201 - What If My Struggling Spouse Doesn't Want Healing?

You're listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. What's up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 201 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood Beautiful day in the neighborhood Won't you be everybody now? Won't you be my neighbor?

Grew up watching that show. There was a season where I became a young adult and was like, show was really weird. And then you get a little bit old and you're like, no. It had its role and function, definitely. And he was supposedly an incredible man.

Yeah. You know, just the song makes me want to, like, take off my jacket and put on a sweater and take off my outfit.

Please keep your clothes on and put.

On my inside shoes. Just brings back, you know, warm, fuzzy feelings of my childhood.

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, today we had. I tried to think of a professional transition from that, but I'll let you do that in a minute. Today we had a first time guest on the podcast, Eileen Fagan. She's one of our clinicians and she was great. She did a really, really good job. We were really thankful for our time together. And we talked about the situation where a betrayed spouse is pursuing their own healing, but their struggling spouse is not.

Yeah. You know, one of the things that I feel like Mr. Rogers is remembered for is his ability to deal with difficult situations in very, like, gentle, safe, approachable ways. You know, whether it was racism and having the. I think it was a black mailman who would come and like, stick his feet in the little swimming pool with him. Or I remember him talking about, like, if you're being abused and what to do and. And he just was able to do it like in this calm Mr. Rogers way that you're like, oh, okay, yeah, that's what we should all do. And, and I think that's today's episode is like, this is a messy, hard situation. If, if we're feeling hurt and betrayed and wounded and we're finally getting help, but the one who has caused the hurt, betrayal and woundedness is. Or doing nothing is like, we may just emotionally be ready to like, explode. Like, ah, what do I do? And I hope today with Eileen Fagan, it's like that Mr. Rogers moment of, you know, here's where you're at, here's what you can do, here's what not to do. And I think there's incredible insight in the things we talked about today.

Yes. Couple things before we get to it, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't run on all the major platforms and give us a review. It helps others find the podcast. You can also follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We are earedesirepdmi. We've got these full episodes now up on YouTube. And then, Nick, we just want to make people aware of this. This is something that's kind of been new as we've moved into 2021. We have this new. This new thing called Team 58. Why don't you tell people about it?

Yeah. Team 58 came from actually Isaiah, chapter 58. And in that chapter of the Old Testament, Isaiah is writing about how if. If the people will honor God. And in this case, it was with how they were fasting, but if they will honor God. There's a promise there that says your salvation will break forth like the dawn and your healing will quickly come. And then he goes on to say at the end that many of you will be those who are able to rebuild the broken walls and restore the cities. And we really kind of captured that idea to say that as we walk in our healing, as God brings salvation and freedom into our lives, and. And we're finding that hope, many of us are the ones who are called to help rebuild broken lives and restore families, and we can partner together in doing that. And so this is the name for those who are regular monthly givers to pure desire. And there's a club, there's a team that we communicate with regularly and are a part of our mission. They're a part of helping people find hope and freedom. And so we just want to invite people to say, be a part of this, because we're. We're a movement that is only just beginning. We know the need is huge and we can't do it alone, but together, by combining our efforts and our prayer and our resources, we can make a difference. And so it's our way of asking people, could you, at even 10 or $20 a month, be a part of Team 58 to be a part of those who are restoring families, rebuilding broken lives? Because we're using our healing that has come to pay it forward to others. And we'd love to see people jump in on that. And when they do, you know, we've got some welcome gifts we send just to kind of say, hey, you're on the team, and we'd be very, very grateful for that.

Yeah, there is some swag in it for you. We pray There is. Yeah. So go. If you'd like to be a monthly giver and part of Team 58, go to PureDesire.org give. And here is our conversation with Pure Desire clinician Eileen Fagan on what if my struggling spouse doesn't want healing? Eileen Fagan, welcome for the first time to the Pure Desire podcast.

Woo hoo. I'm excited to be here.

Are you though? Be honest. Are you excited?

No, I really, I really am.

Okay.

Some of it's nervous excitement.

Yes.

I was gonna say noob, but I'm gonna change that. I'm. What was the word you used?

Rookie.

I am a rookie.

Yes, rookie. Cause rookies have been through the farm system. They've played a lot. I'm talking baseball. Baseball's back. So, yeah, there you go.

Okay.

So we recently did an episode revisiting the situation where a struggling spouse is pursuing their healing and their betrayed spouse doesn't want to pursue their own healing. And we want to really look at the other side of this. And this is something that we've touched on before on the podcast and really is, I think, a frequent theme in a lot of our conversations. But really wanted to revisit this again because it's important to frequent this conversation, this topic, this context that so many people find themselves in. So Eileen, let's start with this. At Pure Desire, we talk about recovery and healing being a family systems issue, meaning both spouses need to have the healing in order for the marriage to be restored and step into that. Why is that? Just from your, you know, as a clinician, from your vantage point, why is it so important that both spouses get healing?

Yeah, you know, we don't. The first thing that pops in my head is that we don't start out as adults. We start out as children and we're in a family system. And so we, between our genetics and our experiences, we are shaped and we learn how to be in relationship with other people. It doesn't just happen. So it is very. And a lot of people ask me this, why do we always go back and you get the picture of the psychologist and the patient on the couch and they're saying, well, tell me about your childhood. And people give a collective eye roll at that sometimes. But it is so relevant because like I said, we learn how to be in relationship by observing the people who were in relationship with. Mostly, mostly that's our parents.

