200 - Favorites, Feedback, and the Future

Foreign.

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. Your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. May the fourth be with you, listener. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 200 of the Pure Desire podcast. That's right, 202 bills, 2 hundo. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumble.

One small step for man, one giant leap for pure Desire kind.

What does that mean, pure desire kind?

Like, I don't know. I mean the quote is mankind. But that felt very, you know, gender specific and unhelpful were pure Desire kind. I guess.

And for all the listeners that thought I had a lisp at the Beginning, today is the 4th of May. May the 4th be with you.

Oh, I really hope you post this on May 4th.

Then it's coming out.

OK.

It's 100% coming out on May 4th.

Well, yeah, because that has to be the day. The 200th episode.

Boom.

It's got to coincide.

So great. Okay.

It's exciting to celebrate.

200 and thank you for being a listener. We have a giveaway for you. To enter this giveaway, just take our survey and I promise it's like two questions. Go to PureDesire.org 200. We want to know what your favorite episode is and if you fill out the survey, we'll pick a winner and guess how much you'll get off at the PD online store. $200. $200 off if you go to PureDesire.org 200 and take. I should have made the survey. 200 questions.

I shouldn't have. Dang it.

I missed that. That was my opportunity. It's only two questions. If you fill it out, we will pick a winner and we will give you $200 off at the PD online store.

That's pretty good, man.

Again, PureDesire.org to Hyper. All right, so we sat down with our producer today, Justin Watson, which you'll hear, got to sit at the big boy table today. I feel so bad saying it because he's actually sitting right next to me as we record this intro. But we had him on to talk about fun feedback and our favorites feedback and. Right. Is that what it is? Favorites, feedback and then really what the future is for Peter Dale.

There you go. Yeah, it just seemed like a really good point to kind of reflect, have some fun, have some conversations just about like, what do we hear from people? How can we respond? And I think if anyone's listened to more than like five episodes, you'll really appreciate this because they'll have a lot of context for what we're talking about. If you happen to be tuning into the Pure Desire podcast for the very first time. Thank you so much. But I just want to say, like, this may not be the best episode to start with, because there's definitely some conversations we have that will make a lot more sense if you've listened to a few other episodes. So keep that in mind. But I know for most of you, you maybe haven't heard all 200, but what we find, most listeners have heard quite a lot of them. So we hope that you have as much fun listening to this as we did making it.

Yeah, we absolutely did. And I think there's some good stuff in it. Definitely a few things. Subscribe to the podcast that's on all the major platforms. You can follow us also on social media earedesirepdmi. And then full episodes of this now are up on YouTube. Also, want to just mention if you'd like to give back to others on their recovery and healing journeys, you can just visit Pured Des. Okay, so here's our conversation. You, me, and Justin Watson, and we're just talking about favorites feedback in the future.

200.

All right, Nick.

Justin, we've done it. We've officially made it to 200 episodes.

Wow.

200. 200.

I feel old.

You're not 200 years old.

You're the oldest at the table.

But I've been around long enough for 200. If you're on for 200 of anything, it feels like that is.

Right. So how many. So, I mean, like, put it into just, like, context. Like, how many weeks. Years is that, that we've been doing this now? Feel like you. Like, I forget and I don't think about it, but you're like, you know what?

It's one a week, Trevor. Right. So that's 200.

200 weeks, which is how many years?

That's just under four years. So 208. Unless there's a leap year in there.

That's a great question.

Enough of those could be true, but 208 would be four years of this.

Yeah, we're close. We're really close. That's crazy. That's really crazy. I've been. I've been here, I think, in two weeks. Well, yeah, just like. Yeah, yeah, it is. It'll be four years, a couple weeks after this video, after this episode's released. It's crazy. And, Justin, you've been here for almost. It's been a year and a half, but how many episodes.

1.72 years to be exist. 630 days.

You should push up your glasses.

Like, wow. And so if you do the math that, it's 89.44 episodes I've done. It's actually only 89.

We never record a 0.44 episode. Just so everyone's aware, it's not like.

This Special podcast, episode 111. Justin came in. You'll hear there's a click, and that's our producer jumping on board.

Well, and actually there was one or two episodes I didn't do, so.

That's true.

86 episodes about.

Yeah, those are the ones I did. And I'm so sorry to one of.

Those recorded through one mic.

Oh, right. Do you remember the PDL episode we did with Cal?

Yeah, my mic was off. I'm trying to hold on to that.

Yeah, I tried to forget.

That was totally.

Like I was shouting from a code class. I'm here too.

Why can't you hear, Nick? It's like Trevor only wanted Trevor to be hurt.

And there was also two episodes mid Pandemic where you were also home with a new baby.

That's true.

