186 - God & The LGBT Community w/ Janet Boynes

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

What's up? What's up?

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 186 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

It's a honey of an O. Tiny Nut Cheerios.

I have never heard that jingle in my life.

Are you serious?

Serious?

Maybe you're not quite into that genre of kids television because it seems like they do a lot of advertising for Honey Nut Cheerios. But you know, I was thinking about when I was a kid, there was like Cheerios and Honey Nut. Like that was the special cereal, Honey Nut Cheerios. And now they've got like everything under the sun. I mean, apple cinnamon was the next, but then they've gone into, I mean, you go to the Cheerios aisle, it's like it needs its own separate aisle at the store just because how many varieties there are. And I'll actually link that to our podcast in just a minute.

So serious question though. What's your favorite cereal of all time?

You know, I was a big, big Cinnamon Toast Crunch fan, but something happened a few years ago, like the whole sugar is bad for you thing. They changed the recipe and it's not as good. But that's still kind of my go to.

Okay, okay. I would say Reese's Puffs is strong go to. All right, before we get to this episode, a couple first subscribe to the podcast. If you're not, please do it. Don't wait. You can find us on all the major platforms and if you can give us a review, it helps others find the podcast. Also, follow us on social media, earedesirepdmi, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. I think we even have a LinkedIn, but don't check because I haven't been on it in a while. And we also are now putting full episodes up on YouTube. Search Pure Desire Ministries. And then Nick, we're really excited to announce a new virtual event coming to you, whoever you are. Listener March 5th and 6th. It's the virtual Pure Desire groups conference. Why don't you tell the people about it?

Yes, this is content we're super excited about. You know, we got to share it in the fall of 2020 in Dallas, Texas. And this groups conference, our vision. And we still hope this happens one day, but that these would be regional in person events people could come to. But the way the world is, it's like we didn't want to Wait for. For people to have access to that content when we could actually do them live. So we said, hey, for 2021, let's do this virtually. And the heart behind it is to say, if you are in a group, this conference was designed for you. We believe that it will maximize your group experience. It will help you understand at a deeper level what's going on in your own heart, mind, and brain, whether you are the struggler or the one being impacted by someone else's struggle. And if you're a group leader, I think it's just going to give you more tools and ideas and a greater sense of what is it look like to lead my group. Well, and so there's what I love about it, there's a lot of variety of content, from kind of the vision philosophical side to the very nitty gritty nuts and bolts of like, how do we handle this in group? And so, again, whether you're in the group or the group leader, we designed this for you. And so if you're listening and you're in a group, I hope you'll go to the webpage, you'll check it out, and you'll consider attending because you can watch it live with us, right?

Yep.

Or you'll also have content to those sessions for a number of weeks where you could watch them one at a time if you need to. So whatever method people use to consume the content, I just think it's going to be a huge shot in the arm for their group experience and the transformation that they're looking for.

Yep. So you can go to PureDesire.orggroups-conference for more information. And you can register for this virtual event. Tickets are currently $59, and it's $19 for any additional viewer who wants to watch on the same screen. So they would need to have that manual is what that is. Digital manual. So $19 for that. And we are excited to see you on March 5th. Well, okay. Today on our episode, we were blessed to have Janet Boynes with us, who is the founder and CEO of Janet Boynes Ministry. She's a licensed pastor as an author of a few books, including Called Out A Former Lesbian's Discovery of Freedom and God and Sexuality, Truth and Relevance Without Compromise. And we had her on to talk about, really, the church and the LGBT community. Yeah.

And it's a conversation, I think, that many don't know how to have, or it becomes controversial so quickly. And so that was our goal is just to we want to talk about these topics and recognize how this does connect to Sexuality and some of the things we're trying to help people understand about God's goodness in our sexuality. And what does it look like to walk in freedom and transformation? And the link to the intro. You know, I think for a lot of leaders and pastors, they were comfortable in an environment where I minister to men or women and couples. And now it's like, well, there's men who think they're women and women who think they're men and men who like men. And it just gets for us maybe feels more and more varied and diverse. We're just like, I really don't know how to deal with it. It's too many varieties. I just want to go back to. I minister to men and women and kind of ignore all the rest of this. And yet we're in an era that these things cannot be avoided because they're on people's hearts and minds, whether it's something that that is happening in their own life or with a friend, a family member. And we need to have biblical, thoughtful responses. And I think as folks listen to Janet, they may not 100% agree with everything they hear from her or about her take. But what I really appreciate is she has. She has a take that's rooted in God's word. And what she feels is that combination of grace and truth. And that's what I hope comes out of this podcast for people, is that we're really challenged to think about our sexuality, our desires, our emotions from a biblical lens and not just kind of buy into maybe more cultural or modern ideas of, well, I, you know, I am what I feel to say no, what. God has plans for us, and we want to really walk in those plans. So there's a lot in this episode, and I hope people really gain a lot from hearing it.

Absolutely. And here's our conversation with Janet Boynes. Janet, thank you for being with us and being on the Pure Desire podcast.

It's good to be here. Thanks, guys. I appreciate it.

We are super excited to have you with us. And the more I have heard about your story, it is such a powerful story, and I'm going to try not to even talk about it now. I'm going to wait till we get into the questions and you sharing it, but I just know it's something that's so needed and something that can give so much hope to so many people who are listening. And so we're just excited to have you. Truly.

It'S always a pleasure to do a podcast and, you know, get to share, you know, what the Lord is doing in my life and how it's impacting our culture.

Yeah. Yeah. We're super excited to have you on for the first time, Janet, and want to just give you an opportunity here at the beginning. Take a few minutes and introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us all a little bit about how you came to start Janet Boynes Ministries and also called out International.

Yeah, Janet Boink's ministry started, I believe, probably when I was already ordained in my mother's womb. I just didn't know that. However, you know, I was supposed to get married in 1985. Three months before the wedding. I called it off and I was. It wasn't like I wasn't excited to get married. It's just. I just so happens to, you know, run into a woman that I got involved in a relationship with. And at that time, I was going to the Assemblies of God Church, and I wind up calling off my wedding three months before I was supposed to walk down the aisle. But when I came out of the life of homosexuality, which was in 1998, I started Janet Boynes Ministries in 2006.

Yeah, I have just noticed in the area of homosexuality, lgbt, there is, especially inside the church, there's just so much shame. So much shame, so much fear. And, you know, some of the listeners on our podcast know I had a same sex experience when I was 10 or 11, and that was the one thing in my entire negative sexual history. I was taken to the grave. That's it. That was the one thing I could tell everyone else, everything else, but that was the one thing. So how has, like, how did you break out of that shame? And God calling you out of that lifestyle, of that mindset? How did you break out of the shame? And then really, how has telling your story opened doors for you to minister to other people?