Yeah.

So yeah, it's important for us to all learn our pattern, what makes us tick.

One, what we've seen is if we're married. That relationship is key to life. It's something we're interacting with every day. And when one person changes, for good or for bad, it impacts the whole relationship. And so if we're talking about healing and recovery, it's like there, there needs to be kind of that, that symmetry of both spouses walking in step or it's, it's kind of the analogy of, of like the dog sled team. If you got one dog that's pulling and trying to go forward, another that's off, you know, chasing a rabbit in the bushes, there's not going to be much momentum or forward energy because it's, it's pulling in different directions. And I think that's what we see. Whether it's the struggler getting help or the betrayed getting help. If it's only one or the other, they're kind of pulling in different directions. And they may still be, you know, hitched together and on the same team, but they're not really moving forward. And so I think that's our cry and our passion to just say we want the couple, not only an individual to be able to move forward, but the couple to move forward together as a team.

Yeah.

And Right.

Yeah. And it's funny because we've talked about this. As I was thinking about this conversation, we've talked about the idea of a car accident, that a betrayed spouse is often the one who's in the passenger seat didn't cause the accident to take place, but there still are ramifications. And what's interesting is, you know, and I've seen this as like, my parents and my in laws have gotten older, seeing physical therapy and how the body can break down and whatnot. But the idea that if both get injured in this accident and only one of them is getting physical therapy, it's interesting. I just had this visual of this spouse sitting on the couch watching this other person get better and learn how to walk and do exciting things while they're just sitting on the couch, still hurt and not doing anything to get better. And what ends up happening, I think in that situation is almost a bitterness starts to just fester and then birth. And then that just I think, in a lot of ways intersects the relationship and keeps the relationship from growing. And so it's that idea of if we're both working on stuff, we actually can eliminate that opportunity for bitterness to kind of seep in.

Right, right. Bill and I often use the analogy of a dance with couples. So you have this way of interacting with your spouse and then all of A sudden one spouse starts to change the dance step and you're like, wait a minute, you just changed the dance steps. Now we have to figure out a new way to interact together. So it almost by one spouse seeking healing, it almost forces the other spouse to do something because they have to make a move. And what's the move going to be? Are they going to stay in sync with one another? Are they going to figure out a new dance?

Right. Or stop stepping on my feet?

In my case, yeah.

A good analogy can be painful for a while when those changes happen. So sadly, this is a fairly common situation where a spouse knows that their husband or wife is struggling with some kind of unwanted sexual behavior, but they're not pursuing healing. And it might seem like a silly question, but what are some of the reasons that you have seen why a struggling spouse won't pursue or go after their healing even when their betrayed spouse is maybe asking them to or realizes the need for it?

A loaded question. Because there are different reasons. The first thing that comes to mind for me is fear and shame. So, you know, addictions happen in secret mostly. So when you are working with somebody who's who or living with somebody who is struggling with an addiction, then you see it, but they're kind of hoping you don't see it. So they, you know, get this kind of blinders up. But I think with fear and shame, those are the first two things that the enemy attacks with. So if you think about Adam, when God said, where are you? After the sin, he said, where are you? Like he didn't know he knew where he was, but he said, I heard you coming. This is my interpretation. I heard you coming. And I was afraid because I was naked and I hid. So there's fear and shame right there. So that's one reason. One is that with trauma, you have learned a certain way to not feel trauma. So it feels very exposing to change. And it's a scary thing to do. And then there's the self deception, I'm not hurting anyone else, offense even. There's lots of reasons why.

I know for me that one of the reasons why I think I went to pornography and masturbation was actually a sense of failure. I wasn't able to perform or do well in this area, so I was able to numb out to that. Numb that pain. And interestingly enough, there is that fear of what if I don't do recovery or healing well? Enough? Like what if that fails as well. So in that idea of fear, it's almost a fear to make the effort. Because what if I also fail at this? Like, you know? And so I think there's just this weird almost hurdle that we put in front of ourselves that there's a feeling pressure to perform. And even that makes me want to go numb out even more.

Yeah. So, like, pursuing help is like admitting I'm a failure.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. You know, I think something I saw in my own life, and that I hear often from people in groups, is we have learned to minimize the behavior for so long that we really just feel like our betrayed spouse is overreacting. You know, for my marriage for 10 years, my wife was aware that I had an issue with pornography. I was fairly honest to confess and ask forgiveness. And I'm confident that if in the first year I'd have said, would you like me to pursue help for this? Like, would you like me to go see a counselor? And granted, at that time, we actually didn't know where to go or who to ask. But had I approached it that way, I'm sure she would have said, yes, this hurts me deeply, and I would really like it dealt with. But I continued to stay stuck in that place of, well, you just don't understand, and it's a guy thing, and I don't know why you're so hurt, because it's not even about you. And I was using those rationalizations to not get help. And it really was a turning point for us when I realized that the problem wasn't that she didn't understand. The problem was that I didn't understand.

That's good.

That I really had a failure of empathy, a failure to take seriously her emotions, her feelings, and what she was saying, because I was so stuck in minimizing my own behavior. And so I think for a lot of those who struggle, we've maybe become too comfortable with the garbage in our lives. And when someone else is overreacting, like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You just don't get it.

There's structure to this. It has form to it.

It's like the teenager.

Right.

