189 - Domestic Abuse

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Happy day to you people. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 189 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, the tall guy, Nick Stumbo.

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.

Okay. Yeah.

And now that I've done that intro, there's gonna be people that wish I wasn't the co host because they're like, seriously, all the things to get stuck in my head for an entire week.

Right. Okay. Well, let's just talk about what we talked about today. We today sat down with Heather Kolb, who's on staff with us here, neuroscience expert, content manager, and we talked about really a heavy topic that I think needs to be talked about. We talked about domestic abuse.

Yeah. And I just want to say, because you're the dad of two young boys, I'm a little disappointed you didn't have more of a reaction to the wheels on the bus. But that's another day, another conversation. The wheels on the bus go round and round. Much like abuse and violence, I think in people's lives, it's often something that gets perpetuated because of their family of origin story, or it's the only way they know how to do relationships, or it's a dysfunction that just I think people get caught up in. And because there aren't enough clear pathways, particularly in the church today, that say, here's how you face this, here's how you find health and freedom, whether you are the abuser that's stuck in that pattern or the one that's a victim. And so my hope in this conversation is it's just creating these conversations, creating these avenues of thought that doesn't leave this in the dark corners and. And leave people just feeling so shameful they can't address it because it's not an obstacle that can't be overcome. We don't have to stay stuck in these patterns and really, Lord willing, we don't have to pass them on to our kids in the next generation. So we want to be a part in conversations like this of exposing truth and hopefully leading all of us to better places of how we do relationships.

And before we get to that conversation, a couple of things. First, we want to remind you that coming March 5th and 6th, we have a groups conference. Nick, why don't you tell our people a little bit about the conference?

Okay. So if you're listening and you are in a Pure Desire online group, or you are in Pure Desire counseling, or you're leading a Pure Desire group, like, we designed this for you, and if you haven't signed up yet, it's hurting my feelings a little bit because I want you there. I mean, we were going to bring it to you in person around the country, but that's being delayed by our good friend COVID 19. And so in the meantime, we're doing this virtual event, both live streaming or, you know, watching the episodes after it happens. And we really hope people will come because I think when we're going through the process, we've got the workbooks, we've got our group, but it's so helpful to have outside voice to say, here's something that you can add in. Here's an idea that will help you grow. And it's just like that. That fresh idea, that fresh wind in our sails that gets us going in a new way. And so maybe you already feel like, man, I'm already running and doing well. I think this is just going to encourage you. But if you're feeling at all stuck, bogged down, or like, you could use some fresh perspective, that's the point of having this group's conference. So join us, and we really look forward to having a great time together. Yep.

March 5th and 6th. Go to PureDesire.org events to register two other things. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't yet. We're on all the major platforms and also follow us on social media. All right, here is our conversation with Heather Kolb on domestic abuse. Heather, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you. Nice to be back.

So we're recording this on a Monday. That's all I'm going to say.

Just a Monday. Okay. Monday.

Okay.

So today feels like a Monday. Today.

It does. It does. Someone Dan Howey, actually on staff, started coining Mondays as Disappointment Mondays. It's a trend we're trying to reframe, and he's leading the charge of trying to reframe that. Which is good. I'll catch up eventually.

Maybe we could direct him to our emotional health podcast. We did webinar.

Yeah. And the webinar we just did. So, okay, uh, we're gonna talk about domestic abuse today and how it connects to sexual addiction and sexual brokenness and how it plays out. And I think that this is a topic that we get a lot of questions about. I mean, if I'm thinking back to you guys, remember, right. We used to travel. Oh, yeah, we used to travel, and we get this question a lot. Um, and I think that it's something that there's tons of shame around both those who have abused and those who have been abused. And so I think from my perspective, having this conversation is really just to not normalize the behavior, but normalize having conversations about it in hopes that it will help people in their journey. And so let's just start flat out by defining what domestic abuse is.

So, domestic abuse is when you have one person in a relationship who is intentionally trying to dominate and control the other person. And it typically is in an adult relationship. And so that's basically it. But the way that they try and dominate and control. That's what we're going to get into today.

Yeah, yeah, because we're going to cover. I imagine there's a physical there. What comes to mind most obviously is physical abuse. And that's. That's the one that tends to elevate the fastest, where people become aware of it, because there are signs that can't be hidden. But. But as well as that, ways that people can use their power and authority to manipulate through emotional abuse or even spiritual abuse of. Of using, you know, the. The Bible or religion or. Or different codes of conduct to try to enforce what they want and get or manipulate behavior from someone else. And so I think today, too, the. The value of this is looking at how does domestic abuse kind of connect to everything else.

Yeah.

