191 - Tools For Betrayal: FASTER Scale

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hello there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 191 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stembo.

I'll be back.

I. It blows my mind that you haven't used that one yet.

I. I know I double checked, but I have not.

You listened to all 190?

No, I keep a list, as our faithful listeners will know. I have a list. 191 items listed down. Control F. Search the documents. Like, nope. I've said a couple other phrases that had the word back in it, but it was not. I'll be back. We'll do a word study. Our good friend who said it originally, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Arnold Schwarzenegger. Do you know what year.

Was it? Early. Was it early 80s?

Yeah, I looked at Terminator. 1984 was the first Terminator. So yeah, that's starting to go back a ways.

Do you like the first one or the second one better?

I. I've not seen either of them recently enough to even remember, like, which is which.

Okay.

I know the phrase I'll be back probably better than anything else about the movie.

Okay. All right. Well, I imagine that's going to tie into what we're talking about today, which you do every time. We had Ashley Jamison, our international groups coordinator for women's groups, on to talk about. We started this new series, Tools for Betrayal, and we talked about one of our favorites, which is the faster scale.

And hence the greeting of I'll be back because the faster scale is back for another go around. But really from this unique angle of what does it look like if we're not the one, that the driving behavior is what's led me into group. It's why I'm doing the faster scale. You know, it's a little easier to see the connection there if you're the betrayed spouse. The feeling of like, well, what's in this for me? What do I get out of it? And I think just to hear Ashley share that perspective and the health that can come from this tool for everyone is really an encouragement. So I think it was a great episode.

Yeah, I agree. And this is going to be a great series. A couple things before we get into that. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms now, including Audible, and if you could write a review that would help other people find us. Also, follow us on social media earedesirepdmi. And we have full episodes up on YouTube now. Search pure Desire Ministries. And then this week, Nick, it's like, okay, so Today it is March 2nd, and in 1, 2, 3 days, March 5th, we have our Virtual Groups conference.

Yes. So if you're one of those faithful and our favorite podcast listeners that, like, catch the podcast soon after it comes out, you still have time to join us. And why wouldn't you? Because I'm excited about it. You should be excited about it. Okay, I won't tell you what to do, but you've been hearing us talk about it long enough. And if you've been dragging your feet, there is still time to catch this conference and the streaming episodes that we'll have later if you can't watch it all this weekend. But, yeah, we'd love to have you there to just breathe some new life into your group experience, whether you're in the group or leading the group, or maybe you've been out of group for a while, but you're looking to start something at your church with friends. Like, this is the place to be, and we hope that you'll join us. And if you're listening to this podcast down the road, well, come to the next one.

Right. So you can just go to PureDesire.org, search for the event Virtual Groups conference, and you will find it. Now, here's our episode, Tools for Betrayal on the faster scale with Ashley Jamison. Ashley Jamison. Welcome back. Welcome back.

I am glad to be here.

So if you hear a little bit of a, like, nasally sound, that's Ashley being sick.

No, it's. It's smoky.

Oh, smoky.

Lounge. Ish. Lounge singer.

Okay. Oh, from all my coffee, I was like, it's smoky in her room. Like, what is she talking about? No.

Okay.

All right. So we did a series back in June and July, in 2020. You guys remember 2020, right?

Try not to try.

It looks like 2021.

Right. We did a series in June and July of 2020 on recovery tools for those who struggle. But we wanted to do a new series called Tools for Betrayal. We're going to talk about the tools that betrayed spouses can and should, should use on or in their healing journey. And I think that oftentimes it's easy to. I don't just. I mean, I know for me, I've never been through a betrayal resource. And so for me, oftentimes I don't think that way. And so this is an attempt to really look at it in the next four Weeks to look at this, where these are gonna be tools that will help people on their healing journey if they are betrayed spouse or have experienced betrayal trauma. So we're in week one, and the tool that we're talking about, it's one of our favorites here at Pure Desire, we're talking about the faster scale. And so, Ashley, why don't you recap us real quick again? Maybe this is one of the first episodes someone has listened to. What is the faster scale?

Yeah, I want to start by saying that this tool is so applicable to anybody, even though so many people assume it's a sexual addict tool, because that's, you know, it's in our main resources. But the other day, I was talking to my girlfriend, and she's saying, like, four kids, they're building a house, stress Covid, you know, everything. And she was just so, like, down and depressed and done with her kids. And I had her come over and I had her. I taught her how to use the faster scale. I gave her the home stress test, and she was, like, blown away. She went home that week and was like, I can't stop being aware of what I'm thinking and doing. That tool is so good. And so it's really for anybody. I mean, it doesn't have to be sexual addiction. It's an emotional and behavioral awareness tool. So it just helps us to see our patterns that lead us to relapse. And our relapse could be just that place we don't want to go again. The place we said we didn't want to return. And so for Betrayed Spouse, I know for me personally, it's when I'm in that deep, dark hole, and I can't. I can't. My mind feels like a prison, and I'm in so much pain, or maybe I can't get out of bed, or it could be anger. It could be. It could be a sexual acting out. But for. For me, with the betrayed side, it usually looks like coping through eating or just depression or shame. Just that. That. That area that you don't ever want to return to again. And so this scale, faster is an acronym. Forgetting priorities leads to anxiety, leads to speeding up leads to ticked off, exhausted, then relapse. And so it helps us to start seeing our behaviors and just having something really tangible to highlight and underline. Just if we're doing it, don't ask me if I'm stressed or in relapse. Just ask me what behaviors. So when I handed my friend that paper, I just said, just highlight anything that's applied to you this week. And she's like, what does it mean? And it was like, lit up like a Christmas tree. Like, you're in a really dark place. I like the whole place. Yeah. And so it just. It's really objective. And I had women in my group say, like, I don't like seeing all this bad stuff about me. I don't like highlighting all the negative things. And. And I just try to remember that these are things. Things you're highlighting are things that you're already doing and you're already thinking, and it's already leading you to these places. So highlighting it is doing nothing but just showing you the areas that you're struggling in and need work.

