194 - Tools For Betrayal: Three Circles

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What's up? What's up? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 194 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

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Yeah, right. It's gonna show up on your accountability report later. Okay, so today we finished out week four of our four week series on tools for betrayal. We had Heather Kolb to talk about a tool that gets used primarily for relapse prevention, but we applied it to the betrayal side and it's the three circles tool.

Yeah. And sometimes in betrayal, I think we can just feel kind of trapped or caged and like there's monsters out there that want to hurt us. And so it can feel easiest to just try to kind of cocoon ourselves into safe places. And to a degree that may be necessary, depending what's going on around us. But we also want. And I think throughout this series, what we've been looking at is the betrayed spouse needs to be aware of their needs and their reality that they're a person that needs to continue to grow and learn. And regardless of whether a spouse in their world is also doing that, their future is going to be dictated in many ways by the health that they're able to reach out for. And so today's episode, I think these three circles is really a tool that can help us move out of maybe the cage that we've gotten stuck in and see what does a world look like where I can walk in freedom and health and joy and not just live in fear of will that big bad monster in my life create more problems. And I think there's just so much healthier. And for everyone who's listening, the tool that we talk about has application to your life. And so I think people are going to really get some great insights from Heather, our guest, on how we implement this tool. And it's a good one.

Yeah, it absolutely is. Two things before subscribe to the podcast. Follow us on social media. And now, here is our time with Heather Kolb on the three Circles tool and betrayal. Heather Kolb, welcome back.

Thanks for having me here.

Yeah, you're sitting a lot closer than.

Yes.

Kind of a new configuration, like more to come.

It's weird.

Should put up some plastic plexiglass just to make sure. We're gonna be wearing masks and we're.

Gonna be talking like this during the. See, I say that and I'm like all the political thing. Okay.

You're gonna trigger people better move on.

Okay. So we are week. Week four of the Tools for Betrayal series. Almost messed that up. Tools for Betrayal. Today we're going to look at a tool that we talked about a lot and gets talked a lot in conjunction with recovery and addiction. But we're going to talk about the three Circles tool or the relapse prevention tool and talk through how a betrayed spouse might apply it to their own healing. So let's just start with what is the three Circles tool? And let's even talk about what are the three circles inside of it. So generally, what's the tool? And then talk through the three circles themselves.

Okay.

And so this tool was really first introduced in 1991 by the Sex Addicts Anonymous, and it was their recovery tool that they would use with addicts. But in the last 30 years, it has been really applied to a lot of different arenas because it helps people to just kind of get a snapshot of where they've been, where they really, there's some caution areas and then where they want to go. And so when you talk about the circles, specifically, the inner circle is the one Where a person decides, these are the behaviors that I'm going to stop doing, so I'm not going to do these anymore or I'm going to abstain from these. The middle circle are the behaviors that could lead or could tempt a person to go back to their inner circle behaviors. And then also then the outer circle are the behaviors that really a person wants to focus on, because those are going to be the behaviors that help them to move toward health. So that's essentially the idea behind this tool.

I know at a lot of our events, Heather, I've heard you talk about willpower and how willpower actually breaks into three different kinds. And I like how the three circles can actually mimic some of the three willpowers, because it defines for us what I'm saying I won't do. In guardrails, I'm kind of making a decision of what I will do. And then in the third outer circle, I'm declaring, here's what I want for my life. And it's cool how it empowers us to have all those three things working together. And I think for so many people, whether they're on the betrayal side or the addicted side, when they get into problems, they can see that in one of these circles, often they just. They haven't been following their own plan. And so it's not any one of them that is the key. It's really like, how do all three of them function together? Which is what you've talked about in sessions on willpower. Like, it's when we have the three of them and we see together, and not just relying on, I won't, I won't, I won't, or this is what I'll do for all my guardrails, but having them work in conjunction.

And we see that as a biblical model for behavior change, too. The idea of replacing behaviors, taking off, putting on. And then also just at a neurological level. And you even talked about this in the previous episode, and we've talked about it before, the idea that my brain doesn't just want no's, it wants yeses. And so it's like, okay, I'll avoid this, but I also need to pursue. And I've quoted it a few times, but there's just a book on how you develop habits, talent, skill, all that. You literally can't unlearn habits. You have to replace them with something else that take its place. And so that's the whole point of this, is trying to get us to think that way. It's not just, what do I Avoid. It's actually changing our brain by also the pursuit of new things.