Because that's what I think can happen culturally as we take domestic abuse and put it into its own thing. And it is definitely something to be dealt with. But the way it relates to all the relationships we have, the. The way it relates to all of the way that we have a relationship with someone, I think is what we're trying to see today is all the connections.

And I, like, I say I've said this statement before, joking, and I want to not, like, mishandle it here, but like, as I've become a parent, I have. I've said the statement to my wife and to trusted friends, and now apparently to everyone who listens. But I understand why people abuse their kids. They get frustrated, there's lack of control. Maybe it's during a stressful season like this when we're going through Covid, it's really become something that you planned, but then can often happen if we don't start to figure out what's underneath. And so even for me, I've never abused my kids or my wife, but I think that emotionally I understand what can build up to that. And so that's, for me personally, why I'm excited to talk about this. Not excited. I'm looking forward, I don't know, to talking about it.

Yeah, it's important to have the conversation. So what would we define as the types or characteristics of abuse? What does that kind of behavior look like?

And so this is where. And we can just unpack this as it happens, but this is where there's a lot of if and then kind of behaviors that really come into play. Basically you're looking at physical abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, and financial abuse. Those would all classify as different types of abuses. And really what it comes down to, like, if we look at. And we can talk about specifics within those. But if you look at this idea that you have one adult in the relationship who's trying to dominate and control the other adult, this is going to include everything they do, everything they say, who they have relationship with, sometimes what they wear. Sometimes it could be whether or not they have a job outside the house or not. And all of those things, you know, come into play. Financial would be if, if you have one person who controls all the money in the relationship, then, then that could also be abusive. And so it really does take on a lot of different faces. And also when you look at this idea of dominance and control or power and control, you're looking at somebody so the abuser, and I'm just going to use that label, but the abuser is going to use like fear and intimidation and isolation and, you know, humiliation of these other things to try and control their victim.

So could. Because I. And I want to get into the spiritual piece of spiritual abuser because I think that that's one that is less addressed for sure. But as you're saying that I wonder, are there also like neglect or like a lack of investment or interaction that can be a form of abuse that if I don't engage with you or I'm cold and avoid and isolate from you intentionally when I know that you want connection, could that also be a form of abuse?

Yeah, so that would be more of an emotional abuse where. And typically it falls under passive aggressive behavior that the abuser. Yeah, the abuser is going to act indifferent or distance from the victim until the victim does or says whatever they need to do to comply to win favor. And then, then the relationship is restored. And it really is this a cycle, the same way we see a cycle of, you know, addictive behaviors. But this also is a cycle.

Yeah, yeah.

So what I hear you describing, Heather, is This is really a system that someone has in place to try to control another person.

Right.

So how would I could hear maybe for a lot of our listeners, a question of. And hopefully in a podcast, we all do this, of self analysis, trying to figure out, where am I healthy and unhealthy, where do I need to grow? And the person who's maybe realizing, well, I mean, I've used passive aggressiveness or I, I raised my voice and yelled to get my way, or I quoted a scripture and it was really just selfishly driven to get what I wanted or to try to keep them from doing something I thought they shouldn't. Where or how do you help someone understand? Maybe where are the lines between, okay, that was a bad decision, or maybe that was an unhealthy relationship choice versus you're really crossing the line into an abusive situation. How do you hear what I'm asking? Like, how do kind of see what, what does that look like? I mean, if, if I raise my voice and lose my temper one time, have I become abusive? Or how do I see when that's become a pattern? Maybe that's what I'm asking.

Yeah, and usually you are looking for a per. Pattern, and usually it would be the language they use is a pervasive pattern. So you're looking at not frequency and duration. So looking at how long is this going on usually, I mean, you can think, all of us can think of a time where we were inappropriate or unhealthy in our behaviors, but you're looking at this really consistent pattern. And it's not usually in just one area. It's in everything. You know what I mean? It's the idea of isolation and sabotage and limiting a person's contact with other people. And you know what I mean? Because the same with addictive behaviors, when there's a progressive pattern that the more that they have control, the more they want control. And so you see it even escalating in the behaviors that they have with their spouse.

Well, it seems like it connects a little bit to what we've discussed a lot on the podcast about big T trauma and little T, that there are instances of physical abuse or physical violence that it only needs to happen one time and it's crossed the line into an abusive situation or something that really needs to be addressed. And then on the other hand, you've got the little T trauma kind of abuse that maybe it's, you know, ways of controlling finances or controlling a person's behavior that, that it's the frequency and what you said, the Duration and how it's happening repeatedly that, okay, maybe none of it in and of itself. One time was that drastic, that, oh, he didn't want me to go shopping or whatever. But when it's this ongoing pattern, now we've got situations where the one time event or the ongoing pattern can both be as detrimental to a relationship and really cross that line into abusive behavior.

