193 - Tools For Betrayal: Recovery Action Plan

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hello there, listener. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 193 of the Pure Desire podcast Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Hey, Macarena.

When was that song originally, like, released?

Ooh, I would go mid-90s, but I could be way off. Hey, Google.

Yeah?

When did hey Macarena come out? Let's ask.

Anything.

It's thinking. Sorry.

Oh, God.

We'll get it later.

This is where I insert Apple, you know, is superior to Google joke, but I'm not going to 1993.

Okay, not bad.

1993. Well done.

Mid 90s.

Yeah, well done. Um, well, today we had. I'm. I'm now like thinking, how is he gonna tie this in to what we talked about today? Because we had Tracy Wright on the podcast and she is now one of our new clinicians. She's been on our advancement team before you. You might know her husband Rodney. We've heard have him on a couple times. She's also the co author with Rodney of How to talk with your kids. I always mess that up. It's how to talk with your kids about sex. And we had her on to talk about continuing on in our tools for betrayal series. The recovery action plan.

Yes. Well, Trevor, you may know that hey Macarena has like some choreographed dance steps with it. And yet there's also freedom and liberty to, you know, throw in your own stuff and make it your own dance. And so the recovery action plan, that's the tie in that there is kind of some choreographed steps here. There are some recommendations we make. We have a step by step plan people can follow to fill it out. But. But every life is different. Every marriage is different. Every need where you're at in the relationship is unique. And so you do need to have that flexibility to kind of look at what do I need right now in this season of life where our relationship is at, and add that uniqueness to your plan even as you follow some scripted steps. So that's the tie in. I think Traci has just such great insight, both her own story, the work she's doing now as a clinician and leading groups, and just her heart for women to live in health and joy and freedom and in good marriages, that those aren't two unique things that we can have health and joy in a good marriage. And I think the recovery action plan is a big part of that, Yep.

That'S a super good conversation. Couple things before we get into it. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all major platforms and then also follow us on social media earedesirepdmi. And you can also find all these full episodes now on YouTube. To search pure Desire Ministries. And here's our conversation with Tracy Wright on Betrayed Spouses using the Recovery Action Plan. Traci Wright, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. This is your first time that you've been with us since you've become a Pure Desire clinician. So welcome.

Yes, thank you. I'm really excited to talk about the tool today. And for the past four or five weeks I've been working with my current Betrayal and Beyond group and they've been going over their recovery action plan and supporting each other, asking a lot of good questions. So. So I'm excited to talk about it and I wanted to do a quick shout out to those six ladies, courageous women that are doing the hard stuff of recovery and they believe in their spouses and themselves enough to do it.

That's awesome. Nice. I was gonna say, is this the first time we've had Traci on without Sir Rodney?

I think so. I think so. We've realized who the better of the.

Two rights are and send talkative Guy out of here and actually let Tracy talk.

That's right. That's great.

We love you, Rodney.

We know you're listening so much.

Yeah, we love you.

We love you. So, okay, so we're in week three of our Tools for Betrayal series. We're gonna jump into what Traci already mentioned, the Recovery action plan. And this is a plan that's created for both spouses to use while they're on their healing journey. So we're definitely excited to do that. But first, trace just from your perspective, both as an all clinician, as a group leader, and as someone who's gone through bnb. What is a recovery action plan and why would a betrayed spouse need it?

Well, I like to start simple because we're going to go into detail of what it is, but starting simply, it's just identifying what my needs are and identifying what boundaries I need. So boundaries are just what is okay and isn't okay. And so I can begin by defining those. And often for a betrayed spouse, it can be an emotional time so we could be over functioning or under functioning. And the plan just kind of gives us that clear picture somewhere where we're able to, in a clear headed way, write down some things and just begin that plan for Me in our early recovery, my husband and I, which is now 24 years that we've been in recovery together. My husband's counselor said to me, one of the first things he said is, you'll not be able to control the choices that he makes. The only place that you can control is what you're okay with to live with. So I started there with. Just went home, scribbled down some boundaries, some consequences, and I found him a couple years ago, and I didn't have the support that I needed. I wish I had the Recovery Action Plan tool then, but it was a starting point. And a couple things that I think that did for me is, one, it gave me the ability to let go, to not try to control him. I have this down. I know what my consequences are, and I could then have the ability a little bit to let go. And the other place is sometimes for a betrayed spouse, we feel that sense of powerlessness. I don't have control over the choices my spouse is making. So that gave me a little bit of empowering or a healthy sense of what I do have control of, which is really my own choices. I have control over me and the choices that I want to make.

Yeah. And for some of our listeners, they will remember or know this plan as the safety plan, as Pure Desire originally called it. And that made sense. When you think about, like, emotional safety, when a spouse is relapsing, the way that that can just make us feel vulnerable and like everything in our life is up in the air and unhinged and we don't know where to turn. And so it's that idea of, how can we return back to a place where I feel safe, secure, able to function, and get back kind of to my normal self? But for some spouses, they're like, what? I don't feel unsafe? And they would be maybe thinking perhaps of physical safety. And for some addicts as well, they're like, well, I'm not violent or raging. So we didn't need a safety plan. And we just found that people were maybe dismissing the tool without actually understanding what it was. Because I think anyone that's struggling with sexual brokenness and anyone that's a spouse is suffering from some forms of unsafety when this kind of behavior is happening. And so it. The word made sense. But if people don't open the COVID of the book, it wasn't working. So that was why we went to the Recovery Action Plan. And really, helping spouses and addicts or strugglers see that there may be speed bumps that come There may be relapses that occur and we need a plan to recover ahead of time. Like, we need to know if this happens, here's what we're going to do. And you think about families that have, you know, like, if you're going to. If you have a fire in your house, you have a plan, like, where do we go, where do we meet, who do we call? You know, what, things aren't worth grabbing, what is, what do you grab on the way out the door, that sort of thing. If you have a plan ahead of time, hopefully, Lord willing, you never need it.

