215 - Free To Thrive w/ Ben Bennett

You're listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your safe place to find hope, healing, and freedom from sexual addiction, betrayal and relationship issues. Hello, hello, hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 215 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

I need, I need, I need. Gimme, gimme, gimme.

Oh, man, oh, man. I have it. It's somewhere. It's locked in my brain.

Dr. Marvin.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay.

What about Dr. Leo Marvin?

Okay.

Gosh, it's one of those movies where, like, I feel like I have to tell people how amazing it is. But also, like, there's some, like, salty language in there and there's like a couple scenes where it's like, those two old people on the boat are really mean.

Yeah.

But Justin, have you seen what About Bob?

Long time ago.

Okay. Long time ago. Okay.

I was thinking of that because my boys are finally old enough for. At the age I felt like it was okay to watch with them. So we've been going back through, like, we watched Groundhog Day, we watched what About Bob and just. It's fun to watch them laugh at the scenes that I remember. Like, especially there's certain scenes that now as an adult, you're like, oh, that's kind of corny. But I remember as a kid, I loved it. And watching them have that same, like, just burst out in these huge laughs, like, this is really fun. But yes, the. I need, I need, I need poor, poor Bill Murray.

Just, gosh, okay, I'm just, I have.

To say, needed some help.

I have to say it. My favorite line in the whole movie is when Dr. Marvin comes into the room and Bill Murray is in the same room with their son, and he goes, I just want some peace and quiet. The son says, or one of them says, I'll be quiet. I'll be quiet. And then his son goes, I'll be peace. They just die laughing.

That was one of the scenes I was talking about that my boys just. They laughed so hard that I'm like, I remember loving that as a kid.

Oh, my gosh. So, so good. Okay, well, I'm excited to see the tie in here because we have a great episode for you today. We have Ben Bennett, who just authored a new book called Free to Thrive, and it is out today. So, listener, we have a special deal for you at the end of the episode. But we had Ben on just to talk about this book he co authored with Josh McDowell and talked about what it Means to be free to thrive.

Yeah, yeah. Ben Bennett is a great guy. I mean, one of our Pure Desire authors co authored the Living Free Workbook for Young Adult Men for Single College Guys. Just has a powerful personal story. And with his connection to Josh McDowell, they together wanted to address some of these issues really related to how all of us pursue getting our unmet needs and longings fulfilled that often are what lead us to those unhealthy places. So the, you know, I need, I need, I need. There's I think, a part of all of us that kind of has that voice of I need, I need. But the truth is I think so many haven't recognized where the voice is coming from and what it's leading them into. And I think that's what this book Free to Thrive is going to do for so many people, and you'll hear Ben talk about it today, is help them understand where the voice is coming from. What are those longings that are going unmet and how has it led them into their unwanted behavior? And that's whether their unwanted behavior is, you know, as we talk about a lot, pornography and sexual things or everything else from fear, anxiety, workaholism, success, performance. I mean, just we're, we're all in this boat together and I think that's what Ben unpacks so well and what the book is all about. So I'm, I'm really excited for people to not only hear the podcast but hopefully then go and grab this book because I think it will really just be a significant tool for so many people.

Yeah, I mean a few, a few things before we get into it. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't. We're on all the major platforms. Follow us on social media, ear, desire, pdmi and also this episode will be up on YouTube. The full episode. A last little piece here before we get into it is that Ben is also one of the featured speakers at next month's Pure Desire Summit.

Yeah, we're coming up on it. I mean, right around the corner. Time to be together with those that are able to come to Portland. And I tell you, if September's weather is anything like August, it's going to be a beautiful weekend. Great time to be with like minded folks that are, you know, working on their own recovery or helping others on that road to recovery. And just seeing the way that health thrives when we're together, whether online or in person, I'm excited. I, you know, hear the team and the plans we're making and I just. Everything it's going to be a powerful weekend and we're glad that Ben's a part of it. So if, if listener, you haven't considered, you know, if you're still on that edge of, oh, should I do it? Like, whatever we can say we want you to come, we want you to be a part of it and we hope you'll sign up for the summit so soon.

