188 - Same-Sex Attraction w/ John Fort

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues.

What is up?

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 188 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stemball.

Waddily acha waddly acha doodly do doodly do. What, is this ringing any bells for you? Waddle the acha waddle the acha doodly doo.

I mean the like doodly doo Tempo and rhythm.

Sure thing. Anyway, it's a song that we used to do, like in grade school choir. I thought every kid had to learn it in grade school choir. Oh, just learning rhythm and tempo and flashback to my 1980s rural Wyoming childhood.

There you go.

We didn't have a choir when I was there. Okay, so that explains a lot. And I grew up here. Who knows what that means here in Portland? Okay. So today we sat down with John Fort, the director of training for Be Broken Ministries. He's on the executive team, also with the Sexual Integrity Leadership Summit. And he also authored a book, honest A new perspective on talking to your kids about sex. And we talked to John about a part of his story that we heard recently at a pastor's training that we were at. And John has as a part of his story, same sex attraction.

Yeah, I think today just such a valuable conversation that frankly, we're not having enough. This is an area that can just stay in the recesses and the shadows. And people that are struggling with something feel like, well, that's not really what this group is about. It's about the sex addiction or pornography. And so I don't bring up pieces of my story that are very, very valid. And we haven't had many good conversations to make sense of it. And so that's what I hope today helps listeners do, is just process a part of life that's actually far more common than most of us realize. It's not just a tiny percent of people. I'd say, as we've talked about, like half the people in groups have some kind of same sex story, whether that's an attraction issue, something done to them as a kid, something done by them as a kid. And that's kind of the purpose of my using an intro from my childhood to say a lot of this is looking back at our childhood and saying, what did my brain learn about the body, about sex, about relationships at a very young age when maybe I wasn't even ready to process it? Because that's what you're going to hear from John is like, I was learning patterns before I even knew what I was learning. And for so many people battling stuff today, that's what we have to be willing to talk about. But when we can talk about it in a safe and healthy environment and like the conversation we had today, I think there's light that can be shined into those places that just really can make a difference in how we understand our stories.

Yeah, totally. Before we get to this very needed episode, a few things. First, subscribe to the podcast. If you're not, just do it. You can find us on all the major platforms. And now it's including Audible, which any Audible subscriber like myself is super excited about. So if you can also give us a review on any of those platforms, it helps people see. The podcast means a lot to us. Also, follow us on social Media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagramuredesirepdmi, we also are now putting the full episodes on YouTube of these podcasts. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. And then lastly, we want to just keep pushing this groups conference March 5th and 6th. The virtual Pure Desire Groups conference is coming.

Yeah, less than a month away. And like my favorite singer Sierra says it's time to level up. Is that a Sierra song? I think it is. I'm joking. I've never honestly listened to a song. I only know Sierra because she married Russell Wilson. But that's a whole nother story. Look at you. So culturally in the know because of football. Yes, that's about the extent of my cultural knowledge. It's mostly about the NFL. Uh, no, but that in all joking aside, we want people to feel like there's a place they can come to have deeper insight into the group experience, how to have be a better group member, a better group leader. And there is so much that we can gain by just having people who've walked down that road say, hey, here's, here's what's going on in your story. And so if, if you're in your first group or your tenth group, I think the groups conference will really just put some wind in your sails and help you feel like you're, you're going to another level in your recovery journey.

Level up. Okay. Also with this, it's really important that you hear me. This is a completely virtual event going to be online. However, even though I just said completely virtual, there are 40 spots available for a small in person audience for this and we are giving away free ticket. So if you go to PureDesire.org podsurvey if you fill out that listener survey, we're going to pick two winners for free admissions to our groups conference in March. We are not going to cover your travel over here, but, but, but we will cover your ticket. Please come. That would be awesome. So if you can go to PureDesire.org podsurvey you can enter the drawing. We will pick the drawing February 19th. Okay, here's our conversation with John Fort on same Sex Attraction. John Fort, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast.

Good to be here.

Some people don't know that was round two of our intro. Sometimes that happens. So we've been able to partner with you and Be Broken Ministries on a couple of projects in the past coup one that was last year. Now that we're in 2021, it was in that crazy year that will always be 2020. We did a free training for pastors and I had not heard your story before and so I got to hear some elements of it and one of them being same sex attraction. And that for me is one of those areas that I've had guys in groups who have struggled with it, felt shame over it, doesn't know what to do with it. And I've even got a same sex experience in my story. And so this is a topic I think we've wanted to talk about for a long time on the podcast. Being able to hear some of your story really helped. Like, hey, okay, maybe we should have John on to help us kind of flesh this out from your experience. So we just appreciate you being here.

Yeah.

Well, thanks for having me come.

Yeah.

So for some of our listeners who maybe don't know about you or Be Broken Ministries, we just fill them in a little bit. What's your background and story?

Sure. An important part of my story to me anyway, is that when I was really young, my dad worked two jobs and so he wasn't around very much. And in addition to that, we lived on a farm that was far away from almost everybody except for one person lived next door to us. But other than that, it was, we were pretty remote. So I didn't have a lot of attention from peers from anybody. And my mother was wrapped up with younger siblings of mine, and I was kind of just kicked out the door and left to fend for myself. That left me really wanting a lot of affirmation and that kind of thing. And I had a neighbor who was, when I was around 5, neighbor who was 12, 13, somewhere in there, began sexually abusing me. Now, I didn't think of it as abuse or anything like that it felt like attention to me and that when I was around seven, we moved into the city and another teenager who was at the same age as that one was kind of took up where that one left off. And it must have been happening a lot because the neighborhood I went, grew up in there was a lot of kind of sexual experimentation between boys and some between boys and girls. It just seemed to be everywhere.

