213 - The Effects of Pornography w/ Josh McDowell

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. What is up, people? I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 213 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

It's a bird, it's a plane, it's Josh McDowell or Superman.

So, listener, today we had the one and only, because there's no one else like him, Josh McDowell, to talk about. Like, yes, you heard me right, Josh McDowell, like the Josh McDowell, like, wrote a bunch of books.

Apologist, like in the hundreds, like books.

Like ministry named after you, Josh McDowell. And we had him on today to talk about just pornography, the effects of pornography and how to battle it.

Yeah. You know, the first time I met Josh McDowell was when he came out for our Legacy of Honor event celebrating Ted and Diane Roberts a number of years ago. And he had on a giant Superman belt buckle. I'll never forget it, which I just thought was fantastic. And he really is, you know, I think in terms of being an apologist of the faith, someone that's really, for decades been someone that interprets culture and helps culture find Christ and Christians understand how to live in culture in a way that honors Christ. And so we're excited about today's episode because he really has, over the last decade or so, turned a lot of his ministry focus and attention towards what's happening in our world with pornography. And we get to talk about that today. And he's, you know, for anyone who knows Josh McDowell and has read his books, he is a straight shooter and he calls it like it is. And it's compelling, it's convicting, it's at time hard to hear. But I think when we wrestle through. Well, why was that hard to hear? It's because it gets into our natural defenses and the things that we don't want to deal with. But I really think that's what I've seen. Josh McDowell's call on his life has been in his ministry is like to call us into things that we need to face because they're important and they're valuable. And so my guess is for you, the listener, at some point, today's episode, Josh is going to say something. You kind of go, oh, wait a minute, but reflect on it, deal with it. And I think we're going to see there's some truths here we need to hear. And really it's encouraging just to have the voice like his added to this journey that we're all on together.

Yeah.

And I mean, he interrupts us, butts in. It just. It was a really fun time and a really good time with Josh McDowell. So before we get into it, though, subscribe to the podcast if you hadn't. We're on all the major platforms. Follow us on social media, earedesire, pdmi. Also, this episode will be with others, full episode up on YouTube. And then lastly, we just want to remind people, again, we're trying to do this rhythm where we're just reminding people there is a way to get involved with pure desire and to help be a part of the team. And we have coined that or called that team 58.

Yeah.

You know, you really will hear it in today's episode that there is a tide of sexual brokenness that is just breaking across our culture and our world. And, you know, we ask the question, like, how do we stand against that? And I think of these images where there's these giant waves coming and, you know, there's a single tree that's standing alone, like, it just gets devastated. But it's when we come together and when we're strengthened and doing this as a team that I really think we can change that tide. We can make a difference. And so the team 58 name comes from Isaiah 58 and Isaiah's prophecies about how our salvation will break forth, our healing will come quickly, like the dawn, and we will become known as those who rebuild the broken cities, who restore the fallen walls. And. And I think about the imagery of that's what pure desire is about. And we do that together. That. That we are helping families rebuild their lives. We're helping men and women restore their freedom. And when we partner financially, we're all a part of that. And we're standing together against this tide, and Lord willing, it will create a shift. And so it starts by more and more people just jumping in and saying, I want to be engaged in a ministry that's making that kind of difference in the world, and I'm a part of it. And so when you join team 58, we've got some. Some gifts for you, some ways to say, hey, you're on the team. We're welcome. Here's your hat, here's your shirt, and let's do this together.

Yeah. So if you want to join team 58 and be really on the team that's changing the tide of sexual brokenness in the world, go to PureDesire.org give. And here it is, people. Our conversation with the one and only Josh McDowell. All right. We have the one and only Josh McDowell on the podcast. Welcome, Josh. Thanks for being with us.

Hey, I couldn't tear down the honorarium.

It's pretty high here at Pure Desire.

Hefty.

I mean, our guests, they're living the high life.

