199 - Help! My Group Member Keeps Relapsing

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What is up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 199 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

They're great.

Tony the Tiger. Tony the Tiger. You know what's funny? I got shamed recently for that's probably not what.

Frosted Flakes.

No. Never, ever shame someone for eating Frosted Flakes.

Exactly.

But someone said. What was the episode? It was a recent episode where it was like Tom and Jerry. It was something. You had done something. And they're like, I can't believe that you didn't know that. And I felt super ashamed. So whoever you are, listener, come on, man.

We've done 199 of these.

Yeah, we're almost at 200. Like, just, you know, honor the process.

Well, and I. On that note, I need to thank Steven H. Who sent me a fresh new batch of podcast intros because my well is running dry. But he provided some new ones. And I actually thought I had used the Tony the Tiger one, but my system says, no, that was another new one. So, Stephen H. Thank you to our friend Stephen.

You the man. Okay, so today we had on Dan Howey, who is our online group administrator, and we talked about a situation where, well, the title says it help My group member keeps relapsing.

Yeah. And when that happens, our internal response can be like, great, here we go again. And we maybe don't feel people are.

Going to like that tie in, by the way, I already know it.

We don't feel well equipped sometimes to handle that. Like, we can see if, man, if a person has momentum and they're getting it and they're taking good strides, like, okay, I can work with this. But when someone's stuck, we're like, I don't know what to do. Is it my fault? Should I be doing more? Should I be doing less? Should I send them to a counselor? Kick them out of group? I mean, there are just so many questions we can wrestle with. And so I hope today, as we talk through these situations, it just gives someone some clarity on what to focus on. A couple of things to avoid and really to see that this is just part of life in group. You know, when you're working with someone who's been addicted or struggling, whatever title you want to use is fine. There's going to be people that. That struggle and they struggle for different reasons. And I think if we can see maybe the. The heart of what someone is dealing with, it gives us a lot of tools as the leader to know how to approach it. And that's what we covered today.

Yeah, I think we covered a lot of really key aspects of the recovery journey that weren't necessarily the focus of our conversation, but we got to touch on quite a bit. So it is a great episode. But real quick, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. We're on all the major platforms. Follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. We also have full episodes up on YouTube now of these episodes. So check that out. All right, here is our conversation with Dan Howey on handling group members who are continually relapsing. Dan, Howie, welcome back.

Thanks, Trevor.

Should we start again?

Sure.

No, we're not going to. Thank you.

Thank your.

Thank you.

Dan's here, everyone.

Yeah.

Okay. Today we're going to talk through a situation where there's a specific group member that can't seem to stop relapsing and really how to.

I don't know who you are.

Oh, gosh.

Oh, no.

And how to handle it. So we've all been in group, all three of us, where there's someone struggling to really make those connections and to really start establishing that sobriety. And so we wanna look at it from a group leader perspective. How do we be an effective group leader in that, but then also as a group member, how do we best support that person? Cause there may be parts of our own recovery where we get into seasons like that. So we wanna just kinda address this situation, hence help. Right. So let's just start with this one. If we are a group leader and one of our group members is continuing to rel and this I'm thinking like a week after week, over a month or two month span, and it just seems to be every single week on the faster sale they're getting to relapse. Is it our fault as a leader?

It sure can feel like it. And I think we oftentimes want to take that responsibility on because we are, quote, leading, even though that honestly we're facilitating. The Holy Spirit does the healing and we are here to help help them in that process. But no, we're not. Our job is to facilitate the healing process and that group member is ultimately responsible for their own healing. So it's super easy to take responsibility for good or bad. I know I did for quite some time, really had a little bit of an unhealthy attachment to someone's progress or not progress.

So it's almost like a codependency, a little bit like leadership codependency that I'm. I'm only leading. Well, if you're doing good.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think that's the heart behind, you know, why we asked the question this way is to kind of expose where we do get wrapped up in. It's my responsibility to help fix you or heal you, and that's never our role. I was thinking a little bit about how we've had this conversation when it comes to a married couple and the betrayed spouse who might hear from the addicted or struggling spouse, like, well, if you were only nicer to me, or if you only paid more attention to me, or I only did this because we're not having sex. And what we've brought up in a lot of other podcasts, it's like, whether or not those things or issues are true in your marriage, your choices are still your choice. You are still responsible for your actions. And it doesn't matter if that's completely 100% accurate, even you still made the choice. And I think we need to apply some of that same thinking to group is to say, even if the group isn't running very well or I haven't done very well as a leader, or we're not following the group guidelines very well and someone is relapsing, it still is the right responsibility for the person making the choice. Say, I made the choices and I need to own it now. Having said all that, I do think it's an opportunity for us as a group leader or even a group member to look at. Are there things about the way the group is functioning that may be a contributing factor? So not to take blame on ourselves or say it's my fault, but to say, you know, if we're not really creating any expectations of someone working on their progress or doing their faster scale and someone's relapsing, we might say, oh, I think there are some things we could learn here. But even as we learn, we want to make sure we're not taking on blame. And I've heard you say it a hundred times on the podcast, Trevor, like, we can't care about someone else's healing more than they do. Absolutely. And as a group leader or group member, that is always the case. We're there to focus on ourselves. That's one of the group guidelines. Focus on yourself and your healing, believing that your focus on your healing is the best thing you can do to help someone else focus on their healing.