Boy, that. That's. That's a mouthful right there.

Yeah.

You know, shame is something that we know doesn't come from God, but I believe, I think it's an Isaiah, it says that God never calls you by your shame. He calls you by your name, you know, and so that's something that if we have so much shame, we're not willing to be transparent and share our stories. We have to get past that first. However, we know that in the church, in the body of Christ, we know the church is not a steeple or a stained glass window as the building. We are the church, and we are responsible for our own actions. You can train up a child in the way he or she should go, and as they get older, they won't depart. However, you and I, as you said earlier, you went through this type of experience. We're responsible for ourselves. We're responsible for our own healing. We can't continue to blame our parents for what happened in our past. So for me, I think it's important that the church, the Body of Christ, comes to a place where we understand that homosexuality is in our church. Transgenderism is inside our church. We have men and women that had gender reassignment surgeries in our church. However, if we don't address it, how are they going to find healing? Yeah, we're only here on one side. The world is telling, you know, everybody about homosexuality, but inside the church, we're not talking about it. And I believe the healing will come when 1. We start talking about it, and then men and women and families realize that. Okay, my pastor, my senior pastor, the church is open to me talking about it, and I believe that's when the healing will start coming.

That's good.

Yeah. When there's a culture of silence, really, around any topic, you know, that communicates to people, well, this is taboo, or it's off limits, or maybe even at its most detrimental form a belief that this is something God really has nothing to say about. And the truth is that.

Right.

That God has so much to say about where our identity and value comes from. What is the purpose and meaning of sex and our sexuality. And I think that's something that we would really share with you. And what you're doing is while we have kind of different angles that we're working on, I think we're both really intent on trying to address topics that the church just really doesn't know how to address. And so I'm wondering, as you share your story, how does that help churches kind of open up to this topic.

You hit the nail on his head. You said stories you think about in revelation, where in 12, it. It talked about. It says, for the accuser of. The brother and sister have been thrown down to earth. The one who accuses them before our God, day and night, here's the clincher. And they have defeated him by what, the blood of the lamb and by their testimonies. That's how we're going to defeat the devil. You know, that's how the gay community is defeating us. That's why their message is getting out. They're so good about sharing their stories. Our stories have impact. They are going to impact so many people because what they're relatable people can relate to us. So as I Continue to tell my story, and I travel out of the country within the United States, people can relate to me, and they're thinking, oh, wow, if she can go through that, then maybe I can go through and I can get through it as well. It's so important that the church allow us to come share our stories. And this is why the church will not allow us to come and share our stories. Because they're afraid that it's going to impact the body of Christ in a negative way, but instead it's going to impact them in a positive way, and they're not ready to open that can of worms.

I've been spending some time in Acts, and the theme in Acts that I'm learning is Holy Spirit and Witness. Those are the two things. And as I've been diving into it and learning, you know, and I'm nerding out commentaries and all that, but what I have learned is that it wasn't just speaking the truth of who Jesus was and what he taught. It was also sharing the experiences that they had that was powerful. And I think that that's one of the things that I know the churches I grew up in. I feel like it was a lot of truth and a lot of head knowledge, and this is logically, biblically accurate and not as much of the story. And so it's cool to kind of go in. And I'm learning that the early church used both. It was both. Here's who Jesus is and what he taught. Here's the Old Testament. We got the scrolls. Let's talk it out. But also sharing the experience of walking with Jesus and transformation with Jesus and just transformation together as a community. And so I completely agree.

Like, the woman at the well.

Yes. Yeah.

What did she do? She. She ran off and told her story.

Right, Exactly.

Look, y', all, look at this dude. You know, he's like, telling me all about my life. I mean, testimonies.

Yeah, absolutely.

They will impact you in a way that you would not believe. So I. And let me say this also, we blame the church as well. Look, the church hurt me. You know, I left a church. Well, that's a poor excuse, because there are restaurants that I go to or coffee places that I go to or stores that I go to that I don't like. If I don't like the food, what I do, I don't stop going to restaurants. I go find a restaurant that is appealing to me and that I like. Same thing with the church. Right. There's no more excuses, folks. If you're listening Today, if there's a church that is not meeting your needs, number one, seek to Holy Spirit first. If God doesn't tell you to leave, then you need to stay there and deal with that, because maybe God wants to deal with something within your heart. A lot of times we lead the church and we leave that covering that's over us. And we wonder why we're not making progress.

Yeah.

Get back to where God has told you to be. And I believe we're going to start seeing changes. A lot of times people are leaving because they are offended. Go and read John Bevere's book, you know, Debate of Satan, you know, where it talks about offense. Because I think offense in these last days is really hurting the body of Christ and hurting the church.

Yeah. And I think that's a reality that we face, is if something bothers us, if we don't like it, it sometimes is easier to run away or to avoid it or to not deal with it. I think that's one of the challenges and part of the reason behind even this podcast, that in the areas that we're talking about today of homosexuality, the LGBT community and that movement, transgenderism, those are topics the church can just feel like we don't really know what to say. It's controversial. People get offended. Culture has such a different message. We don't want to create, you know, a media storm of people asking questions. So people just, I think, for a lot of those reasons, avoid this in general. And so I'm curious to hear from you, Janet, and just for you to share some of your heart with us about why do you feel so called or why do you choose to lean into these hard topics rather than avoid them? Because you could have, you know, you came out of the lifestyle and met God in a powerful way, and there was healing there. You could have just moved on and gone into kind of a general teaching ministry like so many do. But there was a point where you clearly said, no, this is going to be what I am ministering to people about. I'm going to make it the focal point. So why that choice to lean into this rather than avoid it?

Nick? I would like to avoid it someday.

Yeah, for sure.

That's good. On it. For sure.

Hey, there's some days when I'm just ready to throw in the towel and I say, lord, I'm done. I'm not dealing with the church anymore. I'm not dealing with this world anymore. We are getting such a backlash. You know, anytime somebody emails you and said, if you were burning, I wouldn't even throw water on you, you know, that's the. That's what we get from the gay community. But what I think is so important, the reason why I have dove into is one I'm called. Many are called fewer chosen. He has given me to grace, the grace to do what I'm doing in this particular area dealing with homosexuality, knowing I am in the devil's territory. And believe me, this is not going away. I believe this is here to stay until Jesus return. This is part of the end times that we're dealing with. You have men that are transitioning into women and women that are transitioning men. They don't know who they are from one day to the next. But I believe, for me is that most people have went dormant. We have went silent. God has given me a passion and a love for those that are struggling in this particular area. See, I'm not the only one in my family that has dealt with homosexuality. My brother in 1999 died of AIDS, a terrible, terrible death. And he was gay. And I believe I'll see him again because three months, three days before he died, he told my. My aunt he was right with God.

