212 - 7 Keys to Understanding Betrayal Trauma

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal, and relationship issues. Happy Tuesday, or whatever day it is. You listen. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 212, which makes me want to sing Peaches and Cream. Sorry. Okay. Of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host and very confused. Next, Dumbbell. As you wish. What a. What a painful scene.

Oh, my sweet Wesley. What have I done?

So that scene. Okay, so. Almost made a joke about being uncultured and not seeing that movie. That is from the Princess Bride.

It is. It is very much so. Well done.

And do you. I mean, like, I feel like if you haven't seen it, like, I don't want to say, you know who Wesley is.

It's been out for, like, 40 years. If you haven't seen it. I know. I was at church last week. The pastor brought up. He's, you know, he's talking about the Christmas Carol.

Yeah.

And he said, I'm sorry if I just gave away the ending, but it's been out for, like, 180 years. And if you haven't read it, that's on you.

That's on you.

So if you give away the ending to a movie from 40 years ago, I. I think that's on them.

You know, I'll tell you. I'll tell you this right now. So we're watching. We've watched the first Star wars movie with Brady on his fourth birthday, which, I mean, if you're going to judge me, that's fine, do it. But we're waiting until his fifth birthday to watch Empire Strikes Back with the Snow Monster on Hoth. Like, it's probably appropriate. Appropriate to wait. I mean, but we've been reading all these Star wars books, like, both, like Lego, you know, Lego Star wars, and then also these other ones that keep saying Darth Vader is Luke's father. And I'm like, you're ruining one of the greatest cinematic reveals of all time. And so by the time we watch Empire Strikes Back and that happens, so it'll be like, oh, yeah, I know.

That's what the book said.

Jerks. Okay, so to the reason why you say, as you wish, we had Heather Kolb, our neuroscience expert content manager, and then also Jen Howey, who is our group's administrator on today, to talk about seven keys to understanding betrayal trauma.

Yes. In the movie the Princess Bride, Princess Buttercup has experienced a lot of trauma. And, you know, when someone triggers or provokes that trauma. There's a ton of anger there. And so she shoves Wesley down the hill, not realizing it's Wesley. And I think of that scene because when there is infidelity in a relationship, and as we bring up, that could be just a thought looking at pornography online or actual physical relationships and everything in between, it's traumatic, it's painful, it creates anger. And sometimes when unaddressed, it can come out in really strange or difficult ways. And so I think the purpose of this podcast and the ebook that we've put out is to just help spouses start to get a framework of what's happening in Betrayal Trauma and what steps can I take to begin to process and deal with this really challenging situation in my life.

Yep. And as you mentioned, we do have a free ebook on our website if you go to PureDesire.org seven keys. That is the number seven keys. And you can download that ebook for free. All right. Today's episode is sponsored by our friends at Bethesda Workshops. They're located in Nashville, Tennessee. I so want to go there. Please invite me and Bethesda Workshops provides short term Christian based clinical workshops for people that are just affected by sexual addiction. It's led by certified sexual addiction therapists. Their four day workshops are for partners of sex addicts, male and female sex addicts, couples and teens. And fees for these cover lodging, meals and transportation to and from the airport. Payment plans and limited scholarships are available. Bethesda is one of our sponsors for our upcoming Pure Desire Summit September 10 and 11 online or in person at Harvest Christian Church in Troutdale, Oregon. For more information on Bethesda Workshops and to register, you can visit Bethesda workshops.org we'll keep that in the show notes as well and you can jumpstart your healing process with them. Few more things. Subscribe to the podcast, you can follow us on social media. And also these full episodes are now up on YouTube. And now let's get into our seven keys to understanding Betrayal Trauma with Jen Howey and Heather Kolb. Heather, Jen, thanks for being with us.

Thanks for having us.

Yeah, thanks, Jinx.

Okay. Such a bad start. Okay, so, okay, a couple things as we get into this episode. So we have just recently released a free ebook now on our website called the seven Keys to Understanding Betrayal Trauma. And I think this is a really, really meaningful and powerful resource that we want to give to as many people as we can. But what's great is that we have different audiences on different mediums. And so with this, with the Podcast we wanted to also talk about what we talk in this ebook because it is really important to understand that betrayal trauma is real. And it is something that a lot of people experience, both men and women specifically. In our context, betrayal trauma comes from someone who's in a relationship with an addict or someone who has brokenness. And so we want to address that and talk about it. And we also want this episode to be something that is helpful for people who. Maybe you have a friend who's going through something like this and you just want to give them information about it. That's what we're after today. So getting into it, I know for me personally, I don't believe to a certain degree I've not actually experienced betrayal trauma before. And so I think for some of us this is a brand new, I guess, way to describe it or a brand new label. And so let's just start with key number one. And in this, let's explain what we're talking about. But the first key that we see to really understanding betrayal trauma is understanding the fact that betrayal trauma is real.

Yeah, and that's a great point. And it's really important, I think, because trauma, if you just look at the word trauma and, and define that it's an extremely intense event that happens to a person and it's distressing and it really does extreme damage to them. But if you look at it then and attach the word betrayal to it, then you're saying that I've experienced betrayal and that act in and of itself now has created this ripple effect of trauma that I'm experiencing. And so that I think is at its core of, when we talk in this context of what betrayal trauma looks like for a spouse who's betrayed, who has experienced sexual betrayal in their marriage.

So like sexual betrayal, meaning what?