Yeah.

But if you do, you're going to be so glad you had it because your brain is not able, in some of those really heightened emotional states to think clearly. And so knowing the plan and being able to follow a plan is what it's about and hence the recovery action plan. So just for any that maybe are thinking, well, how does this relate to the safety plan and are they different? They are the exact same tool with a different name and just some updated language and how we go about it, right?

Think MLB expansion teams, right? Baseball's back. So I just felt like I needed to say that. But I think it's funny because you talk about a fire like my family was. We literally were evacuated from our home like last summer because of everything that went down over here in Oregon. And so for us, we'd never been through it before and we didn't have a plan. Like, I wasn't operating off this. Like, well, if a fire starts today, what am I going to, you know, if it jumps the Clackamas river and is headed to my house, that kind of thing. But it is also one of those things that is based on experience. If a fire were to happen now, I'll tell you what, my plan is a whole lot different now than it was when we first got evacuated. And so it is something that you're leaning on your experience. And sadly, it is a negative experience in this arena of recovery and brokenness. But it is something that, based on your experience, you're putting this plan together. And so it's not something that's like a I compare to yours. Yours is better than mine. It is a looking at our experience, what we've been through. Because again, this is for couples, this can be used on an individual level, but for a betrayed spouse, this is in the context of marriage or committed relationship. So you are leaning on your experience as you're crafting this plan. And so that will help you. I just think it's important to say that will help you inform what this plan will look like.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's a working plan, so it's developing. So just like you said, as you have more information, as you experience more, and as you experience more healing, of course the plan is going to look differently and it's going to evolve. And so that's okay to not have it all figured out right away, but just get started on it.

Totally, yeah. So, Tracy, if we're the betrayed spouse in the relationship and we're working towards recovery, when should we create and implement the recovery action plan? Is this something we can do right away? Do we need to get some traction first? Do we need to wait for our struggling spouse to bring their plan to us? Like, what does it look like for the when and the how we create the plan?

I think it's good to just start the plan right where you're at. So we have an excellent tool online. It's really detailed for the spouse, addicted spouse, for their spouse in betrayal. And so just getting that and reading through that and kind of gaining a big picture understanding of it, I think is a great place to start and then start developing your own rough draft. So it just depends on where you're at with your need for safety and the type of support you need. I think developing the type of support you need would be one of the first things that I would look at, because I don't want to try to do recovery alone. I want to have people that have walked through it and. Or walking through it with me. And so just being able to do that. And then I just recommend having a group counselor, mentor that's been there. All of those pieces help you have a more complete picture of recovery. And recovery is an important part of life. It's valuable, it's needed. So taking it seriously and having that support. Yeah.

You know, I was just thinking as you were sharing, I don't think it's ever too early to set healthy boundaries, like in any context. I mean, if you're in a situation where there's pain or there's trauma or there's difficulty, I don't think that it's possible to set boundaries to protect you or to create health for you too early. And so I would just echo. I think what you're saying, Traci, is just do it now, like right where you're at right now. Start developing this plan. And I would also echo what you're saying. Make sure it's in conjunction with a trusted friend, mentor, group counselor, because this is something that even though we may not be. Cause we'll talk about, we'll get into, like, this a little bit. But if you're in a state where you feel like you're emotionally clear and can create some good boundaries, even so, because of the pain that you've experienced, you might not be as clear as you think. And so having that second set of eyes, that third set of eyes, Eyes looking at it could be helpful.

Well, and it's a little bit like asking the question, when is a good time to start having a budget? It's like, well, it will never be.

Convenient before I entered college and took.

All that money, and we always wish we had it sooner. And so the way you respond to Tracy, so ideal to say, wherever you're at, you need to start there. And I think part of that starting is just to acknowledge where you're at. I think for that betrayed spouse to just be clear about what feels like or what is considered a relapse for them, like, what do they see? That when this happens, it puts me in a really rough emotional place. It makes me doubt your love for me. It causes huge issues in our relationship. And so this is a relapse. And just defining that could be part of what you said of feeling a little sense of empowerment. Like, we're actually starting to clarify what's going on here and what is not acceptable. And then looking at, okay, and if that happens, not what do I make you do, but looking at, what do I need? Going back to your first answer, what do I need to start to move towards health, to move towards safety and recovery so that I can process the emotion, the trauma, the hurt, the pain that comes from that behavior. And the only thing I would say about, like, maybe when not to make it is if you are in the very midst of dealing with a current relapse or something that's just been revealed when we're at a very heightened emotional state of trigger pain, anger, There just can be some things we might say that in the long run, might not be really what we need for our recovery plan. And so you might want to write down. I mean, I definitely encourage betrayed spouses to journal your thoughts, to share what you're feeling, to get some things on paper. But it's probably not the best time to make a hard and fast plan in the midst of your turmoil. So try to get a few days removed from that and then have a clear plan. But on the other hand, maybe some people are listening and they're like, my life is always in that trauma state. I can't escape it. I need a plan. Then that's where, Tracy, your advice about having a counselor that can speak into it with you, a group leader, a trusted friend that can kind of help you navigate, like, what is just you being a little extreme in your emotions and what is really solid plans for if this keeps happening. So if that's where you're at, that's obviously a really rough place to feel like your life is just always in that heightened emotional place. So getting some help right away and creating this is still necessary.