Wow.

But we are being censored as the church. The gay community doesn't want to get us. Doesn't want us to get our stories out.

Yeah.

And why are they so pressed against stopping us and silencing us is because we have a message and we can debunk a lot of the things that they're saying. That's why CNN or MSNBC or Good Morning America or Today show, they won't have us on their shows. They figure if they can silence us, they win, then they can get their stories out. However, we have to depend on people like my good friend Joni Lamb or. Or James Robeson, my spiritual dad, and. And shows like that to. To put us on their. Their show so we can get the message out that change is possible through the power of Jesus Christ. And then we have people like Biden, who, when he wants. When he gets into office. If he gets into office, which it looks like he will.

Yes.

He said, look, transgenders, I'm going to allow you to go into the women's bathroom. If you're a born a man, then, yes, I want you to go into women's bathrooms. Are you kidding me? And the body of Christ in the church won't speak up. What a disservice we are doing to our grandkids, which I don't have any, and I never been married. And if there's A guy out there that's looking for a wife. I'm still believing God for a husband.

Yes. So good.

Just putting it out there.

Hey, we're happy to play matchmaker. No problem.

Hey.

Yeah.

I'm telling you. But we. It's so important that we do our part as the church.

Yeah.

To assist. Assist men and women that are struggling and get the message out. And someday we're all going to stand before the Lord and we're going to be accountable for what we. We're doing.

Yeah.

You know, you said this earlier, I believe Trevor, is that you can come out of anything, but homosexuality is still in the balance.

Yeah.

Because everybody has. Is afraid of it. And Satan has put that fear in everybody's hearts and minds so they won't speak on.

Yeah. I think one thing, too, Janet, that I would. I would add, just from my experience, is that I think the church almost censors itself at times because of fear, because of lack of information. And we've talked about this before. I'm thinking of a conversation we had with a local pastor, Keith Jenkins, where we were talking about this idea that we want, like, a clean Christianity that isn't messy and isn't complicated. But when you get into topics like this, it is messy and it is complicated. And because of that, we're afraid. And I truly believe this. I think fear in some ways has really taken over the church in this area to speak out. Because what if this or what if that, or what if we mess it up, or what if we hurt people? And in reality, staying silent is just as detrimental as maybe saying the wrong thing. But at least we're trying something. And so I think that that's just been my experience.

Oh, when you discover the truth and you've been free, what do you want to do? You want to scream it from the mountaintop? You want to tell them what Jesus has done in your heart and in your life. There's so much backwards thinking regarding homosexuality. Good has become evil, and evil has become good. Light has become dark, and dark has become light. Where are we going in this world today? I believe we're in the end of the end times, and time is running out. I believe we have a short window, and I am a force to be reckoned with. So if you want to take me out, you better kill me. But if you try to kill me, don't miss, right? Don't miss, because you're only going to have one chance to do it, and I'm not willing to back down from anybody. It's Only by the grace of God that I can do what I'm doing. As my good friend Michelle Bachman says, you're going to have to have a titanium spine in these last names.

That's awesome. I want to go back to something you said, Janet, because I thought it was so crucial when you were talking about folks that are in the midst of these transitions and you said they don't know who they are one day to the next. And I really think that is at the crux of this issue and will probably come up quite a bit in this podcast. But it doesn't matter. Whether we're talking about struggles with sexual addiction or homosexuality or any other kind of battle that people face. I think so much of it comes down to this sense of not knowing who we are, then makes us susceptible to latch onto all kinds of things that provide some sense of identity or worth or meaning, even if it's completely flawed and unhealthy. And so I think at the end of the day, that's a crucial topic we want to keep emphasizing here, is that behavioral change comes out of a change of identity, a sense of who I am. Because if who I am is made right before God and what the gospel says about who I am, I am, then the behaviors that I choose or enter into are very, very different because that. That worth and identity piece is what gets solved first and at a deeper level.

Yes, identity, I think, is very important. Let me. I'm not asking you the questions, but I'll ask your viewers a question. When you have a child, women have a child. What is the first thing the doctor says? It's a boy or it's a girl. There's no mistake about your gender. But a lot of times people just don't know who they are because we haven't explained who they are when they were growing up as a child, my mother never told me about the birds and the bees. Only thing I knew is that when certain things happen, I better not get pregnant, you know? But they didn't sit us down and talk about the things our sexuality and, and the importance of I'm praying for your spouse, whether you're a boy. And mom says, hey. Or dad says, hey, I'm praying for your wife or your girl. And. And dad and mom say, hey, I'm praying for your husband. We got to talk about these things. But who are we? Jesus always told us who we are. Yeah. You know, we are made in his image. But the world has told us something different.

Now.

The world is saying that children are taught that sexual identity is fluid instead of biologically based. And I think we have to talk more about that as a family, because where does it all start?

Right.

Starts in the family.

Exactly right. So, Janet, and I've heard this a lot, too, that the voice of our culture will say to the area of homosexuality, transgenderism, I'm just made this way. I can't help it who I am or who I'm attracted to. And this is. I'm excited to hear your perspective, because I don't even know how to answer this question. How do we help people basically evaluate or reevaluate that perspective in a biblical lens? Like, you can't just come in front of someone and say, hey, you're an idiot. That's stupid. And expect there to be change and transformation. Not that the Holy Spirit couldn't work maybe through that for some people, but how would you approach that conversation as.

Far as people feeling that they aren't who the world says that they are? You know what, Our feelings are fickle and they're not reliable. That's why it says in Jeremiah that instructs us on why we. Our feelings can't be trusted. It says, the heart is, what, deceitful, then all else, and desperately sick. Who can understand it? You know, our hearts are deceitful and wicked. You know, and a lot of times we are so broken and so wounded that we are searching for somebody to help us heal from a lot of our shortfalls. But I believe that if we get to a place where we reach out and go to somebody and say, hey, I'm broken. I'm hurt. Will you help me? I believe people's lives will change. But a lot of times when our kids are dealing with these identity issues or they are not sure who they are and they go to their parents or to go to a friend, they're judged. You know, he does without sin, cast the first stone. And we're going to have to go to them with grace and understanding. Look, I might not understand what you're dealing with. However, I know I have people that can help you and assist you. Will you allow me to introduce you to somebody that can help you or who might be able to assist you? Will you least just talk with them? But that's not the first response. The first thing we want to do is cut them down and beat them up. And then who are they going to run to? They're going to run to those who they feel that are going to accept them and love them. And we just have to be open to more of loving people instead of judging them.