Yeah.

And that may just been the location, whatever. I'm not sure what it was. So my background was a lot of that kind of thing going on. Starting real young and kind of continued all the way through high school and even into college.

Yeah. So talk a little bit about Be Broken Ministries. What. What do you guys do there?

So Be Broken Ministries, ministers to men, women and families affected by sexual brokenness, leading them to wholeness in Christ and is our focus. And also training trainers and leaders and that kind of thing. That's our overall arching thing, similar to the same kind of things you do. We don't do focus as much on support groups, which is kind of your niche that we do. We have other services and that kind of thing. And I'm the director of training, so my job is to oversee online and written training materials and that kind of thing.

Great.

That's awesome.

Yeah. John, we're excited to have you be sharing some of your story. And I know you've been open about this with groups and willing to talk. And I think it's so important because it is an area of human sexuality that still can be so taboo for so many people that it's like it's becoming safer to talk about porn struggles or even addiction. But you start to bring up that same sex issue. And I think people just feel this like, cavern of. I just. I can't bring it up. And so many people, to echo what you said at the beginning, Trevor, this has been a part of their story in some way. Maybe it was something that happened to them, something as kids, and we kind of look back and go, that was weird. I don't get it. And we never talk about it, and so it just stays in those shadows. But I. I think we find it has a deeper impact in people's lives than we realize. And so that's kind of the point of today is. Is to just have the conversation and hopefully help listeners have some of that conversation in their own life that maybe haven't come to a point of integrating what happened or what they experienced. And so to. To go just a little more into your story when, you know, you talk about A couple of relationships where you were being abused. But I, I know that then began to translate into same sex attraction in your life. So as you're, you know, growing up as a kid, when do you start to realize that you're having like same sex desires? And, and what was that realization like for you? Like, was it a shameful thing or was it just a sense of like, well, I guess this is something I'm going to deal with? Or how do you remember processing that, you know, maybe as a kid and into your teenage years?

So to back up, first, I always imagined that I would get married and have kids when I envisioned my future.

Which by the way, you, you are married and you have kids. Don't know. John.

Yes.

And so I never imagined myself in a same sex relationship or anything like that. But when I was around 13 or 14, so what happened was around 11, there were other boys that we were doing kind of same sex experimentation they call it these days, which because it.

Is, because you are, you're just kind of curious and exploring and, and I.

Didn'T, I didn't even know what sex was when that was happening. Bear in mind I didn't understand that it wasn't sexual in the sense that we think sexual is. But around age 11, they all stopped wanting to do that. We're not doing that anymore. It doesn't feel right. I remember one of my friends saying, it doesn't feel right. And I began to kind of know what he meant because you begin to feel this, it's different. There's something, I didn't know the words to use, but it felt sexual. There was something there. But I very much wanted to keep doing those things and ended up finding a few other, just not nearly as many, but a few boys that would do those kind of things with me. And I remember at 13 or 14 realizing it's like, wait a minute, I don't feel this way towards girls and I'm supposed to. And I never fantasized about anything to do with girls and I never. And so I began that, that began to, to kind of scare me. And my response was just to not think about it. I just wouldn't let myself think about it. I remember also in youth group they would talk a lot about they're trying to keep kids from having sex. So they would kind of talk about that. But they didn't ever mention boys having sex together. So I, I didn't consider it sex. I just said, well, this is, this doesn't really count. And that's kind of my Rationalization for why this is okay, this doesn't really count. And every once in a while when I would allow myself to slow down enough and think, I would think what if this makes me to where I can't be attracted to girls? But I would instantly put that thought out of my head because it was too scary. And so that's kind of the denial I was in at that time.

Yeah. You know, I think what you're bringing up, John, is so important because we hear it all the time. And I mean some of this in my story too where our childhood sexual development, we were just simply never taught or trained into health or what did it look like to mature, to go through puberty. And so we figure things out on our own and often with a lack of information or with bad information that leads us down pathways. We maybe didn't even mean to choose it just we're figuring it out on our own and we're 10, 11, 12. And so choices get made that, that can affect our brains and our futures. But. But with a lack of training or someone in our lives to say hey, here's what this means and here's what's going on and how can I help? And it just speaks to, you know what you said to me earlier today that be broken is focusing on is the value and need of parents to be involved in their kids lives and usually at an earlier age than we expect because so many of us didn't have that. Our parents just didn't bring these things up. And so we figured it out. Right.

So yeah, so one I just wanted. This came to my mind. There was a family we were working with last year and with this boy who'd gotten into pornography and we kind of helped that conversation between parents talk. And one of the things he mentioned was because today it's very different. So he heard other kids talking about some website and so he went and looked at it because his parents had not yet thought to put filters on anything and was exposed to all kinds of porn. Well, when we helped that conversation go, one of the things he mentioned was there were also images of men on there and he kind of got attracted that and like what does that mean? You know. And so the thing is, is like when our sexuality is emerging we're attracted to anything and it doesn't mean we're going to be gay or same sex attract. It doesn't mean that at all.