Oh, my gosh, we're paying him in heavenly jewels and diamonds and crowns and all that. Well, Josh, we have been connected to you through our friend Ben Bennett. You came and spoke at our Legacy of Honor event a few years ago for Dr. Ted and Diane. And we are obviously big fans of you and the work that you're doing, but we wanted to have you on and really talk about pornography, what's happening today. You've been putting a lot of your time and energy toward it. And so, I mean, in that. In that line of thinking, with the energy and the time you've been putting into researching pornography, can you just give our listeners a little bit understanding why is that? What drew you to it, and what has kept you pushing forward in the research?

What drew it to me first was a number of years ago, I'd say 10, 12 years ago now or more, in studying culture, because I need to study culture, know how to hone my messages. And I kept seeing there's something wrong, especially among young people, just something not there. Normally, I can put my finger right on the problem, but I couldn't. This. It took me over a year. And I remember telling Dottie, one time I came home, I said, I now know what it is. And she said, what is it? I said, pervasive Internet pornography. Something I noticed was then, when people start watching pornography, especially young people more than older, the source of their authority starts to erode. The Bible, scripture, church, their pastor, their parents, Jesus, it all starts to erode. And that's what I was noticing. And I tied it directly to pornography. But look, when you start doing your research and you double check it because you can't believe the stats, I mean, I just. It's hard to believe them, but I know they're accurate. Where 70% of evangelical men monthly pursue pornography and the Internet, 38% of evangelical men, young people older, daily pursuing pornography and Internet when 57% of evangelical pastors do, 50, 48% of Christian women do. When you realize there's 26 million pornographic websites one click away. Wow. There's over 2.8, probably now about 3 billion pornographic web pages just one click away. Yeah. You realize that we got a problem. The church has a problem. And I kept wondering, why aren't pastors and Christian leaders Addressing these issues. And what I concluded, it's sad, is that so many of them are involved, they won't address the issue.

Yeah.

Many are afraid to talk about it, feeling they'll be exposed. I almost think of greeting today. I wish everyone that ever greets me would look me in the eye and say, hi, Josh, how you doing? Are you watching pornography? I almost think that ought to be a natural greeting. And I do that to quite a few Christian. I don't call people Christian leaders, Christian influencers, and some of them really get upset. But I've had a number. When I say number four, five, do this. This one fellow. It was at Colorado State University, a big Christian conference, and I met this other speaker and everything. We hadn't seen each other for a while.

Hug.

And I looked right now, and I said, do you watch pornography? Oh. He got upset, really dressed me down in front of everyone, everything, and walked away. Two months later, we pass each other in a hallway at another conference, and he stops. He says, I owe you an apology. He said, how did you know? I had no idea what he was talking about. I said, how did I know what? That I was watching porn? I said, I didn't. But it's out of the bag right now with a guy you don't want to have know it. Yeah, right. And I've had four or five, maybe six people say things like that. Christian influencers. And so with all of that, you've got to deal with it. Yeah, yeah. Otherwise you're. You're playing at ministry. Yeah, yeah.

The stats are really phenomenal right now. And I mean, and a lot of them are coming from work you're doing and research that you're a part of. And we're so appreciative of that at Pure Desire that we get to be, in a sense, a beneficiary of helping people understand the pervasiveness of this problem. And I think what you identified about one click.

I want to interrupt here. Go.

Go for it.

If anyone understands the problem, it's Pure Desire. If anyone out here understands some of the key solutions, it's pure desire. You guys are one of the better organizations on the face of the earth. Wow. And I almost ought to be interviewing you.

Well, hey, you let us know when you want us on your podcast. We'll be there. We'll come to the conference or just take our podcast.

You can just have it. Take it.

Yeah. I don't have a. I don't have a broadcast. I do have a podcast, but I do it a little differently. Yeah, yeah. So you were saying. Go ahead.

Well, yeah, I was just saying the point you made about it being one click away, I mean, we're talking millions of websites, billions of pictures and images and videos that are out there. And I've often thought about it, like if someone in their kitchen pantry, you open your pantry door and there is every food known to man is just one arm's length away. I could reach out and grab any food in the world. You know, 99% of the time, I might make wise choices, get apples, bread, you know, things I should be eating. But if I can pick absolutely anything that's that easy, I'm gonna eat candy bars and junk because it's right there.