Yeah. And the theme is that healing happens below the surface. So it's an exploration of our thoughts, beliefs, feelings, all of it. And so it's going to be great. If you do want to register, we do have two ways. In person, as Nick said, or the virtual as well. Just go to PureDesire.orgSummit and register today. Again, listener, before we get into this episode, we have a special deal at the end on Ben's new book. Here's our conversation talking about Ben Bennett's new book, Free to Thrive. Benny B. Welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast.

Hey, thanks for having me. So good to be with you all.

We love having you on. We're really excited about today's episode because your new book Free to Thrive is out today. Today your book is out and it's available for order and you wrote it with really this like random no namer guy named Josh McDowell. So really excited for you to put his name on the map with this book. Really appreciate that he needed some help. Yeah, absolutely. But you guys wrote this book to help people understand how our hurts, our struggles and our deepest longings can lead to a fulfilling life. So I love that paradigm shift that so many of us assume that those things are leading the other direction. But you're shifting that paradigm. So we're excited to hear about the book and we've got a special deal, as we've mentioned already in the intro, we got a special deal for you at the end of this episode for this book. So let's get going.

Yeah, good stuff. So, Ben, let's jump into it. Would love to hear just the ideas behind Free to Thrive. Why did you guys write the book? Where did the ideas come from? And we really want to know kind of some inside information like how much did you write and how much did Josh McDowell write? Like we want to know the arm wrestling match and who got what we.

Have arm wrestled before. So this is kind of a different kind of arm wrestling. Yeah. You know, after 75 plus years of combined ministry, granted, most of it is Josh. He has been in ministry for six years. I have been in ministry for 15 years. But we just started to see this Overwhelming amount of brokenness inside the church, outside the church, you know, struggles with Christians not looking or not being much better than struggles with non Christians. And so really just seeing a lack of holistic solutions, things people were trying weren't getting them out of, things that were deeply keeping them stuck. You know, as you all talk about the classic things people are told, whether it's confess more or memorize more scripture or just serve more in church, read the Bible more, those things are good, but they are not focused on the underlying factors that are driving people's struggles. And so people have tried those things, just trying to change their behavior. But there are deeper things that really drive everybody's behavior that holds them back. So Josh and I, through our own stories, both have done a lot of counseling and therapy and studying the Scriptures, and we've been set free of so many things. So we wanted to take these time tested biblical principles backed by psychological and neuroscientific research, and make them available to the world because we know that the world is really in crisis when it comes to all these struggles that people are experiencing. So that's what led to the writing of this book. Yeah.

I know if our listeners have heard you on some of our previous podcasts, that this connects in many ways to your own story, to your own journey of addressing the sexual brokenness in our own lives and recognizing those same themes. Like, we can. We can be trying harder all day to stop a behavior, and we can know all the right verses and we can understand all the right things not to do and yet still find ourselves struggling. And it's until we go to that deeper level and really address some of those things that maybe prior to this, we haven't been aware of how much they're driving us. Until then, we continue to stumble into the same behaviors. And so just kind of as a follow up, Ben, how much would you say your own personal journey and just your story influenced the way that you wrote the book and the topics that you guys chose to address?

I would say kind of what we did was based on looking at what does statistics show, what does research show, what do. What are other pastors and therapists? I mean, we met, we did surveys with hundreds of pastors seeing, like, what people are struggling with in their congregation. So Josh and I kind of looked at our stories and said, where are the overlaps in our story, what we have, what we have gone through and experienced freedom from and understanding from? And. And where do we feel like God has called us to speak out on this? Because we've experienced it ourselves and kind of have, to some extent, some authority on this of how we can actually. How we believe we can help other people. So we looked at that and kind of nailed down a significant amount of common struggles that people are experiencing in their mental health and in addiction and unresolved trauma and in relationships. And so there's quite a few struggles. I mean, in the book, there's like. But we expanded it because, you know, it's these core principles help people regardless of what struggle they're experiencing. In one of the chapters, we lay out like, 45 or 50 different symptoms that people can struggle with. Anxiety, stress, depression, anger. Yeah, 40 or 50 of them to help people just really start to break free.

Right. Yeah. I love the way that your current. I mean, your experience lines up with data, and it really does create that authority of here's things we've seen and that are happening in the church. And just like we talk about at Pure Desire, people come to us because of the presenting behavior. But when you get under the surface, like, the things that are leading to the behavior are common to really all people and can lead to all kinds of different things. And so I. I think that's what I love about this book, is it addresses that in a way that says if you're a human that struggles, you're going to find some. Some understanding here of what's going on and maybe some new handholds to actually make progress in a way that's different than what you've tried before.