So when, you know, when someone comes to you at an event or as you've spoken and they kind of repeat those lines of our culture, says, well, I can't help. I can't help it. I just, that's. This is who I am. How do you help them rethink that change or freedom from a lifestyle is possible?

You know, children and young people, even sometimes adults never see the big picture. You know, that's why God has given us not only parents, but mentors, you know, people to come close to us that we can go to and talk with. You know, when, when I work with 15 and 16 year olds all the time, millennials, Gen Xers, married couples, however, I want to sit down and hear their story. It's all about them. You know, I want to engage and look in their eyes and let them know I'm listening to them. I hear their heart. And a lot of times we're always so quick to give an answer. Like the first thing people say, hey, Janet, I have a gay person at my job. What am I supposed to say to them? Nothing. Why don't you be kind to them? Because as you get to know people and you build what a relationship, then they're going to be open. You know, they're going to be open to not only what you have to say, but they're going to listen to what you have to say. Not all the time, but the majority of the time. My heart is to listen to this millennial or this Gen Xer, because we're losing a lot of our kids right now. Suicide rate is very high in the last two years. Very high. And we don't even talk about the suicide rate. Kids don't know who they are, and so they want to die because nobody is listening to them. So I want to listen to their heart, build a relationship with them. Yeah, I'm not going to tell them that they're going to hell. Yeah, I'm not going to tell them that they have to change. I just want to get to know them, spend time with them, whether it's via zoom, whether it's in person or over the phone. And then once I build that relationship, their heart is going to be open for me to receive. Are they going to change? Right. In a way, probably not. Because it's a process. Right. And you and I are not to change. Agent folks, stop trying to play God, Junior. Get out of the way and let God do what he does best. And that's transform lives.

Yes, that's. I Think one of the things that I've been challenged with over the last year is viewing. Basically, it's just, be more patient. Be patient in my own transformation. Be more patient in other people's transformation. Because becoming like Jesus is not an overnight thing. It's not a weekly thing. It's not a monthly thing. It's a lifelong thing. And I think that that's a reason why people maybe jump down people's throats and say, hey, change, fix, get better, is because we're actually a little bit impatient. Like, we want you to just get fixed and be done already. And that doesn't even work in your own life. How's it gonna work in someone else's life?

Exactly. You know, I don't want. When I answer questions, you know, I guess, you know, we have psychologists and we have psychiatrists, and I don't have a degree in. And counseling. I am ordained pastor. I have my credentials. You know, I want to come to people through the spiritual sense, you know, the biblical sense. I'm going to stay true to Genesis, to Revelation, and it's the love of God that will draw us to repentance. I totally believe that. And sometimes you do have to put your foot down and put down a hard hand and, you know, get in somebody's face, but that's not the very first thing you do. And that's what we're finding that a lot of people are doing not because they want to. It's because they don't have an understanding on how to deal with this issue. And I believe there's men and women like myself that God has raised up for such a time as this to be there to assist pastors and ministry leaders around the country. So they know how to deal with this, not only in their church, but also in our homes.

Yeah. So we live in a unique day and age, it feels like, Janet, where opposition isn't just coming from a cultural or a worldly point of view, but the way churches respond to this topic can be really varied right now. And so I'm just wondering, are there ways that you get pushback or disagreement from churches and Christians that don't like what you're doing? So what kind of pushback do you get, and how do you respond to that in a way to try to point people to the truth of scripture that you were just talking about?

I'm laughing because one of my board members actually, who used to travel with me, and she's the vice president of Janet Points Ministries, she wants me to run everything by her before I post things because sometimes I'm ready to strike back, you know, because they can be so vicious. And sometimes I go, no, they're going to hear my voice, you know, they're going to hear my heart, you know, and then you get this, oh, you're so mean. I'm not coming to your ministry. Bye. I tell them, you know what? Because we were not meant to be a doormat.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, you can't continue to step on us and push us around and not get a push back. I'm not always going to turn, turn the cheek. However, I think it's really important too to stand up for what you believe in. We have to, because the Bible says the truth will set you free. The gay community is not very kind to us. They don't really like us. But Jesus said it's really not about us, it's who's inside of us. That's who they don't like. They don't like Jesus that's inside of us. So if they hated him, they're going to hate us. So we as Christians got to realize that as we're in the last days, we're going to get pushed back. And we have not been fully tested. Our faith really hasn't been put to test. A gun hasn't been put to our head. You know, we haven't been hung by our toes and somebody said denounce Christ. But the gay community are looking to shut us down and silence us in every sense of the way. They literally want me thrown in jail. Is that time coming? Probably. Am I ready to go to jail? I will. I'm not afraid of going to jail for my faith. Now when a gun gets to my head, I'm going to have to trust God, you know what I mean? Because I don't know how I'm going to God. Where's your grace? I don't know how I'm going to respond, but the pushback is very difficult. Not just Nick and Trevor from the gay community, but I'm getting pushback from the people who I thought would stand by me. And that's my Christians brothers and sisters. They're calling me a liar. They're saying, how can you treat the gay community like that? What do you mean? That they're having a wedding or what the world calls a wedding. Don't call it a wedding. A marriage is between a man and a woman. It's a civil union. How dare us throw Christ under the bus and call that a wedding. But if I don't go to Somebody's civil union, then I'm called a hater. I'm called a bigot. I'm called every name in the book. And you know what? It's working for them. You know, all those of us who have these ministries around the country, they're trying to say that we're beating people and we're tying them up and we're doing all these things that we're not even doing, and they're winning this battle. But I believe there's more of us than them. And if we come together as a church, which I can't see happening, it doesn't mean I don't have faith. I just don't see it. I believe we can win this battle, and we'll see more lives changed. But until we come together as one, we're not going to win this battle. And I'm going to continue get backlash from the gay community and from the body of Christ.

I mean, you've talked about it, though, already. Just that the relationship piece is so, so important. I mean, you talked about the woman at the well. Like, culturally, Jesus should be nowhere near that individual, yet he came and sat down next to her, had a conversation, entered into her life straight up, like, called her out. But wasn't exactly. It wasn't condemnation. It was like a calm. It was a relational conversation that took place. And I think, again, this is just, again, my experience inside the church, you know, growing up, being a pastor, whatever, I've seen that there's a fear of doing it wrong, therefore, we don't do it. Because I think that a lot of Christians would hear what we're saying and be like, yeah, like, Janet, I'm with you. I do want to have relationships with my gay brothers and sisters, my transgender friends, but I don't know how to. Therefore, I'm not going to.