And I think we maybe want to underscore one thing that it's not. Is that it's not a performance scale.

Right.

So it's not. The higher I am, the better I am, and the lower I am, the worse I am. Because I think we can have pretty good weeks where we get kind of low and. Because that's life and that's how we live. And we can have weeks we stay pretty high, but maybe aren't making very good choices. So we really want to get out of that mindset of, you know, high is good, low is bad. Because as Ashley said, it's about awareness, and awareness is good no matter where you're at. But it's also, I would just mention, a relapse prevention tool. So the goal really is to see the patterns of behaviors we all can enter into that take us to those places we don't want to go. And because we're more aware of them, to choose differently, to avert from that path that often leads us to that place we don't want to go and make healthier, better choices, which means getting off of that faster scale and getting back into a place where we're just living in restoration, in wholeness, with God, with one another, and with ourselves. Because that place is where we want to learn to live. And so if we realize we're anywhere other than that, whether we're just in forgiving priorities or way down at the bottom of exhaustion and even relapse, we want to be aware of it, get off the scale, and move back to that place of health and restoration. So thinking of it that way. Yeah. Just to echo a few more examples that Ashley was giving, people could relapse with excessive exploding in anger at their kids, excessive spending online binge eating late at night.

Have you been reading my faster scales recently, Nick?

You could have excessive workaholism you could have excessive cleaning control issues like that, where you just realize you kind of lose track of anything else important. And just all you do is that thing that you're like, here I am again. And that has value, I think, to everyone everywhere, as Ashley was saying. And so for the betrayed spouse in particular, I think today can help them see how could this become actually a significant part of my health, whether or not my spouse is on board or not now, hopefully they are, but even if they're not, there's tremendous value for you in this scale.

We just recently, my son celebrated his fourth birthday, and, I mean, four years old, like, high highs, low lows. And we were having one of the low lows, and I went into the kitchen and just decided to start doing the dishes, which usually means I'm stressed.

And.

But I wasn't thinking about it. And my wife's like, hey, you okay? And I'm like, oh, yeah. This is what I do. I'm speeding up. Okay. This is what I do when I'm stressed. I go in and I isolate and I do this. And so for me, what's great is I've used it enough now where when she asks that question, this doesn't have to be something that I recognize per se. It could be something that someone points out, like, hey, I noticed this or that. But for me, I'm able to tie that to where I'm at emotionally. And so I finished the dishes, though I didn't leave them undone. But I did process with my wife and not isolate. But for me, that's just a practical example of how it can connect everyday life.

Yeah, I would definitely let you finish that behavior and then be like, now.

Let'S talk about where you're at.

It's cleaning. You're choosing to cope. Go ahead.

Yeah, right.

Seriously, run down.

We'll get off the scale later.

Yeah, right.

We'll get off the scale. Yeah. And like what Nick said, it doesn't always mean you've had a bad week. Like, I've been sick the last week, and being sick can contribute, you know, if you're tired or not feeling well, you're in pain, all those things can run us down. So just being aware that I'm tired, I'm probably gonna be more irritable, and then setting in parameters so that you don't have to end up, you know, being relapsed because your sickness led you to, you know, bad behaviors.

So, Ashley, a lot of betrayed spouses maybe know about the faster scale because it's come up in their struggling spouse's homework or their lessons or they've watched them go through it. And many betrayed spouses can feel like, well, this isn't for me. This is their work. This is their job. And then they're introduced to the faster scale or they come across it in their workbook, and it's like, well, wait a minute. Why do I have to do this? So just give us some perspective on why would a betrayed spouse use the faster scale?

I think the biggest reason other than we're all human and have our things. I'll get to that later. But the biggest reason is that especially when you're in fresh betrayal trauma or you're living with a spouse who's really unhealthy or an addict or continuing to hurt you, your rational brain isn't always on point when you're feeling so betrayed. And so for me to have a scale like this, where I can emotionally and behaviorally check on what I'm doing is even more important when I'm in trauma. Because, I mean, when you're doing good and not in pain and things are rosy in life, you tend to be like, I'm killing it. I'm crushing it. I'm doing all my things. It's when we experience pain that we start doing behaviors that are destructive to us, whether it's an addiction or whatever. And so it can be the same thing for a betrayed spouse that when the person who's supposed to protect you and love you and care for you betrays you, it can completely just shut your rational brain down and you're feeling everything. And so that's when we need those outside voices and things like this, outside tools. And not all. You don't always have a bad week. There's plenty of good weeks, too. But. But for the woman who maybe is fresh in her trauma and wondering, why are we doing this? This is not why I'm in group. It's because it's. It's still good to see how you respond emotionally. And so that betrayal trauma response so somebody else hurts you, and then you're feeling it, and so you have so much control over how you respond to it. It's not your fault you didn't cause it, but at the same time, how you respond to it is either going to help you or it's going to hurt you more. And so it just helps with that.

Yeah, I think of it sometimes as like a map where I can figure out where exactly I am on the map. And that's, you know, let's say, I'm starting in. This is really fresh. But I know that I want to heal and I know that I want to restore my marriage or I just want to get a sense of, like, foundation of, like, normal. Like, I just want to get back there. If you look at the faster scale, it can basically, it's like a you are here sign. You can, like, see on the map. Oh, okay. That's why I've been acting this way or doing this. And so then at that point, you can plot course for what to do to make changes to get off the scale. Because we talk about that a lot and we'll make sure in the show notes we have all of the episodes that we've done on the faster scale thus far. But it is one of those things where self awareness isn't alone just going to change anything. But at least it can be the starting point of you then making steps to get out of where you're at and more toward health.