And the way our brain works and.

That'S why I feel like a lot of cultures in the past had taboos against that Kind of stuff. Because if you just leave that to run its course, which is what happened to me as a kid, you will become attracted to your own sex and you'll keep reinforcing that. And so for kids, it's like, that's why we don't want you running around looking at porn, because who knows what you'll get attracted to in that case, Right?

Yeah, yeah. We kind of assume that the brain is, like, wired. And this is, I think, a falsehood that's being perpetuated in our culture a lot that, well, the brain is wired one way or another. And so you're just acting out what your brain is wired for when the truth. And this isn't like a Christian principle, this is like a brain science principle that in a lot of ways with your sexuality, your brain is kind of a blank slate. And whatever you put on the slate, the brain learns from and goes, oh, okay, well, we want more of that and we grow in that direction. Which is exactly what I hear you talking about in your experience.

That was definitely true in my case.

Yeah. I just, I'll say this, like, to parents, I think it's important to realize that these conversations are happening right now, whether it's in your house or not. You know, I lean a lot on my experience as a youth pastor in the past that, I mean, this was a topic all the time. Like, this was something that got talked about all the time. And honestly, we're at a day and age where in every movie and show and song and it's just, it's a normal part of life in so many cultures. And so I feel like I would just echo the importance of that. And I'll be honest, as a parent of two young boys, like, I know that conversations about this are coming. I'm terrified about it, but I know that they're coming. And so definitely lean into that as a parent with your kids. John, we know that men and women, and I know some people personally who married heterosexual marriage but still have same sex attraction and struggle with maybe even homosexuality. Am I, am I, am I not all of that? What would your encouragement, and this is a broad question, what would your encouragement to them be? I mean, what did your story look like in that?

Well, the other part of me is I went on to study biology and taught biology for nine years. And so genetics and biology and all that kind of stuff were probably a background. My mom was in medicine. My dad studied medicine before he decided to go into a job. So, like, all of that stuff, I was very sciencey. Kind of kid. And so I knew that. I kind of knew even that the reason I was attracted to other boys was because of all this stuff that happened to me. I sort of was aware of that. And so I knew that my body would learn to be attracted to women if I would just give it a chance or make it move in that direction. And I know that sounds. I know I'm not typical in that way, but. But I'm very analytical kind of person. And so that. That it's very fortunate in my case. So even before all the science was there to demonstrate that that is in fact how we work, I kind of moved in that direction.

Was this before marriage?

Yeah. Yeah. And so when I got married, I was disappointed in how much work it took to train myself to respond. But the interesting thing was is that over time I became attracted to women. But not just women, but a certain kind of women. We all have a sexual template. So here's an interesting thing, and I hope this is not too much detail. Go for it. But when I was. Before I got married, I was attracted to very slender people, right? But when probably after, I don't know, 10 years of marriage or so, my wife was no longer slender.

Right.

And but what's interesting, because that is who I was having sex with, I became attracted to. I was still attracted to slender men, but I was also attracted to slightly heavy women. I know that sounds really weird, but that was became is like our body grows its sexual template. This is neuroscience, neuroplasticity. I know you guys talk about that a lot. I didn't know that word yet, but I could see it happening, you know what I'm saying? And fortunately I had a really good therapist who seemed to understand the basics of it before people were talking about it. That really kind of helped me understand that area. And so I by putting energy into focusing on my wife and not just sexual things, but my therapist did a lot of stuff of teaching us to have non sexual intimacy. And how do you become feeling intimate to a person in a non. What does that even mean? I didn't even know like non sexual intimacy. What are you even talking about? You know, and so, but that really helped us a lot was to him. Him to focus on that kind of thing with. With us. That's one of the things is if you're struggling with same sex attraction, you need really, really wise guidance because there's some really bad advice out there from Christian sources that doesn't help at all. I fortunately had a therapist who had his PsyD who had a ton of training. You know, this wasn't just some guy who got a counseling degree.

Right.

And that made a gigantic difference to kind of help me go through this thing. So you heard the terminology, feed the right wolf. Well, I mean, you can think of sexual attraction that way. There's different things that we could be sexually attracted to. You put your energy into where you want to go. If you keep looking at gay porn, if you keep fantasizing about men or all that kind of stuff, that's going to grow. So there's a little bit of discipline in this. It's like, do I want my marriage to thrive or not? And let's step back from same sex attraction. If you are a heterosexual male, you will still be attracted to women who aren't your wife. In my view, when I'm talking to other same sex directed guys, you're not different, you are the same. All of us, if we allow ourselves to focus on it, will become sexually attracted to all kinds of people who are not our spouse. The answer isn't to divorce your spouse. You know what I'm saying? Because whoever you chase, the same thing's going to happen there.

Yeah, yeah, right.

The answer is whether it's same sex attraction or not is you keep investing in that. I remember we had one year I was married for this was about five or six years after I entered therapy and all this other kind of stuff. And I found myself not feeling sexually attracted to my wife. And it scared me to death, sure. But I just kept. Fortunately, I was still seeing a therapist every once in a while. And so, man, it just sure helps have other people to talk about this stuff instead of just going off on your own on this. And I kept putting into it and it lasted about a year, but then my attraction to her came back with a vengeance and I was more attracted than ever. And so that's another piece of this. Here's a. I'm sorry to kind of go off, but just last summer a guy, a friend of mine who used to be in a group called me and he was freaking out because he said, I don't feel attracted to my wife right now. And I just kind of smiled and said, yeah, that's. That's a normal thing that we. I don't know if. I have no idea. If everybody goes through it.