Yeah.

So as you were alluding to in the intro, Trevor, we typically think of this as a tool for the addicted, the struggler. The clarity of a relapse is obviously what we're trying, trying to avoid so we can rebuild a healthy relationship and rebuild trust and intimacy. But this is a tool that can also be useful for the betrayed spouse. So, Heather, talk through that a little bit. Like, how does the betrayed spouse use this and how is it helpful for them, especially if they've maybe thought of it as well that's their plan and they've not thought about how could this also be a plan that I use?

Yeah. And so I think that it really is just another way to see kind of the pathway to healing or your progress along this journey, especially because of the design of it and the graphic that is used. It's a great opportunity to just say, okay, clearly this inner circle, these are gonna be the things that I'm not going to do. And then give you those guardrails, the middle circle, and then that outer circle is gonna be the one that you're gonna fill with a bunch of healthy things. Because I just think for all of us, especially a betrayed spouse, there comes a time when the weight of the crisis is so overwhelming, you know what I mean? And that their brain goes through all of these changes. And I think that sometimes it's not going to be based on our behaviors, are not going to be based on what we feel like doing, because we won't feel like doing anything except for crying maybe, or being angry or whatever. But it really is about, okay, if I have this in front of me, this is just going to be what I can look at, what I can visually see that's going to help me take the steps that I need to start living healthy.

Yeah. And you could call it a behavior change plan or a behavior change tool, because you're looking at what you don't want to do, how you're going to avoid those behaviors and what I'm going to do instead. Like, those are just simple ways to reframe it.

Yeah. For all of us to ask the question, what are things in my life I don't want to do? Because I see the long term impact on me or my relationships or my children. And so if we're the betrayed spouse, we may not be responsible for what they are doing, but we are responsible for our choices. And if we recognize that our pain or trauma can lead us to make also destructive Choices we don't get to just point and say, well, that's all their fault. They made me do it. Like, no, they're responsible for what they did. Yes. And that pain and trauma they've caused you is real, but you do need to own your behaviors. And so we've had spouses frequently that will say, I felt so hurt I wanted to hurt them back. And so I was tempted to have an affair or to reach out and do some things that would show them what it was making me feel. And if we can recognize, boy, that's really going to just cause more pain for everybody, then I can put that in my inner circle. Or if it's something like drinking too much or spending money I don't have. I mean, we all have reactiveness that if we're in deep pain, we might want to go cope ourselves. And that betrayed spouse needs healthy awareness of that just as much as the struggling spouse who's dealing with behaviors on their side. So it is one of those kind of Murphy's Law that if you don't have it, you'll wish you did. And if you have it, maybe you won't need it. I think that's the hope that when we define sobriety and what that middle circle is or the inner circle where we're not going to go, it can be that healthy tool that then keeps us away from those self destructive behaviors. Yeah.

So let's talk about examples then for each of the layers. What would it look like for a betrayed spouse to identify? So just give some examples. Inner circle, middle circle, outer circle.

Okay. And then this is also going to be very unique to an individual just based on what they're going through. And so one thing that's very common for a betrayed spouse is to want to police their spouse, want to be the one who is. It's a natural reaction, very natural reaction is that I need to make sure that they're not doing what they're not supposed to be doing. That kind of idea. But then it also puts so much weight and pressure on the betrayed spouse. And so that one I could see totally being in an inner circle behavior. Anger, like we've talked about, or wanting to hurt them could be. Yep, absolutely. Suicidal thoughts could be huge when it comes to a betrayed spouse or even that critical self talk, that critical thinking. Let's see what other ones, other things that we do, like you were saying, to medicate ourselves. So are we using food or alcohol or binging or any of those kind of things to medicate our own pain overeating under eating. You know, all of those things could be middle circle behaviors. Yeah. Or I mean, inner circle behaviors.

