214 - Myth Busters: Sex Every 72 Hours

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues.

Hey, hey, hey.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 214 of the Pure Desire podcast. You're joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stumba.

It's the final countdown. So good. Da da da da da da da.

We did a sermon series when I was on staff at Countryside. We did a series on the Book of Revelation called the Final Countdown and the walk up song to every single sermon.

You did a walk up song for the pastor?

Absolutely. Our senior pastor was like this like 80s rocker guy who looks like Guy Fieri and has spiked hair and they're tipped and everything. And it was awesome. And he got such a, he was laughing every time time as he got up to the stage. It was awesome. Also, don't preach on the Book of Revelation if you've never read the Book of Revelation. It's really difficult. Okay, so let's tie it in a little bit. What you're talking about. We had one of our clinicians, Bob Vandermeer, on the podcast to talk about the myth.

Robert Vandermeer.

Yes, Esquire. To talk about the myth that men need sex every 72 hours.

Yes. And you know, I think for some men it can be like a countdown clock in their head of like, well, it's been a day, so you know, oh, it's been two days. It's got to be like, I really need, because every three days and if I don't, I'm going to go crazy. Or, you know, there are all these cultural things, there are things that have been represented in media and even as we've discussed on this podcast before in the Christian realm, that standard that James Dobson mentioned it all the way back in the 70s, like, well, every three days couples ought to find a way to have sex because that just, you know, keeps their marriage vows in place and makes sure that no one will stray. And, and we've kind of created this elevation of getting that need met within marriage as the primary way to keep men from straying. And we just, we want to really unpack that myth and all the ways that it's damaged, I think men, but also relationships and women and how singles have learned to navigate that. So it's just such a loaded myth that as you even mentioned today, Trevor, as we got into this episode, I think we all realized, man, there's more connected to this idea than we even realized when we started yeah, absolutely.

And it really was. It's probably one of my favorite episodes we've done. So it is a good one. Few things before we get into it. Today's episode sponsored by our friends at Bethesda Workshops. They're located in Nashville, Tennessee. Bethesda Workshops provide short term Christian based clinical workshops for people affected by sexual addiction. They're led by certified sexual addiction therapists and they do four day workshops. They're for partners of sex addicts, male and female sex addicts, couples and teens. The fees for these workshops cover lodging, meals, transportation to and from the airport and payment plans and limited scholarships are available. Bethesda Workshops is one of our sponsors for our upcoming Pure Desire Summit September 10 and 11 online or in person at Harvest Christian Church in Troutdale, Oregon. For more info on Bethesda Workshops and to register you can visit Bethesda workshops.org we'll make sure that's in the show notes. Then you can jumpstart your healing process there. A few more things. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't on all the major platforms. We are @ PureDesirePDMI on social media and we do have full episodes of these up on YouTube. Just search Pure Desire Ministries. And here is our conversation on the myth that men need sex every 72 hours. Bob Vandermeer, welcome back, my friends.

Thanks.

Pleasure to be here in person. In person, in the flesh. In Carnacion, as they say.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. You are fluent.

Wow. Thank you.

Yeah.

Appreciate it.

That was impressive.

I didn't say affluent.

Oh, yeah.

Okay. Anyways. Okay, so let me just give a little backstory to this episode. So we had. Well, a couple of things. One, I've heard you say a phrase that I'm not going to take from you. I feel like you might say it during the episode, but I remember hearing you for the first time at a men's event say something against what we're going to talk about today when it comes to sex for men. And so specifically, yeah, controversial. How do you say that in Spanish? I'm just kidding.

Exactly.

So there was that and then mixed with. We had Sheila Rae Gregoire on and talked about some of this too. Some of it is also the peace out. There's just a lot of different things that are kind of catering to this conversation. And so we're excited to talk about the myth that specifically men need sex every 72 hours. Pause for dramatic effect. Right. So let's just.

It is in the show title. People at this point already know what we're talking about and maybe they're listening because they're like, wait a minute, that's not a myth. What? So we're glad you're checking it out and we hope this really will be thought provoking.

Absolutely.

They might not have seen the word myth. And we're hoping that they could use this, like, to justify what they've been telling.

Absolutely. Also, sex every 72 hours is not necessarily saying for one gender or the other. There's some ambiguity in there. Let's explore it.

Sure.

Where does this perspective come from? The perspective that men need sex every 72 hours? And is it based on data, research? What can we say about it?

Yeah, I mean, I think that for some people there is the. There is a physiological perspective that says that this is like a cycle that men particularly go through in the regenerating of whether it's like semen or semen or fluid or whatever else. Like to say that, okay, there's something that's being regenerated here and it's got to go somewhere. And, and that's, I mean, that's a real thing. There is like a pattern that's going on, right? Yeah, but I think then what they're saying, well, I'll stop, we'll save other parts for later.

Yeah.

I say we could answer all the questions, but yeah, that's the truth of there is a bodily response that after sex or masturbation, a guy is refueling those fluids and around that 72 hour mark, it's as filled up as it's going to get, if you will. But then the myth being, well, then that demands that there must be some kind of outlet and that's what we want to get into is like, is that reality because we're feeling something in our bodies? Does that mean that it justifies how we handle it?

Yeah.

And I think like this perspective, from my understanding, the history of it and understanding how it fits into culture, it's not coming from this bad place, like, per se. I think a lot of people understand sexual addiction or pornography addiction or affairs is motivated by a lack of sex in a marriage. And so, oh, okay, I'm gonna go to pornography or I'm gonna go have affairs or whatever. And so I think there's some biblical backing for this. The idea of like not withholding your body from your spouse. I think some people root it in that. I also think people root it in, obviously, as you guys talked about, the biology, but also just the idea of how do we facilitate sexual health in a marriage and keep people from going outside the Confines. Now, I think people who listen to the podcast know we're calling this a myth right now. But then also, that's not our perspective. That's not how you stay sexually healthy. Because addiction can be a part. Brokenness can be a part of any marriage. If you're having sex every single day, you can still be watching pornography or having affairs or.

