185 - What If My Betrayed Spouse Doesn't Want Healing?

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 185 of the Pure Desire podcast here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Oompa loom ba doo, buddy.

Do I. Can we just be honest? Some of the weirdest characters ever made in any movie ever.

Yes. Whether you watch, you know, the Johnny Depp, Charlie and Chocolate Factory, or go back to the, like, 70s one. The 70s one is weird. Oh, yeah. You think of it as all in.

LSD and they were making kids movie.

But if you go back and watch it, there are some parts of that are like, this is really a strange movie. But yeah, some classic lines and scenes from those movies.

Okay, so we're switching up a little bit. Let's talk about the episode a little bit here. Today we had Heather Kolb, our content manager, creator, neuroscience expert, speaker, author, whatever. She's great. We had her on to talk about a situation that we often hear about where the struggling spouse or addicted spouse is in recovery or healing, and their betrayed spouse doesn't want their own healing.

Yeah, and I was thinking of the Oompa Loompas because on Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, there's the one girl, and is it Victoria or Regina or. I mean, she's just the spoiled brat. And so they sing about, you know, what do you do when your kid is a brat? And the question of, like, how do we change this attitude in our kids? And so that's not today's episode, but there is the question of, like, I don't know how to control the attitude or emotions of people outside of me. And that's a human predicament. But when it's within a marriage where we feel like one person is maybe getting healthier, moving in the right direction, and the other person is stuck.

Yeah, they're.

There's kind of this quandary of what do we do about that? And in today's episode, we just try to talk and really expecting that if we're talking about a spouse that's not pursuing their healing, it's probably the spouse who is in group or pursuing their healing that's listening today. And so just trying to provide a lot of perspective of how to approach the situation, how not to make things worse, and how to create the best possible scenario where your spouse might choose to move into their healing. And if you're a spouse that has just Begun the process of moving into your healing, maybe having been on the other side of the situation, that you find this tremendously encouraging, that you find there's so much for you, even though this isn't your problem, that your healing and your journey can do wonders for your marriage. And so I hope if someone does happen to heal that says, well, hey, I've been the spouse that's not healing, that they'll find a lot of encouragement too.

Totally. So it is a great episode. Couple of quick things before we get to it. First off, subscribe to the podcast. Just. Just do it. We're on all the major platforms and if you can give us a review, it helps other people find the podcast. Also, follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, instagramuredesirepdmi, and we now have full episodes of these up on YouTube. Last thing, we are really, really excited about March 5th and 6th. Why do you ask? We'll tell you. We are now doing March 5th and 6th, the virtual Pure Desire groups conference. Brand new content. Super exciting stuff. Nick, why don't you tell people about it?

Yes. You know, Trevor, we have over 800 churches that use our small groups material. And we now have over 500 people that are in our online groups. And we just recognized that's a lot of people in groups. And we wanted to provide a seminar kind of format that would encourage them. It would be a shot in the arm to their group experience. And the original idea that these would be regional events, we were setting them up in San Diego and Seattle and.

New York and Covid.

Yeah. And so we just hit pause. I mean, we got to do it once in Dallas. We had to trial run the content. And I'll be honest, I loved it. I thought it was a great event and I can't wait for people to experience this. So if you're in a group, we designed it with you in mind. It's kind of our 201 training. Building on sexual integrity, 101, building on what people have heard and seen in the Conquer series. If they've watched either of those, it's kind of taking your group experience to the next level, really understanding the group process, understanding your own heart, mind and brain. And so whether you are in a group or leading the group, this is for you. And I hope you'll strongly, strongly consider coming and spending either the weekend with us and watching it live online, or if you need to space it out over a couple of weeks and watch a session a day. We've designed it that way as well. But either way, it's material that I think will just be a huge encouragement to you as you walk through the group's process. So for all of our group members and group leaders, we want to see you in March and I hope you'll join us.

So visit puredesire.orggroupsconference for more information and you can register for this virtual event there as well. Tickets are currently $59 and $19 for any additional viewer on the same screen or device. We are excited to see you on March 5th. And here now is our conversation with Heather Kolb on the situation when a betrayed spouse doesn't want to pursue their healing. Heather, thanks for joining us again.

Happy to be here.

You say that every time. I'm pretty sure that's what it is. Are you or is it just. That's just your placeholder.

No, I am happy to be here.

Okay, good.

We're happy you're here, too.

Yeah.

Speak for yourself.

And we're off to a running start.

So you know firsthand, Heather, as do a lot of our listeners, what it's like to experience betrayal from a sexual addiction. That experience is life shattering. It's traumatic. Because of this, we encourage any spouse who experiences this type of betrayal trauma to go through their own healing and group experience. But we know that that isn't always the case. There are a lot of that. We do hear from a lot of people who are in their own recovery groups who have these questions, what if my spouse doesn't want to get healthy? What if my spouse doesn't want to be in a betrayal and beyond group or wants to seek Pure Desire counseling or be in their own support group? And so that's what we're going to talk about today at Pure Desire. We've talked about this a lot, that recovery and healing is what we call family systems issue. That means that both spouses need their healing and their recovery for a marriage to actually flourish and be really how God intended it to be. Why is this? Why is recovery and healing a family systems issue? And both spouses really need to get healthy.

