192 - Tools For Betrayal: Commitment To Change & Double Bind

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Happy day, listener. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 192 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

You've got mail.

Oh, my wife loves that movie. But maybe you're not talking about the movie. Maybe you're just talking about aol.

Yeah, it was made popular by AOL having a talking voice that would tell you when you had mail. And like, I think in the early days of the Internet, it was so infrequent to get email that that was like, kind of a highlight. Can you imagine today now, like, yeah, 80 times. Yeah. It would take us all about 20 seconds to disable that feature for any new device.

Oh, gosh. So, yeah, I mean, but we all.

I do agree, though, I love that movie. It's a great day to day.

It is a good. It's a good movie. Okay, so we are continuing our series on Tools for Betrayal. And week two, we had Jen Howey on with us, and we talked about the commitment to change in doublebind.

Yes, yes, we did. You know, and when you get mail, Trevor, sometimes it's physical mail, physical mail, email too. The same is true that sometimes it's interesting personal stuff, you know, a card from someone or a note that you want to read. And a lot of times it's just junk and spam and stuff you got to wade through and get rid of. And I think for a lot of spouses that are going through group or any kind of recovery steps that they have to take to address their own issues can feel like wading through some hard stuff, some junk. It's like, I don't really like doing this. I like the conversations in group. You know, they like the relationships they're building. But. But the tools can feel kind of like work in that sense of, this isn't my problem. Why do I have to do the work? And so what I hope is that today's podcast and Jen does a great job, I think making these tools really practical, doable, applicable, that it helps someone maybe shift their focus from these tools feeling like work or junk to more like a neat thing you got in them. Be like, oh, this is really helpful. This is helping me in my recovery. And I think that's the goal for today as we talk about a couple more tools.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, as Nick said, Jen did a great job. We're really thankful for our Time with her. A couple things before we get to it. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms now, including Audible. And if you could give us a review on any of those platforms, that's super helpful. And then also make sure to follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagramuredesirepdmi. Also search. These full episodes now are up on YouTube. Just search pure Desire Ministries. And now, here is our conversation with Jen Howey on tools for betrayal, Commitment to change, and double bind. Jen Howey, welcome back.

Thanks, Trevor.

Windsor.

Okay, don't be weird about it. I was like excited to have Jen.

And then now I'm not honestly just focused on saying it. Right. Because sometimes when, when I say Windsor, you get all over me and you're like, don't do that. So I was.

I'll be honest, I cannot remember a single time where you've said my last name like that. Because we probably wouldn't be friends.

Here we are.

Yeah. Okay. All right.

Weird start.

Okay, so we can start over.

Boring start. Here we go.

All right, so we are in week two of Tools for Betrayal series. We're talking about the tools betrayed spouses can and should use in their healing journey. And today we're going to talk about. It's really one tool that's like two tools. It's commitment to change and double bind.

Yes.

So, Jen, from your experience, just let's recap, people. What is a commitment to change and what is a double bind?

Okay, so a double bind is a difficult place where you find yourself in a lose, lose situation. So it's where you feel like you just can't win. And then a commitment to change is where you're really looking at where you over function or where you under function. And then you move towards making a healthier choice for yourself. And also commitment. Change always involves an emotional cost of some sort.

Yeah. Or a double bind. Right.

Yeah. And to break it down, the commitment to change is saying, how can I break down this big iceberg of a thing I'm working on, whether it's restoring my marriage, working on getting through betrayal trauma, learning to trust again. I mean, those feel like really big things that take a long time. So how do I work on it? Well, that's what a commitment to change can function as. To say, okay, this week what I need to do is, you know, not lose my temper with my kids or practice better eating habits or work on expressing my feelings better when I'm talking to my spouse. Whatever. It is like breaking it down a week at a Time. And the double bind is probably the tool we get the most questions about. People say they don't understand it. And one of the things I've realized, I think, that people miss is in the double bind, you have probably chosen one of your two options.

Yes, yes.

The double bind is just to see what the other option could have been. So, for example, if we're procrastinating and procrastination leads to heightened anxiety and pressure at work, maybe that's what we chose. But the other side of the double bind, there's a piece of silver there.

Why is there a spoon on the table?

Stir my hot chocolate. Maybe the other side of the double bind would be, I have to face a hard project where I might fear failure or not know how to do it. That's the other side. So maybe I chose the procrastination route. So it doesn't mean there's two things you're choosing between currently. It may be looking back and going, when I made a poor choice this week, why didn't I make the other choice? What was my other option? And to see how the two things were both difficult and why we maybe chose the easy way out versus doing something harder.

And I think that that's true for, like, across the board. In any arena or domain of life, we're always facing double binds. So it doesn't have to be like life shattering earth altering all of this stuff. It could just be there is a decision on either end that's going to cost me something and that would make me not want to necessarily make that decision or that direction.

Yeah, both. Both include a fear. You're dealing with a fear of something and so identifying what that is and choosing which fear to move toward and wrestle with and work out.

