211 - Stories Of Healing: Evelyn James

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hello. Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 211 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here, joining me as always, my co host, Nick Stumbo.

We can work it out, we can work it out Try to tease things my way. I wish I knew the song. It's a really nice one.

That's my favorite part. It's the Beatles instrumental.

We can work it out, we can work it out.

I know. And now the listener's gonna be like, oh my God, he didn't know that was the Beatles.

Just way before your time and my time. But be gracious. But they're classic, right?

They are classic. One of the all time greats. I mean, people think they're the all time greats.

Have you seen the movie where like there's only one guy in the world that knows the Beatles song?

Yes.

Yeah, it's a great movie.

Oh, it's going to drive me nuts. I'm going to IMDb right now, talking so I can.

He's like trying, you know, he's playing like this amazing Beatles song. One of his friends, like, well, I mean, it's not like fix you or anything. It's not great, is it? It's like this is the greatest song ever.

Yesterday, it's called Yesterday.

His friends are like, yeah, it's okay.

Yeah, it's called Yesterday.

Good movie, by the way.

It's a great movie. Watch it. Okay, so today we had on Evelyn James. And Evelyn is a life coach. She's experienced betrayal and we had her on just to share her story of healing.

Yeah. And really a lot of great insight about what happens in a marriage. I mean, as you're going to hear, she found out on the honeymoon about her husband's pornography issues and just what that brings into a marriage. It's tough. But I think the message of this episode is we can work it out, like with the help of God and others and having some real practical ideas about boundaries and community in our life, like we can work it out and find a better tomorrow. And her story is just such a great example of that and I think will provide hope to our listeners, whether they're, you know, a couple years into their journey and really will be saying yes and amen to a lot of what she says. Or maybe they're on the front end going, oh my word, can I survive today? I think this episode will give them a lot of hope. And Evelyn just did a great job sharing her story.

Yes, it really is a powerful story and she's helping a lot of people. So. So it's really, really cool. Few things. Subscribe to the podcast. Just don't wait anymore. Just do it. We're on all the major platforms, even Audible. If you have an Audible subscription, you have no excuse. There it is. Listen. Also, follow us on social media earedesirepdmi. We also have full episodes up on YouTube. And then, Nick, we wanna remind people the summit is coming.

The summit is coming. When will this episode be out?

How close are we before the summit?

Okay, so non committal there. We're getting close. I feel like time is getting close. Yeah. We want you to come and join us for a great weekend, whether online or hopefully in person. And just the way that this encourages all of us, not only in our own story, but in thinking of today's episode like, it encourages us to look forward and say, how will God use my story in the lives of others? And honestly, that's a process that never ends. And so if you're a couple years into your story, you're maybe thinking, oh, we're healed, we're doing better. We don't need to go to a conference. Well, the conference really isn't as much about your healing as it is how do we make this a part of our story and our ministry to others. And the summit will just be a huge boost to your own story and what God could do through you next.

Yeah, and we're going below the surface. We're looking at the inner world and exploring all of that and how that impacts our recovery and healing. So if you register now for in person or virtual before August 16th, you will get lifetime access to the summit. You heard me right. Lifetime access to the sessions, to the breakout sessions. You'll get the whole summit. So go to PureDesire.org summit it and register today, like, right now. Like, pause this and go do it right now. All right, here is our episode and conversation with Evelyn James where she shares her story of healing. Evelyn James, welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast.

Thanks for having me.

We. So we'll get into your story a little bit, but I know you and I have interacted a little bit over Instagram. I kept. I took Instagram off my phone, which, I mean, Jesus is happy about, I think. But we have interacted and I noticed that we kept getting tagged in, like, stories and in posts by this person over and over again. And then I think there was one day that we had a couple Hundred people started subscribing to us that started following us, and it was just like, okay, like, I'm gonna start paying attention a little bit. And so you have annoyed us so much by giving us so many notifications and followers. We felt like we wanted to hear your story. And I know that you have a powerful one and have experience with pure desire. And so we just wanted to get into that. So, yeah, let's just get going.

Yeah. Yeah. Evelyn, we're excited to hear your story of healing and just really appreciate the way that you have been vocal in a very social media kind of way about healing and hope and recovery and topics that honestly, a lot of people don't know how to talk about or have never had the courage maybe to face their story. So our hope is, as you share with us today, that for a lot of the listeners, it will give them an idea of what is the next step in their story and in their journey. And so for a lot of our listeners and followers that may not know, you just share a little bit about your background, what you do for work, ministry. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.

