210 - Hope For Betrayed Men

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What is up, people? I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 210 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stembo.

Fine. Doing fine. Fine as fine can be. I'm fine, kids are fine. We're fine. Everything's fine.

Is that from something or is that just something you wrote out?

You know, that is from. For some of our listeners, they may have seen this video. It's John lynch, the author of True Face, who did a talk boy probably a dozen years ago. That for a while Pure Desire was really encouraging. People watch before they started a group on the two Roads. It was a part of his two Roads talk. And when he'd go into the room of, I can't recall what he called it, the performance room, basically, where everyone's wearing a mask. That that was their response. You know, when people ask how you are? Fine, Doing just fine. Fine as fine can be. Yeah, I'm fine. Kids are fine. So that I always think of that when someone says fine, I'm like, oh.

I always think freaked out, Insecure, neurotic and emotional.

Is that Die Hard?

No, that's Italian Job. That's Italian Job.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Yep. Yeah. Such a great movie. There's so many actors. That was my first introduction to so many of those actors. And now they're all people that I watch in all these crazy movies.

It's so.

Yeah, love that movie. Let's watch it later. Okay. So we had Rich Moore on to talk about really hope for Betrayed Men. It's not something we see very often, but it does happen. We're going to describe it.

Yes, sorry. We're going to keep this on. We're not cutting this. You're going right into like those three things. Yeah. I think it's an important conversation because as we bring up in several places in today's conversation, it just doesn't get talked about as much. I think for men there can be a lot of shame around it of their insufficiency to have a good relationship or what is it about me that wasn't good enough? And because it can hit at that personal level, sometimes it just gets swept under the rug or avoided. And yet there's a reality that this is happening for a lot of men and women. We live in a very sex saturated culture and men and women are getting hooked up in things they didn't intend to. And that impacts a marriage. And so whether it's the wife or the husband who's feeling betrayed and wounded by their spouse's behavior, it needs to be discussed. It needs to be faced. And we just walked through today what that might look like.

Yep. Yeah. And it is a good one. Rhys is part of Rich's story. A few things real quick before we get into it. Subscribe to the podcast. We're on all the major platforms. You can also follow us on social Media, Ear Desire, PDMI, and you can see these full episodes up on YouTube. And then, Nick, we just want to remind people again that we have something called Team 58.

Yes, Team 58. You know, one of the things that stands out to me a lot is when people will talk to me about Pure Desire. And, oh, you guys are one of the big names and you're helping a lot of people. And there is some truth that among recovery ministries, nonprofits, we're one of the larger ones, which to me is so sad because I know the scope of who we help is a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket. And if we're one of the large ones, like, there is so much blue water out there of lives that are not being impacted, of men and women that fall in to their time of crisis and they don't even know where to turn to who to call for help. And so that's why we've really begun to emphasize the need for people to partner with the ministry of Pure Desire, to join with us in what we're doing and help us further that message, to get more video content out there to reach more people. And that's what Team 58 is all about. That's the name of our monthly give or program for those that have just said, hey, I'm a part of what happens at Pure Desire. And whether that's, you know, $10 a month or several hundred, it's a way that they're engaging and staying in connection with us and us staying in communication with them. And all of it coming from a great passage at the end of Isaiah 58, where God says that your salvation, or the prophet, you know, speaking for God, says your salvation will come quickly, it'll break forth like the dawn, and you will be known as those who rebuild the broken walls and restore homes. And that's what Team 58 is for us, that we are a part of helping rebuild homes, restore lives, and help people walk in freedom. And so just want to encourage people to consider becoming a monthly partner. And when you do, you join team 58, we send you some free stuff, and hopefully you get to feel like you're really a part of something.

Yeah. And you absolutely will be. So go to PureDesire.org give and join Team 58. All right, here's our conversation with our international groups coordinator, Rich Moore on Hope for Betrayed Men. All right, Rich, thanks for being back with us.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

It says I'm supposed to call you skinny here, which you are. You've lost a ton of weight.