And let me just say this too, because I think it's important to also consider that we would say the same exact thing to someone who's on the other side, the struggling spouse. Like, if you are struggling and you have another relapse and you make your plan, right at that moment, you're like, okay, I'm getting rid of my car, I'm getting rid of my phone, I'm getting rid of the Internet. It's like, okay, those are all things that might help you. But like if you get rid of your car, how are you going to get to work? If you don't have a job and can't get to work, how are you going to pay to provide for your family? Like, if you're going to get rid of your phone completely, like maybe let's just say get a dumb phone and not a smartphone. Like, so this isn't something that we're just saying to a betrayed spouse. This is a principle that would apply to both. So let's talk about the differences then, Traci, because this is something intended for both spouses to do. What if we're a betrayed spouse? We put together our needs, the consequences, the boundaries that we, we need in order to feel safe. But then we look at our spouse's recovery action plan and it's different. How do we handle that situation?

Well, first, I think it's great if a spouse is owning their own recovery, because that's what I want as a free trade spouse. I want them to be coming up with their own plan and saying this is what they need. And so I think that's a great place to start. I want to look that they're having growth over time and I want to listen to what they have in their plan. I think that we want to try to come to an agreement at some point. So we, you know, I think of marriage, I've heard of it. Recovery and marriage is like a three legged stool. There's my recovery, his recovery, and then there's our Recovery as a couple, and we overlap in that recovery as a couple. And so that's a place where, where if we're working on reconciliation, we wanna talk about that together and we wanna look at where our areas of difference are. And is that a deal breaker for me or is that something that I can adjust on? If it's a deal breaker, then again, we might need a third party, we might need some more support if we're not able to kind of come to a conclusion or an agreement on that. But really trying to be able to do that, work that together is going to be the best result for two people that are on their healing journey and that want to come together as a healed couple as well.

And I would say for the side of the one who is struggling or dealing with addiction. If your spouse comes to you and says, here are things I need for my recovery that are a part of my recovery action plan, you need to really be humble and add those to your list and add those to your plan and not be like, well, I don't see why you need that. And I don't think that it's like you're really not in the position to tell them what they can or can't do when it comes to their recovery. Now if there are things that they are asking you to do, again, I think you really need to listen and if at all possible, add all of it to your plan. But if there are some things that a spouse brings to you that you feel are maybe unnecessary or too punitive, and we're getting into that in a little bit, that's where I think you can have some healthy conversation. But just be super aware, if you're the one that's causing the pain and stuck in this behavior, you're really not in the position to defend yourself or ask for things. And so you need to really approach it with humility. And if at all possible, say, if this is what you need to feel safe. To see that I'm taking it seriously, to see that I'm eager to learn and to grow, then I will, to the best of my abilities, follow your plan. So just that's kind of the over encompassing idea. Like whatever your spouse brings to you when they're in the midst of this hurt and betrayal, add it to your plan. Because that's part of how you show. I'm taking your needs and your feelings seriously. I'm validating the way I've made you feel by incorporating these into my plan. So as much as possible, receive their plan and add it to what you're gonna do.

And I would say this is again, a huge piece to having a group around you is because if I. So if I am the struggling spouse and my wife brings to me her recovery action plan and some of it feels punitive or extreme. If I bring that to my group, then. Or my group leader, I mean, this. And this has happened where the group leader will just be like, bro, you need to write that down. Like, that's gonna go on the plan. That is totally normal. I see it all the time. My wife and I have the same thing. Like, stop complaining. Just this is what you gotta do. Or if your group leader or group responds with like, I mean, I understand, but it feels punitive. Or this has been my experience with something like that. That then gives you maybe a little bit of confirmation one way or the other. But again, it's that, I mean, this is what you're talking about, Nick. The heart with which you approach that conversation with your betrayed spouse is so important. You have to be humble. You have to understand that we're doing this because of your unwanted behavior, not because they just want to be a police officer that monitors your behavior 24 7. This is something that we're working together toward. You know, remember, the goal of this is restoration, trust, intimacy, a healthy relationship and marriage. And so I would just say bring it to your group and then make sure that we're not. Well, my group leader said, this is ridiculous and how, like, there has to be a posture of humility as you enter into it. But it's okay to on both sides enter in your group and get their perspective on it. Because I think it's going to help you flesh out the plan together better.

Yeah, that's a great point to remember. The goal, the long term goal is a healthy relationship. And if this is what it takes to get there, then I think we've got to be willing to do that. So, Traci, part of the recovery action plan is consequences. Sometimes consequences that the addict or struggler chooses and some things that will feel like consequences that the spouse brings. And so in this case, when we're the betrayed spouse, that can feel punitive. So let's just talk about why. Have you seen consequences are so necessary to help the one who's struggling learn and grow.

Well, first, consequences are part of life. So when we deny our consequences, when we rescue ourselves or others, we stay emotionally immature. It's just a fact. If we aren't facing those double binds in our life and facing what we need to change and pain is a huge motivator for change. So sometimes getting in the way or rescuing does not allow someone to feel that pain. We put a safety net under people and they're not allowed to hit bottom. We get in the way of that. Especially when people have had a pattern for a long time. So in sexual addiction generally that's been a long time pattern. So in order for it to change, it's a big change. In order for it to change, there is going to have to be some pain and some consequences. So just knowing that sexual addiction seriously impacts marriage. Right. And it's hard often for betrayed spouses to follow through. It just really is. It's a big double bind. If you fail, then my marriage fails, my life fails. So it feels like there's a lot to hold that. But just being able to understand and have that picture that I am acting in my spouse's best interest when I allow them to feel that pain.

