190 - Stories Of Healing: Joe McCarthy

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What's up?

What's up?

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 190 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Do you believe in miracles? Yes. Okay.

Is that movie called Miracle on Ice? Is that what it's called?

There is a movie called Miracle on.

Ice, is that not it?

Well, I was actually trying to quote the original Al Michaels voice it from like 1980.

Right. Well, some of us weren't around, so naturally.

But only that you referenced the movie, not the actual event that the movie.

Did, which is a great movie, by the way.

And the fact that, by the way, I think that was very poor Al Michaels, that's just didn't capture the essence of that moment.

You should really work on your inner dialogue a little bit, because I think it was fine.

Oh, okay.

I also think it's awesome that those were college players who did that. Anyways, if you haven't seen the movie, go watch it.

I'm sure it's a bunch of kids from the farm country of North Dakota and Minnesota, the upper New England states, just totally kids that did something amazing.

Seriously. Okay, so speaking of amazing, we got to hear a really, really good story today. We had Joe McCarthy, who's been in RGA with, is going to pursue getting his PSAP certification pretty soon here and is just, I mean, on top of being a business owner and a solid guy who's really good at pickleball, he has an amazing story of recovery.

Yeah. And, you know, speaking of miracles, like the kind of thing you wouldn't expect in a person's life. If I think you could know Joe's early story and what he shares today about what he struggled with, you'd say that that's the life of someone who's probably going nowhere. And yet he can look back at this track record of what he said today. You know, 28 years of sobriety from alcohol. And just the ways that God created transformation in his life that he's now able to share is a story that needs to be heard. And we need to remember that this is a miraculous work that God does in our life. And it's not always an instantaneous, you know, pray the magic prayer and everything got better, but of walking that road. And he talks about that in the story of staying on that road and continuing to pursue healing, whatever it takes. And I Think he's just a huge encouragement. People are really going to be blessed by his story today.

Totally. So a few things before we get to it. If you're not subscribed to the podcast, do it. We're on all the major platforms now, including Audible. If you can give us a review, it helps people see. The podcast means a lot to us. Also, you can follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We areuredesirepdmi and we have full episodes now up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. And as of right now, we are about a week away from the group's conference, the virtual Pure Desire Groups conference.

Well, and so there's probably no reason to really talk about it because I'm confident that every single person listening who's in a group has already signed up. Oh, wait, there are probably a lot of them like me that do wait to the last minute. And if that's you, you've been thinking about it, you've been hemming and hawing. You're like, should I go? Like, just sign up for the virtual part. You've got a few weeks. You can watch the sessions. And it's always just like the podcast. I mean, I'm guessing people listen to the podcast because they're looking for that bit of encouragement, that new idea, that thought that will help them take the next step. And I think that's what the group conferences, you know, just multiplied to another level. You're going to get some encouragement, some insight, some things you haven't thought about, ways of approaching your story or a loved one's. And we're just, we're here to see that encouragement happen. So if you haven't signed up, you've been sitting on the fence, like, just do it already because it's going to be good and we want you there and can't wait for you to be a part of the event with us.

And this event will be live streamed, and if you can't join us on March 5th and 6th, you will have a couple weeks after the event to view the recording. So just register. Anyways, just go to PureDesire.org events and find it there. Okay, here is our time with Joe McCarthy and his story of healing. Joe McCarthy, we've been trying to get you on the podcast for some time now. Like, I, I mean, I remember Rodney. I mean, we have this mutual friend who works for us, Rodney Wright, who is like, hey, you need to get Joe on the podcast. Hey, you need to get Joe on the podcast. I'm like, all right, so I've blocked Rodney, obviously, on text messages, but we've been trying to get you up for a long time. But you're here. Welcome.

Thank you. I'm so, so happy to be here. Pure desire has been a passion of mine for several years and a big part of my own journey.

And we're excited to hear that journey. I mean, that's the whole point of this episode, is to hear your story. I know there's some overlap with Rodney and. And what's going on in Idaho, and I know you've got just a powerful story. And we hope that these episodes where people share their stories is just a way that people can connect and understand that there are those who are maybe a little bit further down the road that have found success and freedom and are living in that health. So we're excited to hear about your story.