And so rather than more producing them, I just recorded them over zoom with guests. And I don't think Justin was involved in those either. Even though you were on staff. I kind of look back and wonder, why did we do that? Why didn't Justin set something up? And. I don't know. We were going with the flow. It was Cody, honestly.

Yeah. And if you've listened for 200 episodes, you're committed. So it's like we could totally screw even this episode up. You'll probably listen next week.

And we appreciate that.

We appreciate that.

We do.

Absolutely do. It has been. And amazing. Like, it's amazing. 200 episodes is amazing.

And it's.

I mean, I'll speak for me, this is my favorite part of the job. This is my favorite thing that we get to do week in and week out. We get to record and have really what I. And they're helpful for me. Conversations, you know, like, they're things that I like talking about and, like, learning from. And so I just. I'm thankful, Nick, you and I have been together for. You were off a couple episodes toward the beginning. I was, you know, I don't know, however many episodes ago, but we've been on about 198 together, and it's been fun. And then Justin having you for 86, 88.44, whatever, nine. Whatever has been awesome, too. And so just thanks for being a part of a fun part of my job. So I appreciate you both just being a part of it.

Yeah, I'm thinking, like, I jumped into this right after I was hired, and so it's been like, fire hose. I had no idea what pure desire was, who pure desire was before I started. And so it's like, fire hose. I'm listening to. Listening to every episode, you know, two to three to four times. Walking through it and.

Right.

Yeah.

Because it was that bad and I needed that much editing.

Three to four times. Well, you know, we got the audio version, the video version, the recording. It's at least three just from that.

Totally, totally. So for the 200 episode, we are going to mix it up a little bit. We're going to reflect on the past 100. So 100 or 101 to 199. And we're gonna look at it, pick some of our favorites, talk about what we've enjoyed, what we've liked. Then we're gonna look and maybe address a little bit. Not maybe. We are gonna address some of the feedback and pushback that we've gotten on some of the things we talk about and how we talk about it. And then lastly, we're gonna look at where we're going as a ministry looking at the future, which is why this episode is titled what it Favorites, Feedback in the Future. So thank you. Thank you.

And I think we should point out this is the first time we've allowed our producer Justin to sit at the table.

That is true.

Isn' like, usually he has to be across the room or like his own.

Desk in a cage.

So this is really a special episode. It's like, okay, you can join the. The adult table. Oh, my gosh.

I was gonna say. Here comes the condescending comment. I was gonna say it. I was gonna say, how does it.

Feel to be at the producer seeing.

A plastic table, you know, with yellow.

Yes. I just thinking, though, like, for producers around the world, this is a victory because every radio show that I've seen, like, yep. When they put it on tv, the producer's, like, in their own little room behind glass. So you get to be right in it with us, Justin. And we're grateful for that.

We're just breaking ceilings all around here, man.

That's what we do.

Yep. All about it. All right, so let's jump in right now and start with the fun, the things that we've enjoyed, highlights from the last 100 episodes. Think full episodes, moments, maybe even some funny things. Just what have you guys enjoyed over the last 100 episodes?

Yeah. A lot of people comment on my intros and the things we've done there. And so that's a fun part for me of trying to get creative and think what's next and getting feedback from other people. And when we travel to events, I'm almost always having someone say, oh, you should do this, or they'll mention that. And I was thinking about those. The ones I've enjoyed in the last hundred episodes. I always enjoy it when I've stumped Trevor because he's such a wealth of knowledge on music and movies. If I can bring something up that he doesn't know, it's like, wow, that's like a victory. So when I. And I'm finding there's two areas that Trevor's a little weak in. It's like 1980s commercials. Like, I brought up Robble. Robble from the McDonald's commercials.

I was born in 88.

And also a good excuse. Yeah. Things that involve, like, 1980s Christianity, spirituality, jingles, like, churchy stuff. That's. That's not his forte either.

I didn't love Jesus till the 90s.

You know that's right.

Do you track that, too? So when you track the intro and the episode number, does Trevor win or lose in that?

You know, I have a scoreboard in his office. He would be, like, in the 95% range, though, because he usually knows the references. And I also enjoy the ones where I really feel like people probably walked away singing the song because they know, like, I led into little Einsteins in one. I led into VeggieTales. It's fun to think of that kind of listener connection of, I wonder how many people today are walking around humming Little Einsteins. They're like, dang it. It's the podcast. I heard Nick sing it, and I can't get it out of my head. Even if it annoyed you, I appreciate, like, those little connections, you know, and the ones that just make you guys laugh where you have to stop. And I was thinking of when we found out there were two cats named after us. And I used the meowing of cats as an introduction. And we almost had to take, like, a break in that episode for Trevor.

I feel like you forgot about that.

Get composure. Well, it is good to remember that right now there are two cats listening, most likely, maybe at least, you know, terrorizing someone's house named Little Trevor and Little Nick.

My only name. Sake in life.