Totally. So, I mean, it's easy to assume that someone's going to write a book about thriving because the opposite is happening. Right. And so I think you already touched on this, the research that you guys did. What are some of those trends that you saw? Like, what's the current state of life that you're seeing for people inside of the church and maybe even outside? And what are some of those trends that the research brought to light for you guys?

Yes, some of the top stats that we found that we write about in the book. One is that 70% of teens say anxiety and depression are major issues amongst their peers. Another one is that suicide is the second leading cause of death among teens and people in their early 20s. And I believe it's the third cause of death among people that are a bit older, 30s and 40s. Another is that 90% of men and 60% of women have sought out porn in the past month. And then a big one is that inside the church is that. And this is from Barna research only 30% of pastors feel very equipped to help people deal with their mental and emotional struggles. And so you've got this vast amount of brokenness inside the church, outside the church, and then a significant under equipping of how do we speak into this? How do the scriptures, I mean, pastors being the most trained in the scriptures, not knowing how the scriptures speak in to all of these different struggles. But you know, as we found, it's actually there in the scriptures and it's backed up. The solutions are there, but in their. Backed up by brain science and psychology. And that's what we've laid out in the book.

Yeah, that's what I love. I love that the approach, and I think this is something that this book is going to, I know, absolutely help with, is that there's so many of us that think that these two things are separate, that the psychology and the sociology and even the biology of what we have going on in life and then the spiritual side, what scripture says, our relationship with the Lord. And I love any resource that can integrate those two. And what's awesome is like, you're doing that. You are not just saying like, hey, this is something that I think out there. This is just an observation. You actually have statistics, research showing that this stuff is actually happening. Not only the unpreparedness, as you're talking about, of people who are in ministry, but also the struggles. Like this is what's going on in someone's brain, this is what's going on socially in someone's life and being able to integrate that with spirituality. Our mutual friend, Rodney Wright, I always think of his, of his statement that like you look at emotional, mental, relational, spiritual, sexual, all of it, he's like, it is all spiritual. It is, we are a holistic being. And that's why I'm so excited that people can get this book because it's another resource that's working to integrate these two together in a way that sets you up for success moving forward.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah, I was just thinking about how that echoes my own experience of Bible college and seminary. And you know, you're taught to preach and understand scripture and all the history and lead the church. But then like mental, emotional health was kind of treated as this other thing that we, we took one counseling class on sort of. And I feel like basically the emphasis of the counseling class was, well, here's the overview. And then send people the counselors and just that disconnect there. To think that understanding the word of God doesn't really connect to people's. Mental emotional health. And it's like, wait a minute.

That.

That should be what if we're leading in the church, we're all equipped to do. And I think really this book, Ben, is an effort you guys are making to connect dots for people to help us understand how our faith and the word of God does relate to mental emotional health. And it's not something we need to then go off to a secular resource to. So one of those topics or a chapter in the book that I think really helps people see those common elements in their life. You talk about seven longings that we all have. So what are those longings? And talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, so there's. What Josh and I have discovered is that this is true in the Bible. It's also backed up by sociology and psychology and even neuroscience. But there are seven basic longings or persistent cravings and needs that every human being has. And it's things like attention, access, safety, affirmation of our feelings, appreciation. You know, there's all seven of them, but I won't go through all of them, but the two. I want to. I want to. Because, you know, we've got. In the book, we've got, like, detailed descriptions of them, how they play out in people's lives, what it looks like for them to be unmet, but essentially when they are fully met, and they were designed to be fully met by God and others in the Garden of Eden, you know, that perfect place we were created for, but we live on this side of Eden. So they go unmet, and worse, they're outright rejected. So what I want to mention is kind of like a foundational need. It's a foundational longing, and that's acceptance. To be known and understood with someone entering your world. Sorry, that's attention. That was the second one. Attention. To be known and understood with someone entering your world. And that's the opposite of isolation. That's somebody caring for you, knowing about your opinions, seeking to understand you, and us doing that with other people. And this deep satisfaction comes from that. I think of David in Psalm 139. 1. He says, oh, Lord, you have examined my heart and know everything about me. And God had a much more deeper relationship than something purely intellectual. With David. No, it was deeply emotional. They understood one another. They God knew his opinions, cared about him. And God has designed every human being to experience that through him and to experience that with one another. There's this deep belonging, this deep satisfaction that comes, you know, from that. But you think about when that doesn't go met. And so, so many people are lonely. They have a lot of friends. But loneliness is not, you know, a lack of friends. It's a lack of meaningful connection. It's a lack of that attention. And so many people grow up experiencing that and are isolated, and then what do they do with that? Well, we end up seeking it out in a different. Some kind of different way because we're wired to have that fulfilled in our lives. So that's one of the longings. Attention.