And those seem to be things that are unhealthy for the betrayed spouse themselves. So it's not identifying behaviors that hurt other people. Like, yes, we're trying to avoid those, but we're trying to identify things that are harmful to us or get in our way as we process through or as we try to heal. Right, right.

Yeah. And so then if you look at, if those are going to be some of your inner circle behaviors, then looking at your middle circle behaviors, which are the things that, okay, they're not going to be as unhealthy as the inner circle, but they could lead you there. In fact, I've heard this tool described as like a target. A lot of people look at it like that, but also as a funnel. And if you look at it as a funnel, then you notice that, okay, if I'm going to be in the middle or inner circles, then I'm more likely to slide into that hole. And so that's not going to be healthy. But if you have anger in your inner circle, but in your middle circle, you notice that, you know what, when I'm starting to yell at my kids, that's going to bring me back to that angry mindset. And so then that would be a.

Middle circle or like social media. When I'm there and I'm on it, that triggers me and makes me emotional, which then leads me to yelling at my kids in anger. Yes, totally.

Yeah. And so that would be some of those guardrails. Even if you start to notice that you're feeling irritated on a regular basis or you're blaming other people, or, you know, all of those kind of things are going to be those that middle ground that, where you start to have that awareness that, okay, I'm getting back into this unhealthy mindset. And then on your healthy, on the outer circle, those are all your go behaviors. Those are all the yeses that, that we talk about. Those are gonna be the things that, that you do for yourself that are gonna pull you away from the unhealthy behaviors. But have you walking in health. And so that could be making sure that you're getting enough sleep and exercise and eating well, that you're having relationship with the right kind of people, that you're not avoiding people, but that you're consistently and intentionally pursuing relationship. Those kind of behaviors.

Yeah, yeah. On the outer circle, I think it's always helpful to just ask, am I being holistic in my thinking. So do I have some things listed there that are physical, like sleep and food, exercise? Do I have things that are mental, emotional, and relational? And all of that is spiritual? But we could also add spiritual as a fifth one. I'm always thinking of our friend Rodney Wright says everything's spiritual. Yes, it's all spiritual. But we might look at that as a fifth component too, where we say, what's my relationship with God? Or going to church or taking time to meditate and journal mentally, how am I stimulating my thinking towards healthy? So if everything you have on your outer circle is physical, that's good. But you do want to say, what are the other aspects of my life? And the other thing I think about for all people filling out this tool, but definitely applies to the betrayed spouse, is to ask yourself the question, what happens on those days or time periods where I am not the person I want to be? And being able to take a healthy step back to just say, how did I get there? What are the things about my environment, my choices that lead into that inner circle or that crash? And that's where people around you, a group, supportive friends who can help you see some of those things. And it's also where the faster scale ties in, because if, as a betrayed spouse, we're starting to use the faster scale, those letters F through E before the relapse are the things we can start to see. Oh, when I'm moving towards that old unhealthy place of anger, like to use your example, it often starts with, I'm just forgetting the priorities of taking time to be with God or friends. I'm just too busy. And that step can seem very harmless. But if we see it's a big part of our pattern, then we want to make some ideas about that in that middle circle or the guardrails of just how am I constructing my life so I don't always end up back down to the bottom of the scale.

Yeah. And again, this is such like. And we're talking about it. I just want to say it plainly. Again, this is a tool that anybody can use for any behavior that they want to avoid or change. And so this is something that you know. And if you need to stop calling it a relapse prevention tool, that's fine. Like, you don't have to just reframe it. It actually does. I'm looking at Heather, that she has one right now on the table. It doesn't even have a title on it. So just print it out. It's just going to be Three circles. It'll help you.

Yeah. So, Heather, let's lean in again. And we've talked about it a little bit, but particularly for spouses that, you know, that word relapse has a very strong connotation of, like, they went back to that thing that hurts me so much. And maybe we've lived in fear of relapse or trying to guard our life against relapses. So to think of, like, a relapse in our life or that inner circle might be a mindset adjustment for the betrayed spouse. So how do they decide for themselves what kind of behaviors they would put in their inner circle of a crash, a relapse? I don't know. Is there a different word you'd maybe recommend that a spouse use to kind of create some healthy space between what their husband or wife might be working through that could help them just embrace things I don't want to do, and what would be more likely to go in the middle circle to be a guardrail? How do they make some of those distinctions?