It's a normal thing people do.

Yeah, yeah. And I said, he was, what do I do? I said, you just keep spending time with her, investing in her, and it'll. If you keep doing that and put her First. Yeah, it'll come back, I think. And so you guys may have more experience in that kind of area than I do.

Well, no, I mean, in a case like that, what we can realize is we're really being driven by some cultural ideals of like, what does it mean to be married or in love or have sex? And I think we've bought into some very Hollywoodized versions of marriage and sex. It's like, I don't know that that's true about humans, that for a lifetime we will always feel like these lightning bolts and energy towards, wow, this one spouse. And if it's gone, people do. We can panic, like, what's wrong? And that's why I'm so glad we're having this conversation today, because I think a lot of the answers, and I don't mean like one answer, but just finding answers is rooted in conversation. It's rooted in, well, let's bring this out into the open. And so going back to like, those same sex questions, I think for a lot of people that are in a marriage and they're feeling like, boy, am I maybe gay, or I'm attracted to people the same gender, should I go pursue that? It's because they're not able to recognize I maybe have options here. There's maybe things that are leading to that that I've never thought about. There's maybe things I could be doing that would help me move in a different direction. And so if, if we just stay stuck in that silence and isolation. The other thing that I really believe happens is there is attraction to taboo things for all of us. There's kind of a human nature of if, if it's off limits or somehow mysterious. There's a part of our brain made for novelty that'll kind of go, oh, maybe I should think about that more and more. And so if you're able to just have the conversations with, like you said, John, people that care, people that have some understanding, people that are wise, just say, man, I'm feeling attraction to people the same gender, and yet I'm married. What's going on? And someone talks you through it instead of having it stuck in this taboo nature place, it now becomes like, oh, some of this is maybe part of my past. Some of this is part of what I'm choosing to engage in. Some of it's the taboo nature of it that is attractive. So when we can get that out on the table, the energy behind it, I think, just changes and we can start to look at what is a better decision or wiser decisions. Look like.

And I. I mean, and I. I've shared this on the podcast before, that the same sex experience I had when I was 11 or 12 years old was the one thing I was taking in my grave. Even when I stepped into recovery. I'm like, no one is gonna know about this. Like, not my wife, not my kids, not my anybody. Not even a therapist. If I hire one and pay them, I'm not gonna tell them. And I remember when we were going through at the time, the Conquer series was what we were starting with. And I remember our group decided to do a full disclosure. Every week. One guy would do their full disclosure, or the most up to date full disclosure they could create. And I wrote that out. And I was so scared. I mean, I was holding the piece of paper and I was shaking. And I remember I just shared. And I was just like, all right, I just gotta do this. And I shared it. And immediately, I mean, I just. I felt this, like, release. Like, okay, it's out there. And two guys looked at me and said, me too. And I still can feel it right now. Just like I felt like. And you've made fun of me for this imagery before, but I felt like cold water just like went all the way down. Like, my head, my back, my shoulders. I just felt refreshment that it was this. I'm not alone. Like, this is not something that just I. Because for years, I felt like it was just me. I was the only one who had struggled with that. And so I love what you're saying because there's that release of shame for so many people and not. Not normalizing the behavior, but you start to realize you're not alone.

To go on the record, I would say I don't think I've ever made fun of you for that illustration. There are many others I have, but that one in particular, it was like.

Three episodes, four episodes ago. You're like, that sounds awful.

Okay. I think it was a different context. But anyway, John, another part of this, you know, we might be the spouse in the situation where in the course of a marriage, it comes out or something is there's an honest moment where spouse confesses, hey, I'm feeling attracted to people of the same gender. If we're the spouse in that situation, what kind of response can we have and what does it look like to perhaps try to help our spouse in this area?

Yeah, I think today a lot of spouses would be terrified by that. They're thinking, you're about to tell me you're going to leave me For a man or whatever or a woman, as the case may be. And that's usually not what. They're just trying to find safe people to talk about this usually, if that makes sense. Yeah. And so, but it can be real threatening. But I think to the, for the spouse to understand this has nothing to do with you at all. It's not because you're not good enough. You know, they're saying, well, I've tried this out and I'd rather go back to my own gender. That's not what this is about. Yeah, it's about building relationships, not sex. Like I mentioned, what grew, my wife and I together was focusing on the non sexual kinds of intimacy. And some don't fall into the trap of like, well, I just got to have better sex. Like not. It's not going to have. It has nothing to do with this whatsoever. To me that seems like the best thing I can think of that really. And maybe you need some help with that with some, some therapy or whatever. But, but the, basically as you build that piece of it and listen, I think would be a lot instead of, instead of getting defensive, but just try to listen if you can.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's, you know, it stresses the importance of having trusted community around you. Because if your spouse comes to you and says, you know, I'm attracted to the same gender and maybe there's a little bit of a staggered disclosure that's involved with that maybe with some unwanted behavior. I think that's what's important about having people in your life that you can be honest with. Like having, you know, if it's, if it's a man that you have other men in your life that you can go talk to about that or a woman is the same thing. Creating that community in that space where it's not just something you have to hold and keep secret and there's no one you can share this with. There's gotta be that for you because that's, that's a heavy burden that could be placed on your shoulders. Right.