Yeah, I think about an illustration that I know I've used on a lot of podcasts, but I think about the illustration of the whole, the principle of the whole, that if you're in a deep hole, the first step is to always stop digging. And so if our spouse is struggling and we feel betrayed and wounded, but I blow up in anger at my kids, in a sense, I'm still digging because now I have to deal with the trauma and the woundedness, but also repair a relationship with my kids, kids. Or if I, you know, spend excessively online, now I've got to work on paying off a credit card or returning a bunch of items because I allowed the emotional trigger, a betrayal, to just make my hole even deeper. So I, I think for that betrayed spouse, just to see how can I try to get some stability to normalize where I'm at so, so that you can deal with the pain and trauma is really, really important. Two other things. For couples that are in some recovery together, a great thing about you doing the faster scale is how it gives you some, I think, empathy for your spouse. And, and I'm not saying in any way to justify their behavior or say that it's okay, but if you can recognize how you both move down a faster scale towards places you don't want to go, it may give you some empathy and insight into their world of why they've made some of those choices in the past, of what takes them there. And the other great thing that I've heard a lot of couples talk about is just that common language of being able to say to someone, you know, where are you at on your scale today? Or, you know, in your story, Trevor, are you in speeding up and being able to say that to a spouse who knows what you mean and doesn't look at you like, what does that have to do with our son's birthday party? That. That common language really, I think, can help you be a part of one another's support and encouragement because you recognize what's going on and can just speak that same language.

Yeah. And it's funny because as you said that too, I think it would be different if she asked, like, hey, are you stressed out right now? Like, for me, that could almost be a trigger where it's like, no, I'm not stressed. It takes the shame away from where I'm at. If you can have that shared language where it's like, we know the faster scale is not a shaming tool. It's a way. It's an awareness tool. And so that language could then help maybe alleviate some of the arguments that you could have had that you won't now have. That's our prayer.

And I think. Yeah, and I think, too, it's when you, like, when you are triggered or you're going closer to relapse, you become a little bit less aware, unless you're being intentional. And so that's why it's important to be in group, because I know that most of us will say, we do not do the faster scale every week if we're not in group or we're not actively setting aside time with our spouse. And so having that accountability so that as you start getting lower, you have somebody that can point it out like that and say what's going on? And then with couples, it helps you be able to recognize what it is you need. So, like, for me, when John used to ask me, what's wrong? I'm like, nothing. But I'm so mad, and I'm slamming doors, and I just couldn't even be aware of what was going on or what I needed. I just knew I was stressed and mad. And so now I can say, oh, I'm in exhausted. I think what I need is just to go take some time out and take a nap. And John will gladly be like, okay, let me do dinner. Let me get the kids. You know, settle for bed. You go rest. And it's because he. He can see the patterns, too. And so it's. It's easier to ask for help when you're aware of where you're at on the scale.

Totally. Well, you Already brought it up that this primarily is a tool that. And even if you look at the language like relapse is the low level, the faster scaled. So it's for someone who has, in our context, an unwanted sexual behavior that wants to stop. And so if we're going to take this tool and apply it to a betrayed spouse, what would that relapse quote unquote look like for someone who's experiencing betrayal trauma?

Yeah, well, I talk about this in the Sexual Integrity 101, so if you want to hear the conversion, you should watch that. But my first realization of how applicable this was was when John was in group first and he brought the faster scale home. And I was just kind of like snooping through his homework like I do on a regular don't do anymore. But still, apparently, no, I was unhealthy. And so, but I was looking at his tools like, what is this ministry going to be? Is it really going to help? You know, I was just like trying to study the tools and I found the faster scale. And I remember calling my sister, who was also a stay at home mom and going, oh my goodness, why does this sexual addiction tool apply so much to me? I could see the patterns. Just reading, like just being an overwhelmed housewife, like, oh, I, I'm, you know, I'm excited about this. So I stopped doing laundry. And then I'm getting mad because people are getting my way when I should be spending time with my kids. And I feel guilty for neglecting my family, but I have so much to do and I'm the only one who can do it. Like everything I say that, you know is on the faster scale. And so it was just really an eye opener that it doesn't have to be sexual. And so it's like we said before, it could be anger. When I first started, it was that whole just getting in that like, mom slump where you feel guilty because you're not as good of a mom as you can be or as good of a wife and your house is behind, yet you can't catch up even though you're making these big to do lists. And so it was just that cycle that I kept getting into and realizing that I would start things and not finish them or I would, I would be really gung ho about something, but then not be getting enough rest and healthy food and exercise. And so I quit. And so just getting a handle on all those normal life issues. And then as I did that, I realized, okay, then anger moved down as relapse. Working through the betrayal, I Had so much anger. Like we're saying, if you don't learn to communicate with your spouse, a lot of times that anger can come out on the kids you're home with all day. And then after I kind of got a handle on that, I realized, you know, okay, I'm using food to cope this summer during COVID or I'm watching too much TV during COVID It's not all Covid, but yeah. And so it kind of just like with our recovery actions plans, your relapse can change as you get healthier and more aware. Anger used to be the thing that would lead me up to something else, and then anger moved to my relapse. And then from there it was like eating and watching too much TV and spending actually started to lead me to anger. And you can kind of just. And keep growing and peeling back those onion layers.

Yeah, I think we just want to answer the question. Yeah, no, totally. I think it's just asking the question, what is something that I've committed to myself, God or others that I don't want to do anymore? So I know it's something unhealthy for me because I see how it hurts me or other people. And so I've said I don't want to go here anymore. And if I do, there's reasons. There's reasons why I chose to go down or back to that old habit pattern of behavior. And as a way to cope with life, medicate pain, deal with stress or uncomfort. And again, as we said earlier in the show, everyone does this probably to some degree and in some area of their life. And so as a betrayed spouse, if we can see how my health and my personal growth is really going to be the best thing for my family or for my kids or for my marriage, then it becomes a really valuable tool. Not because you've done something wrong, but because you're a human being. And as human beings, we all want to learn how to avoid going back to those old habits and patterns.