That's right.

Now, if I have to go to a store and find a special place to get a certain food, I'm less likely to consume it. But that's kind of where we're at with Internet pornography. That one click away, you can be anywhere you want. And in so many ways, the human brain and the human spirit isn't. We're not ready for that level of. How do we deal with our own impulsivity? Because we're all impulsive to some degree. Right.

Well, one of the biggest phrases I hear from parents, and they don't realize that. They don't in the background realize it, but it's the dumbest, stupidest phrase you could ever say. I'll be talking about kids and pornography and all. And said, josh, I know it's a big problem. Everything you don't know my kids, my kids are good kids. My kids aren't going to go pursue pornography and look for it in the Internet and everything. They're good kids. And I just kind of shake my head and want to say, how irrelevant or unattached can you be to your own children? Your children probably are good children. They probably won't go out looking for pornography on the Internet. But you missed the point, lady. Pornography is looking for them and absolutely will find them. The best kids, the good kids, the excellent kids. Pornography will find them. It's everywhere. But that's the number one thing I hear from parents. There was up in. Was it Oregon or was it Oregon? Yeah, it was Oregon. This lady was telling me that, well, you know, that's why when our kids were real young, we moved to a large farm we bought and way out in nowhere. And so it protect our children, and so we don't have that problem, our kids. And I'm thinking, well, later I get a call from the mother for help and Found out her kids with some of the neighbor kids at another farm quite a ways away, introduced them to pornography and they were watching it constantly. And here are these parents for years thought, our kids are good kids. We don't have that problem. They're not watching it. They would never pursue it. Pornography found them through neighbors.

Yeah, well, unfortunately, we sometimes get the same response from churches like, well, not in my church. We have a good church and we preach the Bible here, and yet we kind of ignore human nature, that we're prone to wander. And if we're not taking seriously our own capacity to get into trouble when it's just a click away, I think we've greatly misunderstood the problem. So, Josh, you know, your background is.

I don't want to go beyond the pastor, any pastor listening. Listen to this. When I hear a pastor say that we don't have that problem in our church, etc. From experience, I'm pretty well convinced their church is worse than most churches with pornography. Why?

There's some denial.

That's right. They're not aware of it, they're not looking for it and they're not seeing it, but it's there. And when they say we don't have that problem, et cetera. Usually, not all the time, but I'm. Majority of the time they're worse off than other churches when pastors make statements like that. You were saying again, I keep interrupting you, but I love to interrupt.

Hey, this is a conversation. If we were sitting around at Starbucks, we'd want you to interrupt us and interject your thoughts and ideas. And I was just going to ask, you know, with your background being in apologetics and understanding culture and, you know, such great teaching and preaching in the church, as you've shifted so much of your focus to understanding our culture and what's happening with pornography, are there any things in the last 10, 12 years with this focus that has surprised you was different than you expected, that as you've really gotten into it, that you just, you didn't expect you were going to find what. What has been surprising to you in this journey?

Probably two things that I didn't expect when I first started looking into it that's happened over time. One, I didn't expect it to go younger and younger and younger. I'm convinced now the average age is about 4 to 5 years old. Used to be 10 to 11, then 9 to 10, then 8 to 9 and 7 to 8. 6. Now I believe it's 5 to 6 years of age. So that surprised me. Breaks my heart too.

Oh yeah.

But second, I didn't know that pornography could go darker and darker and darker. I think it's kind of the law of diminish return. Yep. Is that to hold their audience, to make the money and all, they've got to go darker and darker and more. More revealing dynamic.

Yeah.

Than they have to say a few years ago. And those two things really surprised me. And then probably the other surprises. How many parents are not aware of it? I mean they're not hearing it in church. But I would say to any parent it's probably a good chance your children watch pornography. I'm not saying they absolutely do, but stats out there shows it's a good percentage from some of the best families your kids have seen and are seeing pornography. Yeah. Those all really surprised me.