Good times. But no, in seriousness. I think when I looked back through kind of our Role of the hundred episodes, the ones that really stood out to me, the number of guests we had that it just. It's so neat to hear from people like Kurt Thompson, the author of Soul of Shame, Jenna Reimersma, author of All Together, your, Paul Young in the Shack. And we interviewed them not just because they wrote a book, but because they had a perspective that we felt would add to the kind of things we want to talk about. Nate Larkin, Mo Isom.

Just people that.

They're not necessarily pure desire voices, but they are bringing a dynamic of recovery, of health, of freedom that we feel is valuable. And I've just loved their perspective. And then I also thought of the episodes. I just really like when it's you and I and Heather or someone else on staff, and we're not necessarily interviewing an expert. We're just getting to talk about a topic that is not always easy to talk about, because I look at that, really, as one of the purposes of this podcast, and it's to have the conversations that a lot of people just aren't having or don't know how to have. And so hopefully, in us just treating it like a normal conversation, it's helping others enter into that in a deeper way. And so I think those are the ones that stand out to me.

That's cool. Yeah.

You know, when I was thinking about episodes, I thought of the Mythbusters episodes. I think those are always some of my favorite. Just the idea of taking a common phrase or common thought that we know is prevalent, you know, when it comes to recovery and addiction and then just busting that myth is really cool. The ones I wrote down, not in my church. Sex addiction isn't about sex. Like, some of these are just really powerful conversations that, you know, I feel like we got into. Some of my other favorites were the versus episodes. Really putting in perspective, accountability versus recovery groups.

Yeah.

And then I wrote the Healthy versus Sober sobriety. Yeah, Healthy versus Sobriety. Just great episodes to really, you know, break through some of those stigmas that, you know, we kind of carry and really poor teaching throughout, you know, our lifetimes.

Yeah, that. That's really interesting, because I'd never even thought of those as versus episodes. Like, that's a theme, a genre that's good all of its own that we could develop, because there are a lot of those.

That's why you guys pay me the big bucks.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

So I. Oh, yeah, the spoon episode. Like, you remember when you had a spoon? Okay. So my favorite part of editing is when we have a moment in the Office. It's hilarious, right? And then I go back and I re edit it, and I'm just like a schoolboy at my desk relaughing at what happened. And when I edited the spoon episode, I don't even know if we released that episode.

What happened with the spoon? I can't remember.

You had a spoon that you were stirring your hot chocolate with or something. It was sitting there and then you hit it.

Oh.

And so the Trevor's like, why do you have a spoon? It was this whole thing of, like, I didn't expect.

That's awesome.

Anyways, those kinds of moments are really fun for me. Or our intros with Dan and Jen often.

Okay.

I was going to say 10 minutes to start the episode.

Oh, my gosh. You guys don't get.

So they don't get to hear that.

The pre episode. No, you. Like, honestly, you would. As a listener. You would love to hear the pre episodes. I think I would say Dan Howey and Ashley Jameson both. They're like, when we welcome them and they say hello and how awkward and weird it is. It's just. It's perfect. I just. I would not want it any other way. And then having Bob Vandermeer and Rodney Wright is always super fun. Just their energy and their sarcasm and humor's great. I also put mythbusters, the infamous group members. I thought that one was fun and triggering. Cause I'm all four of them. But I will never forget the ifs one we did with Jenna. And I know we did it over zoom, but all of her figurines that she had and just. I've gone back and watched that episode a number of times. Yeah. And I just. Oh, I don't know if you guys remember this. We had Ashley and Heather take over for two episodes, and those were fun. I just listened to those again recently, and that was fun. We need to do that again. We do. Definitely.

We do. We need to have the women's takeover.

Yes, we do. Yes, we do. So, yeah. Gosh, we've had a lot of fun. That's been really cool the last 100 episodes. And man, it makes me excited for the next 100. For sure.

Yeah.

Wow.

Well, we're gonna. We're gonna keep at it. You know, should the Lord, Terry and this medium continue to be.

I don't. I'm never.

That's going backwards.

That's a very 1980s.

Okay, there you go. 1980s Christian. At least I'm consistent, guys.

Yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah. We're going to keep going with these and one of the things we wanted to do as we reflect on the episodes, you know, when, when we talk for 45 minutes to an hour for a hundred times, we are bound to say things that are challenging or hard to swallow or that, you know, hit someone the wrong way. And we get some feedback. We hear from people. And on the flip side, we hear from a lot of people about how much this helps them, what they appreciate. So thank you for all of you that send in that. But many of you also send in things that concerned you or questions you had or some pushback. And we appreciate that too, because it helps us kind of hear through a different lens how something is landing for people. And one of the things we wanted to do today is tackle some of those things rather than just pushing aside and acting like there's never pushback, to talk through some of it and maybe bring perspective of why we bring up some topics the way we do or how we feel about it. And so, Trevor, why don't you kick us off with that? What's some of the pushback we've had and how would you respond to it?