Whose room is just an absolute disaster. But I know where everything is, and I like it that way. And it's like, if you would make changes, it'd be so much better. But I think that's really where we need those moments to see whether or not I can understand this in my reality. I need to embrace that it's your reality. And if this is the impact it's having on you, it's really a loving, empathetic thing to say. I'm gonna move towards my Healing. Because I don't wanna continue to hurt you.

Right, right. And you hit the nail on the head that addiction is very much a self centered. It's an indication that we're stuck. Michael Dye uses the term spiritual stagnation. And I get this. A pond with a pond. It's just dead. And it.

Yeah.

And so we are stuck. We just feel stuck in it. And we are supposed to be like a river where we continue to move and flow and give life to others and other things. And we're changing. But when we start feeling those what he calls symptoms of spiritual stagnation, addictions, anxiety, overwork, busyness, procrastination, depression. All of those things are symptoms of a bigger problem.

Yeah.

So just a really easy question next. Okay. Let's say we are a betrayed spouse and our struggling spouse is not desiring healing, not making any steps, not pursuing it. Is it ever okay for us to encourage them to pursue their healing?

That's a trick question, Trevor. But if you look at the opposite is to say that it's never okay. That's not necessarily true. I think the key word is encourage.

Yeah.

Because we can manipulate and morph the word encourage to badger, manipulate, pressure. I'm going to covertly tomatoes. Right, right. Encourage would look something like, I feel sad, lonely, disconnected from you and I really need to feel connected with you again. How can we make that happen? You don't even have to. They know what they're doing. Everybody that has an addiction knows what they're doing. But pulling it off of them so that it's not blame, shame, any of that. But you're putting it on you as the spouse, you're putting it on you. Here's how I'm feeling. How can we connect again?

And that's so hard to do without shaming. Because I just man thinking about this question, like, how do you say I would like you to stop doing this because it's hurting me. How do you share that in a way to someone who literally everything that is wrong in their life or every time someone says that, it hits their filter as shame. I'm not good enough. I suck. I need to change. I'm not. Whatever. And so I think that that's the real challenge. But I think I love what you said. What I hear, the way I would phrase that is that you're sharing your needs with your spouse. You're sharing your emotions and your experience. Not in a way where it's condemning, but in a way of. I just want you to know where I'm at and where I'm coming from and to share those needs, because that is something that I think we both can resonate with. Wherever you're at on this map, that our needs being met is something we desire and to have a healthy relationship, I believe at the core is what we desire for a marriage. And so you're trying to craft it in a way that in order for me to feel like this marriage is healthy for me and I feel valued and I want to pursue it, these are the needs that I really I need.

Yeah.

The Bible calls it speaking the truth in love. So the key words there is in love. I miss you, you are the love of my life, and I want to feel connected to you again.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's absolutely important that that betrayed spouse shares the reality of how they're feeling, what they're experiencing, and asking for help and change again, not, as you said, Eileen, not to badger or manipulate, but to ask for. I don't want you to continue to make me feel this way because it makes it difficult for us to have relationship. And it really becomes the foundation. And maybe Eileen's going to talk about this later, so I'm stealing her thunder. And if so, I apologize. But it really becomes the foundation for the betrayed spouse of our recovery action plan, a way for them to really analyze what am I able or willing to put up with in our relationship and what can't I. To give that spouse a voice and a sense of empowerment to say, if you choose to do these things and engage in these behaviors, that's your choice. But I want you to know it makes me feel unsafe. And we're not going to be able to be physically intimate for a period of time until this has changed, or I'm not going to be able to share a bedroom with you, or we're not going to be able in certain situations, even to live in the same home any longer. Because I'm going to need physical space to feel safe and to work through this. And I've had many, many men come into group that that's their starting point is like, well, my wife's angry, and she says if I don't change, she's going to leave me. And their attitude, honestly, is not great. And I look back, my attitude is not great. When I started, it's like, I'm doing this for her and she's blown it out of proportion. But we've just seen so many times that even if that's what gets someone started, like, it can be enough to get them going and get the blinders off. And to say, wow, I'm really doing this to my spouse. And over time, their motive changes. But I think that recovery action plan is really a key tool that this betrayed spouse isn't like forcing change or else, but is able to say, you can continue to make your choices, but you need to know that your choices will have consequences in terms of my ability to be in relationship with you. And so that becomes often. And the encouragement for then the addicted or struggling spouse to go, oh, I don't want that. And so I guess I better deal with this.

Yeah, right. It's not a punishment, you know, what you're speaking about is boundaries.

Yes.

That betrayed spouse has to have rock solid boundaries. And the consequences are just that. They're not punishment. It's a consequence. This is what I can live with. This is what I need to feel safe.

Right.

And this is what will happen if my boundaries are violated. You can wiggle the fence, but you can't cross it.

And it's so funny because I think, I don't believe that this is like outright taught. But there's this implication in the church that to be gracious and be loving is to allow people to live in sin and just wear it and not draw boundaries and not, you know, express your needs to be safe or to be healthy. And I think that oftentimes, here's my. I've never been a betrayed spouse. But here's my guess. There are people who are listening right now who are betrayed spouses that feel this pressure to minimize their own betrayal in order to honor or be gracious or be loving to their spouse. And what Nick and Eileen are both talking about, the idea that these consequences or these realities that come from this unwanted or this harmful sexual behavior have to be identified, they have to be communicated. Because addicts are living in denial. And so if you just allow them to keep going, it's like, well, no, this is not hurting anybody. Until someone says, this is hurting me, you have to change. This is not okay. So I think I just. I'm hoping as I say this, that if you're listening and you're in this situation, it is very difficult to share your needs and express that and to call out what you see of unwanted behavior you see in your spouse. But it's that calling out, it's that encouragement, it's that bringing to light the reality of the situation that's going to motivate change.