Yeah. Well, and like you said, you do cover all seven in the book. I think it's really, really insightful because it is that, that common ground. And it makes me think of what Kurt Thompson has said on our podcast, that we all come out of the womb looking for someone, looking for us, and it never ends. Like, like there's that longing to be seen, heard, validated, known. And sometimes I think our society treats those things as weak or, you know, kind of flimsy, like, oh, that's not a big deal, like, just toughen up. But, but really when we understand these are core to how we're made as human beings, it really can help us understand some of the problems we get into and when those longings aren't met, why we gravitate towards other things.

Yeah. So how do those longings connect with our unwanted behaviors? I mean, you know, you talk about anxiety and depression and things like that that can be associated with these longings not being met. But then when those longings are not met, we then move toward really what become unwanted behaviors. So how do those two connect, longings and our unwanted behaviors?

Yeah, there's a couple things I would say. First, I would throw out the stat that Harvard has been doing this study for years. I believe it's still going on. It's been about 80 plus years. And they were following graduates of Harvard and seeing what led to the greatest amount of health. So, like low disease and all of that and the greatest satisfaction. And the head of the study said that the greatest message we get from the study is that by and large, the people that are healthiest and happiest are the ones who have good relationships. So I would say 90% of what leads to a thriving and flourishing life. And the greatest amount of satisfaction is not money, it is not success, it is not fame, it is good relationships. Knowing God and knowing others in these longings being fulfilled. I think of Proverbs 4, 3, which says, above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. So all these longings we are trying to satisfy. It is flowing from our heart. They are God given longings. And if we are not finding them satisfied in healthy ways, we can't help it. We are going to sin. We are going to try and find them satisfied in unhealthy ways. So we say that the unmet seven longings start leading to unwanted behaviors. It could be a thought that is unhealthy, it could be a belief that's unhealthy. It could be inaction, just something we don't want. A behavior that we don't want in our life that we're trying to quit. I think about a couple of years ago when I was mentoring a guy and he was struggling with anger, he was struggling with depression, he was struggling with porn. And as we started to get into his life and start understanding that growing up, he didn't feel accepted, you know, one of his seven longings was significantly unmet. He didn't feel welcomed, he didn't feel loved. He didn't feel included for who he was by his parents. His grades were never good enough. He felt rejected. They said he was too emotional. He felt like he just didn't fit in. Like there was. It led to shame in his life, led to rejection rather than acceptance. So we started to put the pieces together and sure enough, every time he got really angry, every time he turned inward and got depressed, every time he went back to porn, it was because that he felt rejected. He felt not good enough. He just failed a test. And what that did in that moment was it triggered all of that past unmet longing of acceptance in his life. So no matter. So no wonder it was such a big trigger for him. Totally leading him to want to cope and feel some type of acceptance there in the present.

Yeah. You know, I just happened to run across a quote of yours this morning, Ben, from Our Sexual Integrity 101 series where you say, I discovered that pornography wasn't my problem, it was my pseudo solution. And that's what I hear you talking about, that these unmet longings lead us into behaviors that become kind of a false or unhealthy way to try to meet those needs. And until we connect the dots that, oh, I'm actually trying to fix something in an unhealthy way, we just kind of stay blind to that process. I think you're naming what a lot of people feel but have maybe never connected those dots to.