So this model, this family systems model, basically suggests that whatever is happening to one person in the family is happening to the entire family. And so that's the foundation of why we take this approach, is because it wouldn't help the family if only the person struggling got healthy in the same way it wouldn't help the family if only the betrayed spouse got healthy, because it still would disrupt their family dynamic. And they also, within this model, take into consideration that everything that we are, because of our family of origin, that that also is gonna creep up into our adult life and it's gonna affect our relationships in our current family. And so really, this model is suggesting that as we get healthy, we're going to include everyone in the family so that then we're shifting the dynamic and making the entire family unit function in a healthy way. So that's kind of at the core of this model that we use.

Yeah. And I've heard you talk, Heather, in a lot of your sessions about like the nature versus nurture model of am I am. Am I who I am just because of my DNA and the way I was born, or is it my environment? And in so many of those talks and studies, what it seems to reveal is the answer is yes, I am both a product of my nature and what's naturally there and the nurture of what happened around me. And I think in recovery and in family systems, that's what we're looking at, is the life I live is both impacted by what's happening in me and at a personal level, and choices I make and what's happening in my environment. And so if we look at change and recovery as something that's going to impact both those systems, we need to be willing to look at both sides. That I can't ever really just change me without also impacting the environment around me and vice versa, that there's. There's some connection there that I don't think we can ever get away from. And so that's why healing and recovery ideally is impacting on multiple levels. So that that change is happening together, both in the system around us and in our personal life.

I don't know why, but what's coming to mind right now is like if both spouses were in a car accident together and only one of them got healing or did physical therapy, and the other one is just, well, sorry, you're just there and you're not going to heal or get healthy. The dynamic in the house is going to be really weird and difficult. And what's interesting is, as I'm thinking about this illustration or analogy, and if it's not good, cut me off or don't just be gracious to me. But I think that the problems or the issues that that caused, that that accident caused will continue to perpetuate and be there and be present in the home because one person has not gotten healthy. And I think the same is true here, that if one spouse is getting healthy and the other one's not, it's still going to be really fresh and there's still going to be the effects of that because there hasn't been healing for one of the spouses. I don't know how was that? Was that okay?

No, I think it's good. And what I like about that illustration is that if there are multiple people in that car together that got into an accident, the passengers were not responsible. They got impacted because of someone else's poor choices, whether it was the driver or if another person hit them. But just because you weren't responsible or to blame for the pain or the incident doesn't mean you're not impacted by it. And we'll have to do some work in terms of recovery and healing and. And I think that's what we want to help people just look at, say, whether or not I'm responsible or at fault or have any blame, so to speak, in the issue I need to look at, have I been impacted? Have I been wounded or traumatized or betrayed? Or am I experiencing something that if I don't deal with it just to your illustration, it's going to leave me in a bad place?

Yep.

Yeah.

Yep.

So we hear about this situation often, you know, and can I just say, these are hard situations. I mean, honestly, when you have very core relationship, like a marriage where the couple feels off pace from one another, that's hard on any topic, let alone the area of our sexuality or betrayal and addiction. And so what are the reasons that you've heard, Heather, for a betrayed spouse not seeing the need for their own healing?

I think one of the biggest reasons that you hear, or the most common reason is that it's not my thing, that I didn't do it. I'm not the one who's broken. I. I'm not the one who needs to get fixed. And so you go get fixed and then things will be back to normal. Which I also want to point out, just so that the betrayed spouse doesn't get feel, you know, upset about this conversation, is that we recognize that the betrayed spouse is in crisis, that their world has been completely shattered. It will never be the same. They will struggle with not trusting their past relationship or what happened in their relationship, because that's gone now, but then feel trapped by the uncertainty of what their future holds. And I think that just to be sensitive to that, that their life will never be the same. Not that it can't get better at some point, but it makes a lot of sense when you put that lens over it of why so many betrayed spouses react that way or feel like, okay, well, I'm not the one who did this. You actually did this to me. And so you need the help.

We were just talking about a study very recently that like one of the top two most traumatic events in someone's life is the betrayal of someone close to you or someone in your family or a marriage. And so we're not saying that this is not something that is completely life shattering because it is life shattering, but kind of going off that same thing. Like if you're talking about a car accident and you shatter your leg and you don't do your own healing, even if you weren't driving, even if you were just a bystander to it, but you still got impacted, in order for you to walk again and to live the life that you want to have, healing has got to be a part of it. I mean, we're just doing stories of healing videos, right? We've been doing this campaign at the end of last year and one of the things that one of the recent ones that we had done was the wife's like, I'm not addicted to porn. I don't have to do like be in a group. And I think that's the thought, like at first it's, you need to get healthy sexually is what I think a lot of betrayed spouses maybe hear when group is first approached. But in reality that's not what's happening. That's not what we're going after. We're going after addressing the betrayal trauma that they've just experienced. And so I think that that is one of the thoughts too or the hurdles is like, well, I, I don't have a porn addiction. I am sexually healthy.