Yeah, so a few, I mean, I wrote down a few things. The first one is, and maybe we could roundtable on this one, too, is minimizing addiction and its effects, really, when talking about trauma and woundedness and the way it affects a betrayed spouse. But then also just the way that we talk about it can often seem like we're blaming our family of origin or the things that happened to us when we were a kid, you know, growing up in the church. I think that for me, the perspective that I often hear from this pushback is we're not taking our sin seriously or we're not calling it what it is that it is sin instead of just this brokenness or responding to wounds. And in reality, I think we come at it. And again, I want you guys perspective. I think we come at it in a way that most of the people we help and the people who listen come from that background. And so there's this preset of understanding that we've tried and we've talked about this like the Jesus way or the try harder, pray more, read your Bible, more perspective. And that doesn't work. I mean, it didn't work for any of us, like, that's for sure. And we've heard that story thousands and thousands and thousands of times. And so I think that what we're trying to do is just create a fuller picture. It's not that our brokenness in the area of Sexuality isn't sinful. It is sinful, and it is damaging. But we're also trying to come at it from a way where we're not shaming ourselves and other people. We're trying to give them a fuller picture, almost like more language, to better tell their story and understand what's happening.

Yeah, it's a challenging one, because I think there's something in us that feels right about a message of, like, this is sin. And if we just name it and we rebuke it and we surrender it, we count ourselves dead to sin. We are reconciled through Christ. And there's biblical truth to that that I think is a part of what we want to embrace. But what we've seen at pure desire, and for so many of us in our experience, we feel like that's the angle we have walked in. But it didn't necessarily create lasting freedom because we didn't know the addictive systems. We didn't understand the brain pattern. We didn't understand the realities of neurochemicals and the kind of things we talk about. And so I know there are episodes where we don't remind people, hey, the foundation of this is there is something here that God has called us to a standard that we agree with and believe in, and we want to make that our focal point. But many of us haven't been able to make much progress there, and here's why. So maybe I think what happens is we make some assumptions about theology and scripture. Like, yeah, that's, of course, that's the foundation. But we probably don't say it often enough because we do want to be clear. Like, sexual addiction is a sinful thing. It is wrong, and it is a moral problem that we need to bring to God and surrender and find grace and forgiveness. So when we talk about addiction or the brain or wounds, it's not in any way to nullify those things. It's more to explain, how can all of that be true? And yet I still do it, because I think that's where most of us were caught, was like, I've surrendered this darn thing so many times, I feel like it's now pointless because it's obviously not working. What else am I missing? And so that's the question we're trying to answer. But again, if it ever seems like it's to excuse someone from responsibility, to say, oh, it's really not your fault, that would be an incorrect takeaway from our approach and the kind of things we're trying to encourage people in.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's a 200 episode long conversation we've been having.

Right.

It's not just 45 minutes in a vacuum, but it's really, you know, there are episodes where that is heavy in there, you know, and there are episodes where brain is heavy and they're just different aspects. And so, yeah, I think recognizing that 200 episodes in there's a conversation that's been happening and if you just jump into one and then blow that one up for whatever reason, that's not really fair. I mean, think about Paul and if you just look at Paul where he says, I did things I didn't want to do and didn't do the things I wanted to do, but you never see that he also calls himself chief among sinners. Like he's not dismissing his behavior. He's saying in another place. He's also saying, I'm the chief among you.

Yeah, totally.

I was thinking about that too, how these are conversations. These aren't like theological treatises that we've studied for hours to now bring a formal presentation on trauma or addiction. We have experience and backgrounds and things we've studied, but we're corresponding with guests and one another and we're trying to just talk. And sometimes when you talk, it's not always a well formulated thought. And I know there's episodes, if I went back and listened, I wouldn't agree with myself 100% of the time. And that's not to say we're trying to be an error or it's just maybe to remind the listener. We're trying to have a conversation with you. And if some parts of it you're not sure about, that's okay because we're probably not totally sure either. I think talking about it and conversing is actually part of how we wrestle through what do we feel, what do we believe? And if we can all do that together and kind of have some grace for those moments like eh, I'm not sure that's. I agree with that because I have those two. Like, yeah, I'm not sure I said that the way I meant to. But it's recorded and on we go and we'll get back to it on the next episode.