I mean, absolutely. I mean, one of the first things you should know is I've been sober almost 20. Almost 28 years. So, you know, just like AA. I think those testimonies really serve a purpose. You know, I always love to hear those testimonies in AA and how people came to sobriety. Why wouldn't you want to hear it about your sexual freedom as well? I mean, it's very powerful.

He's been sober since I was 5. Just putting it out there.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

That's a big part of my journey.

Yeah. So, Joe, before we dive into the questions, tell our listeners just a little bit about yourself. Where do you live? What do you do? Who do you do life with? Give us that snapshot of your bio.

Oh, snapshot of the bio. You know, I live here in Coeur d', Alene, Idaho.

Beautiful.

I am married for. Oh, man, I'm gonna get this wrong.

Pop quiz.

18 years, I think. Oh, man. I have two sons. One just turned 15, and the other one is 17. I own a small restaurant called Meltz Extreme Grilled Cheese is the tagline here in town. And I have a mobile truck that kind of goes along with that. I mean, what else is there? I love pickleball. You guys know that?

Yes.

I mean, that's a big part. Love recovery. Our family is a recovery type of family. My wife has been an RGA on the women's side. She's led groups. She does Al Anon. She works as an RN in chemical dependency. So we are a recovery family. We speak the language.

Yeah. And if you are ever passing through Coeur d', Alene, Idaho, look up Meltz. It's worth your stop. You'll be glad you did. And you can say hi to Joe at his restaurant, play pickleball with him. Yeah, he'll probably need an appointment for that.

Totally.

So, Joe, to get into your story a little bit today, tell us about. When did you realize that sexual brokenness was an issue? I mean, you talk about sobriety, and I know alcoholism being part of your story in the past, but in the realm of sexual brokenness, when did you realize that was an issue? And when did you start looking for help?

Oh, man. I mean, I think I first started realizing this wasn't normal probably. I want to say, like, 27 or so, like, because, I mean, basically, I mean, I have a fetish, so I have a smoking fetish. And so I don't know if you guys know that about me or have heard any of that part of my story. So, I mean, a fetish is. I mean, it's. It's like, that's my porn. That's my thing. So, you know, I started with that very, very early on. So you're aware of it, but you're not telling anybody. You're just going down that you're consuming it. So sexy.

Women.

Smoking is my thing. And it's amazing how comfortably I can say that today just because, I mean, it always made me feel so weird. It still does a little tinge, but I'm pretty cozy with now because it's just who I am. But, yeah, 27 or so. And then I started to try to get some books on it, and I did, like, a little counseling on my own. Didn't tell anybody. Yeah, I told the first person when I was like, 28 about this fetish, this hidden thing in my life that I told nobody about in my fifth step in aa. And I didn't. I don't think I really got serious about this stuff until I was about 42, 43, something like that. And Matt Yetter, who you guys know, was a big part of that journey and kind of getting me on that path as we discussed things about our sexual unbrokenness.

Yeah, yeah. So as you started to face that, you say you told one person what were some of the early hurdles that you had to face or to overcome on that journey towards freedom?

I think shame.

Shame.

The shame level. I mean, it just really kind of, you know, saying that stuff out loud really makes you feel like a freak. Like you're, you know, you're the only one, and so it's hard to even own any of it. And so with the, you know, when computers came up and I got My first computer, that was the first thing I Googled, was sexy women. Smoking was like. I think one of the first things I put in I can remember, download, you know, getting the gateway computer out of the box and putting that in there. And. And so that was a real. It was bittersweet. Right. Because first of all, you realize you're not alone, because I'm not the only guy with a smoking fetish. Because now you start to see all these images and people and blogs and yada yada stories, all kinds of stuff. So it's a little bittersweet. But I would say shame would be the biggest hurdle for sure. Just saying it out loud, telling anybody about it, it's tough because it feels kind of like. What would be attractive about that? I don't smoke. My wife doesn't smoke. Why would you find that attractive?

Yeah, well. And using a gateway computer was probably one of your early hurdles.

That's true.

We've got this stuff today.

Right.