And the interesting Thing.

There's, like, a weird dynamic. I think initially it can be performance. I have a performance mindset as a group leader. If someone won't stop relapsing, it's easy to blame myself if I'm already in that performance mindset. I know I struggled with that leading my. I think I still would today struggle with that. But I think another piece, too, is like, we're looking for a reason why this person won't stop relapsing. And the easiest one are the ones we can most quickly find is blame myself. I can't figure out why this person, they're doing the right things. They're showing up to group, they're doing the homework. It seems like they're on top of it. However, this keeps happening. And so I need to just find a reason because there's this, like, it's uncomfortable. There's this tension, like, I can't figure it out. And so the easiest way is to then just put the blame on myself.

Myself.

Yeah. Well, as Benjamin Franklin once wisely quipped, for every problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong. And I think that can happen in groups. Like, well, if you would just do this, like, you know, if it was that simple, most people would change. And the recovery process is complex.

Yeah.

It's not always straightforward. There's steps forward and steps back. And that's what we want to acknowledge in this podcast, is to look at how can a. A relapse from a group member be an opportunity for all of us to learn and grow and perhaps take another step in our own recovery. So, Trevor, let's throw this one to you. If, as we've acknowledged, it's not our fault when someone else relapses, what are some of the reasons that group members maybe continue to relapse?

Yeah. So a couple things that just come to mind are, one, maybe this individual is doing the homework, but doing the homework, not spread out throughout the week. It's a cram it and get it in before group takes place and maybe a couple hours before or even right before we meet. And I think that what's interesting is if you're able to take the work and chew on it over an extended period of time, being five to six days, I think that you get a lot more out of it, have more time to think about it, and you do an exercise, then you sleep on it and wake up, and there's more clarity. You have maybe more conversations with group members throughout the week. That's one reason. Another reason is maybe. Maybe it's just not enough. You know, maybe there's so much trauma or there's so much dysfunction or there's so much that has happened to set this person up that they really need someone professional to walk them through it. But then, man, we all do it. We look for shortcuts. Like, I think about group members I've had that consistently were relapsing. They. They understood their pattern, you know, like their matrix of addiction. They understood where the pattern began, but they weren't making any changes over there. They were making changes maybe three or four steps down the line. And it's like, look, if you would just get off your phone or get rid of Instagram or quit perusing YouTube late at night, maybe you won't relapse. And so I think in some ways there's this hesitancy to actually make the necessary changes. That whole idea of. You always joke, Nick, about the idea of if your iPhone causes you to sin, pluck it out. Right. Which we'll get over the whole bias there. But the idea is, are you doing what's absolutely necessary? And most of the time in this situation, from my experience, the answer is no, that not everything that is necessary to stay healthy is being done. So those are some reasons I come up with.

Yeah. And you hit it really well. We love to kind of start understanding. We dig into and start understanding our past and go, oh, I see that trauma and this wound, and, man, that's really interesting. And I can see where that came from. And you're like, yeah, that's why I'm feeling triggered when I'm with so and so. And then maybe I'd relapse later. And you're like, great, good information, and then you make no changes based on that information. It's great head knowledge, and it's. It's good to know. But if you don't make those changes, you know, I think the other. Some of the other reasons is most always you're still in isolation. How many times have you said.

How.

Are your calls going?

It's like, well, it was good.

You know, I didn't call in the moment.

I didn't call beforehand after the three relapses.

Yeah, but. But I did call people, you know, 45 minutes before grip to tell them about. To tell them about my relapse. It's like, well, that's. That's fine. There's. Yeah, that's a good thing. But, you know, let's break isolation, be transparent and honest throughout the. Throughout the week, and especially when you're when you're triggered and things are difficult, I think the other one you just kind of hit on it is really. It's still a coping mechanism. And we're. We're literally asking you to uncover these traumas and these experiences that you're trying to not feel, and we're asking you to feel them. So there is more pressure, especially your first time through a group where you're being placed in a really precarious position. So that's when it comes down to, is group enough? Maybe you need more. Maybe it's just a matter of time. Continue the process. As Ted likes to say, relapse doesn't stop the healing process, but there's consequences and it can slow it. So, yeah, you know, Yeah.

I think sometimes we have to acknowledge there is a commitment issue, that maybe a person's in group because their spouse wanted them to be, or the pastor suggested it, or, you know, it seems like a good idea. But if you talk with them, you realize they haven't really committed to the idea to living free of their sin, their baggage, their pattern. And if. If they're not committed to it, there may be an honest conversation about saying, I don't know if this group is right for you. Because this is a group for people who are committed to believing they can live free of lust, porn, whatever they're really trying to tackle in their life. And if they're not there, if they're like, well, not really. I really don't think it's that big of a deal. Well, it doesn't really matter what else you say to them, because if their commitment level isn't there, it's like, this isn't going to work for you. But that's, thankfully, I find, rarely the case. You just feel like, no, I'm all in and I want it. It's not working. I think the three main things I look at is, are they really embracing living a life of truth? That's the thing I'll find is that someone's not being honest about how they're using their smartphone or the kind of websites they're visiting, or they haven't even gotten honest enough with their spouse to have any layer of truth in the home. And so it's like, okay, that's something that has to be addressed. Another area then tends to be the guardrails. If they don't have any. Like, they're just hoping that coming to group and doing the work fixes them, and then somehow they'll make every choice perfect outside of groups. Like, well, that's not really going to work very well. Or as we've alluded to, they're not doing the work, they're not doing the deeper work of looking at what's driving it, where is it coming from? And so I often will draw that up, you know, in a three circles tool where. Not the. Not like the relapse prevention plan, but three overlapping circles that have one common center.