Absolutely. You know, when you were talking about that in the church, the term greasy grace came to mind. Where there's this slippery, you know, that you can do whatever you want and God will just forgive you. And, well, you know. And for the spouses that are struggling because the church is telling them, well, you know, the Bible says, don't deprive each other. And feeling like they have to be sexual when everything in them is traumatized is completely unsafe.

Yeah.

So we've already talked about a number of these already, Eileen, but share a little bit more about the impact that you have seen in a family, in a marriage, when only one of the spouses is pursuing their healing after addiction and betrayal. And in particular for this episode, when it's only the betrayed spouse getting help and the struggler is not. What kind of impacts do you see on the family and the marriage when that happens?

You know, I think there's good and bad in that. You know, the difficult part is it disrupts the dance. So the partner that's struggling with unwanted sexual behavior is having to figure out, okay, these dance steps have just changed. How am I going to work within this system now? So that's the not so great part. And sometimes the ante is up, so there may be some more anger in the addict. This dance was working just fine until you messed it up.

Right.

The good part is also that you change the dance steps. But as the spouse gets healthier and starts to realize her own maladaptive ways of interacting with her spouse and starts to change those, then there's also the opportunity for growth. If there's children in the home, the children have a safe place to go. The children can have a parent that is getting healthy. So it can change the dynamic, even for the children, to where this isn't going to go from generation to generation to generation. There's a stopping point.

Yeah. And the betrayed spouse finds their voice, becomes more assertive, becomes more comfortable expressing their needs, and creates a framework to process information more accurately in every context, not just in this one. It definitely disrupts. I think I heard this from Diane Roberts. The idea of. Is it a mobile or a mobile? What do you guys call it? The one that, like, mobile. Okay, thank you. My friend recently said mobile, and I'm.

Like, no, I've always said mobile.

Sorry. Okay, well, to separate it from a.

Mobile, like an automobile.

Got it.

Wait, okay, that'd be automobile.

Oh, okay. That makes sense to me.

Okay. So the listener, the thing that goes above a baby in their crib, that oftentimes families or marriages or cultures in a home are like a mobile mobile. And once one person starts to get Healthier, it makes it off kilter. And now it doesn't move like it used to before. And the family who's still in this unhealth looks at the one who's getting healthy and is like, get back in line. Like, we had a really good system and a really. Which is what you were talking about, Eileen. And so I think that we're gonna run into that. But again, it just creates a lot of tools for someone to process life differently if they pursue their own healing.

Yeah, absolutely. And in the book Facing Heartbreak written by Stephanie Carnes on this very subject, she talks about the patterns, the dynamics in an addicted relationship that the spouse takes on. One of those is parenting. You know, the sense of control. I'm going to tell you what to do and how to do it. Taking care of the addict, over functioning, kind of doing everything. That's one. Another one is trauma bond. So that goes to. That speaks to spousal trauma, probably from childhood, where they're kind of reenacting the same dysfunction that they found childhood.

Yeah. So interesting.

Yeah. Codependency, obviously. That's a big one. We talk about that one a lot. If I'm not okay, you're not. If you're not okay, I'm not okay. And so my job is to make you okay so we can all be okay.

Right.

And then the other one is the over functioning, the overcompensating spouse. That. And this was me. This was my role is I did everything. I worked and I did the finances. I was finishing grad school, I parented the children. I pretty much did every. I did the household task, the chores. And so I was. And I was reinforced for it. I was called superwoman, super mom. And boy, did that feel good. But then my body started to take a hit because I wasn't talking about it. So I got an ulcer. I had to have pre cancer cells removed from my esophagus. So it's going to come out some way. If you're not getting it out your mouth or your hands or you're not talking about it, then your body's going to take a hit from all the extra cortisol and adrenaline.

Yeah. I think what you're speaking about there, Eileen, that I just want to highlight for listeners, is how important it is if we are the betrayed spouse. Yes, we want to still try to have compassion. We want to think about how to be gracious, but at the same time how to not interrupt or intersect between the hard work that God wants to do in the addict or the Struggler's life. Because it is truth that changes us, it is pain that changes us. It is consequences and guardrails that creates changed behavior. Even at that neurological brain level where our brain says, oh, I don't like that, and so I'll move towards what feels better. And so if a spouse is over functioning, just quickly forgiving and say, well, let's just move on. And it's in a way jumping in front of those consequences so the addict doesn't feel them and inadvertently can be perpetuating the system. And so, as hard as it is, just I appreciate how you answered it. Like there are good things and bad things that happen that it's good that you're finding healing. It's good that you're creating some pain in the marriage where the struggler is going, oh, this doesn't feel good, like that's a good thing. And if we can see it that way, that by not just taking away all the consequences from them, I may be able to encourage them towards pursuing their own health and recovery.

Right. I didn't realize that I was standing between my spouse and God.

Yeah. Wow.

By doing what I was doing.