Well, another reason a betrayed spouse might not want to engage is because this is very, very painful. And they may see that to engage with my spouse or to engage in this process just to open my mind and my heart and my thoughts up to that just reignites the pain and the sense of loss or hurt or anger. And sometimes it's almost self protection of just, I don't know if I'm ready or able to face that pain right now. So I think if we're the struggling or addicted spouse, part of that is learning to accept that and be okay. Like maybe right now it does feel too painful. And what that also can lead into for the betrayed spouse is because of the amount of pain that it's already caused and wondering about how much pain would we have to face to work through this. They may be asking themselves that question, is it worth it? Like, are they going to change? Is There hope, is there a possibility of a better or different future? Because if there's not, why would I open myself up to even more pain? So, again, I want to speak to the maybe struggling or addicted spouse your partner may be looking to you asking themselves that question, is it worth it? Is it worth me opening up to this pain of working through this relationship? And part of how they'll answer that question is what they see you doing, what steps do they see you taking to own your issues, to really work on it in a new and different way. Because when they start to have some hope that I actually see a different future, then their willingness to engage and maybe be open to the pain of the relationship, I think can increase. So if you're on that struggle or addicted side, be aware of that reality.

Yeah. And I just want to make it really clear that this episode is not directed towards someone who is betrayed. We're really trying to talk to someone who is struggling or is the addict and how to approach this situation. And so if you are listening and you have experienced betrayal, this is not trying to condemn you. This is not trying to come down on you. This is trying to help those that have done this thing, that have caused this betrayal trauma in your life, how to process it and walk with you through this.

And if you're a betrayed spouse listening to this episode, you're probably already starting to engage in the process. So good for you. Totally keep at it. We're on your side.

Yeah. So let's keep on this. This idea of the struggling or addicted spouse. So if that's who we are, and our husband, our wife, our betrayed spouse, is not desiring healing, is it ever okay for us to encourage them to get that healing?

I think that this is an area where you want to tread lightly only because if I mean, and I know that that's common, especially when the spouse who is the one struggling, they start. They get into a group or they find help and their perspective changes and they're finding freedom, and they want that same freedom for their spouse and for their entire family. I think that that's a natural behavior. At the same time, your spouse, the one that you hurt, the one that doesn't trust you, the one that is struggling with all of this, your voice might not be the one they want to listen to.

I would argue it's not at all, especially early on.

And this is another thing that's really common. We've seen churches that. And I think, because a lot of times the person struggling gets into a group, and then the Betrayed spouse gets into a group later. But we've seen even pastors who will send a letter to the spouse, to the wife of every person who's in a seven pillars group and send a copy of Stories for Women and a letter and just kind of invite them into this idea. The other thing that is very effective is to have a spouse especially. I mean, you see this more with women. And so I'm kind of talking in that direction, but that you'd have somebody who is a betrayed spouse, who's been through group, who's gotten healing, give her testimony at some women's function, you know what I mean? Because there's so much power in that. I think that those might be a better approach or a more helpful approach for the spouse who's healing.

Yeah. And I agree. You need to tread lightly. And what comes to mind for me is the tone and the demeanor we use in bringing this up, you know, and so if our attitude is, what's wrong with you? Why are you always so angry? You should get in a group and you need to forgive me, or when are you going to let go of this? Or if we come across as having any sense of our rights or, well, I'm doing my work. What's wrong with you? I mean, that's every time going to be a negative conversation. But if we can come with a humble tone out of a demeanor of care and respect for our spouse, to maybe phrase it in a way to say, it seems to me like you're hurting. And I'm aware of a group for women that are going through this process. Here's the information. Like, if you need to take the next step, that's for you. Or here's a book I've heard of, and not forcing it on them, not saying, well, you need this, so read it. But just being supportive to say, I know I've caused you deep pain, and you may need someone other than me to help you walk through that. Could I help get you connected to a counselor? Or I've read this book, I've heard of this group. And then leaving that option to them. That tone and demeanor is so different and may even display to the spouse, like, oh, that's a different approach. Usually they tell me what to do, and now they're just offering something and being supportive. That can be something then that they think about.

And I mean, I'm gonna be honest here. Like, if you are the spouse who's struggling and you are doing that, you're buying them resources, you're telling them to do this, forgive me already. What you're doing is you're still in your addictive behavior. You're still controlling and trying manage and trying to project. And that is not a sign of health. That's a sign that you're still in your negative patterns. But maybe you're going to group, you're just like basically copying that and pasting it in your marriage, trying to gain more control. I would just say from my perspective, and I want to be careful because if you are someone who's struggling and you're listening to this, some of this stuff may sound shaming and we're not shaming you. This is something that many of us have had to walk through and we're just sharing our experience on how best to do it to the best of our knowledge. What I would encourage you to do or to consider is that your healing will do the convincing. If you are doing your work, if you are in group, if you're consistently reaching out to your group members, and this is for men and women who struggle, if you're doing the work, change will happen and your spouse will see it. And it's not something that's like, hey honey, look how much I'm changing. You know, it's like, do not bring attention to it. Do the work. And also understand that you need to develop empathy toward your spouse that you have betrayed. And so that is a part of the process. You'll have that as you go through your recovery. But understand that you should let that the fruit of the work that you're doing, be what convinces your spouse that, wow, there is change. This is, as you were mentioning, this is something that can work.