That's amazing.

Tell the people.

I don't feel skinny.

How much?

Well, to be honest, I. I got to 131, and I gained a little bit back, so I think I'm at, like, 126.

You know, there are people who never in their life will lose a quarter of that.

You know, there are people who don't weigh 126. You lost a whole person.

Please don't lose all of that. Yes. Well, we're not here to talk about your weight loss. We're here to talk about another fun part of your life, though. So most of the time when we talk about betrayal, it usually has to spent toward women, because that's the primary percentage of the couples that we meet is that the husband is the one who's struggling and the woman is the betrayed. But that's not always the case. And, Rich, this is part of your story, being a betrayed spouse and your first marriage being in that. And so we wanted to really dive into how this actually can happen for men and really looking for hope for betrayed men. So that's what we're getting into today. And the first question really is this. Is there a difference in how it's experienced between men and women? Men experiencing betrayal? Is it different? And if so, how?

That's a great question. And. And I don't know if I have, like, a really great answer for that, because guys are just. Obviously, we're wired different. And I would say it, in the overall scheme of things, it does, because there's that trauma. There's. That trust is all broken, but guys will just naturally handle it different, and they'll just tend to move on and forget it because they don't want to deal with stuff. That's how we've been raised. It's like you just kind of sweep it under the rug and don't worry about it, but it usually comes out later in life and, you know, especially if. If the marriage is still rocky and. Because they've never resolved that issue. Yeah, I think the pain is there. But guys in general don't like to face the pain. And we see that just with guys who are struggling, who are struggling, don't even like to go face the pain.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's obviously painful in any situation when someone that we are connected to at that deep, deep level is fixating on or pursuing someone other than us, whether it's in a real relationship or something in, you know, on screens or fantasy, there's pain with that. But one of the things we do talk about a lot with women who struggle with sexual addiction or pornography is the way they can feel the double shame of, not only do I have shame over what I'm doing, but I have the shame over I have a man's problem. And so, in a sense, I think we could kind of reverse that. For the man who is in the betrayal side is not only does he have the pain of, why is my spouse. Why is my wife doing this? But maybe that double shame of, well, this isn't supposed to happen to men. This isn't supposed to. You know, men are supposed to be the ones that have sexual addiction issues. That's more common. What's wrong with me? And I think that's where maybe it's primarily different, because we've talked about it on this podcast, that I think men are designed by God to fundamentally be looking for that sense of affirmation of, am I a man? Am I good enough? Do I have what it takes? And there are very, you know, right and good ways that we can receive that affirmation from others. But it's an area that Satan really can wound us, Because I would think in this area, maybe more than in any other, it would cause a man to doubt, why am I not enough? Why am I not good enough? Why was my spouse not content with what we had? And so the way that I think our psyche can work against us as men can really cause a lot of struggle. So that's not to say women don't ask the same question. I just. I think the way they would phrase the question for themselves is a little different, where for men, it strikes very deep at their value and identity.

Yeah. And I think, too, there's a culture thing where. And, you know, I've had some conversations with some pastor friends of mine that one in particular has mentioned over and over again. It seems like that men are taught that really the only negative emotion we're allowed to show is anger. And so when something like this happens, that's how it's going to come out. It's going to come out in, well, crying about it is like when my dad saw me crying when I was growing up, he told me to like, stop being a little baby or stop acting like a girl. Right. And then so I've got all this, you know, potential woundedness that's already there. And so for me, the only way to do it is to get big and get angry. And so I think you'll see a lot of people in this situation, specifically men getting angry.

Yeah. Yeah.

So let's talk a little bit about this, Rich. How common do you think the situation or scenario is? And I know you have a piece of this in your own story, so maybe share a bit of that as well with our listeners.

Yeah, I think it's far more common than we know. Again, going back to just guys just don't want to talk about it. It's that old kind of, you know, growing up playing baseball and sports, it's like when you get hurt, it's like, oh, rub some dirt on it and get back out there.