Well, I mean, sexual betrayal can really. It's a very actual personal description, if you will, because for, you know, for some people in group or just even experiencing this, betrayal can look when, like when I'm. When a spouse will look at pornography and rather than looking at his wife and engaging in masturbation and things like that that are, that are, that don't include his wife, but it can also extend to those who are experiencing infidelity. And so it's a wide range. And while those are not subjective experiences, the how we receive it is subjective because what you can experience and betrayal, sexual betrayal versus what I can experience in sexual betrayal can be very different. And so what you may be able to handle and what I may be able to handle can look very different. There's a really great picture on the Internet and I love this picture. It's two dogs. Have you seen it? It's, it's a yellow lab and then it's a little shorter white dog. And they've both been in the mud. And the little dog has the mud up to here, up to his chest. And the bigger dog only has mud up to like his first joint. And the question is, how deep is the mud? And the answer is it depends on who you ask. So when it comes to sexual betrayal, it depends on who you ask. And so all of it is valid. It's honestly the common denominator that we as that have been on the receiving end of that. It's, it's the common denominator. The pain of it. How we process doesn't really, I don't want to say it doesn't matter to what length you've been betrayed. It does matter. And that's kind of the whole point. That is where we actually all connect and group. We don't, our stories don't have to necessarily have to have the same experience totally, but the betrayal and the residual from that does.

Yeah, the way that trauma will be experienced, person to person is different. And so we don't want to assume, well, if, if this activity happened in your marriage, well, you'll have this kind of trauma. And if only this happened, you'll only have this. Because I think that's a trap. People get caught up in that. Our culture still has and even within church culture some mindsets of like, well, this is something all guys do, or pornography is so common and what a spouse can hear out of that is, well, you shouldn't be that hurt or you shouldn't feel that offended. Like, that's really not fair to say to anyone because that experience of trauma, I think of what Gabor Matei says about trauma, that trauma isn't what happens to you, it's what happens inside of you because of what happens to you. And so what happens to different people can vary a lot, just as the way they experience trauma will vary. And so what we're trying to focus on in this episode is to really kind of face down, I think what may be some false stereotypes about trauma, that, well, you shouldn't feel trauma unless you know, you find out your spouse was cheating on you with your friend, well, then that's trauma. But you know, if you just find out there's porn on their phone or that they've been engaged in fantasy, like, well, what's the Big deal. And the trauma experience is more the internal sense of what's wrong with me? Why am I not enough? What did I do wrong? How do I fix it? The fear of being hurt, you know, worse, what else is going to happen? Like, all of that is trauma. And I think the point of key number one is to say to a spouse in a relationship, if anything on that spectrum of unwanted sexual behavior has been happening within the relationship, yes, you've experienced some level of betrayal trauma. And even if for you it's. It feels minor, it's worth looking at and acknowledging. And for many listening, they would say, well, it's been pretty major, and we just want to validate that experience because it's a part of how we were designed as relational beings, that in that marriage relationship, when there's not faithfulness of thought or action, it's traumatic, and we need to just recognize that.

I think, too, one of the things that we. When we hear the word trauma, we think of, like, PTSD is a really easy one, and we think of the manifestations of that. But not all manifestations of experiencing trauma are the same. Like, someone can internally isolate and pull away from relationships, but people aren't necessarily gonna notice that there isn't this, like, outward action or thing that this person's doing where another person can experience the same kind of trauma and go out and party and go on benders. And people see them and they're like, oh, clearly they've experienced trauma. And so I think that even in that, because that was the point I wanted to make, too, is that it's real whether, you know it's real or not. And it's real whether you can see the effects of it or not. Because sometimes a lot of that. What you're saying is going on inside.

Yeah. And I think that, too, with that, that so many spouses, they just don't know how to process it, so they kind of throw a blanket over it and they go on with their life. And it could be several months later or even years later that it finally catches up to them and hits them, and. And then what do they do? And so it really is so different based on the experience.

Yeah, well. And we need to be willing to recognize there may be betrayal trauma, even if. And maybe especially when we've had a spouse say that we shouldn't be hurt. Because I look at my own story, and I was not attempting to gaslight my wife, but I just. I had this experience of. I've been struggling with pornography since I was a teenager. I'M trying really hard to kick it. I don't understand why you're so upset. And so I would say things to her like, well, if you really understood it like I did, you shouldn't feel hurt or upset. And as I look back, now that we're in a very different place, it's like, I was not helping her. And really, she needed to hear my words and go, okay, I know you feel that way, but that's not reality. And so I wanted to bring that up for listeners that even if you have someone in your life who's saying, oh, here's why you shouldn't feel that hurt, that's not the measure of whether or not there's trauma. That if you're experiencing pain, fear, regret, you know, all these things that we would talk about as being traumatic, it's real. And don't let someone else tell you you shouldn't be experiencing something that you know is happening for you. So, yeah, that's. Yeah, that's where we needed to start to say, this is real. It's something spouses experience and needs to be, something that can be faced. And so that leads into the second key, which is that you are not alone. Why is this an important key in understanding betrayal trauma?

