197 - Accountability vs. Recovery Groups

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Good morrow, listener. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 197 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

It's a B E A U tiful day.

Yes, yes, yes. One of my favorite movies of all time.

Yes. Bruce Almighty.

That's right.

Classic.

That's right. And I mean, as. As heretical as it is to have Morgan Freeman as God, it was. It was a funny motif. I thought it was. I thought it was good.

He's got the right voice for it, so. That's right. Can we just pause and go back? Did you say, good morrow, everyone? Yeah. Good morrow. What? I don't think I've ever heard you say morrow.

You know what? You have the fun role of getting to decide something new to say every episode, and mine gets really boring. Okay.

That's why it was like he changed something. What is going on here?

Yeah, I'm trying to, like, I almost.

Made that my intro. Like, what was. That would have been good.

Okay. So we had Bob Vandermeer on, one of our clinicians and speakers and also contributor to some of our new resources that are coming out. Excited about that. We had him on to talk about the difference that we see between a traditional accountability group and recovery groups.

Yeah. Yeah. I think a very important conversation because what we have found for a lot of people in their experience, they're saying, I've done accountability for years, but I'm still struggling. And it can be discouraging because often what we have been taught in our faith model or through churches as well, if you just have accountability, you'll be okay. And many of us tried accountability for many years. And, like, I'm still not okay. And so that can create the shame. Like, man, there must be something really wrong with me, because even when I was accountable, I was still stumbling and having problems. And I think what we talk about today is just seeing in a helpful way that there are some deficiencies if we're only seeking what we traditionally define as accountability. So we try to analyze that, kind of look at the loopholes that. That cause people to get stuck and then hopefully cast a vision of what does it look like to have good, healthy recovery and be pursuing that with a group of others around us.

Yeah.

Well, it is a good episode. It's a short and quick one. Few more things. Few more other things. I'm just Good morrow.

Good morrow to you.

Okay. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. Follow us on social media. Earedesirepdmi. We have full episodes on YouTube of these episodes. I am just struggle bus today. Okay, let's talk really quick about team 58, this new thing that we're doing here at pure desire.

Yeah, Team 58 was built off a concept that we pulled From Isaiah, chapter 58 in the old Testament. In that chapter, Isaiah is talking about how if the people will honor God with their. Their lives. And in this case, it was how they were choosing to fast, that if they would honor God with that, that their salvation would come quickly, like the dawn and their healing would break forth.

And.

And it's this very encouraging vision of, like, the kind of people they will become. And by the end of that passage, it talks about how some of you will be those who rebuild the broken walls and restore the fallen cities, that because of their health and freedom, they will be a part of rebuilding cities and walls that have been torn down because of foreign enemies and oppressors. And we just look at that to say, as we are finding healing and recovery and freedom through Pure Desire, God is tapping on our shoulders to say, this healing wasn't just for you, that I want you to pay it forward. I want you to be a part of rebuilding broken lives, restoring families. And that doesn't mean we all become counselors or group leaders. I mean, if God calls you to that, that's awesome. But it is to say we can all be involved through our prayers, through our support, and through our giving. And so Team 58 has become our hopefully catchy name for those that are monthly recurring givers to Pure Desire that have just said, hey, we're a part of making this happen. We're a part of the mission. We're a part of seeing lives be rebuilt and families be restored. And we wanted to give that group a name and an identity to feel like they're together, a part of something. Because none of us can do this alone. I mean, not even me as the director of Pure Desire. Like, this is a team effort, and that team is comprised of everyone who is involved in praying, supporting, and giving. And so we want to encourage people to consider saying, could I be a part of that team? Even through a monthly 10 or $20 gift that gets you onto the team, and we'll send you some thank you gifts and just trying to create that identity, to say, hey, we're doing this together. We're rebuilding families, restoring lives, and that's a pretty awesome thing to be a part of.

And so if you want to join Team 58 and help rebuild families and rebuild marriages and rebuild communities, go to PureDesire.org give. All right, here is our conversation with Bob Vandermeer on the difference between accountability and recovery groups. Barber toe Robert Vandermeer, welcome back to the podcast.

Hey, thanks. Always a pleasure to be here. Gentlemen.

I don't know if.

Why do you laugh? Do you doubt it? I was wondering the same. I just doubt my joy.