And having sex every single day might also be the byproduct of addiction.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It could be anywhere on the spectrum from sexually acting out to sexual anorexia that we've also talked about, that a lack of sex can also be a byproduct of a lot of unhealth. So to take this a little deeper, Bob, let's think about the message of, you know, men need sex every three days. How is that message damaging, perhaps to men themselves and to women?

Yeah. And I think that obviously there's a reason. This is question two. Following question one, like, the idea that this is what's happening, like, physiologically, this is what my body's producing, then is used as maybe a justification to say, well, this is. That means we should be having sex as often. And so, like, maybe for.

For the.

For a man, like, maybe he doesn't have that sexual drive, and maybe he doesn't have that same pattern. And so there creates an expectation of what should be happening. But then also, same thing for, like. For a spouse. It's like, okay, well, this is what should. Again, this word should. Right. This should be happening because that's what his body's doing. So this is what I should be doing. And so then if 1. If their sexual drive isn't like that too, if the marriage relationship, there isn't this, like, emotional connection that's happening, this emotional intimacy, then sex every three days. Or maybe they just got in an argument, maybe someone just got hurt. Maybe someone just had a baby. Like, it's. That doesn't take into consideration all of the other external factors that are going on emotionally and physically. Like, between these two people.

Yeah.

And then I think another part of it then is, what if I'm traveling?

Right.

I've heard guys use this one while I'm traveling. And so, like, three days have gone past and I'm out of town. Like, what am I supposed to do? Like, I literally had a guy, heard a guy say, what am I supposed to do? Like, and he just paused like that.

Like.

Like, oh, okay. As if there was no other answer. Or other, like, possibility. Like a third option.

Yeah.

Sex, masturbation. Is there a third Option, maybe.

Yeah.

And I think that's the danger of this message, is that it assumes if I feel a desire or a need, that it must be met.

Yeah, that's dangerous.

And we wouldn't equate that, like, to eating. I mean, there is a pattern that because of how I've been eating my whole life, probably every five to six hours, I am going to get hungry. But if I assume that, well, that that hunger then means I must meet that need, and it doesn't even really matter how I meet it, because while I'm hungry and I can just justify eating garbage or junk food all day long. Well, I was hungry, like. Well, that's not going to fly. When I go to the doctor and my cholesterol levels are through the roof and I'm unhealthy, It's like I've. I've equated a desire or a need with something I feel is a need that, well, then I have a right to meet it however I can. And I. I just think what we're trying to recognize as human beings, whether men or women, married or single, is that we all feel desires, and we don't want to just assume that, well, that's a legitimate desire. That those desires might be coming out of emotional unhealth. They might be coming from other unmet needs that now is expressing itself in a desire for a way to cope with the pain or to medicate how I'm feeling. And that's just a trap, I think, that all of us can get in. In our brains and in our life. It's like, well, I'm feeling something. I need to go meet that need versus taking a time out. And maybe like, what Jenna Reimersma would say that u turn of looking inside to say, why am I feeling this? And what are legitimate options? Because maybe there is just more than option A or B. Either I have sex or I masturbate.

Yeah.

That there are alternatives to how I can learn to respond to things that I'm feeling or desiring in my body.

Yeah.

Are we answering this question also primarily in the context of, like, sexual addict and a couple that's working through sexual addiction?

Yeah.

Yeah. So you've heard me tell this story before, but while I was getting my vasectomy, I was talking to the urologist. He started a conversation.

Every good joke starts, right?

So I was actually like, while the procedure was happening, he started to talk and talking to me, said, oh, yeah, you work with sex addicts. Right. I got a couple questions for you. I'm like, okay.

The irony of what's happening, Right.

So we were having this conversation and I had a question for him along the lines of this. And basically what his response was is that our body also produces based upon use. And so for the sexual addict, if you're acting out daily, every couple days, whatever the frequency is, your body's also producing based upon the usage.

Yeah.

And so, like, you're almost then creating this scenario, like creating the scenario that you're having these physical urges or the. Or even the, like, the byproduct of like this fluid buildup. And now what are you going to do with it? Right. But like, if in the acting out pattern, like, you are creating this and perpetuating it, and then if now all of a sudden you're using your wife as an excuse, like to perpetuate it, like, you're just, you're creating this. And it's not necessarily even that this is what's healthy, but this is the pattern that you've created. It's the appetite that you've created.

And that's exactly where I think it becomes so damaging to women and in a marriage because the husband can bring that perspective of live this need. And, you know, we're already underscoring it's not a need, not a need. But if we've learned to think of it as a need that needs to be met every 72 hours.

That's how God created my body.

Right. But we haven't realized, like, well, maybe since the age of 12, I've started to masturbate at that time. And for years, if not decades now, that's been my pattern. And just what you're saying, Bob, it's something we've created. And now we're putting that expectation onto a spouse that never agreed to that, you know, to that pattern in our lives. And so we're just asking them to meet a need that we've created and that may not be healthy for the relationship at all. Now, some couples listening to this, maybe that is about the frequency of their marriage. And if you're good with that, like, we're not trying to say that that's bad. If you're in your marriage having sex about every three days, great. If that's a good pattern for you, and we're going to get more into this later, but, like, that's your pattern. Great. We just don't want to see in a marriage a wife feeling like it's now my role to meet a need that they've spent 30 years creating. Yeah.

I think one of the things too off of our episode with Sheila and thinking about this too, that this isn't just a message that specifically wives will hear from their husbands. This is also a message they hear from the stage of churches or from books that they. Something to consider too, that you might be inadvertently shaming this wife. Because if I'm not meeting this every three days, but my husband is acting out with pornography or having affairs or whatever the message is going to be, it's my fault. I'm not living up to this quote unquote standard, therefore this is why my marriage is falling apart.

Yeah.

And you, you are destroying that person in that moment with that message. You truly are. So I think the spouse like both get them both get, you know, and I. Cause I. We Talked to Rosie McKinney a few episodes back too, about this idea that men get into this lane of thinking that I am single minded and I can't actually control this urge, therefore I need to just justify it all the time where it's like sex good. And that's the only thing a man can think of that minimizes the value. And I mean the man being created in God's image, the intelligence he has, whatever it may be. So this has, I think, reaching to both spouses, tons of shameful and harmful messages for sure.