Like if you, if a spouse is told that one of the things they might think of is this sounds like this is something you need to talk with other people about. You know, encourage them to do that because like you said, they may be too afraid.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And I think like in any situation the awareness of I can't fix someone else. And so, you know, they tell me now if I go into fix it mode and I'm going to somehow get this out and be like, that's maybe just going to create a situation where you're pushing them further away. I think we want to maintain that receptive heart to someone to, you know, thank them for their honesty, ask, you know, how we could help or support them. What steps could we help encourage them to take? Like, if there is a desire from your spouse for partnership in this, say, I'm, I'm telling you because I want to be honest and realize there's something I'm struggling with that you don't know, that they're inviting you in in a good way, and see that rather than getting terrified and scared, which also is, I think, normal. But to see, okay, this is healthy. And so there may be listeners, too, that have had an opposite situation where just what you're saying, John, was what happened, that it only came out when it was at the extreme of, like, and I'm leaving and I'm done with this marriage. And, and that's a whole different ballgame where we're now talking recovery for the spouse, not, you know, what do you do in that case? It's really more, how do you get healthy? Because they've gone off and made these choices. But I, I think if it's happening early in the story or someone's just say, I, I want to have a good marriage with you, but here's something I'm stuck in. How could you stay open to. Just say, I'm here to help and I love you and thanks for your honesty.

Yeah. So, John, from your experience, and it sounds like, you know, in youth group, there was growing up in and around the church, what do you think that the church gets right and gets wrong when it comes to conversations or responses to same sex attraction or even the LGBTQ community in general? What do you think the church gets right and what do you think the church gets wrong?

What they get right is their. At least a lot more than when I was a kid, they're beginning to actually talk about it.

Yeah.

It's not. It's not. You're allowed to discuss this now, which maybe you weren't in some churches before. I think my church that I grew up in, they would have wanted to talk about. They just didn't know how.

Yeah.

If that makes sense. Yep. The, the thing as far as what we do wrong, I think is, and this is coming because I work with a lot of men who have same sex attraction, too, and a lot of them aren't married. And that's a different situation, different set of pressures. But what I'm hearing from them is that they get the impression from the church that the church has an agenda and the agenda is to fix them. And God is the one who fixes with the help of good therapists. I keep mentioning therapy a lot, but I'm sorry, do you want to give.

The name of your therapist for our listeners?

No, that's okay. But I mean we all need therapy. I'm just kind of. I grew up, my dad was a very like, ah, only wimps need therapy. Like I've been like, I don't know, 15 years of therapy, I think in my life, so.

And you're better for it.

It's done nothing but good.

Yeah, absolutely.

But that's not the church's job. The church's job is to be their friend. And so I think we have to become clean about what is our agenda. Of course we want to help people and maybe we have ideas and things like that, but really what they need is a person. Now part of being a friend may be to say I think maybe you need some counseling and maybe help them find a good counselor. I've done that and yeah, but I'm not a trained counselor. And so even though I have a ton of experiences, I'm the director of training, I know a ton about this. I'm going to be careful about what I try to do. And then the church. To the church, you don't anybody knows how to be a friend. So spend time with people. I feel like some people in the church are afraid of like if a person says they say have same sex attraction, they're like, I don't know what to. You know, it's like the church I go to actually gotten pretty open about this and the pastor told me one time there's a whole lot of guys in here with same sex attractions. Actually statistically with the number of a church number of guys sounds about right to me. And they're married kind of thing. Let's just make this not so hard, not so bad to talk about. We don't have enough physical affection. I lived in Brazil for a couple of years and. And they're even. I was freaked out by how physically affectionate guys are towards each other. It was a little like we sexualized everything.

Like to hug. I've been to Brazil. They are huggers.

Yeah. And so among other things. So here's what I needed was male affection the right way.

Yeah.

Okay.

Like intimacy.

Yeah. Intimacy. Yeah. The healthy intimacy and even talking. And it's like, here's what, if you look at the Bible, there's just, it's Just full of men being way more intimate than we're comfortable with. There are parts in the Bible that make us feel awkward. Right. So obviously our culture has gotten off and our church has been wildly affected by that. I don't know. So for me, I need to be more affectionate with guys, but because I grew up with a dad who was not that way, it also feels extremely awkward at the same time. So I'm a person that it's something that I need is. Feels extraordinarily awkward to me. And so that's the kind of. It. I'm not saying it's easy to solve, but that's one of the issues. And then people being more open with their own brokenness. Like, the people who are same sex attracted need to not be the only ones in the church that are being open about what they're dealing with.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

So, yeah, when I think of where the church is maybe missing the mark, that I sure hope changes. I feel like when we start talking about same sex issues or anything under the LGBTQ umbrella, it's like it becomes a whole different topic. Like, over here, we can talk about the Bible and sin and forgiveness and. But then it's like, whoa, same sex. Well, that's kind of a. We just treat it so differently. And I think it even communicates to the person struggling. Well, I don't want to bring this up because I don't want to end up in that different category. I want to stay over here with the rest. And what I hear you saying, John, about we all need to be open about brokenness. I think that's where a church needs to expand its view of brokenness and love and forgiveness. To say we're all in the same boat here. Some maybe have eating issues, some maybe have spending issues, some have pride issues, some have same sex issues, some have porn. These aren't different boats that we have to bring Jesus to a different place for that group. It's like we are all in the same boat together of people that need to understand who God made us to be, his radical love for us. And that is true whether my issue is lying or same sex desires. Like, we're in the same boat. And I think when the church can communicate that message, people will have the freedom to be at church and say, yeah, I'm. I don't know if I'm gay or straight or I've got. I'm all messed up sexually, but I know that I'm loved, that Jesus loves me. And my only hope of Finding some kind of fulfilling life is going to come from me leaning into God and into his community rather than feeling like I have to avoid it because I'm in that other category over there.