It's so amazing because that's my struggle with Internet pornography involved a gateway and the first teenage years in my life as well. So I really appreciate the way you're expressing this, Joe, because I think for probably a majority of our listeners, there is some aspect of their story, and it may be totally different than yours, but some aspect of their story that makes them feel the same way. Why do I desire this? What's wrong with me is something twisted or broken, dirty. And I really think that's such a common element. We see that, we want to keep exposing that. So for you to verbalize the specifics of what yours are, I know for a lot of listeners, they're probably cringing, thinking I could never get that detail to tell someone. Here's the particular angle of my story that trips me up. But when we learn to see it for what it is and acknowledge it and get through some of that shame, that's really where breakthrough can begin to happen. Exactly.

I mean, you're giving me chills, Nick. I mean, that's what's so cool about it, man. You break free and you have the freedom because it's like just part of who you are, accepting who you are. It's part of. It's part of my own brokenness. It's what God's given me to deal with, and I'm dealing with it the best I can, and I'm sharing the story, and I want to be detailed. I think that's why. That's what Rod likes about me, is that I'm just going to be real about it.

Yes.

I don't always want to say pornography. I want to talk about the details, especially words like masturbation, you know, because that was a big issue for me.

Yeah. Well, there's a reason that phrase has become popular in recovery of the Devil's in the details. That it's in those details we really can figure out what's going on. Why does that trigger us? I hear Jay Stringer with that kind of, let's really look into our desires. Let's not just generalize, like, oh, I struggle with attractive women. It's like, okay, well, no how and what kind of a woman, and when. Because in those details, you start to piece together a story of, oh, this is where this comes from, which also then becomes the building blocks of this is what freedom's gonna look like.

Yep, exactly. And, I mean, Jay's been a little bit a part of that story, too. I saw him at the Pure Desire conference, and now I'm buddies with Drew. We just played pickleball together down south.

That's awesome.

Yeah. So Drew's part of that. You know, he's got a little bit of a different twist than the Pure Desire in the sense of just kind of embracing it and walking through it. And I learned about him on your own podcast.

Yeah, Drew.

We're talking about Drew. Boa Good guy. Okay. So, Joe, let's go to, you know, 27, 28. You start to realize this is an issue. You, as you're saying, you're going through AA and you disclose this fetish at that point, knowing that it's wrong, we obviously start to put some strategies in place. Okay, I gotta. You know, you talked about books a little bit like, how do I get more and more information to help myself here? What were some of those strategies that you were trying to implement to create that sobriety but actually didn't end up working?

There were a lot. I mean, you tell yourself so many different things that God created me this way. Those were things that I would say, but you got to remember that I wasn't a Christian then, so I hadn't. I hadn't been down that path, so to speak. I believed in God, and I was using God in aa, but I was just kind of doing Joe. And so. But AA gave me enough tools to say, hey, this is probably not a healthy thing that I'm doing. So, I mean, you tell yourselves so many different things. It's more about the control. You're trying to control it. You're like, well, if I'm going to do this I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it. You know, I'm going to try to. I'm going to get online, I'm going to, you know, type in this stuff. And of course, YouTube is all I really need, or any of those kinds of things. I'm not going to embrace it more. You know, you try all kinds of things telling yourself that this is fine. You would. I would try to be sober and then have sex with my wife. And then. And then. And then I tried to be sober again because nobody wants to masturbate a lot of times and then try to have sex with their wife. And you just get into all kinds of crazy mind stuff with yourself.

But you're not.

I'm not talking to anybody then. So I'm not talking to anybody at 27, 28.

Right.

So it's challenging.

Well, and you talked about, too. The shame is why we don't tell people. Because saying I have a problem is one thing, but then saying I'm working on it, I think can also be another thing, that I'm actually actively trying to stop this behavior where I think it's one thing, and this has been my experience, is that when you start telling people that you're working on it and doing recovery, there's accountability built in. Where now that you said it out loud, people are like, oh, okay, yeah, Joe's gonna work on this issue. And if they ask, then it's like, oh, okay, now I have to be honest. Or I either have to be honest about where I'm at or I need to lie about it. And so it's better to just not tell anybody because then I don't have to experience that interaction.