I think we've. This was. This has been a great segue because we do feel alone. Because often because of what we're experiencing, it feels separate. Because we're experiencing it, it feels more intense than what I see someone across the room experiencing. We have this a lot in group as well. You know, women will come in and be like, oh, my husband's only doing this and this. I just don't. I don't really feel like I really belong here. So even in group, we can sometimes even feel alone. And our goal in group is really to communicate. You are, in fact, not alone. Everybody here is experiencing and sharing what is going on internally inside of them. And again, that's where that common denominator is. We are not alone. We are in community. And the more we talk about what we're experiencing, the more we can start to learn from one another and glean from one another and truly learn that we're not alone in proximity to one another. But even when it comes to our faith and just this healing process, that there is such a significant support system that is in place. And that's why group is so important, because we need to know that we're not doing this alone. And that's one of the greatest tools that the enemy has just to convince us that we're alone. Because if he can convince us that we're alone, we're more likely to isolate. And the more we are likely to isolate, the more he'll get in there and start to feed on those light lies and feed on those fears. So, friends, you're not alone, and the Lord is here to bring you in and help heal the whole. We're broken in relationships, and we're healed in relationships. So a key factor to healing is really understanding that while my story may not look like someone else's, it doesn't disqualify me or even elevate me above anyone else's story. It's a real place where we can.

Connect and even to your idea, that picture right on the Internet. Like, which dog's muddy? Both. Like, both are muddy. They both have had the same experience, even though the effects are different, you know, but that doesn't mean that one person has experienced something that's unique and the other something that's unique. They both experience the same thing.

Yes.

I think it can be really hard, too, for women in the church, you know, or for even anybody, men and women in the church, because there's a part I remember feeling this way that, well, I can't really tell people because, you know, then if somehow that means I'm slandering my spouse or I can't tell people because I don't really even have all the information, and so I don't really know what I'm telling them. It just seems like, you know, and so I think that that was especially isolating to just know, who can I tell? What can I tell? Is this biblical? Am I sinning if I tell somebody what I know to be true about my relationship? And so I think that those pieces of it really, I don't know, play into the enemy's plan to keep us isolated and alone and. And thinking that nobody else could ever understand what we're going through.

Yeah, one of. If you think of the flip side of it, how in most churches and families today, sexuality and sexual brokenness and our struggles are not something that are discussed openly. And so the one who is struggling, that spouse is also feeling like I'm. I feel like I'm the only one here that struggles. I can't really talk about it. So if the struggler feels that way, how much more will the spouse who's being wounded feel the same way as well? So in some ways, changing this topic goes hand in glove with the idea of just in our homes and in our churches, how do we become safe Places to talk about the struggle and the sexual brokenness. Because as that becomes more and more normalized, that, hey, we deal with this, then we can bring in the other half as well to say, and now we need to help the spouses that have been feeling wounded and hurt and betrayed. And when both can be addressed, then that. That isolation gets broken for everyone. So kind of a. Both and of we need to help create environments where these things are talked about, both for the struggler and the betrayed and wounded spouses.

Yeah.

And I think a reason that we. We think we're. I mean, we don't hear anybody talking about this, and we're experiencing this and it's really painful. We don't know what to do with it. And then as we isolate and feel alone and go deeper and deeper, then we start to not only hear that lie that you're alone, but then that's what's so interesting is that we're in those dark places. That's when other lies just start to get like, that's a dump truck of lies that we hear. And one of them that we hear is the third key is that it is your fault. It is your fault as the betrayed spouse. And so the third key is the opposite of that, is that the addiction is not about you. So let's talk about that.

Yeah, that's a great one. Because I think that there's a lot of people out there that think that if my spouse struggles with any form of unwanted sexual behavior, that it's about sex and it's not about sex. It's never going to be about sex. It's always going to be about their, really, their. Their choice of medicating their pain. What did they go to? They went to pornography or they went to something else instead of going to food or whatever, but it, but it isn't about the spouse. And even when you look at the way that most people who struggle with sex addiction, that they got hooked on porn or whatever it was that they were doing when they were kids way before. And so, yeah, and they brought it into the relationship. And, and, but you can, I think really, you can tell a betrayed spouse all of these things, but yet the way that it makes them feel is that I'm not good enough, I wasn't enough, that I couldn't provide what my husband needed. And so. And so that's why they went to seek out porn. And I think that it's probably one of the hardest barriers to break for a betrayed spouse.

And even, and even when some of the. Of well, women in our case, you know, can come to terms that it's not our fault. We still somehow often get the message that it's a responsibility to step in and fix it. I go, you know, buy lingerie or engage, initiate, do these things.

But that's like a. That's like a baseline truth that gets communicated in so many different churches. Sure. And I'm not. This is not just to bash churches, but it's like it is. And you get messages like it's the wife's job to make the man a man. It's not the man's responsibility to, like, you know, become a man and grow and mature. But it's like once you get married, then your wife will mature. Like there are messages like that, which there's like a nugget of truth in there. But I think that those kind of messages just reinforce what you're talking about.

Yes. And because while I may cognitively know that I'm not the problem, there is this message that, you know, a powerful woman will get her man back, and a powerful woman will step into this role, and it's a lie. A powerful woman is going to engage in healing. That's what a powerful woman is going to do. Yeah.

One who draws boundaries and is willing to express their needs.

Right.

Yeah.

But it can initially, when you're in the very beginning of this process, feel incredibly empowering. But it often will leave women feeling empty because it becomes fruitless, because we're still medicating the issue rather than dealing with it.