Yeah, that's good. I'll let that sit for a second. It's good imagery. Okay, so let me frame this question this way. If someone who's experienced betrayal trauma, but maybe wouldn't even necessarily call themselves a betrayed spouse comes to you and says, hey, should I pursue my own healing even if my spouse is not going to get theirs, how would you answer their question?

All caps. Yes. Shouting yes, absolutely. And you know, if somebody would have asked me to pursue my own healing at the time, one thing I probably would have said is, why? Because I was functioning great. I was superwoman, remember? So why would we want to change that? So, but the importance of it, if somebody were to take the time and if I were to ask those, I always tell people, because I've worked in addictions for a long time, either drug and alcohol or what I'm doing now, that the three most important words are I need help. And if somebody would have helped me. And they did understand that I do need help. Somebody told me, and this was a therapist, but not somebody I was saying it was just a, a friend therapist. She kind of affirmed, wow, you're doing a lot. You're really doing a lot. But let me ask you a question. Who takes care of you? And I just broke. I said, I take care of me?

Yeah.

I mean, I was a Christian and I didn't even leave any room for God, there. But that was the point to where I realized that something needs to change. And, you know, fortunately, we have so many tools, so many avenues for help for betrayed spouses. You know, we try to make it as easy as possible to get help.

One of the things we talk about at a lot of our conferences and on The Sexual Integrity 101 video course is this principle of if. If we're experiencing pain and trauma, it doesn't just go away. We can't just bury it, move on, act like it's no big deal. Like, if we're stuck in a situation like you were describing, Eileen, where we're over functioning and just kind of burying a lot of stuff, like you said, it has a way of coming out. And that's the truth of that pain and trauma. Like, it's going to stay stuck in your marriage. It's going to stay stuck in your brain. It's going to be altering your ability to parent, your ability to function well, your ability to have the kind of life God designed you to get to live. And so to me, that question is like, is it ever a bad time to pursue that fuller free or life? I mean, no. Even if your spouse is stuck in some very addictive or minimizing ways of thinking, like, it's gonna be good for you. And if you can start dealing with that pain and trauma, you'll be able to find your voice, your confidence, your sense of worth that will really give your marriage the best shot of making it anyway. So don't think of it as like, well, I'm gonna pursue my healing and it's gonna be to the detriment of our marriage. It's like, that's the greatest shot your struggling spouse has is the healthier you get. It can lead to their healing. So don't see against the marriage.

Yeah, yeah. We have a great tool. It's an assessment for betrayed spouses. And this has been based on years of research that has shown how partner betrayal has symptoms that are very consistent with post traumatic stress disorder. So the tool that we use is called the I Pass. It's the inventory for partner attachment, stress and trauma. And so this assessment is actually a bunch of smaller assessments. So we are checking. And so somebody says, well, I'm not really sure how this is affecting me. We can look at PTSD symptoms. We can look at attachment. We'll look at. There's one called the das, which is embedded in that. It's depression anxiety stress scale. So we'll look at that. Do you meet clinical criter for Depression or anxiety, and it gives us an idea of what to focus on. How are they suffering? What does that suffering look like? And how can we best support you and treat you with this.

You know, something I was thinking about with this question, and I think, Nick, you sparked it, is I think the question in and of itself of should I pursue healing if my spouse doesn't? In some weird ways, in my mind, that elevates the marriage to be more important than the individual, where it's like, well, if the marriage isn't going to get healthier, why should I do this when I would encourage you that your own health is. Is more important than your marriage? Because your own health will inform and shape the health of your marriage. And that's why we want both spouses to do that. But, man, like, don't put. And again, I think that it's very easy growing up in the church, and I don't think this is directly taught. Absolutely. I do not believe this is directly taught, but I think in a lot of ways we are implied or absorbed. This idea that the marriage is more important than my own health or the right, the manifestation of that in our life is more important. And I just. I don't think so.

It's not biblical. It's not biblical.

Right. And only you can change. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jesus went to a solitary place and prayed. He got away all the time. Even though there were throngs of people around him he got away to refill, recharge. There's that saying, put your own oxygen mask on first when you're on an airplane.

Right. Yeah.

That's so that you don't die in the process of trying to help somebody out. And that's what I was. That's what I was experiencing in my betrayal, was I was slowly wasting.

Yeah.

For the sake of being superwoman. And I'm saving the marriage.

Right.

For what if I'm not around?

Yeah, exactly.

So, Eileen, help our listeners shape their expectations here in regards to how much healing is possible in our marriage or our relationship. If the betrayed spouse, I mean, if the struggling spouse doesn't pursue their own healing, if they never go for help, what can we expect in terms of the healing of the marriage and relationship?

Yeah. You know, I spoke a little bit to that holistic model of healing where if often, if you fix work on one area, it bleeds over to the other areas. You know, if you picture our life as a pie chart or we've got our spiritual life, we've got our relationships, you could throw lots of Things in there, academics, social, physical health, mental health. That when we. When we work on an area, it often bleeds into other areas. So it's absolutely. It's imperative. I'll use that strong word. But it is imperative for us to take care of ourselves and seek our own healing. We would be. We would think it was ridiculous if I broke my leg and I said, well, you know, God will just take care of it. And I just sat there with a broken leg. If our heart's broken, we need to treat it.

Yeah.

Our brain and our heart is no different than a broken limb.

But what if our spouse. What if they never go towards their own healing? Can our marriage get better still?

Yeah, I think it's not going to be God's optimal.

Sure.