Yeah, and it's interesting too, because I think, you know, someone who maybe doesn't get attention might think, okay, you know, maybe it's because of the way I look or the way that my body looks. And so I'm gonna go to the gym, which isn't an unhealthy thing by nature. But eventually, over time, that can become the way to numb out and can become the way that they meet this need which becomes unwanted. So it's not that everybody who has these unmet longings goes to things that are, quote, unquote, morally wrong. But over time, those things can become wrong if they replace real relationship, if they replace really processing what we're feeling, what we're going through, and ultimately being able to take that stuff to the Lord. And so I think that because that's what I hear when I hear of unwanted behavior, I think of drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling. I mean, all the, like, the things. But it's not just those things. It can be even the beneficial things that we do just taken to an extreme.

Yeah. And that's why in the book, we go to great lengths to try and help people identify these things. And like that chart of 50 potential unwanted behaviors, it can even be good things like success. But we got to understand. Or even in ministry, ministry success. But we got to really question, am I doing this because it's part of my calling, and am I doing this in faith and trust in God, or am I doing it for myself because I want to get attention, because I want to be appreciated, because that has gone unmet in my life? And so we give so many different examples and stories of people. And that is really the hope of the book because, you know, a problem identified is a problem half solved. And I think, you know, it takes such great awareness and it is such a struggle. I know in my own journey, it was so hard to figure out, what are the problems? Why am I doing what I'm doing? And then how do I start to get to the bottom of that and fulfill those things and find true healing and freedom? Absolutely. Yeah.

So, Ben, as people are connecting the dots, they're understanding these unmet longings and the needs we all have, what does it look like, then, to pursue healthy ways of meeting those longings? As you said, identifying a problem might be half of it, but what about the other half of. Once I've identified, maybe someone who's listening realizes they've had a huge deficit in their life of acceptance. For them to just run out and try to get accepted by people could become very performance oriented or codependent, like, accept me, Accept me. So as we understand maybe where we have some deficiencies, what does it look like to Pursue health in those areas.

Yeah, there's a couple we talk about in the book. One is that we got to understand that our greatest acceptance is going to come through God, through Jesus. You know, I think about the difference between Christianity and every other major world religion. You know, every other major world religion teaches what so many of us are trying to do. It's do good things, perform, and eventually maybe a higher being will accept you.

Be good enough, go to heaven, be good enough for God.

But Christianity teaches that, you know, God is perfect and holy and just and other and, and no matter how hard we try, we can't perform enough or be perfect. But that's why God sent Jesus to live a perfect life for us. Die on the cross, raised, be raised to life. And now he freely offers us forgiveness so we can be accepted for who we are through Jesus just by asking for it and have that relationship with God and then understanding who we are as people. Made in God's image, loved by, by God, adopted into his family. He accepts us as we are, he delights in us, he values us. You know, that's the antidote for shame. There's a chapter called seeing yourself as God sees you in the book. And I really believe that it's going to help a lot of people. And we talk about things that are in the scriptures that we often don't talk about in church. You know, nowhere in the New Testament are Christians referred to as sinners. They're always referred to as saints. Yes, they still sin, but they've got a new identity. And we gotta focus on our sainthood because behavior follows beliefs. What are we believing about ourselves? Do we believe we're the righteousness of God? Do we believe that we've been forgiven, adopted, that he delights in us? You know, I know in my own life for years I struggled to live that out and to experience that. And I believe that I was just a worthless sinner that God tolerated. But that was not true. Love was what sent Jesus to the cross to die and redeem a relationship with me. So it starts with God, but then also with other people, with safe people. Another chapter in the book. We talk about all the one anothers throughout scripture. You know, there's over a hundred, I think it is in the New Testament, one another commands, love one another, confess your sins to one another, forgive one another, accept one another. And that's intentional. We're made in the image of God. God is triune. He's eternally existed in relationships. We need relationships too, not just with God, but we we need other people. That's crucial to thriving and flourishing. So safe relationships with people who can help meet these needs and longings and that we can meet them in their lives as well.

Yeah, it's just I feel like I've had some conversations probably over the last couple of years where some situation comes up, someone's struggling with something, and a common question that I get, or even I've heard myself ask is like, okay, what books are out there that can help me with this? You know, and obviously plug, plug, plug, Free to Thrive. Okay, that's the first one that should be on your list. But what I've realized is that we're quick to go to what book can I read, what verse can I memorize? And one of the things I've realized is we don't view other people as resources. And there's just this weird, like, this weird disconnect where I've ended up answering some of these questions by saying, like, well, here's this person I would talk to. Or here's this person I would start spending time with. Because, like. And I think I've heard you say this, Nick, before. And if it's not you, then you're welcome, because this is.