Yeah.

Yeah. As a part of that.

Yeah. So as we're focusing on these tools for the betrayed spouse, we've done quite a few podcasts that talk about those that are struggling and how you would use it as part of a group like Seven Pillars or Unraveled for Women. But what about on that side of the betrayed spouse who's in Betrayal and Beyond or maybe hope for, and they're feeling like, well, it's really not my problem that needs to change. I'm just the innocent bystander that got hurt by your addiction. What would it look like for that spouse to make a commitment to change and to identify double binds in their life? Could you give some examples of what betrayed spouses might identify as their commitments and their double binds?

Sure. Initially, a commitment to change can be something as simple as learning how to give thanks for the circumstances that you're even currently in.

Right?

So, I mean, that's. That's a godly principle that he gives us. To give thanks, to be grateful in all things, you know, so working through giving thanks. I think giving thanks is often an antidote to contempt or pain. So that's a piece that you could simply do from the very beginning. If you're in the beginning phases and haven't done some of the deeper dives. You know, I'm rehearsing the promises that God's given you. When we don't. When we feel like promises have been broken, remember the promises that God has given to us. So rehearsing things like that and then, of course, calling your support people is a great place to start. And then. And then, of course, working out the double bind that we're here actually talking about today. You know, those are some good places to start with commitment to change. For me, the double bind piece, the way. What that looked like and still does to this day, is telling my husband one of the double buns I had and still have is that choosing how to communicate to him the pain I experience when. When he acts or doesn't act a certain way. This is a huge one. This is. A lot of women actually really, really wrestle with this. Like, so I want to tell my husband that what the painful outcome of what he does, how that affects me. But I risk driving him deeper into shame. And then I'm afraid that he's gonna maybe relapse or walk or move towards a coping mechanism that isn't necessarily healthy. So now I'm in this double bind. Like, do I tell him how the pain I'm experiencing that could have that consequence? Or if I don't say something, then I'm at risk for not being fully known and I To be seen. I want to be heard. I want to be fully known. I want him to have empathy for where I am and where I'm coming from. So now in this double bind, do I tell him what I'm experiencing, or do I not? Because there's essentially a risk and a fear, an emotion, and all those things that I have to wrestle with. So those have looked. That's kind of what it looked like in the beginning for Dan and I when working out the difference between a commitment to change and a double bind. And then that shifts a little bit more when you get into the work. I think in betrayal and beyond, that probably doesn't come until chapter seven or so so it's a while before we get into that. And that looks a little bit different later on.

Yeah. And I'm thinking, too, for the betrayed spouses that might be listening, that are early on or maybe even are not in group or thinking about group for the first time, even joining a group for betrayal trauma is a double bind.

Right.

Even the fact. Because on one end, it's like, I could just sit in this and not have anything that might bring about that health or that stability or help me normalize my situation or understand what's going on. But then on the other end, it's like, well, I didn't do this. And I have to go through. Because we hear that all the time. We do is why do I need group? Why do I need to go in and get my own healing? Because that will bring work, a ton of work. And what's interesting is when we step into group, there's also that risk of, like, I'm going to realize there are things about me that are not okay and that I need to work on. And it could be a number of things. It could be you have your own numbing agents that you use. It could be maybe codependency as a part of your life. It could be victim mindset. I mean, there's so many different things that can come from that. And that's fearful, too. Even though it's good, it still is really scary because I know I'm going to have to feel that stuff in order to change it. So even coming to the idea of joining a betrayal group is a double bind by itself.

Yeah.

Well, and it's seeing what my options are and what's the best possible outcome of making. Making the right choice or the healthier choice? If people listen to the previous episode on the faster scale, they'll know that the double bind and the commitment to change really are meant to come out of that faster scale. So if you didn't listen to that episode, go back real quick, catch up. Because as we identify what our relapse is or the relapses that we're most aware of, even if we're the betrayed spouse, that connects then to our commitment to change. Because a commitment to change is really meant to be. What's the primary thing you need to do this week to avoid relapse, to avoid going back to that place. So if you're the betrayed spouse and your relapse is exploding at your kids in anger or, you know, binge eating while all the kids are at school, or, you know, overspending on Amazon, because you just make all these impulse purchases, like, whatever it is, if you see that's unhealthy, I don't want to go back there. But this week I might be tempted to. So what commitment do I need to make to not reenact that relapse? Or what's my most common relapse? So when you can actually connect it to things, you're also trying to change, because that's the value. If your spouse is in group, that's what's valuable for them too, is that we're not just making random, oh, I'd like to be healthier in this way this week. I mean, a commitment to change can work for that, but that's not really going to connect to the deep transformation we want to make. The transformation is related to our recovery journey. So if. If I could say, like, for my wife's example, I know her relapse would probably have been something as basic as she shuts down. That's her response to trauma is just like avoidance. And I'm just not going to think about it. I'm going to move on and live my life well. That would keep her from healing. It would keep us from talking. We wouldn't be able to connect. So she may have to choose a commitment to change, as simple as, I'm going to do my homework this week. Because for her, that was a choice to face the pain, a choice to lean into the trauma that I had caused and the fear. And so the way those work together for her, though, I think was helpful to see that here's my temptation, here's my go to. To avoid all this. So here's what I'll need to do instead. And when you can begin to see that connection, that's where I think the tools really become powerful in working together.