Right, exactly. And even like, for example, a financial abuse would be a spouse who works outside the home and they make all of the money, they're the person bringing in the income, that then they act like the money is theirs while their spouse who stays home and raises the kids and doesn't make any money, but yet is meeting a need for the family. The money isn't the family's money. The money belongs to the person who's earning it. Does that make sense? And so that would be a financial abuse.

Yeah.

So to me, just sounds like it's all control. It's a matter of feeling or taking power and control from someone else.

Yes.

Yeah. Which could be a whole nother podcast, I'm sure. So when we talk about domestic abuse, I think it's obvious to assume, and I would say even statistically, that it's more men are the abusers and women are the abused. But can it be, especially as we're talking about these other forms of abuse as well, could it be something where a wife or a woman is the one who's doing the abusing and a man who's abused?

Yes, it can. In the United States, the stats are one in four women are experiencing some form of domestic abuse, and one in ten men are experiencing some form of domestic abuse. And usually with men, they're less likely to be physically abused. It's more of emotional abuse that's taking place. But they can be physically abused as well.

Yeah, Yep.

Absolutely. It's just one of those things that's unreported. You know what I mean?

Sure.

It's. I think that there's so much shame surrounding it and especially for a man, you know, that they're not going to say that this is the way my wife is treating me.

Yeah, yeah, that's. It's just interesting because I think manipulation can be something that. That takes place, I mean, on both ends, not just from a woman, but I could see how, because, you know, I've. I've also seen that a. And this is not my experience, but the spouse that stays home could be the one who controls the finances and that there's a lording over of that and so I could see how it's. It is something that. Because what you said, I'm trying to bring clarity to my own thoughts here, but the idea of a pattern being what kind of defines that being something that's abusive. Um, I think I'd be interested to see even what our listeners could identify if they looked at what patterns do I have that I express toward my spouse or my kids or people in relationship and start to identify maybe I am starting to lean toward that abusive pattern. Um, I don't know if that's just interesting.

Yeah, well, and it's one thing like you could have, let's say in a relationship where each spouse has decided or together they've decided that, okay, neither one of us is going to spend any more than $50 without first talking to the other spouse, okay, that's not controlling, that's not abusive, that's good money management. You know what I mean? Right, exactly. And so those kind of things are healthy in a relationship, or you put up, you know, these different things that I'm not going to be friends with these people or I'm not going to. Of the opposite gender. I'm not going to, you know, have this type of alone time with them. You know, those are all healthy. That's not being abusive. But it's more of the extremes that you think about that that somebody is deciding for another person what they do and what they say and what they wear and, you know, yeah, it seems.

Like again, it comes down to that power dynamic or the control of I can control what you do, but then I get to make all the choices about what I do. And if that's a constant in the relationship, I think the need for that to be addressed because long term it's not going to work. It's not going to be a healthy relationship for either person. I mean, obviously we want to have, I think first and foremost concern for the victim and how to help them and support them and create an environment where they, they do have a voice, they do feel safe, they do feel valued, but on the other hand, helping the perpetrator because some of that we've talked about control and our need for control on so many podcasts, like to realize for the perpetrator, a lot of it may just be coming out of fear and a lack of self identity. In a sense, if I don't control people around me, I'm not safe. And, and so looking, how do we help both sides, whether it is the male or the female that's on which side or the Other seeing what's the dynamic in the relationship and how do we help both of them become a healthier person so that if possible, the relationship. Relationship can work. Because if that power dynamic continues, you're not really going to have a marriage or a successful family for very long.

Absolutely.

So how could we see, you know, relating to the work we do here at Pure Desire, how do we see domestic abuse connecting to addiction and our sexual brokenness?

Mm. So this one is really interesting. And if you look at the research that's been done, because there's extensive research in both fields, and even looking at the research that was done by Dr. Patrick Carnes, who put a list, this is the criteria that. That aligns with somebody who struggles with sex addiction. If you look at the list of criteria for somebody who struggles with domestic abuse, they're identical. They mirror each other. Which is. Yeah, it's fascinating. The things like an out of control behavior, consumed by the behavior, a pattern of it, an escalation in the behavior. You know, you can see all of these things in someone who struggles with sex addiction and with domestic abuse. But that's not to say that anyone who struggles with sex addiction is going to be abusive and vice versa. It just is. Is like you were saying, Nick, that reason that somebody wants control, which usually, and even for somebody who struggles with domestic abuse, it probably stems from some pain and trauma, some loss of control in their past. And so they're just grasping for control and it's showing itself in an unhealthy way. But it is interesting the way that these behaviors mirror each other.