It probably is, if it's really good.

Yeah, it's you or Ben, probably.

Exactly.

But the idea that the way that we experience God's love also happens on the horizontal plane in relationships. So God does work in and through the people that are in relationship with us to show us that love and to show us that acceptance and to help us grow. And so I think just my encouragement off of that, and just something I've seen is that there does need to be an identification that other people are also a resource. We don't have to go to books or studies only. We can also go to those around us.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's amazing to me how that mindset, or what we might call a core belief about our identity, makes such a difference even in some of the same human interactions. Like, for example, if I'm living in an identity of shame, not being good enough, feeling like I don't measure up, and I do something, I preach or I help someone, and they say, you did a really great job at that. If my identity is in that shame, I might hear, well, they don't really know me, and if they really knew what I was doing, they wouldn't say that. Or they're only saying that to be nice because they feel like they have to. They didn't really mean it. And so all of it's going through this identity filter versus if I'm living in my identity in Christ and knowing who I am and believing I'm a saint who's been made new in Christ. And someone says, wow, you did a really great job. I can say, oh, thank you. Because there's not all these other voices that now change the dynamic. So I think it's really important that we realize if we're stuck in some of those places, even healthy relationships around us can be hard to accept because we're filtering them through this false sense of identity.

Yeah, absolutely. So, Ben, you talk about something in the book called the Wholeness Apologetic Model, which is just super rad. I just love that. What is the Wholeness Apologetic model? And how can it help us heal from the past hurts we carry?

Oh, yeah, the Wholeness Apologetic model. Man, I love that thing. That was years of research and figuring stuff out and like Josh and I and some others flew out to Beverly Hills and met with Henry Cloud for four hours. And that was part of developing it. And it was. I'm just so stoked on what God has done and how he's created it. But basically it's this whole. It's mentioned throughout the book and there's a diagram in there, but it's this whole model of God's original intent for creation, that we thrive when the seven longings are fulfilled in relationships with God and others, that knowing our value and who God has made us and having living out of those positive beliefs about who we are, of having healthy relationships without isolation of that, you know, we sin and struggle because of the fall and being born with a broken nature. But it is not just that there are other brokenness that happens in relationships, in living in a fallen world. And I think the seven longings. And also this next part I'm going to mention is one of the strong suits of it because as we're doing research, we're trying to figure out, does the Bible show anywhere where people sin, struggle, get anxious solely because of. Not solely, but because of. Significantly, because of unmet longings, because of trauma. And not just, you know, the sinful nature people are born with. And it was, you know, not many people could answer that question. But finally, as we were praying and seeking God for months and months and months, there was like this. This breakthrough moment that happened. And I started to see what had been there all along. And that's Job in Job three, he was so depressed after he lost his health, wealth, and his family that he wished he had never been born. I Think of David in 1st Samuel 24:25, when he is running from King Saul who's trying to take his life. He's so anxious, he's hiding in caves. And how many metaphorical caves do we hide in? Do we try and escape him? And so there's these whole cause and response actions, cause and response things going on all throughout the Bible. And that's what happens in our own life. We're hurt, we have unmet longings, and. And then we start developing some kind of struggle, some kind of anxiety, some kind of depression or cave, you know, to hide in. But the wholeness apologetic model talks about how Jesus and God and his design invites us to come out of those caves to discover what these unmet longings or what these unwanted behaviors are about. You know, ultimately these unwanted behaviors are signals, there are symptoms that we need to answer, you know, that God wants to bring healing and freedom to. And so we talk about how he can do that through relationships, through the one another, how he can do that in our relationship with him. We talk about neuroscientific research and principles, how we take our thoughts captive, how our brains can actually be rewired so that we get to a point where, like I have in my life, where certain things that used to make me anxious, certain things that used to tempt me anymore because my brain has been changed, because the deeper longings and needs have been met, and that has rewired my brain as the Holy Spirit, has brought true healing and freedom.

Yeah.

So what I hear you saying, Ben, about this wholeness apologetic model, and just let me know if I've kind of understood it correctly. It seems like if we only focus on who is Christ and what has he done, that's what we typically think of apologetics. And how do we explain it and defend it to describe it, all that. But the wholeness apologetic goes to another step as well, to say, what has it done in me? How has it restored my identity, value, worth, and it creating that wholeness in my life because of what Christ has done. So kind of connecting those dots for people, if you will, is that a fair description of it?