And I think that's torment you. You think about the. The three guys with the talents. The one hit his talent. Yep. That was fear to do something with it. Hey, how's that working for you guys? Those of you who don't want to do anything? You know, I wrote something down. The church can be. Can see this as being harsh, but if you turn a blind eye to something, you become a accomplice to it, you know, And I at the church, they have turned a blind eye, you know, and so a lot of people think if the church doesn't talk about it, then they support it. And that's not the case. It's just that they want people to come to church as they are. And feel that if you're under the power of the Holy Ghost, which I believe, and they're preaching the word of God, people will change. But that's not always the case.

Yeah.

So, I mean, we talk about this a lot on our podcast and our stuff. Most of us didn't grow up in environments where we talked about sex or sexuality or gender. Really, when you talk about it a lot when we grew up. And gosh, I just, like, I think that because of that, we grow up with these false ideas. I remember a friend of ours, Mo Isoman, said that we're going to pay attention to the loudest voice. And when it comes to this topic, the world tends to be louder than the church. And so how would you say we identify where those false ideas are and how do we start to change them?

The world has given us a twisted view of who we are. Of course we need to know our identity is in Christ. And there's no magic switch, you guys, to going from homosexuality to heterosexuality. And matter of fact, I'm not praying and believing that people are going to come out of homosexuality and go into a heterosexual relationship. I want them to become whole, you know, through the power of Jesus Christ and the false ideas. I believe, personally, as, as I'm looking at, your question is because again, I'm going to point the finger back at me or us, we're not talking about it enough. I believe a lot of our young kids and I talk with some millennials and Gen Xers and they said, look, one girl said to me recently, my parents talk about everything. Don't steal, don't lie to me, don't cheat, don't do this, don't. But they never talked about homosexuality in the home. It has to be a topic and it has to be a subject that we talk about. And they can't be afraid to talk about it because millennials and Gen Xers don't feel the way we feel. They think it's okay. Why can't I hang around all gay people? You know? Well, you start putting yourself into a community of some of the same sex couples, you become like them. They wind up forcing you to be like that. That's like, if I go back to drugs, which I've been recovering since 1985, 89, you know, I believe I'll go back into drugs. You are who you spend your time with. And so I, I just think it's important that kids realize and people realize that there is no morning after pill for regret. You know, I know I'm saying All these little things I see Trevor's eyes just get really big when I say good. Yeah, I'm taking that, I'm taking that. You know, and so, and let me say this, whether I answer the question or not, I learned this from Michelle Bachmann. I'm throw out there that a lot of times people ask her a question and she'll answer it the way she wants to answer. So I know the question, I'm just answering it the way I want to answer it. I have a tendency of doing this. You know, what's really important, guys is that our young men have a relationship with, with their dads. I think it's so important that our young women have a relationship with their moms. And I believe our young boys need to have relationship with their mothers as well as young girls should have relationship with their dad. But I must say this, and please don't take it the wrong way. I believe once a young man gets to a certain point in age, that's where dad has to step in and that's where mom doesn't let go. But be mom. But don't cuddle him. Let dad groom him into being the man that I believe God has called him to be. But dads realize too, if your child or if your son is not playing basketball, football, baseball or some type of hockey or sport, don't take it personal. Maybe God has given them the gift of playing piano or ballet. Doesn't mean he's going to go into the life of homosexuality. And that fear sometimes and that rejection will force our kids into something that we are afraid of.

Wow.

That big fear will come upon us. So what I'm saying is sometimes embrace them. You know, my brothers used to run around in my mom's high heels. Do you know I will get an email from a parent and say my 2 year old is running around in my heels. Is he going to be gay? Are you kidding me?

Yeah.

So fear based, how bad fear has gotten? Yeah, you know, embrace it. You know, I mean, have fun. Tell dad to run around in the heels. You know, just to hang out with them and play with them. Say hey, it's okay to run around in the heels. It doesn't mean. And then pick him up and throw him across the couch and let him hit his head. I don't know. The fact remains that it's okay. Yeah, but communication and building communities I think is going to be the most important thing to change and dealing with a lot of our false ideas.

You know, I really, really appreciated something you said earlier in that question, Janet, about, you know, our goal isn't to get someone out of their homosexual relationship and into a heterosexual one. Like, and sometimes that's how we can feel is like, well, you're in something that's wrong or that we disagree with. We want to get you into something that's right. And if that becomes our goal, you know, we're often in a very inappropriate way, trying to manipulate a person or their situation. Exactly what you said. The goal is to help them become who? And if we're in a place of wholeness with God and our relationship with others, you know, then out of that, that healthy, good, renewed heart can come. Right. Relationships or the actions. But if we try to just force someone into a certain set of actions, we're really not helping them move into the kind of experience with God and others that they need to be whole. And I just really like that perspective. I think for all of us, whether. Whether we're worried about a kid and their choices with drugs and alcohol, or we're working with a friend and we're worried about their choices in their marriage. I mean, I think we all have people in our lives we care. Care about that. We see them, maybe do things that we feel are bad or unhealthy for them. And we just, like Trevor said, we just kind of want to fix the situation and make them do the right thing. But that goal isn't nearly as healthy as what you said. The goal of helping someone be whole and maybe helping them process and recognize, why am I choosing certain things? What am I trying to fill up in my life? Because if I find that wholeness in Christ, then the ability to live in a different way is entirely possible.

Yeah, I agree with that and wholeheartedly. I mean, you hit the nail right on the head. But I want to talk about something that I think is really important. A lot of parents think, or even those that are struggling. I received the email from a guy saying, look, I've been struggling all my life. I want God so bad, but I keep going back. Why do I keep going back? I don't know everybody's story, but I know what worked for me. And what worked for me is not looking back the days that I was struggling. And I moved into a Christian home with a family for a year. And when I struggled, I talked about it, and I laid on the floor and I cried. I didn't have Exodus International, which was the largest Xscape organization, to assist me and help me, even though they no longer exist. I only had the family that I live with, and I latched onto that at the age of 40 is when I walked away from that life. And I never look back. And sometimes walk in the way means you're going to have to go through some pain.

Yeah.

You know, God never said upon your salvation that you would not, you know, go through temptations and trials or you wouldn't have pain.

Yeah.