Right.

So that's our mentality. And because of that, guys just don't talk about this thing. We already talked about that. But when you look at the statistics that we have just on the amount of women that are struggling and then you tie the husbands kind of into that, you know, it's out there. It's just guys aren't talking about it, which is. Which is sad because it is when you're able to process some of that stuff. And then I remember going through the Hope for Men with. With another individual because I had never gone through it. I've never. I was one of those guys that was just kind of, I'm just going to power through and. And I was in recovery and doing my own work through on the recovery on the addict side and in seven pillars and actually I was leading groups and stuff. So. But going through that, then I was like, you know, I think it was just a couple years ago I started to realize, like, oh, I didn't know. I really struggled with that and I didn't even. Because I just kind of buried it.

Yeah.

So I didn't even know that. Maybe I am a little hurt there.

Yeah.

And not to put any blame on her because I'm not going to do that, but I had to process my own pain out of that. So, um. But yeah, I think it's just far more common than we know.

Yeah.

You know, I just wish guys would open up about it.

When you think about too, if it's so often when something like, this happens because we talk about this all the time with the woman being the betrayed spouse is they feel like it's something that they've done or it's their fault.

Or somehow they're a failed. They're a failure.

Right. And so I can tell you right now that as a man, if I experience or even can, like, smell a hint of failure in my life, like, I run away and I try to avoid it. And so. And that's. I think that's more of a human thing. But I just know that, I mean, at least in my friends and even you guys here, like, I know that's a part of it for men. And because of that, I feel the shame because I feel like it's my fault or somehow I'm to blame. And now this thing happened and I don't want to have to admit it. So it's like this double portion of shame that I'm feeling. So why would I. Like, what's the. What's the benefit to me? Like, I'm just. If I tell people about it, I'm just going to have to tell people, which I believe actually is an inaccurate story of what happened. But I think that men caught in this can feel like I have to tell people this happened and it's my fault.

Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right that because of the failure and shame, it is more common for a man to either hide it or run from it. And so the marriage just ends. And we don't hear from them because they're not looking for help. The man is just acting on anger. And like, whatever, I'm out of here, forget it. And so rather than seeing that there is hope, there are other options, I think, because they don't address the failure or shame, the marriage just implodes, or they don't talk about it at all. And yet, you know, an answer to this question, like, how common is it?

The.

The other thing we want to remember is that it takes two, right? So we hear a lot about a guy who comes to group or to pure desire because he had an affair and he acted out with other women. Well, there's a partner in that affair, and I think more often than not, it's a married woman. So we don't always pay attention to that as much because there's almost sadly a cultural thing that just says, well, men have affairs, men cheat. Men are cheaters, but can forget, well, they're cheating with someone, and often that is a married woman. And so when that's the case, just like we Would say, in one marriage, healing takes both. If there's been an affair, there needs to be healing in multiple families, and we can't just focus on one or the other. And that may be something to remember for churches and for leaders. Like, if you come to a situation where someone's acknowledging an affair as it's appropriate, you need to find out if there's ways you can care for the other half of the equation, the person who was in the affair with them and what's happening in their marriage. And because we don't always pay attention to both sides, but we really need to, because I think it is common.

Another distinction that I think is important to make is I think that there's also this, like, stigma with male, female, where if a woman is addicted to pornography, that that makes her more sexual, and that can somehow be, like, attractive to a man or to a husband. And so it's not just people who are having affairs. It's also pornography. And we know that, like, if someone's addicted to porn, the spouse feels betrayed. But it's interesting because you are a betrayed spouse, whether you feel it or identify it that way or not. Like, if your wife is viewing pornography and masturbating, there is going to be betrayal. Like, it's going to be experienced. Trauma is going to happen whether you admit it or not. So whether you talk about it or even realize it. So I think it's important just to say that even though there are those stigmas with male, female, and how they might react to a situation like this doesn't mean that that limits the amount of betrayal that takes place. All right, so let's keep going, because this doesn't fit into what people might expect. You know, we often assume, and statistics would show it's a little bit more, that there are men who are the ones who struggle or addicted and women who are betrayed. When it's this flip, as Nick mentioned earlier, you have the, like, a woman feeling like maybe she's dealing with something that's a man's issue. How do we help men who've experienced this betrayal break free of that double portion of shame and actually start sharing their story?

