208 - Fight For Love w/ Rosie Makinney

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 208 of the Pure Desire Podcast here. Joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Houston, we have a problem.

It's not even from like a movie. I mean, it is from a movie.

It's in a lot of.

It's like a joke, right? Yes, but that is, I mean, I just, I feel like it's like a test now. Like, we've gotten to this point, we've been doing this so many times where it's like a test for me to figure out what it is. And it's just basically when something goes wrong in space. NASA, Houston.

Yeah, some of them are self evident. I wonder when the first time it was ever said. But I think we all just associate it with NASA and the moon missions. And I'm sure some listener knows it was in 1978, the first time, you know, this one happened.

Send it in. That'd be great. Well, today we got to. This is my first time meeting her. And you spent some time with her not too long ago. But we Talked with Rosie McKinney and we talked about her ministry and helping women with betrayal, trauma. And her ministry is called Fight for love.

Yeah. Mr. Rodney Wright and I were down at an event in San Antonio, Texas, the Sexual Integrity Leadership Summit, an annual event that we're a part of. And ran across Rose. She came by our table and just started sharing with me her passion and ministry. And I quickly realized, like, this was a voice we needed because she is speaking into that area of betrayed spouses, particularly women who are stuck in a place between discovery of issues in the marriage, particularly pornography, and the recovery side of actually doing something about it. And in that kind of neutral zone, a lot of women are getting really bad messages from society and culture and unfortunately, even sometimes in churches about how to fix the problems in their marriage that as we've seen more often than not cause more problems. And so I love that Rosie McKinney and her ministry Fight for Love. They're not looking to be the solution, if you will. They're looking to be the bridge to help women get from that place into recovery groups, counseling, intensive treatment if they need it, like whatever it is, they want to be that link. And I just, I think that's so vital because there's so little of that happening and there are so many women just stuck in that in between place and they don't know what to do. So I think Rosie, she's a lot of fun to talk with. I think people are really going to enjoy this episode.

Yeah, it definitely is super good. A lot of good perspective. And I think it's not gonna be a new message per se, but has some new perspectives and fresh insight on betrayal trauma. Okay, so we've got a great episode for you. Few things. Subscribe to the podcast. If you don't, we're on all the major platforms and listen, Audible subscribers do it. Just look it up. It's there, it's free. You can do that. Follow us on social media earedesirepdmi. And then also we have these full episodes up on YouTube. And then lastly. And we're getting close. We're getting really, really close to the first ever in person Pure Desire summit.

Yes, we are. Yeah. Coming up. And, you know, hopefully people are starting to think about that they could travel here and not only see, you know, you and I and our smiling faces in person, so good, they could grab some McMinimans spicy tater tots. They could take a trip up to Multnomah Falls. So coming to the summit could really be the full meal deal that you.

Not only see what you did there.

All this encouragement and strength to your own journey, you get to have this fantastic experience with us. And we're working hard to put it together and hope that whether someone joins online because that is an option, or comes and joins us in person, that this will just become that annual highlight. To say this reminds me of why I'm in group or why I'm leading group or why we're on this journey because we all get into places where we feel a little discouraged or like we're spinning our wheels or we're lacking focus. And this is just one of those great refocusing points and a lot of fun. And we're looking forward to it. Yeah.

And if you want to buy us Cajun tots from McMenamins, we'd be happy.

To go with you there.

Yes, absolutely. I will say this. We are going to be exploring the inner world. We are going below the surface at this summit. And so if you would like to register, go to PureDesire.org summit. We have in person and virtual tickets, PureDesire.org summit. All right, here is our time with Rosie McKinney talking about her ministry, Fight for Love and how they help spouses who've experienced betrayal trauma. All right, Rosie. And then tell me, McKinney, is that how we say the last name McKinney.

That is how you say it.

Okay. Rosie McKinney, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast for the first time.

It is my pleasure to be here. It's quite an honour to be invited, so thank you very much, guys.

Absolutely. This is the first time we're meeting. Nick was telling me a little bit about. Was it sils? You guys were at SILS and had some conversations.

Sexual Integrity Leadership Summit.

Yeah.

Most people have no idea. We don't say.

You're right, you're right. But Nick was telling me about your ministry and the story and just felt like it'd be a great opportunity to have you on to talk about your ministry, Fight for Love, which helps women. And I was looking through the website and all the material. You help women who have had porn invade their marriage. And I love that language. That idea of it's not something that's welcomed, it's something that barges in and for, I mean, that we don't know and we're not aware of. So this is very much in the realm of what we do. And so we're really excited to. Yeah. Talk through it. So first, Rosie, why don't you just tell us a little bit about your ministry, Fight for Love. It was born out of your story, but could you take just a few minutes, share that with our listeners, your story and then how this ministry was birthed?