Yeah. So when it comes to commitment to change and double bind, how does that relate to the phone calls that we make? Right. We talk about this. We've had a lot of episodes. We've had a lot of conversations around the importance of phone calls in group. So a betrayed spouse making phone calls. How do the commitment to change and the double bind relate to those phone calls?

You know, a lot of women really get frustrated with having to make phone calls, like, well, why do I need to do it? I'm not the one that really needs to be held accountable for anything. And it's not so much about accountability, but really more about stepping out of isolation and into community, stepping out of unhealthy thinking and surrounding ourselves with others. Who help us heal. And, you know, when we process with others, we process differently. And especially when we process out loud, you know, we need people in our lives who are going to speak truth to us. And it's through those truth tellers that we really realize how far we've come and really are reminded about where we're going. So those phone calls aren't. They're not a punishment. They're not meant to be a punishment. They're meant to be kind of a lifesaver and a. What's that thing when you throw out to people when they're in the water and they're drowning? A life preserver. Life preserver. That's the word.

Usually. Life preserver.

Oh, just kidding. Okay.

I'm thinking specifically of those round things that I don't know, that I've ever even seen anyone ever use, probably because I've never been in the situation to see that. But not in that situation, but in a betrayal and beyond situation, most definitely. You know, those are the things that we. That we throw out to each other. And phone calls can really, really be that lifeline that we need to remember and to be challenged and also to experience quite a bit of hope in moving forward. So that's why we make the phone calls. It's really to. In community with others because Christ has created us to heal in community.

Totally.

Yeah. I really appreciate the way you brought in that word isolation, because I think that is the enemy's tactic. Whether you are the betrayed or the addict, that that isolation, the shame that can build the sense of being alone. That's just where the enemy does his work and where our old self can beat us up. But when we break isolation through a phone call, we enter into truth, we enter into light, we enter into grace. And so at times it may be being selective about who we call, that the person we call is that kind of truth teller, grace giver, affirming. And if you find someone you're calling is just. They're so stuck that calling them just breeds more negativity. You know, it's okay to be selective about who you choose to call, because that's a reminder too. The phone calls are for you and for you to process and face your day, not to check in or check up on them. And so make sure you're calling people that do that for you, that when you call, you feel like, man, I just. I broke out of that place I was in that I was listening to some shame or some lies about my worth, value and identity, believing that my spouse's struggle means I am something. And, yeah, just I think breaking isolation is such a key thought and term that I wanted to really emphasize that.

Yeah. And those phone calls when. When you're talking about your commitment to change, it's something that you've identified that you want to change in order for your health to progress. And so it's not something like you're saying that someone's checking in. It's almost like I'm calling to report, like, hey, here's how I'm doing. And with the double bind, I'm going through genesis process right now. Michael Dye, in that talks about living in health is a. Consistently, it's being consistent in addressing the double binds in your life. That's how you live in health. And so I think that that is important for a betrayed spouse and a struggling spouse, that we have to identify those double binds and then address them. We can't just let them go untouched. And I think that when you invite, and this is what I've experienced, when you invite someone in to your inner world, to what's going on, if they love you and care about you, they don't want you to stay there. They want to help you progress and help you move. And so if I'm sharing a double bind and someone can hear the tension that I'm struggling with, they want to help me. So they'll ask questions or they'll share their experience. You know, the friends who, like, know the process a little bit more won't teach or tell me what to do, but will help me kind of find that avenue of where health is for me.

Yeah. Actually, I was going to touch in on that, too. Reach out to your good question askers, because those are the ones that are probably going to bring the most value to the healing process. Or the people who ask you the. And reach out to your tough question askers. Yeah, the ones that make you slightly uncomfortable and make you dig a little bit deeper.

Shut up. I don't want to answer, like, if you want to stay in isolation, unhealth, don't call those people.

Right, right. Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

So it can be easy to see why our spouse needs to change if they're the ones struggling, if they've been an addict. But when it comes to, like, me changing, that can be more of a question like, whoa, whoa. It's not my issue that we got into this. So if I'm not the addict, why would a betrayed spouse make a commitment to change? Talk a little bit about that.

Oh, my goodness. Because the addict isn't the only person who's being transformed. We are too.

Say that again. Say that again. That's good.