Yeah.

And I'll explain to someone that you need all of these things happening together, that that's what leads to traction. And it's usually not that all three of them are off, it's that one of the areas or maybe two aren't happening. And so, yeah, that's something I just always try to work through with a group member. Like, are you walking in truth? Are you creating healthy guardrails? And are you doing the deeper work? Because if they are and they're committed to it.

Right.

I find over and over there's traction. But usually one of those, you can go, well, they're not doing anything here. And that's something we can then begin to address together.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So I know you've been leading groups, Nick, for a while. This may be the time to fess up. What were the ways in which you handled someone who's been relapsing? Maybe not the best way. Or have you seen or heard what are the things we don't want to do when someone relapses?

I think we've kind of mentioned it already, but caring more than they do. Where as a group leader, maybe I'm frustrated because I want it for them and I feel like I've given them really good advice and they're not following it. And it's like, why, you know, why did that happen? And if my level of frustration and anxiety about their relapse is greater than theirs, that's just not going to work. Like, I have to remember consciously as a leader, this is their story. So I'm here to help. And if they're not all that frustrated, that may actually be part of what I need to find out about. Like, hit. It doesn't seem like it bothers you at all that you had some relapses this week. Could you talk about that a little bit? I think that's 1. I think 2. Related to that is just getting impatient. This is all you.

Just hurry up and get better already.

We, as a group leader or group member, we may not see all of the hidden factors that are. Are driving their behavior. Especially, you know, early in group. The first couple of months, like, there may be a part of their story that hasn't even come up yet because they haven't felt safe enough to share it or they haven't connected the dots how important it is. And so we're maybe just getting frustrated by what we hear, but there's maybe a lot more going on. And so I think just that reminder to be patient and remember that it's a process. And I think getting overly focused on the sobriety as the primary thing. Like, well, okay, if you didn't relapse, you're doing good. If you relapsed, you're doing bad.

Yeah, that's good.

Because that really turns it back into a performance group, which we've said a pure desire group is not a performance group. We're really there to work towards lasting healing and change. And so that could mean that a person who is still relapsing is actually growing. And it's for us as a group leader to really help look for that and say, yeah, you relapsed this week, but I, I noticed you shared that you had made a call that morning and you had made a call shortly afterwards to process what happened. Would you have ever done that a couple of months ago? And they're like, totally, no way. Okay, that's growth. You're moving in the right direction. So I think making sure we keep the focus not just on, did you avoid relapse, but looking at what else is going on in their life can be a really helpful tact as a leader.

Yeah, I'm just thinking, and these are some things that I think some of them I've done, but some of them are also, if someone did them to me, I would want to punch them in the throat and then leave group and probably not be in recovery. If someone were to call me out on the spot in the middle of group and be like, you know what? That's the sixth group in a row that you've relapsed and just put someone out on the spot. I don't see that going well. I really don't. I think that that's one is calling them out and then kind of tied to that is also making connections for them. And we talk about this all the time. That self discovery is so important. If you're making connections for someone else, those are connections they're not making and cementing in their own brain. It's just something that's coming externally. And we know that people who walk into these groups get a lot of external information all the time. On how to stop, and it doesn't ever work. And so you have to leave that space for sure. But then another one is. And this is the one I do is advice giving. Like, I'm very quick to just be like, hey, have you ever thought about, you know, like, posing it as, like, I'm not giving advice, I'm asking a question that's pointed. You know, I think that that also sets it up to where I'm then placing myself as the hero in that situation. I'm somehow coming and solving this problem when. And I get. I know we'll get to it in the next question, but that for me, is not allowing the space for a person to figure out what's actually going on. It's me, as you're saying, impatiently rushing the process.

Yeah, yeah. And you guys both hit it with the. You know, if our only measure for health is how often we don't relapse, we're in the wrong business. You know, we're never gonna. Yeah, we're never gonna have lasting freedom, which is what we're really after. Not just behavior modification, but real freedom from. From what drives us. And then I thought of the first word when. When I heard this question was, man, shaming is the worst. Yeah. I was like, that word gets thrown around a lot. And I kind of didn't know what it meant. So I looked it up. I went to, you know, the Googles and looked it up. And that kind of an interesting definition that I hadn't really thought of. It says it's. Shaming is communicating that someone is inferior or unworthy of affection or respect because of one's actions, thoughts, circumstances, or experiences. So, I mean, really, when we come into group, we have. We're exploring all those things, our actions, our circumstances, our thoughts, our experiences, and adding baggage and adding trauma or something like that. A negative experience to. To that, you know, isn't going to help bring someone forward necessarily. You know, really exploring the why behind anything we do is. It's always the key. And you know, what I like to say is that's it's such. Don't let. Let's not waste this. What can we learn from this? Or what can you learn? We don't learn anything. You learn something.