Yeah. And I can hear for some listeners when they hear this key, you know, that the addiction is not about you. Something in them is saying, but it sure feels like it is. And that is the reality that it certainly impacts you. And when we say the addiction isn't about you, we're not in any way saying that you shouldn't care or shouldn't feel hurt by it or should just be able to distance yourself. Oh, it's not about me. And now I'm okay. That's not what we're trying to say that what we're trying to help you recognize is you're not the source of this problem, that this is a brain problem. This is a development problem. And now in marriage or, you know, later in life, it has become a relationship problem that you are impacted by, but you didn't cause or create the brain or the development problem. And so for you to also think to what you were bringing up, Jen, that you feel like you can fix it is also not going to be helpful. Because you can work on the relationship dynamics. And I think that's something. We encourage betrayed spouses to recognize that while they cannot fix the addiction or that root problem, there are things within the relationship that we can address that might help create a better environment, like having healthy boundaries and open communication and learning how to have a kind of relationship where both spouses feel valued, seen, heard, cared. I mean, all those things help, but we don't ever want to veer into that category of thinking, well, if I just do all this well enough, then they'll be better. Because it's not addressing those underlying root.

Issues and it's not something that you just come up with by yourself. There are messages that we get from people all the time about this. And I mean, people who are so well meaning and so want to help us through this will just be like, well, have you tried putting on makeup or making sure the kitchen's clean when they get home? Because this can be on both sides. It's not just for women. It can be both. But even those messages just reinforce this. Okay, so it's my responsibility. I don't know if you've tried changing someone else. It doesn't work. Like, I've tried. I have tried for. Just kidding. But I'm not kidding. I have tried to change people, but, like, changing ourselves is hard enough. And that's the best thing you can do is focus on your own boundaries, your own voice, your own needs, and your own healing. And that is going to be a part of the solution. That is not the solution. The solution is them processing through their hurts, their wounds, how it's manifesting, what's motivating the behavior. But you can be a part of the solution in that.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the fourth key may seem a little self evident, but I think it's important that we recognize it, that with betrayal trauma, it creates an emotional roller coaster. So let's talk about that. How is betrayal trauma an emotional roller coaster?

Not the fun kind.

Well, I was just thinking, you ever go on the Internet and see those roller coaster videos where there's been a camera attached and. And people are being slung into the air or, you know, whatever those, you know, rides are, and people are freaking out and we're all laughing at them, right? Because it's funny. It's not funny. This would be the opposite of funny. This emotional roller coaster that I was personally on was quite scary for me and for my husband because I literally thought I could potentially go crazy. And that was always in the back of my mind because the Emotional instability that was inside my head at all times. I didn't know which direction my heart and my mind and my actions were going to go. So the emotional rollercoaster I was on was at times healthy and steady and okay. And then other times, out of nowhere, something would trigger it and I'd just be going downhill really, really fast. And boy, do Dan and I have stories about this one. And there was one moment in the car where it literally SC emotions scared him and it scared me, too. And it was an indicator of the amount of pressure and trauma that I was under and that our marriage was under. And so there's a lot of patience that has to go. Go into recovering from the emotional roller coaster, not just with your spouse, but within yourself and understanding. First of all, if you're experiencing anything that is as up and down as I experience, you really do want to reach out to a professional and get some help in navigating that. But the emotional roller coaster requires so much grace for your spouse, but also for yourself and understanding that what you're going through is trauma. You're not defective. You. Yeah, you're. It's okay to be where you are. It's appropriate. It's actually a pretty good sign. Pain is often a sign. It's. It's information. And it's okay to be receiving that information. We just need to make sure that we take it to a place where someone can help diagnose that and help you through it.

Yeah, that is so good. I think one of the things that makes it really scary for people is the unpredictability of their emotions that you can, like you said, you can be doing well and steady and then all of a sudden feel such rage that you've never felt before, ever. And then feel like you're so broken and bawling for days and it goes back and forth and there doesn't even seem to be a reprieve at any. And so I agree, though, that it's a good place to be. Get some help, but don't stuff those feelings down because they're going to come out whether you can control when they come out or not. And so it really, I think, is part of the process.

Yeah.

So note to the listener, that's on the other side of this equation. If you're watching your spouse go through this roller coaster, the question you should never ask is, what is wrong with you? I made that mistake in our ten year. Our ten year journey, you know, because I would feel like, you know, I would. In our pattern of the Binge purge. I would go to my wife, I'd confess, there'd be tears that, you know, we'd work it through. And that day or two period would be super intense. And then for me, you know, the addict, I've moved on. Like, oh, man, thank goodness. Yeah, this is so much better. You know, if a few days later, she was super angry or emotional or down or it's like, well, what? Like, we dealt with that and not realizing how. I was just really heaping on shame and heaping on, in a sense, more trauma for her. So if. If you're the other part of that equation, I think it's important for us as well to recognize this is going to be a roller coaster. And it may last longer than I want it to. Like, I want my spouse to get off, and that's another one we're going to get to in a little bit here. But I may want my spouse to get off that roller coaster and just, like, be on this nice, smooth upward trajectory. It's not going to look like that. And I think if. If as the struggler or the addict or the one that has caused that trauma, we're just ready for that y, it can help us in a, I think, appropriate way, absorb some of that emotional energy and not feel like we have to fix it, defend ourselves, explain it away. Just, like, let them experience it. And I think asking a question like, what do you need from me? Because they may need you to go away, and that's appropriate. They may need you to come close and to just be with them, and that would be appropriate.

Yeah.

But whatever it is they need, it's kind of letting them call the shots. That would be a far better question than what's wrong with you. So just put that in your head. What do you need from me? Or how can I help? And not what's wrong with you?