That's, that's the stuff that scares me to death. I mean I spent. You know.

Yeah. You put those two things together. Getting younger and younger and darker and darker. Like together. That's.

And I have, I have a 4 year old. Like he will turn 5 in February. And if that's the average age then like, I mean God help me and my wife. Like, you know, for me I had so many years of an addiction and have found freedom and that's great. But like my freedom doesn't mean he won't ever be exposed. My two sons.

That's right.

Are going to be exposed to pornography. And that is terrifying. And. Yeah. And that, I mean that's just. That is a very sobering reality that I think. And that's just the thing. Like we're not having all these sex and sexuality conversations right now with our four year old. But we do talk about body parts. We do talk about. Do you show other people these body parts? Like do you, you know, playfully put this body part in your brother's face when you know, you guys are in the bath? Like, no. You know, things like that where we're trying to normalize conversation about the, the body and you know, sexual organs.

But then you.

I commend you for that. You've got to start by four years old. Yeah. And, and even bring in a little bit. You can bring in a little porn there. Just a little bit that, you know, there's things on TV and the Internet. Yeah. That son. Daughter. Are just not good. Yeah. They can ruin you ever having what mom and dad have. Yeah. And but the thing is. And I know you do it is parents always constantly reinforce. You can always come to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So good.

Always come to me. And I say to parents if somebody comes to you and they share something like this, mommy, I was watching TV and this came on tv. Praise them for it. I mean, praise the child. Yeah. Hug them, express appreciation for their honesty. Even take them out for ice cream or something.

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

And reward them for that. Yeah. But I admire you.

Thanks.

Doing that with your four year old. Yeah. I almost think you start preparing them for pornography at birth. People say, oh, come on. No, I'm serious. When, when you're giving them a bath, changing their diapers, whatever. Just saying. And you're doing this with the body part saying, isn't God wonderful? He just created you so beautiful, so wonderful. Then a little later, a little bit older, a few months. Isn't God wonderful how he created your body as a little boy, as a little girl? Later on, isn't God wonderful how he raised. He creates little boys with penises and little girls with vaginas. Isn't God wonderful?

Yeah. Right.

And right at birth, building in, they don't understand it all.

Yeah.

But they'll catch the attitude. Yeah, they will catch the attitude.

Oh, yeah.

And their brain is learning wonderful and positive. Yeah. And when I think something's wonderful and positive, they're more prone to talk to mom and dad about it.

Totally.

But so good.

With your children your age, one of the best things you can do is have honest, open conversations. Yeah. And I say to mental, listen to the mother. I, as a man, most people are afraid of sharing too much too early. That's not the problem. Almost always the problem is too little too late. Yes, 95% of the time it's a problem. But I listen to my wife because my wife could temper how open and descriptive I am at the different ages of my children. And so I say to men, listen to your wife. It's probably the best counsel you can get on talking to your children about sexual issues. Yeah.

So, Josh, you've talked about these trends that you've seen that are really scary. What are you seeing in the future of pornography? Kind of, you know, put your visionary hat on. Like you're, you know, you're a prophet. Like what's coming in the future of pornography that we need to be aware of.

Well, the biggest thing is it's going to become more and more and more normalized and accepted. And it breaks my heart even in the church. And I think with that, you're going to see a significant increase in sex abuse and sex trafficking because they're directly related to porn. Directly related to porn, Sex trafficking. And sex abuse. And you're going to see more and more of it, younger and younger and younger.

You know, when I think of the normalization of pornography, I remember when I was growing up, one of the defenses I think that Christianity, Christian families had is like, well, it's, you know, it will never be on, you know, public tv and we've got decency laws and. And that was maybe a hope that we had. But now you look what's happened with the way people access their television and their movies, everything now, you know, very rarely are we just going to our public television stations or NBC and watching the content. I mean, sometimes we do. But everything is streaming. Everything is, you know, these package purchases. And. And because of that, the rules are different. There can be nudity. And I think we're seeing in what are being presented as just kind of normal sitcoms or normal shows, the level of sexual content, because it's now not just a public TV channel is going way, way up. And so that's just one of those areas we see in a normal television show, the normalization of really a pornified culture.