And we need to realize that that timeline might be a lot longer than we expect. Absolutely. Because I've talked with a lot of strugglers or addicts. Like, man, it's. This last month has been amazing. Why are they still angry? It's like, dude, it's been a month. They may need a year.

Your struggle was 13 years long.

They may need a few years of consistency. So I just be careful not to put a timeline on it, but just continue to walk in what you can do towards freedom and it will have a long term impact and trust that.

The people who are around you in your life will also see that and can be a voice of that towards your spouse. Can say, you know, I am seeing this change, man. Pure desire or whatever recovery program you're in, this is really working. And it's that principle, as a youth pastor, I would say almost verbatim, the things to kids that their parents said to them. But it's like as if the first time they'd ever heard it and the heavens opened up and they're like, wow, Trevor, this is life changing. The parents are like, what on earth is going on? And it's because I'm not their parent. Right. And the same thing is true in this. Like, if you're the spouse who has done the betraying, your voice is not going to be the one who carries the most weight. And so also leave room for other voices to speak into your spouse's life.

Yeah, that's super good.

Yeah. So let's flesh this out a little bit. What are the effects on a family or a marriage when only one of the spouses pursues healing after addiction and betrayal?

So I think that this is critical only because of knowing what the person who's struggling, what's in their curriculum. I mean, even if they're in group and they're doing well, at some point, part of the work that they're going to do is going to affect their spouse. They need to have a full disclosure or they're going to write a letter, or they're going to do these other things. And if the betrayed spouse is not in a group, then they're gonna be re traumatized. They're not gonna have the support that they need. They're. You know what I mean? And so really, when it comes down to this issue, that's one of the key reasons why a betrayed spouse should be in a group. So that they have that support and they have other people who know what it feels like and who have walked this ahead of them and know that there's hope even when you don't feel like there's any hope. You know what I mean? And so that impact is huge on a spouse, and especially a spouse who is still stuck in that betrayal zone and is not moving forward, is not moving anywhere really. It's huge.

We've been having some conversations about this as it kind of comes up in life. And the conversation of what if a spouse is at least going to counseling and isn't and not necessarily pure desire counseling, but isn't in group. And something that I've been thinking a lot about is that there still is a sense of loneliness, that you're the only one going through this. You pay this counselor to help you process through stuff, but it's not like it's unprofessional for a counselor to share their perspective or their experience. Like that's not what you're there For. But the Betrayal and Beyond group or the Hope for Men groups, those are created for shared experience. When you walk into this group, you hear other people share about the betrayal they've experienced. And I will say this. The times in my life that I've experienced that, oh, my gosh, I'm not alone. Feels like cold water all the way down my body. It just. Is this such a calming feeling? I'm even kind of feeling it right now, just almost trying to remember what that's like. I am not alone. There are other people who are experiencing the same thing I'm experiencing. And we're in this together. And that as you're getting a disclosure or as you're processing through a really difficult week in recovery, that really is helpful. You have someone who you're not paying, who you can call and say, hey, this is going on. Let's talk through it. They're just community. Then for me, the effect of it amplifies in the sense of, you're not alone anymore.

I hate having cold water poured on my body, so we're gonna have to talk about that illustration later. But that's beside the point.

Warm oil, biblical stuff. I don't know.

The situations I've seen when only one half is pursuing healing is. It often creates a real lack of communication in the relationship because there's just a lot of places the couple doesn't know how to go together. So if the one person is finding healing and freedom, they don't really know how to share that with a spouse that maybe seems shut down and angry and. And they're not able to talk to others about what they're experiencing because they're in different places. And. And the other danger, I think, is that in this relationship, you can develop inadvertently a good guy, bad guy. Yeah, good woman, bad woman kind of mentality. Well, I'm pursuing healing and I'm in a better place, but mom still shut down, or dad's still angry and with the kids or friends, like, it just inadvertently creates this feeling of someone now is in the right. And it's really a. I say the word dangerous on purpose because I think it's the danger being that it's often the recovering addict that now feels healthier and can, in their human nature, just be a little judgmental of their spouse that's not pursuing healing yet. The origin of the whole situation is their own addiction and struggle. So we need to guard against ever having that attitude or mentality. But that, like I said, is the danger. We start to say, well, I'm Doing my work. Why not you? And so it's really unfortunate when that happens. We need to try to avoid that kind of mentality in our home.

Yep. So people in this situation that are maybe listening right now might ask this question. And what would you guys. How would you guys respond to this question? Should I still pursue my own healing even though my spouse isn't interested in pursuing their own?

Yes.

Next question.

Yes, yes, and yes. But I think that it goes back to Trevor. What you were saying earlier is that as they get healing, they're gonna change. I mean, their attitude is gonna change. And the struggling spouse. Yeah. As they get healing, it's gonna change everything about them, you know, over time. And I think there is a lot of power in a spouse who sees that change, doesn't listen to the words coming out of their mouth, because sometimes that can be dangerous. But it's more of that. I see that they're doing their work, and I see that they're going to group, and I see that they're not as angry, and I see that they're opening up emotionally to me. And all of those things carry so much power, I think, in the relationship. And it becomes really, I think, attractive to the spouse who has been betrayed. Yeah. I think there's power in it.