I think when we look at addiction a lot, we see that it's a way of escaping pain. And I think one of the ways people can manage pain is we've seen so often is anger. And if anger is what drives us into addiction, anger is a huge driver into abuse. And whether that's verbal abuse or physical or other forms, if we have unaddressed anger and we don't really know how to process it properly, I think we are in danger of either we're in danger of trying to escape that anger and hurt ourselves through addiction, or venting that anger and hurting people around us. And so seeing some of those commonalities, what also comes to mind for me is when one spouse or the other has a lot of secrets to keep that control and manipulation is often the only way they feel like they can keep those secrets is I've got to control the money, I've got to control their behavior, I've got to control their Friendships. And it's not even necessarily about the other person as it is as much about protecting myself and my secrets. And so I think that's something we can be aware of and looking out for. And what I saw, you know, this was, particularly as a pastor, when cases of domestic abuse came up or would finally come to light, how often you realize the veneer that they were working so hard to make everyone believe that they were the happy couple or, you know, in church all the time or had the right answers. And that's another connection to our sexual addiction or sexual brokenness is there tends to be this. This double life. And that doesn't always mean that a person is trying to live a double life. Some of it is just how we've learned to kind of cope and. And hide our stuff. But I think that similarity of I haven't learned, or in cases of domestic abuse and violence, a person hasn't learned how to be authentic and real about the things they're battling with.

Right.

So on the outside, everything looks good and perfect, but what's happening behind closed doors in their relationship or in their personal struggles is. Is a totally different story. And so being willing to. To let people behind those curtains, you know, in our lives to say, here's what's going on in my relationship, here's what's going on in my personal life. The need there is the same, I think, in terms of sexual addiction and domestic abuse. So getting to that point can be hard, but it's so vital in both places.

Well, and I can see a connection between the shame that we feel because of an unwanted behavior. Let's say that's sexual addiction. And we feel out of control there. And an easy way to then exert that control is on someone else. Where I feel I physically, there's tangible, tangible control that I have over this person, over this relationship or a certain aspect of a relationship. And so I think that that could actually be a reaction to the shame and guilt that we carry because of the unwanted behavior we already have. Which, to me, then there's a connection that if we start to heal the wounds behind that initial unwanted behavior, that then maybe those patterns of abuse will actually dissolve as we start to get healthy. And as you're talking about letting people in and seeing who we actually are.

Yeah, that's such a great point that I don't know how to control myself. And so I can control you. Yeah.

So maybe these patterns exist, but not every spouse or every person sees it. So why do you think it's difficult and let's put it kind of under the umbrella of the church. Why do you think it's so difficult for a spouse or someone in a relationship to recognize these abusive patterns with their partner?

I think there's a couple of reasons. One is exactly what you were saying, Nick, that they look good on the outside. You know, they. You have a family who serves in the church, and they give money to the church, and, you know, they have all of these things that make them look like the perfect family, but nobody sees what happens behind closed doors. And I think the other reason is that you have a lot of people, and I say women because that's mostly what I've seen with this. But they don't know what they don't know. I mean, I'll never forget being in a room with some other women. And this one woman is going through a divorce, and I was much younger at the time, but she was just trying to really make sense of what was happening in her world. And she responded by saying, I thought that all husbands hit their wives because it's sad. It's very sad because her dad hit her mom, and that's what she was used to. And so when she got married and her husband hit her, she thought that, well, this is just normal, and it's not normal. But I think that because this kind of behavior lives in the shadows and nobody talks about it, that it. It's missed really a lot. And so, yeah, and I think that this is why we've kind of done things to help, and I know this for women, help them see what this looks like. In Betrayal and Beyond, and in Unraveled, we have an abuse inventory. And again, it's not to blame anyone, but it's just to try and make sense of our story. I think it's important.

Yeah. And I think sometimes we can have faulty theology that has been downloaded for people where they believe. And again, I think more often than not, women, but not exclusively, that women and wives can feel like, well, I'm here to serve and meet his needs. That's my role. That's what I'm supposed to do. I raise the kids, take care of the home. And so he's supposed to control all the money, or he's supposed to make me feel that way, or if I didn't do what he wanted, then I should feel bad. Some of that is just a theological error to say in meeting and serving one another in love, in the marriage. It doesn't mean we lose our voice or we lose our value and our worth. And that's the other thing I've seen in a couple of cases, and this could be, for the male or the female, the self worth issue, where they can almost say to themselves, well, this is what I deserve. And I've heard addicts talk that way, who in a sense are being abused by a very angry spouse, like, well, that's what I deserve. I've done all these things. And that's not to say that if we have been caught up in addiction and wounded our spouse, there's not a need for reparation and that they're going to need to process anger. So, I mean, there's some valid points to that, but there's definitely a way that that can be taken too far of, like, well, I've caused all this pain to them, and so now I deserve for them to hurt me. That's. That's what I'm worth. And that's not healthy. And it's. It's not. It's also not healthy if we bring that into a marriage from a family of origin or past trauma, where we just feel internally this core message of I lack value. And so when someone treats me as worthless and it's like, well, yeah, that's who I am. And so sometimes it's helping a person see, what you said, Heather, it's. It's not normal. It's not okay. It's not a healthy relationship. And that's not who you are. That's not your worth or your value. And so helping someone really recognize and see who God made them to be, the intrinsic value they have through Christ, no matter what, if someone really grows in that it will just naturally expose the wrongness of things happening to them. Because then an internal voice starts to say, wait a minute, you can't talk to me that way. God made me and I have worth and value. You can't call me those names. That's not okay. So I think that can be where a spouse may have a really hard time seeing what's happening to them, if what's happening to them is just making them agree with the internal lies they're already listening to.

