195 - Stories Of Healing: Clint & Charity Muñoz

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Hey, hey, hey. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 195 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

All right, all right, all right.

He is. Okay. His career has gotten so much better in the last 10 years. And anybody who's a movie buff knows exactly what I'm talking about. Dallas Buyers Club. I mean, I don't know if I'd say people should watch it, but I'm just saying that is when Matthew McConaughey's career took a huge shift in the right direction.

I guess we're each entitled to our own opinion. I'll kind of stick with some of the classic McConaughey's, you know, like Sahara, you know, the popcorn movies. That's what I know him for. He gets into those serious. Like that movie you just mentioned did not even appeal to me. It just looked, I don't know, funky.

He just won an Oscar. It's the first Oscar he's ever won.

And how many Oscar movies are exactly what I just said? They're funky. That's a weird.

So depressing and sad and awesome. Okay, that was a good. That might be one of my favorites that you've done. I'm just throwing that out there.

Okay.

No, all right, all right, all right.

Okay.

So today we had Clint and Charity Munoz on the podcast, and they have their own ministry, their own podcast called Restore to More. And we talked to them just about their story.

Yeah, I connected with Clinton Charity a couple of months ago and got to know them a bit. And I think what I was just impressed by is being a young couple who's fairly early in their recovery story. I mean, just chronologically speaking, they've been married seven years. It's a couple years ago they really faced their crisis. And so it's neat to hear their fresh perspective, their young perspective, and how willing they are to say, we want our story to help other people. Because as they bring up in the episode, they say, we know we're not the only ones, but here we're sitting in these groups where we're, like, the youngest person there by a decade. And we're like, where are the people our age? And so I hope for all of us, no matter what age we're at, you're encouraged by their perspective, because they really shared a ton of great stuff in their story.

Yeah, they really did so we've got a great episode for you, but a couple things. Real quick. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms now, including Audible, and if you give us a review, it helps other people find the podcast. And you can follow us also on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, earedesirepdmi. You can search full episodes now on YouTube. Just search pure Desire Ministries. We want to circle back real quick to our Sexual Integrity 101 video course. And this has been out now since August of 2020, and it's seen a lot of traction. A lot of people are going through it, but we just want people to remember that this is a great starting point for sexual integrity and really starting to change the culture in their church.

Yeah. You know, as we think about, again, the story that Clint and Charity share, they early on in their story looked for help, and no one knew what to do. And I just think that testifies to why we made sexual integrity 101. Because we want parents, we want pastors, we want leaders, we want youth leaders. We want our society in general to be educated and equipped. That when someone is looking for help, to say, hey, I understand what you're going through and here's some next step. Here's what the recovery and freedom journey looks like. Because otherwise, we just often throw a book at a problem or we say, well, boy, I'm sorry to hear that. Hope it gets better, and we're not really a part of the solution. So that's where I hope every single person feels that desire to say, I want to be equipped in this area. And the more that we're equipped, the more God can use us, I believe, to help other people.

Yeah. And to find more information and to purchase the course, go to PureDesire.org101. And here is our time with Clint and Charity Munoz. Clint and Charity Munoz, right? Did I say that right? Is that right, Munoz? Okay. I just get really insecure sometimes, and you just wonder, are you going to mess it up? Welcome for the first time to the Pure Desire podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for having us. We feel honored to be on the show.

Yep.

So, Nick, you were on their podcast recently and got to hear some of that, and that was really cool and just got to know you guys a little bit more, some of your ministry. You're also interviewing a lot of our friends, people who are in the same space. And so we thought it just made sense to get you guys on and to hear your story.

Yeah. Thanks for having us. We're pumped.

Yeah. Well, we'll get into your story in just a minute. But first for our listeners, why don't you guys take a minute and just introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about your ministry. Restored to More.

Great. Yeah, we're Clinton Journey Munoz. We've been married for seven years.

I'm glad you elected me.

Apparently, seven years is funny. I. Okay, cool.

Like, it is Covid. I feel like I just can't even count this year. So, yes, seven years. We have three little boys, four, two and one. Wow. And Discovery Day happened for us in our marriage. I had found infidelity two years into our marriage. Then we had Discovery Day number two, a year and a half after kind of was the breaking point. And both started seeking help. And I felt like God kind of tugged it on my heart, like, hey, I want you to do something with this. And so we launched Restored to More, a podcast in August, and we've been just rolling with it ever since.

Yeah, we have found that during recovery, a lot of the guys are directed one area of recovery and the women are directed to another area for support, but there isn't a lot of collaboration on how do we help that couple find restoration and reconciliation in their relationship. And so Restored to More was birthed for that purpose of helping couples rebuild intimacy after infidelity and betrayal has occurred when it's linked to pornography.

Yeah, it's such a cool thing, too. I mean, I feel like that's one thing. You know, my experience, when one person struggles in a specific area, specifically in the church, we see often that we go to help that person or we go to help support the spouse, but rarely is it like both at the same time. And so it's cool that you guys have that. That bent to what you do, seeing that it's a holistic healing thing. So. So we're excited. Like Nick also said, excited to hear your story. So when did you guys realize. And Charity, you kind of alluded to this already. When did you realize sexual brokenness was an issue and when you needed to actually seek help for it?

Yeah, for me, I first saw pornography when I was 11 years old, and it became pretty compulsive right away. Just because of the life circumstance I was in. I reached out right away for help and it kind of was like this ongoing realization of needing more. You know, I'm grateful for the people that tried to give me advice and help. I believe they're well meaning people, but I also believe they were pretty uneducated and unhelpful in a lot of areas. So it was. It was a consistent theme that I needed help when I was in. I mean, that's like elementary school, and then again in junior high, and then again in high school and again in college. So I would say there's repeated unfortunate patterns of acting out that made me aware of the need for. For help in the sexual brokenness area, for sure. Hmm.