Awesome. Well, I'm Evelyn. I am a life coach and have been doing that actually for just over a year and a half. And before that, I was actually running a betrayal and beyond group out of my home for a few years. And then when I got into life coaching, I was like, you know what? I am not talking about that stuff. That is not for the Internet world. I am out. And I focused solely on, like, helping women deal with trauma, not this kind of trauma and self worth working through those things. And I love it. But I really felt like God was nudging me for a long time. And I actually had a woman reach out and say, so did you deal with, like, betrayal in your marriage? And then started asking really specific questions. And I was like, where is she even getting this from? She's like, I kind of just read into it because I'm going through that. And I was like, oh, oh. I maybe should speak more about this. So then I kind of had a Jonah moment, and my husband and I were praying about it and talking about it, and I was like, I don't want to. I don't want to talk about addictions and pornography on the Internet. Like, that is not what I want for my life. No, thanks. And I just was like, okay, fine. I will share one post and we will see what happens. And I was like, no one's going to see it anyway. Whatever. It'll be fine. I gained a thousand followers overnight.

Wow.

And my inbox was flooded with women's stories of betrayal and heartbreak. And I was like, oh, crap, I have to do this. So I stepped into it and was like, okay, God, it's yours. And the great thing is that actually, as I've been doing this, he's reminded me over and over again how this is what I prayed for during the trauma, during all of the pain of betrayal and all of the recovery journey that we walked through, our prayer together. And my prayer on my own was that someday God would use this for his good and his glory. And thankfully, he's doing that, and I actually stepped up to allow him to, but I really didn't want to do that on the Internet. So that's where I am. That's what I do. And I just really try to help women who are struggling the way I did as best as I can.

Yeah. Yeah. I love the way you call it your Jonah moment, because I think so many of us have had that, where it's like, we sense God nudging and saying, other people need to know there's hope and there's healing available. And we're like, no, Lord, I just. I just want to go about my life. And we dealt with it. We're better. Like, thank you. But I don't need to keep revisiting it, because there is a part of, like, sharing our story is kind of revisiting some of our mess, and it'd be easier. It would. It would be easier to just move on. But as it turns out, in your story and so many others, where God is nudging, there's a purpose, there's a reason. And it's pretty exciting the way you saw that, even overnight, the response of women saying, you're giving a voice to something that I need help with. And so thank you. And that's pretty cool.

Yeah. So when, like, let's kind of go back to that.

Right?

Like, you didn't ever want to share about this on the Internet, and now you're on the Pure Desire podcast. People will see this on YouTube and listen to this on whatever platform. So go back to, when did betrayal, trauma enter your life? Talk us through that experience.

Absolutely. We got married when I was 19, and I went on. Well, we went on our honeymoon to Hawaii, and I went to send an email using his laptop and found all of his search history and was like, what is happening? I fully, wholeheartedly believe that Christian men did not struggle with this. That's just. They don't. Why would They're Christian men. I had no idea. I was floored. And then I had this belief that maybe it would just go away. And I was wrong. I think also my husband was kind of hoping that it would. Right now we're married. You know, we waited till marriage, then we got married, and it was like, okay, well, all the problems will go away now. There's no need to wait. All of that will be great. And it wasn't. And it just got worse, and he just had to hide it more, and I would keep finding it. And it was this vicious cycle that went on and on and on for far too long. So that's when it happened. It took quite a few years of us just stumbling through it and not really. Really being sure how to handle it. We didn't have anyone to help or talk to about it, and we just kind of kept it hidden for a very long time.

Yeah. Did you guys. I mean, because I think about that, too. That's such a. It's not a unique situation. It's something that a lot specifically Christians go through. They get married, they realize this has been a part of their spouse's life. Did you guys have conversations about that, like, early on before? And what were those like?

We didn't actually ever talk about porn specifically. We had had a handful of conversations through, like, the premarital, marital counseling kind of sessions, and not a lot of them actually are premarital. Counselor. Counselor got cancer while we were in the middle of our journey with him, and we never saw him again after. So it was like we had a couple sessions and then nothing, and we just got married. So kind of wish there was a bit more in there. Yeah, we kind of just had a few talks about, like, what sex and intimacy should be in marriage, but I think we were both really misunderstanding the whole thing. We really didn't know what intimacy looked like. We both didn't really have great examples of that in our lives, and we just. We didn't really answer those questions for each other. And also, I didn't know to ask them. I just trusted that it would be okay.

Right?

Yeah.

Well, that's really why I love that we do these stories for healing episodes, because I think you are. You're telling the story, Evelyn, that like, hundreds, if not thousands of people are at home going, yep, yep. Like, when I was growing up, no one prepared me. No one helped me understand. No one. No one trained us, no one discipled us into how to think about this, how to handle if it came up. And so you just very Often can enter into marriage with this blissful and right. So, like, we're trying to follow God's way. We're doing it the right way together. We're trusting him. You know, our vows are faith filled. And then, like, all this stuff comes. It's like, oh, my goodness, why did nobody talk about this? Why didn't they bring it up? And so hopefully for many listeners, this is echoing their story. And maybe for others, though, it's helping them understand why they ended up where they're at. Like, oh, I was never trained. I was just never walked into health in this area. And so in your story, Evelyn, where did that become? I mean, you discover it on the honeymoon. So from early on in the marriage, like, okay, it's there, but when did it become an issue? When was it something you recognized? I mean, obviously it was an issue right away, but, like, when did it grow to that point of we've got to do something here and reaching out for help? How did that occur?