Yeah, I've heard stories of physical things that a struggling spouse has to do if a relapse happens. And there are things that are uncomfortable and what's kind of interesting is they're in a lot of ways trying to help the struggling spouse understand what it feels like on the betrayal side. And I think that if anything it's going to help you understand the pain and the trauma that you're bringing or causing. Whether you intend to or not. This unwanted behavior is bringing that onto your spouse. And I think in some ways it can help really kind of like foster in more empathy, more understanding and just like a sober mindedness of how the actual impact of my addiction or my behavior is playing out. And I think too like understanding that if there are some consequences on there that you're going to sleep on the couch or you have to go stay at a hotel or with a friend. And that thing also impacts not just your spouse and your relationship, but also your relationship with your kids or. Or with a community that maybe live in your house. That there are consequences outside of this marriage or this relationship that impact other people outside of that. And so I think that in some ways it's going to help. Just this is just what I see in my head is it helps flesh out the overall holistic impact of my behavior in a way that helps me see it for what it really is.

And what you're talking about. Trevor, we see on actual brain level and I talk about this all the time at our events, that at a very basic level your brain is built to pursue reward and avoid punishment, to avoid pain and pursue pleasure. And that's how God made your brain. That's not like a sinful, fallen thing. That's a very healthy, you know, the kind of thing that helps us survive as human beings. Thank you, Lord, for making us that way. But it's also what gets hijacked for sin and for addictive kind of issues. And the problem is that our acting out had a pleasure to it. It had a payoff. And even if it's something in our morality or our healthy view, we'd say, well, that's not good for me. The neurochemicals are saying otherwise. The neurochemicals are designed to create an intense rush of pleasure and feel good reward. That up to this point for many people has maybe been much greater than the punishment or the pain. And so here's the point. Feeling sorry for what you've done, feeling really bad about how you've hurt people isn't enough pain to, to cause us to change. That pleasure that we experienced in the acting out is still greater than the little bit of pain we had to deal with. And so the brain learns from that and goes, well, you know, yeah, we had some pain, but boy, that pleasure hit was worth it. And so it continues to gravitate in that direction. But when we choose consequences, our brain learns and grows and says, you know what? That wasn't worth it. Yeah, there was that momentary pleasure, but then I had to sleep on the floor. I had to do some, whatever is on a person's plan. I had to clean all the bathrooms for a month in our house. I had to do all these extra things for our kids so my spouse could get away and have some time to just recover. And the next time they're tempted, they're thinking about it and going, oh man, there's all these consequences. And so that is, as you were saying, Traci, that's what causes us to grow. The other thing I would just mention, for spouses that are bringing these, just because you are identifying what you need, if you're the betrayed spouse spouse, it may feel like a consequence to your spouse or husband or wife, but that doesn't mean you're punishing them. And so like for my wife, she's identified one of her needs is she needs to be able to get away and do something for herself. And so on our plan, I've agreed that she gets at least, you know, a four hour time block, longer if she needs it. She gets at least $100 to like go to a spa or get her hair done. And I have to cover all the home responsibilities. And so I can take that and be like, well, that's a punishment to me. It's not fair. But really, the perspective is she says, this is something I need to get better, and I've agreed to that. So it may feel like a consequence to me, but it doesn't mean she's punishing me. It's her back to what Tracy said at the very beginning. It's her understanding of this is what I'm going to need to process what's happened. And so I receive that. And yeah, maybe it feels like a consequence, but that's the very thing that's going to help me learn, grow, and make better decisions in the future.

Yeah. Trace, let me ask you something with this. Like, what if our spouse. What if we're a betrayed spouse? We bring the consequences on this plan and our spouse feels or reacts to it thinking, this is punitive, this is too much like, I don't think this is okay. How would you suggest someone responds in that situation?

Well, I think something really practical, and one of the ladies in my group shared this with me is listen to the podcast about it with your spouse. We have several podcasts, I believe, on this topic. So listen to that. So he has a greater understanding, the big picture of what's going on, and it feels less punitive for her husband. After he listened, he was like, oh, I understand that a little bit more. And so I think that's just a great, practical thing. Read through both sets of the tools together. If you read the online tools, you will have a. A really great understanding for what we're talking about here and why it's not punitive. I think then it takes on a whole different picture for you. And again, then coming from a place of humility, I mean, humility is a beautiful thing. It's a godly thing. And so to be able to take on that humility and say, right now, especially at the beginning of recovery, my wife is very wounded and she's going to need a lot if we're three years down the road. And some of there's. She's very dysregulated. We might need more support, we might need somebody. But right now, it's okay for her to ask a lot of things, and it's okay for me to say, yeah, I want to help you and support you. Right. And Trevor, you said it. Bounce it off your group member or someone that's gone through it to just, you know, if it doesn't feel right and they'll help you. They'll help you understand whether, oh, no, that's a really good thing for you, or, you know, maybe she needs some more support. Maybe her own family of origin trauma is coming into this and affecting her and how she relates. But that's going to happen over time. If your goal is reconciliation, you just have to keep remembering what's my goal. If it's reconciliation, I have to give. Both spouses have to give if that's their goal, in order to get to that other place side of healing.