And we've kind of talked about this a little bit, but I really think the faster scale is helpful in that. And especially as a betrayed spouse, like, if I notice that I am living every single day in ticked off and exhausted, and I can go through and highlight these different behaviors, there's a point in there where when I'm marking things, like, I'm thinking irrationally, where I can't think, where I'm starting to feel forgetful, and I'm having these kind of recurring things every single day, all day for me. And because of what I understand about the brain, I know that I am stressed. Beyond that, my cortisol levels are so high that it's inhibiting some of my functioning. And that really, that I basically fail to have any type of forward motion, that I'm not functioning at capacity anymore. And so that's when it's good to just kind of step back and say, okay, not only what can I do to prevent this, but how did I get here? And so. And I think that that's really important for me personally, really almost regardless of what's going on in my life. When I start to feel stressed, I don't sleep. And when I don't sleep, ooh, I become this really ugly person. And so it's one of those things where I always know that that then has to be something that that's a top priority, that I have to at least make sure that I'm sleeping, that I'm maybe not drinking, or I'm not staying up too late watching shows or any of those kind of things. But again, it's going to take that being able to have that awareness about what we're doing and how it's really causing this extra stress on ourselves and how do we get away from that? Now for somebody who's not using a faster scale, I would use your group or if you have trusted friends who are walking this journey with you just to be able to kind of flesh it out a little bit and explain how we're feeling. They might be able to look at our patterns and say, okay, this would be a good inner circle behavior. Or like you were saying, social media, that might be a huge stressor for people. Just being able to identify some of those things would be helpful.

Yeah, I think for me identifying this is going to take a few things. I think first you need to be, you need to approach this in a very non critical manner toward yourself. I think that we get into this like I just think everything that I do is wrong and I'm just a bad person and whatever shame, dumping it on ourselves. So there has to be this more gracious or even self compassion that we take kind of into this process. But I think we need to start paying attention to our patterns like that for sure. And that's the faster scale. But I think one of the ways I know for me, if I get to the end of the day and I'm looking at a behavior I don't like, people on the podcast know I get angry with my son now, both of them at the point we're at now. But I think that when I ask questions like what got me here, what happened today that got me to this point because I've identified. I don't want to do this. I don't want to be angry toward my kid or fill in the blank for someone who's struggling with betrayal. I don't want to get to this point. You ask what got me here? And I think you can also with you know, and I would say in the context of a betrayed spouse, use your betrayed group, your betrayal group to ask the question like ask others into that. What do you think? Like, you've been with me, I've talked you through my day, what do you think got me to this point? And inviting other people in because as we start to identify what got me here, that then helps us in our awareness and to identify our patterns which then helps us understand, okay, these are the things that I need to do in order to identify. Here are the guardrails because for me, and this is dumb, I thought of chutes and ladders, like the middle circle. If I break those, it's a ladder that or it's a. Sorry, it's a chute. A slide.

There you go.

It's a slide that just gets me right down into the inner circle of the crash site. So having other people help you identify what are the behaviors or patterns you see and then also taking that self compassion into identifying our own I think helps.

And there's that big chute that goes like all the way from the top to the bottom. Like we need to see what are the big ones that just get weight on versus which are the short ones. It causes me a little problem.

We'll take one whole podcast episode where we just play a game of that.

Yeah. When I think about this question, I think it comes down to continuing to ask the question which is so good for all of us. What can I control and what can't I control? And recognizing I can't control other people's choices, I can't control their behavior, but I do get to control my reactions and the steps I take for health. And so sometimes, you know, back to your illustration, Heather, about not sleeping well. Last week we had a night where middle of the night, for whatever reason, our puppy woke up and needed to go outside. And so I heard him whining and took him outside. So it's like 3:00am, hear him whining, take him outside, put him back in bed. And then, you know, I wasn't falling asleep, so I'm tossing and turning. I think my wife was the same. So somewhere like 4am she gets up and then I'm still not sleeping. And so by 5, 5:30, I give up and I'm like, okay, I'm get up and get some exercise. So here's a night I get like three, four hours of sleep. That is not my fault. Like nothing I did created that scenario. But I realized and it was before I was about to leave on a trip. Like I'm into ticked off and exhausted partly because I just, I did not sleep and now I'm frustrated by it. But that doesn't mean now I just get to be like, well, I get to do these things now because I'm.