That's why we lean on. On him. But what I want to say to parents, if your child has not come out of the life of homosexuality, it doesn't mean you stop praying. You know, you might not be around to see your child come out of that life. But I believe that God will bring them back to the fold. I don't believe God will reject them. When I was out there, God continuously spoke into my heart. I could sense him all the time. And I used to shake my finger at God and say, stop it. I'm not in a relationship because you leave me alone. And I used to run and run. I want parents to know that God is still knocking at your child's heart continuously. Did I ignore God? Absolutely. But don't give up your faith. Or don't feel like your child's never going to come back. But don't give in. Don't cave. Don't give in to the ultimatums that your child is giving you. First and foremost, Jesus has to be first in your life. If you're willing to take your child before God, that's a problem. God's given you that child, but he has to be first and foremost. And I want to say this, too. We think that, you know, God is not able to reach our child. No, you're not able to reach your child. God is omnipresent. He's all knowing. Yeah, he can be at places that you can't be at. He could be at 15 places that you can't be at. And he's watching over your child. And we're going to have to walk by faith and not by sight. And trust that God will put the right people in the right place at the right time to reach our child. But remember that your child can reject that person. We are free moral agents. God want us to love him and be with him because we want to, not because we have to.

That's good.

Yeah. I appreciate what you're talking there about healing, because I think sometimes we have a very unbiblical idea of how Jesus heals people and sets us free. And we see it in our world of sexual addiction and the people that we're helping. Come, you know, overcome pornography or affairs or various addictions. And what you were talking about with, you know, homosexuality, that we think, well, Jesus will set me free and there'll be this miraculous. Like, I will have no desires. I'll have no thought of ever going back, like, because I'm. I'm healed. And it's like, there may be some stories where that happens, but I think for most people, it's not that in a moment we were healed. It's that God is bringing healing and he is continuing to heal us. And so that might mean yesterday there was a moment he set me free from a pattern or a series of decisions. But today I'm gonna have to meet him again. Because there's going to be a part of my brain and my fallen self that still longs for those things. And that's what I hear from men that are like, what. What's wrong with me? Because I still find that I'm tempted to look at pornography. And I'm like, well, yeah, because you have a brain with hormones and you're. You're a fallen human being that, yes, has been made new. In a spiritual sense, you've been made new in Christ, but in this world, in a physical sense, you are still being made new. And so your brain didn't just automatically reject pornography forever. There's still a part of your brain that is drawn to those things, and that will be an ongoing walking and experiencing that freedom and healing day in and day out. And I think it's the same in what you said, that we have to kind of teach people a new theology of what healing looks like, that, yes, he breaks a story free from a behavior, but we will need to continue to walk in that maybe for weeks or months, because there will be a part of our fallen nature that craves going back. And so what you said about we've got to look forward and trust God every day at a time, and it might be hard, but continue to trust he's going to continue healing us as we trust in Him.

It's called renewing your mind.

Absolutely.

You know, if any man be in Christ, what, He's a new creation. Old things pass away. All. All things come new. All things have to pass away before everything can become new. You know, leaving the life of homosexuality, pornography, or, you know, having sex outside of marriage or drugs or alcohol. That was a process. You know, I want people to know that when I left that life in 1998, I wasn't free right away. You know, I still masturbated for the first five years, you know, I still was having sex with myself at that time.

Right.

You know, I still had a desire to be with women. I've been out of life over 20 years. I have no desire because I didn't look back. And when I started spending time with people, they were all heterosexual couples. They took me under their wing. Yeah, it's a process. For some reason, by the grace of God, I have no desire to go back into that life, and I'm grateful for that. Where my biggest struggle is that I'm not cute enough, where I don't, you know, no man ever wants me because I'm still single. But my singleness has nothing to do with who I am in Christ.

Yeah, exactly.

It doesn't define me.

Right.

I know who I am now. So most people say, oh, you're still single. That means you're still lesbian. It doesn't even bother me when people say that.

Right.

But I still think it's important that we continue to be sensitive to the Holy Ghost, understand who you are, and realize that everything is a process. It's about putting one foot in front of the other and just not looking back and giving up.

I want to mention something, too, though, that you said, is that it wasn't just because you get this email from this guy. It wasn't just that you were stepping away from the behavior or the community that you ran with. You also latched on to a new community. You replaced those behaviors with something else. And that's something that our listeners have heard us say all the time. It's. It's not just stopping the behavior. It's replacing it with healthy behaviors that move you in the direction you want to go. And so I want our listeners to understand that that was a part of your process, and that is the part of process of change. You can't just stop and avoid. You have to also replace.

Exactly. And I've talked and spent time with pastors and mentioned to them, you have gays and lesbian, their churches. They have come out of that life. They are no longer, you know, going out and having a sexual relationship. You have a guy who transitioned who still look like a girl, and he or she wants to volunteer. Let them, even if it's behind the scenes, let them volunteer so they can start building new communities. Another thing I think is important is with our men, when they have a guy who has come out of the gay community and he doesn't walk like us, look like us, and talk like us. Yep, we reject him. Well, how is he going to learn how to be a man. Guys, if you don't take him under his wing, nobody's going to look at you as gay. I look just like a man. When I came out of that life and the women at my church didn't look at that, they looked at my heart. I remember I said to the lady at the house one day, I want to tell you that you look nice, but I'm so afraid you're going to think I'm attracted to you. She said, jen, I never thought about that. The day you walked into that church and you came forward, you were a new creation.

Wow.

And we never looked at you the same. These women literally took me under their wing. I didn't know how to put on makeup. I didn't know how to dress like a woman. I didn't know how to wear heels. That took time, but I wanted what they had, not their husbands. I wanted to look like them. I thought, how did they do that? Well, I didn't realize it took so much for us women to look so darn good after all these years. Hey, guys, I know you get it. It's a lot of work. Work for us. Yeah, you know, the makeup. And so when I asked them to take me to put on makeup or teach me how, I'll never forget the day. And I got to tell this story. They took me to JCPenney's. And, guys, you might not get this, but when you haven't wore makeup ever a day in your life and you go to JCPenney's, they give you these two eyes. Well, they did makeup. I swear, I look so scary. I look so different. It scared me, you know, So I washed it all off, and I thought, I'll never do it. But I went home. They gave me these two eyes with makeup and all this makeup, and I went home and I practice. And I'll never forget the day, you know, I lost my mom in September. So it's really difficult. I mean, in February of this year. But I said to my mom, how did you do it? How did you put makeup on? I was poking myself in the eye with the, you know, brushes and the eyeliner. I didn't get it. But this is the key. I didn't give up. I didn't give up. I kept trying day after day after day until I got it right. I used to shop in the men's department store, and every time I went to Macy's, I went to the men's department because that was familiar to me. As soon as I caught myself, I went to the women's department. But then I would leave crying because I didn't know how to dress like a woman until the day I asked somebody in my church, a pastor's wife, will you take me shopping and will you teach me how to dress like a woman? And they did.