Well, I think we actually took every single wrong step possible in our relationship. I kind of was like, okay, so I'm not okay with this. And then I was like, should I be okay with this? I don't really know where the line is. I come from not a great upbringing. My family of origin is quite complicated. And I was actually raised being told what my job as a wife was. I was a very young person when my parents explained what, like, blue balls were and, like, told me that was my responsibility. And, you know, if anything happens in my marriage, it's my fault.

Wow.

Gosh.

Kind of messed up.

Yeah.

Not. Not accurate and not, not good to teach a young girl. So I went into, okay, so clearly this is my fault. I must be broken. He must not be satisfied. This is all my fault. And then they echoed that when I did ask for help. Of course, my parents just continued to perpetuate that, like, blame and cycle. It was not great. And then I was like, okay, I'm not okay with it being other people imagine me. And then I was like, that's not okay. I'm not okay with that. I would rather have a relationship with you. I'm just not okay with it at all. So it was these slow, slow steps of, like, wait, what? How much of it's okay? Is it okay if I'm not able to? Is it okay if I'm pregnant and don't want to? Like. And I think a lot of women walk through that too, where they're like, well, I'm okay with him looking at it. Because I'm pregnant. And I. Eventually I was like, I'm not okay with it ever. And then it became, wait, God's not okay with this ever?

Yeah.

And that's when our line was like, okay, this has to change. I really. What happened is I put my foot down and was like, I'm never okay with this. It has to change or it's done.

Yeah.

Like, that's it. I can't do this forever. And good for you. Messy and painful. Right? And a long journey.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm just thinking of our recent podcast episodes with Rosie McKinney and Sheila Ray Gregoire, and, you know, some of their comments about these very issues, like both how we perpetuate those myths of how to help someone when really we're just entering into their unhealth and creating more unhealth. And then how Rosie McKinney brought up that so often in marriages, where this stops is when the betrayed spouse realizes it's not okay and it will never be okay, just like you said. And hopefully, in appropriate way, can put their foot down and say, it's got to change, or something about our relationship will have to change. That's the encouragement. Often people need to go, oh, I've got to deal with this. And so I know that can be messy and painful, but it sounds like that was really a moment that God then used to lead you guys into a healing journey.

Yeah, it was definitely not the nicest way to put it, probably, when I.

Actually said things, well, you're in pain, you're hurting. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yes, Definitely hurting. A lot was said. I'm sure that I would regret at this point, and hopefully I'm helping women do that a little differently than what I did. But it definitely was a catalyst. And. And I just said, like, this isn't just for me. This is for our marriage, and this is for our family. And ultimately, this actually has to be between you and God. You have to choose this because you're sinning towards yourself and towards God. And it can't be about fixing it for me. It has to be about fixing it for you. Yeah. And with your relationship with him. So that's when my husband actually started getting help and actually found, funny enough, he found pure desire through listening to a different podcast where they were talking about it.

Sweet. Well, thank you, whoever that podcast is. Right.

We'll take it.

I think what you are bringing up, though, is also important that it's okay that the addict feels the consequences, that it's not your responsibility to handle you putting your Foot down perfectly. You can do the absolute best that you can. You can say the nice. Even if you could do it perfectly, they probably wouldn't take it well. Like, it's just. It's that way. And so that's part of the healing process. The journey starts when you start to feel those consequences, when you can experience a rock bottom type of moment. And so I want people to, like, hear what you're saying, that it was the foot being put down. I think of inside out, like, the foot is down. Do you remember that line? And when that happens, that's what kickstarts this for so many people. And so don't drag your feet on that if you're feeling it, maybe have some conversations, even if you need to ride it out, take some. Put some thought into it. But that is such a huge piece and don't avoid that. So let's keep going though. You talked a little bit about your family of origin already being potentially a hurdle, something that kind of got in the way of that freedom taking place. So what were some other things that you felt like were kind of just stuck in the middle of the road that you had to find a way around?

Like you said that my family of origin is actually quite toxic and abusive and that abuse continued into adulthood and into our marriage. They definitely, really, anytime anything came up, they would blame me or tell my husband that I was failing at it or all sorts of other things. It was not great and definitely put a wedge in our marriage. But then also the timing of it all. I was very young and we were having babies. We have four little kids. We dealt with loss in between. And through all of that, I'm struggling with loss, infant loss, and having newborns. And every time I'm finding things on the computer or on his phone or all sorts of other things and going, okay, so I'm failing. I'm not enough. I'm not doing what I should as a wife. I'm just all across the board, I'm a failure. And those messages just got perpetuated over and over again from anyone and everyone. And yeah, as we really, one of the catalysts for me and our change was actually stopping that cycle and stopping blaming myself for his issues and allowing myself to heal what I needed to heal so we can move forward. But that was probably the biggest things is that constant cycle of, like, being caught in abuse and also the abuse from my partner. Right. There's all sorts of intellectual and emotional abuses that go on with an addict and then also trying to not drown in the Mess of like, motherhood and babies and hormones and all of that at the same time. Yeah, it was not the best timing to go through any of that. Not that there is ever a good time.