One thing, too.

A teenager. A teenager, a child cannot walk into a store and buy a porn magazine, but they can turn on their tv, turn on their Internet and surface it. Yeah, yeah. They can't go on. They can't buy a beer, a pack of cigarettes or anything, but they can go. Yeah. And surf the web for pornography. Yeah. And no one is stopping them. I'm sorry I interrupted you. That's the fourth time I've interrupted you all.

We'll just keep track. It'll be great. We'll just deduct it from the honorarium.

But we. It's already gone. The honorarium.

One of the things I've picked up on, we have a Disney plus subscription. And one of the things I picked up on, you know, we're recording this at the tail end of June, Pride Month. And so for them, I see a lot of these on my Kit on the kids profile on the Disney, these. These movies and these TV shows that are celebrating and platforming homosexuality. And, you know, I know different people can land on different places when it comes to if that's okay culturally or not. But what I've noticed is that there is this elevation of sexual identity. And so even this inadvertent message is getting preached to all of these kids and all these people who are watching it that sexuality is a very important thing to be celebrated. And then also just understand, like, I can't just have my sons. I can't just tell them, hey, yeah, go watch Disney plus. Like, you know, and I'll go check out in the other room. Like, even my son watches dude perfect videos on YouTube. Christian. Guys who do all these trick shots, there are ads on YouTube all the time. And so I can't. There is this. I can't check out anymore. I'm just realizing there's so many of these submerged messages that find their ways to the surface.

Yeah. Yeah.

Parents have to stay engaged.

There's a great price to pay when a nation does not protect its children. When those children grow up, the nation will pay a great price. And it's going to happen. Yeah. The. It's too bad we don't have more control over it, but some people could care less.

Yeah, obviously so, Josh.

But here again, the biggest thing is a relationship with mom and dad.

Yeah. So talk about that. What more. You know, you already talked about how important it is in the home that, like a culture where kids can come to mom and dad with anything. But what else in this? I mean, because I'm thinking of the parents that are listening to this. We're probably terrifying them. Sorry, mom and dad, but we're here to help. We're helping you. What else would you say to those parents? Like, what could they be doing to proactively build health, resilience, truth, you know, just to handle this? Well, what parents do give your child.

Don't give your child a porn shop. In other words, a cell phone. Gosh, I see kids 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 with their own cell phone. Well, I say to parents, and you're the cause of it, if you give your child at those ages, permit them to have a cell phone, you're asking for it. And their addiction would be because of you. Not so much because of porn. But, you know, you're a parent, all your children's friends all have cell phones and everything. And the pressure is great. And I'll say this. If you do not build a loving, intimate, close relationship with your children, you're going to have problems. Here's the phrases I use. Rules without relationships leads to rebellion. Kids don't respond to rules. They respond to rules in a context of a loving, intimate relationship. Truth. The truth of the gospel, the truth about porn, whatever. Truth without relationships leads to rejection. And put it this way, talking about a cell phone, having a cell phone without relationship leads to a war. Most parents give into a cell phone because they don't want to battle, which means they haven't built a really close, loving, responsive relationship. With their child.

Yeah.

People say to me, when my children, I have three daughters and son, they were growing up, we'd talk about who our kids are going to marry. So, well, you know, you don't have a lot of say so in it. I said, yes, I do. And I did. My children, if they were thinking of marrying someone and they knew their daddy disapproved of it, I do not think my children go ahead and marry them. I don't because of the relationship that I have with my children and now they have with my 11 grandchildren, is that I had a lot of influence over my kids choices of who they were going to marry and often say if the situation came up where I disagreed, it didn't mean that maybe my daughter, my son wouldn't marry that person. But I'll guarantee you this, they'd give it a little more time and really check it out.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, yeah.

I think.

And it all comes out of a relationship.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that discipline, I would never dream of disciplining a child that didn't know I absolutely loved him. Yeah. Because discipline without a relationship leads to bitterness, anger and resentment.

