just having that high standard for students really helps them push themselves where they need to be pushed.

So good.

Yeah, great ideas. So if you're leading one of these groups and there's minors, do they need their parents permission to participate? And what have you done in situations where a minor doesn't want her parents to know that she's interested in a group like this?

That's a really tough question. At least the second half is tough. They do need. If they're a minor, they do need to have a parent signature. And one of the things that I do is I always just really encourage them. They can read through the memo of understanding. And if the parents have any questions on what is this? And the student doesn't want to share that with their parents, then I always tell them, here's my number. Have your mom call me or have your dad call me, and I won't share any of your stuff with them because it is a confidentiality group. And as the MOU that we have the memo of understanding for those who have been in our group know what that means, but a lot, and pretty much everything is kept confidential unless we have to bring it forward and the students know that. And so if they're really not wanting to share that with their parents and say, hey, I'm in this group, then I let them know. Just tell them the bare truth. You know, say we're having a group at church. This is what the leader is sharing, and this is the material that we're going through. They don't have to say whether it was their choice or not to go through it. They could blame it all on me as a leader if they want. They could say, I'm having them do it. Then the teacher can always call me or the parent can always call me and we can have a little discussion and I can explain. This is the material, and it's amazing.

Yeah, I think some of the stuff that I've experienced, just leading groups in general, like seven pillar groups, like this has been something that's been encouraged to me from Rich and from Ashley, and some of our groups teams, is understanding that if someone is uncomfortable sharing something that either is like borderline legally legal or something that they know is really, really serious, that if they don't feel comfortable sharing it with our group, at least share it with somebody. You know, find like a counselor or find somebody to talk to about it and maybe that's even just a friend. But I think that because as when I was a youth pastor, I am a mandatory reporter, and so if I hear something, I have to say something. And so I think that there's gonna be that. That's almost feeling like you're putting a hurdle in front of your students. Like, hey, if you've done something illegal or hey, if there's something that's super sketchy and you're not super comfortable sharing, don't share it here. Because, you know, I have to tell someone. Like, that seems kind of wishy washy and maybe goes against the grain a little bit. But from what I've gathered, it's just something like, make sure someone knows.

Because.

You don't want that to come back later and ruin your life. Like, I think that being honest about that really does take a lot of courage and creates, I think, the right kind of trajectory and movement in health when we are honest about it. But I just know that that's. That can be really sketchy and kind of an uncomfortable thing for a leader and for students in a group.

Oh, yeah, and they know that too. I've had some students as a life group leader that would come up to me and share something that was very borderline and they knew that or it was way past the line. But they used very specific words. They were very careful with their wording. And because of that, it was something that when I shared it with my youth pastor, she said, okay, well, wait, what did she exactly say? And we could kind of pick at it and decide, okay, is it better for us to report this or is it safer for her if we are just supporting her and listening to her? So just with those experiences, the students know. They. They know. And it is an honor when you get to still hear their story.

Yep, absolutely. Okay.

So obviously, I mean, for me, again, my experience of I was starting trying to start something for students, and I feel like that, as we've already talked and Nick mentioned it, that's a great way to get groups going in your church and get your own healing kind of kickstarted. But what has been your experience and how would you encourage people when wanting to start groups like behind the Mask?

Well, very simply, if they wanted to speak with the youth pastor and see who's on staff and Trying to get things going that way. That is a great place to start. Another place would be actually talking to the parents. We've had mom groups at our church where I've talked to the moms, and I said, hey, do you want to go through this material and be a better mom? Just have resources so you can talk to your teens and. And be able to know what struggles they're facing right now and be able to know how you can connect. Because by going through this, it's going to bring you back to your childhood and you're going to be able to connect better. And so that's one way to really just kind of show people, you know, there are many different ways to use the resource. And what I found is the moms that have gone through it to be a better mom have ended up going through unraveled stories, safe and 101. Just recently, they continued their own personal journey because they realized the healthier they got then, the better relationship they had with their kids and with their spouse. And then they were able to really connect and help their kids have a healthier life as well. So they continued on. And then with the life group leaders and youth pastors, I mean, it is the same as me. I just feel like I am carrying on Ashley's work and just trying to get all the other leaders in it for the students. And I put quotes around that because.

That'S awesome.