Absolutely. So my story is similar in many ways to a lot of wives story in that I have the same arc, I have the same experience. However, the timing is very different in that I actually did my experience over two relationships. So before becoming a Christian, I was in a long term relationship with an unrepentant porn addict. And I tried everything I could think of to get this out of the relationship, but nothing worked. And it was the loneliest, most painful, horrible, traumatizing, shameful experience. And that all fell apart. And now I become a Christian and I meet my beautiful shiny husband who has been a pastor and has been open about his previous struggles with pornography. But he admits them, he doesn't want them. He says he's got it sorted. And I'm like, yes, I've got one of the good guys. This is not going to be a problem. Very soon into the honeymoon, I realized that this is still a problem because it doesn't just manifest, you know, inside the bedroom, it manifests outside in other behavioral issues. And I could see all those warning signs and I think I had sort of a PTSD trauma reaction. Like I've been here before. I Know how this goes. I cannot be do this again. I literally cannot. Even though I'd left my country and my job and my family and made my vows in front of everybody, I knew it was like, no, I can't do this again. So I put my foot down really early and said, you need to get help or we can't move forward. And fortunately, he was done. He was ready to get into help. So we were thrown from the honeymoon into recovery, which was pretty traumatic. But ever since then, it's been although a bumpy road, so at the beginning it's had an upward trajectory. So he then retrained later on and became a certified sexual addiction therapist. I ran groups. We wanted to go out and share with people the hope and the freedom and the transformation that we'd experienced. But what we were finding is that he would go and talk to guys, and he's a great speaker, he's really charismatic, but he'd only have a certain amount of success. So we thought we'd try talking to parents around the side and, you know, we'll talk to them about their kids, but really we're talking about their marriages. Again, limited success. And I said, why don't I just talk to the wives? I went and talked to the wives, and the response was phenomenal. And I was like, oh, we've hit on something here. Women are desperate for guidance. You know, they're trying all these strategies to get rid of porn, to help to fight for the marriage, but it's just not working. So as soon as you set them on the right path and say, hey, these are the things that work. All those other things that you've been trying don't work. They go, right. And that's when things start happening. And this is where Fight for Love came from. Because it's not just about what we're fighting against. It's what we're fighting, which is, you know, this new marriage minus the pornography, not just the old marriage without it. Who wants that anyway? It was pretty dysfunctional anyway. We want something new and amazing. So that's where it came from. And now, now we've got a team of 12, and they're all over the country, and we're just going forward, and we want to create this movement so we can go and shorten the time that people have to spend in that lonely, confused, traumatic time in between discovery and recovery.

So good.

Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate your story, Rosie, and just your openness with it. And that was one of the things that struck me right away in our initial conversations. At that conference and kind of getting to understand a little bit more of what you're working towards was just your heart for these spouses. And these women in particular that are stuck in that really tough place are often hearing really confusing messages, even from their churches about what they should be doing. And honestly, messages that aren't helping. And we'll get into some more of those in just a little bit here. But you already used this phrase and you used it with me when we were getting to know each other down in San Antonio. And I just, I thought it's a. It's a paradigm that for a lot of people, I think will be eye opening to really consider what are we talking about? And so it's what you just said, that many spouses and women in particular, that they're stuck in between discovery and recovery. So what does that mean? And what can someone do if they realize I'm stuck in this in between place?

Yeah, it's the most loneliest space because you literally believe you are the only one and you don't know that recovery exists. So there's just this void. You have discovered that pornography really is happening. It's not just in your imagination. It is a problem in your relationship, but you don't know what to do. The world is giving you one message with these confusing messages and you're trying those and they don't work. The church is giving you another message and you're trying those and those don't work. And you're like, I just feel so hopeless, so helpless. We just keep going around in this cycle. He's promising to stop and he doesn't stop. And it doesn't seem to matter what I say or what I do. And it's a desperate, desperate place. And what, what I find happens is there's two ways that people get into recovery. One is they just get pushed to a place of sort of desperation where they do this, you know, this horrible ultimatum, which nobody wants to do, but they feel like they've got no alternative, no other choice, or, you know, it's a God intervention. And accidentally they stumble into recovery because they bump into somebody and it's, you know, a divine connection. And somebody goes, hey, there's a group about this. Here's a resource.

Yeah, we hear many of, but it.

Seems more accidental than intentional. And so we really want to prevent people from getting to that point of crisis. We're all about early intervention, not crisis management. You know, you don't have to be on your knees or on the verge of a divorce to get into recovery, and you don't have to stumble into it by accident. It's like, let's give you the information now. Let's just put it out there. And I do think that. Well, I. You know, we've now trialled it. The ministry's been going 18 months or so, and women are flooding in and taking action. Yeah.

And it's funny because I. Funny is not the right word, but it's interesting and ironic to me that if more people. Because the church culture I grew up in, there's a lot of silence around this in general from both spouses, from a struggling spouse, and from one who is suspicious that the porn or sexual brokenness is somehow a part of the marriage. And even when things blow up, there's still this kind of, like, cloaking it, and let's still hide it. Let's try to, like, manage the, like, I don't know, rollout of this. And some. And a lot of it is image management, and a lot of it is, gosh, I feel like in some ways we do it to protect the church. Quote, like, we don't want other people to know what's going on here kind of thing. And what that does is that sets up what you're talking about, women in particular, that sets them up to feel just what you were saying. I'm completely alone. I'm the only one who's stuck in this in between. And I just. I wish more and more. And I'm so glad to hear what your ministry is doing because you're giving voice to something that is an experience across the board for so many people. But the cultures that we're in don't exactly know how to handle that balance between honesty and transparency and protecting the church, protecting reputations, marriages, all of that. And it's a. I mean, it's messy. It's not a clean process. But, yeah, it's just there is this lack of voice to it. I'm. I just. It pumps me up to hear what you guys are doing.

Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? You can sit in church and immediately we go to these worship songs that are so happy. And it's, like, completely missing the point that so many people sitting there are not in a happy place. They're in a lamenting, they're in a mourning place. And, you know, every time I hear we're trying to help those poor people out there who are struggling in sin, and I'm like, no, we're sitting right here. You know, talk to the people. And, you know, we don't you know, when we become Christians, everything doesn't evaporate, and it's like, I'm fixed. I no longer struggle. It's like, let's just get real. You know, we're far more of an impressive witness to say, yep, we have a porn problem, but we also have a mighty savior who can fix it. Yeah, come and find out about it, rather than trying to pretend that we've got it all together because we. Because we haven't.