So you reached out to someone at 11 years of age?

Yeah, it was actually my junior high pastor. I think I was. I was probably. Probably was a year later, probably was 12, and I was in seventh grade when I asked for some help. And he just gave me like a book to read, actually. It was crazy. He gave me actually the 12 step recovery, AA guide to sexual Healing. And I was in junior high.

And here you go, buddy. Good luck.

Here's this huge, like, 5,000 pound book.

Yeah.

And I wasn't gonna, like, lug it to my school library and be like, oh, Clint, what are you reading? Like, oh, I'm just reading aa, you know, essays stuff. Yeah, you know, it was very unhelpful, unfortunately.

Yeah. Well, I just think that's amazing because I find a lot of guys, you know, pornography or whatever comes into their story early on. They don't know how to deal with it. And often there's some cry for help, whether to a parent, a pastor, just like, hey, what do I do with this? And if they don't really receive what I might call a warm welcome, or someone's like, man, so thankfully tired, that can become like their one time of reaching out. And it's like, okay, well, I guess there's really no help available. I just got to figure it out by myself. And I think it's remarkable that you asked for that help. And, you know, in many ways, God now posturing you guys to be there to help. As people get to the point of asking in their own lives. I'm curious for you, Charity, when in your relationship did you become aware of Clint's struggles? I mean, is this something you guys talked about when you were engaged, or did it only come up when you found stuff later in the marriage?

Yeah, you know, I think people always say, like, love is blind. And I really do believe that when your emotions are so high and so full of passion that you just, you know, you miss things. And so I was so enamored by who Clinton was and our relationship.

Well, look at him. He's a good looking guy.

I know. It's like a live Thor.

Wow, that is a compliment. That was like, next level.

We're watching Marvel Right now. So, you know. Yeah. So when we actually, before we actually started courting, Clint was like, hey, I need you to know some things about me before, you know, we really make this kind of serious. And for pursuit of marriage. And he sat me down, he said, hey, you know, I just want to let you know that I've struggled with pornography and actually led me, when I was on a missions trip, I lost my virginity to a prostitute. And he was very convincing. And the fact that, hey, this was a struggle in the past, it's not my present and it's not who I am. And so I just like, believed it. And I think I was really naive. I can't believe I didn't ask myself any questions. I can't believe red flags didn't go off. Like, you lose your virginity to a prostitute, that's a big frickin deal. And I can't believe that I didn't like, question that. And my thought process was just like, well, everybody's got issues and if you're not doing that now, then, you know, that's okay. And I, you know, I have my own baggage too. So if you're saying that you're good now, then awesome. Let's just, you know, let's roll with it. And there's forgiveness. And so that was kind of my naivety to it. And I really didn't know much until when we got married. Then little things came out here and there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We feel like the past is in the past until we realize it's not, and then we have to deal with it. And so in your introduction, you shared, you know, actually maybe two significant times of discovery within the marriage. What, as you guys began to realize the need for help, that something needed to be addressed here. What were some of the big hurdles that you had to face early on in that journey?

Yeah, yeah. For me, the hurdles were, again, am I going to be surrounded by people that aren't going to give any help? And so am I going to get.

Another big book of recovery?

Seriously?

Exactly. I've already got one.

Yeah, yeah, thanks.

Exactly. And you know, unfortunately, that did repeat itself. We. We were directed to a pastor of a fairly large community and we got on the phone and he was the only person we'd ever really told that now we struggle and this is affecting our relationship and our marriage. And his advice to charity was to wear me out sexually, that obviously I was acting out because I wasn't getting enough sex or exciting sex. And so she essentially tried to become somebody that is created in Pornography. And he told me that I need to memorize more scripture, that my problem was cognitive understanding of the verses and how to use them. So I. So we followed his leading. We just thought, okay, we're going to do that. And so she followed his leading in that area. And as you guys probably know, it just accentuated my addiction even more levels because I was having addicted sex. And I started getting these three or five note cards of verses, and I was like, I was getting my steps in for sure, because I was walking the neighborhoods, and I was doing 10,000, 20,000 steps a day trying to memorize scripture. And anytime I was tempted, just like. But it didn't work. And so really what we lacked were leaders in our life that understood addiction, that understood the brain chemistry, that understood betrayal and the trauma of it all. And so we lacked those resources and those people, for sure.

Yeah. It's funny, too, because I think it's easy. And I'm sure even in your journey, I know for me, it's easy to blame those people. Like, you should have known better, like. And I think that that's something, especially as an addict, it's easy to just shift the blame to somebody else.

Right.

We do that all the time.

Yeah.

Even though it may not be that person's fault, they're an easy scapegoat for us. And so we just throw it that way, their way. But they mean well. Like, they just don't know better. And that's, like, the sad part. One of the things we talk about here is you have to have grace that. Like grace and mercy to accept this person, hear their story, be on the journey with them, but then also competency to actually put something into place or into play for this person, to actually help them get recovery. And that really is our heart for the church, is not that we need to stop memorizing scripture or stop giving our bodies to our spouses. There are definitely some unhealthy ways to do that, but it should also be partnered with this. As you're talking about the understanding of woundedness and neurochemistry and having that competency piece and what addiction really looks like.

So true. And you can only imagine when you're being told, these are the first people we're telling about all of this, there's just so much more shame because now the advice that they're telling us isn't working. And now we're like, man, we're really messed up, you know? And I'm hearing this advice from. I'm hearing the advice that they're giving him. And some of the men were just saying like, hey, bro, just stop. Just don't do it. You know, And I remember thinking of.

Your wife up and just want it bad enough.