Yeah.

Connected to that is the words that we use after someone shares about a relapse and do we shame them? I think about what is in a lot of our workbooks that says to not be shocked by the behavior, but try to be shocked by the fear. Yeah, I mean, that happens. Maybe someone Shares about a relapse that includes a kind of pornography that we're not drawn to or some kind of fetish. And if we respond of like, what that's so gross? Or why would you do that? Like, even if we're just responding out of some of our own shock, what we are communicating is shame that how could you be into that? What's wrong with you? And this may be something, as funny as it sounds for a leader even to practice before group, like, put yourself in that head space saying, let's imagine, you know, group member Joe confesses all these things, and it's really stuff outside of my comfort zone. How will my face look? What will I say first? And you could even practice going in the mirror. Joe, thank you for sharing that. That had to take a lot of courage to be open and vulnerable with us about some really personal stuff. And I want you to know how proud I am of you. And I really believe that honesty is going to help, and we're here to help you. And so now I'm affirming, I'm welcoming, I'm accepting. And even as they've maybe shared some shocking stuff, I've kept the focus on who they are and the way that we value them as a group member. So that is so key that the words and the way we respond initially make a big difference. And that scenario, as a group leader, you may need to even jump in if a group member is doing some of these other no nos that we've talked about. That's where facilitating the group is your role to go. Time out. Before we all try to fix Joe, let's. Let's push pause on that. Joe, first, we just need to say how proud we are of you sharing all that. So jump in if you need to.

And I think everybody in group should practice that, not just a group leader. That's a good practice for everybody. Okay, so let's. We kind of got into it a little bit with the other question, but this next one is, what do we do then in this situation? So we know what not to do. But now what are some ways that we can handle this properly?

Yeah, I mean, ultimately you want to affirm. Let's just like Nick was saying, the fact that you're sharing it to begin with, you know, we're not. Yeah, it's not hidden anymore. We're not hiding it. So. But ultimately you want to go back to, what am I going to learn how. What can I learn from this situation? And the easiest, most obvious ways are just using the tools that we have we have the crash site analysis which is a one page sheet that you can fill out that will help you understand how you got to where you relapsed. Go through your faster scales again. What is it that you've been seeing in the past several weeks? What have you missed in the last several weeks? Things like that. We have all sorts of tools and sometimes they aren't obvious in the moment, but revisiting them or doing something different can really reveal something to get you to that aha moment. So you know, and questions like you said, not giving advice and not even posing my question to masquerade, really self discovery for that individual is so key. So open ended questions, helping them.

Yeah.

Just learn something new.

Yeah, yeah. I think it starts too with listening. Well, that may be a temptation when someone relapses a lot that we're like, okay, okay, we heard this story, we know where it ends. But the quote, there's truth to that idea that the devil's in the details. That there are details in someone's story that can really be insightful. Not only what they share but what they omit. And I think as a group leader asking questions in those regards, not like you said Trevor, not to put someone on the spot and shame them and you know the sixth time, but when someone does share like yeah, and I made this poor choice in the Internet and I had kind of a rough night and then they go on and you're like, yeah, time out. Can we just go back to your story a little bit? Appreciate you sharing this. You know, you said you had a rough night. You know, a lot of what heals us is being open and honest, what we mean. So would you mind sharing what does that mean that you had a rough night? Because maybe it just means they laid in bed battling lustful thoughts and they actually battled it pretty well and you could affirm and you know, celebrate that with them. Or maybe it means they acted out several times and they were trying to just gloss over it because they didn't really want to have to be honest. I think the only way we'll know that is if we listen well, if we listen for the holes, if we listen for maybe something they've missed. And again that can be good and bad. Maybe there's something good they did that we need to pause and help them see, man, this was such a good decision you made. And maybe there's something they're avoiding that in love we need to ask good questions like you said Dan, to just not to try to give them advice In a subtle way. But to ask, is there any reason you didn't make a phone call when you felt triggered? Did you use your recovery action plan? Did you pull out your escape plan? Because I remember last week you saying that you had one. Did you use it? So within the context of group asking the questions, it empowers them to see, did I use the tools, and how could I use them better? But all that to say, again, we won't do that very well unless we really listen to their sharing.

Yeah.

And try to hear what. What is unique about this situation that we could really maybe help with.