Yeah. Yeah. Amen. And so for those spouses or for women, discovery being that moment that they're aware there is pornography in the marriage, there's maybe other unwanted sexual behaviors, and then recovery being that they are in some kind of proactive recovery program with others dealing with the problem. And what I heard you mention when we talked was how for some women, they might be in this place, not just weeks or months, but they may be in that place for years. Is that right?

Yeah. Yeah. I had. I remember one group, I had women in their 20s and women in their 70s had been doing this for 50 years. And it's like, you don't need to do this for 50 years. You know, let's get them in recovery now because, you know, just like you guys are doing, there are so many amazing ministries out there that we just need to tell people about. It's like, the help is there, the hospitals are open.

Totally.

Let's just get the people there.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so. And I kind of already dipped into it. I'm sorry, a little bit with this next question. But we can hear some of these wrong or negative messages when we're in that in between space. So from your perspective, from your experience with women in particular, what are those messages and then where do they come from? Where do we hear those messages from?

Great question. I think the biggest one is wrapped up in this sense that somehow we are to blame. We are responsible. We have caused this. It's some sort of lacking in our sexual intimacy that is causing him to look somewhere else. So not only is that really, you know, shameful and blaming, but it also gives us the false hope that somehow we can fix this. If we just try hard enough, you know, we can fix this, and it's just not true. So women are, you know, women who believe that the way to stop your guy from acting out is to have more sex, are having obligational sex. And this is extremely traumatic and harmful to her and to them. It's not giving him what he wants, what he really wants, what he really needs. And so it Just bypasses the understanding that what this is all about, you know, this is not about a lack of sex or a lack of good sex. This is, you know, as you say many, many times on your podcast, when you get into sort of the brain chemistry, this is a process addiction. This is not because you are lacking, you can never compete. But your question of where do they come from? Where does this message come from? That. That's a really good question. I think what one place it comes from is this just disregard of. Of the woman's sexual experience. Like it doesn't really matter, to be honest, if she's doing this out of obligation, which is. And that it's harmful. That doesn't really matter, which kind of is not that dissimilar to pornographic ideology that it really doesn't matter if the woman doesn't want it. It's not about her enjoyment. It's all about male entitlement. And this was. This is not God's design for sex. This is not healthy sexuality. A mutual, consensual, informed experience. And I think. I think it really. This message that somehow, you know, guys have this need that we have to fulfill or they're going to explode really devalues guys, and it sort of says that they're incapable of understanding God's design for sex, that this is a mirror of the covenant love, and that they can't quite grasp it. And I feel that that's really offensive to guys as well as women. It's like we're undervaluing everybody's ability to actually grasp what sex is all about. Because we can't do the hard job of breaking through that shame and going, hey, we've got a problem. We're broken in this respect. So I think it all goes back to your original question is like, why can't we come forward and talk about those issues? And it's all mashed up in this lack of teaching that there are no sins that separate us from the love of God. And there is no one sin that is more sinful than anything else that we can't talk about. So I think we've just got to preach hard on that and teach hard what pornography addiction is all about. How women are affected. Like betrayal, trauma is real from the neurobiological, relational stance. Their brains are literally being scrambled by this persistent betrayal and trauma. So not only are they affected, but they're highly, highly effective as a catalyst of change. And just like we've already spoken about this, Nick, how in many, many cases is the wife actually standing up and going enough actually prompts him to go, okay, I'll do it. I'll get into recovery. I've been stalling. For whatever reason, I've been stalling. Okay, now she's really serious. I need to get to do this. So we are. I think we're emasculating men. We're invalidating women. And I think everybody just needs, you know, a good shaking and a paradigm shift and go, let's just tackle this head on, get it out in the open, and everybody step up to the plate.

Yeah, that's. That's such a great reminder that really, in some of these messages, we are devaluing men by treating them like these carnal beasts that have no control over their desires. And so we better all just do our best to help them meet this insatiable need. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, God gave us a spirit of self discipline and of courage and of strength, and particularly if we're in Christ. There should be a belief that men don't need a woman to fix the sexual problems, because that's such an abdication of responsibility. And being a man and really being an adult in so many ways is about holding on to responsibility for our choices and actions and not putting that on other people. So I think that's a great observation. And what I wanted to bring up is, on the flip side, I think many times women do get the negative message of, well, it's your job to fix this. And we hear the really sad stories of the couples that will go to their pastor, and he acknowledges he's looking at pornography. And the pastor looks to the wife and says, well, how much sex are you giving him? It's just like, wow, what. I mean, let's just perpetuate the problem.

More trauma.

But on the flip side, I think we also. Women get the message of, well, this isn't about you. And I say that out of my own story. Because as I was trying to wrestle through my own struggles and why I couldn't stop and why my wife was so angry, the message I would use with her a lot was like, well, this is just like, it's a guy's problem. And all guys struggle. And I'm working on it. And it's not about you, because I had these problems way before we met, and I'm still working on it. It's getting so. I don't know why you're so mad. Cause it's not about you. So on the one hand, women get the message of, well, it's all about you to fix it. But on the other hand, they can hear it's really not about you. So you. And really what that was doing, what I was doing, and what I hear in the messages from other men, churches, wherever this might come from, it's saying, you shouldn't be so emotional or you shouldn't be so angry. It's really devaluing the trauma that they're feeling and the betrayal. And I was really blind to that until we got into our recovery process. But I just wanted to bring that up that I think women may be getting kind of a double alleged sort of. On the one hand, it's your job to fix it, but on the other hand, you shouldn't really be that mad about it anyway, because it's not really your issue.