Everything that you say. There's just this potential undertone of sarcasm and humor.

Everything.

Yeah, everything. All right. Well, anyways, today we are looking into what many might actually find is like a minutia or a very minor distinction when it comes to the realm of sexual health. But the difference we're talking about today does have some pretty big implications. We've had some conversations about this in house. Definitely we have some of this in our Q&As that we do in events. But we're going to talk about the difference between accountability and recovery groups. And again, it's something that we talk about a lot. But today we want to kind of break it down to five distinctions that we see between accountability and recovery groups. So the first one is, the first difference or distinction between the two is group responsibility versus personal responsibility. Bob, why don't you start us off with that one?

Yeah.

So, I mean, I think the group responsibility, I mean, this is something that comes up a lot with clients in particular, is they're kind of like, well, so what am I relying on my group to do for me? You know, like, I'm in there. We talk about the opposite of addiction being connection, relationship, being so key to all of this. And then they're in a group, like, what do I expect from these people that I'm in a group? You know? And so there's a lot of sifting out and redefining these. These ideas. So I think, like, group responsibility in an accountability group is that we're placing our, like, the outcome of our health on the interaction of the group members. In other words, if they do their job, then I'll be able to get to a place that's healthy, or then I'll be able to make progress in this direction versus in a recovery group, that responsibility, like, we don't place that onto them. Like, they participate, but they're participating in us owning our own health and our own responsibility. The genesis process, you know, a resource that we use on page one of chapter one says you can Only work on problems that you own. Yep. Yeah. I think that that's like a big difference between an accountability group, because you're kind of making them own your problem, versus a recovery group where you're saying, this is my problem and I own it.

Yeah. And it's. It's where we take issue with kind of the traditional approach to accountability groups. And it's what many of us learned. I know. It's what I learned that you go to a group of maybe a few other people and you're like, guys, here's my problem. Here's the thing I'm struggling with. And I give you permission to call me anytime, to check in with me anytime, to ask me anytime how I'm doing. And that feels noble and it feels good. It's like, oh, this is so healthy. But we miss how I have just deflected or deferred responsibility off of myself onto them. And I've used the illustration, like at conferences of taking a football and tossing it to someone else. It's like the ultimate buddy pass of saying, hey, buddy, you are now responsible. You are carrying the football for my recovery because it's up to you now to check in on me. And if you forget or if you don't or you're too busy or you call at a time when I'm busy, that's all on you. And the truth is, we're not going to recover if someone else is carrying the ball for our recovery. As Bob just said, you can't fix what you don't own. You can't face it if you're not carrying the ball for your own recovery. And so that's where we want to maybe unlearn some of what was handed to us. That is as nice as that feels to say, hey, you have permission to call me anytime. And you could still say that to a group. I'm not saying that's wrong, but along with it, we should say, but I'm going to take the initiative to reach out to you and on these days or at this time, and I'm going to self report how am I doing where I'm at in my progress, because now I'm carrying that responsibility for my recovery, and then I'm owning it and I can work on changing.

Yeah.

And the way I see it is an accountability group, a traditional accountability group, the one we're describing is basically like a cosmetic thing that we're doing that actually what I'm doing is I'm already living in denial. And if I view the group as the Responsible one here to help me with my health that actually just perpetuates my own denial of my own problem and my own responsibility. And so it's this cosmetic or outward thing that we do that makes it look like we're actually making progress, but nothing is actually taking place. There's no change that's happening there.

Yeah. It's kind of like with big organizations where there's ends up being some financial embezzlement by, like, the president or this, you know, the CFO or whatever. And they say, well, like, I, you know, my books are open. Like, people can come in and look at them whenever they want.

Right.

There's a big difference between saying, you can take a look at my books whenever you want and me monthly going to you and saying, here, here's my books. Look at them, please. Yep. Right. Or like, as a parent, you know, saying, oh, no, you can come and talk to me whenever you want to. I'm always available to you. Yep. Versus the parent going to their saying, let's sit down and hang out. Yeah. Right. It's not the same thing because people are afraid sometimes. Like, how many people in our groups say, well, yeah, I just didn't want to bother them. Right. Didn't want to bug them. That's not the. It's not the same thing, having open books versus, like, saying, here's my stuff. Take a look.