Yeah. And I would also add that, you know, apologetics just means to defend or support some aspect of truth. And wholeness is the opposite of brokenness. So what we are showing people, we're supporting what the Bible has been saying all along about true wholeness, this completeness that comes from God's design for our life in all areas. And of course that that's God's design, but he Also has a design for healing from brokenness. So those are all things that. That we explore and support, you know, through what the Bible's been saying all along. So.

Good.

Yeah. So, Ben, the million dollar question. Take some time and unpack for people. How do we thrive? And what does that look like? What does it mean to thrive? Now, don't give away the punchline of the book because we want people to buy it still, but give us enough of a nugget that people will say, man, I need to hear more about how I can thrive.

Yeah. Million dollar question. Does that mean that my honorarium for joining this is a million dollars?

Yeah. 100%. Yep.

That's not quite what I had in mind.

Oh, sorry. I don't oversee the budget here.

It means if you answer it really well, you'll sell enough copies that it'll be a million dollar income.

Amazing. Sorry, I got distracted by the million dollars. What was your question?

How do we thrive, man? What does it mean to thrive?

Yeah. So I would take it back to that Harvard statistic that most of thriving happens from good relationships. I think of how 90% of diseases still come from stress. A lot of stress has to do with isolation, what's going on in our minds. Loneliness is more deadly, they're saying now, than smoking 15 cigarettes a day. And so I would take it back to the Garden of Eden. If we look how God created us to have a relationship with him, to walk with God in the cool of the day, where it was not good that man was alone. So God created Eve because they needed one another to have a relationship, to be known and loved. So a relationship with God, a relationship with other people, and then a relationship with ourselves. Like, Adam knew his value. He knew that he was loved. He was made in God's image. So thriving happens as we seek the fulfillment of these seven longings in our relationship with God, in our relationship with others, and even in our relationship with ourself. Like, we can know we're accepted by God intellectually, but we can deeply believe deep down that we're not accepted, that we're worthless because of the unmet longings and experiences in our life. Or we can maybe, if we do believe we're accepted, we can struggle in relationships because maybe we have unsafe people in our life who are criticizing us, who aren't helping fulfill these seven longings. And maybe we're not fulfilling them in their life. It goes both ways. So as we become aware of the seven longings, of how they're going unmet, and take steps as the book lays out how we can do that, to have these fulfilled, that's what really leads us to start to truly thrive and to flourish. And that's most of our purpose in life, to know God, to make him known, to enjoy him, and to talk about Jesus and his redemption with other people.

Yeah, boy, think about that for a minute. You said loneliness being more detrimental to our health than 15 cigarettes a day. And yeah, I was just thinking about the billions of dollars that have been spent to educate people on the dangers of smoking, help people's mental, I mean, their health problems because of smoking. And like, we go all in. And yet really establishing healthy relationships may be a more beneficial step in our health. So, you know, listener, if you needed any more reason to get this book and make a little investment in your health, I think it's going to show you how to pursue those healthy relationships. And it's something we need to pay a lot more attention to because it's the lack of those relationship that is impacting us a lot more than we realize.

Yeah, I think, Ben, as you were sharing too, I think, and I'm not sure if you were making this point or not, but I see this connection between. We often pursue two of those relationships, but not all three. There seems to be one that's lacking, you know, for me growing up, my background, it was the relationship with self that was less important or almost sinful or wrong to have, you know, like self compassion. What is that? Don't justify your sin. Don't be kind to yourself. You know, or maybe, you know, I think of where the world is, maybe people who don't follow the Lord prioritize relationship with self, man. I feel like that's something that our culture screams, is that you should take care of yourself and you should do what's best for you. And then someone who also added to that has relationship with other people, but is missing that component of relationship with the Lord. And I love what you're, what you're presenting because those three really do flesh it out super well that those are all the aspects of life. And what I'm hearing you say is that we cannot thrive unless we have all three. We cannot thrive unless we have a healthy relationship, an ongoing relationship with the Lord, healthy, intimate, vulnerable relationships with other people, and then a compassionate and curious relationship with ourself, understanding and working toward a proper understanding of who we are.