It's so confusing. That's such a confusing message to get. And as you guys are talking, one thing that came to mind for me is that we do get these messages, I mean, both men and women, but in our conversation, for this context, women get this message from their family of origin as well, that if their family grew up in the church and heard these messages and operated in these. I mean, I have heard stories, and I know people who have been married for 50 or 60 years, and they just kept a lid on it. Like, the wife just slogged through her marriage knowing that it was difficult and that there was this struggle. It's like, well, you just do this. You just have sex more and you just serve your husband and you just dress up nice for when he comes home, and you make sure you always have makeup on. These messages that in some ways have just become, at least from my experience, the Western culture a little bit, have, I think, infiltrated just the. Like, this is basic truth. And so I think that we. The language that. And I can't remember, it's from psap. We spent some time in the module one of psap. But the idea that you're handed a script from your family, and for so many women, this is the script that they're handed. This is their baseline understanding of sexuality and the way it should play out in their marriage. And so, like, as a parent of young boys, this is something we're trying to do is we're trying to hand them a script that there is actual understanding of what health looks like. It's not just these cultural or even familial messages that we got handed down. Like, hold on a second, let's evaluate these a little bit more and figure out what's right and what's not.

Yeah, you're so right. And just think what that does to a woman's heart. So your husband has this insatiable need that you're the only one who can satisfy, but it's not really him because you know that his head is somewhere else. But. But yet you've got to keep doing this and it's making no difference. And you know Sheila Gregory, who I think you interviewed recently in her study, you know, mind blowing statistics that came out of that study. But she found out that if women believe that, you know, lust is a universal struggle for all guys, if women are really steeped in that, 79%. So 8 out of 10 women only have sex because they feel they ought to. So their own desires, their own sexuality, who cares? And you know, this is why we've got 50% of women who can literally take it or leave it. You know, it's absolutely devastating. And I talk to so many wives who are just like, if I never have sex again, I really don't care because it's never been about them. It's never been about their beloved, the one who's supposed to cherish them, seeking their heart. It's just about using their body while thinking about other people. It's absolutely devastating. And that's why we need so drastically to get this out in the open, because it's not permanent, it is reversible. You can restore and rebuild and have an incredible intimate union in all aspects of your relationship, but you're gonna have to fight for it because you're wading through this cultural mess, this sort of maybe family of origin mess, this church mess, and seek the truth because, you know, the enemy is stealing, killing and destroying. And this area seems to be a particular favorite playground of his.

Yeah, yeah. So we're going to turn the corner towards really the, you know, positive oriented, like, what can we do? But before we do that, just dive into one more thing here because we've been talking about it, but I'm curious to ask kind of another angle of it because I know we have a lot of leaders that listen to this podcast and pastors and so why do you think that message to women in particular persists that says, well, you could help fix your spouse if you were just more sexy, attractive, fit, whatever available. Why do you think that persists? Because I think if we were all to step back, the idea that I can help someone else fix their problems would be almost universally rejected. Like, well, that doesn't work. It's not my job to fix your problems. But in this area it seems to persist. Like that's the advice we give. Why do you think that is? Why do you think we haven't exposed that for the flawed advice that it is?

Great question, great question. The thing that always puzzles me when thinking about this very question is pornography is an idol. We are worshipping a demonic idol. So there is an idol in your household. So why on earth would you encourage wives to join them to compete with the idol? Why not do everything they can to tear it down? It makes no sense. It's almost like we. Pornography has become so normalized and ubiquitous that we don't even see it for the idol that it is. And if your husband was worshipping a demonic idol in any other more obvious way, if they were doing Ouija boards or something, there'd be no way that the advice that's given to wives about pornography would be given. And I think we've just become so inured to it, it's so normalized, that we don't even really recognize what it is. And, you know, for people who've not seen pornography, this is really, really dark stuff. This is not airbrushed, you know, static images from the 1970s. It's really gnarly stuff.

Getting darker all the time.

It's getting darker all the time. And it will continue to get darker because of, you know, it's market driven and our brains are getting tolerant to it.

I just have like a little premonition coming, I think. I don't know if that's the right word, but stick with me. I have had this kind of thought that's been lingering a little bit, and to your point you made earlier, that we just assume, and we've talked about it a little bit already, we assume that men are just like sex, good food, good sleep, good. Like, it's just basic, simple, almost like a caveman. There was a pastor, I watched a video recently that said that across the board, in any industry, basically, like, just maintaining the status quo and mediocrity across the board in any context, in any arena is not. People just don't put up with it. But when it comes to men in the church, there is a level of mediocrity is, okay, just make sure you're not doing these things. But if you just maintain and go just even keel, don't do anything crazy. Just stay the course. And it's interesting to me because I think that that's what comes out in this question a little bit too, is to what you were saying, that's this perspective of men that's so low that of course, it's the wife's responsibility to fix it or to somehow play the gap filler. There's. Because the man, of course, can't do it on his own. And I. I don't know. I could preach on this for a while. Cause like, happy wife, happy life, I feel like, is part of that perspective. Not that I wouldn't serve my wife or love her, but there's this. This, like, we are secondary, and we're just like the hunter gatherers who don't have any intellect.