Yeah.

You sound like you had more.

I was gonna wait for you to act.

Okay, cool. So the next question then. And this is getting into what our friend Mo Isom has called sexpectations. And so how does this perspective set up couples for potential disappointment when it comes to sex in their marriage?

So I think, right, the expectation, that's, I think the key here, this is.

My favorite part about having you on here is you dissect the words in the context of every question.

It's the expectations. And if one, if the expectations are based off of like this physiological pattern that we've already established, maybe based off of years of addiction and not using sex in a healthy way, but using it as a way to act out. So like, if, if the expectation is based off of that, then we're kind of setting ourselves up for trouble. But if the expectation is based off of a conversation, like the expectation is, is based off of Nick, what you're saying, like, hey, this is healthy for us, then that's different. But, but if the expectation is built off of a misguided presupposition of what it should be, then yeah, then the husband is going to be thinking, well, this is what I should be getting. The wife's going to Be thinking, this is what I should be giving. And, like, when those things don't meet up, then let's just say that on the third day, right, that, like, they have friends over and then the friends leave and they have to clean up after them, and then they're exhausted and you know what I mean? And they don't have sex. Well, then the husband, like, he's laying there in bed all irritated because he didn't get some. And then the wife is laying there feeling like, oh, my gosh, I let my husband down, but I'm so exhausted and I can't think about anything except.

For I hope he doesn't. Hope he doesn't ask me for it because I don't want to disappoint him, because we talked about this. And then there's this internal circle that.

Goes that it's not based off of their relationship and, like, the flow of life, but it's based off of just this expectation.

And I think that's the disappointment then that the husband can feel. And I've heard this in my own life, particularly in my season of being addicted to pornography and married, is that when it wasn't happening regularly enough for me, I would get this internal message that says, she's not meeting my needs, which has all kinds of real destructive concepts for me that I'm now using to kind of turn towards my wife with blame. And so a, it's that I'm still calling it a need, and I haven't questioned where that need comes from. And I've turned the role of sex into being primarily about meeting my needs. So I don't say to myself, oh, I missed an opportunity to have a deeply meaningful connection with my spouse that was mutually enjoyable and fun. No, I'm saying, she didn't meet my needs. So there's that dynamic. And then just the final disappointment of, like, I don't matter, that that now becomes a negative message that I'm hearing, all based around a false standard of how often I should be getting my needs met. So I think when we start to unpack that you just go, wow, we've maybe attached a lot of meaning to something that we find value in. And when it doesn't happen, then couples can really beat themselves up or turn with that blame perspective towards the other, saying, why don't you care about me?

And I think it sets it up for comparison. Like, I think, I know we've had a lot of conversations even inside of staff here, that there's this natural assumption that other people have a better sex life than I do. And I don't exactly know where that comes from. It's probably culture. But also we a lot of times equate the amount or level of sex in a marriage to the health of that marriage, which is those two do not equal each other. Like, one couple can have sex once a month and be way healthier than a couple that's having it 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 times a week. Because that could be complete. Like as you were talking about earlier, motivated by this addiction and you're using your spouse as basically as I think as Dr. Ted has coined it, like, as a masturbation machine at that point, which, that's really kind of. That's just really hard to hear that kind of language. But really that's what's happening. And so I think that there's this comparison where maybe there's a couple who feels close and feels connected, but only has sex once a month. And they look at these other, you know, they hear the message and they look at other couples that they know are having more sex and they think, wow, we're not a healthy couple. And then shame can just jump in there. It's like all these openings that shame can just jump in when it comes to believing this. But this myth, really.

Yeah. And that's that line, I don't know if the one you're referring to the very beginning, that that frequency does not equal health.

It's one of them.

That's not the one. We'll come to it.

Yeah.

Frequency does not equal health. And yeah, I mean, you and I have talked about this, you know, even just personally hanging out, talking about, like, okay, what is, like, what does this look like? And so if the expectation is that 72 hours equals health, then we're also missing all of these other opportunities for connection.

Right.

Because like, what if you guys are exhausted but you still want to connect? Can't you cuddle? Like, can't. Can't you feel valued and give value through non sexual physical touch? But that option kind of isn't there. If the expectation is that we're showing value and receiving value through sex. Every, you know, frequency, whatever.

Yep.

Yeah. So here's kind of a flip of the perspective and a question that probably many of our listeners have never heard asked or talked about. But I think it's great that we discuss it. Why isn't there a similar myth for women? Because, I don't know, culturally, any myth, like, well, women must have this sexual release every so often to stay healthy. Like, why is there no corollary for women.

Yeah, definitely a loaded question. One of them that I think that maybe culturally is challenging is that if men have a high sex drive, that it's equated with, like, virility and health. And if women have a high sex drive, it's kind of like, ooh, are you okay? And, and so like that myth, then, then we don't. Like, we're almost straying away from the idea that a woman may actually have, like, as high of a libido, if we want to use that word. Right. As. As a male counterpart. But. But we don't think about that way. I mean, like, we use words like, like stud versus slut. Right. I mean, that's like this slut shaming kind of cultural thing of, like, if you have a high sex drive, it's a negative thing, but if you're a man, you have a high sex drive, then, like, you're good.

Pound a brow. Way to go.

Yeah. And it's just. And it's not. And so it's not. It's not not, I think, fair in that sense. And so we may stray away from even having an expectation that, that a woman could even have sexual desires on, like, the frequency that. That isn't just based on, I don't know, her man. Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. I think when we were doing module 1A, PSAP, Adrian Hickman, and he kind of made it as like a passing comment, and I, I would guess he's right, is that he asked the question, do you know who made this perspective up? He's like, it's probably a man, you know, and it's true. Like, it is true. There is some biology stuff. So there's definitely some, like, reasons that people can, like, feel like this is very founded. But I think that that's a pretty. I would guess that's an accurate assessment that this came from a male perspective.