Yeah. And that's a great point. That if what your betrayed spouse is bringing to you feels extreme, and I'll just speak to the addict or struggler again, like, that's an indication of how they're feeling. And you want to take that seriously and not dismiss, like, oh, this is punitive. Like, maybe that is what they need right now, and it's showing how extreme their pain is and the fear of continuing to be hurt. And you need to be willing to receive that and say, wow, this is bigger than I thought. And just as Traci mentioned, it doesn't mean it will always be this way, that this is your forever, but it may be for right now, for six months, for a year, for this initial part, part of your journey. Absolutely what they need. And if it feels extreme to you, maybe that's what you need to take on. Like, wow, this is way bigger than I have allowed it to be. And that's actually healthy for me to embrace that.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think of what Traci said toward the beginning is that this is a, like, ever evolving document. And so it is something that's built into as you grow and as you develop as a couple, you also will be changing this. Okay, so I know we get this question a lot, and I heard this from our women's groups coordinator, Ashley Jamison, that we get a lot of questions of women who still go through betrayal and beyond. And even I think there are men, too, that go through hope for men in this arena that are separated or divorced. And we get to this idea of a recovery action plan. Should someone who is separated or divorced go through and use this tool?

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. The tool is for you regardless of what that other person is doing. You are honoring and supporting your own value and worth by using that tool. And then you're strengthening also the understanding of your needs. So whether that person is meeting your needs or you're getting your needs met with friendships and mentors, you are determining, this is the need that I have. And also just knowing that God has A plan and a purpose for you regardless of the choices that your spouse makes. I have a very distinct memory early in recovery, standing in my kitchen, just thinking my entire life could fall apart here. I won't be in ministry anymore, everything could go away and so much fear and God just showing me, Traci, I have a purpose for you regardless of what your spouse's choices are. And I'm going to take care of you, I'm going to take care of you, your children, and you are going to have purpose in your life. So that was good. And I ended up being able to do recovery with my spouse to this day. But it was that assurance of this isn't about whether that happens or not. This is about me and I absolutely need to have that support and that healing in my own journey.

I think this could actually be a really healthy, intentional part of a planned separation or if there's a separation that is meant to be some healthy space to decide can we make this work? That as the betrayed spouse, seeing your counterparts willingness to accept your recovery plan, to work on it, to follow anything that it says and really that conversation could be a big determining factor of is this relationship going to make it. And so obviously in those situations we would recommend, I would recommend that this is being done in conjunction with, with a counselor, with someone that's kind of walking you through what to look for, what to be aware of in a divorce situation. The difference is it's more clear than ever that you do not control the other person's behavior and there's really no goal of a relationship. So it does shift the goal of the recovery action plan just completely to what do I need to be healthy? Because you may find out that your divorced spouse is dating again or remarrying or making really stupid choices and it's impacting you or your children. And, and the question still remains, like what will I do in that situation? Will I just explode in anger at people and drink too much or spend money I don't have as a way to try to cope with what I'm feeling? Or do I have a plan to recover and it won't involve them at all if we're divorced? But it may be how do I process my emotions, my hurt and my pain in a way that helps me build and grow and not just do things that maybe I regret because I acted out of emotional pain? So it's very necessary for the divorced spouse. It just has a different focus or angle at that point.

Yeah, totally. I think I would just say like just to put it in this perspective, like the tool, whether you're in a marriage and you're working toward restoring it or you're not, the tool is about you and establishing what you need to be safe and to be healthy. And so like, even if you've never been married, the recovery action plan is for you. Like it is a tool designed to help you figure out what you need in order to be safe, to feel secure, to, to create boundaries. And can I just say we all need some more healthy boundaries in our life and let literally taste gross coming out of my mouth. But I mean it like I know we all need more healthy boundaries. And so this will help us put some handles on it, some language to it, I think, for what we need. And I know that in the church that oftentimes can be condoned as selfish or self centered or like, why aren't you thinking about other people? But in reality, if I'm healthier, that's better for, for other people. And so I think we can always use more boundaries. It just tastes so bad, but it's true.

So Traci, let's get really practical here. As people go about building their recovery action plan, they're maybe wondering, what should it include? What do I put on it? How do I know it should go on my plan? I have people ask me a lot like, well, can you just give me a list and I'll pick a few things. So how do you walk women and spouses through building their recovery action plan?

Well, with my group, one of the things that helped them the most was to look at deal breakers. So that's why I call them deal breakers. But of course that's going to include those sexual acting out behaviors and the consequences. But it might also include some other non negotiables for us. So other unhealthy, destructive behaviors or other addictions. If there are, that could be gambling or excessive drinking, it could be raging, it could be a lot of things. So I would say your deal breakers, right? There are going to be the sexually acting out and then other non negotiables. You want to include things that build trust. So trust has been broken and we're wanting to rebuild trust. So I'm looking at what do I need to rebuild that trust. So I would call that what I need more of. So more of could be emotional connection and we could have some tools around that, some marriage tools. There are a lot available. And also it could be what are you learning in group? You know, not sharing what other people are sharing in group, but what are you learning or what are you growing in that? That's something that helps a spouse feel more trust. It could be I need you to spend more time with family and maybe you spell that out as getting home three nights a week at 6pm so we can have dinner together, whatever you're needing. It could be that you need to be pursued. It could be that you don't want to be pursued until you're ready to be pursued. But I think positive reinforcement is really important and valuable. And again, if I am looking to restore my marriage, it may be hard because I don't feel like saying anything positive right now. I feel frustrated, hurt. But if I want to restore that marriage, then looking at what that person is doing right and saying I need more of that is a huge part, I think of being able to reinforce that recovery. And then the other one I would say is just owning your own recovery. So what I need, and we talked a little bit about that, what is my self care? What is my support? What are my own boundaries? And I might need to ask my spouse what certain things, like Nick, you said for your wife, like if I'm doing childcare or taking care of the home or something when they need some space asking what I need in those self care, I might need to take a walk or I might need to get a health check to make sure that I'm doing okay. A lot of different pieces like that. And then my own boundaries I think are really important too because I'm in a vulnerable place. So I want to make sure that my own coping mechanisms that I'm looking at that, whether that's food or raging or shutting down or what that might be. And then I'm vulnerable also. So I want to make sure my own boundary says I'm not flirting, I'm not fantasizing about a great marriage because I don't have one. So I'm putting in place the boundaries that I want to keep and even about what I'm watching maybe. So for me, I watch things that support married couples versus I don't generally watch something that that highlights or glorifies infidelity, cheating, that kind of thing. So can be a number of things that you put in there.