The addict is not the only person who is being transformed. We are in. We are being transformed in this process. And quite honestly, when we enter into that, it can actually be quite empowering. So when we are in a. In a. In a space where we don't get to choose our circumstances, we didn't bring ourselves here. But when we enter into a commitment to change, we now have the authority to speak into our own lives and make changes that benefit us, changes that help me become the best version of myself. So to me, rather than looking at a commitment to change again as a negative, something that has to be changed because I'm faulty in this area, we can look at a commitment to change as something that empowers us to do something with a set of circumstances that we otherwise did not necessarily have control over. So it helps me live my life off of my values rather than my emotions, because I am committing to identifying the things that keep me from living out that healthier version of myself.

Yeah, what's coming to mind right now is just that maybe you're in the situation where your spouse is addicted to porn or has had affairs or they have betrayed you and you're feeling that trauma. It may be on different levels, but you're gonna experience betrayal at another point in your life. And so I think that there is this element of the future of your life and your relationships, whether it's this marriage, if it's restored or not, or any other relationship outside of that. These are tools, and this is a process that will help you be able to manage those feelings better again. Even as I say that, I can hear someone who's in this season just like, well, it's not about me. It's not my health. I'm not here. Yes, you're right. But if we don't work on this stuff, if we don't find healing here, this stuff's gonna stick around. It's like, I think about this a lot, that the wounds that we have, if they don't go addressed, if you don't treat the wound and address the wound, then you're just going to walk around and it's going to get bumped into by everything in your life, and it's going to impact so much more than just this one relationship. So I hope the listener is hearing me. I'm trying to just say that there are things that are far reaching in importance outside of this current context, that these tools can help you manage the betrayals of life.

And you've used the illustration, Trevor, of the car accident that if, if we have been through betrayal because of our spouse, it's a traumatic event that we were both involved in and we weren't the driver and it wasn't our fault, but we may have gotten hurt, we may have trust issues, anger issues, wounds, places that, like you said, are unhealed. And if, if our spouse goes through physical therapy and gets healthy after that accident, we're like, well, the accident wasn't my fault, so I'm not going to get better. You know, now we've got forever a limp or things that just haven't been treated. So just because it's not your fault doesn't mean it didn't create issues that you're going to need to recover from. And part of that recovery is looking at, okay, what do I need to work on this week? What could I break down? And maybe it's something as simple. And I don't mean to say that gratitude is easy, but that's a simple commitment that you brought up, Jen, to say this week. I'm just going to look every day to say, how could I find gratitude, thankfulness for my situation? Because that's a perspective shift that long term can make a huge difference. So it's, it's just a willingness to say, I want to be a healthy, growing person and that means I've got steps to take. Whether it's my fault or not really doesn't impact the reality that I have steps to take.

Right.

Even as you said that, and Jen, I know you said this, that being grateful for your situation, maybe you're not grateful for your situation, but you're grateful for one thing in your life. I think there can be a difference that my current context, life could be bad on a number of places. But even something as like, I'm grateful I have a car that can drive me to work every day. I'm grateful for gas money, I'm grateful for coffee. Praise Jesus for coffee. It could be anything like that. So I think it's okay to make that distinction.

I think we simplify gratitude way too much and underestimate the power that it has.

Yeah, I know. Conviction. As I'm listening to this, I need to be more grateful. Okay, so we talked about this in the last episode as well with sharing the faster scale. But if we've got a commitment to change as a betrayed spouse, that potentially could be awkward or uncomfortable for both spouses if it's shared and so should we share it. And how do we go about that with our struggling spouse?

Well, I think it on. Depends. Depends on the spouse and how safe your spouse is. Emotionally safe that person is. Because the commitment to change, again, you know, is something that we're working towards personally in my relationship with Dan. Yeah, we share with each other, but because we value being fully known by one another. But also all of that being said, he. We don't. We're not each other's accountability person. So when we share our commitment to change, it's about simply being known. And we don't get to comment on each other's commitment to change. We don't get to police it. We don't get to check in on it. We. We bring it to one another because it's an effort and a step towards moving towards vulnerability and transparency and intimacy with one another. So. But he's also stated that. That when I.

When.

Especially in the beginning, that when I was committing to changing myself, it really gave him this sense that he wasn't alone in a healing process, that he wasn't the only one that had stuff to do. Now, keep in mind, when we entered this process, I truly felt like he was the only one that had stuff to do because he's the only one who had cheated. So clearly he was the only one that had work to do. And as the Lord worked on my heart and started to reveal to me some things that needed to be changed in my own life, not just in relationship to my husband and relationship to Christ himself and to how I relate to others, I've learned that there's. There was plenty of growth that God wanted to do in me, and I wanted him to do that in me as well. So I shared that with Dan. And as a result, it ended up really becoming a connecting point where we got to see into each other's inner lives, into our inner thoughts. And it's. I really feel like it's where true intimacy started to begin between he and.