But it will be better. And it could facilitate that process of getting out of God's way. And I'm getting healthy, I'm empowering myself and I'm empowering our children.

Right? Yeah. So there's like, there's a risk that you're taking and pursuing that. The risk of your spouse never pursuing that, their own healing. But in so many ways, if you don't first take that step and pursue your own, then it may never. I mean, then the answer will always be, of course, why would they pursue their own healing? So I think that we have to take that risk in order to really give our marriage and relationship a chance to be the healthiest version it could be.

Right. And first, Peter speaks to that. It talks about the spouse that is not obeying the Word, can be won over without a word from his wife when he sees her behavior. Yeah, but that becomes attractive. Jesus is attractive. So when people are getting healthier and closer to Jesus, that's attractive. People want more of that?

Yes, absolutely. Okay, Just another simple question. We talked about the encouraging of our spouse. Is there anything that we can do to convince our spouse, our struggling spouse in this situation that they need their own healing? We're getting our healing. We're pursuing our healing from betrayal, trauma. Is there anything we can do to. And I'm not even. It's not coerce, it's not manipulate, but it's convince or show proof that they should pursue their healing. Is there anything we can do to facilitate that?

I giggle a little bit because my husband and I, we have this funny habit or it's a ritual, actually, where we read Dear Abby and we see how she answers and how we would answer. You know, we're deep. So one of the things we see more often than anything is how Can I convince my spouse? How can I tell my spouse? How can I make my spouse? And the simple answer is, you can't. I can't change a heart. God can change a heart. I think that the convincing was what we alluded to earlier. I miss you. I miss feeling close to you. I miss feeling connected to you. You're making about I. Because if I turn my hand and I point at him, you're making me. Well, first of all, nobody can make me anything. You know, you're making me angry, you're making me bad. No, I feel sad when I see this happening. I'm turning it on me because then we have to be really careful that we're not parenting again. You know, you better do this or, you know, you're really messing up here. But the convincing comes in the behaviors and the heart change.

I think it might be helpful for some listeners to consider just the perspective we have as we go into our own healing. Because if we feel like this is my permanent situation, I'm going to be pursuing health. They never will. It's always going to be a struggle. That can be very defeating. When our experience through pure desire would be, yes, there are situations where they don't heal and it is, that's very, very difficult and hard. And if you're in that place, you know, we feel for you and we know you're probably having to make some hard decisions about do I stay or do I go. And that could be another podcast in and of itself. But in many, many situations, what you are experiencing is temporary because when you start to get healthy and in a loving, gracious way, find your voice and your self confidence and have others that help you navigate the situation and you're growing in friendships and people that you can trust with your whole story. I mean, that good just has a way, as we've been saying throughout the episode of impacting your spouse who starts to go, well, you know, I guess it wouldn't hurt for me to try a group or you know, to do something and they move in that direction. And again, I can't make that as a promise or guarantee, but could just say observationally and experientially from being involved with pure desire for over a decade, that is often what happens. That when one spouse and we saw, when I was a pastor at a church and we had groups, we'd have women come into our betrayal and beyond groups that were hurting and wounded and didn't know what to do and they started to find that camaraderie and friendship and growth and it would be a few months later, you know, I'd get that knock on my door or the phone call or email. It'd be the husband, like, so I guess you guys have groups here.

I think I've been struggling for a little bit.

It was like, oh, surprise, surprise. You know, it was often a matter of time. So, again, I wish I could promise that because that'd be so wonderful. I can't. But I can say that is often the case. And if you can keep that perspective of if I'll pursue my healing, this could be a temporary situation because it's going to impact them. And holding onto that hope really can be what helps you continue to move forward, believing that God will use your healing in your marriage.

Amen. Yeah. The empowerment piece is what you're speaking to, that we go from feeling like a victim to feeling like that we have choices and we can make good ones in the midst of our spouse's suffering.

Right. And so much of life is not finding ways to avoid or stay out of the ups and downs, the ebbs and flows of life. It's learning how to manage those things better. And so that's what pursuing your own healing does. It equips you, gives you tools, experiences, community around you to help you better do that.

Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about one of those. I don't know if is the ebb, the good or the bad, and is the flow. But let's talk about one of those ebbs and flows that when there is this situation where the betrayed spouse is finding healing, making progress, it will very often trigger some anger in the struggling spouse or the addict who will feel, you know, why are you doing this? Or what? You know, why did you change things? You know, as we said, things were fine before.

Right.

How would you encourage that betrayed or hurting spouse to navigate or deal with the anger they're experiencing? Like, what can they do and what should they not do when it comes to their spouse's anger?

Yeah, yeah. Riding the waves. I was thinking about what one spouse said about, you know, these waves that come with recovery. There's pain, there's. There's sometimes anger lash back from spouses, sometimes. And what she said was, I can't change the waves, but I can learn how to surf. And I really liked that. And it would be. What we know about anger, especially you mentioned anger, is that it's a secondary emotion. It's a protective emotion. Jenna Reamersmutt talks about it being a firefighter. So if we can look at anger in A different lens and interpret it as, my spouse is struggling and look at what's underneath the anger. John Gottman has this analogy of the anger iceberg. So, as you know, with an iceberg, you just see the top part, but there's this monstrosity of a thing under the water. So anger is at the top, but underneath there's pain, rejection, trauma, disappointment, fear, all kinds of emotions under that. So if you can. As the recovering spouse, if you can say, I really hear your anger, I'm wondering what else you're feeling besides anger. And they may say, I don't know what I'm feeling. And that's fine. You can even suggest some things. If I could. And this is where empathy comes in. If I were in your position, I'd feel a little fearful, like, there's a threat of loss. Try to get under it. You want to get under that anger. So that's what. For me.