Yeah. And don't be a detective. I think that, like, for me, I could take. Because I 100% agree with that. I think for me, I can take that and twist it into, okay, now I have to be this detective and always be listening to every single word and dissect and, like, put their puzzle of, you know, brokenness together. No, like, pay attention. Be. Be, you know, a good listener, for sure. But also understand that your job is not to correct them. Or again, it's also gonna be, who is it? Where are they at in their recovery journey? Is it their first group? Their sixth group, whatever it may be? Just kind of take those things into consideration. A couple other things, as you guys are saying, the asking questions, the visual I get is like the bumper lanes on a bowling lane in a bowling alley, where your questions, you're trying to get someone. Yes. Toward making connections, but you have to view them as, like, real soft touches that just redirect. And for me, I think that that's the visual. I've held onto that. That's my job in asking questions questions. Because we both are trying to head toward really figuring out what's going on in this person's story. And for me, I can ask questions that either are those soft touches for redirect or can be just throwing them right in the gutter, like, whatever you can run with that illustration. I think another thing to consider and just think about the way if you're a group leader or another group member, consider that you also model what it looks like to do recovery for this person. And again, this is something you can always control is, are you doing the work? Are you making the phone calls? Are you using the tools? Are you being honest in group? And that modeling, in so many ways, the vulnerability and honesty we have in groups unlocks the doors for other people to share. And so I think that that's maybe another approach too. Instead of thinking and focusing just on them, also think how am I modeling? What kind of culture am I creating inside this group atmosphere, et cetera?

And this is an area where I think being the group leader, it's so key to use the tools that's they're there at your disposal. And so when I've got a group member that's relapsing, particularly when it's, you know, number two or three, even if it's been spaced out by a few months, it's always asking the question, well, what was on your. Your relapse prevention plan? You know, did you follow the guardrails? Or where did that break down and not work for you? Because that's a point of, okay, let's tweak that. Let's change something so that it works for you. And then my second question will be, are you following a recovery action plan? And if a person in group's like, what plan? Okay, well, let's start there. And especially if it's relapse 2 and 3 and 4, like, their recovery action plan needs to become that. That lifeline of these consequences are not worth the relapses. And there are things I have chosen, not just things that have been put on me, but that I see. And this, again, also goes back to the commitment level. If they say, I am committed to walking and living free of this, then they're saying, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to retrain my brain, that the cost of relapse isn't worth the little bit of pleasure I get out of it. And so, again, as a group leader, you don't want to do that for them. You want to direct them to it, though, and say, is your recovery action plan working for you? Because if the consequences are just like, yeah, I had to give 50 bucks to a ministry, and I had to tell the group, and they did it. It's like I've told people many times, your recovery action plan is actually too easy. It doesn't cost you enough. And that's a hard thing for a person to embrace. But if they're really saying, I want to be free, that's where it's at is in those two tools. So bringing those up is really, really important.

Yep, totally. All right, so today's episode is sponsored by Drew BOA and Husband Material Academy. Through Husband Material, Drew helps Christian men outgrow porn. I love that he does this through coaching men on how to change their brains, how to heal their hearts, and really save relationships by achieving freedom from porn.

Yeah. Thank you, Drew boa, for being a sponsor. We think Very, very highly of Drew. He's a man who's just very real and vulnerable with his own story. I mean, sometimes in a way that might make you feel like, oh, is that okay to share? But that's what's awesome about Drew is he's willing to open that door that. That I think gives other people so much freedom to process parts of their own story that maybe previously they felt were just too shameful, too personal, too deep. I mean, that's the kind of stuff Drew sees and says. No, that's what we've got to face, because in it is our healing and redemption. And I think God has really gifted him and skilled him to do that well. And so if you're a man looking for kind of another level of coaching and mentoring, the resources on his website are great. He partners with us at Pure Desire to use seven pillars and Living free. And so for our listeners that maybe feel loyal to Pure Desire, we love you, but we want you to know you're not, like, leaving us to go to Drew. Like, Drew is a partner and a friend, and if you could benefit from his coaching, we would really encourage you to check it out, because we know with Drew that you would be in good hands. You know, there's a lot of people out there doing coaching and mentoring and hanging their shingle, and it can be hard to know. Yeah, we're to turn.

Absolutely.

Drew's a good man, and we appreciate just his friendship and partnership with us.

All right, so what we want you to do is go to husbandmaterialmen.com check out what drew is doing, and get plugged in with him. And thank you to Drew BOA for sponsoring this week's episode.

So if we're not the group leader, you know, maybe some people are listening, are like, oh, this now. I never want to be a group leader, because that's too much responsibility.

Still do it.

Please still do it. It can be easiest, the group member to just, like, keep our head down. Like, okay, just wait till they get through that person, and then they can come to. But it seems like the group members also have a role. So if we're a group member, what is our role? If a group member is always relapsing, what can we do as a group member?

And I think you talked about it earlier, that response, how we respond to someone sharing. I think that that's really important as someone is being honest about their relapse. It's like, okay, you don't want to roll your eyes and be like, oh, gosh, this is the sixth time and we're all looking down at our books and not paying attention to this person that gives vibe with people and we don't want to do that. The second one is phone calls. Like you have this one on one time with this individual that you're talking about your experiences and where you're at on the faster scale and the homework and all that. Like those check in times are great times to do just that check in with this individual where you can ask maybe some more pointed questions that you wouldn't necessarily ask in group because it might be putting them on the spot. And I'm not saying you need to always do this or even work to make those connections for them, but just like if. So an example, if someone is like, you know, I'm realizing that my pattern starts with late night scrolling on social media. Then if you're paying attention and you're listening in group and in that phone call, you can just ask very casually, not as a pointed way, but just be like, hey, last week man, you were sharing that you were struggling with late night social media scrolling. How's that going this week? And honestly it's kind of an open ended question and that allows a conversation to move in that direction. And so I think that taking advantage of phone calls is definitely helpful because you can also model in that too, model that honesty and using the tools, doing the homework and all that. But it is a more focused and a safer place to maybe have some more pointed conversations in your phone calls.

Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's good because we often have to, we want to give the support to those group members in the way they've asked for it. So each week when someone's doing their commitment to change, they're going to say, well, what are the details and how am I going to stay in restoration? And what questions can they ask? And if you pay attention to what kind of questions this person generally says there's a, there's a pattern of how they like to engage. And for me I've found that, you know, there's guys who want to, they want to call and be talked to all the time. There's other guys who are just like maybe just a little bit less, you know, don't overwhelm me with your quote, support because I'm going to run away as fast as I can. So you know, listen and be respectful and kind of just model what they've asked for. And I think one of the biggest things this goes for anybody, your own healing is the most important was One of the very most important things for helping others, you know, the healthier I get, the better it is for anyone that I'm in a relationship with. If I can say, man, I have struggled with such and such and here's what I've learned about myself and here's how I handle it differently. Literally. I heard that several times when I was going through group and I was like, oh, okay, so it is possible and maybe I will find out something and all right, I'm going to keep going and I'm going to keep giving it my all. So just I'm encouraging others just by being honest and being open and ensuring what I've done and what I've learned.

I think it can also be helpful to think through the distinction between sympathy and empathy. When someone in our group shares sympathy is maybe the easy go to of sorry that happened, you know, I'm feeling for you, that's too bad, that's gotta be rough at home and pat on the back, that's nice, there's a place for that. But it really doesn't necessarily help someone feel included. In fact, sympathy might make them feel excluded of like, well, I'm the only one and they all feel sorry for me. Empathy is an approach to say I understand where you are because I've been there too and maybe more importantly trying to share, I'm still there.

Yeah.

And even if we're not relapsing, maybe we've had a great run of sobriety in our life where it's been years in our rear view, we can likely still find a part of their story to say, you know, totally. I still make choices I don't understand and I know the frustration I feel and the self shame that can start going and, and I know that's got to be hard because I'm there too. The way that can help someone feel that they belong and they're included because we're all on this journey together. And that's kind of the point of groups say we are all on this journey together. And whether you're relapsing weekly or never in the last 10 years, we all have stuff to work on. And when we can find those common points of empathy, it can help that person who is struggling to feel like I belong here. I matter which going back to what you said, Dan, helps them break out of that isolation.

Yep. Absolutely. Yeah.

So I have been in a number of groups and every time I am not the leader, someone has their own idea of how the group should handle the person who relapses consistently and how long they should be allowed to stay in group before they're told to go take a break. So I've heard, like, I had one leader who was like, after two in a week, they're like, you know, you do it again, you're just gonna have to step out of group for a while. And you're like, okay, well, gonna get it together. Sorry, I smashed the table.

White knuckle.

Yeah, I'm just gonna. Yeah, I'm just totally. So what is. At what point do we actually have to ask someone to step away from group because of it?

Yeah. I would want to be clear to say that a relapse or even a pattern of relapses is never a reason to ask someone to lead group in and of itself. Because what that is saying, again, is that we're a performance group, and if you're relapsing, you can't hack it. You're not performing well enough, and you're out of here. If a person is relapsing 100 times, but they're doing the work, they're committed, they're a good group member. Like, that's what group is for. And we want to help them see, you belong and you're here now. Typically, if someone is battling a long series of relapses, it's not just the relapse itself. We'll find they're not doing the work. They're only showing up to half the group. They haven't made a phone call in six months. They're totally snowballing their wife or their husband and haven't told them anything. And so they're just getting away with stuff. They.

Yep.

They're not following any of the guardrails or the group guidelines. So those are the things that. When I talk with someone, I want to make sure that's the emphasis, because this is where it could get kind of muddled together, that you're talking to the person who's relapsing all the time about stepping out of group, and they're feeling like, well, it's because I keep relapsing. Right. We want to be clear to say, no, the relapses are not the issue.

Yeah.

It's the other things that you've said you would do as part of this group, but now you're not doing it.

Right. Guess who won't relapse anymore after you tell them they're going to, you know, get kicked out of group whether they're relapsing or not.

Yeah.

You're never going to hear about it.

Again even if they do. Right?

Yeah, you just threaten them to behave a different way.

So to me, that's the key is we keep the focus on the group guidelines and why those commitments are so important. And if they're following those, I think you can keep working with a person because it's not about their ability to perform well, it's about the journey they're on. And for some people, this is the thing we've seen in groups. Some people, it takes them a while to get traction. And just because their story isn't moving at the speed you think it should be, don't focus on the number of relapses, focus on the other pieces that really you can call them to account for. And then if they're not willing to follow those other things like the group guidelines, then you do need to ask them to step out of group.