Going to eat poorly on this trip.

I'm going to watch.

Yeah, right.

I had to be aware of, okay, if I'm going to be a decent human being by the time this trip ends, I need to have like I need to get to bed early. When we get to the hotel, I need to make some good choices. And I think I did so. So I think some choices well, but others not great. And so that awareness of what can I control, what can't I control can help in those situations where things happen. Because, and I've said this on the podcast before, I think part of being a human being means once in a while you'll end up exhausted. That doesn't mean you're a bad person, you perform poorly. That's part of living in a world that sometimes we get over committed or over busy or have a rough week and sometimes things that were totally outside of our control occur. And when we realize I'm in that low place asking the question, okay, what can I do now? What can I control? Is what moves us back towards the good place and to the people we want to be and not making self destructive choices for ourself or for our relationships.

Yeah, so on. And I think in the way that this tool is created that there is flexibility to develop it, change it, grow it, review it often. And I think that can depend on seasons where we're taking tons of step forward in our healing and recovery and maybe some seasons where I feel like we're taking steps back. So how often should a spouse who's experienced betrayal trauma, how often should they review or change and maybe when should those changes take place, if at all?

So it's recommended probably once every three to six months. I could see how it could be something that is changed more often than that when you have somebody like you were saying, who's experiencing rapid growth in an area. And so I mean, I think there's a lot of uses for this. I talked to one woman at a women's conference who, she was a counselor and they use this every week, the three circles every week in conjunction with their faster scale and their group check in because they could just really visualize the progress that they could see on this tool. And so there's a lot of ways you could use it. But if you're only just using it kind of as a check in, then probably every once every three to six months.

Yeah, I think it should be reviewed often. I mean often enough that you know it because if you can't remember what's on there, it's not going to serve you well. And if you only pull it out and look at it every six months, it's probably not going to be a foundational tool in your life. Reviewing it often. And I think over time what most people find is we internalize a lot of it. We just Kind of can feel, here's my health, here's my guardrails, here's where I don't go. And if you're at that point, then you may not need to keep reviewing it because you've internalized it. But for sure, the idea that Heather's saying about changing it, we don't want to get into a habit of just whimsically, oh, I don't need that one anymore, or this is going to be added, we can almost get so into the habit of changing it that we're not really following through. So I do think it's more likely that we could have growing self awareness and may add pieces that's more frequent. But in terms of removing things or taking them off, that's where I would encourage being slow about that. The three to six months. If after quite a few months you realize that scenario just isn't what it used to be, or it's not on the radar the way it once was, then make those changes. So, yeah, review often, change slowly and.

Don'T make those changes without the input of people who know you in your group. Maybe it is your spouse. In this context, it's probably safer that it's your group or a counselor. But because I've heard you say that if you do make changes, make them slow and make sure that it's not alone. It's not a decision you're making by yourself.

Well, and in particular for an addicted spouse that's maybe stuck in a lot of denial. Yeah, minimization. I think for the betrayed spouse, hopefully their self awareness isn't in that same denial. But if they're feeling like, well, I'm realizing I rationalize a lot of what I do. I minimize a lot of my own behaviors. That's the case as any human being. If we recognize some of that, that's where we wouldn't want to change the tool just arbitrarily because we might have humility to say, I'm not sure I'm seeing this 100% accurately. So getting input is good.

Totally.

So, Heather, this is an area where everyone's relationship is different and where they're at with their spouse who's been struggling or addicted and is in different stages of their own recovery. What guidance would you give about when and should we share our three Circles tool with our spouse? If we're the one who's been betrayed, Is this just a tool we use on our own or is it something we make part of the relationship? And what kind of guidance would you give us?