Well, and I think it's rooted in that cultural and even church perspective that we've discussed in a couple of the recent podcasts that just kind of says, well, men are sexual and women are emotional or relational. And those are really unfair stereotypes because men are emotional too, and men have relational needs, just as women are also sexual beings. Because God created all of us, male and female, in his image, designed us all with sexual organs and sex chemicals in our brain, and, and designed our bodies to respond to sexual touch and pleasure. And so I think the reason there's not a corollary is because we have lost sight of. Of the male and female reality. And that's not to say men and women are the same. That's not to say that men and women's bodies or brains respond the same, because there are differences. But I think, by and large, we live at a time that is just completely devalued or ignored women's sexuality, that there is a very healthy side that women are sexual beings, just like there's a very healthy side that men are emotional beings. And taking those realities seriously, I think is a big part of. Of the growth that needs to happen. Yeah.

I think most sex, at most male sex addicts view their penis as the center of the sexual universe. And so, like, to think outside of that.

Yeah.

You know, would be to, like, what you're saying, attribute. There's a. There's a sexual value to what my wife may or may not want. And. And. But we. But in general, the sexual addict does not think beyond.

Yeah.

Like the center of their sexual universe and what their needs, wants, whatever, are. And so it's like, it's. Maybe it's not even an afterthought of what the reality might be for their spouse.

A great irony in this question in this conversation, and I think it was Jay Stringer who first said it, and I've said it a couple times on the podcast, that of the two genders, there's one that has one part of their body that is primarily and only for sexual climax. And it's the woman, it's the clitoris. It's literally. That's all it's there for is sexual pleasure, and God did that. And that, to me, directly implies that women should have sex and should have climax, and it's a part of this beautiful thing that God's created. So I just think it's just this interesting irony for me that of the two genders, it's actually a woman that has that. Okay, so we have kind of covered this a little bit, but let's get more specific. What are subtle messages that men and women and think struggling or addicted men and women and then also betrayed women and men. What does this communicate to them? What are these subtle messages that this myth can communicate to people?

Yeah. If I don't. If I don't meet this standard, there's something wrong with me, which is the big thing on both sides of it.

Yeah.

Like, if I don't meet this standard, there's something wrong with me. Why don't I want it more? Or why do I want it so much, you know? Or like, why. Why am. Why do I feel like unequally kind of Horny, for lack of a better term, like, with my spouse. Like, why are we meeting up? Are we. Are we supposed to be together? Are we a good fit? You know, I mean, like, all of the stuff that comes from it. But it's the. Like, I don't meet this. What's wrong with me.

I think obligation. The. The perspective that obligation sex is good, which, you know, I wouldn't say that if you would have asked me. We've talked about it before, or. And I know this. I keep going back to this interview with Sheila Ray Grigoire, but that just. I felt like it opened some new perspectives for me or put some language to some things. And so she talked about that the female body. If. If. If a woman continues to do obligation sex over and over and over, over a period of time, her body will physically respond as if she's been sexually abused, that the vaginal wall will tighten, and that sexual arousal just doesn't happen as easily. That was, like, mind shattering to me. But I think that that's one of the things that it communicates, is that obligation sex is good or you should do that even if you're not in the mood. And I think about even conversations, even the three of us have had the question. Sometimes people ask the question, like, what is okay in the bedroom? Are toys okay? Like, bondage stuff? Different things like that. And the perspective that we so often land on is if both spouses feel cared for and feel valued and feel comfortable, then. Then we would say that, that that's something that maybe is okay for your relationship. And I think the same thing can be true just when you're approaching sex in general. Like, maybe it should be something where you're not just doing it every 72 hours or just because one of the spouses feel horny. Like, what if we started to pursue a marriage where both of us enter into it when we feel valued, when we feel comfortable, when we feel safe? Now, I'm not saying that because I know with. I know I'm kind of going on and on, but I think if you just had a kid or, you know, my wife is running around with two young boys, like, she's tired at the end of the day. You know what I mean? Like, when I come home, my wife is going to be like, I've been waiting all day to have sex with you. She's just like, please take the boys and let me go upstairs for a minute. Like. And that made her sound like a bad mom. She's not a bad mom. But, like, things like that they're just rhythms. I feel like that's something you and I have talked about, Bob, a lot, rhythms in a marriage.

And I think that's the reality we want to say about marriage is it is highly unlikely that both spouses will have the same desire for sex. In terms of frequency. I mean, once in a while, maybe a marriage it is. But by and large there will be one that wants sex more often and one that is comfortable with it less often. And we can stereotype that to be, well, it's always the man that wants more and the woman that wants less. But that's not necessarily true, that it could be either direction. I think the important thing to acknowledge is that's a reality of marriage, that one of us will likely be interested in it more often than the other. And that's part of the dance of marriage that we learn. Okay, how as a couple together are we going to navigate this? Because there will be the need for compromise, for communication. I don't mean compromise like your standards or your values, but in terms of, okay, this maybe isn't the frequency I want, but I care about you and I'm willing and I'm open, like, so here's how we've learned to meet each other in the middle. And that's just a part of the marriage dance. So I think with this, those are the conversations more married couples need to have. Because I find a lot of couples just aren't talking about it. Like he's always pressuring and she's always saying no. And they've never really talked about how could we have a healthier relationship that navigates this difference of desires. Because that is just common in marriages. When you asked the question though, about the subtle messages, the two things that came to mind for me and you mentioned this, Trevor, but I wanted to re. Emphasize it. I think it's the subtle message that these desires are stronger than I am, they're bigger than me, they're beyond my capability to handle. So the only answer is back to what you said, Bob, option A or B, sex or masturbation. Because beyond that there's just no possibility I can control it. And that is, that is such a deflating message towards our ability to grow, to become disciplined, to practice self control and where we're struggling to believe that, well, just because I'm maybe at a place now, I do feel trapped. I mean, if, if a guy or a gal is in sexual addiction, they maybe do feel like it's bigger than them and it has been out of their control. But that's not to say that it always will be and that it always has to be. There can be growth and change and transformation. So. So we need to guard against that message. And I think the other message is just the word entitlement. The every three days to me is really rooted in entitlement. That I have needs, I have rights about how those needs should be met. And if you, as my spouse, aren't helping me with those rights and needs that I'm entitled to, then I'm also entitled to be angry at you, disappointed, to somehow treat you differently because I was entitled to something I didn't get. And that entitlement message, whether it's about sex or just how we treat one another, if entitlement becomes part of any relationship, it's going to be damaging that relationship. So we really need to guard against, I think, that subtle message.