Yeah, well. And the other thing that can happen with that group responsibility, where I kind of put it off on them, it really can create a relationship dynamic that's not always healthy, because if I'm not having a great week and. And Bob calls, and I see his name like, oh, Bob's checking. Like, I don't want to do that. And now I feel like Bob's looking over my shoulder, and Bob's, you know, has these expectations of me, and I may even find I'm avoiding Bob and like, well, that's not going to be a good friendship or relationship, because I know why they're checking in. And so you got to be aware of, if I'm asking people to do that and they do, I might start avoiding those relationships, the very things I need in order to heal me.

Yeah.

So let's go into the next distinction between accountability groups and recovery groups that we see. And these are two words that in some situations are used interchangeably and maybe make sense in that context. But in terms of a group situation, we find these two are very, very different. So, Trevor, what is the difference between a group focused on sobriety and a group that's focused on health.

The two things that come to mind for me are one is focused on stopping a behavior and one is on about. And then the other. So accountability traditional tends to be about stopping a behavior, where recovery tends to be about what am I doing in the future, what am I pursuing, what are the things that I'm replacing that old behavior with. And then another thing that comes to mind for me is sobriety to me often communicates a reactive lifestyle where I'm reacting to what's going on around me or I'm reacting to this unwanted behavior where health is actually much more proactive that I'm going before myself and setting some things in place where I'm not just reacting to what happens, I'm putting things into place. So when certain things happen in life, that I can continue on in health. So sobriety is like, just don't do this one thing and health is doing all these other things in order to create health across the board holistically.

Yeah, yeah. I think with like the sobriety focused, that becomes like the litmus test or the measure of whether or not people are doing. Are doing what's. What's right, you know, and if you've got some people in the group that have been able to establish some sobriety and some people that haven't, then it becomes this performance oriented thing and where we. Where, yeah, maybe we celebrate some other stuff, but what we really want to celebrate is sobriety. And yeah, sure, like if you've got a betrayed spouse or you've had these negative consequences from your addiction, I mean, that's why you're in the group to begin with or, you know, from your behavior, you're in the group because of that. So sobriety is important. Yep. But if the group is sobriety focused, then it brings in these other dynamics that really can make it not a safe place. Whereas if we can celebrate any measure of progress, any measure of health from one day or one week or one month to the next, it's important that we can celebrate that. And I think in the recovery group, we're able to do that. We're able to look for these other measures instead of just being focused on sobriety.

Yeah, it's kind of the concept we hear in other circles of the dry drunk that, well, I'm at year, you know, two with no alcohol, but meanwhile, they're still raging at their kids. They're a workaholic, they have an unhealthy relationship with food. You know, they're in inappropriate physical relationships. Like, but hey, Two years, no alcoholic. All right. We haven't really addressed the underlying issues that are driving your behavior. And in that sense, as Bob mentioned, it becomes a very profound, performance oriented group that I'm. I'm just trying to perform well by not doing the bad thing. And then that makes me feel good and actually becomes a cover up to not do the deeper work of saying what led to this behavior all along, how was I using it to cope with pain or difficulty in my life? And until we see that, we're just likely transferring from one behavior to another. So maybe we've, we've stopped the porn use, but if now we're just redirecting that unhealthy expectation to our spouse, we may not really be in that much better of a place. Or if we've just redirected that energy into food or alcohol, like we're just still coping and medicating. We haven't addressed what's driving it. And it's why pure desire says all the time that we're not here to stop a behavior. We're here to change the way you do life. Because as you change the way you do life, not only will that behavior stop, but so will so many other unhealthy coping mechanisms that we've used. And so I echo what Bob said. Yeah, we do want to stop the behavior, so it's a part of our recovery, but the focus is on that overall health and growth that really leads to the kind of life we all want to live.

Yeah, it's like a checkbox versus a lifestyle. They're just, they're different. Like, I've accomplished this and done this, or this is something that is just a part of my daily rhythms and who I'm becoming.

Yeah, absolutely.

So like these group dynamics, then, obviously they're setting us up for the ability to engage in this process, whether we're doing accountability or whether we're doing recovery. But the group dynamic helps sets us up for success or failure, in a sense, for moving forward. So, Nick, what do you feel like the difference is in that scenario then, between a group that's giving advice versus people participating in a group where their self discovery is the thing that is propelling them forward.