Yeah.

And that enters this new paradigm of thinking. Because that first conversation, like, okay, let's say you start your healing and you're struggling, and the struggling spouse gets angry, and you're like, I hear that you're angry. And you ask the question, what is underneath that? And you get the, like, I don't know. That's a dumb question. Leave me alone. Of course I'm, you know, upset or whatever. Like, it may take a few conversations and a few interactions, but you've now entered into. You've almost, like, planted this seed of, like, anger's not the issue. And I think if you continue to go back to that in an empathetic. And I think what we're talking about here is an understanding of what the struggling spouse, their inner world is like, what their inner dialogue is like, the shame and the fear that they carry often, which, as a betrayed spouse, is not an easy space or really a space you want to enter naturally. Like, of course I want to be empathetic to my spouse who's ruining our marriage. No, that's not a normal thing. But as you learn these tools, as you learn to manage your own health and do things intentionally, you can then start to reach out to your struggling spouse in these ways. And I think that that is if I felt from. And this is not my story of crisis entering my marriage because of my addiction. But if I just thinking back to where I was in that space before I even got married, if I was married at that time and my spouse was. Was empathetic and was trying to work to understand the inner workings of my world, I probably would respond in anger. But there is also something where I'm feeling pursued and I'm feeling like they're reaching out to me. And so I think in a lot of ways, that can help. I feel like that can be a balm on the shame and the fear that we have. And so there is a lot of power, I think, that we carry as a betrayed spouse. If we can get into this mindset where you're asking questions and starting to see the behavior of our struggling spouse as more than just anger or the behavior, there's so much more. As you said, this monstrosity under the water.

Right. This is where I think pure desire does such a good job, is helping betrayed spouses understand the nature of addiction, what it looks like, and that it's not the problem. It's a symptom of a bigger problem, you know, at the underlying it all is almost always trauma. So when we can help spouses understand that you have a suffering spouse, not a spouse that doesn't care about your needs, because on many levels, they do. They're trying to function in the world the best they know how. And so when. That's why I think that we do such a good job with this, because we help them to understand. And then when we understand more about addiction, we can have that empathy, we can have that compassion.

Yeah. I think what we're talking about is reframing the anger. And I think for a lot of betrayed spouses, it's very important that they don't take personal fault or blame for their spouse's anger, because I think that can happen. Oh, I went to group and it made him angry, or I was doing my work and that triggered him, that's not your fault. Now, I mean, we want to take ownership. If I said something rude or if I snuck off to group and didn't even tell them I was joining you, some of that we may need to own. That doesn't mean we're perfect. But if what we realize is triggering the anger is steps we're taking towards health, that's not your fault. Don't put that blame on you. Of I made them angry. No, something I did triggered them. But it's not about me and asking that question, like, why is my move towards health triggering anger in you? Because I would think you'd be happy to see me growing, just like I'd be happy to see you growing. So to reframe, like, this isn't my fault. And if we can get to what else is going on, that may be some really valuable conversations.

So let's press into that. Eileen, if we are a betrayed spouse and we're pursuing our healing, how much of that process do we share with our struggling spouse? If they're not in their own process of healing, how much of our experience, group learning, all of that, how much do we share with our struggling spouse?

I think we have to be considerate. So, you know, we are in a marriage relationship where we're trying to be kind and compassionate to one another. So I think you ask that question. There are so many times when Bill and I are working with a couple and the husband or wife will say, well, I don't know how she would feel if I did this. And so we turn and go, well, let's ask them. So if you're not sure, you clarify, you ask clarifying questions. I'm in this group, I just started this recovery program. I'm wondering how much you want to know about that and, you know, create some guidelines around that. So. And you want to frame it with, so here's what's not to do. I'm learning a lot about all the crappy things you do and why, and why you want to say, I'd like to share with you what I'm learning about me. In other words, you don't make it about them because that can be manipulation too, if we're not careful.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think an area of breakthrough here can be when your self discovery and learning process makes you aware of ways that you maybe haven't responded well as a spouse or treated them well. And if you're able to go to them and connect your group or your healing experience to what you're about to say, like say hi. I realized from some of the group work I'm doing that I tend to be, I can really be kind of badgering of you when I feel like you're not getting a job done. And that must make you feel like I'm parenting you. And I'm sorry for doing that.

Yeah.

You know, the spouse is going to, you know, they're gonna be like, wow, that was, that was new.

Okay, thank you.

Or you say, you know, as I talked in group last night, I realized that so often when you come home from work, I just have a thousand questions from you and I don't even let you, like, get in the door. And I'm sorry because that's, that's probably not a good environment for our relationship. And again, that spouse like, oh, this healing thing sounds pretty good because it's impacting us in a good way. And, and I say that because I saw the reverse in my group experience of as I was coming out of the fog of my addiction to go to my wife and say, I realize in our marriage that I've always treated my schedule and my stuff as more important than yours. And I'm sorry that I've made you feel that way. Yeah, I think for my wife, that was like, wow, he's learning. He's seeing something that I've seen all along. And it's like, thank goodness, man. And she started to really like group because of that reason that I wouldn't come home and say, well, here's all the things you need to do to be a better wife. It was like, sure, no, I'm seeing things I've done that really weren't good. Would you forgive me? And so I think even as the betrayed spouse, and you don't want to just do it for show, but as you're learning things that you could do to be a better spouse, like, apologize for it. Because I think that may be eye opening that now they're going to feel pretty good about your, like, well, I like it when she goes to group because, man, she comes home just really sensitive and able to talk, and maybe I should do this.