And then I remember adopting that mindset too. I'm like, dude, just stop. Like, why can't you stop if this is advice that other men are giving you? Like, you know, that's. That was. Now my mindset is like, hey, just stop doing it. And you know, just. Just do what they're telling you and you should be good. And. And it was just because of a lack of education around addiction. And, you know, so it was very difficult for us in the beginning to really understand the process of healing and what that was going to look like healthily, to actually heal and see freedom.

So, I mean, what you're talking about now is some strategies that people were trying to help you implement that didn't work. What were some other strategies that you guys had tried or had heard and didn't work for you?

Yeah, I think that didn't work. As far as pornography and addiction was also just accountability groups where it's like, hey, you know, just meet up with guys regularly and just talk about it versus dig deep into the roots. We're big believers that we have to understand that pornography and sexual addiction is really. It's the solution of a problem that's deeper. Right. It's irrational behavior to meet a legitimate need in our hearts. And so we weren't taught that. Right. I was just a guy and it's like, oh, it's every man's struggle and all this kind of stuff. And for charity, again, it was normalizing it, but it was interesting because women can normalize it. Every guy struggles, so just forgive him and it's okay. And so the strategies that we were told was put up accountability software, which again, we're all for. I'm not against that, but it's in the proper context.

There's a.

There's a place for that when you also are doing work with potentially. I mean, in my case, I needed therapeutical work. I needed people who understood it because I had no understanding of what was going on in my wife's heart. When I was watching and viewing pornography and involved in masturbation. I had no idea what was happening to myself as I repeated that it was getting worse and worse. Yeah.

And I was trying. Then something else that we did is a trial and error for sure was I was then becoming his accountability partner and, you know, and him confessing to me and talking to me And I'm thinking, I can handle it. Like, I. All I wanted was I just wanted to help him. And so I'm like, if this is any way that I can help you, then I'll do it. Not realizing how much that was going to damage me in my heart and my brain and even just for our relationship was just totally unhealthy.

Yep. Yeah. I can so echo that. And I know many, many people listening of honesty without understanding and transformation is just really, really painful because we just keep coming through that cycle of being honest again. In accountability groups, I think can be the same way of I'm learning to be honest, which is. It is necessary. It's good. But when that's all that we rely on to say, well, if you just, like you said, Clint, if you just meet with guys every week and you're honest and accountable, it'll work. It's like, well, accountability is a piece of recovery, but it's just a piece. And if we think that's all we need, then we lack the deeper understanding to actually create transformation. It just becomes really, really painful. And I think a lot of couples have walked in that time of we're taking some of the right steps, but it's not changing. It's just getting more painful. So it sounds like for you guys, you walk through a period of this, and then there's another time of discovery and really a new path where things start to click, things start to actually come together, and change starts happening. So tell us a little bit about that. Like what. What was different that time? What led to things really falling into place in terms of transformation for Clint and for your relationship?

Yeah, I think for me, what happened was we decided to. Or we got some counsel. And it was in one of those sessions where I came face to face with the denial that I was actually believing. And as you guys know, men are master compartmentalizers. And I was compartmentalizing my addiction outside of my faith walk, outside of our business, outside of my relationship with charity. And it was in that moment where I realized that that was a cancer bleeding into everything. And so it was a simple question. The counselor. There was a couple that was counseling us, and. And the wife looked at me and said, how do you think it makes your wife feel knowing that you've been cheating on her since you have gotten married? And I responded very quickly in the addict and said, well, I actually haven't had sexual intercourse. I wouldn't really call it, like, cheating on her. And. And then that. And me trying to, like, explain my way around the semantics of a word. My wife just crumbled on the couch next to me, just started bawling and couldn't breathe. And it was the first time where somebody actually voiced what she was feeling. And. And she was like, okay, I know that you're trying to make sense of this, but can you look at charity and then try to like, let's really be real about what's going on right now. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I've been cheating on her since I married her. And that's why we are very big believers that pornography is cheating. It's giving a piece of my heart and soul to something that is not my wife. And so when I justified it for my whole life, that it wasn't really infidelity, it's not really cheating, all this kind of stuff. And so there was denial broken there. I finally got around men. I went to groups where men were open about this being an addiction in their life and a stronghold and an area of brokenness. And it was the first time ever I was around other men. They were like, yeah, dude, you're messed up, and I messed up too. And we're all messed up. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm not a monster, right? So I wouldn't say there was like one big click, but there was a series of clicks where it was like, wow, clicking in. God's forgiveness and understanding that. Clicking in. And what were the. Or the deep rooted childhood traumas, maybe small T traumas that really led to an addiction and those kinds of things that really helped out with my healing process for sure.

Yeah. I think the more sobriety he got then, the more he could think clearly and really analyze the decisions he was making. So it was like more aha moments, you know, every couple months because there's more sobriety, which meant you can really see things differently from a new lens and perspective. So he came back from counseling and, like, got involved in all this stuff, had a sponsor, sees that therapist and was like, killing it. Coming home, he was like, I feel free. I'm seeing him grow, change, transform. And I'm like, well, I'm just laying on the couch bleeding to death. I'm glad you feel great. But now your secret sin is now put on me and I feel like I'm dying. So I was like, I thought if he just got help for the issue, then that would fix our relationship and I'll be good. But sobriety didn't equal intimacy for us. It was. I too needed to gain the Support for my own healing and for healing our relationship. And so I started going to my own groups and seeing a therapist. And that really helped both of us is when I started, really. Then I got to understand. I got to start to understand what was going on with me and how I was experiencing trauma and understanding Clinton's addiction, you know, and understanding just how to have compassion for him, that he was this little boy, you know, who saw an image and he now was starting. He was using it to soothe himself as a little boy, you know, and realizing just the heavy weight of that. This was a drug, you know, it was like a drug addiction. You can't just say to a cocaine addict, hey, stop. You know, using cocaine, like, that's not going to work.