Well, and I would say that too, when it comes with guests. I mean, we have different guests on that have different perspectives and come from a different maybe line of thinking or maybe even theology. That doesn't mean that like at the end of the day we all agree all the time about all the things that were said. Like if we do think that we personally said something wrong or need to address something we have. But I mean, I just think about all the different perspectives we've had from all these different people who come from all these denominations and backgrounds that we're just trying to explore is the word that I feel like that comes to mind. We're exploring this topic and trying to explore what it looks like to better understand it and how to heal Another big one. And this is one of the only negative reviews I've seen on itunes is and it's titled Gospel Poor, which as soon as I read that I just was like, oh no, I'm just gonna read it really quick. And then Nick, I'm curious what you would say to it. It's unfortunate. With a platform that reaches vulnerable and hurting people, there could be so much done for the preaching of the gospel and the restorative truth that abundant grace is our only salvation. Behavior modification methods, tools, tips all fall short of the throne of grace. Emphasizing anything above that is chasing a band aid, a false hope ourselves. There's certainly a place for human practicality, but the gospel should take up the majority of each conversation on this show. Right now, it's the occasional supporting actor amidst talks sprinkled with Christian language. On this podcast, white knuckling isn't worth comparing to falling into the arms of Jesus daily. Matthew 3. 5 We snack on human level hope when we could be hungering for righteousness and finding fulfillment in Jesus. I'm afraid these talks delay such surrender. Be a self help podcast if you'd like and many will still be helped. But there's no need to claim Jesus if he doesn't have the place of king and father.

Yeah, I mean, I think anyone that's listened to us very long knows that we're not into behavior modification, self help, or white knuckling, that we're not just giving some human behavior tools. So I think that's a little exaggerated, but I understand where they're coming from, that we don't spend all our time talking about the Bible and scripture verses.

It's not preaching sermons.

It's certainly the foundation. And I get where they're coming from. Especially if, you know, in some of our faith traditions at church, there is kind of that dynamic of, hey, anytime you preach any sermon from anywhere in the Bible, it ends with Jesus and the cross. And I think that's a neat way of preaching and I think there's a lot of value in it. But I've also sat in a lot of churches where it feels like the preacher's like making an Artificial turn to like. Well, and we need to include how this is biblical in Jesus. And so what I would say to that, we find that the biblical piece is the foundation that we're starting from. And that for most of us and most people that come to pure desire, that's not what they're lacking. That most of us have sat in churches where we hear Jesus and we know Jesus and we love Jesus. And I mean, my story is like, for all these years, like, how do I just surrender well enough to Jesus and receive his grace and being prayed for at altars? And like, I was taking that gospel centered approach and there was a lot of rightness to it, but still struggling. And so I think what we have found through pure desire is what can we help people understand about their faith journey that they might be missing to add to.

Yeah.

The deep foundation and internal truths not replaced in salvation, not replace or take.

That spot, but to. Yeah.

So it's fair in that we maybe make some assumptions that when someone comes to the podcast, they are getting Jesus through their church, they're hearing messages about grace and salvation and walking in surrender and. And that they're actively participating in that. But what they're likely missing is the conversations we're having. And so we feel like for our listeners, we don't know that we need to double down on the Jesus message they're getting through their church. And there's so many. I mean, let's be honest, there are so many podcasts, there are so many books, there are so many places you can go to get a great gospel centered. You know, let's lean into Jesus. And I'm thankful for that.

Yeah.

But how many places are there that have a biblical worldview that are really talking about addiction, the brain recovery? And so we're not trying to replace any of that. We're trying to build on that foundation to maybe add to the conversation in a way that a lot of us had never even thought about until someone, you know, said to us, hey, have you considered the way your brain is wired for addiction? It's like, what?

Yeah.

And that's not to in any way supersede or replace scripture.

Right.

It's to add to that understanding of, like we already said, why do I do what I don't want to do? Yep.

Yeah, I think too, that there are often times where it's like, some people are gonna approach it and it won't be biblical enough for them, and other people are gonna approach it and won't be clinical enough for them. You know, with the wide variety of people and backgrounds and trauma stories and all these things that are represented in our listeners, it won't be one or the other. And so, again, it's a part of a large conversation, and each episode can't be taken just by itself. But honestly, too, like, you know, some of the worst sermons are. All of the worst sermons are the ones that don't have some practical application I can walk home with. And every podcast, I feel like people can walk away knowing, here's the next steps for me. Here's what I do with this information, and I think that's helpful for people to continue.

What else, Nick? Have you had any pushback or feedback that you think we should address?

Yeah, I think we get a little bit of pushback that you and I, Trevor, as hosts, are men, and that our story is more on the struggler side and that we're not taking seriously enough the betrayal trauma, the wounds of spouses. And I want to, I guess, say we hear that we understand, like, as men, we're limited in our perspective, and that's why we try to frequently have on Heather and Ashley and Jen and outside voices, because it's not 100% our, you know, perspective. And I think because of that, we've gotten pushback. That's like, well, you're too lenient on the addict, or you're downplaying their behavior. You're not taking it serious enough. What I recognize is there's kind of a spectrum where on one end, you might put the real extreme betrayal trauma perspective that would say every guy who's ever lusted is an addict and is an adulterer and could be divorced if they want. And everybody. Every spouse is a victim and has been wounded. Like, that's. And there's some voices out there that are really on that side of, like, pretty extreme. The other end of the spectrum is kind of the. It's no big deal. All people do it. We're just gonna struggle.