There's definitely not the best. Yeah, right.

Yeah, well. And I think that's the truth of addiction and betrayal and struggle for so many people. It's like it's added to the complexities of life. I mean, let's just be honest, being married, raising kids, establishing careers, like that stuff's hard enough by itself, let alone.

One of those alone is hard by itself.

All these relational dynamics that can just push a couple over the edge. And I really like what you pointed out, Evelyn, that your healing in many ways began when you understood what you needed to do, when you faced some of the lies that you were listening to. And I think that's true whether it's the addict, the one struggling, or the spouse that both are listening to. Lies, you know, on the struggle or addict side, it might be lies about. Well, this is just the way it is. I can't really help it. I've got these desires that are bigger than I am, and those are lies. And until we face the lies, we're probably going to keep giving into them. And on the betrayal side, you had to face the lies about your value, your worth, that your performance was somehow at stake. And when we start to build our life around truth, then we can work towards actual healing and recovery. So you talked about some strategies that you had tried early on. So we're about to turn the corner and talk positive about the healing and the good stuff. But before we move on to that, just knowing that we get listeners that are on all different stages of their journey, and some are still maybe in that trying harder. I can fix him. If we just do these things as a couple, it'll go away. What were some of the other strategies you guys tried, either you individually or you as a couple, that really didn't work or didn't help the healing process?

Well, my husband was met with a lot of pray more, try harder kind of responses from people, which has never really been very helpful because they're just white knuckling their way through. And he did have long stretches of keeping the lid on and trying to make our way through that. A lot of it. We actually did the journey ourself where we're like, okay, you know, trying to. Me being his accountability partner was terrible.

Yes.

Super painful for us. And him just not feeling like he had anyone else he could talk to about it. And myself as well. I talked to a very small group of women. Very few women actually knew what was happening. And that was not great for me either, because I'm a talkative person. I like connection and community, and I felt like I was being a different person and that they couldn't see that part. Not only just for myself, because of me believing it was my fault and that I was a failure, but that I didn't want to shame him or have people see that side of him and judge him for it. I mean, now I share it on the Internet, so he's kind of sorry.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. We get to that place.

Yeah. Eventually I thought to myself, I was like, I'm living in the silence and shame of this. And I didn't even do. Actually has. Like, I didn't. I didn't start it. I didn't cause it. I didn't have nothing to do with me.

Yeah.

But I'm suffering in silence for it.

Yeah.

So eventually I was like, yeah, no, this is your fault. You shouldn't have. You shouldn't have done it. If you didn't want people to know, then don't do it. So maybe not the best choice. But I did. I was able to open up and find people that could actually help me and support me in that and then also help me on my journey moving forward. So I found that community was actually a huge step for both of us because it also led him to find other people that thought more than just pray more, try harder, and could actually encourage him and be iron that could sharpen because he didn't have someone doing that.

Yeah. And that's such. It's like, I have. I know people personally that are in that situation or have been in that situation where you feel like you're in this double bind of my life is like, I literally got in a car accident. My spouse was driving, and now I can't tell anybody about it because I don't want to throw my spouse under the bus. I don't want them to know how dysfunctional they are. I don't want them to feel like I'm just putting them on blast in front of everybody else. But at the exact same time, that's suffocating you, and you cannot be.

But meanwhile, I have broken bones that need to be mended. I have all these.

And you can't walk. You're crawling around. And people are like, well, something's going on with Evelyn, but we don't know what's going on. She's like, oh, it's fine. Like, it just is such a. And I think often we can be very quick to blame or judge the church, that it's their fault. I don't think that it's like a one to one ratio there, but I do believe that there is a, I don't know, maybe a wrong kind of twisting of respecting your spouse. And, you know, you talk about respect, you talk about authority or leadership, whatever. I know that can be a different conversation. But you want to respect your spouse publicly. And so that balance seems really, really. It is. It's really hard to manage. And so I think in that a lot of people stay silent and it ends up destroying their lives, not just if the marriage lasts or not, but just their lives for the long term. So, again, I mean, I said it earlier, like, good for you that you put your foot down, because again, that's where it really starts.