And so, yeah, yeah, I think. I think men have been done a big disservice by women being excluded from the conversation. Because from my experience, most guys get hooked into this when they're little, when they're, you know, barely. Barely out of being a kid. This is not something that they chose. And they've been hooked into this, sucked into this. And now it's like, now pull yourself out of it. Just step up to the plate and be brave. And it's like, you know, as we've already discussed, this is really dark stuff that is literally enslaving you. It is rewiring your brains. And you need your partner, you know, your person to be fighting with you and putting those boundaries in place when your brain's not working by standing alongside you and going, I love you so much. I'm not going to tolerate this anymore. Until your brain comes back online, I'm going to do the thinking. And the thinking says, we're going to get help. That's what we're going to do. And we need to bring people together, Stop men and women fighting and saying things like, what a wife doesn't know doesn't hurt her. It's like, really? That's not helping anybody. You think it's helping the guy? Like, happy wife, happy life. She doesn't know a. She does know. Even if she doesn't actually literally know, she knows something's wrong. On a gut level, she knows something's wrong. She senses it. She's being traumatized. You know, there's deception going on, this betrayal going on. So it is affecting her, even if she doesn't know it. But by saying, don't tell your wife, it's like, don't tell the one person who could possibly save you. Like, no, get her on board. She's the person who is going to fight for you more than anybody else. She has more invested in you kicking this and anything else. And get to women early enough before there's too much damage and trauma and educate them and say, look, their brains have been hijacked. He's not trying to hurt you. This is just his coping mechanism. He needs you to fight with him and then show them how to fight in the right way.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I totally agree.

So how do we. I mean, we're turning that corner now. How do we help, like, society, churches, communities? How do we change these unhelpful, these hurtful, negative messages? And then what does it look like to support and care for spouses dealing with their, specifically, in this context, a husband's pornography addiction?

So, again, I think instead of talking about, you know, men's rights to sex, we have to talk about each right, if each spouse's right to consent. And, you know, sex is a. Is a gift, it's not an entitlement. And just reframe that. And the church is doing a lousy job at the moment about teaching what healthy sexuality is and what real intimacy is between men and women. Because the foundation of any truly intimate relationship is honesty. And that is the one thing that is missing when an addiction is present, because by its very nature, it has to be hidden because, you know, you know that this is going to upset them, so you're trying to hide it. So honesty is so important, and that's what needs to be preached. And, you know, I do think people need to lead from the front and open up the conversation and include women. This isn't just for. If you struggle with this, come to the seminar. It's like, no, let's educate everybody. Let's cast the net wide. Let's do this on Sunday morning. Let's have people up giving their testimonies. Let's just have people standing up in T shirts who support. They don't have to speak so that we can see that this is actually affecting everybody. And I do believe that pastors would be more willing to stand up and say, this was my story if they felt more secure about the reaction from their congregation. But there's no guarantee that you're going to get a good reaction because people expect more from their pastors. So they're in this double bind of we want to be transparent, but people aren't going to, you know, they're going to judge me. So I think, you know, just like you guys do all the time about, you know, breaking the shame in the community, it's really important. But I think the added piece is let's get the women, you know, talk to the people whose brains are still working. You know, it's all very well talking to guys and going, who's struggling? I'm struggling. Now come forward. They're like, no, I'm going home to watch pornography. I can't help it. You know, let's talk to the women who go, yes, we're struggling. And then they actually, you know, do sign up because their brains are still working. And I, you know, maybe I'm simplistic or naive or just optimistic, but I do believe that women are the secret weapons, sitting silently there in the pews because they want to save their families. They want to break this generational curse for the next generation so passionately. And even if they don't have the courage to do the hard thing of setting those boundaries with their spouse, you start to talk to them about how this is impacting their children. And they're like, right, a mama bear comes out and it's like, okay, we're going to tackle this, and we are going to change our entire family unit. And then this is going to be our wider family and our friends and our community. And just from what I'm hearing from the women that I work with, our movement is growing daily. Women who you think would be sitting there going, well, I'm not telling anybody about my story. They're like, no, I'm going to tell you about my story because I don't want anybody else to suffer the way that I suffered for all those years.

That's such a powerful observation when you think even from kind of a brain science side, for someone who's dealing with sexual brokenness or sexual addiction, they are stuck in a level of denial, rationalization, minimization. And that's not because they're a bad person. That's just trying to ignore their problems. It's because that's how our brain has learned to function with this huge break in our morality where we're doing things we don't want to do. We know it would be hurtful, and we can't seem to stop. And so we're in. And we describe it in a lot of our materials as like that fog of addiction, that there's literal truth to that of not being able to think clearly or straight about what we need to do to extricate ourselves from the situation. And that's not an excuse in any sense, but it does speak to what you're going after here, Rosie, that those are the people probably least equipped to reach out for help because they're stuck in it, and they're saying, oh, I'm doing okay, when clearly they're not. But the spouse, on the other side who is living in maybe the fear or the pain or the trauma. Their brain is engaged in a way of, like, what can we do? It's scanning the horizon. Where is there help? Like, we're looking for the lifeboat that's going to come and rescue us. And if you will appeal to them with the brain that's looking for that, there could be a lot of success there. In fact, that's something we're seeing more and more at pure desire, that when people call for counseling appointments and to start that process, more often than not, it's the spouse, it's the wife who's feeling the betrayal, the pain, the trauma. And many times when it is the addict or the struggler calling, it's because he's got the wife in the background who's saying, you call them or else. And so then they're finally calling, as you brought up, Rosie, that it's when we're in our crisis, but just something for all of us to keep in mind. Like, the brain of the female who's being betrayed is engaged and looking for help. And so let's offer it and let's get them started. And if they are equipped with some tools, it's not meant to mean empowerment of like, okay, now go leave that schmuck behind because you're empowered. It's more like, no, here's the steps you can take to actually begin to potentially make a difference in your relationship that isn't just about more sex or how you dress. It's actually the right kind of steps. And so let's go into that, Rosie. The spouse that is starting to get help, they're moving into recovery. And maybe they. They're getting into a group, they're finding community, but they're acting out. Spouse is not. They're not pursuing help. What guidance do you offer? This is out of your story, too, where you tried that in a marriage that didn't work out. So what can the spouse do as she's finding recovery and help? What does she do in the relationship with the husband who's not yet there?