Exactly. And I wasn't telling many people then. I mean, I finally told my, you know, my. My. My wife now. But it was, you know, that's when we started dating around the 29. And I wanted to make sure I was honest with her about this fetish before we got married. I knew that. That. I don't know why. I mean, again, I wasn't. People speaking into me about that stuff. It just felt like that was the moral thing to do. And so that was a hard conversation because it's like, is she gonna accept me for who I am? And, you know, and then kind of the California way, I don't. Maybe I'm throwing California under the bus. But, you know, the California way at that point is really. Well, you know, her thought was, well, all right, well, maybe we should just try to embrace that. How do we Incorporate that into our life. And I was just like, you know what? I just know that this is not a path I need to. I'm already in deep enough. I'm not really telling her all that. Yeah, I'm not telling her all that. I'm just letting her know that this is probably not. We don't want to lean into it. I don't think I want to go farther, you know, because that's, you know, what a lot of couples will do. You know, they'll tell them, well, just. We'll embrace it.

Right.

And we'll incorporate it in.

How do we. Yeah. I think a lot of people listening, Joe, can relate to what you're saying about going through a season where you recognize some things in your life that you don't necessarily want there anymore, but you kind of get into a pattern of self correction and a lot of minimizing or rationalizing or embracing and like, well, I'll find a better way to do an unhealthy thing. And yet, so often, you know, the failures of that are what can bring us to a breakthrough moment are kind of that. That, aha. Where things start to click and we really head into a new direction with our healing. And so what does that look like for you and your story? What kind of led to that breakthrough or that place where things really finally clicked and started to move you into a new direction towards freedom and health?

Oh, man. After several years of trying to manage it right. Really just manage it. And there's a lot of different things you tell yourself as we've been discussing. I started, you know, I started attending a small group at Matt Yetter's house, and he was actually my tenant, and he invited me over and we started having a lot of discussions in the garage around sex, just open conversation, which I really enjoyed. I've always been a very open individual, and he started to challenge me a little bit on some of the things, and I kept minimizing. And then more and more I started going, you know, getting involved in church and I going to church. And then as you go to church, it felt like this is around. Yeah, I want to say 41, 42, I start going to church. And every time I'm in church and the pastor talks about sin, what do you think? The first thing that pops up in my mind or that's, you know, the stuff that is hidden or they talk. I mean, almost. It feels like almost every sermon they're bringing up something. Maybe you have something to bring to the Lord or whatever. And inevitably, every single Time. That was the thing that just blared from my mind that this is some unwanted stuff that you do not want in your life. So that started that real process of me really thinking, I got to really get after this thing. I got to get after it. And that was. You know, there was several events that occurred. I started going to a small group at the church in Post Falls, real life. And it wasn't Pure Desire, but there was a guy. You know him? You might know him, Nick. I can't remember his name. He even.

He would.

He counseled with Ted. Ah, can't remember the name. Anyways, he was a Pure Desire guy. Maybe it'll come to me. And it was really. It was really a big. Paul James. That right name ring any bell? Maybe not Paul James.

Not for me.

Back in history with Ted.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, what. Anyways, one weekend, Paul says I'm going to a conference, a Pure Desire conference. And he says, I got, you know, guy counsel. You want to go? And. And I was already kind of starting to go to groups, and he says, you want to go? And I. And my wife says, go for it. And so I jumped in and I went to a Pure Desire conference. And that really was a huge shift for me, to be amongst other men who struggled like I do and just had a whole weekend of open conversation. I didn't feel like I was an alien anymore. You know, I felt like I was normal at that conference.

Right.

And Ted, Dr. Ted was there and, you know, I mean, great speakers and that. That was a big part of the journey. But I also did the Celebrate Recovery in my other church. And again, to be the only guy in the room going, hey, I'm here because I'm struggling with masturbation. I can totally remember 20 guys in the room. And I'm like, I want to. I want to stop masturbating. And for me, that was. That was a tough, tough thing because that group ended with like four guys, I think. But I mean, I didn't say it easy that day. I say it easy now to however many listeners are going to listen to this. But.