Yeah, that's a great question.

We wrote them. I know.

I really. I really think the one thing I was thinking is, as you were asking, the question is, guys, we're so prideful, so we can have. As long as.

No, I'm not.

Yeah, yeah, we can look as long as we look okay on the outside. And this is the same for the addict side, too, as long as we look good on the outside, nobody needs to know. And it's like, I've talked to guys who. Who have been betrayed, and they're like, it's not a big deal, but it really is. And because. And a lot of these guys, like Nick said, some of these guys are actually in the Pillars group because what's happened is, yeah, they've married somebody who was. Because we've been struggling with the addiction our whole life. They've actually. So they've found somebody that fits that, who may also be in that same situation. So not realizing when they. When they get together and get married that this person may have the issue. And now they're so focused on, well, their own healing that they really don't want to focus on the betrayed side because it's just too much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think this is one of those areas where it is so important, again, what kind of pronouns and language we use around recovery, because many churches we've seen in many family units, many individuals are still stuck in a place of saying, well, all you men who struggle and all the women are betrayed. And it's very, you know, one gender on each side of the equation. And that's unhelpful to so many that are in this reverse situation. And so as we encourage people when we talk about this, we need to focus on the human condition, that we are all sexual beings. We're all born into a fallen world and have to deal with our own brokenness. And whether that's things done to us or by us, we're people that are in need of redemption of Christ's work in our life. And we might be the man who's been betrayed or the man who's struggling. And if we can allow there to be both categories, like this just all fits within brokenness and the need for redemption. And whatever side you're on, we're here to help. And I think we can communicate that, like I said, as individuals or as churches, to just create that atmosphere of. This is an all of us together working towards wholeness, not just those of you with that problem.

I think another thing too, with this question is I think when we hear the phrase share your story, you think in front of the church, from the stage to everybody, when in reality, what we mean is really just one person, at least one other person. And we talk about it so often on the podcast that when we share our story, it tends to unlock things in other people's story as well. Like, oh, I didn't realize that someone else experienced that. Now I feel empowered to start sharing my story. So I think you can almost look at it as like a backwards pyramid scheme you're building out in the sense that you're creating a lot of people who are now free to tell their stories. And it only has to start with one person. It does not have to be you going to the pastor and saying, pastor, I have a really bad thing that happened. Do you have any time in the sermon this weekend? It's like, that's not what we're talking about.

So, Rich, talk a little bit about what does it look like for men to heal from betrayal? What is required for them to take steps out of that and really return to a place of wholeness, peace, stability? What does that journey look like?

Yeah. Well, just like what Trevor just said, I think part of sharing your story and then maybe it starts with one individual because you have to be able to talk about it for one. And if you're not talking about it, then it's just always going to be there. So the fact that it can start with one, obviously getting in a small group where there's other guys, because it's no different than guys that are coming into the addiction. Men or women that are coming into the. The addiction groups are like, I thought I was the only one, you know? Oh, there's more people that struggle with it because guys will initially think, well, I'm the only guy that.

Right.

You know, I'm. I've been cheated on. Nobody else gets cheated. No other guys get cheated.

Well, because that's all. That's what I hear from the front. So I've almost been bred to believe that.

Yep. So I think when we can accept the fact that I am not the only one, then it. Then it becomes easier to maybe take that step forward and reach out. I literally, in all the groups I've led over the years, if I had to put a number, well, I don't even know what the number would be. But I would say a great majority of those guys have been on the betrayed side, too. Just because, like we mentioned earlier, unhealthy finds unhealthy. And then you put them together, now they're both unhealthy. I mean, it's just. It goes hand in hand.