Yeah, it is a case of you've got to grab that oxygen mask and put it on your own face first. You can't even begin to help a partner who is unrepentant, unwilling to even acknowledge it's an issue until you put your own oxygen mask on. And it is a process of just clearing the fog, because if the addiction is continuing, there is continuing trauma, there is continuing deception and betrayal and possibly gaslighting and being manipulated and coerced or ignored. So you are. It's ongoing trauma. And so at that point, it becomes a survival instinct, really, and that the wife has got to try and get herself as. As healthy as possible. If she's, you know, if she's laid out the recovery, said, look, here's the help, here's the resources. People say it works, they're available. And he says, no, I'm not willing to do it. She's like, okay, but there's still a hole in the boat. I'm still sitting in the boat. I'm going to go and I'm going to go and fix, you know, I'm going to go and sort myself out and. And nothing changes if nothing changes. And by her doing that, by her clearing the fog and realizing what her reality is, is going to impact him one way or another. He might see her getting healthier and stronger and feel that he might lose her and that might prompt him to actually get up into recovery, or he might kick and scream, at which point she's now got enough stability to realize what her situation is and what her reality is. And then she's got some tough decisions to make. And, you know, no one can make that decision for her. It's got to be something that, you know, comes from her. But you can help her get healthy, get strong, and be able to see clearly what is going on and also how life could be different. Because once you start to glimpse a bit of health, you know, oh, I've laughed today. Oh, I felt happy today. Yeah, you know, you want more of that. So, yeah, it's a really, It's a. I've been there, you know, and sometimes, you know, it doesn't work out. And we have many women in our, in our team, in our group, that it didn't work out. But that's not to say that the women haven't had a happy ending because now they have discovered new life, new purpose, new joy, new. And some of the husbands have. They've hit rock bottom because their spouse has left and they've got into recovery and some of them haven't. So there is nothing to be lost by pursuing your own recovery as hard as you possibly can and everything to gain.

And we say this about recovery on the side for those that struggle with sexual brokenness, that once you have gained some traction and have health and understand what that looks like, to live that out. It's not like life or your context gets easier. Like you have tools now. You know, I think of a betrayed spouse who's in this situation you get a voice and you start to get health and some understanding of what's going on. You put language to your experience, that decision, and we'll get to that difficult decision that a lot of women find themselves having to make. But it doesn't mean that those decisions are made for you. It means that you've now developed a voice and have clarity on a direction where before, it feels like the betrayed spouse is caught up in the fog, too, like the fog of this addicted spouse. So it's not like it's going to become simpler or even easier, per se, but you will have clarity and I feel like, can have more conviction behind decisions that you make when, if you're in a fog, it's hard to know which direction do I go? Here.

Yeah. And women who have walked away can walk away with the assurance that they have literally tried everything. Because those women who have just tried competing or ignoring or prematurely forgiving, they haven't tried the thing that works, which is setting boundaries. You know, and that breaks my heart when I hear stories whose marriages have fallen apart and they never did that bit. They never knew that that was what they had to do. They had to stand up and draw that boundary and say, you know, we need to get into recovery. They just exhausted themselves and traumat themselves, and literally their hearts just broke, trying so hard to fix it. And it all fell apart. And it's like, oh, I wish that you had known what does work. So at least you've tried that.

Yep.

Rosie, talk a little bit more about the word you just used, boundaries. Because I think for a lot of spouses, that's odd to think about, because maybe the only boundary they've considered is either change or I'm out of here. And that could be a boundary, but I'm guessing you would say that's just a boundary. There's a lot of other ways we could create appropriate boundaries if our spouse isn't changing. So talk a little bit about that word, boundaries.

Well, I mean, boundaries are everything, aren't they? Boundaries are my superpower now that I never had before. But ideally, if you can start to do some boundary work in your relationship, as soon as you start to sniff that pornography is an issue in your relationship, those boundaries are going to be so. They're going to be so less painful to implement because it's going to be okay. We obviously have an issue with pornography. Okay, you're the one doing it. But we've still got the issue, and I want us to get help, and I'd like you to Be part of that. But if you're not willing to do that or you can't do that, I'm going to do that. So you're setting a very clear boundary. I am going in this direction. I would love you to be on board with me, but I am going in that. I am going in that direction towards health. That could be an example of a boundary. It doesn't have to be, you know, do this or I'm going to leave you. It's just making sure it's very clear that your dysfunction and your, you know, enslavement is not going to determine the trajectory of my mental health and future anymore.

Yeah.

Taking ownership of my own, like, as a betrayed spouse. Taking ownership of my own direction in that and not tethering that to someone's addiction. For sure. Okay, so I am really interested in this, in your response to this question, because we have, and you've talked about it already a little bit, that people get to the point of separation, divorce, question mark, what do I do? So when they're considering that, how do you help a person in that situation? This is such a hard question. The more I think about it. How do you help someone discern the idea of sticking it out, persevering, like doing the difficult work over a longer period of time to fight for the marriage? And then the other option of separation or divorce, how do you help someone who's caught in that? Man, it feels like just a.

Should I stay or should I go? Yeah.

To put simply.

Well, to be perfectly frank with you, we don't do that bit because we are the ambulance and you guys are the hospital. So you wouldn't ask the ambulance driver to do, you know, to determine whether or not to lop your leg off. You know, they are the ones just getting you to the hospital.

They're a great analogy. Yeah, super good.