Right.

You know, I didn't say it easily then. I was like shaking visibly. Like, am I going to really say this word? And amongst these. You know what I mean?

Can I write it out on the board or spell it out? I just. Not to say it right.

Yeah, that's not an easy thing. And, you know, Celebrate Recovery kind of started that. And that's where the. That's where I met Rod. After that, he was at that graduation, and I didn't know him then. And that's where our journey began together, Rodney. Where I approached him right after the graduation. I said, you know, I'm not. I had a little success, but I'm certainly not healed. I'm like, what are we doing, you know, for this sex stuff in our own church? And I heard that Ted was speaking in Spokane. I said, would you go with me? And to my surprise, he said, yes. I was blown away again, very nervous talking to the pastor because he was having barbecues with God.

Right.

He was the man. I mean, he was the guy I watched every week on stage. I didn't even know him then. So I was very. I was. I was very nervous. You could see my. My hand shaking. And it was. It was a. It was a big moment for me when that weekend. That weekend occurred, and Rod went with me to hear Ted and his wife speak.

Yeah.

On Pure Desire. And so that was a big breaking point that.

It's so cool to see where you're at now, to see where Rodney is now being on staff. He just goes around the country telling people about Pure Desire. And I know Ashley Jameson, if you've listened to the podcast, you know Ashley and her story, she's on staff. Just how you starting that conversation, as small as that was then, has created this trajectory. And so I think we should, like, thank you for just being honest and for even bringing it to Rodney. It's amazing.

It brings total chills to my spine. It's been awesome to watch all of it unfold with Ashley and Sarah.

Sarah Peters, right?

Yep.

Sarah Peters and Rod to put in his notice and all the church and all that.

So.

All right, let's keep going with your story, though. I think as you go to these events, you hear Ted, you're bringing Rodney around, and now you're starting to really dive into the Pure Desire material and getting healthy and helping other people. In your experience, Joe, what are some key elements that you found to finding freedom from pornography, from sex addiction, from masturbation?

Well, I mean, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is just relationships, you know, I mean, just are huge key that, you know, we can't do this alone. There's no way you can do it alone. That's why I love what Rod always talks about. The Trinity, you know, face to face. It's the same thing, you know, mutually indwelling. We, you know, we need each other. We need relationships, we need accountability, we need support. So that was a huge, huge, huge part. And that's the number one thing I think that comes to my mind. But there were, of course, you know, many, many elements. I think what's important to say about my own story though is, is that I wasn't a guy that was caught or had. Right. Because I think a lot of people, you find that's, that's, that's their nature. They were caught or they were had. And there's a, you know, there's a falling out of home and there's, you know, a big blow up. And for me, it was just God prompting me to be a better father, husband, better man. And that's what kind of, that's why I started to go. It wasn't like my wife telling me to go or any of those things. I'm trying to think of maybe another element or two. Obviously, you know, the material was great to dive into, unpack, and get into each and every exercise. I mean, I've, I've led so many groups at this point and been, I mean, I mean, Pure Desire has been a literal part of my life now for like eight years, nine years, every conference. Been to the conference seven times or. It's been a huge part of the journey. And I've been able to bring it as well to foreign countries where I've actually brought the material, your tapes, and spoke in Argentina and Cuba with Rod and India. I spoke to 70 pastors about Pure Desire and they don't talk about that stuff there. So, yeah, it's been a, it's been a huge part. I mean, it's. I think no matter what happens, you know, I've had, I had, you know, in the beginning, I had periods of sobriety, sometimes long, sometimes short. And that's why I love that the podcast you guys do on Lapse and Relapse, you, you really realize, you know, this is just. If you lapse, you just get right back up, man. You get up and you keep on the road, right? And you continue to find your way one way or another. That's what I can say that, you know, don't give up, don't throw in the towel and say this doesn't work. And, you know, no matter what, just stay on that path, keep digging, keep getting after it, keep leaning in. Those are some big elements for me.