Yeah, it's a good distinction. I think we see it really emphasized in a group where maybe one or two of the members are continuing to struggle at whatever way the group defines struggle, while others are finding more, you know, sobriety, that when someone admits to a relapse or a stumble going back into an old behavior, then everyone else with Good intentions usually jumps in like, well, here's what you should have do and stop doing this and if you'd only change that and why don't you do this next time in a way again, that can feel good. It's like, alright, everybody told me what to do. But as we see so often in life, when it doesn't come from me, when I'm just being told how to change my life and I don't personally embrace it, typically that doesn't create long term change. That might create a short term shift of like, oh, my group gave me all this great advice and it helps, but until I'm owning my own process, I'm not going to get very far. And that's why I think the emphasis in a recovery group on self discovery is so key because I need to arrive at some of these answers for myself. Like I can have a group member tell me, hey, you shouldn't be taking your smartphone in your bathroom. And I can do that because they told me. But if I have self discovery to recognize my patterns, the way I isolate and I see it for myself and I make that choice, I'm much more likely to follow it because I've seen it and I'm owning it. And so that's what we're really after in self discovery. Whether it is something more, you know, surfacey like a guardrail or something deeper about trauma or wounds for our past. I mean if, if you come along and tell me, man, and I kind of reacted this way to Dr. Ted Roberts in my counseling, like you have a deep father wound. It's like, no, I don't. Leave me alone. Like there's this natural bristling and reactiveness, like don't tell me about my problems.

Right?

You're not my dad.

Yeah, but, but six months later when I came to that self discovery, like, wow, I've got some deep stuff that is related to my father and my relationship with him and I could see it and own it for myself. The reaction was totally different and it led to a lot more change than had I just stayed in that place. Well, Ted says I got one, so I guess I better just take his word for it. That wouldn't have taken me very far. So I think we really want to emphasize and that self discovery is key. That's not to say we can never offer with permission, you know, hey, could I offer some an idea of what's worked for me? Could I ask a question about something I'm seeing? I mean that, that can be healthy, but we want the Focus to be on letting people learn at their own pace. Because that's the final thing I'd say is this is not a predictable. Step by step, here's how long it takes. Process. I mean, every person is different. Their background is different, their personality is different. And for some things, click. And in a month, you know, they're making huge strides. And for others, they need the time of false starts and some stumbling, and that's how they're gonna learn. And that's okay because every person's story is different. And so that really requires that we put that focus on self discovery and not just trying to fix one another.

It's interesting too, like, if self discovery. Cause I think that if someone discovers something about themselves as they're going through recovery work, that is gonna be more powerful, as you said, and then accountability can come in. And then it's like, hey, group members, I discovered this about myself. This is a change I want to make. And then there is this, like, camaraderie, this coming around this person to then hold that person accountable to that change. Because again, if we're more looking for advice giving versus self discovery, advice giving is still putting the responsibility on the effectiveness of the advice given in that week. Right. So if we're meeting on a weekly basis and it's like, well, you, you know, so. And so. And the other guys, they didn't give me really good advice this week. So it's their fault versus self discovery. It is still on me. Like, it's to the depth that I have discovered this about myself and the work I'm doing on myself that's going to dictate my health. And so again, I think this is another way to just kind of shuck the responsibility onto somebody else.

Yeah, Yeah, I thought of something like that. We're not saying that accountability is bad. I think we're saying the approach to accountability that we've had is maybe misguided and not effective.

Yeah.

So, like, the difference of me, like asking you to hold me accountable, that's kind of like this group advice thing where if I'm asking you to hold me accountable, I'm relying on you to give me advice. I'm relying on your. Like, if you. I need you to ask the right question. Like, if you just say, hey, how was your week? And I say it was great. Cool, end of discussion. But if, you know, but. But me making myself accountable to you. Yeah, like, that's different. That's. That's kind of the self discovery part that says that I'm going To again I'm going to own this. Like I'm going to do the work that's here. I am going to answer the questions that are in the material. I'm going to make the phone calls and the check ins that are part of this group. I'm going to do this and in that I'm going to learn things about myself versus relying on other people. And then when there's a group where there's, where there's a group advice kind of atmosphere, a lot of people don't feel safe in that. If I feel like every time I hang out with Trevor and Nick and I tell them I don't know a challenge that I'm having as a parent. Yeah. If I feel like all they're going to do is spout at me all of the successes they've had as a parent, well I'm just going to stop, I'm just going to stop talking to them about yes, you know, yes. And so it ends up becoming not a safe place to even be real about what we're dealing with versus if we have the space for self discovery then like Trevor and Nick are going to let me talk about my challenges and also you know, just be there alongside of me when I work through some things.