Yeah, yeah. I think a couple things are coming to mind. We talk about here a lot, grace and competency. The ability to, as you were saying, be a friend, be gracious, be understanding. And I think, I think we confuse understanding. Like being understanding doesn't actually mean you understand. You can be understanding towards someone who has same sex attraction even though you don't, you can still express understanding with them, but then competency too. That idea of, you know, educate yourself on what. And again, this isn't like a how to fix somebody, but educate yourself with who are the people or the resources or organizations that help address this topic, that create resources and help people think through what the process may look like. Our listeners are probably, I would guess that there are some who this is an unwanted attraction or an unwanted behavior. And so if that's the case, we do need to have resources for people to go and pursue what healing might look like in this area. But I just think grace and competency would be the two, like summarizing statements for me.

So, John, this is a question we were really interested to get your take on because I think it's occupying a lot of people's hearts and minds when it comes to same sex attraction and issues with this. They're asking the question, can someone ever stop same sex attraction? Because we get the two sides.

They're smiling like you.

We get like, well, I was born this way and I can never change. And then we get. Others are like, no, this is totally a choice. And I think it leaves people really confused of like, well, which is it? So when someone asks that question, how do you respond?

So I'm going to tell you my opinion and that's what you're here for.

We have placed you as the expert. John, please.

Because of the kind of work I work in, sexual integrity all the time and talk to people all the time. And I know tons of people who have come from same sex attraction background. When I press them sometimes they'll talk as if they don't. That never, they never feel that ever. And I press them. And so far 100% say, well, yeah, I mean, sometimes I feel that. And so here's my way of looking at why are we making. Let me, let me tell you a story that a pastor told me. I won't say which pastor. This pastor grew, he became a pastor later. He had a really rough life growing up. The first time he had sex, he said he was 13 years old. Him and a 13 year old girl had sex. Okay. And he said, if I'm being honest, I learned my first imprint on sexuality was 13 year old girls. And he goes, so teenage girls can be attractive. I don't focus on that. Okay, so how is that any different? Anyone we've ever been attracted to and have reinforced that through masturbation or fantasy or even sex or whatever, that doesn't necessarily go away. It's always there. I think of it like a scar. Our scars can heal, but they don't go away. And so to some people, it's all over the map. And instead of trying to focus on never feeling sick, it's like it's not, it's not a sin to have an attraction. It's a sin to do something wrong with that attraction. You know, if that makes sense. We're attracted to like expensive cars that we probably shouldn't be spending our money on. We're attracted to all kinds of, we're trying to make this be like, like you said, this own weird special category. And so if it's unwanted and I want to move away from that kind of thing, it's like I try to tell people it's probably not going to go. You need to quit focusing on that. The more focus on what do you want to do with your sexuality and with your desire. Let's focus on that and this will diminish. And in my experiences is during really stressful times, sometimes that come resurfaces, but then other times it's just not there at all. Yeah, but maybe somebody's different to where it's always kind of this low undercurrent of it all the time. Well, that's fine. There's a low undercurrent to, you know, do all kinds of things that aren't healthy for us.

Well, and what you're describing, you know, for us, we, we've learned in the recovery process is it's not just stopping the behavior you don't want to do anymore. It's replacing it with those healthy behaviors that you do want to do that are going to bring you toward the life that you want to live. And I think that that's, that's what I hear, I hear like Colossians, the taking off and putting on that idea too. I think that that's a, a principle that I see kind of overlapping even in this area. And you even talked about it in your story. It's not just, it's not just your attraction just decreased when you got married. The more that you pressed into your relationship with your wife and grew the intimacy that you had in that connection, the attraction then grew for your wife, even though you'd had this attraction to the same gender before.

Right. If I spent a few hours every week looking at gay porn, that's not going to help my attraction to my wife. Yep. But if I sit around looked at any kind of porn, it's not going to help.

Correct?

Yes.

Right. Good, good to make that distinction.

And I think what you're hitting on is gets into our faulty views of healing. And we hear this whether someone's struggling with pornography and masturbation or same sex issues as they think, well, if God heals me from this, it means I will never ever desire it or want it again. Which would be amazing. And I think God could do that because I believe in a God of miracles. It can do what he wants.

Sure.

But on the other hand, I also don't think that's realistic to the human experience of living in human bodies, in a human world where we're not perfect. And so I feel like we can be set free and in the process of healing from addictive behavior, unwanted patterns, even while a desire is still there. And that doesn't mean, you know, because I hear guys say, like, oh man, I still have these lustful thoughts. Am I not free? It's like, well, you're a human. You may have those triggers or thoughts that'll come into your mind till you die. That's part of our life with Jesus, of being sanctified and becoming more like him. That there's not a magic pill we take that it never is there anymore. But I think that can keep us from saying, wow, I am being transformed. I am experiencing healing and change because there's not this magic line between people that have lustful thoughts who are stuck, and then above the line, people that never, ever have lustful thoughts. If that's the dividing line. There aren't many healed people, in my opinion, in the world. Whether their lust is for, like you said, expensive cars or women or men or whatever their desires run to.