And that's what pornography teaches. Yeah, Specifically our sexualized and pornified culture teaches. It's about me and my. I mean, just. I mean, don't think about it, but consider the perspective that pornography teaches that it is about the male climax. Yeah. Period. I mean, that's. That is the way it's presented, the narrative.

I think about, like, people that in the morning, like, they're a jerk because they haven't had their coffee yet. And so the only solution is that they have to have their coffee.

Right, right.

Because otherwise they're a jerk. Don't talk to me. I haven't had my coffee.

I have a mug that. That has the, like, different levels where it's like, don't talk to me yet. And then the second one is getting closer. And then when it's gone, it's like, okay, now you can talk.

Now you can talk to me. Yeah. And like, it. It's like, it's ironic and it's funny and whatever. You know, I think part of it is just that it's in the morning and we're not fully awake yet. But the point is, it's like, we have this thinking, though. It's like, I haven't had my coffee. Don't talk to me. The only solution here is that I need coffee. We don't think about possibly, hey, have you thought that maybe you have an unhealthy relationship with caffeine? Yeah.

Or you didn't sleep well last night or you ate poorly yesterday.

There's other options. And so, like, the perspective with this of, like, if I don't have sex, if you don't give me what I'm entitled to, I'm going to die. And the only solution is more sex. Right. Like, that's the perspective. It's like, no, maybe you have an unhealthy relationship with sex and your spouse, and maybe you're angry because there's emotions that you haven't learned to deal with.

Right.

And I mean, that obviously comes back to what we do in. In dealing with sexual addiction as we know it's driven by pain and fear and how we've learned to process life.

Yeah.

So you're using coffee as a way to cope with that. You're using sex as a way to cope with that. Like, the solution is not more coffee and more sex. Yeah, the solution.

Not more cowbell.

We know it's not work. It's not one of those. Got a fever? I'm not going to do a impersonation. But yeah, like, that's not the only solution.

Yeah.

Like, the other solution is maybe I should step back and take a look at this and figure out there's more going on behind the scenes, like, emotionally for me.

Yeah. So let's talk about that. What are some of the practical ways we can change this thinking in our marriages or even just in our own brains, you know, for single people listening? We are kind of putting this in the context of marriage, but I think singles battle this as much, if not more. Like, I got this need. I just need to figure out a way to meet it. Like, so how can we change our thinking about how we approach this conversations?

Like, so in a married. In the context of marriage, like, talking about what you actually really have in your expectations and. And what are you also doing to connect emotionally? Right. I mean, we spend so much time talking about the emotional intimacy has to be a foundation on which sexual intimacy is built. And so what are you doing for emotional intimacy if your only way of connecting. I've heard couples talk about this. Well, that's just how we connect. Like, okay, but was that it? Like, that's, again, that's the only thing you're doing. So. So some practical ways, like, talk about what your expectations are for frequency, both of you. And if one person. And this might sound unfair, but really the person that has, like, the lower frequency expectations, like, that has to be where you start.

Yeah.

Because otherwise it moves into entitlement. Otherwise it moves into obligatory sex.

Yeah.

And like, but that's where you need to start because you think, well, no, I'm going to compromise and you're going to compromise. Well, like, if we play that you're going to compromise by getting naked and Laying on a bed and letting me do what I want. Right, that just sounds off. So this sounds bad. Yeah, sounds unhealthy. And so like I'd say have this conversation and start there. Like, if one person isn't comfortable with whatever the frequency is. Okay, what are you doing to develop emotional intimacy? Are you spending time together? Like, have you ever thought about, instead of having sex one night, cuddling, not cuddling, as a way to get to sex, not a stepping stone, but as a way to just connect emotionally?

Yeah, I think. And I haven't fully developed this perspective or thought, but I so often think there are so many different areas of discipleship that become a community thing. And like, talking about sex inside of marriage with other married couples shouldn't be all bad. Like, we should be able to have conversations about, about sex and not just like, well, how many times are you doing it this week? How many times you done it this week? It's not like a comparison thing. But there's, we gotta be able, there's, there's gotta be a way. That's my idealistic brain. There's gotta be a way that we can get to that point where we can talk about it and talk about what it looks like and be able to encourage each other in sexual health in our marriages. Like we encourage each other with parenting tips. Like, why can't we encourage sexual health tips in marriages? You know? And so I think that including people is a part of it and attached to that is your own healing, dealing with, you know, as Julie Slattery talks about it, we all have a level of sexual brokenness in our life. Whether that looks like on the anorexic side where I don't desire sex or don't need it, or feel like it should be a part of my life or whatever. And then the people who are just like, overdo it all the time. It has to be everything. So. So I think that identifying where I'm at on that spectrum and then taking some steps, one of the great ways is doing group, going through counseling, going through a resource, something guiding you through it.