I. Yeah, I think every relationship is different too. And so you have to analyze where you're at if part of the issues that your spouse is recovering from is being very controlling, narcissistic, manipulative, sharing a commitment to change could be an unhealthy or unwise thing to do because it almost gives them a way to use that to their advantage. So if you have any fears like that, and I'm not saying wait till your spouse is perfect before you share a commitment to change, but to just be aware of where you're at in Your relationship. What kind of communication do you have with one another? Because there are relationships where I think it can go really well, that if you want to share that commitment. I know both my wife and I have had times where we've said something like, hey, this week my commitment is about spending quality time with the kids. And so if you see me spending time on my phone when I could be with the kids who are in the same room, I'm asking you to just say this phrase or mention something. Now, I've invited them to do that. So I think that might be. The important thing is if you realize, hey, here's one. That it's not necessarily about my spouse. I'm not making them my accountability partner, but I can invite their help. You've given your spouse permission. I have to be careful. Then if they follow up on that, you don't get irritated at them.

Right.

But I think that is back to the word you used, empowering. When couples can say to each other, here's what I'm working on, here's why, and here's how I think you can help. Here's how you could support me, encourage me.

Yeah.

Because we by nature want to help and support our spouse. And when we're given a practical, tangible way how to do that, I think even the struggling spouse can respond well to it. Like you said about Dan, like, yeah, that'd be great. I really appreciate what you're doing. And then it motivates them to do some of their work as well.

Yeah. And I mean, if you know the double binds that people are facing and they're sharing that, your ability to minister to them becomes exponential. Like, if I don't know what's going on, I don't know what struggle you're facing or tension you're facing, then I mean, I don't exactly know what's going on. Like, I'm just addressing what's going on. Like, outside what I can see how you're acting, you know, the expressions that you're making. But if you're able to share that double bind and the commitment to change that's tied to it, my ability to, number one, be empathetic to you increases. And that doesn't mean that it's your job to help me be empathetic. I'm just saying that if you share what's going on, I know a lot more and can then act on what I know. And I mean, because what you were saying, I think of the example, I want to spend more time, like, if my wife came to Me and said, I want to spend more time with the kids, then maybe I'm the one who makes dinner or cleans up after or does anything around the house to clear up the space. We went through that study, Vertical Marriage, and I know it was talking about sex, but the idea of helping carry some of the suitcases, specifically that women, they have all these suitcases where men just carry one bag the whole time. And so it's that idea of, how can I take some of the suitcases off your plate so that you can do what it is that you want to do or makes you a healthier version of yourself. So I think that it helps me, as even a struggling spouse or a supporting spouse, be able to be more empathetic and then find creative ways to help you get to that point.

Yeah, I think you guys hit the nail on the head. You're making a plan. There are parameters around it. But the cool thing about what you're saying also is that it's my commitment to change. So I set the parameter. I share that parameter. I give you verbiage on how to set. Speak back to me. And when. When I've given you permission to speak into it. You know, I've. I'm telling you, when I. When I do this, this is. This is the phrase I need to hear. So it's really the only thing you're. What you're doing is you're inviting someone into something, but because you're giving them safe parameters, it allows them to speak into it. Because, you know, this doesn't work super well. Like, I've had a lot of health goals and especially when it comes to food, and I've given Dan permission to speak into it, and I even gave him the words to speak into it, and he said, stop it. Like, right, right. Do you really want to put that? You know, do you really want to eat that? You know, And I'm just like, sure, yeah. And that's. I learned very quickly that I didn't like that. And so you have to sometimes re. You know, change things around a little.

Bit, because then he's like, you told me to say these.

You told me it was okay.

You're sick of me for saying these words.

Right.

And so, you know, there has to be room for flexibility in not getting it.

That's good.

Getting it. Right. And there has to be rules around or, you know, conversations around. Okay, well, when we don't execute this really well, how do we handle that? Because I did give him permission, and then I got all wounded when. After I gave him permission and decided that maybe I should approach this a little bit differently next time. It's all a learning process.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, it is. And I think remembering whose commitment to change it is for the spouse, like, well, hey, if that's their commitment, it's not my job to badge them about it, ask about it. Like, in a commitment to change, it's my job to come to you when I want help. It's my job to bring it up to you when I'm needing input. So if you keep that in mind, that helps. We kind of alluded to this a little bit already, Jen, but how do all of these tools kind of work together in terms of the betrayed spouse using the commitment to change a faster scale? Phone calls. It's like, even maybe some spouse is listening right now. It's like, boy, it feels like a lot of work. So what is the purpose and the benefit of all this for the betrayed spouse?

It is a lot of work, but it's worth it. It's work that's worth it. Well, you know, the whole point of really, of all this really, is to have awareness. You know, if there's one thing I can control in my life, it's how I respond to something. And being aware is really how we do that. And so I wanna approach my life by responding and not reacting. So when I do that, I go back to what I said before, that now I'm living my life based on my values, right. When I can respond to something rather than react, I can make decisions based on the things that I value and respond to those. Otherwise, I'm living off my emotions. And that's where my reactions come in. So really, the faster scale is about awareness, the double bind. Also, awareness, the commitment to change is keeping a cognitive awareness of the changes we do want to make. So if we really want to, if we want to live life responding rather than reacting, awareness is absolutely 100% the best way to do that. And each of these tools keeps us in that awareness.