Yeah.

You know, addiction's not even a thing. Dismissive.

Yeah.

And I think we would look at that and say, well, either end of the extreme is unhealthy and unbiblical and unfair. But whichever side we've maybe had more experience with, whether it's being a struggler or the. Or the betrayed spouse, we might find we lean towards kind of one of those poles. And so we're hearing through that lens where it's like, whoa, whoa, You're. You're dismissing. You're. You know, you're downplaying. It's like, well, I can see how it sounds that way for you, but maybe to the struggler, and that could be male or female, maybe the one who's in addiction to them, it's coming across as empathy and understanding in an area of their life where they've battled deep shame and, you know, beating themselves up repeatedly. To have someone say, we understand. And here's maybe something to help you recognize why you do what you don't want to do. That that's helpful. But on the flip side, I would also just want to say to our listeners, thank you for that feedback, because as two men, and, you know, with Justin joining us as three guys, we want that feedback. We want to recognize this is a people problem, and it affects men and women and spouses and strugglers. And so it is our heart's desire to be balanced, to understand both sides. And so when you feel like we haven't represented one of the sides, well, whichever side you're on, let us know, because it's helpful. I think it refines the way we talk about things and can help us see, oh, here's a gap. Here's something we didn't really address. So again, if you kind of feel like, oh, they don't get where I'm coming from, well, you know, keep listening because we'll probably have a guest on that totally gets where you're coming from.

And I mean, with the point of the feedback, like a lot of the listeners, you guys send in emails to us with suggestions. I mean, those go directly to my inbox. If you're wanting to have a conversation with me, don't just respond to one of those. If you have a podcast recommendation, do it. But I think that that's the cool thing about this podcast and the fact that it's ongoing is if we have a conversation, it's like, oh, well, I don't feel like this perspective was reflected in that conversation. You know, it's great. In 10 episodes, we can do another one. And here it is. Here's that other perspective. Here's that other side, and that could be male or female. And we've done that. We've come back and be like, you know what? Because of some of the comments we got, let's come to the other side of this and let's talk about it. Like, you talk about things like disclosure and honesty. You know, I know, Nick versus episode, right? Totally right. Yeah, that's true. And, you know, you think about one conversation is never going to be enough to fill that out. And so we look at this as that ongoing conversation, like, you know, we're gonna do some more mythbuster episodes, FAQ episodes. We don't think that's gonna answer the question. And then it's like, okay, we're never coming back to this topic again. It's really. It's this ongoing thing, and we're happy to do that. I mean, if you look at our episodes too, like, how many episodes have we had in the faster scale? A lot. Because it's something we need to keep coming back to. And so I think with that too, we are not the type of people or organization that are just gonna say, no. We've already established this and addressed this. It's okay. We see the perspective. Let's look at it in a new way and continue the conversation.

As someone who sits in the background on 89.44 episodes.

That's not true. That's not true. You were on camera for one other one.

That's true.

Okay, so 88.44.

I don't know if that math would work out, but yeah. So, I mean, as somebody who sits in the background, I can just say I get to see a lot of the behind the scenes stuff, all of it. And to hear how you guys always are working hard to bring in all perspectives. You know, what often isn't seen is sometimes when something shared. And it's like, let me redo that because I realized how one sided it was, you know, and so then you. We redo that part because we recognize in the moment, but we can't catch everything. And like you said, like, we just did a whole series, Tools for Betrayal. You know, we're all, we are working hard, you are working hard to come back around to, you know, every side, every angle. Male, female, betrayed, addict, all of those different things. And even, like, how to talk with your kids. Like, what does that look like? You know, generationally. And so grace, I think, is a really helpful word here for that.

Totally.

And I think that we. We genuinely do not believe ourselves to be experts in this area, that we know everything and that our perspective is the only one that matters. I think that we are just offering what we have learned. And what Nick and I and our guests, Justin, you included, share is not just what Nick or Trevor or our guest thinks. It tends to be a collective stuff. Like if there's conversations about betrayal where Nick and I, we've never experienced that, we'll have conversations with our female staff who have and said, hey, what about this? We're gonna talk about this question. Do you have any Input or feedback. And so it's something that we don't view ourselves as. It's our perspective and no other's welcome at the table. It's really trying to flesh it out.