Yeah. And I just think of anything that goes unprocessed is going to come out sideways in some way or another. And so, like, being in a group community, being able to share a story, shared experience, you know, in some ways, too, there's this, like, weird dynamic of is it selfish? For me to, like, find my voice in the situation and share my experience and my pain and create boundaries. Like, it almost feels like that's the unloving thing, especially in the church. I think there's an assumption that that's what that looks like. And so I think that we need to be willing to not only share it, but also acknowledge what we're feeling and be able to share that with our spouse. Yeah. And process. You have to process it or it's going to come outside. Yeah.

It strikes me how important it is in this situation, as it is in any recovery journey, but maybe especially for men, that they. They see those stages of the grief cycle and realize, like, this is a loss. You have to grieve. The kind of relationship you had isn't there. Maybe the hopes you had for that marriage or relationship aren't going to pan out in the way you thought. And so there is grieving. And so that, you know, working through shock and denial and denial might be the guy who's saying, well, it's no big deal. I'm not going to think about it. We're just going to move on. Moving into bargaining. That may be a guy who's saying, well, you know, I'm not a great person either. I've made my own mistakes. And so, you know, we just. We kind of rationalize it. Moving into anger, like letting us, letting ourselves feel it and letting it matter, but then ultimately moving to acceptance and facing reality and being willing to live in it until that grief kind of works through us. That's what healing looks like for so many of us in any journey. But I also think related to that, maybe what you guys are bringing up for. For some guys, their. Their reaction is just to push it away, and they don't really know how to feel it or experience it, so they have no emotion. And I think if we're in this situation and we feel like I don't really care about it, I have no emotion, that's actually something to explore as well, because this matters. I mean, if this is in our core relationship, our marriage, it fundamentally does matter. And if something in us isn't even able to recognize that, that's a question we want to process with a friend or maybe a counselor that can help us get under the surface a little bit to say, what is it about our way of coping with pain, discomfort that is allowed us to just push these emotions totally out of the way. Because like you were saying, Trevor, it's not that they're not there, it's just that we're not facing them. And so getting help with that, I think could be crucial too when we're.

Taught not to feel. I mean, we've been programmed not to feel as guys from birth, basically.

Well, and too like negative feelings suck. Therefore when I feel them, I don't want them. Which is why people numb out, which is why people drink and watch porn.

Or lift weights or exercise.

There are so many ways.

Yeah, whatever.

Yep.

It's just totally in the makeup, I think, for us as broken humans. So. All right, so we talked about it. You mentioned it already. But let's talk a little bit about the resource that we have for men who have experienced betrayal trauma.

Yeah. So it's a Hope for Men material. It's roughly 16, 20 weeks. Roughly, I think it take to get through it. Like I said, I've taken a few guys through it and the first time when I went through it with an individual, I was going through it for myself too, just because I knew it was in my. And then I just tell you that the. The basic process was just really eye opening. It was like, wow. I mean, I knew I had stuff obviously from my own story.

Yeah.

But there's a lot of crossover in there of just like feelings and all that stuff and processing some of that. So I was. I was pretty surprised how the stuff I've learned in Seven Pillars and going through this, some of that was in kind of worked in a lot of like the family stuff in the background in the history. So I just think it's a great resource and we do have, you know, we have leaders that are ready to lead that online.

You know. Another resource we have that people might find useful is a book that was authored by Rick and Tiffany Bowman. Rick and Tiffany have been a big part of Pure Desire and leading groups and helping others. But their story that they share in their book Mended is this one where the affair side was with her and his reaction to it. And what I really appreciate about Mended one. I mean, there's a chapter at the end written by their kids and their recovery journey. And that if you can read that chapter without tearing up, man, you know, that's just a powerful, powerful chapter.