Yeah. I think of the question, is there ever a bad time to pursue health?

Right.

And so if you realize there's a place where you're experiencing sickness, whether you're the betrayed spouse or the struggling spouse, and you're ready to move into something healthier and better, now is a good time. And if you don't immediately have the support of your spouse the way you hoped or dreamed or thought, you know, keep going. Because it's not about their health. It's about yours. It's about what you're seeing in your life. And so, again, whether you're on the betrayed side or the struggler side, if you see the need and you see the hope of community, run after it. Run after it, because that, in the long run, will be good for everyone.

Absolutely.

Going to our next question here. Is healing in our marriage and relationship possible even if our betrayed spouse doesn't get their own healing? What kind of healing can we experience if it's not shared?

I think that that is tough. I mean, I think that the spouse who is struggling and really either spouse, but the spouse who is struggling, who pursues healing, I think that that will be great for them, and they'll experience great life change in that. But it's almost like they're gonna be trying to move forward, and they have. Still have a weight around their ankle, you know what I mean? Because it isn't something that they then share. I mean, I would again, like you were saying, Nick, always get into a group and get healthy and pursue that healing. But I think at some point, it will become divisive. It could become divisive in a marriage. And especially when the goal of both spouses who get healing is that at one point their healing is gonna catch up with each other, and then they're gonna move forward, healing together. It's that idea of, let's lock arms and do this together. But if one of them refuses to get healing, then how does it happen for the spouse who's struggling to fully get healed? You know what I mean?

And I want to say something. You. You mentioned the weight, like, around their ankles. It's a weight that the struggling spouse put on themselves because of their decision. Because I don't want a betrayed spouse to hear that and be like, well, I'm the weight that's keeping this person. Like, no, but it's that same idea that, like. And because bitterness is what's coming to mind, that's what's going to fester from one spouse or the other if there's this. This lag. You know what I mean? And honestly, you know, if you're a parent, you realize that everything. And I guess at some point, every parent realizes everything you do impacts your kids.

Yes.

Period. And so if you have kids, if you have a family, and there may be people who are listening who have grandkids, like, those kids are also going to be impacted by what you do. And so I would just ask that question, like, what legacy is being created? What sort of trajectory is being cast for the people who are coming behind you and your family?

Yeah. Yeah. I think for this situation, we do need to be careful that we don't think of our marriage as, like, either unhealed or healed. We're either bad or good. You know, we're either stuck or free. Because that could be discouraging of, well, until they get healing, we can't be in healing. Like, really, these are a continuum or I think of a spectrum where if you were addicted and they were unaware, you were, like, at the bottom of the spectrum. And when you started to face your addiction and they became aware, even though that was tremendously painful, you were actually taking steps towards healing and recovery. And if you're continuing in your healing and recovery, your relationship is moving down the spectrum. Now, can you get all the way to the other end without the spouse also starting to engage. Maybe not, but I don't want to have you think, well, then it's, what's the point? No, you are still moving in that direction. And again, as we've said, it's the greatest probability to engage the spouse is the more health that's coming into your life. And so don't get into this discouragement point of, well, we'll never be healthy, because health is not a place you arrive. It's a place we're working towards and a journey we're on. And that journey continues whether they're on it with you or not. I think it's just saying that when they are on it with you, it can speed up the process or help us go to another level. But there's definitely healing that can happen even if they're not on the same page with you.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think just inside that, you know, because I'm thinking of both spouses that might be listening to this, just asking the question, is my unwillingness to step into my own healing, is that hindering? Like, think about the future that could be available. And again, this is not a shaming thing. This is just asking the question, if it is something that you see impacting your relationship, consider if that hurdle were no longer there, where could our relationship be? Okay, so is there anything, and I've heard this question a lot, is there anything I can do to convince my spouse that they need healing from their betrayal trauma?

I don't know if that one just goes back to that other issue of treading lightly, because again, I think that as we get healthy, that we also start to recognize things in our spouse that maybe not that they have any kind of sexual issues or whatever, but maybe they have unresolved trauma from their family of origin, or maybe they have something else that is coming to light because of all of this. And you don't want to be the one that says, well, I've noticed this about you, and you really should get into counseling or you really need help.

It doesn't go well in any domain.

It doesn't. And so I think that you can encourage them. And it might be something that for the Sprouse who's struggling, when things come up and you take that humble approach, like you were saying, Nick, to say, you know what? I'm really sorry that you feel that way. How can I help you? Is there anything that I can do to help you and to just really put the focus on your spouse and what they're going through and kind of see where that goes, because it might be that that opens up opportunity for this different type of connection than you've ever had before. And again, trying to move both spouses to healing in some way.