Yeah, that's good. I think this is another reason for me to be in group for people. I think again, this isn't something where we're lining up all our recovery action plans next to each other and comparing like yours is better than mine. But it is one of those things that as you're in the Group setting and your group's developing these together. That you hear someone say, you know, this is something that really helps me feel safe or secure or like, my spouse is doing the work and is trustworthy. And you're like, oh, that's cool. I'm gonna write that down too. And that is fully supported. That is something. We fully support that inside. And this is something I continue to press. You can go back and listen to all the podcasts. I've talked about it. If we don't share and we don't do the work, it's not just us that are missing out in the group experience. It's. It's also the other people in group. Like, they're missing out on my process because my process might actually help them develop theirs to be an even better one. I know for me, I get so much stuff from hearing other people go through their tools and go through their top tens and go through all of their process, because then it's like, oh, yeah, I feel that way too. Okay, I'm gonna write that down. So I think that this is, again, a push for me, from me to be in a betrayal and beyond or a Hope for men group. This is something that. And maybe it's not a pure desire group, whatever it may be. Get into a group where there is recovery and healing taking place between all of these betrayed spouses, because you guys are going to benefit each other as you develop tools like this.

My group is definitely leaning on each other, learning from each other, and, like, created new questions. You know, one of them was like, well, I created a consequence, but now I have to have a consequence for my consequence because what if they don't do that? Now I have to. Another one, the other girl's like, oh, oh, yeah, what do I do about that? So you're able to kind of. It's okay. You can rework your plan, but it allows people to see. Okay, well, I put that in there, but that doesn't make sense. Or this is really, really helpful. And this is how my spouse received that when I shared it with them. So I think that's super helpful.

Yeah, this is more cooking than baking, right? Like, baking has to be precise, the right measurements, or else it might not turn out cooking. Like, throw a little more of this. Add some of that.

Like, nice.

We're all learning as we go and trying to find what are the tastes or flavors we need in our marriage. The other thing I would add to what to put on your plan, a phrase we use all the time, is, you can't trust their words, but you can trust their actions. So when trust has been broken and they're saying, I'll do it right, I'll do it right, like, well, those are just words, and words aren't going to help fix the situation. But for you as the betrayed spouse, to ask, what do I need to see so that I feel like I can rebuild some trust and so you might realize I need to see that you're doing your group homework. Like, I need to know that you're spending time on it. I need to see and hear that you've made a phone call. Like, tell me who you called. Like, I don't need to know what you talked about or hear all the details, but I need to know, like, who you called and what time so that I know that's happening. Maybe if, like, I need to see that your phone or computer doesn't leave our common area because that rebuilds trust. I need to see that you are coming home from work when you say you will. Just whatever your issues are, where you feel that sense as a spouse of, I don't know if I can trust them. Well, then ask the question. Okay, what do I need to see so that I do feel like, oh, I can trust because I'm seeing in their actions they're behaving or walking in a different way. And then make those part of the recovery action plan.

Okay. So some people may be listening and they're like, this sounds like a great tool. I wish I could use it. It's not in Betrayal and Beyond or Hope for Men. Why is that? So let's pose that question. Why is it not in there?

That's a good question. Why isn't it in there? Well, I would say in Betrayal and Beyond, it's in, I believe, chapter six, there is a safety plan. So it has a lot of good questions, and it's very complementary to our online tool. And so when you're going through that, it really gives that great opportunity in group to talk about it and to develop it and to ask yourself questions.

Yeah. And I think we want to remember that no organization or ministry is perfect. You know, we develop over time. And when Betrayal and Beyond was first written, as Diane Roberts put in, so many great insights in there, I think at that time, you know, maybe 15, 20 years ago, the safety plan wasn't where it is now. It's not understood the way we do now. And the updates that we've been able to make through Ted and Diane's original work, and then the clinicians that have Come after on our team now, like, we've really continued to add and improve. And so it's become a much more clarified, centralized piece than maybe it was in the original writing. So in the group, people are in, maybe to the degree that the leader embraced this, was how significant they treated it. Because I know some groups, they just, in the first couple of weeks will pull this tool out, begin to use it off of the website. And for. On the men's side, for seven pillars group, it is in the introduction, which is why you need to do the introduction. If you're in a seven pillars of freedom group, you don't just jump to pillar one. Lesson one, do the introduction so that the men also have their recovery action plan. Or maybe by the time this recording, it'll be changed. But for years it has also been called the safety plan in there. But all that will be updated soon. So, yeah, it was just an acknowledge or it is just for me to acknowledge as the director. Like when those were first written, it wasn't developed the way it is now. And so we've definitely made a lot of changes. And I think in the future this question will be a little more relevant because I'm gonna be like, oh, well, the workbook I have, it's totally in there.

Yes.

Which means great, you've gotten our updated copies, which are in the works as we make this recording.