Wow.

And these women came alongside of me to assist me, to help me to get to where I'm at today. I owe it to a lot of women who just love me and to help me with my process. And you know what? It doesn't stop today at the age of 62. I know I don't look it, but I am. But God has been so faithful just to put wonderful people around me, not just throwing out names. I have people like Mom Winans, who's like a spiritual mom to me. Yeah. Cece's mom, who speaks into my life, who encourages me and helps me in any way that I need that. We need people like that around us. We need spiritual people. We need people to come alongside of us until Christ returns. We're always going to need mentors and friends to. To help us walk through this process.

Yeah, that's so true. And any. Any topic, any behavior we're trying to change, like people that have walked ahead of us and can kind of clear the path, is absolutely crucial. And, you know, I know for you, Janet, a big passion of yours is the younger generation. It's young people. And so I'd love to hear what is your message to them? I mean, our kids and teens are growing up in just a very misaligned culture that just has bought into a lot of lies. So how. How do you. What is your message to the young generation as you try to help them understand their sexuality from a biblical point of view?

You know, it's difficult for our young kids because they are growing up in the culture of ear pods and laptops and all this type of technology. You know, Isaiah 34:1 says, or at the end of 1:5, it says, I called you by your name. You are mine. You know, I just want them to know that don't let the world continue to distract you from where God has called you to be, because it will lead you into destruction. And that there are many people out there for you. There's many people that love you. But let's not get it twisted, because a lot of our millennials and our Gen Xers have not left the fold. They have not fallen asleep. They have not given prey to the counterfeit offers. They're there, and they want to do great things. But if you don't understand, you know, homosexuality or what you're dealing with. Ask somebody. Email our ministries. We're here for you. But if you are one that have went out to that life of homosexuality and you want out, contact our ministry. Go to infojanefoyingsministries.com and reach out to us. We'll love you. We might not agree with you, we might not agree with your concept, your concept or your beliefs, but we'll listen to you and we'll be there to help you in any way that we can. And I believe the church is there for you. Let's not throw the church under the bus. We need them. Yeah, the church is, is there to help people. And I believe if we go to them, I believe any church will assist us and help us in the best way that they can. So.

I think a lot of people, Janet, who are listening and I like just full transparency. I have two young boys, a three and a half and a seven month old and sorry, three and a half year old. They're not seven months and three and a half months. Just don't get that twisted. And I, for me, I love that. Trevor, I genuinely, I can tell you because I don't know how I would handle it. There is a fear what if one of my boys is gay? Like I just. Or wants to transition to being a woman. And again, I feel kind of foolish saying it, but I am, I'm fearful of that. And so I'm interested in how you would respond to this. So, you know, equip me okay with this one. If we have a friend or if we have our kid come to us and say I'm gay or I think I'm gay. What does it look like to respond in both grace and truth? What does that look like?

You know, we hear from a lot of parents and they don't respond in the right the way I think they should respond. But if, when and understand culture in the black culture, it's different than in the white culture and the Hispanic. All my white friends, parents are like going off the rails, you know, taking them out of the wheels, throwing them in counseling. I mean literally, they'll pay whatever we can, we will pay for you to get better, you know, or become whole. You can't pay for somebody come whole, become whole. They have to want to become whole. For me, my mother loved me where I was. Doesn't mean that she did it right. She allowed me to bring my girlfriend in the house. And I do not recommend that to anybody. I do not. But that's the way she chose. And I came out of it myself. Many parents are afraid that their child is going to live the life of homosexuality. What I can say to parents is that at an early age, do everything you can to let your child know one how much you love them. Father, spend time with your child. Go out and do boy things that are important. And if he doesn't want to do some of the things that you want him to do, find out what his passion is, or moms, dads, find out what her passion is. Just because they, as I said earlier, they don't play basketball or whatever doesn't mean that they're going to go into the life of homosexuality. But I do believe that Satan is out for our kids. We have to realize that Satan is alive and well and he's not going anywhere. But his time is near and he will do anything he can to put thoughts and desires in our head and in our hearts. And I believe that if you train up your child doesn't mean he or she won't depart from you. But I believe our faith has to rely not in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. And we're going to have to trust him because we don't know the future, but we do know who holds the key to the future. And I believe if our kids walk away from their faith and do drugs or alcohol, whatever it may be, I believe they'll come home. They always know where home is. And so let's trust God with our kids. Let's keep praying over our kids, but keep directing our kids. But don't walk in so much fear that you isolate them and you insulate them so they don't get out and be a part of the community. Because how else will they learn how to live? How else can they make mistakes and you be there for them to be able to help them correct that mistake State. And I think a lot of parents are isolating their kids so they don't go out into the world. And then when they do go out, they trip and fall and their parents aren't there to help them or help guide them in the way that they should go.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah. I think of one of our authors, Rodney Wright, in his book how to talk with your kids about sex. One of his major chapters at the end is just to say, never turn away, no matter what your kid is going through, no matter what their issue is. Just like our heavenly father never turns away from us. He looks at us, we're his child. If we've come to him by faith. That in the same way, if we have a son or daughter, they are always that to us, and we never turn away, even if we don't understand what they're going through. We don't know. Maybe we don't know how to respond. But if our starting point is just like you said, I just. I don't turn away. I just keep loving and waiting and praying God's going to use even that. So I really appreciate your encouragement there, Janet. We.

It doesn't mean we accept their ultimatum, though, right? A lot of kids are going to give you ultimatum, but you love your child. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah. So we've talked a lot about, you know, challenges that the churches face in this area or silence or not knowing how to talk about it. Let's. Let's look at the positive side of this, because I think the church does and can have a really, really powerful message and a powerful voice in this area. So what would you encourage churches or what do you feel churches could do to speak into this whole area with. With greater impact, to really help people discover the goodness of God in their lives?

I think it's important to let people know, even from the pulpit, that if you're struggling with drugs or alcohol or homosexuality or transgender, that we're here for you. Hey, we might not have all the answers. We're not God, and we're not going to try to play God, Junior. But we'll do our best to assist in any way that we can and just be transparent. As I try to be transparent. Look, I can't help everybody. And there's people that I have helped who are still out there. But you know what? They know. They can call Janet Boinks Ministries, and they know I'm going to love them. They know I'm going to be there for them. And one day, we're going to stand before God. He's going to say, you see all these people behind you because you didn't give up, because you love them. Look where they are now. You might not have seen them come to know me as their Lord, God and Savior, but they're here because you did your part. I think as a church, we need to be open. You know, we need to portray God's love. The church is for those that are broken. You know, the church is. Is for those who need a doctor. Pastors hold a big key to seeing lives changed through the power of Jesus Christ. I believe that if we continue to be transparent and be open as a church, get books in your bookstore, even if it's not my book, I don't care. Just get somebody book in the bookstore to talk about this issue. Right. Even if you don't want to talk about, at least let people know that there's books here. Put it right there on the front counter, you know, so people can pick it up. Get educated so people can take one.