Yeah. And I can see it being something where. Because what came to mind when thinking about this question is taking control. Like when something feels out of control in a certain area of my life, I look for other areas of my life. I can then take control or some semblance of control, and that tends to hurt relationship. And so I think that that would maybe be my encouragement to somebody who you're in a situation that is not your fault. You a betrayed spouse, it is not your fault. It's not your behavior that brought you to this point. Yet for your health and the health of people around you, look at the ways. What. What ways am I taking control that I shouldn't have control? And that maybe is a good indicator of what relapse might be for you in your context.

That's really good. Yeah. And having. I know for me, I. It's easy, especially if there's a fresh betrayal that's so painful. It's easy. It's so easy to just do whatever you can in the moment to cope and make that pain go away. And so having people that can say, where are you at on your faster scale and what are you going to do for yourself to keep yourself healthy? I mean, it's just the brutal reality of this world that you can't control another person's behavior, whether you decided to leave your spouse or they're continuing to relapse, or they're working hard on their recovery. That's a lot of what I get from some women in group is, well, her husband's in group and he's working on his recovery and mine isn't. And that's just the brutal reality of our world. That does not matter. The tool is to help you stay as healthy as you can be, regardless of your situation.

So, Ashley, if this is such a helpful tool, and we know that in the struggling groups, like for Seven Pillars, it's introduced right away, why in some of the betrayal groups is it introduced later, like in Betrayal and Beyond? It's in chapter six, Hope for Men, chapter 11. Just thoughts about why to introduce that later in the process rather than jump in right away?

Yeah, that's. Well, like, unraveled. In Seven Pillars, you have it in the beginning, those people are coming to group for themselves, aware that there's an unwanted behavior that they want to address. So it's good to use the tool right away. With betrayed spouses, they're often coming into group just bleeding out in crisis. And so the first few months really need to be about making that spouse feel safe and making them feel stable and helping them work through that betrayal trauma. Because it can be. I mean, it'd be like going up to somebody who just like, severed a limb and being like, okay, these are the things you need to do, you know, to keep yourself from severing another limb. And it's like, let's just first address, you know, the issue of bleeding out and dying. And so that's. That's really how it is with group, is that we. We want women to come in or I haven't let any hope for men Groups, but we want betrayed spouses to come in, and we want them to feel. I feel like we want them to. We want to give them information that lets them know that they can trust our. Our groups, they can trust our process, they can trust us. And so we're starting off with that information, starting off, letting them know that this isn't their fault, that we've been there, and just helping them understand the addiction. And then once they're out of that fresh trauma and they're a little bit more stabilized, they can use more of their, you know, rational, thinking brain. And it's not in crisis mode. And so then that's a good time to introduce tools for themselves.

Yeah.

Yes.

And I. I think that there may be this, like, feels kind of bait and switchy. It's like you get me in the group, you make me feel safe, and then you tell me I have to do the work.

But.

But it's. You're not, as you're talking about. You're irrational. You're not. That could be even a triggering word. You're coming from a place that's very emotional and very raw. And I think that that causes us, anybody, to not think straight. And so you kind of have to get that. That baseline or that normal or start to feel safe again. But then realize that this impacts you in way more ways than you even realize. And that means that it also impacts the people around you. Not just that one relationship that your spouse has betrayed you in. It's also in your. Your parenting. It's also in your friendships. It's, you know, even if you're in a group, like, it's going to affect those. And so I think that that's also just to take that into consideration. This is for your benefit, but also for the benefit of those that are in your community, because as you get healthy and you use these tools, it's going to impact them as well.

Yeah. If you think about a person that has, you know, extreme flu or, you know, not, in Ashley's case, a cold, but a really, really bad cold, you've got to get the person to a place of relative health first before you would say, well, you should exercise more and let's eat a healthier diet. It's like, you need rest and antibiotics and meds and, like, let's get you to a good, stable place. And I think that's what's happening in betrayal groups. And Ashley said it so well about if someone's bleeding out, let's deal with the most important stuff first. And yes, long Term change and health and growth comes because of these healthy patterns. So we want to work on those for the good of the marriage long term or the good of the individual long term. But initially you just can't focus on everything at once. And so I think it's getting person to a stage of emotional, relational, physical stability. I'd even say that because they may not feel healthy quite at that point, but at least enough stability that they can begin incorporating some of these tools towards healthier living and relationships.

Yeah, so, and we talked about this a little bit, but what would you say, Ashley, are the advantages to a betrayed spouse using the faster scale? Like, think practically. And is it okay for them, you know, if they don't start in chapter six or chapter 11 of our betrayal groups? Is it okay for them to use it sooner than that?

Yeah, so we kind of already talked about this. We absolutely are not saying to the betrayed spouse, you are unhealthy too. So let's, you know, you have to do this homework too, because you're also unhealthy. That is not what this is about. The tool, once, once you're ready, you know, in chapter six or so, is about creating the strongest, healthiest, physically, mentally, spiritual, spiritually person you can be so that regardless of what's going on around you, you can be healthy. In response to that, you can keep yourself from being dragged down with other people. And I know that women who have gone through my betrayal and beyond groups and who have done all their homework, attended all the meetings, participated, you know, the actual going through the homework groups where they're doing everything, they'll say, they'll say that they don't feel chained to their spouse's behaviors anymore. Even if their spouse has a relapse, they don't feel like they're being dragged along with that relapse. And so if there's a separation of not that it's not still painful, but that I still have control over me spiraling into a hole because of your relapse? And so that's what we're doing, is we're just helping give people tools to be as healthy as they can be. Because life is always going to have its burns. And when I would take women through group, a lot of times I would introduce the tool early if I felt like they wanted more. Like they're like, okay, when are we going to. Sometimes you'll hear women say, when are we just going to start working on ourselves? And they're so anxious to start implementing some things, and that's fine. I mean, if somebody's ready to use the tool, or maybe their spouse is in seven pillars and their spouse is already leading it or using it, or maybe their wife isn't unraveled and so their spouses are using the tool, but they haven't been introduced to it, that's fine. I would listen to all the podcasts that we have on using the faster scale, and you can print a copy off our website and you can start using it with your spouse. And that's fine. I mean, just make sure you're still doing your other homework, right?