There so this tool for the betrayed spouse is not introduced until chapter nine, lesson four. So it really is in the context of this is what it looks like to live in health. And so whereas in, like, Seven Pillars, it's introduced earlier, and so it should be part of the language already. I think it could be a really good tool for a betrayed spouse to share with their. With their spouse, of course, depending on the relationship and if they feel safe doing that. But. But I think that also a betrayed spouse could use it even sooner than it's introduced in Betrayal and Beyond, and they could just get it from the website and start using it. But I think it could be a really good tool in the same way that a lot of couples will get into the practice of using their faster scales together, doing that together. I think that it could be something that they could share. But again, it's gonna be based on the nature of the relationship, I would think.

Yeah. Because you could get to a point in your recovery and healing together, that the betrayed spouse comes to the struggling spouse who's in recovery and says, when do you see me at my best? What are the things that I'm doing? And then it's like, oh, well, I know that when you come back from doing this or after spending time with this person, that you're in a really good head space. And at that point, they're helping the betrayed spouse develop their three circles tool and be a healthier version of themselves. So I think that's like the aspiration that we're after. We're trying to get to that point where we're using it together in conjunction to make ourselves healthier.

Yeah. It's the point that if we're sharing it with our spouse, it's for mutual support and encouragement. It's, boy, I'm letting you know what I'm working on because it helps me that you know and you encourage me and I know it's on yours, and we kind of together are growing. I mean, that's the beautiful picture that we hope could be true, but we also know that's not everyone's reality. And so if you have any fear as a betrayed spouse, that, like, this is a kind of tool. I heard a woman recently share how their spouse was using some of the tools as weapons against them of, like, well, why aren't you doing this? And it says you should be doing that. And if you have that sort of fear based on where your spouse is at, there may be wisdom in not sharing with them, because if they know your guardrails and Then they're kind of pouncing on you, like, thought you weren't going to eat cookies after 9pm or something like that. And if that's just where they're at, I don't think it's going to be good for you to give them more things that they're looking over your shoulder on now. Hopefully one day your spouse gets to a point where they realize, oh, that's really hurtful and I need to stop making their recovery a weapon I'm using against them. But if that is where you're at, yeah, it's maybe not a practical or wise thing to do. So I think you have to be honest with, is it going to help my recovery and theirs to share? Is it going to create more communication, more openness, and hopefully even more intimacy? And again, not just physical, but an intimacy of I'm willing to be vulnerable about my needs and weaknesses just as they have. And as we both grow in that vulnerability, intimacy comes and that's what we want. So if you see the hope of that, go for it. But if you're still at a place, this is too soon, too raw, too tender, there's too much fear behind it. Just wait and share it with your group. A trusted friend, a mentor, someone that you know will be on that support and encouragement side.

I'm going to enter this in there, and I've heard this a few times that, and this is like, maybe after you're starting to get some traction. There are definitely pockets. As someone who was an addict, there are pockets in my journey where I feel shame or I feel like, man, we're just focused all on my behavior and I'm the only one who has things I want to change. And I can tell you, when both spouses have things that they've identified they don't want to do and are taking steps toward that, there's this, like, bonding experience and this teamwork that it's like, okay, I'm not the only one who sucks and who needs all this work and has these terrible things I don't want to do. It's okay. I know I'm not the only one working toward change and toward avoiding these certain behaviors. And so I think that that might be something too. If you just think about the goal of restoring relationships and having the healthiest marriages and relationships that we can have, I believe that's a part of it, the shared experience that we're both taking steps toward healing. And so as a betrayed spouse, and I'm just sharing from my perspective, I've Never been a betrayed spouse. From my perspective as the struggling spouse, I would share that can be helpful down the road once there's traction and once there's some health that's really taking place, to be able to share that together can help your struggling spouse know they're not alone. So next question really is what if we're not in group? And I know this can seem like a silly question, but is this something that we need to keep on the forefront even when we're not in group? Or is it something that we're in group? It's like, well, come back to it it later.

I think that these, that this is a helpful tool whether you're in group or not in group. And especially because the idea is that, you know, you're not going to just go through your first year of group and find all the healing that you need. That that's just really your launching.

That would be so nice. If you're that person, will you write a book and send it to me that just. Gosh, yeah.

But for most of us it doesn't work that way. That this becomes a lifelong process. And I think that this can be a really helpful tool to use even when you're not in group. But just to kind of keep that level of awareness and keep that your goals or pathway in front of you I think is healthy.