It's really good.

Yeah. I was just thinking maybe we should clarify especially what we're talking about here is unsolicited advice giving because I do think there's a place for mentors, there's a place for guides but it's when that's a self even that is self discovery led of like man guys. I'm realizing I really get triggered by you know, my wife's whatever when she does this and I feel so I cannot see what I'm missing or why that is. What do you guys think? Do you have any advice for me? So that's very different than if a guy is sharing in group about how triggered he was by something his wife said and then he just stops and everyone's like oh well we'll tell you how to fix it. That's why we make it a priority in our groups to say, you know when you are seeing something you ask permission like I mentioned earlier, would you mind if I asked you a question?

Yeah.

Would it be okay if I shared a story from my life where I saw something similar and if the purse says I don't know if I'm ready for that, be like great, no problem. That's we're not here to fix you, we're here to support you. Right so especially to be careful for that unsolicited advice where we all just jump in and tell people what to do.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a great point, Nick. I love how you differentiated that in terms of, like, the invitation. Right. So if I'm inviting you to give me advice, that's part of my self discovery.

Yes.

Like, if I. If I've had enough self discovery that I realized, man, I need advice, then me inviting that or asking for that advice, that's actually part of my self discovery process. Yeah. That's great.

Yeah. So good. Today's episode is sponsored by Drew BOA and Husband Material Academy. Through Husband Material, Drew helps Christian men outgrow porn. He does this through coaching men on how to change their brains, heal their hearts, and save their relationships by achieving freedom from porn.

Yeah.

And anyone who's listened to our podcast with Drew knows he's a. He's a good guy. He's got good insights. He's walked this road and is just using his story to bless others. And I really love the emphasis he has on guys that are engaged or newly married to really say, let's set the path right before it gets damaging. And I know he'll work with guys in any season, but I think in particular, if you are someone or know someone that's in that season of about to be married or early married, and they're acknowledging this, this isn't fixed in my life. I mean, get them connected to Drew because he is a man that can really help someone walk this road in a way that is redemptive and life changing.

Absolutely. So, yeah, go and join Drew's group. For men, it is husbandmaterialmen.com and you'll join the group there. All right, cool. Well, then that's number three. Let's move on to number four. The distinction is behavior modification versus what we'll call long term change. Bob, talk about that.

Yeah, I think one of the things that gets in the way of this is that we want immediate change. And so when we want immediate change, we go for that behavior modification approach. A lot of times we will. You know, we've heard of guys like, incorporating some sort of, like, physical pain, like snapping the rubber band or whatever else as a way to, like, change the behavior. You know, I mean, that's what, like, this, like, shock therapy was. Right. And so they're. They're looking for this behavior modification, but that's because we want the quick change. And, like, this is not a quick change thing. This is a long term thing. And again, this is Challenging, because that's not what we're used to. We're used to stepping into a group or stepping into a Bible study. And like, we want immediate, quote, unquote conviction. We want to be able to walk out of there, you know, getting anointed with some oil and now everything's good, whatever, like. But we want that quick thing. And. And these groups, like, are not designed for you to go through a group and to be fixed at the end of it. These groups are designed for you to go through a group and now have some progress in healing, but also have new tools and new skills at your disposal that you're just beginning to use. And so I think some of it is just the expectation that immediately there's going to be change. And when we want that and we don't see it, then we kind of quickly shift towards just some behavioral modification. And that might get some quick response, but it doesn't get the long term health.