Yeah, yeah. I think you just want to self assess that maybe someone listening to the podcast today has never really looked at the faster scale. And after today, if you pull it out and if reading through it and looking at it, you feel interested, curious, hopeful, feeling like, you know, in Ashley's story of sharing with that gal, she's like, wow, this is. This is what I need. Well, then great, go for it. But if you hear today's episode or later, pull out the faster scale. And as you start reading through, you just feel triggered and emotional and like, okay, that's not the point of it. You're just maybe not at a point where it's going to be useful for you. So I think you can kind of self gauge even this conversation right now. If it's helping you feel a sense of empowerment, like, I can do this. This can be good. Well, jump in. But if there's a lot of triggers here, like, but it's. But the. And what. And you find yourself arguing with us, that's okay. Take a deep breath and come back around a few months later. And you might find that the, this tool feels totally different just depending on where you're at emotionally and in your relationships.

Yeah. And I would, I mean, I would say this, this tool is not developed, was not developed in order to save your relationship or your marriage. Like, the work that you both do can restore that and can save your marriage. But this is not a tool where, like, you're getting into this so that you can restore your marriage. You're getting into this so that you can be a healthy person, even though you've experienced this crazy thing in life that's been so painful. And so I think sometimes when you approach a tool like this, it's like, well, I'm doing this because I want to be with my husband or wife right now. Maybe you don't, but you probably do eventually want to be the healthiest version of yourself that you can be. So go into it knowing that this is not something that we're trying to, like, strong arm you. You know, like, we don't want you to get to it. And then curse Michael Dye for creating it because he's forcing you to restore your marriage. No, he's just giving you a tool to help you develop your health. And so I think. And I feel like we've said this already, but I just feel like it's important to say it again. This tool is about your health, not the health of your relationship, though it will be impacted. It's for your health.

Yeah, yeah, it's. I mean, my mom's doing it, or she did a Genesis group last year, and it gave us language to be able to talk to each other. And, you know, I got invited out to lunch dates where I was the subject of her commitment to change, and I was in trouble for something, and we had to work through a deal and a commitment and a plan, but it gave us really good language. And then I've used versions of this with my kids just to kind of show them where they're at and that they start somewhere and kind of drop down. And I think as you use it, you. I guess you become more aware of human behavior. I see people in my family, and I'm like, oh, they're probably just worn out, and that's why they're acting that, because you can start to see the patterns of just human behavior from going from a really healthy place to a coping place.

So, Ashley, could you give us an example for people that might be newer to this process, of what would a completed, faster scale look like and sound like for a betrayed spouse to walk through it?

The one you filled out this week. Could you just read that?

Well, look, I have my book right here.

There you go.

Yeah, this is my Betrayal beyond book. All beat up with my football shoelace for my son holding the bind together. So I did have an example. And the cool thing, the reason why I like the faster skills and doing them weekly is because it's almost. Especially if you're in group. It's almost just a natural way to hear when people are doing their faster skills. It's. It's nice to hear where your group members are at. It's like a. It's so much better than the. I'm fine. I'm tired, I'm busy. I'm mad. You know, those are not, like. Those are not answers of how was your week? That give us insight into somebody's life. And I love how real you can see into somebody else's Life, how real their answers are when they are just answering the faster scale. And so one week for me, I am not going to read every single word. But again, forgetting priorities, it would have been one week less time and energy for God, which led to worry, which led to I can't turn off my thoughts and just replaying that negative behavior that John had, or the acting out or the relapse is just spiraling, which leads me to increasing isolation. I don't want to be around people, and it causes me to be angry. It causes me to be hopeless in exhausted, which leads to shame and being lost in my own addiction. So whether that's just numbing out and watching TV or eating or shopping or whatever it may be. But the thing I like about the faster scale is that that's that week that was that week. So it could have been fresh off of a betrayal or, you know, a new discovery or something where I can then make my goals for the week based off this, off my mindset, where it's at. And okay, I'm isolating and I'm depressed. So I may need to make it a goal this week to go connect with somebody, even if I don't feel like it, that's contributing to me being in relapse. Whereas the next week it could be I'm staying up too late or I'm snooping through the computer, which is causing me to have anxiety. So it may be a plan, my commitment to change that week. Maybe I need to get out of the house, because when I'm in my house, I'm just thinking too much and it's too tempting to start snooping through things that lead nowhere and they create more anxiety. Or I get angry with my kids and it's a really vulnerable week for me. So maybe I'm going to be at the beach this week and just enjoy my kids rather than being in the house with all these triggers and reminders. And so it's cool because you can adjust your commitment to whatever it is you're struggling with for that week.

And I'm struck, as you were describing, that, that some listeners may just be like, okay, that sounds like a lot. Like, I just don't know if I'm ready for that. But what's interesting is that's already going on under the surface, whether you're aware of it or not. And so this is what's nice, is that you can't change something you're not aware that's there. And so once Ashley, anybody is aware of what's going on Then you can make the changes necessary to put you in the most healthy spot. Because maybe, honestly, I have a friend of mine who said when my wife is stressed, sometimes I just say, hey, you should go spend 40 bucks at Target. And I'm like, gosh, that sounds great. Can you send me with 40 of your dollars to go to Target? But what's cool is then you know what to do and you can put some things into place. Like for you, you talked about earlier, you're just exhausted. John will like, hey, go take a nap. Go lay down. I have dinner. I've got all this stuff. And so I just. I know it sounds like a lot, but that's the stuff that's going on underneath the surface of all of us all the time. There is not a moment in the day where things aren't going on like that. And so don't feel overwhelmed. Feel like you're just actually pointing to and naming those things that are already there.