Right.

And so I think it really helped us come together when we both started learning what the other person was going. Going through. And Clinton wouldn't be able to come to me, and he wouldn't be able to understand where I was coming from if I first didn't understand what was going on with myself. And I think that's why it's so important for wives to understand trauma so that they can properly explain to them what is going on inside of them.

That's super good. Yeah. And I love in your story just how you guys expose the rationalization that I think takes place in the mind of an addict. How we do say, you know, it's not really cheating, you know, and we. The way I describe it, we miss the forest for the trees because I think there's things as strugglers, and this can be male or female, that we hold on to, to kind of keep. Hold on to our dignity or. Well, it's not really wrong because I didn't go to this level or it's not really cheating. And there is an element of truth to it because it's not the same as a physical relationship. So you were focused on that little tree of, well, see, it's not this, but we're missing this whole forest. But yeah, it is the same in that I'm turning my heart away from my wife. I'm looking to someone else to satisfy me, whether I mean to or not, Making her now feel compared to them. So in all these ways, the forest says it's the same, it's cheating.

Yeah.

Now, is it exactly the same? No. But if we keep hanging on to those rationalization structures, I know for me, it was the same one. Or also that, well, it's not really wrong because I didn't do, you know, and I would compare to Forms of pornography or things that I knew were out there that. Well, I would never go to that.

Yeah.

This is just, you know, pretty pictures. And it's really confronting that rationalization that we need those. Those moments where a counselor or a trusted advisor or someone who understands can really look at us and say, here's the truth and help us recognize it. And when we let go of that rationalization, then we can enter into reality in a new way, and it's super powerful.

Totally agree, 100%. I think as guys, we justify that kind of stuff all the time.

Yeah. And it's interesting too, because if you think about it, you say that long enough, and then you do start watching those things, and then you do start acting out with other people. Like novelty and upping the ante continues to happen in addiction. And so maybe you're not doing those things now, but if you continue in this pattern and this justification or writing off basically that you are not all bad and you're not doing stuff that's wrong, you could get to that point. Okay, so. And this is. I love this question because I feel like for everybody, it can be so different. I mean, we all know that there are some specific steps that need to happen when you're healing from sexual brokenness or from betrayal trauma. But in you guys experience, what were some key elements for you on your journey as you healed from your addiction and then charity as you healed from betrayal?

Yeah. No, it's a great question, Trevor. And I think too, I didn't even understand that this was part of my recovery process when I first started. Right in the beginning, I did programs that were more about behavior modification, and it was more like, let's just get this thing under control. And I think there is a place for that, because if a guy is consistently relapsing, he's not going to be able to dig deeper. But as I got to longer lengths of sobriety and I met different people with philosophies and different groups, I understood the importance of digging deep and really asking myself, when did this really start happening in my life? And what made it a compulsive behavior? And really what is the compulsive behavior reacting to in my life? Right. What is it the solution? It's the medicine. It's actually a medicine that I'm taking, trying to cure something deep down. What is that that I'm trying to fix deep down? And so it took. It took months and months of really discovering really the core beliefs and the root values that are not grounded in God's truth, they're not in God's word, but they were things that were so real for me because it was an experience. And it was the feelings of, I am. I'm unsafe, I'm insecure, really, I'm. I don't. I don't measure up. You know, maybe I'm not lovable in my own state. I have to be somebody different. I have to perform to be loved. And so as those things were discovered in my own life, I was now realizing, wow, when these things happen, these are the triggers that actually occur and it recover. You've probably heard, say, the triggers before the trigger. I think a lot of times we can look at halt. And that's a great. That's a. That is a great description of a trigger. But normally there's something even below that that was related to our childhood. And I think I hate hearing about this. It's all about my childhood. My, oh, it's my childhood again. But it's true. It comes down to that a lot of the time that it's what we experience in our formative years that we're still trying to medicate. And for me, pornography and masturbation, sexual behavior. Acting out was really just the cure to try to solve these inner insecurities, these inner wounds, these childhood wounds. And so now it's really having a game plan for when I am triggered. There are still things that happen almost daily, for sure, weekly that arise in our life. With finances, with parenting, with being a father, with work and business, with colleagues, with friends, with family. There are things that happen all the time that really, they kind of flick that trigger on, and all of a sudden, boom, I'm triggered because of a childhood insecurity or a childhood wound. And so now what keeps me from going back to things is addressing it in a healthy way and having those men that I can call and talk through it. Maybe. I still have a therapist that I go to on a regular basis. I still have counselors in my life. I still have an accountability group. And it's really talking about those issues before they. Before I feel like I have to just medicate my emotions. So that's really what's worked for me today in the recovery process.

Yeah, I think it's all about to offer my end is it's having the perspective of to prepare rather than repair before something happens. Right. And it's preparing yourself for when triggers are going to arise. Because triggers are going to arise whether you like it or not, because of the situation that you're in. And so what's your game plan for me individually, what am I going to do when a trigger arises? Right. And so I have my own personal game plan that I do so that I can start coming back to reality. Because a trigger makes you feel like you're on a completely different world. And my main goal now is just, okay, how do I get back to planet Earth so I can start doing the normal day to day activities. And if I do not have a game plan in place, then I'm going to remain on that planet all day long and it's going to be destructive for everyone and anything that I come into contact with. Another thing is having a game plan for, and I know a lot of people don't talk about this, but having game plan for, you know, if your husband slips or has a relapse, you know, that was huge for me. I remember reading a book and Clinton was in his group and I was taking some self care and I remember reading a book and it said, do you have a game plan in place for if your husband has a relapse? And I remember thinking to myself saying, well, my husband's not going to relapse, like there, I don't even want to like think about that. If I think about it, then it's going to happen. And so I don't want, you know, and it was just like this naivety. But I think I felt it in my spirit that God was like saying, charity, just like do the activity. And I'm like, I don't want to do an activity. But I did it. And no joke, that night he came.