And I think a part of that too is considering how is that making the group safe or unsafe? If someone is showing up to group but isn't doing the work or is only showing up kind of haphazardly and relapsing all the time, what that does is that compromises the safety of the group. Where I'm doing all this work, I'm coming week after week and I am being honest. I'm sharing, I'm doing all this work, I'm making the phone calls, I'm doing everything that I should be doing. And if this person is not doing the same thing, there's this like off kilter kind of and it just, it's not a safe place for me to share. And so this question is really coming from a perspective of maintaining that safety from, for the group. And I love what you said, Nick, because I don't even think. I have not been in that situation before where I've considered having to kick someone out of group unless it was toward me. It's almost considering me getting out of group then maybe, I mean, maybe for sure. But that's a good perspective and I'm glad that you said that because I think that that helps reframe a little bit to looking at all the factors, not just is this person sober or not, but this is a reality of group that if someone is not committed to group and is not showing up and is not doing the work consistently, I mean, they need to start having some conversations. So let me, I want to ask you, Dan, because I know that you have conversations with online leaders all the time about this. What does that look like if someone is Consistently relapsing isn't committed to the group. What does that conversation look like to them leaving the group?

Yeah, and I think the conversation often starts with I've got a guy, he keeps relapsing and I'm worried about the rest of the guys. They're the ones. Yeah, they might get. Or I've heard they're discouraged because this guy keeps relapsing. And so immediately the conversation turns to hey, this is, this is a process that, where we're responsible for our own healing. Their relapse has nothing to do with your own healing. So we try to talk about momentum. Where is the momentum in their, in their healing process? Are they like Nick was mentioning? It's. If it's a one thing focus, we're going to be frustrated. But if you can watch and see, hey, they are coming to group, they're doing the work. I can see some self discovery that they've made. Things like that keep them coming back, encourage them to continue to dig in. If a guy comes and he's relapsing the same way every week. I think we've mentioned this before. It's like, well, I don't think you're taking it seriously because if you really were, you would know that, you know, locking your computer in the trunk of the car and then going out and getting it at 9pm Every night isn't going to work. There may be something else you have to do.

I'm sorry that I'm laughing if that's someone's relapse pattern. I just, I mean it's so easy to get into that mindset. Yeah, just live in denial.

Exactly. So it makes you feel good in the moment because I'm doing something and then you immediately go undo that.

So yeah, I think we want to remember that relapses are the outcome of decisions, not really the source. And if we focus on the outcome and don't help them address the source, it's not going to accomplish as much. So in that conversation you're asking about Trevor. I think that's the situation whether I'm a group member or the group leader or just a friend who's concerned that I come alongside them and not say why do you keep relapsing? But to look at those areas of commitment and truth and guardrails and the deeper work and ask how are these things going? And if they self acknowledge, I mean that's kind of the key in the conversation too. If they self acknowledge. Yeah, I have zero guardrails. I'm not Doing the work now that becomes a focal point of group participation. Is this group really right for you? Because that's something we're committing to do. Another tool that is really helpful in those conversations is to turn back to someone with the covenant to contend in the workbook and walk through the commitments that we make at the beginning and say, are you doing these things that we committed together we're going to do? Because usually in those difficult situations, the person can self acknowledge. Nope. No Four or five of them, like, I'm not doing. And you could say, are you willing to. Because if their heart is in the right place, like, yeah, this is a good wake up call. Thank you. I'm committing. That may be okay, let's see how it goes for the next few weeks. Or that could be. And they're like, I don't really think I can. It's like, hey, great, I love you and care about you, but this group isn't the right place for you right now.

All right, so at what point then do we suggest, and I know we have, I believe we have some documentation on when to refer out, but at what point do we suggest to somebody additional help if relapse is consistently happening?

Yeah, well, hopefully it doesn't take that to get to the point where we're offering additional help. In my mind, additional help should always be an option and always be encouraged because we don't want to associate the next level healing with your next level brokenness. You know what, Trevor, you're cool, but Nick, you're gonna have to go to some counseling. I really suggest.

And that would keep other group members from ever even acknowledging they might want it or need it.

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I think for if someone is truly in a pattern and they really want to, to overcome or to address it differently, they're going to be open and honestly asking for, well, what else do I do? I don'. No, I'm really stuck. Tell me, help me out here.

Yeah, that's a really good point that we have said probably 30% of people in group will need additional help, will need counseling to work through their issues. We want to clarify that doesn't mean the 30% who relapse the most.

Right.

It's not just like a cutoff of the biggest relapsers because someone who's in a very sporadic relapse pattern of maybe every few months or once or twice every year, they may have just as deep of issues. And I feel like this is a little bit of my story where I wasn't in this huge, consistent relapse pattern. But I was very unaware of the deeper things that were driving me. And I'm not sure without the counseling help if I would have been able to see them. And so in a typical group, I think it would have been unusual if they were just focused on relapses for a leader to say, hey, Nick, I think you need counseling help. But it was the mindset that you're bringing up, Dan, that any one of us might benefit from that counseling. And if we're stuck somewhere, seek it out. And so I think there's never a bad time to offer additional help and suggest that it might be useful to someone.