Yeah. And it's not all bad either. I mean, this faster scale I gave you an example is from 2014, I think. And so a lot of my faster skills are highlighted top to bottom, because I just was living in this chaotic state of unknown behaviors, and I don't know why I do what I do. And just this hamster wheel. And so, like, when my friend came over, she's like, oh, my gosh, am I really messed up? I'm like, that's. That's normal for where you at. And as you start to become aware, you're going to have a lot of things highlighted. And then the more that you put these things into practice and become aware, you can prevent going down that track way earlier. And you don't have to have so many things highlighted and kind of running you without you even realizing it.

Yeah. And just to circle back to what we said about the goal of this faster scale is to find out, how do I get off of it and move back into restoration. Because self awareness all by itself is really not all that valuable to just be aware that, okay, I'm ticked off or I'm speeding up.

Right.

Like, okay, great. Glad I know that. But like, the question of, okay, now what can I do about it? How can I get back into trusting God, entering into relationships, keeping commitments, following through on something I've said. So when we recognize our patterns, and just like Ashley said, week in and week out, it will look different. But as you get more comfortable using the skill, you'll begin to see three or four probably common patterns you have that you'll start to intuitively go, oh, this is what I do. And if I don't make a choice soon to go in a different direction, the next step will be this. The next step will be blowing up at my kids because I'm ticked off. Or the next step will be causing a fight with my wife because it's just the drama's part of what I do next. And that's actually the real gift when you see if I don't make a change soon, this train just heads to worse places because the track has gone there so many times before. So making that course correction, I think is the big goal. And what can make it so encouraging as you go through it.

And when you write it down, it's cool because you can go back and look at it. And Ashley, you can go back and look at groups from 2014 or even earlier and you can start to see trends like oh, around November and December, I start to do this. Ah, interesting. And you can start planning ahead because there are going to be different times, seasons, people that you're around that are on a somewhat regular basis that then cause you to get more stressed or cause you to want to act out or do different things. And so I think that you can also start to like those patterns that you're talking about that you normally do. You can also see seasonal patterns in like the year and how things go. Okay, so if, and I can, I'm just thinking about the situation. If a betrayed spouse is going through their faster scale and wants to share it with their addicted or struggling spouse, that can potentially be a difficult conversation. And so how do we go about addressing this? How do we bring it up and what do we share to our struggling spouse if we're a betrayed spouse sharing.

Our faster scale, yeah, this can be a little challenging. And I've had, you know, women come to me that are really hurting because either their spouses are not open to sharing it or I mean just that's kind of the nature of this piece is we're all in different places in our recovery and we know that we don't want to be told to do things. We want to self discover, which is part of why this tool is so awesome. But I think that if you can approach it in a way that's really non threatening and about yourself, that I want to become more aware of how I end up in places I don't want to be. I want to make sure that I'm staying healthy as I can be regardless of what's going on in the world. Our Family, our finances. I just want to be healthy. And so if we could do this together and, you know, encourage each other and help each other that, you know, in a way like that, not like, you know, I want you to share with me every time you're getting close to relapse. Because that's not the point of this. That's, you know, the point of like the recovery action plan is that, you know, or being in group. This is really just to help us stay healthy throughout the week. So I would say approach it in a way of I want us to be healthy, I want us to have common language, I want us to have a talking point each week, a check in that's not threatening, it's predictable. And then if your spouse is not, I mean, I had to talk with somebody this morning that, you know, you might want to listen to the one sided healing podcast again, if you have a spouse that's not willing to participate in recovery and you may just have to focus on working on yourself if your spouse is unwilling or they may just need to take their own first step. Maybe they're not even in group yet and you're wanting to show them a recovery tool that they, they can't wrap their minds around because they're still in addiction. So the first step may be starting a group or starting counseling. It might be a different first step than what you took.

And I think when we go about sharing this with a spouse, you know, we want to make sure that we follow the instructions which it's really about understanding myself. We don't want to turn it into a tool to tell you what you're doing wrong. And how does he feel to go to the spouse? Like, well, I'm in ticked off because you did this and you make me feel this and you like, yeah, that's not very useful. I mean, you can choose to do that, I guess, but then the faster scale will become a bad word around your house. If you could go to your spouse saying, I'm realizing I'm in ticked off and what I'm feeling is like my voice isn't being heard or listened to. And that makes me feel like nothing's ever going to change and like I'm worthless and I know how it impacts important people is then I want to lash out and that's just going to make things worse. And the reason I do this is because I just, I feel a lack of control when I'm not listen to. I feel like I have no control. And so I just wanted to walk through this so that you kind of know what's going on at a deeper level. And, and I think if it was shared like that, and those are the I just walked through the steps 1, 2, and 3 or questions A, B and C. I think most spouses are going to react positively to that. Spouses that have a kind heart and are looking to work on the relationship because it's like, oh, wow, I, I didn't realize all that was going on, or I just knew you were mad at me, but I didn't really know what was going on. And, and I didn't know I was making you feel that way. So how could we work on that or talk about this together? And, you know, I think that is something to try as a couple if you are working together. But as Ashley was bringing up, if you're in a relationship or out of one now recently with, with a spouse that's not doing this kind of work, it may not be helpful to bring this to them right now. If they're just not responsive to it, this becomes, okay, one more thing they're trying to do to manipulate me or tell me what to do. And I think that's really unfortunate. But maybe the one opportunity, if your spouse isn't very engaged, would be to come to them and just say, hey, could I share with you a tool that's been helpful to me? And I wonder if it's the kind of tool that would help you understand why you're doing this, because I know you've told me you want to stop. You just don't know if you can. Here's the kind of tool I know that gets used by pure desire or other groups. So I think just the way you bring it to your spouse. But yeah, I mean, I think when the goal is to kind of focus on self and reveal what's going on under the surface, those that we're in relationship with can appreciate that. So I'd say go for it. And hopefully as you share where you're at and they can share with you, it really can create some, some connection in ways that maybe you haven't had before.