I think in a marriage it's finding ways to honestly communicate how we're feeling. I mean, I think it's appropriate for a husband to say, I'm just, I'm really feeling a lot of desire for you today. And in a non pressuring way. Not like so you know you're going to be ready, but just to try to honestly communicate it's because of this happened, or maybe even acknowledging. I think it's because I'm really low, and I've had some of this in the last few years in my marriage. Well, I'll recognize I'm in a really low place emotionally, which makes me want to use sex to meet that need. And in caring, bringing that up with my wife, it's helped me to say it. Not in a way like, so can you meet that need? It's helping her understand what I'm feeling, engaging in the conversation where I'm able to think through, and she's able to help me think through what's really at the root of this desire. And, and is, you know, is sex really what you need? And actually that's been tremendously helpful because it, it not only gives me better perspective on how to handle that need, but it gives my wife some perspective of what are the things that I've had to learn to change and overcome. And she can kind of see where, oh, it's not just that you always had this high sex drive. It's like those are the things that, that connected in your past. And I can be a part now of your recovery by helping you navigate those things better. And so that when we are intimate as a couple sexually, it's because it's what we want and desire for each other, not just because, well, I'm horny today. The thing that comes to mind for me, like with singles that are listening, you know, I find it remarkable in our culture, especially for, I think, young single men, we live in such a sex saturated culture and there's still a belief that, like, we can, we can have our cake and eat it too. Like, we can just kind of expose our brains to a very sexually driven culture. And then at the end of the day, still avoid masturbation, still avoid acting out where we need to realize, like, this is kind of a fire in terms of that, that if we're adding fuel to it all day by being on, you know, questionable Twitter feeds or Instagram accounts, and we're watching shows that have, you know, sexual content and we're hearing about it on the radio, like, if, if that's kind of what's filling our mind, like we've just been heaping wood on the fire, right? But then we're expecting not to get burned, right? Like, well, I can contain it. When really the truth is this is a progression in your brain, that biologically the brain knows what the outcome is supposed to be. And so the more we rev the engine, the more the brain goes, well, let's go to the place I've been designed to Go to. So I think if we're in a single place, it's not just learning to say no to the desire to masturbate. It's analyzing all the other things I'm doing to either let that fire, you know, gently be put out as long as I'm single, and as long as that's God's will in my life versus what am I doing to just create more and more desire, because then resisting that will just get more and more challenging. So I. I think there are a few things like that we could think about what is fueling this desire, married or single, and addressing those root issues or the underlying causes and not just making it about. My physical body must have this because there's almost always more to it than just the physical side.

Sure. Yeah. I think another way that just kind of struck me to package this is that arousal doesn't mean that you need to act on arousal. So in other words, if you're single or married, just because you were aroused, right. By something you saw, by something you thought of, by the temperature of the breeze in the room. Right. Like, just because you were aroused doesn't mean that, like, okay, I was aroused. Now I have to act on it. And goes back to something you were saying earlier, Nick. I don't remember what it was.

It was.

But it was really great.

It was hunger.

Right. And food.

Yeah, exactly. Just because we have. Yeah, just because we have the urge or, you know, the physiological or biological, you know, stimuli doesn't mean that we have to act on that. And. And also then to say that arousal is not bad, that there. We talk about this. It is amoral. There is no moral value to arousal. And so married or single, like, you're aroused. That's okay. Like, acknowledge it if, you know, speak it to your spouse, you know, but that doesn't mean that you have to follow through with anything. And so I just want to use that word because we're talking about, like, three days, you know, stimulation, all that. But even the word arousal, like, just because, like, your heart starts pumping and, like, you know, like, you're aroused, doesn't mean that you have to follow through on it. But you can still acknowledge it. Yeah, like, you can still process through it. You can still say, okay, I wonder why that is. Are there other things going on, like, but we don't have to act on.

Yeah, I think kind of a connection to that. Something I wrote down, I wanted to also say for this question is I, at one point I was really overweight and went through this change Where I started to eat healthier and I lost all this weight. And what actually happens in your body is there is an element of it where your stomach starts to shrink a little bit to where your appetite is not what it once was.

Every guy listening to this just thought, oh, no, is my penis gonna shrink just to say that's not where Trevor's going.

I'm not gonna let you derail this, okay.

Because.

Great attempt, sir. But I think the same is true, that there is hope, that with that retraining your brain and retraining just even physiologically, this desire, because you talked about at the beginning, that idea of we're training ourselves right. Over and over the every 72 hours kind of thing, that as you get into group, as you start getting healthy, as you start to find the root of what is motivating the desire to act out, you're also going to see the desire, not necessarily that, like the intensity or the desire for sex or climax is going to away. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is, though, that you're going to start to train your brain that it doesn't feel like it needs to happen. Where that arousal.

Appetites can change.

Absolutely. That's what I'm trying to do.

Appetites can be modified.

Yeah, totally. I knew where you're going. I just knew where everybody else was thinking.

Those are honest questions, guys. I mean, because those are fears related to our view of masculinity that, well, these things are what make me masculine. And if they change, I'm less of a man. And that is honestly part of what has to be confronted in this change is what are even the ideals I hold on to, what it means to be a man. Because if I'm no longer acting out sexually every 72 hours, a part of my brain might fear, well, am I as manly? Well, I haven't had sex in several weeks or. Or climaxed. Maybe I'm losing it.

Or does my wife love me or want me?

Yeah. Those fears are not actually rooted in our bodies or true needs. Those are rooted in fears related to what we've learned from a warped culture.

Yep. Yeah. Value attached to whether sexual activity or climax or erection or I mean value attached to those things because they. For the addict or for a lot of people, they represent value.

Absolutely. Yeah. So this is a question that we get all the time. And I know it could be easy to kind of be lighthearted, but I think this question is motivated a lot of times out of this comparison. Or am I good enough or is my marriage healthy? Or you mean fill in the blank. And the question is just like, straight up, how often should couples have sex?

Yeah, I was going to make a joke, but I'm not going to because you said, don't be light hearted. Yeah. I think that my first thought is that there is really, like, in health, in life, like, there's no, there's no static. You've heard me use this word a ton in our podcast. Like, it's dynamic. Health is dynamic. And so there is no quantity. That is. This is the set quantity. And we do this for the rest of our lives.

Yes.

I mean, Nick, you run a lot and you run every. You know, there's an average amount of times that you run in a week, an average amount of distances. But. But that's not the only way that you can approach. I mean, you can.

It changes.

It changes, you know, and. Because health is dynamic. And so just first to say that whatever a couple says, hey, I think this is. Probably feels right for us right now, doesn't mean that that's like, what you do.

Right.

Like, you, you still, you still talk about it and you still act accordingly to, like, the age of your bodies or whether someone's sick or not or whether your kids are home or whether. You know what I mean? There's so much stuff happening in life, but you should, and you should also be intentional about it. And that may mean for some people, planning it, like looking at your calendar for the week and saying, hey, you know what? We see you got a couple nights here where I know we're not going to be exhausted and we have time where we're going to be able to connect emotionally and like, put it on the calendar.

Right. And I have a friend who says plan sex is sexy.