Home and I admitted a real, admitted that's crazy.

And I was like, okay, what do I know that I need to do? And I went to my game plan and I did it. And so I, because then, then you can have a conversation together. But if you don't take care of yourself and you start to try to communicate, you're just looking for destruction and damage. And so my biggest thing is really, you know, prepare before repairing and get those game plans in place for yourself. And then you can get game plans and self game plans in place for your relationship together.

Yeah, it's so good. I love that for both of you having a plan, whether it's a plan to deal with triggers, a plan to deal with relapses. And I, I think you voiced it Charity, that for too many of us we just in this naivety and in some ways our Christian faith can work against us where we're like, well, I've got freedom now and Christ is with me. And we're all good. And we want to believe. Like, okay, now it's in the. We're back to that. The past is in the past. And it's like, if we can accept the reality that we're human beings in process, and yes, we're redeemed and saved, but we still have a work of sanctification to go through, and we're likely not going to be perfect. And. And we say it all the time in this podcast, it doesn't mean that we have to relapse as people, but it means we have to be aware of that possibility exists for every single one of us. And if we have a plan how to deal with the triggers, a plan how to deal with the relapse, a plan as a couple and as individuals, like, we're going to be able to handle that a lot better than just in this naivety thinking, oh, it's not going to happen, then it does. And we kind of feel like we're right back to square one if we don't know what to do. And we're overwhelmed and we're angry. And so I just. I love how you brought clarity to that in your story, and I think that'll encourage a lot of people.

Totally agree, 100%.

I just have to say this because it's funny. I am taking an Old Testament course right now, and all you have to do is read through really one. But you could read through the first five books of the Bible and just watch how God provides for people and sets them free and breaks them free, and they continue to go back to their old ways. And I don't know. It's so hard. It's so hard to read it. But I just finished numbers, and they're like, we want to go back to Egypt now? Can we just go back to slavery? That'd be great. Like, we know you've done all these cool things, but, like, the human condition is that way. And I think that. I know for me, especially when I first got into my first leading my first group, I thought, okay, I've got it under control. Like, I'm not going back. This is like, I got it. I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. But in reality, I didn't have a realistic view of my own humanity, my own brokenness. And I think that we need to, again, not use it to justify wrong behavior or relapses or isolating, whatever it may be. But we also just really need to be real. We need to be real about the fact that we're broken. And until those parts of us get healing, brokenness is still gonna pop its ugly head in our lives. And so I think that we have to. That's just something I feel like currently in my life I'm being reminded of that I need to understand that brokenness is still there and not to have too high a view of myself, that it's like beneath me. That relapse could happen again.

Yeah, it's good.

So, you know, a lot of couples have had to deal with pornography and infidelity in their relationships. And honestly, a lot of couples have gone to counselors or been to a pure desire group and have found some health and recovery. But not as many couples have gotten to that point of being really public with their story and creating a ministry and putting their story on their website and YouTube on your website, by the way. You guys do a great job telling your story and being honest and real. And like I said, not everybody does that. So with an issue like this that can be so private and personal and messy, what was it for you guys that helped you determine or just find that courage to share your story and know that you wanted to?

I never wanted to. I was so. I think every guy's like thinking, all right, I'm gonna get in this recovery group. It's gonna last. I know it's 12 month program, but I'll do it in three months and then I'll get back to business and back to just being a star player for the company. I mean, I think that's every guy.

Yeah.

And, you know, it wasn't until I finished a Christ focused 12 step group, and it was in that last step where it's like, what are you gonna do with your story? And I was praying about it and did I want to go and like, be a sponsor for people or what that looked like. And it was like God just kept tugging on my heart. And it wasn't like some audible voice, but this leading of the Holy Spirit to say, go ask your wife what her vision is. And so I came to Charity and I said, hey, Charity, God told me you have some vision. And she was like, oh, my gosh, I want to do a podcast. I want to write a book. I want to coach couples, I want to do workshops. Yes. And I was like, oh my gosh, hit the brakes. But I knew it was God leading. And so the very next day, we went out to Guitar center and bought podcast equipment and just like recorded a podcast and didn't put it anywhere. I just like, oh, my Gosh, that was crazy. And I really just came from the desire that if, you know, I can share my story in part, but my story is a repeated pattern of me going to about 18 different individuals at different times in my life seeking help. All of them were Christian men. All of them were men that I looked up to, and not one of them came alongside me in the way that I needed to have another man come alongside me. And so it was really in that pain that there was a purpose that was birthed. I felt like God was wanting me to do that.

It's beautiful.

And. And I still don't love it every day, just to be totally transparent about that. Yeah, maybe you guys love me. Do. Every day. There it is. Like, God, when do I get to go and become something really cool?

And.

And God's like, this is really cool. And I'm like, thank you.

Yeah, when do I. When do I get to go and not have to, like, be a real person and share my insecurities, really be known in order to do life right? Like, I'd love to just, like, hide in the closet and play Game Boy for a while. Can I just do that? Like, let's go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And God's like, definitely not.

Yeah, exactly.

So. Yeah. And Cherry, go ahead.