I think we need to recognize how a behavior modification group or the traditional accountability group can really become a part of someone's binge purge cycle. Because after I've had the purge and I'm feeling bad and shameful and I want to change, man showing up at group every week, I'm calling those guys we're meeting regularly. But after a month or two, if the behavior has changed, in my estimation, if I've modified my behavior and I'm doing good, what happens? Well, that guy stops showing up at group as much. He doesn't make the calls. Like, the relationships kind of drift apart until they have another binge, and then they're like, we need to meet and I'm missing out on it. And so that can be the trap is if we haven't acted out in a while, we start to treat accountability as kind of a. That's a nice thing. I check in with these guys once in a while. But we may convince ourselves I don't really need it because the point of relationship was just that behavior. When we see that the point of relationship is the ongoing support as we grow towards being healthy people. And if that's our focus, then we see the need for that week in and week out, whether it was a great week or a bad week. Because it's just part of how we're learning and growing and supporting one another. And I think those are the healthy relationships we all need versus if it's just about the behavior, we'll probably ebb and flow in our level of commitment to it.

Yeah, with these, I just. I continue to See, like what's this focused on? Behavior modification, as you were saying, Bob, is the short term right now make a change and it's missing out on. I think what you know and what we're referring to with recovery groups is something that's focused on the healthy life. We can live all the things that we're doing differently and better. And the better relationships, the better self talk, the better understanding of our own identity and gifting the ministry opportunities that we're going to be given or can step into. There's so much more that's out there. It's not just the. This is the one area of my life that just sucks right now and is the only thing I need work on where recovery and recovery groups are focused on. No, you've got a lot of different areas you can get healthy. And sure, this one behavior is a huge hurdle that you keep running into. Like you're not even jumping, you're just smacking your face on the stupid hurdle every time. So let's get it out of there so that you can start running down the track at a better speed, at a better pace and pursuing health in all these different areas. So again, it's like that we're like honing in on one thing in both, but recovery, we're honing in on it so that we can expand the purview and see all this health that we can run into.

Yeah, in general, there's, there's an, there is a clinical connection. Right. Between trauma and addiction. And that's just like an industry standard given at this point. Yeah, trauma and addiction are connected. And so within a behavioral modification kind of model, we can't deal with trauma, we can't deal with limbic system stuff. If our approach is just to like get a quick fix on it when dealing, when dealing with trauma, when dealing with the limbic system. Right. There has to be a healing that occurs through new experiences and those, those new experiences. It's not a one time experience. Maybe. Let's just say maybe though. You know, we have a big healing experience where someone says, you know, hey, I love you and it doesn't matter what you did yesterday. Like, maybe there's this new idea that we, that, that we come in contact with that wow, I can be loved for who I am, but that doesn't, that doesn't heal all of the past wounds. Right, right. That's just kind of like this big occurrence where, where maybe we get a little bit of a paradigm shift, but we still need to have like a lifelong of experiences that Continue to change our perspective on relationship. Right. Even the idea of recovery is returning to a place where we were before we were hurt, before we were wounded, before we learned we couldn't trust other people. So like, this is a lifelong process.

I want to revisit to what we said about performance kind of orientation towards group that in behavior modification, if that's the emphasis, we're really just looking at those performance based things and we can really miss a lot of those deeper truths that you're talking about, Bob, because we, even if we have a series of questions like, well, you know, did you act out sexually? No. Did you, you know, blow up an anger at your kids? No. Did you read your Bible this week? Yes. And it's like behavior, behavior, behavior. And we can feel like I checked all the behavior boxes, I'm doing good, I performed well. But some of that deeper stuff is like, but how's it going with your heart? Like what's going on in your soul? What are your longings and desires and what are they directed towards? And what kind of self talk are you using towards yourselves? And how's your attitude towards God and others? And is there bitterness growing or unforgiven? I mean, those are the deeper things that really lead towards behaviors. And so what we talk about is how if, if we're focused on behavior modification. It's that metaphor of like white knuckling it. Like maybe this week I did everything right and everything's good.

Right.

But if the deeper stuff didn't change, it's only a matter of time before sooner or later, yeah, it takes me to something I don't want to do because I'm not addressing what's driving the behavior. And I would use this illustration with guys all the time that were, you know, I would talk about group and they'd say, well, I haven't acted out in a long time, I'm doing good. And, and I would try to get into do you know what is driving that behavior? Where it's coming from? And usually like, well, I, yeah, I don't know. I just, I'm not, I'm not acting out. And I would use the illustration of like an active volcano that if we cap the volcano and it's, you know, the top looks good, is the danger past? Like, well, no. If there's still all kinds of hot lava inside the mountain, it's actually just growing pressure and sooner or later it will either come back out the top or blow out sideways. And I think we've got a lot of people even in the church that are kind of living that way. Like, I'm good, it's all under control. But under the surface there's like this growing anxiety or anger or fear or whatever that sooner or later, if not addressed, can cause even bigger problems. And so that's why we want to get into what's long term change look like, what does it look like to change my thought processes and what's driving me so that the behavior doesn't happen.