I think also just to add to that, my husband and I are married and I respect him as my spouse. But also, we are part of the body of Christ together. So the way that we treat other members of the body of Christ also should dictate how we treat each other as partners. And there's a lot of verses about how to treat someone who is being abusive towards you in the Bible. There's a lot of other things beyond just the couple of verses about being a good wife or being a good husband. So I think it's important to look at it as a whole of not just that relationship, but the relationship within the body of Christ. And yeah, we should be edifying each other, but sometimes we actually should be challenging each other and saying, hey, I don't think you're right on that one. I don't think that's biblical. I think you actually need to look at that again. And that's what I did a lot in our relationship. And my husband openly tells people, like, if I didn't actually start challenging him, he probably wouldn't have changed anything. And I had to. I like, it came down to, this is sin against God. Like, this, this isn't okay. This is not how I want our kids to be raised. This isn't what our family should be. And it's not just about husband and wife. It's body of Christ. And I think that takes it a step further in how we should treat each other.

Yeah, that's good.

And maybe you can make the distinction between when it clicked for you and when it clicked for your husband, because those don't always happen at the same time. Right. Talk about that situation. When did it click for your husband. And then when did it click for you too that you needed healing for yourself?

Well, it clicked for me a lot longer than it clicked for my husband. I actually started dealing with my own self worth and self confidence from the childhood home that I had. I already had self hatred. I already had really low self worth and self esteem. I was hurting just from my family of origin. And then to add all of this other betrayal to it was just a lot and I was drowning. So I started to work on those things, which actually led me to dealing with my family of origin and actually building boundaries and not allowing them to continue to abuse me and all of those things. So dad became the first catalyst that was like, okay, if I'm not okay with them treating me like this, why am I okay with him treating me like this? So that really started to shift my thinking and be like, I actually need boundaries and everywhere in life, not just with these people, but with everyone. And, and that in turn, then again just builds that self worth and confidence even more to be able to handle all of the other situations. And then from there like standing up and saying, no, like, I don't deserve to be treated like that. I don't deserve to be blamed for your issue. I don't deserve to be, you know, coerced or you know, guilted into having sex. That's not what our relationship should be. That's not the way things should go in any relationship. And that started to kind of change things. And then eventually I actually said, listen, if this is going to continue, I. I'm going to have to leave. Like that's really what it came down to in our relationship. And, and I actually meant it, which I. That was not something I threw around as like a weapon to be used. I was at the point where I was at the end of my rope and I didn't want my kids to continue to see me being emotionally abused like that. And I didn't want, I didn't want my girls, I have daughters. I didn't want my daughters to think that that's what a marriage should be. I didn't want to perpetuate those things for anyone. And I just said, like, things have to change or I can't stay. And I think that reality and him being very aware that I wasn't playing, it started to make him say, whoa, I need to get help to do this. I can't do it on my own. There needs to be more. And then that's when he really started changing a lot of what was going on.

So at what point in that story, Evelyn, did you find a group for betrayal to start leaning into that process? How did that happen?

Yeah, that was actually goodness. We actually found pure desire to. Well, he found it and then brought it to me and was like, hey. And then we did the Conquer series together, which was interesting watching those. I mean, I like the information behind it. So I really soaked that up. I was like, okay, give me all of the information. And then we did a lot of that, like, recovery things. I was doing a lot of stuff separately with a counselor and things like that. And then we did a lot of the recovery work kind of side by side. And then he started doing more Conquer groups with people. And that's when I stepped into, like, being in a betrayal group and doing all of that. So that kind of was actually simultaneous as we stepped into those things.

Nice.

Yeah, yeah. So that sounds like there'd been a lot of steps taken already prior to, like, entering into the Conquer study. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a lot of steps all over the place. It was just a messy dance.

Well, and that's exactly why we're doing these stories of healing, because we hope someone hears your story and in a sense, that it fast forwards their process. Right. That they don't walk through years of trying all these other things and maybe this will work. That there's that moment of like, oh, we need group. We need community. We need people walking this road who know where they're going and actually have a plan. And if someone can hear that in their first few months of the crisis versus several years down the road, it makes a huge, huge difference. So along those lines, what are some of the key elements that you have found to finding healing from betrayal trauma? Like, what are the things that have really been making a difference for you and in your marriage?

I love. I call it the trauma timeline. I walk through it with clients all the time. We write out kind of a basic overview of the traumas, you know, small and large, big T and little T traumas throughout your life, and actually say, okay, what messages were you taking from that? What have you been holding onto from that? And how is that still affecting your life? There was a lot for me that I was like, oh, no, that's totally fine. All good. You know, that's just a part of who I am, am. And it was like, oh, it doesn't have to be. I get to decide that. And so a lot of those messages that were. That are being repeated in our relationships were there from the very beginning. They're Just being told to you over and over and over again, and you get trapped in that cycle and being able to find that and say, okay, I don't actually have to keep believing that lie. I don't have to hold on to that. I don't have to use that as the narrative towards the rest of my life really helps you to be aware. And I always say, once you know better, you can do better. I'm sure I'm not the only one who said that, but I say it all the time.

You got credit. We'll give it to you.