Yeah. And, you know, I want to talk from. Also. I always get reminded of. From where we started, and there was a lot of shame on both of our ends, you know, that's why our restoration journey and recovery journey is so long, you know, is because there was a lot of shame in not feeling comfortable, you know, sharing our story and sharing what was going on and admitting that it had impacted me. And yet, at the same time, like, from my perspective, there was a lot of shame because I wanted to protect my husband. You know, I wanted. I thought me not telling people was actually helping. And in reality, it was more damaging to me and him, you know, because then there was no. There's no accountability, you know, but I was. I was afraid of people judging us, people judging him, the reputation that he had. I always thought, well, it's his story to tell. Well, no, it's our story, because it definitely impacted me. And so after there was that breakthrough, you know, I really believed that God had placed it on my heart. And he. And he had said, you know, in your obedience, there's going to be somewhat somebody else's deliverance. And I just really held onto that. Like, when I am going to be obedient, it's going to open up doors for other, you know, people for Them to be able to feel like they can share their story. And, and I just, I, you know, I really felt that there was a lack of younger couples talking about this and.

Please preach, Charity, preach.

It's not that this isn't going on in our generation. It is, it's more rampant than it was before. And because we are, you know, we're the millennials, we have the computer on our phone at all times. So our generation with pornography looks completely different than the generations before. And so it is going on out there. And so we wanted to be the couple that was young and said, hey, you know, like this is our story. And, and we wanted them to feel safe enough to hopefully share their story and to feel not alone and to be able to talk about it and to stop normalizing pornography and that all men struggle and that it only affects him. It affects both of you. You guys are one. You know, it affects your marriage bedroom. It affects everything. And so we just, we wanted to be a younger face for couples that they can, they can get healing faster so they don't have to go to a group so that, you know, they're not going to a group after separation, they're not going to a group after divor. They're in a group because every time that Clinton and I went to a group, you know, we were the youngest ones in that group. And I get it, like, going to a group, I'm like, I'm getting goosebumps as I'm talking about it right now. But going to a group, there was so much shame around it. You know, we thought recovery meant that we're going to be in recovery our whole life and we never wanted that title. And I remember walking up the steps door, my first recovery group, and just being so pissed off and being like, gosh dang it, like, I'm not the one. Like, I'm showing up to this group because of somebody else, not because of me. And I walk into this group and there's a group of, I don't know, 20, 30 women. And they're all, no offense to them, great people, glad they were there getting help. But they're all 56 year olds, you know, and I'm 20 something, I'm 25. And I just remember sitting there and being like, gosh, like, am I really the only one? You know, Like, I know I'm not. But they're just hidden in shame because nobody else is out there talking about it. So if we can just help one other couple who's our age, then, gosh, that's worth it. That's why we're doing what we're doing.

Let me just say this. Like, you are. And I mean, depending on. I could just see how you could feel maybe sometimes insecure inside of that. But you guys are changing culture is what you're doing. And I think that whatever level of influence God gives you, like, that's what you're doing around you. So the people that come to you and the fact that you're sharing your story, like, I get pumped up about what you're sharing. Like, I'm like, yes, let's go. I felt the same way.

I'm, like, fired up.

Come on, babe.

Right.

Clint went and grabbed his Thor hammer and is ready to, like, you know, I'm ready to. But, like, I.

It.

It is something that, like, I just want to affirm you. I just want you to hear, like, from where I'm sitting watching what you guys are doing. And even as you're sharing now, you are doing that. You are changing the culture. You are helping bring a voice to something that is going on, but also bringing that competency piece. Here's our story. Here's what we've learned. Here's what helps. And so I just. I commend you guys. I think what you guys are doing is amazing. So feel good about it.

Thanks, guys.

Yeah. Feel good about it.

Well. And what I think, I would point out, your experience, I would expect is common, that if someone in their 20s or 30s starts to really pursue healing, they can feel like, why am I, like, the only young person here? And what I think we're seeing is how many couples will wait and wait and wait until it is so broken and it's gotten so bad and they have no other options. And it's finally like, well, I guess we'll try counseling groups. And. And I look at that scenario and just say, what could we do to help convince the couples in their 20s and 30s when we know it's an issue, we know it's undermining intimacy and the kind of relationship we want to have? And even if it's at the point where only one half of the couple, the struggler, knows they're struggling, they haven't even told their spouse yet they know it's causing issues. And so it's that question, why are you waiting? Like, it's not going to get better over time, it will not get better by waiting. And so let's be the generation of people that doesn't wait until we're in our 50s and 60s and going, man, Our marriage is in shambles. If we're seeing those things happening, address it. Because as we're going to get to the next question, it can get a whole heck of a lot better. But if we wait and push it off, it won't happen. So I think that's what I would encourage all our listeners, as you hear Clinton charity story, like, they got to that point early in life, and now they get to enjoy the fruit and the benefits of it a lot longer.

Yeah. And the fruit of the continued hard work that it is, because I know with three young boys, life is crazy. So how have your relationship, I mean, because this is one of the outflows of getting healthy, is the impact on relationship. So how has it impacted your marriage? How has it impacted your relationship with your kids, friends, community? Talk about that.

Yeah. Oh, this is our niche. This is like, man, we could talk for a long time about this. We really excited about this, you know, so Cherry and I were married at 22 years old.

We.

We were so in love. We were infatuated with each other. She was the perfect person and still is, of course. And, and, you know, and so we. And so I just. What's crazy is you. When you have. Even if it's not addiction, just sexual brokenness in a relationship that isn't being talked about, what's happening is there is the inability to actually understand intimacy in its truest value. We don't believe that intimacy is. Is just sex. Actually. We believe that sex is the pinnacle of intimacy. So we thought, young people, we all want to have great sex. Right. Who doesn't want to have amazing sex? That blows your mind. And you both want it and you desire it, and it's awesome. It's a great experience, and there's no shame around it. And it's wholesome. And Sharon and I want that. And everybody, I think, wants that. That's married in the Christian world. Heck, that's why we get married. Because, like, I can't stop. I just jump on every time I see him. So we just got to get married because then we can do that, you know, and, and, and what happens is a lot of times we don't realize that there actually will be a brokenness in sex if it's not happening because of true intimacy. And intimacy is a wide range of experiences, but a lot of it is linked to being known and being understood and being accepted. And if there is a hidden thing going on, then it is. It is affecting our bedroom. It's affecting our relationship, it's affecting our communication. It's affecting the way we have a vision for our lives and our future. It's affecting the way we see each other and our in laws and our family relationships and our job and our culture. And so what has to happen is that this actually allowed charity and I Me being open about my addiction and. Or actually her discovering it and then me saying, yeah, you're right. You know, that process, because I didn't have. Not open.