You need to start feeling your feelings.

If that's where that chapter will help you get in touch with your emotions. It's just beautiful the way their kids are processing their new life. But what I like about their approach is both Rick and Tiffany take an honest look at themselves. Rick wasn't blaming himself for the affair, but was able to look at what was I Bringing into the relationship that created an environment where my wife couldn't tell me about these things, where we didn't have the level of intimacy that I was aware it was going on. And so he was able to. I think in the book, he processes both his contributions without blaming, but also processes what he had to work through in terms of recovering from that betrayal and learning to trust again. And what did it look like to repair or that marriage. And then Tiffany obviously processing her side as well. But I'm just not aware of many stories like that that are out there, especially to that level, where it's not just one side or the other bashing the other person. So look for Mended on our store. That could be a great entry point. If you're listening to this and saying, I don't know how I would ever tell another person or beyond, you know, this close friend that I've told about it. I don't want to deal with it. I think reading Mended could really help you enter into someone else's story and look at some of the steps they took towards health.

Yeah, we'll make sure Mended is in the show notes. And also Rick and Tiffany share a little bit of their story in our Sexual Integrity 101 video course, too, if you're interested to hear more of their story.

So, Rich, we're talking a lot about for the man, what does recovery look like? What steps to take? What does it look like for the relationship or the marriage that when it's possible, and we know sometimes it may not be up to them, maybe the marriage has already ended, but in a lot of stories, the relationship is kind of at play, like, which direction is it going to go? So what can men do? What does restoration look like after a husband has experienced betrayal and is starting to find maybe some traction in his own recovery?

Yeah, it's great because I have the same conversation with guys that I've taken through the Hope for Men as I do with the guys in Seven Pillars. So you may decide to leave your spouse or your spouse may decide to leave you. But I let them know, I encourage them to say, you need this. You need to go through this. Regardless of what happens with the marriage, you need to be able to process the pain and the trauma that you just went through and to be able to move forward. Now the goal is, as we know, is to have husband and wife in their respective groups doing the process together and then possibly counseling as well.

But.

And I think when they, you know, the success rate of that to get when they're doing it together, it's just much higher. But I do let them know that regardless of what happens, this is something you have to do. Because there's those underlying. Last thing you want to do is just the marriage dissolves and then you'd become this angry guy for the rest of your life, which really creates so many other unhealthy relationships.

Yeah, the trajectory wants to get worse. Yeah.

Your kids don't want to be around you. I mean, it's just because that guy now blames his wife for everything, regardless of what happened. I see so many times where guys just trash their wives. And I'm like, you can't do that. She's wounded. You were wounded. You founded found each other again. You're both wounded, and you're just taking it out on each other. And the last thing you want to do is have your kids in that process hear you trash their mom.

Well, and that's where I would go with that, is that look restoration. Don't just look to the marriage, look to the family as well. So if you have kids, like, this isn't something that you and your spouse figure out and then never tell your kids about. Like, your kids need to know the history of your family for a number of reasons. You can make an epigenetics argument. You can make. Well, you can make the argument very clearly how it impacts them, whether they even realize it or not. They feel something's going on with mom and dad and they start acting differently because of it. And so it's something that, like, you just work at just the. I think of, like, if a missile hit the ground, you can't just, like, go to that site alone. You also have to go around to all the impact it's had in the surrounding areas. That being your household with your kids.