And what's funny is as you're saying that the barometer then of my health becomes this one activity, this one thing, when that's all I'm focused on. When. Yeah, that, that one area definitely can impact health in other areas of your life. Absolutely. But we're just honed in on health is just this one area. I can, I'm then, okay, or I have now performed well or I'm living into who I'm supposed to be. If it's this one area that stops and that's just too small of a perspective. It's so much more. Your life is so much more than just one behavior. And so it opens. Recovery, opens your eyes to how dynamic it all is. I think.

Yeah, I think even with that like that eruption idea of like, so, so maybe you don't act out, but maybe you rage at your kids. Right, Right. Like, or maybe you withdraw from your friends. Like, like the, the, the building up and the, I guess the way that, that ends up showing up just by capping it with behavior, sometimes that, that shows up other ways, not just with, with the sexual behavior. Yeah. And so like if you've got, you know, Nick, you mentioned like the dry drunk idea. Right. If you've got sobriety but you're still a jerk.

Right?

Yeah.

Like there's, there's, there's something important in this recovery process that we're missing.

Right.

Like, like if you're, if you're still acting like disconnected and angry and bitter and like there's still some stuff in there that you need to get to.

Totally.

And sure, maybe acting out helps to level out some of the neurochemicals so that things are a little bit more accessible than they were before. Great. You have to feel to heal. And if you're acting out, you can, you don't have access to feelings. Absolutely. But it can't stop there.

Right? Absolutely.

Yeah. So let's talk about one more here. Number five, what we would call the difference in accountability group versus real recovery is the difference between just show up versus do the work. So what are we talking about here.

Okay, so one, my health is completely, if it's just show up, then my health, you know, my sobriety, if you will, is completely contingent on how that group went, how the time went, the advice that was given to me, the conversation that we had, did we pray enough, did we quote enough scripture? I mean that's just kind of the traditional model. And so I think in some ways it's this again, I'm just like, I'm putting responsibility on this time. My health is completely contingent on the time that we spend together. And recovery is also. And we talk about, these are all kind of tied together. But the recovery work that you do on your own, you do it before you get to this group. And so you've worked on self discovery and then at that point you're sharing about what you've experienced, you are having dialogue about the work you've already done. And so I think like an example for a traditional accountability group, let's say you have five people that show up and only three of them are able to share. Then those two people who didn't get to share, if they acted out that week, it's very easy to be like, well, if I would have had time or if I would have been able to share or if so and so would be able to give me advice, then that wouldn't have happened. Versus a recovery group. I've done the work, I come ready. So even if I don't get to touch on every single piece of work that I did, I already did the work. I already have that stuff under my belt, that self discovery, the self awareness, the exercises that I've had to do to really dig into family of origin and trauma and how my addiction is coming out. And so I think that it just shifts the perspective that it's not all on that group and puts again the responsibility back on the individual to pursue their own healing throughout the week. And I'll tell you stuff that you spend three or four days on, maybe you spend an hour a day. There's so much, here's what I'm gonna say. There's so much more that could happen if you spend an hour a day for seven days versus having a seven hour meeting. Like just more is going to happen in your recovery if you're able to spend those seven days with just a little bit, a little bit of time on your recovery.

Yeah, yeah. The, the like just showing up idea, like part of me wants to jump to be like, well, you're being lazy. But that's, but I don't I don't think that lazy is really a thing. I think that that that fits into procrastination and procrastination fits into coping. I mean, all of us, when we're working through our sexual addiction, we realize, no, I am more than anything a procrastinator. I procrastinate far more often than I act out sexually. And so when guys are just showing up, the knee jerk reaction is to be like, don't be lazy, do the work. But really we're avoiding pain still. We're avoiding the discomfort of either just having to do the work or having to answer the challenging questions or the vulnerability that's required. And so one, like, if you're showing up at group and you're not, don't have your work done. Know that you can't blame it on life on the outside. We're all busy. We all have things that are keeping us busy. Doesn't matter if you're married, single, kids or not, a dog or not, whatever, we're all busy. But you didn't not get the work done because life's too busy. You didn't get the work done because you're procrastinating. Because this work is challenging. Yes. And if you're willing to face that challenge and take those risks, then you can see some progress.