Yeah. And I think anybody who uses these tools, it trains you to tie your behaviors to the feelings, the thoughts, the beliefs about yourself and to understand that because we talked about this the last episode too, is that just because you made it all the way to exhausted on the faster scale doesn't mean you had a worse week than someone who's in forgetting priorities. It just means life happens. And so I think it helps us see ourselves on the scale that life just moves and flows and it has this rhythm, but it also helps Me in that rhythm to identify. Okay, when I feel this way. This is what I. This is the double bind I tend to experience because of this situation. And in that double bind, I tend to choose this, I want to change that. And so what I can do is I can back up, look at that experience. Okay, what is it in that experience that's causing this double bind? So for me, I'm actually going to the source of everything rather than just like, okay, well, I just need to do something different. It's like, well, yes, but like, let's make sure that that thing that you're doing is different. That commitment to change is connected to the double bind you're actually facing, which then is addressing the actual wound or problem that you have. And so I think that it trains our brain to think that way.

Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about how all these work together. And to me, it's staying actively engaged in our own recovery because recovery is, as you said, it's not easy and it's a process, but we can make it a much, much longer process by ignoring it for a few weeks and then coming back to something and relearning again and going, oh, yeah, I can't do that. That's not helpful for me. And then we're just kind of going through the motions a lot and not really moving forward. I think, though, when we get into these weekly rhythms, they really can become sustainable change. And it's a little bit the difference between, like saying, well, my goal for 2021 is to lose 10 pounds versus someone who joins Weight Watchers. Now, I'm not trying to make an ad for Weight Watchers, but I know in that program there's weekly weigh ins, there's the food you can buy, there's group meeting. Like, there's a whole system that they engage people in that leads to their change. Now, the downfall I would see is that once you're out of their system, you can revert right back to your old ways because they didn't become your normal. This to me is these tools that keep you engaged and they become your normal. Just analyzing each week, where am I at, what's my low moment? And when I see where that is, what am I working on, how am I making it better? And who can I connect with? Who can I engage with? That that's just staying engaged in my own recovery and that can become a normal for the course of your life and not just be well for a few months. I really focused on it and then I kind of lost track and I'm Back where I started.

It doesn't have to be the season of life. You're like, man, that was awesome. You remember that? It's like, you don't. It can be your current the whole time, believe it or not. Which, even as I say, that takes a lot of work. You even said these tools take a lot of work. It does. But as Nick said, it becomes a rhythm and almost becomes a second nature the more that you do.

Yeah. You have. You kind of create sort of a muscle memory, a mental muscle memory by using these tools. And you become stronger and faster and more accurate with them. And so then it becomes something that it's almost hard not to do life almost not hard. It's almost hard to do life without them because they've become such a great way to move past the things that are getting us stuck. Right.

And then your community starts to use it, and then you're just in a culture all the time. I mean, we work at Pure Desire. This is literally the culture we live in. You know what I mean?

How many times do I come into your office and saying, I have a belief system here.

This is where I'm at. Tell me what's like. Tell me where I'm wrong in my thinking.

Here's where.

Yeah. And that then becomes something where. When we know that we're not using these tools or our recovery isn't as active or I don't feel as locked in as I want to be, then I can just go over to the person who's in my community and say, hey, this is where I'm at. Help me. They can be like, oh, yeah, well, you remember. And then shared language and experience then becomes a thing that helps us all, which builds trust. Totally. And health and. I'm just kidding. Okay, so what if. And this is a really good question for anybody in group, but for a betrayed spouse, they set a commitment to change. They share it with their group. They've invited them in to help, you know, as. Help facilitate this as you go. What if we don't succeed at that week's commitment to change?

Quit. Throw in the towel. Raise your hand.

Commitment to never change.

I think we have to be careful to not go too black and white.

But it's not a grading system. It isn't.

It's a learning system. So if you've learned something from it, that is so value. That is so valuable. So just like with any mistake that we make or failing that we have, am I learning something about what I believe? Am I learning something about how I'm Wired and what I think am I learning something about how I relate to others? There's a lot to learn. When my current commitment to change isn't as effective as I'd hoped it would have been. It could be simply that I put unrealistic expectations and I need to break down my, you know, the. Just break it down differently and put out realistic goals for those commitments to change.

Yeah. I think sometimes we learn as much from a commitment that we aren't able to keep as the ones we do because you have the opportunity to sit back and analyze, why didn't this work for me? What was it? Maybe we didn't recognize an emotion we were going to have to face. A fear of talking to someone or a fear of doing something new. Maybe we weren't specific enough about when we were going to accomplish the task or the goal. Or maybe we were too specific that we said it's going to happen only at this time and we didn't have the flexibility to put it somewhere else. There's just a lot of things we can look into and go, oh, okay, this, this. Actually I learned something like you're saying, Jen, I learned something new about myself and why I didn't. And that's the goal, I think, is to learn and grow and continue in recovery, not to just have these check marks every week. Oh, did it, did it, did it? Because that's just. Can become a performance mentality. I'm going to perform my way into hell. It's about learning and growing. And that is going to be by nature, it involves hits and misses. That's how we learn and grow and recover.