I remember in our pre marriage counseling one of the phrases that we heard often and from many couples and really made a lot of sense is the phrase that two halves don't make a whole in relationships, that if I just come with all my needs and you come with all your needs and we're not really fixing us, we're just hoping the relationship fixes us. It's going to lead to a lot of problems in the relationship that the best relationships are where two whole people are co contributing to that healthy relationship. And so to me that's kind of the answer to your question, like whether you're in group or not. If it's your desire to be a growing, healthy person that can contribute in a healthy way to the relationships you're in, whether you're married or not. Maybe it's just to your kids or friendships or the family, whoever God has given you to do life with. Right now, your best relationships will be when you're bringing your whole self and aware of your weaknesses and humble to them and processing them. And whether they are, you know, if you're in a marriage, whether they are or not, if you are, there will be good that comes of it. And Even if it doesn't happen in the marriage because of choices they're making in your other relationships. Being a whole you that's working on your stuff is a great and beautiful thing. And so that to me is like the question of, well, group or not. Group can certainly be a helpful environment to build on this, to learn from others, to get input. But if you're not in group, you probably still want to be a whole healthy person. And this tool can really help create that picture of. Here's the person I'm continuing to work on and become more like totally it's good. Which kind of can lead into this next question because as we're talking about our three circles, there is kind of an aspirational idea like this is the person I'm desiring to be, the things I don't do, the things that I choose to avoid, and all the healthy stuff I do. And perhaps the more self aware we get, the longer or, you know, more filled out our circles become, which does present then. And here's the question, the opportunity that we can feel shame or look down on ourselves for the things on our circles we're not doing or the things that, you know, guardrails we broke and now we're just feeling like I can't live up to my own expectations, let alone other people. So Heather, what kind of advice, what should we do with that if we realize that our own tool is causing us to feel shame or become very self critical?

Yeah, and I think that that is one of the challenges just in this process is that we all are going to have these things that cause us shame. And even if we're moving away from them, even having them on this diagram could be a little bit traumatizing. And so I think that it's really one thing that I really love about this visual is that it's not that the inner circle and the middle circle and the outer circle, they're different sizes. And, and I love that because that one that would carry all of our shame is the smallest circle. And so then our potential for growth is not only what we're doing in the middle circle, but what we're also doing in the outer circle. And so just even reframing that to just remind yourself that this is where I've been, but this is not where I have to stay. I have these other circles that I can be moving toward on a regular basis and to help you get out of that mindset. And then again, shame is one of those things that, that ends up making us feel stuck. It's not as motivating as guilt, which I know that sounds kind of weird, but guilt tends to make us more motivated where shame kind of holds us captive. And so if you're stuck there, you know, seek some counsel, you know, talk with somebody else about it, because there might be something just that's. That's buried there, that's deep there, that, that has. That needs some healing. And so not being afraid of it, but also recognizing that. That I'm not in this alone, that. That this is just my progress. This is just a diagram that's showing me, like you were saying, that this is where I want to go, this is the direction I want to go and keep it kind of focused on that. So I think that helps as I'm.

Looking at it too, because you have it on the table here. It's funny because we think that when we become more self aware and we create a system like this, it'll feel confining. And this is just what I was thinking as you were sharing, because you're sharing something similar. The idea that the inner circle or the behavior I don't want to do is the smallest circle. That's where I'm confined. That's what keeps me at a fraction or the smallest version of myself that I could be. If you look at the outer circle, it's huge in comparison. This is what freedom looks like. I get to do all these things and pursue all this health and be a better version of myself. That's one thing I would just suggest visually, that's a really, really cool part of this tool. Another thing that came to mind was we had Kurt Thompson, who's an expert on shame, on the podcast, and he spoke at our summit last year. He actually said that shame in and of itself is not a terrible, terrible thing. It's actually what we do with that shame that matters. And so if this is something that causes you to feel shame, like, wow, I have all these behaviors I don't want to do and I don't understand the guardrails and my health. Gosh, look at my outer circle. There's not much there. It's not a matter of just that we felt the shame at that point, that if you feel that, ask the question now what? Because at that point you take some steps and you move forward. And that shame or that, if you want to call it guilt, I mean, you can argue it, I think, on both sides, but it's what you do with that feeling or that emotion or that sense of man, I just feel like I'm not as good as I need to be. Well, great. This is what the tool's for. To give you that movement forward, that vision forward.