Right.

You know, that's what it is all about, being educated and being equipped. There's a lot of parents and pastors that will hear this. I'll walk away from it. You know, I spoke at Andrew Wommack's conference. He's a good friend of mine, and I think there was like over 2000 pastors there. It was his leadership conference. Do you know, I walked away. I sold all my books. But there's a lot of people that didn't come to me. But there was tons of pastors who came to me three years later whose child is now living a life of homosexuality, who never even picked up the book, never even ordered a book. You hit the nail on the head. Get equipped.

Yeah.

Regardless if your child or loved one is struggling with homosexuality because you don't know, it could be a relative who's in the closet who hasn't come out.

Yeah.

And I think that's part of the problem, is that we're not equipped, we're not knowledgeable.

I keep going back to, you know, like, my experience is that I tend to gravitate toward leaders and people specifically inside the church who have humility, who are willing to admit, I don't know, I don't have the answers, but you know what? Let's go figure it out. And I think that there is this. And this was my experience, even as when I was a pastor, I felt like that was my job, was to. To have the answers, was to be the professional Christian. And I know that we're taught not to be those things. But you still feel that way inside. Like, I'm supposed to shepherd you to Jesus. Like, I sure don't feel like I'm doing it, but I need to pretend like I look like it. And I think that's something that I would encourage anybody inside the church, and specifically pastors and leaders in the church, don't be afraid to say, I don't know. Those words can be so powerful because you're not trying to claim moral authority where you don't have it. And you're also just modeling humility to this person. You talked about vulnerability, like that's a vulnerable place to be as a pastor. But then Also, don't stop there. Like, then you also say, okay, hold my hand. Let's go do this. Like, let's figure out. Let's read. Let's do what you guys are talking about the education and equipping.

I like what you said, Trevor, because, you know, even though I'm calling out names, but I want to say this because I've learned this from a lot of these. Pastor Mac Hammond said to us at one time, he's in Minnesota, spiritual dad. Love that guy. Love him. And Lynn Ham. And he said that the reason why he bring different pastors into the church is because God has called him to be a pastor, but he's not evangelist. He's not a teacher. He might not be this. But there's other pastors out there who he can bring into the church who can teach us things that he can't teach us. So, yeah, I like that. It's important.

Okay, so coming out, from what I can tell, July 2021. In July, you have a new book coming out called God and the LGBT Community, A Compassionate Guide for Parents, Families, and Churches. Let me just say this. Just the title.

I didn't do that.

No, you didn't. We did our research, believe it or not. But just the title. The title is the only reason you need to buy it like that. I mean, I'm sure it's going to be amazing, but that title is just. It's so good. So what can readers expect? Janet?

That's funny, because I just printed out that, and I don't know where I put it. But let me say this about the book. This book, God and Sexuality, it's going to be the same book. We changed the COVID The. The publisher came to Harrison House. They changed the COVID We added another endorsement, which Dr. Michael Brown wrote the first forward. I'm sorry. And then Andrew Wommack wrote the forward, and then James Robeson wrote an endorsement, but we changed the COVID changed the title and the subtitle, and we added a study guide. So God and Sexuality doesn't have the study guide, but they really enjoyed the book so much and thought it was loving, caring, and helpful. They just felt like it didn't get the service that it should have gotten or the attention. So they're redoing it, and we added the study guide. I'm so excited. We wrote that book to help families, pastors, ministry leaders have a better understanding. How do we deal with that issue? Okay, you're saying my child is going to have a civil union. The world calls it marriage. How do we respond? Do we go? Do we send a gift? How do we send a letter? How do we pray for our kids? What prayers do we pray? You know, what if they transition? You know, what do I mean by that? Have gender reassignment surgery. You know, a lot of women just strap down their breasts. A lot of them don't have gender reassignment surgery, you might think, but then they start taking hormones. How do we respond? Do we allow their same sex partner to come over to the house? No. I'm going to say it right up front. Judge me if you want. Throw a stone at me. You can send me emails. I'll accept that. I don't support it. And I have a reason why I don't support it. Because we have grandkids who are watching. What if they walked out of the room and they started kissing? Then you're telling your kids, oh, you're going to have a homosexual relationship and a heterosexual relationship. No, God only made us. Heterosexual marriage between a man and a woman. So I'm excited to get that book back out. Also, my conference is in June of next year. We canceled it this year. Dr. Michael Brown will be speaking. I'm so excited to have him. I'll be speaking. David Pickup, a psychotherapist. He'll be there. Jonathan Alexander, he'll be there. He's an attorney for Matt Staver, Liberty Council. So I'm excited about that. Cool.

Yeah. Well, we're excited for people to grab that book, whether they get it under the title God and Sexuality or the new title God in the LGBT Community. I think for all of us, that's the kind of information we need just to know how do I respond with love, compassion, truth. And do that in a way that honors Christ and creates relationship, as we've talked about a lot in this podcast, creates relationship with the person that we care about. So. So, Janet, we're so excited to have had you today and just talk through these challenging topics. Are there any last words, thoughts, or encouragements you'd like to share with our listeners today?

You know, I think I've said it all. I just think that we just have to understand that, you know, homosexuality is here, it's here to stay. And I think the more we talk about it and the more we hear people's stories, the more that that we'll believe is possible for our child or our loved one.

Yeah, yeah. Appreciate that.

Yeah. And I just. For our listeners understanding, like, what we've talked about, the idea of staying silent is extremely loud. That it really is. People can hear your silence from miles away. And so speak about this. Janet, you talked about speaking courageously about what you believe to be true, but also doing it in relationship. We're not trying to change people. We're trying to be in relationship with people and allow Jesus to change them through that relationship throughout their lives. And so if you have, if you are someone who is, has this unwanted attraction or behavior or knows someone in the gay community or a transgender community and you just want more resources, we suggest you go to Janet Boynes ministry and you check all of her stuff out. We'll have all, all the stuff in the show notes. Janet, it was super fun. You're great. Love having you on the podcast. Thanks. Just thank you genuinely from us. Thank you for what you're doing. We really appreciate it.

Thanks, Nick. Thanks, Trevor.

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