Let me ask this question because, I mean, would you suggest that a couple that just recently, like discovery or disclosure happened or a staggered disclosure happened, they both jump into group or one is in group fresh and then one kind of staggers behind? Do you think it's appropriate or okay to share the faster scale like starting week one of group together, or should you give it a little bit of time to create maybe some traction for both people? How Would you handle that situation?

Yeah, I definitely think that you should get a handle on it yourself and then. And then share it with each other. I know that I love watching John highlight things that I've seen all week, and I'm just waiting for him to become self. Aware. But that's not the point of it. But it is really nice to be able to have your spouse become self aware. But I mean, I think when. When people are fresh in crisis, they just need to get stable first. And that could be a couple weeks, it could be a couple months. But that's what your group is there for, to help you just break down shame, be open and vulnerable. Because if you're still in somewhat of a denial or you're just in so much trauma, it's gonna be really hard to recognize healthy patterns that you need to implement to change your behavior. But your group is really good for that. And it's a little less threatening because they're not emotionally, you know, entangled with the relationship. And so it's easier sometimes to hear. I don't know how many times John would come back and say, okay, well, one of my group members said, I should do this for my commitment, even though you've been asking me, you know, for weeks. And so it's sometimes just easier to get started that way. Not to say that you can't start right away. I think it just depends on the couple.

Yeah.

And that's what I was going to say is a couple could start using this right away if both are pursuing recovery and are aware of the benefits of it. And it underscores one of the things we've tried to say about this disclosure versus honesty process, because we do want to encourage that doing a full history, a full disclosure, is something that the struggling spouse needs some traction and some time of sobriety before they are able to do that well and accurately. But at the same time, they need to begin being truthful and honest immediately. So that means anything that's happening currently comes up that week, you need to be telling your spouse. And my wife and I found that the faster scale was a great way to do that. And I recognize that if we would meet weekly and I would share my faster scale with her, I was far less likely to end up down at the bottom of the scale because she's aware of those behaviors. And if I talk about being in speeding up or ticked off, and the further I'm getting towards relapse, the more I can see her anxiety go up, it really became a point of that motivation, like I want to stay as far away from there as possible so she can see the work I'm doing, so she can recognize I'm facing my issues sooner and not waiting till they get worse. And it actually became a really healthy thing for me because I. I just. I stayed on top of it versus if I had said nothing to my wife, you know, for six months. And then, like, now we try to use the faster scale. I think it just, it wouldn't have gotten to that point where it was that useful. So I think if you're both on board, it's a great tool. I know my wife and I used it on a weekly basis early on, and I think there's a lot of good that can come from it. So. So, yeah, for. For others, Ashley, that are in a group, but maybe their group's not using the faster scale, what would you say to them in that kind of situation? Could someone still use it on their own? Should they bring it up with the group? What are your thoughts about that?

Yeah, like we've said, anybody can use it at any time, with or without your spouse. As long as you're both willing. As long as you're ready and willing to use the tool, you can use it. Um, if you're in a group that's not using a faster scale, then you're not in a group that's using the Pure Desire group guidelines and best practices. Because every group should be using the faster scale. If it's in their book, which all Most of the or Betrayal and Beyond, Seven Pillars, Unraveled and Hope for Men all have it, so they should be using it. If you're in a group where they're not using the journal or they're not using the weekly tools, which is where you would find it, then you may want to bring that up to your leader and they may or may not be receptive to it. I mean, if it's a church group, then that's their group. If it's a group out of their home, it's their group, but they may not be aware of it. They may not be aware that it's available in the journal. And so you could share a podcast about the faster scale. You could show them in your journal what it is and say, hey, can we do this? This looks like it'd be a really useful tool. And if your leader is not open to it, then I would suggest joining one of the Pure Desire online groups where you can make sure that you're in a group that's using all the tools, because the Workbook dredges up everything. It shows us why we do what we do. It may work through some traumas or past or addictive cycles, but a lot of times it's the faster scale or like for unravel the beach trail and beyond, the journal and the weekly tools that puts feet to our recovery. And so we're making, you know, we're making that connection between why we do what we do. We're making plans to get out of it, we're having commitments, we're making phone calls. And so if you're just missing that piece in group, then you're spending a lot of time figuring out what's wrong with your past or where things went wrong or why you got stuck there. But you're not spending any time making forward motion by using the tools. And so I would highly recommend joining a Pure Desire online group. If your leader is not open to changing it, and if your leader is open to learning more about it, they are free to call us and we can walk them through it and tell them about it and teach them about it.

I think the only thing I'd add to that is just sharing your. Your experience with it, like sharing the meaningful discoveries that you found. And I think it's like a similar principle to you want to get healthy, but other people in your community don't. It's just sharing your story. Like you're not doing it in manipulative or like teaching or preaching type of way. It's just more of, you know, this week I was using the faster scale and I realized that when I get to this point, I started yelling at my kids, which then caused tension and stress, which then made me feel shame and led me to. So once you start making those connections, that's appealing to people when they hear that there's a tool out there that can make connections between all these things and actually show me why I'm doing the things that I'm doing. So I think just make sure you're not teaching, preaching, or really trying to manipulate, but just sharing your discovery.

And keep in mind the reason that Pure Desire started implementing the faster scaling groups was just finding how much more effective it was to have people check in using this tool than just what tends to be the typical accountability group. How was your week? And someone rambles for five minutes.

Yeah.