And I'm going to piggyback on that because Dan would ask me, what do you need from me? And I'd be like, I need you.

To not cheat on me.

Yeah, I need you to be faithful. And what I need. And I couldn't pinpoint that. I needed space. I couldn't necessarily pinpoint. So be patient with this process. I think it's really important to understand that identifying a need, what I need is to not be crazy inside my head right now. And I don't know what that means. So I think also to reiterate, it seems kind of obvious, folks, but it's not so obvious to some of us that a good thing to not say to your spouse is, you're overreacting. You're really overreacting right now.

I feel like we should be past this by now. As you guys have been talking about, I'm thinking, like, same situation from both perspectives. If you were to force someone off of a roller coaster while it's still going, that's not going to end well for that person. If you pull that lever and their, like, strap goes off and they fly like they're gonna die, it's not gonna end well. The same thing's true if you're the one in the roller coaster. Like, don't take it. Like, roller coasters lock you in and don't let you get out for a reason. And so, like, maybe adopt that principle. Like, if you're on the roller coaster, it's not a roller coaster that will go on forever. If you take steps and if you're able to process it, the roller coaster will end. And I mean, it's funny. What's coming to mind, too, is I remember a conversation we had on an airplane. I think Ashley Jameson is the one who said this, that the pace of recovery is always in the court of the betrayed spouse. So the healing will only go at the pace of the betrayed spouse. And so that roller coaster has got to finish. You've got to ride the roller coaster to the end. And there are things you can do. You know, there are definitely things you can do. It's not just something you have to ride out, so to speak, passively. But, yeah, I just. I like everything everyone's saying here. So that, I mean, that leads into the fifth one, and this is one that I feel like I'm just going to say the key and then full stop, and then we'll talk about it. Because this is a truth that so many people need to hear. Not just with this, but in general, but especially with this, is that boundaries are good. So let's talk about that. Okay. Why is it important to know that boundaries are good when understanding betrayal, trauma?

So I think that this is one of those situations where when, I mean, if you've been in this situation and discovery happens and your world becomes something that you never knew it was, that you feel like you've lost all control of everything that you ever thought was true. And what boundaries do for people is that they give us that control back. Is that when we have boundaries, then it's like, I get to decide now what I'm gonna do with my time. I get to decide whether or not I need space now. And I think that boundaries is also what helps us to recognize our needs in the moment. And so I think that it's important to not only have somebody that you can work with if you're new to betrayal trauma, that you. Either in your group or with a counselor, that you have somebody who. Who just talks through what boundaries could look like. Because I also think that for a lot of people, that this is probably the first time where they'll ever feel empowered to say no to something. And. And just to be able to say.

Liberating when you first get it, it.

Is so liberating, right, To. To just be able to say, yes, I'm going to do this because this is healthy for me, and it's healthy for me, and a lot of reasons, but I'm gonna say no to this thing, which is, okay, I get to say no, because this would probably be harmful to me right now. And so just, even those type of boundaries is so empowering. And I think that it's important, too, to recognize that boundaries are always for us. Boundaries are not necessarily to keep other people away or build a wall, but they're to keep us safe. Because when all of this happens, when discovery happens, that's one of the first things that goes, is our safety. And we don't feel safe in the world. That once was our most treasured thing, and now none of it is real. And so just with boundaries and building back, safety for us is huge.

And I don't know who said it, but I've heard the phrase that no is a complete sentence. Yes, like, yes, that, that. That'll preach. Like, yeah, think about that for a second. Get back to me. But no is a full sentence, and that's okay.

I think a lot of times the betrayed spouse can often feel like, I need to create. You need to do this and create boundaries, and that. That pushes natural consequences onto someone else. So natural consequences are important. But boundaries really isn't about being punitive toward the person that's hurting you, but really more about validating your needs, identifying your needs, and drawing parameters around those needs, saying, these are my needs. You can choose to respect those needs or you can choose to not respect them. And if you choose to not respect this need of mine, this is going to be my next action step. Not, you're going to have to do this, and you're going to have to do this, and you're going to have to do this.

So someone making up for all the things that they necessarily have done, and.

Sometimes we run into that, and so just Something to be aware of, that the boundaries are meant to really help us start to identify and validate our experiences and what our needs currently are. And so it can be tricky. It can be a narrow path to walk because we do want natural consequences to be a part of this healing process.

They have to be.

They do. They do. So there is a fine line between being punitive and also drawing boundaries that validate your own personal experience and keep love in, you know. So it can be tricky.