Yeah, yeah. And what I mean, we have the perfect example in our heavenly Father. He had a lot of rules and regulations. He demands holiness. But it's all stemmed from a relationship, a redemptive pursuit of us and a relationship of us, which is so like, as I'm listening to you, Josh, it like a parent has zero excuse today to be passive when it comes to their kids and pornography. Like in any area, but specifically in this one. That. And I love the accountability even in what you're saying, that if you give your kid a phone, you are a part of that problem. You are a cause to that, which is really like, even as I heard you say that, I'm like, excuse me, there's that pride in me that wants to flare up and fight back, but at the same time, you are talking about someone who's being active in their setting up their kids for future success in their life. If I care enough about my son, going to put rules inside of the context of a loving relationship, regulations, rhythms for my kids so that that will set them up for future benefit. And that like, that is loving. And I think we see the example in God. That's, that's the way that he interacts with us.

And even when your child gets older, you allow them to have a cell phone, you've got to use every piece, what do you call it out there that you put in the cell phone to Protect them. What do you call that?

Either accountability software or.

Yeah, accountability software. I would use everything out there to do that. And there's some accountability software now that picks up the screen image, not the source. And I would have that on every phone if my child didn't like it. Well, they wouldn't have it.

Yeah. Covenant.

They found a way around it and dislodged it or something. That'd be the last time they'd have a cell phone in their possession a long time. Yeah. Parents got to be more involved now than ever before because of the Internet. Yeah. But at the same time, the Internet is so wonderful. I mean, there's so many good things on the Internet. Yeah, yeah. Like we get your. Yeah. Your ipod, your iPad, your cell phone. Everything that it can communicate over the Internet. Right. Yeah. Positive message about Christ, family, everything.

Yeah.

Yep.

I mean, we could go ahead. We couldn't do this spiritual bucket list item of talking to you right now on our podcast if it wasn't for the Internet right now. So.

And I think that's what we're trying to say as a ministry, like, the goal, just what you were talking about, Josh, the family that moves to the woods and the farm and, like, we're going to get away from it all. Like, it's. It's not possible in our world to avoid these things. What we need is engaged parents, engaged families, moms and dads that are engaged in healthy community with other moms and dads and men and women, and are able to face this with wisdom and discernment and godly accountability in their life through friendship. And it's not about avoidance anymore. And so it's learning to face these pressures and challenges with a whole lot more godly wisdom, maybe than was needed 50 years ago, but it's necessary now. And so, Josh, let's go back to the leader. And I know you have a heart for pastors, you have a heart for people in ministry, and you were talking about, you know, their level of struggle. I'm curious for you to respond to this. Do you think. Are there particular reasons why leaders may be susceptible to. To struggling with pornography and sexual brokenness beyond, you know, the average person? Or is it just that they are the average person in ministry and so they struggle like the average person? Why do we see so many Christian leaders or influencers, like you said, struggling with their sexuality?

It's probably about the same percentage as the world around. It's just that pastors, whether man or woman, Christian leaders, they're all human. They all got a Sex, I don't like to call it a sex drive, a sex desire and all. And many pastors, it's easy to feel, well, I deserve it. Here I'm pouring my life into so many people and everything. I deserve it. And then the problem with pastors and with anyone. Oh. If you do not have a loving, intimate, exciting marriage and sex life with your spouse, you're vulnerable. I don't think anyone like that should be a pastor. Boy, that's. I mean, probably some people just hung up. But somebody that's in front of people in leadership influencing if they do not have an exciting love, marriage, and sexual relationship at home, they are vulnerable. Publicly, they're vulnerable. And I think deacons and elders need to be a little more observant. You look at. Now, I got to be careful saying this because I don't know all the facts, but I look at the situation with my dear brother, Ravi Zacharias.

Yeah, that was a hard one.

Where was his board? Where were the men and women around him? Now, I got to be careful because they could be doing everything they could of his. Still missed it.

That's right.