Yeah, yeah, I think there is. And I don't know, I really don't want to make this general statement that all churches do this or all Christian communities do this, but I think in a lot of cases it's safe to say that establishing boundaries can be implied, that it's selfish, that somehow saying this doesn't make me comfortable. I, you know, specifically in this area of sexuality, if a wife doesn't want to give her body to her husband because she doesn't feel safe or because she's not emotionally connecting or a number of other reasons that are okay, you know, to experience and have that. There's this like, well, if I set a boundary and I think you're talking about, like, that then makes me a bad spouse, or I'm not loving or I'm not being gracious or understanding or serving. And I think that that's something that I have seen just in my experience, that when you bring up the word boundaries, people are like, oh, hold on a second. Like, you know, we have to consider other people. And it's like, well, maybe we also need to consider ourselves and our own safety, you know, emotionally, physically, and all that. And another thing that came to mind was our time with Jenna Reimersma. She talked about. I believe it's one of the managers in the internal family systems, the spiritualizer that comes in and oftentimes has the theological, biblical, spiritual language. But in reality, it's just the inner critic that's beating ourselves up and is trying to make sense of our reality and what's going on. And oftentimes I feel like the voice that we hear then, because it's spiritual or biblical or whatever, it's like, oh, that must be what's true. I do need to serve my spouse. I do need to turn the other chee and just suffer well in this. When, like, I think there's a difference between suffering well and choosing to stay in the suffering when we don't have to, like, you don't have to stay in the. You don't. I don't have to physically go home. If my wife were beating me every single day, which she probably could because she's really strong. But if I went there every single day and I got beat or I was being abused in some way. I do not believe that what God is telling me to do is I need to go home every single day, and I need to be there and allow myself to be abused. I really don't think that that's what suffering is after. I think that suffering is number one. It's a bigger context than just abuse. But does that make sense what I'm saying? I mean, maybe you can help me a little bit, but I just feel like there's a difference between, like, continuing to allow myself to be in a situation that's hurtful or abusive to me versus just. I think this is the normal suffering patterns of life.

Yeah, I think we can make excuses for someone's behavior, like, well, I just need to bear up under this. And they've, they've had a rough life, so I need to just forgive them and I know they didn't mean to do it. And, and a lot of these motivations I think we're talking about here can be connected. And you know, Heather, I've heard you talk about it in a lot of our sessions that the neurons that fire together, wire together. And so if someone grew up in abusive home or abusive situations, they may have almost normalized that. That's how relationships work. And their brain almost wants it to say, well that's, that's how we do this is I feel the pain. But then it leads to connection and, and it occurs to me there can be like a binge purge relationship to that. Can you talk a little bit more to that or how our brain can kind of be wired for that faulty way of doing relationships?

Well, I think that some of it comes from this environment. If you have a spouse who is living where this is constant, you know, where they really are experiencing abuse, they're living in this survival mode. And so there's parts of their brain that are going to be in the on position. They're going to be hyper vigilant and probably not surprised, sleeping well or eating well and trying to make the abuser happy at wherever they can. And then there's other parts of their brain that are going to shut down and not really be working very well. They're going to lack memory retention and all of it is coming from that survival mode place. But I do think that it's more common to find somebody who, and really the victim and the abuser who have experienced other forms of abuse in their life. And so there is a piece of it that seems normal. And the other thing that you hear from women, which is what this reminds me of, is that women, you know, they'll be talking to a counselor and they have a black eye and they'll say, but you know what, he was really sorry and he really loves me and he was so tender and attentive and you know, I really just shouldn't do that to make him mad. And that's what they say, say, you know what I mean? And, and that is something, I mean it's learned behavior, but it's because to some extent they've been conditioned that way to respond that way. And so trauma bonding we've talked about. Exactly.