Yeah. One of the other things where we've had pushback and you mentioned it, but I just wanted to come back to is where listeners have maybe had disagreements with the theological perspective of guests. And sometimes it's not even what the guest shared on the podcast. It's just something the guest is known for in their books or outside of the podcast. And we'll get like, did you know this person says this? And did you know they believe that? And is that what pure desire believes? And I appreciate the concern, and I appreciate that listeners want to have accurate theology, but maybe to just re. Emphasize what you said that we don't have people on because we 100% agree with them. And so we're saying, well, here's someone we endorse 100%. It's that we've heard, you know, like with Paul Young, it's. We'd heard his story.

Yeah.

And we felt like his story needed to be shared. And he's got theological beliefs that make me raise my eyebrows and it's not how I view things. But yeah, I really appreciate his story and his openness and his willingness to see he had to face really messy stuff and it really hurt people he loved. And he really needed to understand God's grace for himself and not just beat himself up as a dirty little, you know, horrible sinner.

Right.

To me, that's redemptive. And so if a listener heard Paul Young's name and you've got strong theological convictions about why he's wrong, recognize we had just as many people on the other side that wrote in saying this deeply touched my life. I viewed myself through that same negative lens that Paul talked about, and I felt God used it to create some freedom and release. And so that, to me, is the. That's why we do it.

Yes.

Not because we're endorsing Paul or Jenna or Kurt or all the guests we've had, but it's because they've got an angle that we feel contributes to the conversation. So, you know, hopefully we never have anyone on here that we just feel is a blatant atheist or anti Christian or. I don't think we're ever looking to do that, but we'll have people on here we don't agree with. And so if for a listener, you don't like that, I mean, I don't know I guess I'd say we're sorry, but it's gonna be hard for you to find a place where you agree 100% with everyone you're listening to. And if that's our standard, we're gonna really have a hard time learning and growing. And so I hope people would just be open to that, that we wanna learn from people even if we don't agree on everything.

Well, and also, and I don't mean this to be like a passing comment, but there are 199 other episodes you could also listen to. If that one person's perspective is not helpful for you, it's okay. I mean, you can pick and choose. We don't need you to listen to all these or listen to them in order. Just the fact that you listen means something to us as we continue the conversation.

Yeah.

Hey, Justin, I know this is your first time as a table guest. Will you please ask the last question?

Yes, dad. Okay, so what are some things that our faithful followers can look forward to in the future? I reworded that to add in some Fs.

Wow.

Podcast courses, products. What can our listeners expect from pure desire?

Yeah, well, you know, as we've already talked about, we're going to continue with the podcast. We've got, you know, no plans to change. Helping in this way.

My job security feels good about that.

Some things we're working on, you know, from more of the resources side, we're recognizing more and more the need to have digital products, digital workbooks. For some people, that's just their preferred learning method. And even though I feel, and the brain science kind of backs it up, that writing something by hand creates better learning and lasting change, I get that the digital world we're in, some people will not. It's just not going to work for them. And especially for those that live outside of the US Access to the material, if it's only hard copy, is limited. And so within the next calendar year, we're really looking at having all of our major workbooks available digitally. And I think that's exciting for some people. And another area of growth, you know, just continuing to look at how can we get the material into other languages. Because as it's available digitally, that also opens up. Oh, if we just had the translation, we could, within that same kind of digital framework, we could put up the German or the French or whatever else. And a big part of that is because of how many people we hear from that say, you know, there is nothing in our language. And we feel like in the US there's not enough resources, but at least there are resources, you know, and I hear from people in Europe and Asia that just say there is nobody talking about this and can you help get in our language? So that's something that we're very passionate about. We're also right now in the process of kind of revamping and updating the workbooks. And so Seven Pillars is going to be coming out soon with a video course attached to it and updated. A lot of updated stuff in there. And then Betrayal and Beyond is in the works right now as well.

Yep.

Really looking at how do we include more language around betrayal trauma. That really helps a woman up front feel heard and valued and that her, her fears, emotions and the stuff that's happened in the marriage is really validated that she can kind of come to a place of, of mental health and safety enough to look at. Okay, what's next? And yeah, so some of that has been missing and we're excited to see that updated. Also creating, you know, unraveled as our workbook for women who battle their own sexual addiction or struggles. Making a college aged female version of that that would be more for single women.

Yeah.

So kind of a. I don't know if I'd say simplified because it's still going to be a, It's a challenge.

Like living free is to Seven Pillars, this will be too, a version that.

Really is specifically for single women. And so excited to have that moving forward. And you know, then a, a big project that we've had people have been asking about for a long time and we're like, we're working on it, we're working on it, is to really take our group leader training that we would offer like at events or that, you know, our groups team has done online for different churches to turn that into a video course that is accessible from by anyone, anywhere. And we're hoping to do that by the end of the year. So that'll. That'll be exciting to know that a church or a group could just say, hey, if you need to be trained as a leader, go watch these eight sessions online. And at the end you get a little certificate that says, I've gone through the certification how to lead a PD group. And I think for a lot of people that will just help create some consistency in their group experience and in how new leaders get trained.