Yeah. Rodney Wright's words. Healthy people seek help. And seeking help is not a sign of your. I'm gonna mess it up, Rodney. I'm sorry. It's not a sign of your weakness. It's a sign of your wisdom. And I love that. I've always loved that and think that's so true, that we should actually be like, high fiving and chest bumping. That's a total, like. Okay, I just definitely gave the masculine version. Whatever. Chest bumping is a gender fluid thing. Right. Like, whatever. Anyways, stop, Wait. I know. It's just. Okay. Recentered. So I think that it's something that we should be congratulating people and pushing them and encouraging them that this is a step they're wanting to take because they're taking it that. That much more seriously, the recovery that they need. I think it's a huge thing. Yep.

For sure.

So, guys, this has been a great conversation. Hopefully one that's got both group members and group leaders alike thinking about what do we do in these situations? And if someone is listening and they feel like I'm the one that keeps relapsing. I hope you've picked up some tools and ideas of what you could address in your own story, because many of us have been there where we're stuck in a pattern we don't understand and we feel stuck. And so as we wrap up today, any other encouragement for men and women in groups who have group members consistently relapsing? Anything you'd like to say to them today?

Yes. Don't make a gender fluid chest bump illustrations on podcasts about it. No, I think. And this is something I literally have in my office, and I haven't changed it because it continues to be something that's an encouragement to me. Control what you can control. I think that that's just such an important piece specifically for people who. And I think it is sympathy. I think it is empathy that you feel for this group member who man just is in this pattern and they can't break out. And we've all felt that wherever we're at in recovery, we have felt that before, that powerlessness, that hopelessness that sets in. And so I think that controlling what you can control, your own recovery, your own effort, your own willingness to be vulnerable and honest and put the work in, that's. That is, I think the best encouragement I can give from where I sit is just control what you can control, continue doing the work, and that is going to help create the best group member or group leader that you can be if you just continue controlling what you can control. Yep. Yeah.

And it is a long journey to get to health, and relapse is a part of it. So it's not unexpected. And I think there's also this tension that I've held. And I hear a lot of people, it's like relapse brings this consequence that I don't want versus relapse is a tool for which by which I can grow. And it feels like we tend to fall on one side or the other. I hear men excusing their relapses, saying, oh, but look what I learned. Like, almost like a, yeah, well, let's go see what else we can learn this week. And then others who are just simply focused on this is the consequences to me, my wife, my family are so, so dire that I don't want to delve into what. What I can learn. And so they're both true. Everything belongs. Both sides have value and don't overvalue one or the other.

Yep.

And again, very long journey. Keep going. You're going to never lack for things that you can discover about yourself.

Yeah. I was thinking of the words of Jenna Reimersma and when she talks about do a U turn, that if we're the leader and someone's continuing to relapse and we're finding ourselves frustrated, angry, you know, whatever emotions are coming up, doing that U turn to say, what about their struggle is triggering something in me? Is it that I feel ineffective as a leader? Does it make me feel powerless? Does it make me feel unheard? Because those are. Those are me issues that I need to work on. You know, if you're continuing to relapse and I'm getting angry, my anger is not your fault. That's just like for the relapse or the relapse is their choice. My anger is my choice. And I need to be able to look and go, why am I having a hard time with this as the leader? And from that, then I can learn and I can grow and I can become a better leader. And the last thing I would say, you know, I had a good pastor friend of mine who pastored a large, large church, and he said, you know, one of the hardest things about being a pastor is you can preach the word of God to the very best of your skill and ability. And at the end of the day, the people go home and do whatever they want. And that truth, like, for us as a group leader, you can be doing everything right, and someone can just be shipwrecking their life. And it's kind of that idea. It sounds trite, but I mean it. You can't win them all.

Yeah.

You can't save everybody. And I think sometimes as a group member and a group leader, we have to remind ourselves, I'm not the one that fixes people. That's the Holy Spirit's work in their life. And someone in our group, they might not make it. And that does not have anything to do with me.

Well, that and. And I feel like this process is always honored. At some point, even if it may not be in the moment, there is. There's a truth that is being issued into that person's life. And even if it doesn't show up that day that year, yeah, it's there. And it. When it's important, they're going to be able to come back to it. So our. It's not fruitless. Even though.

Yeah, it's like the New Testament idea that some get to sow and some get to water, some come along and they get to be a part of the harvesting. And maybe in a person's life, we are just planting some seeds, and they still have some hard things they need to go through. But down the road, when there is a harvest of freedom in their life, we can be a part of their story. So that's a great perspective, Dan, just to keep in mind of, I want to play my role in their life. However, God can use me. And if it doesn't lead to that freedom harvest that I hope for, to just trust that God's still at work in their story.

So this is such a tough situation to be in, because you care for these people in group and you don't want relapse to be something that's just a part of their weekly pattern. But there are things that you can do to help create a culture around you. There are ways that you can make groups safer. There are ways that you can encourage this group member. And we just want to encourage you. If you are a group member or a group leader, do not care more about someone else's recovery than they do. You worry about your recovery and you worry about you being a part of a safe culture that allows people to be honest and open and process their story and do the worker recovery. So again, tough situation, but it can be handled well. And I think all of us have seen it handled well. So thanks for the conversation. Dan, thanks for being here, man.

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness. And lastly, never stop being healthy.