Yep. And I got to think that's probably what happened, because I don't know who was on his board or anything, but I'm sure they were good people. But Robbie was personality A. And he could sell a milking machine to a farmer that had one cow and take the cows down, payment for the milking machines. If somebody would ask me, who's the one person in the world that would be the last person that would happen to, I would have answered Ravi Zacharias and myself. And yet, with all. I mean, I take so many precautions, it's almost hilarious. I couldn't carry on an affair with my cell phone, no matter how smart I was. Technically, so many people see everything that goes and comes in through and by my cell phone. Yeah. And yet, knowing it can happen to someone like Robbie, it can happen to anyone. Anyone. And I was gutted when I heard about it. But then I really became so much more aware of how careful I need to be in everything. But the key is a relationship with your spouse. A relationship with your spouse. Yeah. And I would tell pastors, if you don't have a loving, exciting marriage. And I mean, sex life, that's spiritual. You know, the Bible says, let her breast satisfy you and enjoy in proverbs and let sex be incredible. That must be my loose version of what it says, but it's very straightforward.

That's right.

And so I would say, if you're a pastor and hurting. Get counsel.

Yeah, that's right.

Get counsel. And there's an organization that I support, not in a big way, as I don't have a lot of money, but I support when I can. It's called Care for Pastors. And I think they're in Florida and might have a place in Colorado, too, where pastors can go with their spouse. And everything I've studied on those, I've talked that have gone through it. It's powerful. Care for Pastors and boards should be sensitive. They see things in their pastor's life and know the board should take the step and send them to a place like Care for Pastors and let the board, the church, pay for it. Yeah. Yeah. Invest in your pastor. Yeah. Make sure your pastor has time off. Yeah. Sex life. Make sure your pastor takes a vacation. Everything. That's the responsibility of the board. And I think the majority of church boards are negligent. I really do. Not all of them. Yeah. But so many are. Hold the pastor to the grindstone. Yeah.

Well, I love it. You know, on this podcast, we're calling out parents, we're calling out pastors, we're calling out boards. Like, I just. I love the challenges, Josh, and that emphasis of in this area. We're just. We're really suffering from a lack of awareness that when it comes to Christian leaders and pastors, a lot of times we assume, like, well, they need to work on that marriage thing on their own. That's not really a church issue or that's not really a leadership issue. And that's. That's really the wrong approach that we've got to see our pastors and leaders as real people, and we have to be just as engaged with, hey, how are you doing in your relationships as we are? How are you doing in your theology and your leadership of our church? Because that part of their life has more danger of tripping them up probably than their theology or their church leadership ever will. And so we've got cancer help. Exactly. Yes. Yeah.

Cancel their theology. I would say to any pastor or to a board, if your pastor struggling some of those areas, and the board suggests counseling and where. And they'll pay for it, and the pastor says no, then I would say, you won't give the sermon next Sunday. Yeah. I wouldn't let a man like that step into the pulpit. Yeah. It's too dangerous. Too dangerous.

Yeah.

And very dangerous to counsel. Yeah.

It's just. Yeah. And I mean, Nick and I have been pastors before our time here at Pure Desire. And it is a. It's very easy to slip into isolation. It can be an isolating and feel like an island. And I know for me, when I was in that, I realized it didn't have to be like. It can be that there's this culture or there's this. You know, oftentimes in churches, you can have this. The pastor is the professional Christian and needs to have it all together. And that causes fear if I'm honest and I share with my board or kill my income. Right. It. Absolutely. And my ministry and my platform and fill in the blank. And I think that I know for me, as someone who is no longer functioning as a pastor, if I had my pastor come to me and say, well, here are some of the things I'm struggling with and just is real and wants to have that know and be known type of relationship. I mean, I'm at the place now where like, thank you. I understand how difficult it is to do that. And so I think that that's one thing for leaders. Just in my experience, limited experience. I haven't been a pastor for 40 years. Like, I don't know what that's like. But I do know that if you're real and you're able to invite people in to actually know who you are and know what you're going through in your life outside of your marriage, outside of your board, like, how does. How do you have real friends who know what's going on in your life? I think that can also be super helpful when it comes to this.