Totally. Yeah. And another thing too, just this podcast, we're gonna continue having different guests, different experts, different voices to come in and be a part of it. One of the pushbacks and I don't even think I've told Nick this yet, but we have. We posted something on social media about the Enneagram and got a lot of pushback on social media. But I'm having conversations right now with an Enneagram expert that talks about recovery and betrayal and how that can interact with this personality tool or this. I would even say it's like a spiritual formation tool in a lot of ways. But things like that, we want to expand the conversation and offer different ideas and tools for people. I think that that's one thing. But then also, I mean, inside of this favorite part of my job doing the podcast, I also think about what are new series we could do. Maybe we just came up with a new one. We need to title it versus, you know what I mean? But then also just other ideas of what we can do. Different themes, different topics. I will say right now we're gonna do something along the lines of movie or TV characters and recovery. And that's gonna be a lot of fun. Like just looking for also fun and creative ways to have more conversations to help people. Because we also enjoy this. We love doing the podcast. And so, yeah, we've got a lot of cool stuff coming.

I can't believe you guys didn't mention team 58 and continuing to expand that program. Team 58 obviously being our recurring donor program and people deciding that they want to come alongside your desire and help us to go into other countries, help us to, you know, go fully digital, Fully digital companions, just to clarify, you know, but like people who just, you know, love what is happening here, love that lives are being changed and want to be a part of that mission partnership.

Totally.

So Team 58 continuing to do that, continuing to add value to those people and really build a culture and community around the people who are partnering with us in that big way.

So absolutely.

That's all I got, guys. I sit behind the cameras.

Well, I appreciate you saying that, Justin, because I was thinking about it this morning about how many of our listeners, they're regular parts of this show that they tune in. And I know for a lot of you, you're here because this is helping you. It's changing your life. And maybe my appeal to you say, why wouldn't this be a ministry then that you would invest a little bit of your resources in to say, I'm a part of this. I mean, if you. If you're listening every week and it's touching your life, we don't want you to stop giving to your church or pull out of anything you're doing. But we've just seen the power and influence that people who give $20 a month have when that gets multiplied. And, you know, we think about, we've got thousands of people every week that download these, and if even one out of every ten of them said, hey, I'm going to become a $20 a month partner, our ability to take this message to other countries, to create more like it just would exponentially begin to grow. And so as you hear that, that's my challenge to you. Like, could you join us? Could you be a part of this and don't think, well, I don't need to be the 1 out of 10, because then no one does it. Just jump on. And team 58, coming out of Isaiah 58, that Isaiah makes this promise that says, as your salvation and healing comes, you will be known as those that rebuild the broken walls, that rebuild the fallen cities. And that's what all of us are doing together, the listener and host alike, that we're helping people rebuild their lives and restore marriages. And it starts with our own lives and marriages. But then as God, does that work in us, it's coming before the Lord to say, God, how can you now do this through me? And we do it through our story. We do it through engaging with others in group or maybe helping lead, and we can do it by our finances. So Team 58, being that sense of we're all in this together to make a difference in the world and. And listener, we need you. We're glad that you listen and get a lot out of this.

Totally.

We'd love to have you be a part of Team 58.

Yeah, we'll make sure we have the link to join Team 58 in the show Notes. You also will get a little bit of swag. It's going to be a good thing.

There is.

Okay. So, listener, thank you so much for listening to our podcast. We honestly feel honored and thankful that we can put this content out and that it can be helpful to you. Recently had a friend tell me that our voices are basically in people's ears every single day, even while we're asleep, because there are different countries that people are listening to this. Right. And so it's just an amazing, amazing platform and opportunity. And the support and feedback we get from you is so helpful. Continues to really push us to have conversations and explore more of how we can better do this. And we just. We're so thankful. Here's to the next 100 episodes. Get 300. Thanks, guys, for being with me.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, thanks. And I appreciate that. Really. Like, 200 episodes. This is like a celebration of the listener, because if people weren't listening, we would have stopped doing it. And the truth is, people keep listening and they keep telling us it's helpful. And so thank you to all of you that have said, this is helping me, and have sent your feedback, have sent your intro ideas, have sent your. Hey, have you ever thought of doing a podcast on this? I mean, I. I can't tell you how many of our podcasts are, because someone or actually multiple people probably said, hey, could we get an episode on this?

So true.

Obviously, there's not time or space to get everybody's suggestion in, but a lot of our episodes are because you listeners have asked for it. So thanks for being a part of this. And we're celebrating you today as much as we're celebrating the podcast.

Totally.

Yeah.

As always, wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Forget to subscribe to the podcast? Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness. And lastly, never stop being healthy.