And there's gotta, there's a, I feel like too. And just in my experience there's a fear of if I break up the pattern or the norm, that things will get worse or that I'll be in more danger, that I somehow have to allow this to continue happening? Because if I start to push back or draw boundaries, like, what if they kill themselves? What if they kill me or hurt me? What about our kids? I think that those are natural thoughts to have. And so it's better to just basically guard up, put on your armor and walk in and just accept it, because it somehow keeps this really dysfunctional status quo in place where things won't necessarily get worse.

Absolutely.

And that's scary. That's super scary.

Yeah.

So here's a vital question to bring into this as we're talking about domestic abuse and that it can be common or frequent in places. How can we create a safe environment in churches or Pure Desire, small groups where people really feel they have the ability to bring this up and not maybe be shunned or shamed for bringing it up? How can we create that kind of a healthy environment?

I think that we have to. And this is really coming at. At it more from the church. I think we have to talk about it. I think that if we don't recognize that it exists, that that's naive and we're not really serving our people well. You know what I mean? Not. I mean, either of them the one who is abusing or the victim. Because it just. In the same way that we've, you know, at Pure Desire, we try and talk openly about sexual brokenness, and we've given it this really. This platform where there isn't shame. And, you know, and we all need healing. And taking that approach, I think is really helpful. And then, of course, like I mentioned before, there's some of this abuse language in the women's curriculum that we've already created for Pure Desire, just because I think that it does happen more than it should in the church.

And I. I'll just where this is coming from. I am going back to seminary. And the reason why I'm saying that is because I'm pulling this from a course I'm in right now, that the idea of a leader in a church or a ministry leader is supposed to feed people and to care for people. And part of that is knowing what's going on in their life and ministering to that area. It's not just like, well, we talk about the things that I really like to talk about as a leader or that we've agreed on as an elder board, you know, are excited to talk about. So we're gonna talk about vision and discipleship, and those are all good things. But as someone who is leading a congregation or a community of followers of Jesus, you need to know where they're at and you need to speak to them, because your job is not actually to talk about what you want to talk about, to talk about what's going on in their lives and how to apply God's love and mercy and righteousness to it. And so. And I'm not trying to, like, spiritualize it a bunch by saying that, but I think it's important that you need to know what's going on in your congregation and then speak to that, because I believe that those things are actually the blockades, if you will, between the relationship someone can have with the Lord. If I know that I. For me, I know that when I was struggling with pornography and masturbation and sexual brokenness was dominating my life, I didn't feel close to the Lord I was serving. And it looked like on the outside I loved Jesus, and I was all about it and everything. But in reality, there was no intimacy with the Lord. There was no relationship. And so I think that as a leader in a church, or maybe you're just a volunteer who's helping normalize this conversation, you're helping potentially remove those blockades or those hurdles for people to truly experience the Lord maybe for the first time in their life. And so the implications are not just you're helping people get out of abuse or these relationships, but you're also helping them maybe meet the Lord for the first time, both the abused and the abuser.

Yeah. I think in church environments, small groups, we have to make sure that we're listening and that we're asking good questions, that we really. When someone brings this up, I mean, to recognize, much like we talk about sexual brokenness, that they've maybe not told people before, this might be the first time. And our reaction can be so key in how we listen and affirm and encourage and bless and not, you know, react with surprise and shock. And just like we've said in the Pure Desire University for years and years, that we want to be. We want to really empathize and feel shock or some pain with them about what happened to them, but not about their choices or I can't believe you did this or said, like, just really making sure we're affirming them as a person and they're sharing and that we're taking what they say seriously. I think there is some church culture that can still dismiss, like, oh, well, you know, well, that's just Ted. I don't mean Ted Roberts. I should pick a different random name. That's just so and so that's the way he is. And I'm, you know, we don't want to defend other people and we want to really listen if a spouse is bringing up a point and, And I think asking good questions. You know, in a pure desire group, in the course of people sharing, they may mention something that for them it's just kind of something they want to breeze by. You know, oh, and then he got violent. And then this, like, wait, could we, could we go back when you said he got violent? Like, what do you mean by that? And, oh, okay. And is that happening often? And has this happened before? Or maybe for a guy's group, he's sharing something like, well, and she took away my credit cards and my wallet and my phone and wouldn't let me have them back. And then he goes like, is that how she always treats your possessions? And does she use that to control and just to try to. As you talked about, Heather, that for some people, it's just the normal unhealth of their relationship, that they don't even see how unhealthy it is, that if we could ask good questions, we could maybe help them unearth some things that they've really accepted as normal, that. That really need to be dealt with. So I think as we kind of have our radar just attuned to say, let's be aware that this can be a part of people's unhealthy relationship patterns and we want to help expose it. So as you said, Trevor, so well, so we can bring it into the light and introduce God's power and God's love into that situation.