As you were sharing. Rich. What I think it's called is the pain principle, which says pain can't fix pain. So if you're in pain because of betrayal, I think there is something. And it's like, well, I'll show her and I'll go. I'll cheat on her. Or I'll go do these stupid things. Like, now I'm causing more pain. And that's not going to fix the pain I'm in or make it better. I've never. I'll tell you this. I have never heard a single story where someone went out and showed them and it made their situation better. Right. Like, it's just. It creates an implosion. And if that's where we're stuck you know, my encouragement as you were saying, Rich, like walk through some of this material first. Just decide, I'm not going to do anything drastic or major for six months. I'm going to, I'm going to sit in this difficult situation. I'm going to look for help, I'm going to connect with others, I'm going to walk through a group and. And if at the end of six months, you're in the same place saying, I can't trust this person, it's not working, you know, then you're making the decision out of a place of more health and kind of steadiness versus just reacting to the pain or the emotions of it. The other thing, then I'd say a lot of this question is dependent on what is the attitude of your spouse. So if your wife is living in denial or blame or rationalizing or not wanting help, you know, go back and listen to our podcast on one sided healing. And what if my struggling spouse doesn't want help because you're in a difficult situation that you may have to decide, is there enough trust? Because trust is the foundation of intimacy. Is there enough trust for this relationship to work? And that's a really hard place to be. Now, hopefully for a lot of men, their spouse is repentant, working on their own healing. And in that case, I think restoration looks like starting to come together on these conversations. Maybe working through our couple's workbook, Connected or doing the counseling at Pure Desire, which we've talked about. One of the unique things about our modality is the way that it's couples counseling couples. So it's a male, female team working with you as husband and wife. And when you're doing that work together, the restoration that can come into your marriage is really, really phenomenal. So I would say look for those opportunities. Where can your individual healing now really become about your couple ship or your marriage healing? And those opportunities will really make a big difference.

Modality and coupleship. I love both those words. Just thank you.

Throwing them out there.

Thank you. All right, Rich, so because this is part of your story, I mean, you have a unique position, I think here, and obviously Nick and I have encouragement too. But just what encouragement would you leave to a man who's listening to this, who has experienced betrayal, trauma and is just unsure of what's next or what healing even looks like?

Yeah, I think Nick just mentioned it. I. The biggest thing and I've told the guys is like, this is not. And then for those listening, this isn't your green light to go do the same thing. Yeah, we're not gonna process the pain by going out and having an affair just because she did it. Yeah, well, it's okay. What I do tell guys is if this is happening to them, you know, we signed a covenant with them in marriage for better, for worse. And our job as a husband is to love them no matter what and try and just process that and understand where they are. Because like I said earlier, most of the guys that I've run into. Well, actually all the guys for the most part, because I'm doing the addict side, the seven pillars for those that have been cheated on. So they understand the addict side already. And because they understand that it's like, don't make quick decisions. Understand that she's wounded, she's processing some pain, that maybe she was abused when she was a child, she grew up without a dad at home, and maybe there's some of those things that she's not. She hasn't shared with her husband yet. And take that as an opportunity to say, okay, and then you could process that, and maybe that begins a conversation of that stuff starts coming out. So that would be one encouragement just to, you know, I mean, our wives love us when we make mistakes. I can still love my wife if she makes a mistake. And then we just have to process that and then just don't be afraid to reach out. I think that's the biggest part is, again, guys just don't reach out when they're hurting on the betrayal side.

Yeah.

You know, there's so many guys out there that need this group. We know there's guys that need this group. Maybe not a lot of guys understand the process of what it looks like, but hopefully now we've talked about it, and then I just encourage you to sign up. We have, like I said, we have some leaders that are ready to go. We've tried to put it on there before, but we just haven't had much traction. Don't be afraid. I mean, if. Especially for the guys that are in seven pillars that have this, I would encourage them to also do, you know, run through this, because it's going to help. It's going to help both sides.