Yeah. And I think even though it's not in there, we talk about it a lot. I mean, in all of our content, we push it. And so even though. Because I think this is one of the things too, when someone gets into a recovery resource, we talk about it. Just trust the process. Trust the process. Some people are like, I can't do outside stuff. I'm just gonna do what the book tells me. Okay, we're telling you. Also add this piece. Just enter this in which if you, Lord willing, you and your spouse are both in recovery, this will be something that they bring to you as a part of you guys healing.

So the tool is developing just like our own action plan gets to develop. And I think that speaks to even the recovery world. Sexual addiction has developed since 24 years ago when my husband, I walked through it and didn't have a plan or a group and scribbled things in a journal. I mean, it has developed over the years. And that's why just the support and the understanding right now of all those thousands and thousands of people who've walked through this is helpful to you and to your plan and to your recovery. So we get to kind of stand on the shoulders of other people that have done it already. And that's a really nice, nice way to learn something.

So, Tracy, as people listen, they're in all kinds of different places in their relationship. Some are in a, maybe a betrayal group and their spouse hasn't started anything. Others are maybe in a group at the same time as their spouse and they're kind of walking this road together. And maybe others have actually come in late to the game where at first they said, this isn't my problem, it's yours. You go fix it. And then later on they got involved in their betrayal group. So as you think, kind of through the different places people can be in their relationship, when should they share their recovery action plan with their spouse? What kind of guidance or timelines do you give about how to approach the spouse and when's the right time to share that with them?

Well, there are some times that early in recovery it's really important. And so if there are safety issues, if there are other people involved, abuse of some kind, definitely early on, you're going to want to get some outside support and you're going to want to share that plan right away. And then like we said, that plan is going to develop over time. So I think another great time to share that plan is when you've both been doing some of your recovery work, you've both been working your own plans, and now you're ready to come together and talk, hopefully, and not as an emotional place, little more regulated, and talk about that place plan. And often that can come after a full therapeutic disclosure, which is really valuable because now you have everything out on the table that you need to the extent that you need to know about it and you have a basis for, you know, what you need to know to put in that plan and to be specific, and you're working on building the trust back. So those are a few different times where I think it works really well. And then the other one would be when there is a relapse. Of course, the plan is designed that when there's a relapse and maybe we're both feeling really uncomfortable or elevated, we can come with that plan and it's already been written down and it helps us walk through and get back on that road of recovery together.

Yeah, you know, I would encourage people along those lines. Try not to surprise them with the recovery action plan right after a relapse, like, oh, you relapsed. Ta da. Here's what I'm going to do because that can feel like Catching them off guard. So I think the truth is your recovery action plan will be, to a degree, limited until your spouse is aware of what it is. Because if they don't know what you're asking of them or what you're needing for yourself, they're not going to really be able to be supportive of it, even if they should be, if they don't know, they can't participate or really see what's happening. So that may be a hard conversation, difficult to bring up, but the other thing I would say is even if you only have you feel like you've only got half of your plan put together or 80%, like, don't wait till it's perfect, maybe you need to go to your spouse and just say, hey, when there's a relapse, it is really, really painful for me and I have a hard time knowing what to do. Here are three things. I mean, maybe that right now is all you have. You say, here are three things I'm going to need if there's a relapse. Right there in that simple conversation, you've created the foundation of a recovery action plan. And as you grow and make steps forward, it might develop a whole lot more. But if, you know, I need some space, I need to see some change and I need you to be aware of this. Like that that could get you rolling. So don't wait till it's 100% perfect and all these details to it. If you know where you're at, the sooner you can share that, then it becomes a foundation where there's a shared awareness of, okay, if these relapses happen, here's steps that are going to need to occur.

Yeah, and honestly, it's important to make the distinction between just sharing my needs and a recovery action plan. Like, if you haven't developed a recovery action plan, that doesn't mean that you can't share some things that would help you as you're going through this with your spouse. Like, you know, things like if you could be home at a certain time so that we have time together as a family, or you could, I mean, even practical things, like, hey, if you could text me during the day, just when you're thinking about, about me, let me know that makes me feel pursued and valued and loved. So I think that expressing our needs, and again, I know that that can get really messy, especially if we're in a really unhealthy and just like, post, you know, very recent relapse, There's a lot of things that can take that really can take over that sort of situation. But I think it's important to say that you can share your needs. It's not a matter of crap. I don't have a recovery action plan, so I can't share with my spouse what I need. No, no, you totally can. The plan is something that you put together in conjunction with your spouse. Hopefully, Lord willing, that's going to help create that better trajectory. And it's something you can both commit to. But you just sharing your needs is also something that's very important for you to do. And I think that we need to not confuse the two. The plan is one thing. Sharing your needs is another. They can overlap, but it's okay to just share what you need as a betrayed spouse.

And some people are going to have a really, really detailed plan. I've seen those plans. They're going to be specifically what is need and a consequence for each thing. And some people really value that, and that's okay. And that's good. And if that works for that couple, I think that's great. And other people are going to be much less specific or maybe as you get later in recovery. My husband and my plan would be really simple right now. And those things that before might have been itemized out, we already know and understand, and we have a baseline of understanding for them. So we're working more on everyday tools of, you know, continued communication in marriage and what works and what doesn't, what we need more or less of. But how you do your plan is going to look a little different for each person, and you get to kind of play with that and figure that out.

Yeah. So we've tiptoed around the context or the situation a little bit so far in the episode, but let's say that a betrayed spouse is in a relationship where their spouse is not pursuing their healing. They are not wanting to honor or put together a recovery action plan, or they just don't put any value toward this betrayed spouse developing their own plan. What do we do? I mean, that's such a messy and really difficult, and oftentimes it can be a common situation, at least during seasons of a marriage. So what does a betrayed spouse do in those situations?