One thing that my wife and I have done, not a lot, I would say four or five times, is when we meet a pastor who's really struggling in these areas. And often once they get to know you, they'll open up. If you're a person of trust and not a gossip. And I suggest counseling, and I tell them, I will find a counselor for you. I have my secretary, then my administrative assistant will call various counselors in the area that pastor and interview. And most of them have never had somebody call them to be a potential client and interview them. And then we would call maybe three or four counselors and narrow it down to one. And then we tell the pastor, the Christian influencer, that we will pay for the first two or the first three counseling sessions. But after that, you need to. Because if they don't, it won't be worth it to them, Right?

Totally.

But maybe one out of ten never accepts your. Your offer. Wow. Yeah.

Just if there's a pastor listening who's caught in that Maybe it's a pornography addiction, binge purge, relationship, sexual brokenness of any level. What encouragement do you have for that Pastor? As they listen today, there's hope, there's.

Answers, there's solutions, and there's victory. I could write a whole book on that. I would say to the pastor, don't carry the load alone. Hundred and sometimes in the Bible, it says, one another, each other, comfort one another, encourage one another, love one another, serve one another, help one another, everything. And what I would say to a pastor, and I said this to a number. Is there another pastor that you respect, that you feel you could share with, Share it with a peer, share with another pastor. And then seek counseling in your area. Seek counseling your area because if you do not share it, it'll destroy you. If you do not seek counseling, it will destroy you. So those two things. And a big step is sharing it with your spouse.

Yeah.

If it's you as a wife sharing it with your husband. If it's you as a husband sharing it with your wife. And just pray that you have the kind of marriage, relationship and love that will walk. You can walk through it together. And I think most marriages will hold up to that. I really do. That's what I would have. I would say to any pastor. Yeah.

Yeah. And we've seen that, Josh, when someone is sincere about change and they want to do the right thing, their honesty can't. I mean, as hard as it will be, it can really create a new future for that marriage. So, Josh, you did write a book on this. You and Ben Bennett are releasing a book that's coming out in a few weeks called Free to Thrive. As we wrap up today, tell our listeners about the book and what they can expect from it.

Both Ben and I noticed over the years that so many believers, leaders, etc. Are not thriving in their walk with Christ. And it's almost always because of a hidden secret or something in their lives that they haven't dealt with and holding back. And a lot of that takes place. We learn, because people didn't know how to deal with some of those things in their lives. So we did a book, Free to Thrive, that when a person starts going through this book, you cannot read it and not know how to thrive in your walk with Christ. But you still got a will. You got to choose to do it.

Totally.

But if somebody chooses to do it, I believe the book can be one of the first resources to turn to free to thrive. And thank you for bringing that up because it's so on my heart to get more and more believers, parents, everything thriving in their walk with Christ. Yeah.

Well, we are big fans of you. We are big fans of Ben Bennett, and we know the resource is great. I mean, I have a copy of it on my desk right now that I've been flipping through, and I'm really, really excited to see all the impact.

It'S gonna have if I get a tattoo. Will you love me more?

Absolutely. 100%.

But I think Ben Bennett would love you more. That's for sure.

That's for sure.

He'd be so proud.

Ben has enough tattoos. I don't know. I don't need to add one.

That's true. That is true. Josh. Josh, thank you so much just for your time. And I'm. I mean, you probably hear this a lot, but your ministry, and one of the things that I've picked up on is over just the. The breadth of your career. You continue to just push forward and learn more and lean in and try to find more and more ways to help people. And that's just a beautiful thing and is so encouraging, and we just appreciate you.

What else is there? What else is there in life?

Absolutely.

This is it. Yeah.

You don't outgrow serving people. You outgrow having compassion for people. You don't outgrow helping others. Absolutely know Christ to thrive in Christ now. It just gets more fun as you get older.

All right, I like that.

Awesome.

It's good to hear, folks. I gotta go.

Awesome.

Awesome. Thanks, Josh. Appreciate it, man.

Bye. Bye.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you are someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma. And lastly, never stop being healthy. La.