Yeah, Yeah, I love it. I love it. You know, you talk about traveling to foreign countries even, and teaching on it, sharing your story. You're on the podcast today. For so many people, Joe, this is a very private, personal, messy part of their life that they're like, well, Maybe I'll deal with it for myself or for my marriage, but like, I'm not telling other people, I'm not going to work or my church and telling people. And yet here you are on the podcast. So what was that transition like in your life? How did you come to that point of feeling like, I need to share my story with others. I want to be open about this. What did God do in your life? Or what brought you to that point of just saying, I'm going to be open about this because that's part of my healing.

Man. It's, I mean, it's been such a, you know, a secret in my life, such a hidden thing that you're not able, you know, to experience the kind of freedom and just in bringing that darkness into the light and being able to just verbalize it and say, it is so freeing. It's just, I mean, it is, it's so freeing to not have to have that all pent up anymore, to just call it like it is. I mean, and God just kept telling me all along this way, you have to, you have to share that with others. You want to help other guys. Because I can't imagine. I mean, there's so much brokenness in this world around sex. So much, so much in so many areas. And it's not just pornography, whether it's same sex, attraction, bestiality, pedophilia. I mean, there, there's there's like 250 fetishes. I mean, there is a lot of unwanted sexual behavior. And we need a place to get help, to get freedom. Freedom is really what I'm talking about here. Freedom. We get so tired. We get so tired of.

Yes.

Cleaning up all this junk. Right? We, we act out, we do things we don't want and then we're always left to clean it up. I don't want to clean it up anymore. I mean, I want to go. What am I going to build next? Where am I going now? What are we going to, you know, what's the next level? Right?

We don't.

We spend so much time in that cycle cleaning up our junk. Cleaning up our junk.

Yep.

Stuck. Stuck, right? It's so much wasted energy. Like, let's just put out the fire and move on to the next thing in our life to make us, you know, more Christ. Like, so we can stay on the journey.

I'm going to. Joe, should you just take my job? You should be the host now and.

You should take over, Joe. You're just pumped, man. I love it.

I love it. It's so good. But. But this is what's so cool is, like, the first time that you shared your story. It's. It is not easy. You're not pumped up. You don't give the details. You don't talk about the fetishes or what brokenness looks like in your life. But over time, it doesn't become easy. I don't think ever sharing the brokenness of your life becomes easy, but it does become easier along the way, and you start to normalize the conversation about the topics that you're bringing up. And that's what I love, is that you have now worked really hard on your own recovery and are living in health, and now all you do is just, like, emanate that in the culture around you. You know what I mean? It takes 10 seconds of a conversation with you to hear the word masturbation and then also hear about your health. Right?

Like.

And that diminishes so much shame for so many people and just creates a new culture around you. And so. Yeah. Which we love you. We're pumped. But let's keep going. Okay? Let's keep going into your story. Part of recovery and the healing that we have, that freedom that we have, is a changing of what our relationships look like. And so now that you're into recovery, what do your relationships look like? Your marriage, your friendships with your sons. What do those relationships look like now that they didn't back then?

Well, I mean, as I've said. I mean, I've said for years, even starting with aa, that I mean, and this is what gets frustrating sometimes, running groups and being a group leader is that it's like, guys will put so many other things in front of their recovery, and it just makes no sense to me. And this all started from aa, remember? Right. This was another level of focus for me on my sexual sin. But it's like, why would you put anything in front of your recovery? I mean, you have to prioritize it. You have to make it number one. Then your relationship with God's gonna get better. Your relationship with your wife, your kids. You guys have seen that. I mean, you can't deny that if you give your all to your recovery, everything else gets better. And it has for me. That's why I'm still a married man in a beautiful family. I'm doing great. I'm doing phenomenal. And I continue to go, well, what's next? So I think that it's like, why wouldn't you put it number one, guys? So, yeah, I'm going to your kid's soccer game. I'm not telling you that's not important. But I mean, we're talking about a two hour group a week. Please, please make it a priority. And I would say that to any guys in a seven pillars group right now, please make this a priority. Do your work, do your faster scale, give yourself minimum 20 minutes and show up and participate. Be actively involved. Because it gets very frustrating to a guy who's given their time, you know, and you got people that, you know, want to put this in front and this in front and that in front. And you're like, it's two hours a week, people. This is your recovery. That's what I want. I want to shake them.