That was a great description of disclosure. Just.

Yep, you're right. Really? It was. It was like, wow. Now we actually. The ground, the building has been leveled. I mean, since we brought up Marvel a lot. It was like the bomb just hit it. We thousand pieces, all we have is like a hole in the ground, which we are back to square one, which is amazing, because now we can build something that's built off trust and transparency. And we can have a connection. And we can be intimate outside of sex. We can be intimate emotionally. We can discover intimacy through conflict. We can discover intimacy through understanding. And through intellectual intimacy, we can actually have fun and have playful intimacy. We can have physical intimacy outside of sex. Holding hands and. And realizing now that the person whose hand you're holding is the real me. It's not a compartmentalized me. And what that does is that leads to a relationship that, in our opinion, is flourishing, and it's abounding in love. And it is an example. And we talk about this all the time because we believe that the biggest thing the world can show, the biggest way that the Christian world can show the rest of what Christ is about, is in that marriage. And unfortunately, right now, that sucks, because we have a huge, super high divorce rate. And it's the same inside and outside the church. And I believe that the rest of the world is wondering what is so cool about Christianity. Your marriages still fail. You're still about consumerism. You're still about achievement. You're still about an image. You have the same problems. Your kids are broken. You're all addicted. So where is this Jesus really at? And what we get to say is Jesus is in the midst of a couple saying, we want to come clean. We want to get work. We want to grow in this area. And we believe that couples that find reconciliation and restoration of each individual person become a walking billboard for the power of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, and your kids get to see that. Like, your kids literally are standing right next to that billboard every single day, and they're like, and that's what I'm pumped about. You got, like, three boys, man. We've got two. Okay, so we're like, we're almost there with you. We're stopping at two. Just so everybody. Everyone out there publicly knows both. Both of us have decided this. But what's so cool is that they get to see what it looks like to have intimacy with your spouse, what it looks like to treat people like that, to be real, to be known, and that they can also be known inside your house. So I'm pumped for the legacy you guys are creating.

Thanks.

Thank you. And, you know, I just want to share, you know, from my perspective, what freedom has done for us in our relationship. But, you know, it's. It's allowed him to pursue me because when you are in addiction, you are selfish, and all you think about is yourself. And so I remember. I mean, we joke about this all the time, but, like, one Valentine's Day, he gave me a gift, and he thought I was going to love it. And he spent like a thousand dollars on these, on this jewelry. And he was like, taylor Swift wore them on her concert. And I'm like, I don't. I'm supposed to like these. I hate jewelry. Like, I thought you would know this about me. And. And he was so offended that I didn't, like, it was just a wrong deal. But he was in addiction when this was happening. And I remember when all this. You know, when we started our journey of recovery, and I remember thinking, like, man, like, when is he going to start pursuing me again? When am I going to be treated as the princess that I deserve? You know, after all this that he's put me through, and in reality, he couldn't start pursuing me yet because he had so much healing, that need to be put in place. Right? There was so much pressure that was weighing on him, and I didn't understand that until I started getting educated. But through the time of recovery and allowing space and healing to take place and seeing freedom and sobriety, he now pursues me. And more than ever. I mean, he knows my favorite drink of coffee, which just sounds silly, but at the time, he didn't because he was so wrapped up in himself and an addiction. And now he knows me. I mean, he knows everything about me. He's my best friend. Now. Our foundation of marriage is so strong because infidelity had happened, and we had the opportunity. When infidelity happened in our marriage, we can either look at the mess that was made and just cover it back up and just pretend like nothing happened, or we can say, wow, okay, we really need to clean this up. This is going to take a lot of work. There's a lot of digging to do here, but let's take out a lot of old roots. Because it wasn't just infidelity to opened up so many other doors that we got to address now that needed healing. You know, childhood traumas on both ends, me having a lack of empathy and communication skills. I mean, there was a lot there, and now we have been able to work on all of that. And so our marriage just feels like there's. There's new soil, new roots, and they are stronger than ever. Like, if something's going to come and knock on our marriage door, like, you bet we are, like, arm in arm, and we're like, we're going to take you down because we've been through it. We've been through the ringer. We know we can get through something else. And so our marriage stands on such strong roots now. Our foundation is so firm, and we are just so united. And I feel like that is how Christ intended for marriage to be and for you to see one another, to know everything about the other person. And, yes, our sex life is completely into night and day, you know, because he wasn't present, he wasn't there. And so we really got to redefine that. And now it's beautiful. And we're doing it not out of the task like I did in the past, not something. Because it was a duty. It is now the pinnacle of all the other intimacies being filled. So freedom is so worth the hard work.

Yeah. I really appreciate the way you guys are painting that picture for others, because I know we'll have people listening that they're maybe still in some of the rebuilding. The building has more recently been demolished, and they're looking at a lot of.

Rubble, the hole in the ground.

It can be easy to even envy a story like Clint and Charity, like, oh, it must be nice for them. But what I hope everyone hears is this is the kind of future we get to hear about at Pure Desire all the time. I mean, it's. It's not like, oh, once in a while a couple makes it. It's like, no, if. When couples do the hard work, when they go through counseling or groups or whatever is needed for them, they apply the principles, they use the tools. They. They do the hard work of conversation in the home. And, you know, coming up with those plans, like, this is the kind of stories we get to hear, and you guys are, you know, telling it wonderfully. But I just. I want to make sure listeners know this isn't like the exception to the rule. This is what we hear happening. And Clint and Charity are just putting in a way that we all see. Okay. That's what I want for my marriage and for my future and my legacy. And so we really appreciate you guys sharing where you're at. And so tell us a little bit more about the ministry and about being starting. Restored to more. How is God using you now to help others?

Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And real quick, it does not mean that we're perfect. Right? We still have our fights. We still have here.

Well, except Charity. You said she's still perfect, so I just wanted to be clear, like. Yeah, okay.

Thank you.

No problem. Because it doesn't. It's not like we don't have those tips. And we are three boys, man. You have different. You don't see eye to eye on things and relationships, all that stuff. So that still comes up. But we definitely handle it differently than we handled it before. And we're grateful. I feel like we fight well today than just fighting bad, you know, Restored to more. It's been incredible. You know, we have been very blessed. We just started our ministry in August. So compared to everything you guys have done, man, we are like little babies. Just little babies hanging out in the space of helping people find healing and restoration. But it has been going great. We are doing our virtual workshops. We kicked off this year, 2021, just an adherence of CDC guidelines, all that kind of stuff going on. So. So we are doing it all virtual right now. We do coaching for couples. We come alongside them one on one or couples coaching, which we think is super awesome. Again, a lot of it is focused not on really recovery as far as like getting free from addiction, but really helping guys understand what their wives are going through and really increase the level of intimacy in their relationship. And Charity does guide women through the betrayal side of things, which is awesome. And the traumas that exist, as well as helping them understand what their husbands are going through. So a lot of our coaching is not really geared towards freedom from addiction, but really helping that couple find restoration. We do YouTube videos. We have an Instagram account. You can find out everything on our website, which is restoredtomore.com and we are just really excited about all that we are offering. Did I miss anything?

No.

We are writing our first book. We are about a third of the way through.

Sweet.

Our first book, Charity, just finished a workbook that is not in print yet, but it's in the editing format, so. So all those things are happening as well, which we're excited about.

That's super cool.

So stay tuned to good things coming from Clinton Charity.

That's right. Okay, so we normally end these episodes with this question. And this is just think of who's listening. Think of maybe a couple who was in the situation you guys were all those years back. What encouragement. Just think back to what it was like then. What encouragement would you give them now?

My gosh, you know, for the betrayed, I'll speak from a wife's perspective because that's our story. But from the wife's perspective, you know, I would say to get support, you know, talk to somebody about it and make sure that who you're talking to is a safe person, you know, somebody that you trust and isn't going to judge, you know, and maybe you don't have that person, but there are resources out there, you know, that there are safe people out there. And maybe that safe person is going to be a therapist right now. And so I would just say to find somebody because you deserve to get support too.

Yep.

And you know, and get healing and to find freedom and become the best version of yourself. Because it's not just the addict, you know, it's the betrayed too. And you're worth fighting for, you know, you're worth healing. You're worth becoming the best version of yourself. And so making sure you take care of yourself and doing whatever that looks like that may be self care stalking to safe people, but just prioritizing you in this, this time for sure.

Yeah, it's okay. Good word. I would tell the guys to not give up and that they're not alone. I unfortunately had most of the men come in my life that didn't admit their own failures. And if I could find somebody in my state of early 20s or late teens and say, listen, dude, like you're pretty normal, right? There are things about pornography that draw us in like a moth to the flame. And that's normal to even want to go there there. It's normal to be broken. It's normal to not measure up to what the culture says. We have to look like and sound like and be like. And it's normal to, to medicate that and to medicate and hide in secret. And it's also worth coming, coming clean and saying, me too. And there are men out there like you guys, like, like Nick, like Trevor that are willing to say, I struggle with this too. I too was drawn to pornography. I too was drawn to sexual brokenness as a way to heal the broken past of my life. And it's Worth getting plugged into guys like that. And you guys create amazing programs from what I hear about pure desire. Get plugged into one of the groups, get plugged into what you guys are offering, what you guys are doing, because there's amazing resources out there now. And it just takes the willingness. I think we're all scared to death that we're going to be viewed as a monster, that we're going to be viewed as a pedophile for looking at pornography, for looking at things that are ridiculous, for looking at things with bestiality. And maybe same sex attraction is one of the worst things that guys feel like, oh, my gosh, if somebody knew. I struggle with this, it's all over for me. And the reality is your masculinity was put there by God. And no behavior that we do can take away the masculinity that is in us men by the Creator. God created us in his image in that way. And we are still providers and protectors and we are men. And it is more manly to come out and say, I struggle with this than it is to hide it behind maybe, you know, whatever is a muscular build that we try to do as men or performance addicts or great scholarships and grades and achievements. It is more manly to say, I am broken, because that is how we truly can live out our masculinity.

It's good. Yeah. Good stuff. So good.

So as they said. Restoredtomore.com Correct. That's where we go to get their stuff. You can also look for them on YouTube.

Number two. Or spelled out number two.

Right.

Restored number two.

Okay.

Restored number two.

Number two. Not a number sign. We're not looking for. Hashtag restored. Number two. More. Com. And as you heard in Clinton, Charity's story, the path to healing and restoring relationships is far from easy, which I think you guys clearly attested to. It's not a straight line. You know, Charity talked about the potential of having relapse being a part of the story. But if you are intentional and you do commit to the process, healing and freedom and intimacy inside your marriage is very, very possible. Clay and Charity, thank you so much for the work that you do, and thanks for the time with us today.

Yes, thank you guys for having us. This is so much fun, pleasure to.

Be here and wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire here is here to help create a road map for your healing. You or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness. Go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness. And lastly, never stop being healthy.