Totally. And man, I would say just to add onto that, Nick, like, thanking them for sharing, that I think is huge. Like, some people will kind of breeze over it because they've, you know, maybe it's just normal. But then some people, they like, tiptoe that line for a really long time and they finally are just like, okay, I'm just gonna say it. I think at that point too, thanking them is also huge because it lets them know, I see what you just did. And it was really difficult. We appreciate it. Cause I think that helps facilitate that safe culture. If someone is experiencing a man or a woman is experiencing domestic abuse, what do they do?

That one is really tough because like you had mentioned earlier, the fact that their situation could get worse is very real. Because if you think about even just the whole relationship dynamic, that it all happens in secret. And now the secret is out, then the victim, a lot of times will suffer the consequences of that. And so. So I know that there are a lot of churches and a lot of groups that are mandatory reporters, but I think that being sensitive and like you were saying, listening and being discerning is really important to even recognize that there may be some urgency to it. But then other situations that maybe are not as urgent and you could involve a counselor and a plan, and you know what I mean? I think that. That there's a lot that goes on. And I mean, what I've seen a lot is women who are in a abusive situation and they have kids, and they've been told that if anybody finds out, I'm gonna take your kids, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. And there's a lot at stake for a lot of people. And so just being sensitive to that and even asking them, because I'll tell you right now that there's a lot of people who are in abusive situations, and they have a plan. They've just never spoken it out loud. And the last thing they need is to have somebody come back in and try to control them again. You know what I mean? And so just to say, well, what would you like to see happen? Or what would make you feel safe? And, you know, having those conversations and then also being able to, you know, talk with the spouse, too, and say, you know, when it's appropriate, because it's. I don't know, it just can be a really delicate situation. And, you know, and some churches are better equipped to handle it than. Than others. But, you know, seeing a counselor or having someone to talk to or, you know, might be helpful.

Yeah. Yeah. I think when we're talking to the person that is experiencing the abuse, we want to say to them, get help, reach out. Because the. The threats or the things that you maybe fear are actually the very thing they're using to keep you from getting help.

Yep.

And that's just not going to be good for anybody long term. And. And I know you may fear, well, what if he does do that? It's like, well, there are people who will help you. And if you get help at the right place by going to a counselor, going to someone with wisdom that can go with you and say, we will make sure you're protected, that your kids are protected, and these things that are being threatened are not legal, he can't do them because we're here to help you. And so in many ways is important that those threats get undercut and you see them for what they are. And so I'm not trying to tell you to put yourself in a dangerous situation, but to realize that getting help may mean I need to go to others that can help protect me and not maybe deal directly with the spouse who's making the threats.

Yeah.

Now I'm, I'm hopeful that that's a small minority of the cases that are out there where the person is fearful of like their own health or their kids safety because that's obviously a very drastic different situation. I think for most people they're probably just feeling like I'm stuck in this pattern, it's never going to change. And that's my same encouragement like get help. Don't just believe that by doing nothing you're going to somehow make it better or they're going to change. Because if this is a pattern you're identifying now happening in a relationship over the course of years, it's like you need outside voices, you need outside support, you need outside wisdom and believe that you are worth, and hopefully your relationship is worth investing into this level of getting the help you need to get to a better place. The other thing I might keep in mind, if you are the person someone has come to for help, make sure that your posture is how can I help you take these steps? And only in the most extreme cases saying well I'm going to take those steps for you. Because that is where I've seen some of these kind of situations get really messy when a friend hears about it and they kind of go on a crusade, well I'm going to fix it for you. And they end up telling people that it just makes the situation much, much worse because then the other spouse does feel ganged up on, inappropriately exposed for their things like that they felt maybe weren't even entirely true. And just don't get into this personal crusade of helping your friend unless again, it's a very, very rare extreme, you know, where there's the safety of the family is actually at stake. You need to say to that friend like I'm with you, I support. How could I go with you to the counselor? Could I go with you to the doctor? Could I go with you to a lawyer? Could I go with you and really support them in taking those steps? Because that is where we talk about like in groups being a mandatory reporter. When someone is of an adult age and mentally and physically capable of helping themselves. It's always better if they do, if they pursue that help because otherwise you may be putting yourself into a triangulation kind of thing where you could become the target of someone's threats or a lawsuit because it really wasn't your story to tell. So that just is my encouragement as much as possible. Go with them to that person, but help them make those choices because that's long term going to be better for your friend who's come to you anyway.