Well, I think we always want to remember the power of a testimony that if possible, if you are the youth leader and this isn't your story to share, maybe you have another volunteer or someone in the church that you know has talked to you about pure desire and their story. Because if. If there's an adult that can, with real grace and vulnerability, stand up and talk about brokenness from their teenage years, poor decisions they made, and how they took that into adulthood and the continuing problems, and then how they found a path to healing and freedom and in an appropriate way. Just to say, you know, I wish I could have discovered some of this when I was a teenager. But that's exactly what this group will do for you. And if you're interested, as always, as we recommend with pretty much every group, also be careful to give teens, young adults, a very confidential way to say they're interested. Because if you do, like a sign up in the back or raise your hand, I mean, there's some people that they've never told a soul about the abuse they faced or what happened between them and a boyfriend because they're so embarrassed or Petrified that if their parents find out, all this is going to be taken away. And so if you ask for any kind of a public response, maybe the people that meet at the most won't respond. So I really encourage that use of testimony, something personal that can be shared, and then being very careful that there's a confidential, safe way to say, here's the leader, or, I'm the pastor, a youth pastor. Here's my cell phone number or my email address. And as always, I wish we didn't have to say this, but a reminder. Teenage boys should not be contacting adult women and teenage girls should not be contacting adult men about this topic, ever. I would suggest even to sign up for the group.

Right.

So if you're asking teenage girls to sign up, there needs to be email, adult contact. And same for the boys, just right away, make that clear because that's. That's a line that can get blurry, like, oh, I'm just helping get the group started. And. And then this girl texted me her story and I just told her I was. You know, those situations, unfortunately, we hear all the time in our society where a door got opened into an inappropriate relationship in a very innocent way. And so we just want to make sure the way you start the group is often the way you run the group. And so from the beginning, start the group with female girls contacting a female leader. And that will really just safeguard the process as well.

Oh, yeah. And actually, just to give a couple ideas, some of the things that I have done, I have been able to speak at our youth group. And then at the end, while we are all still together, I have them all pause for five minutes, and we go through the love addiction evaluation. And that is something that I just made a copy of. And so everybody got to take that. And then I told them if they want to stay anonymous, that's fine. It's not something that they have to share with anybody. But at least they know what their score is. At least that they can see what's going on. And if they're struggling with something, they can see it on a piece of paper. But if for some reason they feel like they would like to either talk with a woman leader, of course with a female leader, then they can do that. Or if they would be interested in a group, then they can do that. And if they are interested to put their name and number on the sheet somewhere. And then I had every single person fold it and every single person pass it down and put it in a bucket. So that way both Anonymous ones are there and named ones are there. Another way I did it was the same thing, but with the who I am in Christ list. And that way they could all have that to look through. And we actually did a guided kind of meditation where we just breathed and went through those similar to what Heather has done. And at the end of that had everybody pass down the sheets, and if they had a name on it, then we knew to connect with them.

And we could probably put those resources in the show notes. Right, Trevor? Yep, you got it. Volunteering Trevor for that. So we already talked about the parent relationship some and how that can be a challenge for teenagers. And very often in the church that we can assume that, well, these conversations are happening at home and in the home parents assume all these conversations are happening at church. And maybe no one's really doing the right kind of conversations and training. So how do we encourage and support the relationship between a teenager and their parents and make sure that they're getting on the same page as they walk through this process?

It's such a good question. I think it's definitely something that's important to be talked about during church. So if it is the pastor that happens to be speaking about these groups or if there are booths that they can set up to just have conversations with people as a whole, and then the mom group specifically, just bringing in somebody to be able to talk to the mom specifically and say, encouraging them, hey, talk to your kids, talk to your teens about these things. But along with the student groups and as a leader leading a student group, as you're going through it, whenever you see questions that are being brought up commonly right now, it seems like there are a lot of questions around same sex attraction, and they're really confused. They have questions from home that they feel like they can't really talk to their parents. And then they go to school and they get a very worldly view for an answer. And so whenever they've come to class and they're asking questions like that, a lot of what they're just wanting to hear is, God still loves you and I love you. And let's just focus on the why and let's just focus on where things have started. Let's go there. But a big thing that I like to do is really encourage them to talk to their par and just say, hey, have you just been able to sit down and ask them, maybe ask them how they've struggled? And as I'm talking to the parents throughout the time that the students are in the group, really encouraging Them to either go through the material themselves so that way they just know what their students are going through or at least address their own past. And figuring out what are you willing to share with your student and what are you not willing to share with your student and why are you not willing to share that? And what could really help by you actually being that vulnerable about your past? And so really just non stop encouragement. You can't force anybody to connect, but just that nonstop encouragement and knowing that you're still loved.