Yeah. And like two words, tweak it. Like that's maybe you didn't do it this week. Tweak it. I mean, just make a small change. And maybe, you know, as you're talking about, maybe instead of trying to do your commitment to change at one specific time, just say in this window, I'm going to do it. Or I mean, you can come up with plenty of them, but just tweak it. And I think one of the things too, because I'm thinking about our first episode with Bob Vandermeer. It was episode five. I'll just. I remember it because he said damned if you do and damned if you don't because that's what a double bind is. But he talked about the idea of that realistic where if I've never woken up at 5am and I want to read my Bible this week, don't say I want to get up at 5am and read my Bible. Like, he's like, don't do that. And it's so true. Because we need to look at our daily rhythms and fit our commitment to change into that. So for me, when I first started group, and I still don't feel like I have a lot of time to make phone calls. So I make phone calls when I'm in the car and I have a headset. Everyone calm down. Right. But I do it. I take advantage of the time in my schedule that I have, and I just repurpose that for my own health. And so maybe that's what it is. Maybe you're just not looking at where this can already fit into our current schedule. And so I think that that's one thing. If you're not successful, maybe just look at for another window or another perspective on how this could fit into my rhythm.

Yeah. We just recently did you know, it's January. Nowhere. In February now It's close enough.

It's coming out in March.

All right. So back in January, this whole part. Right. Back in January, Dan and I set up some health goals, some spiritual goals, and all these different goals.

Non drinking goals.

We did non drinking goals. Yes. And dry January.

You've never heard of this, Nick? Yeah, apparently Nick's January wasn't dry. Okay, here we go.

Didn't know that was a thing.

Didn't know it needed to be a thing.

Yeah. And I've just made this a thing. I'm sorry.

But Dan and I had set some goals to increase our exercise goals, and we shared. We shared our commitment to change with Nick for the month of February. So the goal was set in January. February comes around. Our goal is to improve on our mileage. So we've given Nick permission to speak.

To the professional runner.

I don't know if they gave me permission. I just like running. So I was curious. Made me interested.

We invited you into the conversation. And so Dan and I did our first day in February, and our miles were much longer than we anticipated them to be.

In full transparency.

Full transparency. And Nick says, so how's it going? Dan and I have not got back on the treadmill since we set that initial mile. And so here we are now with this commitment to change and thinking it was going to be a great thing. And we'll be good because Nick will not hold us accountable. But Nick will at least ask about it. So we've told someone. And so Nick comes in the office today. So how is that going? You know, you do Big Gulp and you're like. And so what Dan and I are realizing is that we actually through our conversation with Nick, asking right questions is that we need to break down specifically how we're going to execute it. And we hadn't done that. We just set this arbitrary goal with no real strategy.

I'm gonna run a marathon.

Okay, great.

How are you gonna get there?

Yeah, yeah. And so we realized today that we have to. There are some daily commitments that we need to make and at the very minimum, weekly commitments we need to make through the month of February to really to execute that commitment to change. And this is where community is so good for one another. And then reaching out to those who enjoy actually talking about it was very helpful too, which is why they're not.

Talking to me about it.

I think it's important to recognize we can all do that with our commitment to change. They're just basically aspirational goals. Get closer to God, be a less angry person, engage more with my spouse. All great things, but like, what will you do? How will you know? So breaking it down sometimes to say, here's one small thing. If like, let's say your goal is to be to learn to rebuild trust with your spouse and you just say, I'm not going to check their phone at night to see who they texted because we have a system, here's how they communicate with me. And that would be, that's more specific and tangible, like, okay, we can work on this. So Jen, as you think about that commitment to change and these rhythms we're talking about, when is a good time or the best time for someone to make a commitment to change? And once you've made it for the week, should we ever tweak it or change it or if it's not going well, just wait for a new week to come and set a new commitment when the next week starts.

Yeah, I've had a lot of people do that and to me that's more of a performance based thinking.

You check in, I failed this week, so I'll just wait till next year.

Or start over, right? Yeah. They don't change it. And it's week after week after week, it's the same commitment to change, which is really just a thought about changing, not really a commitment to changing. You know, I like it.

A thought about changing. Here's my thought about changing.

This week I commanded to think about changing, right?