It was me. Yeah, it's great. But that's something that a lot of us, once we see those messages, we start being aware of who is saying them to us. I like to tell that voice to shut up a lot. She's not very nice. And, yeah, oftentimes they sound like our parents. Right? Those things that just kind of stay there with us and being able to find those things and set up boundaries to not just. I always talk about triggers and how often we're like. We end up getting upset at people for coming near our triggers, but also sometimes we throw our trigger at someone and it's like, hey, you did that. It's your fault. I threw it at you, but it's your fault. So I think when you can find those triggers and also realize that it's your responsibility not to just hold it out so everyone bumps into it, but to actually take responsibility and say, I need to fix this. I need to heal myself and figure out how to not allow other people to hurt me in that same way. Put up boundaries, whatever else you need to do, instead of walking around with this trigger that's out there in the open for anyone to bump into, but then also asking your spouse or those who love you to honor that as well and be like, hey, I'm. I'm going to respect that boundary and stay farther away from that trigger so I don't hurt you in the same way that you have already been hurt. So a lot of what we did is healing those traumas and working through that, but then also recognizing what boundaries need to be there. Because you don't have any boundaries. It feels really terrible. Making boundaries you feel like, well, especially coming from my life, I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. You feel really guilty for putting up boundaries. They're meant to help people, but often you've been guilted or hurt because of them, and you feel like they're a weapon for someone else to use against you, not a tool for you to respect yourself. So we spent a lot of time building healthy boundaries in our relationship and how we treat each other, and also boundaries protecting our relationship so that we can continue to move forward and grow together.

Yeah. I've heard someone say that if we're being guilted or shamed from other people because of our boundaries, that's evidence of the need for the boundary. Like, because of their reaction. Like, if they had a really healthy response to, like, oh, I totally understand, and that's fine. And we'll respect. Like, if someone responded that way, that actually would show a lot of health. And you'd probably say, oh, that wasn't needed.

High five. Thank you.

It's the fact that it is uncomfortable and it's creating tension. Like, yeah, that's why you need the boundary. So I really like the way you worded that. And just that imagery of holding our triggers out and just letting people bump into them. I've never heard it said that way. So thank you for that picture, Evelyn, because I think that's helpful for a lot of us, that they can kind of like, oh, I'm triggered. And we deflect that as, like, other people's issue. When I can take responsibility of what are the situations I put myself in, what are the things I'm willing to do or not do that that will allow me to be vulnerable. And there are places we do choose to be exposed and vulnerable in appropriate ways to people that have developed or earned that trust with us. And our. Our triggers, in that sense, are kind of in the open because we feel safe. But in a lot of environments, we. We have to have an awareness of, here's how I stay in a healthy place, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And that's, I think, doing the work you described. So, yeah, really a beautiful image there.

Yeah. So this is. And we love this question because you can do recovery, you can jump into group, you can heal together, and never tell anybody about it. Like, unless, you know. The only people that know are maybe your pastor, who you went to, who then got you in a group, and then the people who are in that group. But that's not all of healing. Like, there's this added layer of getting out and sharing your story and telling people about it. And so what for you helped you get to that point where it's like, you know what? I can't keep this to myself anymore. I know you talked about it at the top of the episode, about sharing it and boosting your followers significantly overnight, but what got you Going to like, okay, I think I need to start doing this.

For the first time, I truly believe that our testimonies have power. I think that the things that we walk through, as hard as they are producers, good things in us, right? We. Perseverance brings so many more great attributes from God and to help in our lives and in our walk with God and strengthen us as we do that. And I think one of the things that we should be doing is sharing our testimony. We're always supposed to be able to be prepared to give an account for the hope that we have. And part of my journey is saying, like, I can still have hope in whatever I walk through, because I've walked through really dark things, and God has always been with me. And part of that is, you know, it brings so much healing to other people. It brings them hope as well and also brings us. I know there's just something beautiful about being able to be open and honest with the people around you and allowing all of your life to be used for God. And, you know, we kind of walk through a stage where we're like, no, no, I'm okay with, like, the shiny things, people knowing, like, the good things, the parts where I look okay, and I didn't say mean things to my husband. Like, let's share those things. Right? And really the best way for God to use us is to allow our entire lives to be transformed, our entire lives to be used for him, for his good and his glory. And I think it's just selfishness, really. When we hold back, we're like, no, no, he can use everything else. But this part, it's the same as being like God. You can have all of my life, but this part where I'm, you know, abusive, I'm going to hold to that and keep that part to myself. And I think it's really important that we allow God to have all of it, because it was his in the beginning. It's. It's already his. Let's just allow him to use us. So I started really on our journey. I started talking with trusted friends, which I think is the way to go. Right? You don't want to just, you know, pearls to swine, share your story with anyone. That just gets you into more trouble. And then from there, we started, you know, sharing with more and more people. I make people feel really uncomfortable at picnics with our church. I talk about our story all the time.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. It's good to hear.