Yeah, I think from my experience, I would just say, man, this is like, what's so important about you equipping yourself as a leader, as someone who has a voice of influence in the life of a young person, you know, and that honestly, that could mean you're in your 50s and you're talking to someone who's in their 40s. But in this context, if you have a voice in the life of someone who's middle school, high school, early college, equipping yourself is so important because for me, I had a parent come to me and say, hey, this is the problem. Can you help? And I said no, because I don't know any better, I don't know. But I'm so thankful that I had a connection to pure desire and could reach out and get that education. So I think that I would encourage a leader to equip themselves and if you don't have that information, in humility, step out and do your work, do your research, find out what you can. But then one of the things I, and this is probably one of the biggest failures in my ministry as a youth pastor is that I viewed the kids as my ministry and they are. But the parents are just as much a part of my ministry, shepherding them and walking through like really being a bridge between the students and the Lord. Yes. But even, even so between their parents and them. And so I think that that's something that as you equip yourself, you also are equipping. And like you said, train those parents, give them the opportunity to have conversations, to ask questions and try to create that bridge. Because we talk about this, that if, you know, if we've got one sided healing in a marriage, I think that the same principle could be applied that if a student is trying to get healthy, but they go home and the culture is quiet and there's no one to talk to, there's so much shame, it's hard to grow and kind of bust out of that culture when that's just your everyday. So I think equipping yourself and looking to train shepherd, guide and be a resource for parents and equip them to be the ones who are connecting with their kids, because they want that. Whether or not you realize it, parents want to be close with their kids. They want to have that connection. They want to know they're helping. And so I think you can do a lot to help the parents do that.

Oh, yeah. What's really neat, the impact that the students can have on their parents. I had one student that her family never went to church. They didn't believe in God, and they had a lot of issues that were happening. And so she would go to school, felt like she didn't have any support. She would go home and felt like she didn't have support. She would go to church and felt like she was an outsider. But when she got to go through group, she connected with these other students that felt the same way. And over time, throughout the group, but then also throughout the time that she was able to connect more and more with her church, more and more with the youth group there, she ended up being able to get her parents to come to church, and her dad and her both got baptized on the same day. It was just such a cool thing. And that would not have ever happened if she wasn't willing to step out.

I think, to build on that. Sarah, as often as possible, we want to recognize the groups as an environment where we can equip. Equip teens to be more open with their parents, because that's part of the material, is that secrecy and shame are what drive addiction or what drive negative behavior, what drive the kind of thinking that keeps us trapped. And so openness and vulnerability with those closest to us is part of healing. And obviously, everyone's home life is different, and maybe not everyone is in an environment where it's safe to share and be vulnerable. But I think the majority of students, if you said, you know, what would it look like to start being more open with your parents just about what you're struggling with. And that doesn't mean you've got to tell them everything. But if you open that door, you know, what might that look like? And as they feel that equipped and feel the confidence to do that, I think it facilitates relationship with the parents who hopefully are starting to do the same as well.

Yeah, it definitely. I mean, behind the mask is a huge way to equip the students. And then same with unraveled as far as equipping, equipping the adults, because I know I work on my relationship with my parents still to this day. And it's due to peer desire material that is given me the know how, you know, and so these students that maybe they grew up in a. In an environment that doesn't teach them how to be vulnerable, then how can they possibly be vulnerable with their parents? And be honest, if that wasn't modeled and they didn't learn how to do that, just like for students that weren't taught how to do finances, you know, similar concept, how could they possibly be expected? So being able to go into a group and see that vulnerability modeled in the group helps them to know how they can actually word things. So that way they can talk to their parents.

Absolutely. All right.

Sarah and I have had this experience where. And I can imagine it's just even amplified even more when you have groups like this with your students, that parents want to know what's going on in their kid's life. And, you know, I would spend time with students, and parents would come and be like, well, what are they sharing with you? Like, what's going on in their life? And I think at times it's really challenging because it's like, well, I'm a safe person, and if I break this confidentiality, am I safe? And so I think there's this tension. And so especially when it comes to the topic and theme of these groups and the area of sexual brokenness in general, what does confidentiality look like if a parent comes to you and says, hey, you know, Sarah, my daughter, who's in your group, I feel like I'm seeing some things. Has she shared about this or what has she shared in group? How do you handle that as a leader?