Yeah. To go back to something you both mentioned. In a lot of groups, this tool is called the relapse prevention tool. And so that is at its base level, the goal of it is to help you prevent going to that inner circle of the person you know you don't want to be and. Or the things you don't want to do. And if you look at your life, say I'm, I'm not relapsing, then in a sense it's working for you, even if you're only doing marginally well in the other two circles. Like, the primary goal is, let's not do what we've been aware is going to cause huge destruction. Now, if you are still relapsing, that's a real good question of I might be. I must be missing something here. And talking to a counselor or trained professional that can help you see.

Yeah.

Why are you still going back to that place you've promised God, yourself, or others you won't, don't want to go. That's a really healthy conversation. Now, outside of that, if we feel like I am getting a lot of traction, I'm not relapsing, but I still feel shame. I know for myself, my struggle can be that performance mindset. And I can treat this kind of like a performance tool. And in my life, you know, all through school, I got A's and strong A's, and so it was like, even to get a B could feel like, what's wrong with me?

Like, oh my gosh, I'd cry if I got B's. Oh my gosh, be so happy.

Looking at my list, sometimes I can get into that performance mindset of I got, you know, what, 10, 12 things in my outer circle. And if I've only done half of them, 50%'s an F, people. And I can feel that, like, what's wrong with me? And what a dope I am. But then at other times, if I'm doing all 12, it's just like this checklist of check, check, check. I get an A, Like, I did everything. And when I'm in that mindset, I don't know that it's actually helping me very much because I'm just trying to kind of go through the motions versus really focus on health. And to me, health is something you can't. You don't grade, you don't get A plus on your health. It's a journey. It's progression. It's looking at what are the things I can do and if I only did one or two in my outer circle, then find gratitude for I'm glad I did those few things and I didn't relapse. So finding some joy and purpose in that, but that for me and maybe for others out there that can get into that performance mindset. The threes on the Enneagram we've talked about that you have to just when you pull this out, say, I'm not pulling this out to grade myself. I'm not pulling it out to mark how many I missed and then feel bad. I'm just looking at am I moving in the right direction and where are there opportunities to grow or learn or change something? And if you realize I'm not doing any of these things in my outer circle, then to ask the healthy questions of, well, why not and what am I missing? Or maybe there are like what I've seen a few times, what I wrote in my circle five years ago is maybe not what I'm doing now, but I have been able to look and go, oh, but here's some other things I have started doing that I could go ahead and put in that outer circle because they're part of me feeling fulfilled and happy. And so we change and adapt as people. So don't let this. I guess the point of what I'm saying is don't let this tool become a performance measurement because if it does, it can quickly become self defeating and something we criticize ourselves because we're not perfect and we have aspirational things like I'm going to do this and I'm going to exercise and I'm going to lose weight. And when we don't, then like, oh, what's wrong with me? But we want to focus on health and what am I doing to move in that direction? And when we're moving that direction, be grateful.

Totally. Yeah. And so even though it may be super weird that you're as a betrayed spouse using a tool called the relapse prevention tool, we're just telling you, reframe it. This is such a powerful tool and it helps us identify the behaviors we don't want to do or want to avoid and what it actually like, we literally map out what it could look like for us to be healthy. So create those lists of unwanted behaviors that you have as a betrayed spouse. What are the guardrails I need to put in place and then what healthy habits are going to help me be the healthiest version of myself and continue that trajectory for me. So if you are someone who's experiencing betrayal or has experienced that in your past, this is a tool you should use today. Regardless of where you're at, this will be very, very helpful. So, Heather, thank you for just. I mean, you did tons of research on this. I can see all the notes that you wrote on the page. Thank you just for being here with us.

Yeah, this was fun.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is looking for help, go to PureDesire.org and start your healing journey today. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, do it. If you are a subscriber rider of you, it helps others find the podcast. And lastly, never stop being healthy.