Well, if they're just disregarding it, they don't want to work on their recovery. Then again, we're in that place of looking at what I'm okay with living at living with, and what am I willing to risk for change, what am I willing to live with? And I think that's something that definitely we want support in that's not a real good decision to make alone. We want support from others, trusted people in our lives. If he's just not agreeing with our plan, I think we can take a look at would he want to, but he just doesn't have the tools or the understanding. Maybe he hasn't been exposed to recovery like you have yet. So then that could actually be part of your plan, is right. In order to be in this marriage, we have to be in counseling or you have to be gaining some support. We have to have support for our marriage to move forward and to really face this. And then that also puts the own on him. He gets to make that decision. You're not actually making a threat or making the decision for him. You're just saying this is what I need to be able to move on. And that takes a lot of courage. It's not easy and it's steps in that process. It doesn't have to all be done at once, but taking it. I've been using the term the next right thing in my life, so I'm doing the next right thing. I don't always know the entire plan and how it's laid out.

Yeah, yeah.

I've heard our guest, one of our former guests, Jenna Reimersma, talk about this in her therapy that you really need to think through as a spouse. What are you absolutely willing to do? And as you said, Tracy, what are you willing to live with and not willing to live with? And this may be different, spouse to spouse, that if you're in a marriage and you just know if they are viewing pornography, that's not a relationship I can stay in if they're not addressing it. And I think that's part of the honesty of a relationship that needs to be figure out what direction it's headed in for you to go to your spouse and say, you need to know that where my heart is at, where my life is at, I am not okay with a marriage that has you viewing pornography. And if that's a choice you're going to continue to make, here are steps I will need to take for my own health and well being and not because I hate you, but you need to know that's where I'm at. Where other spouses may say, I'm not willing to divorce them over pornography, but I'm also not willing to act like it's nothing. So their conversation might be to say, if you're going to make that choice, I'm not going to divorce you, but I'm not willing to be intimate together. Or I'm not willing to sleep in the same bed for these number of days, or I'm not willing to do these things together because I don't feel valued or cared for. And so I'll stay in the marriage, but it'll be a different kind of marriage. And again, not doing it as an empty threat or just trying to punish them, but to really be honest with yourself and with them about where you're at. Because in an ideal situation, and thankfully we've seen this many, many times, that can become the impetus for change for the one who struggled. And they're like, wow, if I don't stop, they're done. That's how much they're hurt. And that was a wake up call for me realizing. I mean, I feel like I'd been battling it on my own and promising my wife it would change, but when it wasn't, it was like she was ready to be done. And that was what it took to, I think, really get us into the counseling process. Because I was. I was just so stuck in that fog of denial that I thought I was making progress without seeing how even in my progress, it was still just destroying our marriage and our trust. So to go back to what you were saying, Traci, just. Yeah, making those decisions of, here's what the deal breakers are, here's what I'm willing to live with, and here's what I'm not. And then bringing that to your spouse, just to be honest and to face the truth and reality of your relationship, not to be anger punishing, but to say, here's where I'm at. And then to say to them, so you can make the choices, you get to live the life you want to choose to live. But here's what you need to know, that if you make these choices without any sign of repentance or desire to change or willingness to change, then here's things I will need to do as well. And those clarifying conversations, again, super hard, super challenging. But honestly, what creates the clarity you will need in order to move forward in your relationship one way or the other?

Yeah, very important and very valuable to be able to do that. And I like to think about, like, what is in that person's eternal best interest. That's how I love someone. Well, and so it isn't in my spouse's best interest. I'm not loving them. Well, to say this doesn't matter or ignore it, maybe we're not saying that, but we're ignoring it. And I don't have to go to the extreme of walking out the door and saying, I'm never going to see you again, there's places in that middle for us to keep working through that and keep saying, because I care about you, because I care about myself, and because I care and value my children and our family, I'm going to make some tough decisions. I'm going to do it with help and support of others, and it can be in steps. Here's our next right thing to be able to move towards that recovery.

Yeah. So obviously from the conversation, having a recovery action plan in conjunction with your struggling spouse, having their own is great. Having one when your spouse is not in the picture or not wanting to pursue their own recovery is also great. So just continue to develop this plan. And I want to be careful in how I say this because I don't want this to sound like. Because, like, you throw a word around like codependency, and it's a very triggering word. And I. I want to be careful. I'm not saying that that's not what I'm referring to, but I think that there are times when we put our healing or our willingness to take steps in our own healing onto someone else. And this is across the board. We do this not just in this situation. And so I think that it's one of those things where if you're in a situation where you are a betrayed spouse, you do have steps that you can take in order to create safety and healing in your own life. Are there things that are important impacting you that are not your decisions and you didn't bring on. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we validate that 100%. My fear is that we allow ourselves to then get stuck in that mindset where I can only heal if this person does this or this person does that. And that is not the place we want people to stay. We get there all the time, but that's not where we want to stay. We want to take those steps on learning how to manage our emotions. And we. What we experience in life and the difficulties. We want to learn what it looks like to set up health and trajectory for me as a human being, as an individual, because whether that marriage is going okay or lasts, your life is going to impact people outside of that, too. And so understanding our health plays into that. So that would just be like, my final push is just like, this is something that we suggest people do because your health matters. Regardless of the context you're in. Your health, your safety, it matters. Preachy. But I just. There it is. Tracy, thanks for being with us. Thanks for being a counselor and rocking it. Thank you for leading groups and thanks for your time today. Appreciate it.

You're welcome. Thanks.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire helps you create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you are already a subscriber, please write a review. It helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.