Yeah, I think we can pray, and I mean that sincerely, to believe that God loves our spouse more than we do and wants them healthy more than we do, and to sincerely believe that as I pray and lift them up before God and ask for him to have mercy on them and lead them and that that's a powerful thing I can do. The other thing, and this is kind of maybe a way of flipping the script a little bit to think about it. If you go to your spouse rather than going to them asking, you know, why aren't you pursuing healing? I think an approach that says, honey, I'm really working hard on change in my life and I recognize my behaviors have been very detrimental to our relationship. But I'm wondering, are there any things you're still seeing in me that make you concerned that maybe I'm not changing that feel like the same old pattern to you or that make you feel like maybe I'm just trying to do this to make you happy, but I'm not really changing and open it up more to focus on your journey. Because what I have found in a lot of stories is a recovering struggler or addict who thinks they're doing awesome. And maybe as far as the actual presenting behavior, they've abstained from it. But if they were to ask that question to the spouse, the spouse is like, no, you're still controlling me or you're telling me what to do or any number of things that maybe we're blind to because honestly, that's a part of addiction and struggle is we have a lot of self denial. And I know I did. I mean, I'm saying myself in that category. There are things we can't see about how we've treated other people. And so that may be a big roadblock to our spouse, is they would consider their healing. But they're just worried you're going to keep trying to control them. And if you would in real sincerity ask a question like that and they could speak into some things they're seeing, then you might begin to do some work in your relationship in a way that opens the door for them to move in. And until you ask questions like that, you may not know. So in the behavior side, you're doing awesome. But in terms of really helping your spouse, there's maybe things they're still seeing that are keeping them concerned and keeping this all at arm's length. So have the courage to ask that question and really listen. You know, when they give some answers, the worst thing you could do is protest or get defensive or say, well, what? Just listen and then say, wow, thank you for telling me that. I'm really going to work on that. And that could be a difference maker.

Totally. So what? It happens often a betrayed spouse will get angry. And it's not an irrational anger, It's a rational anger based on what has happened. When a betrayed spouse gets angry. And we are the struggling spouse, how, I guess if at all, how do we manage that in a healthy way?

Yeah.

And I think that is really common, especially because the spouse who is struggling, who's now getting healing, they are happy. You know what I mean? They are finding freedom and it's affecting their attitude and everything about them. And the betrayed spouse, that even makes them more mad, you know, is it, how could you have hurt me this way? And now you're happy. I mean, it just seems.

Stop it.

I know. And you still want to probably hurt them a little bit. And so it's one of those things too, that you have to sometimes. Yeah. But I think that it comes from that idea of saying, you know, I can see that you're really angry about this and I am so sorry, you know, and just owning that, I think is a really good start. It might not take away the spouse's anger, but at the same time, it still is owning it to say, you're right.

But I feel like so many people when they hear that perspective, because I know I felt this way at times. It feels like you just continue to dump on yourself. Like, you're just like, I, I continue to play this I messed up, I'm so sorry card. And like, you don't have to do that. But it is still true. You still, like, the decisions that you made have gravely impacted the trust in your marriage and have hurt your spouse significantly. And so it's not a way of. Just like, you keep having to play this character of, like, I'm the perpetrator, I'm the one who ruined our marriage, blah, blah. Like, you don't have to dump on yourself in that sense. Like, it's not. You can still own the healing that you're experiencing. That's okay. But I think that there comes a point where you're almost flaunting it in front of your, like, again, like, honey, look how healthy I am. You know, like, that. That is never going to help. That's just gonna make them more upset. And if I were watching you do that to your spouse, it'd make me upset. But I just. I want to make that distinction, that it's. You don't have to continue. You have to continue hating yourself and shaming yourself and beating yourself up. That's not empathy. That it's different than empathy. Empathy is an understanding of someone's experience. And you can, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but it is an awareness of how they're feeling and trying to understand it that's different than shaming or dumping on yourself.

Well, and what you're bringing up is making sure that our spouse's words aren't what define our identity value or worth. Because if that's what, you know, they may be just venting very legitimate emotions that are not very rational, but it's just what's in there and stuff's coming out. And if we take that as, yeah, I'm worthless, I'm horrible, it's like, what was really helpful to me as someone, that a lot of our conversations, that I was trying to do it right, but would lead to anger, and rightfully so. And so a phrase that I learned that just became so helpful. And it was probably from my counselor, I can't recall, but. But as my wife was getting into that anger, I would have this phrase I'd say to myself, where I would say, I created this anger in her. I need to help her get it out. I need to allow her to process it.

Wow.

And if I could focus on. And that doesn't mean I was responsible for 100% of the anger in my wife's life. I wasn't just being a scapegoat, but it was recognizing I had done some deeply hurtful things that weren't just going to go away easily. And if I could believe this is just anger that I helped put there, I can receive it. I can just let her vent and get it out. And as you said, Heather, that attitude of, I know I've really hurt you, and I'm sorry, versus my other natural reaction is that defensiveness, or what we might call entitlement of, whoa, I don't deserve to be treated like that, or, well, what you said, that's not accurate because what that would come across to my wife, and in so many situations, it comes across as, you don't know what you're talking about, about, or you're wrong, and that would just feel like more of the same to her.

Yeah.

And so I had to really quiet that Defensive mechanism. Because what I realized looking back is what was happening is she was 90% accurate in what she was saying. But there would be 10% that felt off to me and I would go after the 10% where she was misinterpreting or exaggerating. And that to her would make it feel like I invalidated 100% of what she just said.

Yes.