So we are facilitating them into recovery. And you need someone who knows your circumstances. You know, you need someone to walk alongside you because there is such a spectrum of experiences here. From wives, we've got, you know, guys who. Women who are married to absolute sweethearts who are incredibly repentant and, you know, want really, really, really want to kick this. And, you know, it's just they're always in tears. And, you know, both of them are in tears. And it's a very, very sweet but painful situation. And then you've got, you know, on the other end, we've got wives whose husbands are drugging and raping them repeatedly. So there is a massive spectrum. So what you need is to find people to really help you work out what your reality is. But saying that as the ambulance drivers, we do take them to different clinics. So if I've got people on different ends of the spectrum, I'm going to point them towards different ministries.

Sure.

So if I've got someone in a very abusive relationship and the guy seems pretty unrepentant and you know, she is really, really suffering and I'm worried about her safety, I'm going to point her towards an organization that has expertise in domestic violence, emotional abuse, all that stuff. And that's part of our job as well, to sort of just help put them in the right clinic and then those people are the ones actually going to help them make those decisions, whether they're going to stay or go. But I'm but that in almost every situation there's always an option C. You know, it might not be like I have to divorce or I'm going to stay with them forever. It's like, well, maybe you just need a holiday for a couple of weeks. If you look carefully, there's normally an option C so you don't have to make a decision that you're not ready to make. And so that two week holiday might just give you a bit more clarity, bit more experience of life without the craziness to help you make an informed decision.

Yeah, such great wisdom there, Rosie, that these are major life decisions. And we, we have very unique stories, unique situations, and we need people alongside of us that know the ins and outs of our stories that are really advising what's best because situation to situation, it may differ based on our particular marriage and background and everything going on. And, and we, we, we do want to recognize the value of what, you know, what we'd call like a therapeutic separation. That is an intentional space in order for progress to be made and to see if the marriage can work. And so for people to hear, like, there's almost always an option 3 or C that you could consider. And if someone that cares about you, knows your story well, can be a part of that decision making process, it's more likely you're going to arrive at the one that is really right and best for you.

Yep, yep, absolutely.

So, Rosie, speak to the other side of this, because for this podcast, we do have a lot of listeners who are men in recovery and thankfully in many of those stories, their spouse is also in a recovery group or maybe listening to the podcast with them. And then we do have men in recovery whose wives have not engaged or, you know, it's your problem. I don't want to deal with it. But their heart is to restore the marriage, to rebuild trust, rebuild intimacy. So what would you say to that, husband? Or, you know, it could be a wife who's rebuilding trust. But, you know, let's be honest right now, it's more often than not a husband. They've been the struggler. They've been the addict. They're pursuing healing. They're pursuing recovery. What are the best things they can be doing to support their betrayed spouse and show their genuine desire to change and rebuild the relationship?

Oh, that's my favorite question ever. How can guys help? Just before I start, if you've got a wife who is really resistant to getting into recovery, I would just send her a link to our podcast, because that's our whole job, getting people from discovery into recovery. So maybe we can help you out there because we try and make recovery.

There you go.

Yeah, we just. We try and make it as enticing as possible. And you can listen to all us chatting, and you can hear what recovery sounds like. And it's like, well, they sound like a fun group of women. Can't be all that bad. That's, you know, one of our big goals, to sort of like, just normalize it and make that first initial step just a little bit less scary. So, a, we're a resource, but if your wife is finding support, a big thing you can do is just be patient. Just be patient. I know you've done your disclosure, and you're feeling very proud of yourself. And, you know, what's her problem? Why? You know, she knows everything now. Why is she not trusting me? It's like, okay, it's gonna take a really long time. Her entire world has been upended. And Jake Porter has this amazing analogy of a filing cabinet of all your memories that has literally just been dumped out on the floor and scrambled. And that's her reality. She is desperately trying to make sense of what has gone on in the past. Like, hang on a minute. So those three years ago when we were there, you were doing what? And her brain is constantly searching for safety. So I know it might be frustrating that she's asking you the question for the 17th time, and she really should be over this by now. She can't help it. Right? So just to give you that reassurance that it's perfectly normal. It's part of the process. She's not going to be there forever. Just be patient. Just hang in there. Do the work. You know, show up as the husband you want to be. Don't get stuck in the. You know, the. What they call it the bad box. Don't get stuck in there forever, you know, like, I'm never gonna make this up. I'm. I'm an awful person. It's like, show up as the husband you want to be. Someone who is gonna be empathizing with her and validating her and just telling her that, yes, that was the reality, and that was awful. But by you showing up and being able to be with her in her pain is showing her that you have changed and that you're not the guy who hid it all from her. And that goes such a long way. You're not going to be able to undo what you did. But you can build something so much better by being this. And engage in another one of Jake's phrases is the cloud of struggle. It's gonna be difficult, you know, lean in to validating her pain. Lean into those moments where you really want to run away. You know, dial up the conversation that's getting awkward. You know, lean into it, because that is the way through it and out of it. And that's what's going to enable her to finally come out of her shell and trust her. Trust you again is not because you've erased what's happened, but because you're showing her that you are a new husband.

Yeah. So good. So good. I've told guys in group that your disclosure or those moments of discovery was like someone just took a bomb to your house of bricks, and now there are bricks just littering the whole yard, and they're everywhere. And recovery is like you going out and picking up a brick and bringing it back to the house and putting it on the foundation. Like, that's when you go to group, and then you go get another brick and put it into the foundation. And it's like, that's where you were patient with her and understanding of some pain. And it's just like brick by brick. And, yeah, it feels slow and it's long suffering, but you are, piece by piece, rebuilding the house that in a moment of discovery or disclosure, felt like it was destroyed. It takes that process. And sometimes you don't even realize when you've put a brick back in. But sometimes it is something as simple as noticing that she didn't have a lunch made, and you help out and make it, or you're aware of her needs, and it's like, oh, he never did that before. And you might even not even have thought of it. Oh, I'll do this. Because it'll show her that I've changed. You're just, you're making it your intent to be less about yourself and more about her, and that's putting another brick into the house. And over time, the house is rebuilt, but it can feel like a very slow process. So your words, Rosie of patience is very, very well needed.