Oh, it's awkward. Awkward, but so Good, right? It's good to share those things. And we're very open in real life with our story. It's a very different journey sharing that online. And with all of the cancel culture and hatred that people love to throw around, what we're saying is countercultural. This is a thing that everybody's like, this is great. It's totally normal and moral and acceptable. Do whatever you want. And they'd rather just ignore all the science that backs up that this is damaging and hurtful. But I think being able to open up first and foremost with trusted people and the world around you, including your church family, because the more that we can shed the shame of our stories, the more power we give them. Right. When we hold the shame, we give that power to control us and to control how much we can share and who we can actually help. I think I would rather know that I didn't miss any opportunities, then look back and say, oh, I missed a lot by holding it to myself, by not sharing it with other people. I could have helped more people if I was open. And I've seen that with other things in my life. I've seen God's power and just me being open about even our infant loss that has helped other people open up about theirs and find help. So I think it's important to share with whenever we feel that nudge. Right?

Yeah.

It's good. Yeah. And I like what you're describing, that when it comes to sharing our story, sometimes there is kind of that ripple effect that we start at that inner circle with those that know us best and that we trust, and as we become comfortable there, it kind of ripples out to, well, now maybe I'm sharing in my small group or I'm sharing in a church setting that feels right. And then over time, getting to the place of being on a podcast or those who write books and all that sort of thing, that for people listening, if you're in the midst of your journey and there's really no one outside of your group that knows, it can be very intimidating to think about telling the world. And that's not necessarily where you start. What would it look like just to go to a friend who's not in group with you and you've not really shared this part of your story and begin to be open. And just like Evelyn is saying here, that's really releasing even more of the shame of your story and bringing you to a place where everywhere you go, you just have the sense, I've got nothing to hide, nothing to prove, nothing to Lose. I get to just be me. And I think whether we're the struggler or the one who's been betrayed, there's an incredible freedom to that of realizing I don't walk into every room, kind of this guarded part of my life that I have to keep from others until you get there. It's like, oh, this is a nice way to live. And that's what I hear you describing, Evelyn. Oh, go ahead.

I was going to say there's a freedom in that. And I think that even when I've shared with trusted friends that maybe did or didn't struggle, it still encouraged them to have that conversation with their spouse. I think a lot of people are like, me, when we first got married, when we're like, I just trusted that it'd be fine. Like, I know tons of women who just never ask. They've never asked their spouse if they struggle. They're like, oh, I actually don't want to know that. Like, let's just stay away from that part. And I think it's. It's encouraged friends in the past to actually have those conversations, and then they've also found out because of it, and it brought light to a situation that otherwise wouldn't have been shined upon. And I think that even that just encouraging them to be brave enough to ask and question their spouse instead of just choosing to ignore it. Right. It's easier to turn a blind eye, but change happens when we address it.

Yeah.

I think one of the things too with this, this part is we want or we hope that when we do share our story, that our friends just can be like, oh, my gosh, thank you so much for sharing. Like. Like, I've been waiting for someone to say something, and like, sometimes that happens totally depending on where someone at is in their journey. But you might get like, a really weird response from someone where someone's just like, oh, okay, in a long pause, and then you talk about something else. And to not be deterred by that, Like, I found that when you do have those conversations, more often than not, those people, maybe a week, two, maybe a month later will come back and just be like, you know what? I've been thinking about what you said, and I'm just so thankful. And it's like, you don't try to recreate that situation. It's almost. You just plant the seed and you just trust that if. If that's going to minister to them and God's going to use it, that they'll come back around and have that conversation. So don't be deterred by someone who's just like, oh, cool, high five. Okay, let's go, you know, and do something else, because that tends to happen.

Yeah, Yeah. I remember in our own story, you know, I'd shared with my church, we did this big weekend, like, where I disclosed and started groups. And it was just this amazing kind of moment God used. And I would still have, like several years later, a guy come into my office and eventually be like, well, you know, I was there that first Sunday you shared, like three years ago. And I. And they'll talk about how God actually started something in them that weekend, but they weren't ready to do anything with it. And I think that's what we have to have confidence with as we share our stories and start to be open. Like, in that moment, there might be nothing, but it's a seed and it's something that God is beginning to use. And so tell us a little bit more about that in your life, Evelyn, you talked about being a life coach, but how else is God using you to help others now with your story and in this area?

Well, everything I do on Instagram has suddenly shifted towards talking about pornography and pornography addiction online with everybody who is willing to listen and is looking for help. So the biggest thing that I do on there is I try to share tools and resources and just help. There are so many women who are just seeking help. And I remember being in a place where I didn't have answers. I didn't have anyone to encourage or come alongside, and I didn't have anyone who was like, hey, actually, like, maybe don't let them do that in your life. Maybe don't let them treat you that way. So I've been honored to be put in a place where I'm having women ask questions and, like, boldly, all sorts of different questions that I'm sometimes shocked to answer, but I think it's important. And, yeah, just being able to come alongside those kinds of people as they're struggling. And, yeah, just helping them however I can. I help women with coaching one on one and all sorts of things like that. I also offer workshops where we talk through different things and kind of try to dig through them a bit deeper. And those have been really fun because I love teaching and helping like that. So anything that I can do to provide those resources and. And guidance where I can. And like you guys said, I direct them to you a lot.