Yeah.

I love it at times. At times. So, I mean, you know, for me, I do struggle with that sometimes in groups, you know, where. Come on, guys, let's get into this. Let's give it to each other.

A lot at stake.

Totally. Yeah. That's what I hear you saying, is when we prioritize our healing, it's putting our health and really our family's health first and foremost. And it's, it's so true that like when those things are rightly aligned, when we're in good relationship with ourselves and God and our family, like we can face this world with just a totally different perspective because we've, we've really faced the priorities. I mean, using the faster skill language, like if we're walking in our priorities, we're often living the kind of life we want to live. And so to make it top priority just makes sense because it does impact everything else.

Right, Right. I mean, it's, I mean, relationships are, I mean, I love this word brutiful. I heard a pastor do a thing. I'm brutiful. And you know, if relationships really are hard and we know that being married, hard. My relations with my kids are hard at times. But we also need, we need each other so bad as well.

Right.

So they're brutal. They're challenging us, but we need, we need each other. So they're just huge. So all the relationships are better, but it takes never ending, intentional work.

Right.

I mean, it's. You got to be, you got to be in the game. I don't know what else to say about it. You got to be in the game. Intentional.

Yep. Yeah. So talk a little bit. I mean, you've mentioned leading groups, that sort of thing. What has. By telling your story, being open with others, what kind of opportunities to minister to others has God given you in this area? And just tell us a little bit more about that and the opportunities you've had.

Well, I mean, you know, as I've said, I've been able to bring it to other countries, but I've also been able to go to college campuses and, you know, just being friends. You know, Rod's one of my best friends. And just being a part of Rodney's life who's working now with you guys. And, I mean, that guy will knock on a church door anywhere, we'll travel anywhere, and he will walk right up, and he's just got that kind of personality that is all in. So just being a part of that. And it seems like we're always able to minister to others and to be part of that journey. But, I mean, I continue to dive deeper in other online groups. And Craig Blanchett, I don't know. Does that name sound familiar to you guys? Craig Blanchett again. I met him on a stage at a Pure Desire conference. He now lives in Coeur d'. Alene, and he is a bit. He's big into this kind of ministry. And, you know, we talk and, you know, these. All these guys are in my life. So I've had a chance to do a lot of really cool little events, little breakouts, college campuses where you're able to just say it's. And now I'm finding myself saying it more and more often. You know, just. This is part of what I do. And, you know, to the point where I'm signed up here now for the PSAP coming up, and just being able to, you know, just put it out there, because, I mean, there's just. I can't imagine living with the kind of stuff. I mean, I just have a fetish, which, again, to me is kind of can be pretty mild when you're. When you're looking at some of the shame that some of these other things can create around that. And I would really love to create a safe place for any guy. That's where the passion comes from for myself. Yeah, to really create a safe place for any guy struggling with, you know, if they're having fantasies of raping other women or violence or, you know, some of these things carry such a high, high shame level. But I think if we're honest as a society, there's a larger amount of men that you'd be shocked. They say, like, 3% in the pedophilia range of men. That doesn't mean they're acting on it. They're just fantasizing. And we don't know what happens with Our sex stuff, it grows.

Yeah, right.