Yeah.

And I'm not trying to minimize the work of Jesus in our life or believe that he doesn't have power to heal or transform. I'm just recognizing, I believe we're told that sanctification perfection is only completed when we leave this mortal body. So if in this mortal body we still have unwanted desires, like, well, welcome to humanity. But even within that journey, Jesus can do an incredible work in us where we could say, I'm not living out those things, what you said, John, I'm not choosing those patterns or behaviors anymore. Do they still once in a while surface? Yeah, but when they do, I don't have to panic, freak out, think I'm still trapped, go, oh, there's maybe something in my brain that remembers that scar, remembers what that drug felt like or when it made me feel good. And I can make a choice to go in a different direction. And to me, that's freedom. Making that choice to go in a different direction. Yeah.

Okay, so looking at a marriage, again, a heterosexual marriage where one of the spouses is same sex attraction attracted. What does, what does a healthy. Because I know that not everybody, I mean I've heard this from people that not as you, and I think you, you even mentioned it, that the attraction won't necessarily go away. So what does it look like to still have that attraction but still be married to your spouse? What does a healthy relationship in that dynamic look like? Well.

One of the issues is if we focus too much because I'm in that situation, if I focus too much on, on past same sex attractions or anything that maybe comes up or whatever, if I spend my focus on that, I'm just going to be miserable.

Yeah.

Okay, so what I need to do is say when those things come up is like that, that, that's not going to, that's not going to help me at all. And so focus on my wife. It's like it's time to, time to go spend some time with my wife. I don't necessarily mean having sex. That's not what I'm talking about this time. And so, and what I found is that my relationship, my wife is fantastic. And that's what's interesting is my sexual life with my wife is better than I ever imagined anything could be. Which is kind of interesting. But by this thing that I have to, that makes me work so hard on my relationship with my wife just makes my relationship better than most people I know who are married.

Yeah.

So it's sort of an interesting thing. You have to have heard this many times. It's like I could curse my past sexual addictions and all this other kind of stuff like that, but the reality of it is the fact that I had to work through that made me way better than I ever. I would have been a very shallow Christian other if I didn't have to be humbled and work through all this stuff like that. And some people talk about being grateful for their addictions. And it sounds weird. I don't mean it that way, but it's like my wife and I have talked about, like, if we didn't have to go through this.

Yeah.

We would not have what we have here. And how do you reconcile that? You know, that's a tough thing. I mean, I was a really confused kid a lot of times. And we don't want kids to go through emotional pain and all this other kind of stuff like that. But some people react to that differently. But so as far as a relationship, it is. Spend lots of time with people, have deeper relationships. I know I talk a lot, but I'm actually somewhat of an introvert. So I don't have a ton of friends. I have a few friends, but spend a lot of time with them. It's just as important for my relationship with my wife that I spend time with some guys during the week.

It's good.

So on the flip side of that, John, what does it look like if we're a friend to someone and maybe we've been in group with them or just we've got the kind of relationship, they've been honest with us and they share that they have a same sex attraction story or history or current struggle, and particularly if it's maybe not our issue, we might feel a sense of like, how do I relate to you? If we're, you know, same gender as this friend, what does it look like to offer good, healthy friendship to someone who is having same sex attraction issues? Do we need to, you know, pull away and never hug them? Because I think some people might go, they're like, well, I don't want to be a trigger or Right. So help listeners process that. They want to be a friend. They want to help. But maybe there's a part of us like, this is a little out of my experience or comfort zone. I don't know how to be your friend. What does that look like? So what kind of advice or direction would you give on how do we be good friends to people of the same gender who've let us know? I've got same sex issues.

I read very recently in a book I'm reading that compassion is not empathizing for somebody. It's getting down in the dirt with them and staying there. And so being a friend again is not fixing anything. Right. You don't have to come up with just to be a friend, spend time with them. I would say you probably should hug them. We should be hugging each other more anyway. I'm not good at that. Don't get me wrong.

Well, I mean, Covid has definitely helped that, right? Don't touch me.

Yeah, maybe, maybe. Yeah, maybe. But what I'm saying is, is you should, you know, once Covid is over, you should hug people. I think we should be doing that more anyway. I know we're all awkward. You know, the fact that we're also awkward about that as a culture is a problem. But, but spend, just spend lots of time with them, like make them be wanted. It's, it's a lot of same sex attraction comes from not being feeling wanted by your own gender.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It seems to me like we have to as a society relearn approach appropriate physical touch that's non sexual. Because I think in our society we've sexualized any form of touch. And that to me, like as a dad, you know, I have two teenage daughters now and I try to make it a point, obviously non sexual touch, like to give them a little scratch on the back or pat their shoulder, you know, give them a hug, put my arm around them so that they are really internalizing. I can have physical touch that's non sexual from people that love me and that should be, are normal. But I think same sex issues have actually caused a deterioration of that, that we tend to hug less touch just because we don't have a language of appropriate physical contact. And so I think in friendship that's maybe a place to even relearn to say, you know, it's okay that I grabbed your shoulder, could we hug? And, and relearning that just this is someone that cares about me and it's non sexual. Our brain then I think starts to learn from that and go, oh there's, there's actually healthy ways I can have relationships with people my same gender that doesn't have to be sexual. And that is part of I think our healing and transformation.