Yeah, I feel like it's very similar to when spouses have asked the same question. It's always healthier if the student can share that with their parents than if it's coming from me. And for confidentiality, that's exactly what it is. I cannot. So I referenced the memo of understanding if that were to happen. Just saying. Unfortunately, these are some things we're talking about. But as you can tell, I can't give you information unless they fall into this criteria. So just in assuring them that if you're hearing nothing, that's a good thing. That is a very good thing. If you're hearing nothing, and if that parent is hearing something or knows about something that has happened that they want me to know about, I always just meet that with a thank you. Thank you for that information. I will talk to your daughter and we'll continue on.

Yeah, Yeah, I think it can Be helpful that use those moments to try to train parents and to say to them in a kind way, you know, what you're asking is actually create triangulation with me and your teenager, which is unhealthy for all of us. So if these are questions you have, you need to ask your teenager. And if they're not answering them, it's not necessarily my job to give you information they're not willing to give you. And so if you can show a parent this is just healthy personal relationships that I shouldn't be stepping in and sharing what's not mine to share because it'll damage all of our relationships, that might help the parent kind of take a deep breath. And then also I think, sharing with the parents some of the material and helping them understand the kind of questions they could ask their kids. Because if all they know is, well, how's it going? Or are there bad things you've done, you need to tell me. I mean, those aren't going to be responded to well. But if a parent can learn to ask questions about when your friends didn't invite you along, how did that make you feel? Or what's something that's happened in the last week that's really made you excited? Is there anything lately that has really disappointed you? And asking questions to get their teen talking on an emotional level and much of that might come out of the material. So if they know what's in the material, then they might have some tools to ask good questions and not just get stuck into the well, you know, tell me everything. What do I need to know? Because I think kids just, they clam up and don't know how to answer those questions very well.

Oh yeah. And actually just on that and kind of taking a piece from earlier, Happy crappy sappy. I do that with my daughters, my 4 year old and my 7 year old and my husband and I actually will do that at dinner every once in a while where we are just like, all right, let's do happy crappy sappy. What's the best part of your day today? And the worst? And we found out that our 7 year old has a boyfriend and he doesn't even know about it.

That's amazing.

You know, and then I do that also. If they go to a birthday party, I'll bring them to the party. Even though they're young enough to where I'm not dropping them off, I'm still there. I see what happens. But you still don't know what's going on internally. So when we're Leaving any kind of event, I'll be like, hey, let's do happy crappy. Do you want me to start? And sometimes they'll volunteer. They'll say, I want to start. I want to start. Sometimes they'll say, no, mom, you start. And I'm like, okay, well, man, I thought this person was weird, you know, or whatever it was that stuck out and just kind of make it fun. But it shows that I'm also being vulnerable. I'm not prying into their life. I'm willing to share what's going on with my day and connect with them as well as listen to them. And not just the good parts, but also the bad parts, and knowing that we can bond over. Over those bad parts. Maybe we all had a crappy or a bad experience at this one spot, and we can all bond over that and talk about it and say, yeah, it wasn't fun.

Yeah, that's super good. I think what is just interesting, like, you know, talking about this resource, this episode was really just to educate people on what is offered for, you know, young women in this arena. But what I'm seeing is that this resource is more than that. It's also a way to foster a different kind of culture and a different kind of relationship for the students with themselves, with other people, and then also with the parents or the authority figures they have in their life. Because as we've even talked about, I think of, you know, there are a lot of students that don't have both parents or either parent, and literally all they have is their pastor or this youth leader or their friends. And so this is definitely something that you can see that in my mind, what I envision is this is like a seed that gets planted, and then the roots just go for days and days and days and spread out and create this new culture. And so this is something that we encourage every church, every youth leader, every pastor to consider. How do we set this up in our church? And maybe it's not this group specifically, but it is something to try to open up the conversation and try to get students to look at their sexual health and how it impacts their life and the lives of people around them. So, Sarah, first off, thank you so much for being with us on your first time. You did super great. And then also, just thank you so much for pouring in and investing in time and energy and love to young women and in leading these groups.

Well, thank you for having me, and thank you for just creating this material and the opportunity. I think it's amazing.

You're welcome I'm so glad that I wrote it. Just kidding. So wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. You or someone you know is looking for help. Go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you are already a subscriber, please write a review. It helps others find our podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.