So that'd be my, my final suggestion here is when your spouse is maybe venting the anger, try to focus on the heart of it. That is very true and accurate. Don't get caught up on the little bit of how she misremembered something or made a claim that you disagree. Like, just ignore that part. Focus on the real heart of what she's sharing and allow that to come out. Because that, that I think is part of the healing. That anger is being faced, it's being expressed, and when you can receive it in a non defensive, non entitled way. I know my wife said, had, had you responded differently in some of those conversations, I don't know if we would have made it. But that you let me be angry and received it and apologized gave me some hope that this was going to be different. So maybe keep that in mind, like if I'll let them process the anger, it's actually leading us towards recovery.

And like, maybe you need to pause this episode right now and write that down. Because I think that that principle can be applied to any relationship and that'll preach to any relationship, especially in this one.

Yeah. So here's a great question. If we're in that situation where we feel like there's some discontinuity between where we're at and our spouse, how much should I be sharing with them? If they aren't in a betrayal group, what's appropriate to come home and talk about?

See, and this one goes back to that same thing, that this is tough because there are some things that, I mean, we talk all the time about having honesty in recovery. You know that if you are in recovery, if you're in a group and you relapse, then you need to be honest. Right. And you need to tell your spouse. But at the same time, if your spouse doesn't have that support, are you then just creating more hurt for your spouse? And I think that that is really hard. It's a hard place to be. But it's a real life situation. I think that that happens all the time when the spouse doesn't have any kind of support or any way to process that. And you know what I mean? And now you've just contributed more pain to your spouse.

Yeah, I think this principle is good. When answering any question like this, asking permission to share is always gonna be beneficial. Saying, you know, I've been learning some things in group, and is it okay if I share some of the things I've been learning? And if the answer is no, then, buddy, it's no. Don't share it. That's why your group is there. That's why you have community around you, so that you do have people to process this with. There will come a time where the answer is yes if you're doing your work. That's what I believe. But I think that asking permission and then when your betrayed spouse says yes, then just sharing your experience. And again, when you, like, pose it that way, it's not a, like, manipulative. So guess what I learned at group this week, and blah, blah, blah. And there they might hear, you're just trying to convince me that I've done something wrong or that I need my own healing. But if it's something where it's that humble posture, which we've already talked about, and it's like, hey, I really feel like I figured some things out this week. Can I share my experience? And the answer is yes, there's your open door to just share only your experience, what you've been processing.

Here's what's not to share. Don't come home. Or don't come to your spouse and say, hey, listen to what I learned about you. Listen to what I learned about betrayed spouses. Listen to what I learned about healthy marriages and how we can become one. And because usually that will just. That will come across wrong. Even if your intention is sincere, don't go there. Maybe you did learn that, but it's probably not the time or place to try to tell them how they can then fix their problems. I think what can be shared is, could I share what I learned about myself? You know, this week's lesson really helped me see that I am. I'm easily triggered by feeling disrespected. And I think that comes from the relationship I had with my dad growing up and how certain things would make me feel disrespected. And so I realized when some things happen in our relationship, I get really easily triggered and angry. And so here's something I'm going to work on this week, and I hope you'll notice that. And I just. I thought it'd be good to share that I learned that. So when you're sharing what you're Learning about you on a deeper level and not just about like your struggle or lust or I mean, because those things can be very triggering for your spouse when it's more on that level of, here's what I've discovered about me that needs to change, and I'm working on it. That again, can be insightful for a spouse to go, oh, I've seen that for 10 years I've been trying to tell him or her. And yet when they can express it from what they see, it's like, okay, this sounds good. And again, can make them intrigued. Where a spouse might begin to say, tell me more about that, or where did you learn that? Or what did you read? Because they're seeing something positive that makes them hopeful.

And be careful with that to not posture it as an excuse for your behavior, because I think it's really easy for even if you aren't saying it that way, the betrayed spouse may perceive it like you're just justifying your behavior based on this thing you learned about your family of origin or that you realize when I do this, you feel disrespected. So it's got to be, again, humble posture saying, I see this, it's bad, I want to address it. And not a and this is why every time you do this, I do this, and then it hurts you, and then we do this. Like, don't share it like that. Okay, so the terminology I like to use, the aspirational identity. Okay. Nick makes fun of me sometimes for saying that he seems thinks it's a fancy word phrase. Let's paint the picture of what a marriage does look like when both spouses, this family systems issue, are processing their own story and on their own healing journey. What does that marriage start to look like?

I think that that marriage at some point will look like both spouses locking arms, moving in the same direction for their healing and even moving in the same direction for their individual healing as well as for the healing for their marriage and for their family. And I think that, and this is one thing that while we were having this conversation that popped into my mind was I remember being in group, being in a betrayal and beyond group. And I had already I'd gone through divorce, I'd been remarried for dozen for a dozen years at least. And I'm in this group to still just kind of process stuff. And I remember writing something down that even when I'm writing, writing it out and then telling it to my group that I was kind of teary. And so of course that just told me that There was still some hurt there. But then to have the other women in my group speak into that, and that was so healing for me, even after all of those years, but to just have that sympathy and empathy and to have them and because it was later in our group, so we knew each other really well and we were tightly connected. And just that right there is so healing and so powerful. And like, we've talked about the shared experience, but I think that sometimes when you're in this situation, you can't imagine that somebody else could feel, could understand how you feel. And yet in your group, they do understand how you feel, and they know how you feel. And they've been there, done that, and you know what I mean, it just is so great. And I think that that's really what that marriage turns out to be. You know what I mean, is that like you were saying, Nick, that you are going to learn these different things about yourself individually, which is great, but then you are going to move forward in your healing and you're going to be honest with each other and communicate better with each other and be vulnerable with each other where it used to feel scary. And so I just think that there's a lot of really good things that happen in a marriage when a couple can heal together.