Yep, that's exactly it.

Gosh, go buy the book. Like, this is a perfect reason, Ben. All right, quick transition, man, next month. You are one of our featured speakers at our Pure Desire Summit. Plug, plug, plug. We'll make sure the link is in the show notes. But, man, from your perspective, from what you're going to be talking about, why don't you tell people why they should go to the summit?

Oh, it's going to be amazing. I've been to the summit before and what you're going to find is speakers who don't just practice what they preach, but preach what they practice. People who have been through the wringer, people who have struggled in life, been through trauma, been through addiction and know their stuff and can not just speak from a theological degree or something or like that, but from personal lived experience. They really get it. So all the speakers, I think are going to be phenomenal. Not just talking about myself, but we'll talk about.

You're one of them.

Yeah, we'll talk about you.

I'm thinking about the other speakers, man, and stoked to hear what they have to say. And I know I'm going to be encouraged. I know you'll be encouraged. And then I would say too, there are just so many great breakouts that cover a wide array of topics. And then lastly, the relationships. You know, there is something about being in a room with so many people who get it, who get that we don't have it all together. We need these solutions. We've been through it, or we're going through struggles and it's just hard to come by something like this where you can really feel known and understood and get help, get encouragement. Or if you're going to, because you want to help somebody else, you're going to get all of that there at the summit.

So good.

Yes, you will, absolutely. Yeah. And get to hear Ben unpack some of these themes a little more in his session. So we hope you'll join us for that. Ben, let people know, where can they get their hands on this great book? Where do they go to buy it? And start diving into the themes we've been talking about today?

Yeah, the simplest place is freetothrivebook.com that's freetothrivebook.com right there. You can. It will link you to Amazon, to Barnes and Noble Christian book. Basically, wherever books are sold, the book is available. And then why don't you all share about the special that's going on and where people can get it, because we've got a special opportunity just for Pure Desire. Exclusive to Pure Desire. Pure Desire users. Pur Desire. Kingdom Builders.

Kingdom builders.

I love it.

I love it. Well, yes, Listener Ben's book is out today. And because you're listening to the episode, like we said, we have a deal. You can get 25% off Ben's book. New book, Free to Thrive today. If you go to store.josh.org puredesire we'll put that in the show notes that is store.josh.org Puredesire and if you use the promo code, Ben, so creative.

And that other guy's involved too, but.

Yeah, Josh McDowell's involved. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Josh. Josh McDowell. I don't know how to say his last name, but if you use the promo code ben@store.josh.org p Pure Desire, you get 25% off. And again, this book co authored with Josh McDowell, Free to Thrive, helps people who are stuck in unhealthy behaviors, thoughts and relationship patterns and connects those unhealthy patterns with unresolved hurts, shame and struggles. And really, to see how God interweaves all those things, Free to Thrive will help you see that God has so much more for you. As Ben already talked, it's going to help you see that thriving is possible. You can experience healing and wholeness. And I love this is that your struggles are not random. They are not random. They are signals that when answered, can lead you to a thriving life. So go get the book. Store.josh.org PureDesire Use the promo code BEN and get 25% off. Ben, we are super proud of the work that you're doing already and we're super proud of the work that you've done for this book. It's amazing just to watch what you do. I mean, just watch you lead vulnerably. And you, we know that you practice what you preach and you preach what you practice. We know that you're doing the hard work of recovery every single day. And we just anticipate all the things that God's going to do, how you're going to get used at the summit, how people are just going to learn so much from you. But man, we're just excited to continue the partnership of ministry with you. And we love you.

Yeah, I'm so stoked as well. Thanks for having me on the podcast yet again. I love you guys. You are great friends. You are the real deal. Love, pure desire. As you all know, God used it, I am convinced, to save my life. God has used this ministry to save my life and bring so much healing and freedom. Years ago, everywhere I go, when people ask me about counseling or if they are struggling with porn, I point them to Pure desire and basically say they are like the Dave Ramsey Financial peace, sexual wholeness in the church globally. And it really is true. I don't think. I don't think many people know just how much God is doing through Pure Desire, how effective your strategies are, and how many people are being rescued and healed every single day. So thanks for what y' all are doing.

Thanks, man. And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a road map for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to healing and freedom. And lastly, never stop being healthy.