Yep. Well, and you look, Joe, at what's going on in our world. Whether it's the movies that are being produced, the things that are depicted in pornography, the video games that are coming out. I mean, I think everyone's aware there's a really dark, ugly side of our culture. And sometimes as Christians, we're tempted to just kind of ignore that or bury our heads in the sand and think, oh, well, no one in the church is being impacted by that. And yet we live in this world. Men that come to church every Sunday live in this world where that may be the kind of movie, the kind of video game, the kind of pornography they're being exposed to. And it is creating pathways in the brain that, whether out of curiosity or a desire to replicate something they've seen, is getting stuck there. And what I think happens in church is when we don't acknowledge that we do, we only increase the shame. Because it's like, oh, it's not normal for me to feel these things when really the places it's coming from, the media influences, the things we were exposed to, it's like it's the same as anything else. And so if it's in our world, I guess what I'm getting at is we as Christ followers and as the church, we've got to have tools to combat it. We've got to have tools to say we can deal with this and overcome it. Because, yeah, the world might throw out some garbage at us, but Jesus has a better plan and we can overcome it, but not until we face it. And so I love what you're saying about if you face your fetish. It's just the same as another guy maybe facing something in his life that a little voice is telling him, oh, this is so horrific. No one in the church would ever understand, when really the church is the perfect place to understand. Because we know the wickedness of evil. We know what sin does to people, and we should never be surprised that that, oh, man, your sinfulness took you over here, but it took me over there. Like, it's all sinfulness and it's all ugly, and it's all coming out of that place of brokenness and depravity. So I love what you're saying. Whether it's a certain fetish or issue, like, it is what it is, and if we don't expose it, it's not going to get better. What gets better is bringing it into the light and being able to talk and find community and find healing. So just you know, whatever I can do to say, right on. And keep going down that path, because what. What everyone struggles with, I think we're going to keep seeing it get increasingly diverse and. And we won't always understand even maybe something someone's confessing to us of what they struggle with. It's like, man, I. I don't totally get that struggle, but I know what that feels like, to feel like there's just something twisted in you. And. And the great news is God forgives and heals, and we can deal with this together. Yep.

Yeah. And, I mean, that's what's so great about pure desire. It's that that's what gives you the tools. And I mean, so often you sermon on YouTube or pastor or even in a book, and they'll call out pornography, they'll say pornography or whatever in their sermons, but they don't follow up with, well, here's some tools that you have, you know, and here's some things you can do. It's just like, you know, you can. You know, you need to deal with that. Maybe get some counseling. They'll say kind of randomly or, you know, and it's like, no way. Here's a Christian ministry that deals with this brokenness. How about you put it in place at your own church and do something, you know?

Yeah, that. I mean, we could riff off of that for a while. But, I mean, and I want to say this right now, we say that a lot, where it might often seem like we're poking at the church, but in reality, we just see the potential that the church has to reach people in this area. And we love the church, and that's why we have conversations like that. But, Joe, what? Just, I mean, think, you know, think that maybe there's a guy who's listening to this or a woman who is listening to this, who. They're maybe on the front end of their recovery. Maybe they're in their first group. Maybe they are leading their first group. Just think of people who are in this recovery process. What encouragement would you give them on their journey?

You know, I would say, don't listen to that little voice that tells you, you know, to not say anything. Right. To take that leap of faith that there is so much to be had on the other end. If you can walk through a little bit of that uncomfortableness again, to coin another Rodney phrase, at least maybe it is not his, because we all know healthy people seek help. I love that one. I reiterate that one. Often healthy people seek help, and the church is a Hospital, or it should be like a hospital. Hopefully this is an area where you can come and get help. And there's so much freedom to be had on the other end that, you know, it's like just, why wouldn't you? Why? I mean, why wouldn't you? I mean, why wouldn't you take that first step and be able to just start going down this path? And sometimes it's hard to find somebody else to talk to. But, you know, like Rodney and I did, we just started our own group. There were no other groups. We just went for it. And we didn't do it all perfect the first time, but I think that, you know, often that sometimes is what all you have. So, you know, don't. Just because you go on the Pure Desire website and you can't find something close, don't just say, that's it, you know, there's help out there, you know.

Yep.

Well, as, I mean, Joe, you shared the process of healing is not a simple one. And it's not this, like, straight line that is, you know, do step one, two and three and you're good to go in six weeks. But what is evident, listening to your story, is that there's a lot at stake if we don't get healthy. Our own personal, like, view of ourself, our own personal purpose, mission in life, but then also the relationships we have with our friends, with our spouses, with our kids and. And I just, I love it. You're just a go getter. You're just going to run after it and you're going to be the first one through the wall. And honestly, Joe, we're honored to have you with us today and we are excited that you just continue to build this culture where it's an okay thing to talk about and it's a good and courageous thing to run after it. So thanks for everything that you do and for being with us today.

I really appreciate the time with you guys. Guys, I value you guys both as friends and I hope to see a lot more of both you in the future.

That's right. And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.