Thank you.

Yeah, totally annoying. But being able to show them like, there is help out there. There are people who have resources for you, it's not. It's not the same as what I walked through. There's so much more out there. And sadly, there's a lot of resources that blame the women. We've read so many that were just like, oh, that's not helping. That's making things worse. Let's add to my shame and my guilt and, you know, ones that tell us we're just sexual receptacles to be used for the men and all sorts of things like, that's just not what should be being taught. And thankfully, things are changing and there is so many more fantastic tools out there. So being able to guide them to that and help them to not feel so alone. Right. Like, my community is, I guess, nearing 5,000 women all, like, it's almost entirely women looking for help and trying to heal traumas and betrayals and grow in self worth and all of those things. And I think that being. Honestly, even having 10 women in a room where we can talk about this is amazing. But being able to talk to so many women on such a regular basis has been a huge blessing. And just praying that God uses it in any way that he can. Yeah.

And it seems like he already is. So just keep doing what you're doing. It's. Yeah, I think it's so helpful. One of the things comes to mind is just the idea of you're guiding women through the process you've already been through. And so, I mean, I just. I think there's a lot of power to that. I always go back to Second Corinthians. I mean, that's, you know, like how God comforts us is how we can comfort other people. And I stupidly, I've coined it as like our superpower. Like, it becomes our superpower. It's the thing we can do. The one thing we can share about bring that might be unique to us, but we find out actually isn't unique and can help so many people. As people are listening to this, Evelyn, they can be all over the map. But think of women who have experienced betrayal, trauma. Maybe they're early on in their story. Maybe they've already had that discovery but aren't really sure what the next steps are. What kind of encouragements, just based on your story and experience, would you give to our listeners?

Well, I remember being there and feeling like I was already drowning. And then someone just kept like, handing me rocks. And as you go through that, you feel like it's hopeless. You're in them. You can't see shore, you can't see Anything but the pain and the waves that are just crushing you. And just. I want to give hope that there is joy and comfort in that. And as you move through it, as you walk through the entire painful, horrible journey, there is so much good on the other side. And it is worth every single tear and struggle and painful argument that is still worth having and every, you know, ounce of hard work that you put into fighting for your marriage and for your relationship, and not just for those parts, but for yourself as well. Fighting for yourself and building that self worth, building, you know, the respect that you actually deserve to have and being able to love yourself through that, I think is incredibly important. And I think that just seeing that there is hope and there is people out there in boats wanting to help you, wanting to throw you a life wrap when they can, you're not entirely alone. And sadly, if you could see the ocean that you feel like you're drowning in, there's a heck of a lot of other people out there too, doing the same thing. So, yeah, just that hope that you're not alone and that there is better on the other side. I think, honestly, our relationship now is the best it's ever been. I mean, I hate to say it, but we're blessed to have walked through what we walked through. I never wanted to walk through this. I would not wish this on anyone. But at the same time, God is still using it, and we're still able to heal and grow because of what we walk through. And I think, like you said, it becomes our superpower and we're able to use it. If we let God, it is better.

Yeah. So awesome. We've heard that many times. You know, as people say, it's maybe the worst thing that ever happened to us, but we wouldn't trade it for anything because it got us to where we are now. And where we are now is a really good place. And so there is that hope, there is that encouragement on the other side. And we're just so grateful that you are one of those voices saying, we not only survived it, we're on the other side thriving, and there's hope for you. So keep up your posts and your feed and all the stuff you do, do it well and go for it, because like you said, sadly, there are a lot of people drowning out there. And we want you to be a voice. And so we hope being on the podcast today is a part of just continuing to grow your ability to help people. And so thanks for doing that.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah. So how can how do people keep up with you? Like, where can they go?

I'm at hey Evelyn James on Instagram. That's where I am almost every day, answering questions and trying to share information and help any way I can. That's the best place to find me. I'm also on Pinterest at the same name at hey Evelyn James. And yeah, I have a website, too, but again, I spend almost all of my time on Instagram. So that's where.

That's another episode we'll have with Evelyn where we talk to her about her issues with social media being on Instagram all the time. Well, Evelyn, we know this and, like, we've heard so many stories, and telling our story is just so powerful and so meaningful and gives voice to other people. And we've experienced that a lot as people share their stories. Someone hears it and it's like, that's me. They're talking about my story. And it really gives people those next steps. It shows them the stones across the river that they can walk through this really difficult journey. So, as you can hear, hope is very, very possible and that thriving is really, really possible in your marriage. And so we just appreciate what you're doing, the work that you have done through your own healing with your husband, what you're doing now with your family, and then how you're reaching out and helping other women. It's just amazing. And thanks for being with us today.

Thanks so much.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma. And lastly, never stop being healthy.