Yeah, I know. For my wife, she described the experience in kind of those staggered disclosure years of, like, falling into a bottomless pit and not knowing where the bottom was. And so for us, that recovery action plan is a tool that we have that was very, very crucial, that really defined for both her and me, a lot of what my wife's boundaries were and what were the points or places at which I had committed to either be honest with her about an activity or that we had both agreed on some levels of behavior, just in terms of how I was using my phone, computer, the Internet, tv, et cetera, that. Just like you were saying, Heather, that created that, I think, safety net for her to feel like while we were still in the midst of some of those early recovery days, while she didn't have all the tools yet or know all the story, we hadn't done our full disclosure, like, she knew enough to feel like she. She wasn't falling anymore. It's like, okay, at least I'm standing on something stable. And I know there's a lot of work to do, but. But the things that I need to know are true or not. I know. And. And we have some plans in place of what to do if. If there's a relapse or there's something that goes sideways. So it's not just, you know, heading back into that free fall. So I. I think again, for both sides of this equation, both the betrayed spouse and the one who's been struggling or addicted, it's a willingness to enter into that. Not, as you were saying, Jen, not because of punitive or show that you're going to make it up to them kind of ideas, but so that your focus is on moving forward to say, how can we rebuild? And you can't rebuild if one of the spouses just feels that there is no safety, that there's nothing they can trust. And so for the struggling spouse, that can feel punitive, it can feel restrictive, it can feel like, well, wait a minute. But I think that really is a perspective choice we need to make that if my Perspective is on what I'm losing, then it does like, well, how come I can't do all these things? But if my perspective is on the marriage and the relationship and my spouse and what will restore our trust, like, oh, these things are worth it. You know, the last thing I'll say, I heard myself in my story and I'll hear a lot of people say when they're in the midst of discovery and all this is kind of coming out in a marriage, like, I'll do anything to fix it, you know, whatever it takes. But then when there starts to be boundaries, that spouse who just said, I'll do whatever it takes, like, whoa, whoa. And I remember at one point my wife saying to me, I thought you said you would do whatever it takes. And it was like, oh, okay, well, if this is what it takes, let's do it.

Right.

If that helps you. So my phrase became, if that helps you feel safe, I'll do it.

Yeah.

And that perspective was so, so crucial.

Which is a recovery version of as you wish. Yeah, I like that.

I like that. Yeah.

And I like, I think of someone who's listening, who is the addicted spouse or the struggling spouse. What can you practically do on the recovery journey? Respect boundaries. There you go. Like respect boundaries. And what's great is if you start that habit now, if and when your relationship does restore, that's going to set a beautiful trajectory for the rest of your relationship because that's going to be something, you're going to be able to set some boundaries with unhealthy aspects of your life or unhealthy relationships. But also your relationship with your spouse is going to be better if you can respect boundaries. That's a really practical thing you can do.

Yeah.

So the sixth key for understanding betrayal trauma is to recognize self care is important. How can we practice self care when it comes to betrayal trauma?

So I know for a fact that Trevor is good at self care, but in all the right ways. He. I myself am not as good at.

Self care, but does mine come with like a certificate? Because I have not gotten one yet.

I'm working on it. Okay. But so for those of us that actually struggle in this area, it's important to really be able to connect with, with people who do it well. Just like, you know, we would have a mentor in any given situation where we want to grow. Having someone in our lives who exhibits healthy self care behavior is important because some of us have a really hard time with it. I struggle with, I feel guilty. I don't have time it would take me so long just to figure out what I want. Um, there's, there's this underlying narrative in my head, maybe laced with some shame. It could be a whole long list of reasons why I struggle with self care. Maybe I just don't. Maybe I'm struggling with my value because my values, let's be honest, my value has been attacked quite a bit right by the enemy, by my spouse, by myself. So my, my ability to even see my value and make myself consider myself to be worthy of having 15 minutes to myself can actually be quite difficult. And, but it's super important because we really are working, all of us, whether you are the betrayed spouse and in this case that's what we're referring to. But even, or, or the spouse that's struggling. Identifying self care in our lives can help us connect with God and, and with the, and with the Holy Spirit within us. We'll learn more about ourselves. And when we do that, we are more ready to be available to be in relationship with others as well.

Yeah, self care. I agree that sometimes it's hard to come up with what can I do? Or having different options. And I think especially for moms or moms with young kids, I mean, you don't have an extra 15 minutes in your day to do anything else. And so it can be really tough. But in this context, when you've experienced betrayal, one of the things that's so important about self care is that it gives you the time and the tools that you need to calm your brain or to have a strategy to calm your brain. Because even once you start putting self care practices in place, something's going to happen and you're going to feel triggered and so that you don't go back to that crazy place again. Your self care tools and what you learn to calm yourself and soothe yourself, those are going to be the things that help get you through this next episode, whatever it looks like. And so I think that that's really important, a betrayed spouse, because even after discovery, I mean, I would love to say that that's it and there's nothing more, but that's rarely ever the case. And so you're going to feel triggered and then triggered and then triggered or something's going to happen. And when life goes sideways, having just this way that you care for yourself, that like you said, you value yourself so much that, that you recognize that this is important for you for all areas of health in your life and it's really so that you can be proactive in facing what's coming down the road.

Yeah. I think it's to recognize that whether the marriage makes it or not, you know, whether my spouse chooses to enter into recovery or not, at the end of the day, what I'm going to be left with is me. And what version of me do I want to live with? Do I want to live with a version of me that is stuck in the pain, the anger, the bitterness, the regret? Because that happens. I mean, we've seen examples of that around us, I'm sure. Or do I want to live with a version of me that is finding my identity in Christ and the truth of who I am, that is growing in healthy friendships is finding places of where do I find joy and fulfillment? And so again, if the relationship makes it and you're a healthier you, fantastic, you know, and if for some reason the relationship isn't able to survive, a healthier version of you is still needed. And so to make that self care an emphasis is important. And I'd say, again, speaking to the other half of this equation, if you are the struggling addicted spouse, looking for opportunities to make that possible for your spouse is key. You know, going to them and saying, how could I make sure you have time to get together with your friends? What do you need in terms of some time away from our kids? Could I get home a little early on these days so that you're able to go for a walk, a run, meet that friend, go shop, like, whatever it is for your spouse, I think you can help lead the way in that area to show I get that you're gonna need more than just, you know, me not acting out. Like, you're gonna need to take steps yourself so we can be ones that help encourage that.