Yeah, I think another thing to consider too is, you know, in these relationships, there probably still is love toward this spouse or this person. And so I think that we often can, and in this specific situation as well, justify their behavior or make excuses for their behavior because we love them, because we want what's best for them. But when that becomes something that's at the risk of your own health or the health of your family and your kids, I think that that's. If you're having. If you find yourself making excuses for that person, that's a pretty good indication that maybe I should take some next steps with telling somebody. You're going to see a professional. It is noble and admirable that that's where you're at, that you want to love this person. That's amazing. I mean, that's the stuff that's from the Lord. But continue to put yourself in a situation that's unhealthy for you and the rest of your family. I mean, that's a really hard decision to make. I wish none of us had to make that. But I think it is a decision that still needs to be made if your health or your family's health is in at risk.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what if we're in group and a group member brings up domestic abuse? What should we do? What steps should we take?

So in the curriculum, I know for sure in Betrayal and Beyond, there are some steps in the appendix to help women, in fact, even to create a plan, which is really good. Again, like you said, Nick, it's unfortunate that we have to put that stuff in the curriculum, but it really is sometimes what people need. You know, really all of these steps put in place is for them to just see it and see what it's going to look like. I think too that the groups are small, which is really nice. That's a nice comfortable size. And, and usually within the groups, I know that they're. They don't recommend giving advice. And so just to be clear, you know, make sure that the person who's sharing that, you know, if they're asking for advice, give it. If they're not asking for advice, don't give it. You Know, I mean, just, just listen because they might not be ready to have somebody, you know, take on trying to fix that, but they just want.

To say things out loud when even asking them permission. I mean, it is part of group to ask questions. But even asking permission, can I ask you a couple questions about that? Because if they say no, then, okay, like, you've respected their boundary and Lord willing, you're going to have more opportunities to enter in and ask more questions. But when they say yes, then you can start asking some leading questions to try to figure out more information. And they've given you permission, so they've opened the door and let you in. I think that that's a pretty good line to follow. So let's think about our friends outside of group, because not all of our friends are in group. That would be great, right, if all of our friends are people that were in group with us. But if we have a friend outside of group that we're not in that intimate experience with and we think that they or know that they're experiencing domestic abuse, how should we reach out to them? What does it look like to engage that with someone outside group?

And I think even doing some of these same things, you know, just to kind of have the conversation and, and see if the person wants to talk deeper about it and find out really what's going on. And I think that that's a good first step with a friend. There's not any, you know, mandatory reporting or anything like that. You're just really trying to support your friend and, you know, and give them information about next steps. But it really is, you know, being sensitive to them, being sensitive to where they're at because. And recognizing that their brain is probably stuck, you know, stuck in this pattern of behavior, even responding to the abuse in their environment. And so if they don't seem like they're ready to take those next steps, then don't pressure them. Just make sure that you're telling them, I love you, I'm here for you, how can I help you? That kind of thing. But yeah, I think even a lot of what we've already talked about would be helpful.

I think too, it's good to, as a friend to say what you're seeing. And so if it's a friend, you're concerned that they're the victim of abuse. Like, wait, I've observed that when you come into work, you're always really downcast and withdrawn. And it seems like it has to do with your relationship at home and how are things. And so you're expressing concern by saying, here's what I'm observing. I think on the other side, you know, for, like, men that you've got guy friends and you're seeing anger issues, you're seeing patterns, loving them enough to confront, lovingly confront and say. It seems like you're really struggling with anger. And there's a couple of things I've seen you say or do that make me concerned that maybe you're venting that anger on your wife or kids. Is that happening? And maybe even before you go there to say, and I want, you know, I love you enough that I don't care how you answer this question. I'm your friend and I want to help you, but I just. I know the kind of husband and dad you want to be. Are you struggling at home with venting that anger? And what's that looking like? I think done well, you know, if we don't come in the accusation mode and just, you better come clean right now.

Right. Well, and I mean, if you think about it, we talk about it all the time. That oftentimes the unwanted behavior that's fueling the shame and guilt is the exact behavior we use to medicate that pain and that shame that we're feeling. And so it could be someone just stuck in a loop. I think I would just add to how to help a friend is make sure that you have the education and the tools not to necessarily to step in and be their counselor, but if you don't know how to engage that conversation, maybe you go to a counselor or to a pastor or a trusted friend and say, you know, I have some people in my life that I feel like there are issues with abuse and I don't know how to engage that. How would you do that? I think that's just a way to equip yourself.

Yeah. And to keep in mind, too, that the type of abuse that someone that someone is experiencing is going to take a different source. You know what I mean? Like somebody who's being spiritually abused, they might go to a pastor. Somebody who's been physically abused might need to go to a doctor or a psychologist or something.

But, yeah, I'm really glad we had this conversation. This is not a fun conversation. And I know that even people who are listening, this may be really triggering. This may be really difficult to listen to or to even think about. But in reality, we really want both those who are abused and those who do the abusing to get healthy and to not experience this in their life anymore. And we think that part of that happening is having conversations like this. So thanks, Heather, for being here with us. Appreciate it.

Yeah, good to be here.

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