Exactly. But if we're going to create new neural pathways in our brain, right. We have to put something into place that we're willing to actually move towards. So otherwise we're just slipping into behavior modification. And that's why the faster scale double binded commitment to change really work cohesively with one another because that awareness piece leads you to that deeper level of awareness. So thoughts and beliefs create emotions that drive behavior. So if my behavior is to look at my husband's phone, which by the way, was actually my. Is what I consider my relapse when I'm looking at my husband's phone or tempted to look at his emails. It's not that I hadn't had reason to in the past, but what that did for me, there was an element of pain shopping that I was experiencing. My heart would race pain shopping.

That's good.

Yeah. And there was an element of control that I was experiencing in that moment. So for me, that was a huge piece of what I would consider a relapse for me. But I have to work through my thoughts and beliefs that are driving that fear, that emotion which pushed me towards having that behavior. So using really all of these, these tools that we've been talking about.

Succinctly.

That's the word.

Got it.

Thank you. So using them together is really, really important. It really. That's what rebuilds a new or what builds a new neural pathway. Otherwise, behavior modification is only going to work for so long. So we want something permanent and lasting. We want something with lasting results, which means we need to take what we know to create lasting results and implement those into our lives.

You guys already talked about how you made a change where Nick asked a question about a commitment to change you had shared and you're like, oh, no, we haven't done this. And then now you're already making those changes. Okay, now we need to think about daily, weekly, what are things that we can do? And I think that that's something that we do in recovery anyway, where we start to use a tool, realize that we're not using it the right way, and then tweak it or make this adjustment or ask someone, hey, help me adjust this or help me see this the right way. How has this been helpful for you? And so I think that those kind of things a lot of us already do. But we get into this mindset of performance based, as we've already talked about, I have to get an A on this assignment in order to like, I have to do the thing that I said I'm going to do or I failed. Well, if the thing that you said you're going to do isn't realistic and no one on the face of the planet can do it, then it's okay to change it, because this is not a grading system. You're not going to get to the end of that week and be like, okay, you got an A for recovery. And that's going to make this huge difference.

Sometimes things come up in the middle of the week, too. Like, I will have, okay, this is what my commitment to change is going to be. And then life gives you a little bit of a detour, and you're like, all right, I'm going to put that commitment to change and hold on to priority.

But now I'm throwing up, and I can't do that. It, like, things happen.

Exactly.

But then even smaller things, like maybe something happened at work or something happened with group or whatever it may be can change. But I think that we have to look at this process of healing and recovery as dynamic. It's always moving and changing. And so for us, are we moving and changing in the right direction, or are we moving and changing in the wrong?

I think it could actually be changed from commitment to change to commitment to growth, because growth does bring change ultimately. So, I mean, we're committing to growing.

It's more that process.

Right. You know, and I think if you're in a group, that's an obvious time to make your new commitment each week. In fact, I've mentioned this before, but encourage it, because I see a lot of value that if you'd, like, take some time at the end of group and have people come up with their commitment to change then. Because so often group is eye opening, there's self awareness. You hear someone else share it, and you go, oh, my goodness, I'm stuck in the same thing. And there have been so many groups I've gone to. Like, I kind of think this is what I'm working on this week. And then I'd share my faster scale. I'd go through group, and by the end, it's like, no, there's totally something much more important than I need to focus on. So I think that's a great rhythm to get in. If you're not in a group, the question might be just when is a good time for you to sit down and do some of this self evaluation? Is it a quiet time when all the kids are gone? Is there a time in the evening or the morning where you're able to reflect and maybe walk through your faster scale, identify what's been driving you? What emotions are you feeling? And then kind of look, look at that holistically and say, okay, in light of where I've been in the last week. Where do I want to go in the coming week and set that new commitment? And I think it could happen any time of the week. It's just the question, what is your rhythm? What makes sense for you so that it does become, as we've talked about, just that regular part of your habits and rhythms, almost like second nature, muscle memory. Like you said, Jen, that this is just what I do to analyze my week and make. Make a plan for the coming week.

Yeah. So in this situation of being a betrayed spouse, having betrayal trauma as a part of your life, a commitment to change and facing your double binds is going to help you. Doesn't mean it's going to solve all your problems. Doesn't mean it's going to restore your relationship overnight or in a month or in a week, whatever. But it is going to give you the tools. It is going to give you the mindset, it's going to give you the practical steps in order to get to that next level or layer of health that you want to get to. And so even though these tools may seem like they're more for someone who's struggling or addicted, these are tools that we have intentionally in both struggling resources and betrayal resources because they're helpful. And again, we are, after, we talk about this a lot, this family systems issue. We're after holistic healing of the entire family, of the entire marriage, of both spouses. And so these tools are really helpful and they're going to be difficult. It's not going to be a fun experience. But change and growth is not always fun. And it's not something that as you're doing it, you're like, yay, I'm growing. It's later you're going to look back and say, I'm so thankful that I implemented these tools in my life because look at where I'm at now. So just be thinking about that future as you step into these. Jen, thanks for sharing your experience. Thanks for sharing about Dan. You know, he could have had him in. Come and talk about it. But just thanks for being here.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you're already subscribed, write a review. It helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being helpful.