Yeah, I think that's such a great point, Rich. Just like we say to betrayed female spouses, his addiction isn't about you. We need to say the same to betrayed men. Like, her addiction isn't about you. You can't be perfect enough to fix it, and it's not your weaknesses that led to it. And when we start to see the Family of origin stuff, the way they're dealing with pain. It can help us take a different posture towards healing. Because now we're not putting ourself either in the seat of blame, I caused this, or the seat of the rescuer, that I can fix this. Because neither are gonna work out well for us or our spouse. So it's a difficult situation. I mean, even if their addiction isn't about us, it really, really hurts us. And part of it's just acknowledging that this is difficult. So don't walk through it alone. Reach out like Rich said. And I think the only other piece I'd add is this is an opportunity to really discover our identity in Christ in a deeper way. Because I think many men in this situation will suddenly find out how much they found their sense of value or identity in their marriage, in their spouse being a provider, you know, being the husband. And now it's like all of that kind of gets pulled out from under us. And it can feel like, well, who am I? What? Well, who you are has not changed, because who you are is who God has made you to be, who you are in Christ. And those things are firm and secure, regardless of what people around you choose to do. And so it's sometimes in these very painful times that we can discover the beauty of God's truths in a new way. And that's. I mean, that's not fun or easy, but it's definitely the kind of situation people can look back on and say, I'm grateful for what came out of it because of how I learned about myself in a new and deeper way. And so if you can keep your eyes on that hope or opportunity, even a little bit, I think it can give you the strength and courage you need to walk through this difficult situation.

Totally.

Yeah. And I'd add one more thing, too. It's like, I was just thinking about it as, like, what an opportunity for guys to show their wives what true love really is. Because they've never experienced it growing up as, even though there's a mistake and they did this. And especially for the guys in the Seven Pillars group who have experienced this, what an opportunity to show the love of Christ through their actions towards their wife. And not saying, you know, because you did this, I'm going to do this and just totally wreck the marriage. Now, sometimes that happens, but there's an opportunity there, especially because as guys, we understand the addict side.

Yeah.

But say, I'm going to choose to love you through this. I think there was a song through it. Love you through it or something like that, but I think there's an opportunity.

To enter it in here. Justin, just.

No, just kidding. MUSIC BEGINS PLAYING IN THE BACKGROUND yeah. For better or for worse.

Yep.

You know, and this is maybe part of your worst, but Lord willing, it can lead you into your for better.

As I hear you saying that 100% agree. I also think at the same time, people can do the. Use that to, like, spiritual bypass. What's going on? Like, I think that's one of the thoughts I had as we're closing is just, yes, if your marriage does not make it, yes, that is a failed marriage, but that does not mean that it is your fault that it has ended. You can still do your work, you can still get healthy, you can still take steps forward, but if your spouse doesn't want to be in it, do not live the rest of your life thinking you're a failure because one marriage failed. Like, that does not define you, and that's not your identity. And I also could think that there may be some people who are listening who've experienced betrayal. Guys who are listening who've experienced betrayal and think, like, I'm all good. Like, you know, I don't. I don't. I think I'm okay. Like, maybe I've processed it. I would just ask, are there places in your life or pockets during the day where you, like, obnoxiously overreact or underreact to situations? And if that's what's going on, there may be a lot more going on on the surface than you realize. Like, if I overreact, you know, because for me, I think of with my kids, if my kid is asking me to do something that he asks me to do every single day, and today I'm blowing up at him for no apparent reason, that's an indication something is going on beneath the surface. So I would just kind of scan your life and. And try to figure that out. And don't just say, like, I'm okay because I'm not seeing it or I'm not wanting to go out on a binger or something like that doesn't mean you're not experiencing trauma. So, okay, this is not a fun situation. And I don't think that statistics show that it's super, super common. But we often use that, I think, to maybe justify it away or not process it as men. If we have experienced this just because it's, quote, not common, men experiencing betrayal need to feel this. We made that really evident through the episode. Process it and also get into a safe group. We have Hope for Men and we have online groups Correct. For Hope for Men as well. So wherever you're at, you can get into one of these. And restoration of marriages is what we're after here. But ultimately your health is most important. So even if your marriage does not make it, your health is very, very, very important. So not letting betrayal wreak havoc for the rest of your life is why healing is so important. So rich. Thank you for sharing your story. I know it's a hard part of your story and then also just adding your perspective to the conversation.

Yeah, no problem.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma. That is a lot of words. And lastly, never stop being healthy.