Yeah, it looks like mutual support. You know, I'm proud of you for what you're doing. How can I help? How can I be a part of what's going on in your life? I believe it looks like encouragement. You're doing great. What else do you need? I think also it's speaking the same language about our recovery is so valuable. Huge emotional awareness and the faster scale or commitment to change or being able to talk about triggers or where's that on your three circles? I mean, that's what I love when couples are in that kind of dialogue together because they have the tools and a little piece about that. When you can put the focus on the tool and not just the person, it's a little easier to have the conversation. So maybe you're aware of your concern. Your spouse is maybe not aware of some boundaries they've committed to and asking about, you know, where's is this on your middle circle? I thought I remember you sharing that with me. And. And let's go back to that tool and talk about it. It just, even in those hard conversations, it gives you some. Some shared tools to use. And I believe ultimately people on this path together, it looks like true intimacy. That word we've defined as being able to be fully known and Fully loved by someone, that there's nothing hidden, nothing secretive, nothing that I have to pretend isn't there. Because I know that I'm loved and accepted for who I am. And that doesn't mean I just accept all those things. And while I am who I am, big deal. But an awareness of. I'm moving towards health. But in the midst of that, I have a spouse that knows me and loves me, and I offer that to them as well. And so that kind of picture, to me, is the ideal.

Yeah. I think the only thing I'd say is it just becomes our story in a way. That's what we share together to people. And I think that, you know, people hearing, like, if, you know, struggling spouses and betrayed spouses are out there having a coherent story, that both spouses are sharing their experience and their story throughout, this just creates an opportunity for other people. There is someone like me, you know, if it's just a struggling spouse who's on stage sharing all this freedom, that doesn't hit the betrayed spouse. Like, it just doesn't. But if you have a couple up there who are sharing their story together, sharing their experience together and how they heal together, it opens doors for people. So I think that that story together helps.

Yeah. If I could just say one more thing as we look to wrap up this episode, I'm guessing, you know, I always try to hear the. The listeners that may have an objection or feeling they just didn't get it, that there may be some listeners that are feeling about their spouse who's not in recovery, like they just don't get it, or they're just so angry or there's something wrong with them, or they don't know my spouse. It's never going to change. Or I would like to say that if you are in the first year or two of your recovery, you may not be healthy enough to have an accurate assessment of where your spouse is even at. Because. And I say this because I've picked up from people who are in the first few months in, and they're getting very frustrated about where their spouse is at, but I can see enough into their story and like, you're not as healthy as you think you are, or you've not made as much progress as you think you have. And I know you're in a better place than you were a few months ago, but your spouse is still watching and waiting and hurt and wounded. And so just my encouragement, if that's where you're at and you're early in recovery, you just need to keep going and leaning into your recovery and quit worrying about, is he angry or is she still angry? Or why is she stuck? Or why won't she? Like, I don't think you. You're healthy enough to really honestly assess that. On the other side, if you are, you know, you're going into years, three or four or beyond, and you do still have a lot of frustration about a place you feel your spouse is stuck. That really is, I think, a time you want to pursue some counseling for yourself, to go to an expert and really process, like, here's what I'm seeing in my spouse, and I don't know what to do about it. I mean, I've made these steps for a few years and get some input. Because if you've been stuck now for a long time, that may be where you've got to get some outside advice or a group leader that knows you both and could offer some perspective. So just an idea there, because I've heard those kind of situations come up a lot.

Totally. And as we talked about this entire episode, this is a really difficult situation to be in. This is. It's not. Any of our answers are not going to work in every single situation. Everyone's story is different. Everyone's context in their marriage is different. But the idea is, is that regardless of where you're at, pursue your healing. That's the best thing that you can do. And you know, Nick, you talked about praying, just trust the Lord, that he's going to use that process in your life and your spouse's life and the lives of your kids and those around you in your community. And so just understand that this is going to be difficult regardless. Something that's coming to mind, especially as we're wrapping up. If you are a struggling spouse and your spouse, your betrayed spouse is not in group, do not bring this episode to them and say, hey, listen to this.

Don't do that. I got an episode for you.

Don't do that. I know it's tempting. Don't do it. Continue to go through your process and understand that the work that you are going to do in your own recovery is going to have an impact. And I would just say this. In my own healing journey, you have no idea the impact it's going to have. You have zero idea at this point how God can use it. And so just trust that he's going to use it. Trust that the hard work that you're doing of getting healthy, pursuing him, pursuing your own health, it's going to. It's going to do great things. So Heather, thank you for being here. Thanks for talking about it. And Nick too man. Just sharing you guys story. It's really helpful.

This was a good chat.

Great to be here.

Wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you are a subscriber, please write a review. It helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy. It.