It is.

It's like, it's something that you actually together, make a decision that it's going to happen. And there's this. We went through a marriage resource that was talking about planned. Allows both spouses to prepare for it mentally, emotionally, physically. Yeah. And so. But I love that because it doesn't feel sexy. That is planned. It needs to be spontaneous. It needs to be out of nowhere.

No, that's culture. Have you had children? For the moment, spontaneous.

On the kitchen counter? Yeah.

No, we eat off the kitchen counter. People like kitchen utensils.

The way I would.

Okay.

The way I would say, I think. How often should couples have sex? As often as they want. And I mean that intentionally. As often as they. Not the world around them. Not in comparison. Not just driven by addiction that they, as a couple, in mutual agreement, have been as they've learned to talk and communicate and be aware of one another's needs and desires. It's as often as they and want that there is a desire for that. Not as often as they feel obligated to or as often as they must. As often as they want. And so there are couples in their season of life that it may be daily or multiple times a week, and that's awesome. But as Bob said, it may not always be a few years down the road or a couple of kids later, things may adjust, and there may be other couples that it's. It's once or twice a month, and for them, that's what they want and they're good with it.

Yeah.

Now, I do think we've had some podcasts on this. We do want to mention again that sexual anorexia is a thing. And so if there's never sex or we're talking a few times a year, you're definitely veering into the area of something is amiss. Now, that's. I want to be careful. That doesn't mean that the. The less interested spouse is at fault, because it could be there's still a sexual addiction in the marriage where there's so much trauma and hurt and betrayal. Both spouses don't feel safe to have more sex. But what I am saying by that sexual anorexia is that is as much a sign that something needs to be faced as when sexual addiction becomes known. So if it's not happening at all, we want to address that. But otherwise it's such a spectrum. And if it's what we want and we're good with in our season of life, whether it's daily or monthly, like, that's great if it's for you and appreciate what you have and. And find that rhythm with your spouse.

And talk about it, man. Like, just have conversations with your spouse about it. I mean, that's one of the things that I feel like I've learned from you and Rebecca is through our podcast together, through conversations, we've had just that idea that you like having conversations about it. It's gonna help. And it's something that far too couples. Too many couples do not do. Like, they should do it more. And it's just a good encouragement to sit down and have conversations about it. Maybe not right after rejection or right after you had sex. Like it's at your weekly planning meeting where you're talking through your calendar, but having conversations about it to where both spouses can feel heard and understood because you are probably, as we've already mentioned a few times, like, you're going to have one spouse who wants it more and one spouse who wants it less. Like, there can be a work toward a middle somewhere where you find that in that dynamic dance we've talked about.

Yeah. And the reality too, that if you live to a ripe old age, at some point you're going to stop having sex. So if that is the only thing that is a measure of, like, connection or quality of relationship. I mean, granted, science might. Science might catch up with us by then, and maybe you'll be having sex until you're 120, I don't know. But most likely at some point you're going to stop having sex. And so we like, the only measure of health in your marriage cannot be that because you could also have an accident. Like, there's all sorts of things to where, like, maybe physiologically you can't even have sex anymore. Like, so even to say, whatever the patterns are, even if they're healthy patterns, it's not guaranteed that it'll even be there for the rest of your life. So how could we possibly build our relationship health on something that might not even be there?

Pizza is a gift from God.

Absolutely.

I cannot eat it if I want to be healthy. Oh, that's like, I'm just adding to that perspective. Like, I don't need it in order to function or be a full human.

Yeah, it's true.

Do I want it?

Yeah. So much. I want to pick up on something, Trevor, about how important communication is. Because I think this is an area when in your marriage, and as we've said, it's the most common thing that there are not two equal desires for frequency of sex. So there's. There's an area there that you differ, really listen to one another. Because I think a lot can be learned. If a husband asks a wife, like you say, you'd be fine with sex once a month. Is there any reason or why would you say that? And maybe the wife reveals like, I am just so stinking tired of raising our kids. At the end of the day, that's the last thing I want is someone else touching me. And if the husband really listens and we don't want to be in a place we're trying to manipulate our spouse for more sex. But if they said, what if once a week I took the kids all day to the park or did this or I did all the driving and that spouse, maybe the wife then can respond like, well, that might help. I mean, I'm not making any promises, but. But if we listen and hear. And on the flip side, maybe the one who wants it more often, the spouse asks, is there a reason you want sex that frequently? What does it do for you? And if it's just, well, I enjoy it, maybe that's all there is to it. But I think a lot of times we might hear someone say, well, this really makes me feel connected to you. And so then that spouse could ask, is there anything else we do that also makes you feel connected? And they reveal, like, when you affirm me and appreciate me, that actually is similar. And that spouse, like, oh, it's not that you always need sex. For me, what you're looking for is connection and affirmation. And there are a lot of ways I can provide this. So meeting in the middle doesn't just mean equal numbers of sex. Meeting in the middle might be, I'm learning what you need and you're learning what I need. And we're finding ways to meet that. And when we're meeting one another's emotional, relational needs out of love, the byproduct of that will tend to be physical.

Connection through sex because you're building intimacy in that conversation.

Really, really listen.

Yeah.

Yeah. Which is. Sorry, just like, just the reality of that. Right. That. That we might hear in this conversation, hey, like, I'm really exhausted from spending the whole day with the kids. And if our thought is. And you alluded to this, like, if our thought is, okay, I need to take the kids so that we can have more sex, then we're not doing what you just said, that it's about intimacy, emotional intimacy. So, like, the thinking then should be, I need to take the kids so that my wife has time and feel supported. And we're in this together.

Right.

And then the byproduct of that is going to be better connection, more support, more emotional intimacy with sex maybe built.

On top of things.

So the goal is connection. The goal isn't sex.

The goal is caring for your spouse.

And you said listening too, right? We're not listening for how to get more sex. We're listening for how to care for each other.