And I think we hear that so often from betrayed spouses that enter group or enter counseling that I did this because my spouse, he or she did this and I needed healing. So I went in and then they come out with. But I learned about myself and I learned about the things that I do, and I learned about how to get me healthy. And I think that, like, what you're talking about, Nick, is not. We're not telling a betrayed spouse to. To not be angry or have negative emotions because of the behavior.

That's right.

We are saying, as you enter into this space and get healing, you're going to learn about yourself. And as we own those things, that's part of. Honestly, that's part of sharing our health is when we learn stuff about ourselves and we share, you know, like you were saying, I do this and I realize why and I'm really sorry. That is like this olive branch that is like almost. It is. It's the fruit of our healing that we're passing on to our spouse in that point. So understand that that's not usually why someone enters into a betrayal. And beyond group or counseling for betrayal trauma so that I can be a better spouse, it's so that I can get healthy and learn what's going on over here with my spouse who won't stop this thing. But it is this byproduct that comes out of that process.

Right, right. What's my own shame level?

Yeah.

You know, how am I dealing with my own shame? Inevitably, with sexual betrayal, there's some. I caused this. I'm a party to this somehow. So when we get healthy, when we can. When we. With the Lord's help, when we can get healing from our own shame, our own traumas, from families of origin, we are able to. It has that radiance, you know, that it radiates out to other people. It's what we're called to. Right. Second Corinthians talks about that. We're all committed to the ministry of reconciliation, paying it forward. God comforts us in our affliction so that we can comfort others with the comfort we receive.

Yes. That's good. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Eileen, this is a challenging topic. It's not easy. As we've talked about, there's good that can come of this situation. There's things God wants to do in our life. But let's wrap up this episode with this final question of really kind of looking towards the future and towards the good, the positives that we hope for in a marriage. So paint the picture for us of how you would describe a marriage where both spouses are pursuing their healing. What will this marriage look like? As opposed to the fear we have of maybe being stuck as the only spouse who's working on it? What's that future hope of a marriage where both spouses are moving towards healing?

Yeah. You know, I wish I could say that it is a picture of unicorns and rainbows and hopping from cloud to cloud. It's not what I'd like to say. It is suffering and it's work, but if you're going to suffer, you might as well suffer for doing the right thing than staying in trauma. What it's like is walking through the valley of the shadow of. To get of death together.

Yeah.

That's what it's like.

Yeah.

It's. It's like having a partner. It's. It's Christ in the church. It's. It's working out your own salvation with fear and trembling and then having somebody to do it with.

Yeah.

So it's. It's. It's reuniting. It's. It's all of those things.

Yeah.

Yes, there's pain. Yes, there's weeping, but joy comes in the morning. Little bitty unicorn.

Yeah. I think of same team, same goal, same language. You're on the same team with your spouse. You're headed toward the same thing together, and you're having conversations that are meaningful and using the same language. There's understanding as you're walking this way together. And I think something. And it's probably just because the season I'm in with two young boys, that your kids, their lives will be different if they witness this. Your kids, your grandkids, the legacy you're creating in your family. And we are working toward that unicorn and rainbows type of life or legacy, if we can. But it is setting up your family with the tools and the. The lanes in order to pursue that.

Right. Amen.

I go back to an illustration you used Eileen. That to me, it's kind of that iceberg illustration. It's having a below the surface marriage where we're able to, as a couple together, address what are the deeper things that are driving us. What are things from our family of origin that we've brought into the marriage, what are our triggers, what causes us emotional pain or turmoil. And as we enter into that space together, being able to be one another's champions. Support listener. Knowing that I'm not perfect and I'm working on my stuff, just like you're not perfect and you're working on yours. And so there's that sense of we're together in this, but we're not just stuck trying to have this happy, beautiful, above the waterline, iceberg marriage. We're really dealing with the deep stuff. And it's just like you said, it can be messy and hard, but it's very beautiful and rewarding in the long run.

Yep. Amen. Right. And you're doing it with Jesus. You know, we've a threefold cord isn't easily broken.

Yep.

So when you're pursuing healing and you're pursuing God's best, you will draw. If you picture that kind of triangle, if you draw closer to the Lord, you're drawing closer to each other.

Yeah. So good. Well, the reality is the situation is super difficult. It is not one that we enter into happily or even willingly. But we ask that if you are in the season of betrayal trauma, just to consider the benefits of processing that trauma, equipping yourself with tools and really taking steps toward living the healthiest life that you can. Our own pursuit of healing is not initially for others, though it may impact them, it truly is for ourselves. So we hate to see men and women in this situation, but strongly believe that your healing is worth the effort and the time. If you can put it in. If you are willing to put it in, it will be worth it. So, Eileen, first time, rookie time, you crushed it. Such a great job. Thank you so much, Eileen.

Good job.

Thank you for being with us.

It was fun.

Thanks.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness. And lastly, never stop being healthy.