About stuff that may or may not be related to their journey, may or may not be helpful to the group. Just like, you know, like, how long are we going to go here? And so this is. If you're not using it in your group a way you could say, hey, I think this would actually help us give a lot more insight into our week and a lot less time if we would use this tool. And so if you see that value of it, then it really is. It's so insightful. And you get to know one another and go, ah, okay, I understand what's going on in your life a little better because I've, I've heard it in the lens of the current week and not just you discussing your past. So it can make that group kind of get together. How was your week check in time so much more purposeful and not just, you know, turn into an hour long where then you go, oh gosh, it's already been an hour. I guess we better get to the material.

Right.

So I use it for that reason.

You don't have a rush group or a three and a half hour group, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Well, and if you're a betrayed leader, betrayed spouse leader, it's, it's really good to be using it because then you can use your old answers from the workbook so people can see where you were and how far you've come. And you're setting an example of how to be honest and transparent in sharing your answers. But with the faster scale, I always do those current. So then they're kind of getting a picture of what I was going through, which normally they're completely shocked that that person in the workbook is me. But then my weekly faster scales are current things. And so I'm sharing current struggles with the group by using my faster scale.

Yeah. Okay, so let's wrap it up with this.

What?

And we've talked about this principle, I think, a number of times on different episodes. But for a betrayed spouse, if they find themselves sliding down the faster scale leading to that relapse or unwanted behavior that they're trying to change, what does it look like to like, what do you do? Like, how do you get off the faster scale? How do you work your way back toward restoration as a betrayed spouse?

Yeah, you definitely don't have to like climb back up the ladder. Michael Dye will say that it's a neurochemical model, but it's laid out in a behavioral pattern way for us to see. And so there is a whole neurochemical piece of it as well as our behaviors. Again, watch Sexual Integrity 101 if you want to learn more about that. And so neurochemically, we're changing too, along with our behaviors. And, and like you said Trevor, about grasping for control A lot of times we're doing things because our brain is needing something. It's trying to help us to not feel pain. And so I know for me, if John has relapsed, I can spiral pretty easy. But I have such a high pain level in my brain. I know that it takes me about four or five days to come out of that. And so when you start becoming aware, and that's just one piece, that's just in response to betrayal, but it could be something with anger. And so you start to become aware of your patterns and recognize what it is that you need to do. And so for me, I will a avoid the things that are negative coping behaviors for me. So I may decide I'm really vulnerable right now. I should not be having TV on late at night, or I should not be on Amazon prime ordering things, or, you know, I shouldn't be home alone with my thoughts. You know, I should be out with people. And so avoid the things that you know are negative coping behaviors for you would be my first. And then you look at restoration and you start doing some of the things in there. So making sure that you have people you can be accountable with and that you're doing the healthy behaviors in place. And I mean, we'll talk about three circles for a betrayed spouse, but that's also going to be a really good tool for you to use in conjunction with your faster scale, because then you can start listing out behaviors that pull you away from relapse. And so it's that 2 part of avoiding the things that are going to drag you further and only perpetuate the cycle. And then also doing the things that, you know, bring you out of relapse, which a lot of them can be found in the restoration category.

Yeah, a lot of these tools work together hand in glove. So I was going to say the same, like, make sure you listen to this full miniseries we're doing, and I've done that many times where I just pull out the faster scale and I read what's under restoration, and I say, okay, if that's where I want to be and this is where I am, what do I need to do to get back there? And it sometimes might be as simple as take five minutes to take deep breaths and meditate on a truth of scripture. Maybe it's going for a walk. A lot of times it's making a phone call to a group member and just sharing where you're at. But I think that's the most common strategy for me is to make a call and make A plan to make a call and make a plan. So on the call I say, hey, I'm realizing I'm down and ticked off. I'm just, I'm stuck in negative thoughts and I just, I can't get out of it. And I'm in black and white thinking. And so here's what I feel like I need to do. So I'll share that plan with the person I'm talking to. You know, say I'm, I'm taking time to make this call right now. And when I'm done making the call, I'm just, I'm going to take a walk and clear my head and I'm going to go back to my job just remembering that I'm there because God, God made me. God called me and, and start with a fresh perspective so that that call and a plan can be a huge game changer. Yeah.

And I think too, the person who's on the phone can help you develop that plan because maybe you don't have it. Like, I don't really know my way out. But if you've developed this system or flow where you're making phone calls every week, you know that you can ask questions like, okay, cool, I see that you're feeling that way and it makes sense. What are you going to do now to move forward? So I think that that is also something that happens in a safe group, in a pure desire group. That's why it's so important, is that, yeah, you have people who you can call, but also who have the shared language and are on the same journey you are and can just go hand in hand in that way.

Yeah. And if you have a relapse that's, you know, dangerous to yourself, like suicidal thoughts or, you know, drinking and driving, I mean, something that could put you or somebody else in harm. It's. It's really important that you even just make the first step. So you may not have the plan to get out of relapse. That's the whole plan. But you may just have one step that's calling somebody that then knows how to hold your hand and saying, next step is this, next step is this. And so at least have one thing that you can do. And so for me, when I'm in a really bad place with relapse, and it's crazy because once you learn how to live outside of relapse, when you go back there, you're kind of shocked that you were able to spend so much time there before you started becoming aware. And so I know for me it could just be as simple as texting my one or two friends that know everything about me and saying I'm in a bad place or I'm in relapse, and then they kind of pick it up from there. Not that they're responsible for my recovery, but if I'm so bad that that's all I can do, I have my people that already know that means we need to help her because her brain is jacked.

Yep. Yeah. Ashley's brain is jacked. There it is. Okay. Yeah. I think the reason why, again, we're doing this series is because we want betrayed spouses, people who are in relationships who've experienced betrayal trauma, that there are tools to use for your personal health, your personal health and your healing. And so the faster scale is obviously a great tool. As we've talked about it. The reason we talk about it so often on the podcast is because of how powerful and meaningful it can be if you use it. And something that came up as we were talking today, it's the consistency of using it that's going to help you as well. So we just make sure that you use this tool and use it on the regular basis. Ashley, thanks for being with us. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you are a subscriber, please write a review. It helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.