And what's interesting, we haven't actually touched on this. If I've missed it, I'm sorry, but I don't think we've touched on the, like, the. Sorry, I'm blanking a little bit. It's not just the frequency of sex, but, like, the quality of sex will increase with intimacy for having those conversations. Maybe you don't increase in the amount of sex you're having every single month. But the quality of that sex is going to be better based on the. That being built on top of that intimacy. And so I think there's that, too. That shift in the perspective is we're not after quantity. We're after, like, the quality of the connection there.

No.

Yeah.

So, guys, in a lot of these questions, we've focused on the couple, the individual kind of those private conversations that take place as we grow in this. But let's. As we get towards this last question here, let's take it more to that community perspective or church perspective. What could we do to change this narrative as a community or as a church? Because I think narratives exist not only in individuals, but in the societies we're a part of. And so if we recognize this is also a message that's in the society I'm a part of, whether my family or my church, what could we do to change that narrative?

Yeah, maybe take sex off of the pedestal. Like, it's not, you know, it's not. Like, that's not the place that it belongs. Like, what belongs up there is health, relationship, connection, true intimacy. True emotional. Yeah, intimacy with, like, this part of it. Right. And so, yeah, having health up there as the goal. The goal is health. And, like, that health thing gets played out in all sorts of areas. And so, like, we should be talking about how we approach our finances just as much as we're talking about how we approach our sex or how our sex. How we approach sex, how we approach, like, how we prepare meals and the food that we eat, you know, like, all of this. But it's like, sex isn't. Isn't this. This thing that we are, like, trying to attain to health is where we're trying to get to, AKA sanctification. And. And so then sex becomes part of that conversation.

Yeah, one of the. And this is the. The thing that you said when we were at a men's event, you asked the question, if you don't have sex, will you die? And you asked it, like, with that kind of tone, and everyone kind of chuckles, and it's like, but no, really, will you die? And the answer is no. And I think that now it's not that we need to share this perspective from the front every single week. Like, just remember, if you don't have sex this week, you're not gonna die. Like, okay, thanks, Pastor Bob. He says that every week. But, you know, but I think that that message does need to get preached because that Message is so countercultural. It's so counterculture. Everything that we hear is that it needs to be sex. It needs to be any movie you watch, have you ever seen, except the ones, the movies that maybe presented as this like awkward first time kind of thing. Like all of the sex scenes in movies are, they know exactly what they want, when they want it, climaxing at the same time, all of it. So this is super unhealthy perspective. A way to fight back is to present that you don't need it in order to live or to even thrive in life. Like, if Jesus was fully human and fully God and he lived. And I know this can be something that's so used to bash people, but I believe that it's true that Jesus lived a life where he didn't have sex. Unless you watch the Da Vinci Code and think that that's reality. He lived a full life.

Yeah.

And he lived a holy and healthy life. No, absolutely. And I think another thing too that has been really practical and helpful is even saying something even to my wife. I know this has helped because you've talked about plan abstinence before, especially if you're in recovery together, just starting. That's a really difficult place to be if you just take sex off the table intentionally. But I even think communicating in moments of like, hey, can I just rub your back right now? I just want you to know at the end we're not going to have sex. I just want to rub your back or your feet or I just want to talk to you or do something with you. I think that that says that sex is not the pinnacle of intimacy. It's that connecting with you is whether really what I'm after. And I think that helps retrain couples.

Yeah, the non sexual, like touch, like non sexual embrace, all of that. And to use those words, hey, this is non sexual. Like I'm not. It's not even that this might lead to that. Like, this is not leading to that. This is just what this is. This is just me showing you affection. But I think we even see this, like what you're talking about in the movies. We even see this in Disney. Like the, the to use the word. But it's not what we've been referring to. The climax of like the connection between these two main characters in Disney is when they finally kiss at the end of the movie. Right, Right. Like, we're even kind of setting our kids up to say that this is the ultimate. This is what we're trying to get to. We're trying to get to that kiss.

Magical moment.

Because that kiss.

Pop. The rain's falling. Yes.

Yeah. Like, that represents where we're trying to get. As opposed to we're trying to get to mutual understanding and care and support and, like, just being there for each other and friendship and. Right, all of that. But we're in a sense, like, even through, you know, the cartoons that our kids are watching, like, we're kind of setting them up to say that this is what you're trying to get to.

I think on a culture or a community perspective, whether it's a family or our church, I think talking about this whole area of our desires is really key because every human being has desires and every human being has unmet desires that they're not entirely sure what to do with. And so particularly in the area of our sexuality, that's such a challenge when we're never even kind of trained. How do I deal with all these things? I feel. And so we over time just learn, well, I feel something, then I go do something. And so we could do a lot as parents, as pastors, as leaders to train on that. We all have desires. And. And then the two sides of. Let's analyze where those desires might be coming from. Is it part of our arousal template that was shaped by past trauma or wounds or family experiences? What are all the things that have shaped desires? Because when we understand what created or has shaped our desires is like, oh, this isn't just because I'm some uncontrollable sexual being. Like, this is a part of my development. And I can see it. So that's one half of the equation with desires. And I think then the other half is we can do a lot to train. How do we handle unmet desires in a way that isn't just about getting what we want or think we need? So better ways of reaching out for support, you know, creating community, having those outer circle habits that we talk about in our three Circles tool, saying, what can I do? Instead of going to this old habit that I view as unhealthy for me, what can I do instead that creates a sense of, well, being, peace, connection in my life. And whether that's a hobby or getting together with a friend or spending time listening to worship music, like, just what are all those healthy ways that any human being can handle their desires? Because I think if our cultural competency, if you will, of what we do with desires increased, this whole myth would start to lose its power. Because it's like, oh, that's just one more desire that I feel. But I've learned ways to deal with desires that it's not. I have some ability to handle them well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So to quote Bob, again, if you don't have sex, will you die? And the answer is no. That this is a myth and it comes from some good places, but also has some really harmful messages attached to it. And so we do need to work toward retraining our brain and looking and moving towards healthy relationships where sex is a part of the relationship, not the pinnacle. It's not the kiss at the end of the movie. It is just a part of the narrative and the flow that we have in our marriages. Bob, we love you. Thanks for being here.

Love you guys, too.

And wherever you're at on your journey, pure desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content, content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma. And lastly, never stop being healthy and.

You'Re not going to die.