I mean just. And to summarize what you're saying, John, what it sounds like is you just treat them like you would a normal friend. Like, you know, my friend Justin is our producer. He's my best friend in the whole world. I hug him all the time. And so if I really am treating a friend of mine who has same sex attraction just like a friend, I would hug him the same way I'd hug him. And for me I think it's that. And I think that if you know that about somebody, it's also okay to say, hey, if something I do makes you feel uncomfortable, just let me know. Like if you don't want me to Hug you, then respect that boundary. But again, like I just, what I hear you saying is just treat them like a normal friend, don't treat them any different.

And one of the things is too is just spending time with each other is that, that again, I know we're in a weird time and maybe people can't do that right now, but, but go out one day. Yeah. Go out to coffee with them, invite them over for dinner, say, hey, can we come over and have dinner with you guys? I mean, just, I mean really invest in people. It's amazing. You know, when you think about the church. When I, if I visit a church that's relatively new, boy, they, everybody wants to meet you and all that kind of stuff. And you feel, wow, they're so friendly. They're not friendly. They're trying to grow the church. Right. And they're, they're desperate. If you go to a church that's been around for a hundred years, which there are some, you know, there's plenty.

Of those around, like Jerry, that's my spot in the front row.

It's completely different. It's like people going in, they may be nice, but they're not trying to get to know you because they already have the group of friends.

Right.

So I think it's actually more of a challenge for a well established church because you've already got your circle group and you don't want more people in your circle group. I mean, it's painful to say this person needs to be in. I really see that a lot in churches. The well established churches have lost the ability to really welcome people into the family.

Yep.

Yeah. I think the word and it's funny because I think we've really let our culture misuse it. But inclusivity not meaning that, well, I'm just going to accept your behavior and call it okay. And we're going to change all the rules. But that inclusivity just means I'm going to include you as a person. No matter what your sin is, your struggle is, your skin color, your background. Like we are including you in the community of God's people because that's what God did for us. And if we're going to be God's agents and ambassadors and representatives in this world, then me including you as a human being worthy of love and respect and dignity, that's just what I do. Because I'm trying to love like God loved me. And there may come times for conversations about what's, you know, appropriate behavior or what is God calling us to in terms of people that follow him. But I think we can put the cart before the horse of just trying to figure out, well, if we include them first, what are we saying about their lifestyle? Just love people, include them, be their friend and trust that God's the one that heals, not us. I mean, so much of what you said, John, I think we can reflect on and say this would help us be better friends, help us be better church members, help us be better brothers and sisters. Just because when we start and see a person as a person and not for their struggle, then we create the kind of relationships and conversations that can lead to growth and transformation.

This reminds me of a situation that's come up. I remember I've been working in this area for a long time and the question comes up, like in a support group setting is sometimes people say, well, I want to be in a support group where all the men have same sex attraction. I think it's a really bad idea and not because they're going to connect. That's not the point. The bad idea is what same sex attracted men need is acceptance from heterosexual men.

That's a good word.

And so what I'm saying is like is if you are a heterosexual and somebody has same sex attraction, the answer is not to find them another same sex attracted guy who's in their situation to relate to him. There are some benefits from that.

We need people to relate to.

Yeah, absolutely. But, but maybe more than that, he needs somebody who knows he has this, that's, that's another thing. He has this, this struggle or whatever you want to call it and just treats them like another person. And, and because what we don't need is none of us need to be affirmed in what we're doing with our sexuality. We need to be affirmed as a human being.

Yeah.

And our culture focuses so much on, well, you have to affirm my sexual. What I'm doing with my. Why do I need to even know what you're doing with your sexuality? Like, well, since when has that become the greatest thing on, you know, so there's that kind of a. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's good.

That is good that I don't just need to have people around me who struggle with the same thing that I do to accept me. I need people around me who maybe struggle with different things to also. Because I think that I know I can get into that where specifically right now, anger is like this big thing for me. And so I'm, I'll share it with the friends I know who get angry at their Kids too. I'm like, oh yeah, like, you know, we talk about it, we try to do it, but how much am I willing to share that just with other friends who maybe that isn't, you know, and being able to then accept that acceptance and love from them? I think to kind of wrap this up, I think one of the things that really stuck out is just this idea, and we talked about it a little bit here, that we shouldn't put this category, we shouldn't put this topic into its own category, that brokenness impacts everybody and it manifests differently in everyone's story. And I think that it's really important that we respond with grace and as you talked about, John, with friendship to those who have same sex attraction and share that with us. Because from my experience, that is one of the most nerve wracking experiences for someone who has same sex attraction is sharing it with other people, especially in the church. And so our response is so important. And so we hope that this conversation helped maybe normalize the conversation a little bit more. And if you are struggling with or have same sex attraction, we hope that this gives you hope that living in healthy sexuality is possible. It absolutely is possible. And I love what you said, John, that, that it's not just stopping thinking about this or exploring this. It's actually moving toward health in the areas that you want to that really changes that behavior. So thanks just for being here. Thanks for your vulnerability, sharing your story.

Yeah, well, thanks for letting me come.

Yeah. Great conversation.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness. And lastly, never stop being healthy.