And that's a way of pursuing your spouse. I know it doesn't feel like it because it needs to be like, I'm pursuing you and we're spending time. That's an interesting almost backdoor kind of way to pursuing your spouse.

Second that.

Absolutely, 100%, I think, and I appreciate you saying that about self care, I think if you lived in my head, you'd understand that it's not always true. It probably looks more true than it is. But I think for me, growing up with the idea or the implication that self care is selfish or unhealthy or whatever, I think one of the struggles I have is I'm afraid to try things that maybe I've never tried. I've always been like, I wonder how I would experience that or if that'd be fun or Filling. And if I try that new thing and experience disappointment or it doesn't do what I thought it would do the first time that I try it, it's like, bro, if you try snowboarding the first time, like, unless you're just a genius at it and you should just be doing it professionally, you're gonna fall a bunch. Like there's this kind of lack of grace getting into that. That moment or that space. But I'm afraid, and I think it was Paul Young on our episode with him, he talked about future tripping, that I am afraid of the potential of disappointment happening if I try this. Therefore I'm just not going to try it. I'll just avoid the possibility of disappointment. And really what's interesting is that if I do this self care activity, maybe it's, I mean, anything. Like for me, maybe it's just going and being out and reading a book outside. But maybe. Oh, that didn't really fill me up. What's interesting is in that moment, I think that selfishness, it feels like that gets reinforced. But somehow it was selfish because it wasn't as filling or made me feel like I come back home and I'm still upset. It's like, it's okay, give some time and some space for that to develop. Because self care is a muscle. It's going to take time.

Like, yeah, yeah. And, and in that we have to remember what self care is doing for the brain. If we are removing ourselves from a situation to isolate, that's a different scenario than removing yourself from a situation to become filled back up. And so.

And solitude versus isolation.

Yeah, exactly.

And sometimes you mentioned, you know, young moms and they don't have a moment. I think something that is super important for our brain is to. When we don't have time, honestly to go, and this sounds kind of hokey, but to go into the bathroom, look in the mirror and say affirmations to yourself. So a lot of women will struggle with their body image. And sometimes what women will do is they will stand undressed in front of the mirror and say, I love this part of my body. I love this part, and speak affirmations. Because when you, when, when it comes to sexual betrayal, trauma, it is, it is important when regaining your confidence and your value, your inherent worth. It is important to. When we don't have time to go snowboarding or whatever that some of us may have the opportunity to do now that our kids are older.

Yeah.

To take at least those moments to go into a mirror and speak the Lord's truth. Into how you are wonderfully made and how you, even in this broken state, how worthy you are to be loved.

I'm going to expand that a little bit and say that anybody needs to do that to any, like, especially if you've experienced trauma, betrayal trauma. But I think it's probably more. This is just my observation, it's more overt in women than it is in men. But I know I carry tons of shame that that is like really packed deep down, so I'd never have to think about it. So I think a lot of people experience that, but that's going to seem really weird, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

Well, it's good for your brain. Yeah, it is, right?

And maybe it's not standing in front of a mirror naked. Maybe it's going out and just laying down in your hammock that's outside for 15 minutes and you're not talking. You're not trying to process. You are literally just laying there trying to rest in God's presence. It could be whatever, but that idea of still giving yourself time and space to change your brain, because that's what will happen. Okay, so we're going to wrap it up now with key number seven. And we've alluded to this a few times and some of these different keys, but it's important to say it is that moving forward and what we mean by that is growing in health or healing from this takes time. Let's talk about that.

Yeah, so I don't remember his last name, but Allen. When we went through the PSAP training module one, he was talking about betrayal trauma a lot. And he said that for. And he used it in the context of women who were the spouse that experienced betrayal trauma. And he said, imagine that your wife just saw her toddler get run over by a truck and you're asking her to get over it. And that to me is so profound because I don't know, honestly, if that would be something that someone ever could get over. I think that what happens with most of us is that we just learn to live life a different way. And figuring that out, I mean, I just. Even developmentally, you look at the way that kids grow and how many years it takes them to figure out life and their world. And, you know, and so I think that it's going to take time. And depending on the level of trauma and what a couple is dealing with and a spouse is dealing with, it could take a lot of time. And so I think to just give grace in that area to Recognize that you don't have to be there alone, that you're not going to go through this process by yourself, but that it's going to take time, you know, And I think that too, so many of us wish that we could turn back time and we didn't know what we know today, but that's really not what we want. We want something even better than what we had before, and the only way to get to that is to go through it.

Yeah, I heard. I ran into a woman once in the hospital, and she had just lost her spouse. And I don't know how we got into this conversation, but she had said to me, the pain doesn't go away, it just softens. And I thought, oh, that that just gives so much permission to allow the fact that I am currently in pain, that it's okay that it's still there, but then there's hope, that it softens. The intensity and the rawness of it does, the edging of it, you know, it wears down and it does become softer with time. So, yeah, yeah.