Yeah, I think it goes to a mindset that says it is going to group and group alone. That heals me. So as long as I just show up and get in the room, I'm going to be healed. And we don't want to ever say, well, group isn't important because we definitely see that as part of the system. But if we're relying on just that environment, but outside of it, doing nothing else. I mean, I was thinking of illustrations like this. It'd be if someone goes to the gym one hour a week, but then the other six and a half days is just lazy, eating whatever they want, making poor choices, like, they're not going to be very healthy in the long run. Or if someone said, man, I'm going to really start a new way of. I'm going to be a healthy eater and change my life. Like, oh, sweet, what have you done? Like, I bought a cookbook. Okay, like, what else? I got this cookbook. And as funny as that might sound, I kind of hear that from people like, oh, I've got accountability, I'm good. It's like, okay, what else? Because if all I do is accountability and think that's the key, but I'm not doing the deeper work of what's driving me learning my daily rhythms, being accountable to people throughout the week. It's why in our groups there is a requirement of assignments you do during the week. And it's not just busy work. It's not punishment. It's to get into self discovery, to understand what's going on. And if we don't engage in that, just showing up and being in the room once a week, it's good, it's part of it. But if that's all we do, it's not going to lead to lasting change and transformation.

Some people, like in your analogy, some people also just go to the gym and don't work out, but they're just like, well, I went to the gym this week. Like I was there, you know, like, and that's still not enough.

Like I went to the juice bar.

At the gym, right? Like watching other people work out doesn't mean you did anything, you know, and it's the same thing. Like again, it's like, well, I went to my meeting and it's like, well, great, like what happened in the meeting? Well, I just sat there and listened. It's like, okay, well then nothing happened. Like, no work happened. And again, I think we want to make sure that as a reminder for listeners right now, accountability in and of itself is not bad. That's not what we're saying. Again, we need it traditional model that, that a lot of us have been taught growing up is what accountability or health and sobriety when it comes to sexual addiction looks like. So that's kind of what we're going at.

Yeah, accountability is part of the process. It's not the whole process.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm regularly reminded that like doing the work by itself, like, so if all we did was took the seven Pillars Workbook or Betrayal and beyond or you know, whatever it is that we're using unraveled and we do the work that's in it by ourselves in isolation and we, and we don't incorporate relationship with it, we're not going to have the same results. Also, if we just attend the group and are hanging out with people, having these conversations, but we aren't doing the work, we're not going to get that same result. It's taking this stuff, answering the difficult questions and then taking the risk of incorporating other people into that process because it's in that incorporation now we realize I can be honest about my hurts and my pains and my fears and, and I can be loved and accepted. Okay, wow. There's something different that's available than what.

I thought, which is what you talked about. You talked about those new experiences. That's what you're getting to encounter.

Yeah, yeah. But you can't do it without doing the work. And so you have to do the work and attend group. And you have to attend group and do the work. Otherwise, like, it just doesn't work. Yep.

So it's. It's obvious from our conversation that there definitely is a difference from the traditional accountability groups and recovery groups. And really, to make sure it's clear, pure desire does not offer accountability groups in the traditional model. This is recovery groups. This is stuff where you do the work, as Bob's saying, and then go and have a group experience together centered around the work that you did throughout the week. So whatever you call your group, because I know some people call recovery groups accountability groups, whatever you call it, it needs to be fosible, focused on the aspects of recovery, where you're doing the work. And accountability absolutely is a part. And there is discussion, there is community. And understand accountability is, like we said, is focused on being sober, which is great. But recovery is focused on overall and lasting health, which is really what we're after. And remember that recovery is a journey of getting healthier and healthier as we go. It's not that box to be checked. It's a lifestyle to adopt. So, Bob, we love having you on, man. Just a short and sweet episode, but it was meaningful. Thanks, man.

Yeah. Appreciate being here.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

Sam.