Thank you. And I would say, because I do like that analogy of the bricks, the best way that you can make progress is when she goes and kicks over the wall that you've just put together. Because she is really angry still, and she is dealing with an awful lot is you just go, I totally understand why you did that. And you put the bricks back. Don't go. See, it's never going to get better.

I mean, it's going.

Yeah, it's going to trigger you just like whatever has triggered. Because.

Great point.

Yeah.

Because you, you know, making lunch where it's like, seriously, I don't care. You know, you've just, I don't know, slept with 300 prostitutes. I've just found this out, and now you're making lunch for me. I don't care. And you're just going to have to put those bricks back a lot of time. And she's going to be kicking them over for a while. And that's okay, because if you just keep picking them up, eventually that's how you show up as the guy that she always wanted. That's all she ever wanted, was just a guy who's going to pick the bricks back and allow her to be human.

Right.

You know, because this is for the first time now, her heart's coming out, and it's like, I've got years of pain that's ready to come out now, and you're just going to have to take it, I'm afraid, and just put the, you know, not that she can abuse you. And I think that's part of her healing, that she has to show up for you in a way that's helpful. But acknowledging that you're both struggling and both triggering each other. But as the one who did the betraying, it is your responsibility to pick the bricks up.

Right.

And eventually she'll stop kicking them over.

Totally. Okay. So, Rosie, we've talked a little bit about your ministry, and I'm hearing really an answer to the question we had wrote, like, why you started it. I would definitely hear that throughout. But what led to that name? I mean, talk about that a little bit more. And you kind of. You mentioned it toward the beginning, but I want to circle back to it. Again, what is the emphasis for fight for love? Talk about that.

It's because this whole journey is a really strange gift, one that nobody ever wants, but actually it could be the worst, best thing that ever happened to you and your marriage. Because by going down this rabbit hole and entering the cloud of struggle, you are going to develop the skills that normally take decades if you ever get there, how to actually be truly authentic and vulnerable and intimate with one another. And that is an amazing marriage. That is how we were designed to be naked with one another in every respect. That is how God designed marriage. I mean, it's a beautiful thing, but you can just see how Satan came in and just messed it up. And so the whole goal is to get back to that. And that's what we're fighting for. You know, what does Julie Slattery call it? Gospel centered sexuality. That's what we're fighting for. It's not just, you know, we're fighting against the pornography angrily. It's like, no, we are striving towards building something really beautiful. And in order to get there, we've got to tear down this dirty gray asherah pole of pornography that's in the way at the moment. And that's just part of it. It's not really about that. It's about, you know, getting to the underlying intimacy disorder and creating something new that's so.

It's just so good. I mean, it's what we talk about all the time. That recovery principle of it's not just what you're avoiding and saying no to, but it's what you're working toward and walking toward and pursuing that's also just as important.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rosie, we are so thankful for your voice in this area. A needed voice, literally your accent and.

Also your voice in the space. Totally.

It's just one we need more, more of. And in the church and in our culture, that is, I think, championing the needs and the journey of the betrayed spouse. But in a way that is to say the end goal is healthier marriages, not just self empowered women that are off doing their own thing. Because unfortunately, in our culture, there's kind of that women's empowerment movement that kind of leaves marriages in the dust. And you're the opposite of that. It's empowering women to have their voice so that they can be in God honoring marriages, hopefully in the one they're in. But we know that's not always the case, that sometimes God will lead people to make those really hard decisions. And so we're praying for those that listen that are in these tough places where one or both of you are in between recovery and discovery. And I think Rosie and her ministry has so much to offer you as our listener. So, Rosie, you mentioned your podcast. Just what are other ways that people could be in touch with you, could be in touch with Fight for Love, could follow what you've done? Just clue our listeners in how they could continue to engage with your ministry.

Okay, so our website is fightforloveministries.org and I have a book which is sort of a biblical battle plan, or in other words, a idiot's guide to porn addiction for wives. That's called Fight for Love. The podcast is called Fight for Love. And then we have a growing Facebook group, a private group for women, and it's called Fight for Love Fellowship. And you can just come and lurk. Just come and, you know, hear the questions, hang out, get support. It's like a really easy baby step. The podcast, I think, is probably the easiest baby step. You can just listen to that in the privacy of your own home. Then maybe you want to join the group, and then you come to us and we will pop you on the life raft and show you where all the other fabulous resources are, like Pure Desire. And I just had. I was just interviewed Ashley, and she's going to be on our podcast.

Fantastic.

So that was a really cool interview. So very, very excited about what you guys are doing, because there'd be no point meeting what I did if there was nowhere to take people.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thanks, Razzie. Yeah, that's cool.

It becomes so clear, like, obviously sexual addiction and brokenness are entering relationships, and when it does, it's so damaging. But, Rosie, the biggest thing I'm taking away is that truth that we should be involving both spouses in. Really, what we're doing is we're fighting for marriages, as we've already talked about a number of times, that this restoration process is not so just one person and one person can get healthy, but that this marriage, these two people together can get healthy. So thank you, number one, for being with us today. It was so great with you. And then also thank you for what you guys are doing with your ministry.

Thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure to spend time with you today. Thank you so much.

Yeah. And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma. Lastly, never stop being healthy.

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