I think when you look at the grief cycle, you know, and the goal of that, the outcome is acceptance, that acceptance is not the same as getting over it. That acceptance means I've embraced this pain as my new reality. And I think over time it does lessen, but it's accepting that's my reality, not getting over it. And I think sometimes we look for, well, when will that day come? Well, this doesn't matter anymore. I don't know if it'll ever not matter because it was painful. And if certain things trigger memories of that or kind of take you backwards, some of that pain will still be there, but you could still be in a place of acceptance with the grief. And I wanted to go back to something you said, Trevor, just making the comment that your recovery will go at the pace of the betrayed spouse. And I think I'd maybe modify that a little bit because it's my sense that in a relationship it's a dance and both partners are involved and that recovery will often go at the pace of the slowest partner. And so I think that's a reality. If you're the betrayed, traumatized spouse, you can work on you and you can be moving forward. But honestly, if your spouse isn't engaging in their own recovery, if they're not facing their issues, your recovery will probably take more time. It will go slower because you have more dynamics, more complications to work through, versus if there's a relationship where you're the betrayed spouse and you're working on recovery. And your addicted or struggling spouse is also head on in recovery. I mean, they're going to group and they're doing the work and they're making phone calls for accountability and they're engaging in counseling. Like that's a very hopeful situation, that recovery might be going faster. So I think what I would underscore, though, in all of that is whatever situation you are in, you have to allow yourself to be in your situation and not look at, well, man, look at so and so. And a year in, they are so much further ahead of where I am or they see. Because part of it, you don't really know their whole story probably, or their reality. Some of what you see may be just perception, but I think it's just that willingness to say whatever it takes for me is what it's going to take. Because of my unique family of origin, because of my unique trauma story from my past and what happened within my marriage, it's going to go at its own pace. And I'm just going to let that pace be what it is. And hopefully your struggling spouse is on board with you because that can really help when both are moving towards recovery together.

Yeah, we, at year two, we thought, we thought we had made it. We really did. And someone actually had come up to us and asked us, wow, you know, you guys are just like the exemplary. Exemplary.

Exemplary.

Thank you.

Definition. Exemplary.

You know, you are the definition of how this process works.

And we're like dangerous.

We sure are.

Yeah. And then y' all come over and find out.

Yeah, yeah, well, at the time. But then probably a year later there was a relapse. I don't know why. Not sure, Trevor. Anyway, anyways, my point in that is there. I love what you just said because the reality was that we, we hit a plateau and, and then rolled back a little bit and then had to keep building. And it was in the. In that that we realized, oh, oh, no, no, no, there's. There's still plenty of so much more. Right. And what we did is we, we had kind of set a goal in mind not realizing that God had way bigger goals for us. And you know, here we are at the. In this recording eight and a half years later. And, and we still, we have learned to not. We learned to keep pushing the goals out and to let this moving forward, taking time, to not put an end date on it, let it take time. Time really, truly is on your side. And that to me, giving, like you said, giving yourself permission to be in whatever phase you're in is important.

And we said that about purity, that purity is not a destination you arrive at. It's a journey that you're on and continually moving towards a place of living out the purity that Christ has already given you. And I think in recovering from betrayal trauma, it's that same idea that there's not some magical, mythical place you'll arrive at where it's done.

Yeah.

That this recovery is a journey and you will get further down the road and make progress. But I think just what you said, Jen, there's always new steps to take. There's always more ways to heal and grow and learn and start reaching back and helping others. Like, you're walking on that journey. And so if we're looking for a place where, like, the journey ends, we may be disappointed. I think there are definitely some hallmarks along the way that can feel like, man, we're in a new place and you want to celebrate that.

Those.

But just be mindful that the journey goes on and God will keep meeting you in whatever phase of the journey you're at right now.

Yeah, I wrote this down. And I think this is how I try to summarize it, is avoiding the pain now will cause more pain later. And the thought of, like, someone who breaks their leg, goes in, gets surgery, there's pain and discomfort, and man, there's just, like, inconvenience that's now in their life. If you don't sit down and allow that to set and you don't do physical therapy and you just, like, start walking again and just live your life the way that you were. You're going to walk with a limp the rest of your life. You're not letting the bone settle or heal. You're not letting this wound have the time it needs to to heal. And I think that that's so often what we do is we try on both sides. It's not just the addicted spouse who's like, will you just hurry up already? It's. There's this internal clock that we even put on ourselves as we experience betrayal, trauma. Just like, can I just be done with this yet? And if you rush through it, more pain will come later. Like, it will actually amplify the pain if you don't sit in it and allow yourself to feel the feelings and experience what you're actually experiencing internally. You know, and I've talked about it a lot, but just the idea that we all get so uncomfortable with our suffering and the suffering of other people that we just try to push people through it. Please don't do that. Please let this ride out. The roller coaster will end. It doesn't have to keep going. I feel like this is. These are to what Nick, you were saying. This is not seven keys to being done with betrayal trauma forever. This is keys to understanding it. Because understanding gives us language and a framework to do the healing journey. This is just the start. Like these seven hopefully are just the beginning of you putting these things into practice and entering into the healing process with your spouse, with the person who you experienced this betrayal from. Because that's what we're after. We're not after just you getting healed and you not you having a softened version of betrayal. It's we're trying to restore relationships to have more people 8 1/2 year later, you know, sitting at the table saying, wow, look at where we're at. So just so you know, listener, we also have this, like we said in an ebook that's on our website. We'll put the link in the show notes, read through this, download it, share it with people. It's free. It's important that more and more people get this information. Heather, Jen, thanks for being with us. Appreciate it.

Thanks for having us.

Yeah, thanks.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma. And lastly, never stop being healthy.

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